CAV: Red Hulk (Lvenger) vs Injustice Superman (MonsterStomp)

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Lvenger

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#1  Edited By Lvenger

Welcome to this CAV! In this debate we have a slight twist on the old Superman vs Hulk formula. Instead of classic Superman fighting regular Hulk, we have the Red Hulk going up against an alternate version of Superman from the Injustice universe. Place your bets folks!

Red Hulk - @lvenger

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V.S.

Injustice Superman - @monsterstomp

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The Setup

When Batman's Insurgency group tries to bring the heroes from the doppelganger universe to aid them against the Regime, an unpredictable energy spike causes it to switch to the Marvel universe and randomly brings Red Hulk into Metropolis of the Injustice world. Rulk easily beats Regime forces and heroes sent to subdue him before being confronted by Superman himself. Cyborg and Flash evacuate the city leaving the gamma giant and the Tyrant of Steel to cut loose in a fight to the finish.

Rules

  • Standard 616 Red Hulk. No energy draining allowed.
  • Standard Injustice Superman. No Yellow Ring. Comic/game feats allowed.
  • In character but both are fighting at their best.
  • Win by any means necessary.

Location

Unpopulated Metropolis, Injustice Universe

No Caption Provided

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GhostRavage

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Oh boy. Tag. Jen's ass is the icing on the cake.

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deactivated-5ad4cb41c7fb8

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Tag meh.

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the_red_viper

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#4 the_red_viper  Moderator

She-Hulk's ass wins.

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Supermanforever

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@lvenger: You should put no yellow rin in the rules. because he got really strong amp from from lantern ring. Or is it allowed?

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Lvenger

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@supermanforever: Yeah I've put that detail in, Injustice Supes doesn't have his yellow ring here.

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MonsterStomp

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darthjhawk

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#8  Edited By darthjhawk  Moderator

Oh this is gonna be awesome, T4V

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Thor-Parker

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@lvenger: Lol, I know it´s messed up but your picture of Red Hulk looks like he´s about to force himself on Jen, such a psycho face.

Anyway, T4V.

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deactivated-5ebcd5ad9fb95

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Are Injustice 2 feats allowed? So far Supes hasn't been amped in the comics but if this CaV lasts a month he could get some nice feats. Also T4V.

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kgb725

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T4v

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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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#12  Edited By ThEBeStOfTheBeST

I wanna keep an eye on this debate, dis gun be gud.

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TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642

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AbelHsu

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T4V...

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mysticmedivh

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#15  Edited By mysticmedivh

T4V.

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MonsterStomp

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@major_hellstorm: I'm not going to wait a month so that Superman gets better feats. That's poor sportsmanship. I'll make due with what has been shown :)

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brucerogers

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Oooh me likey, please taggy

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Lvenger

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#19  Edited By Lvenger

@monsterstomp:

Red Hulk

No Caption Provided

"So if you're ready to fight, you'd better be ready to kill. Because if you're not going to kill, then you're going to lose."

Bio

For years General Thaddeus E. "Thunderbolt" Ross, hunted the Hulk, believing him to be a menace and a threat to the national security of America and the world. Eventually, Ross made a deal with a group of genius supervillains known as the Intelligencia who used the Cathexis Ray (the siphoned off gamma energy from Tony Stark's satellites that depowered the Hulk) to turn him into the Red Hulk. Initially a villain, Ross was later defeated by the Hulk and recruited to work for SHIELD and the Avengers where he fights for his redemption with the cost being no one will ever know who he is.

Ross possesses powers similar to the Hulk, namely superhuman strength, durability, endurance and an enhanced healing factor. He also retains his strategic, military mind when he transforms and he can transform at will. Unlike the Hulk the angrier he gets the hotter he gets, putting off more gamma-radiation in the form of heat energy. He also has a powerful energy absorption ability, but overuse of this power is dangerous and could eventually leave him without the ability to transform back into his human form. So Ross sparingly uses this ability in combat.

Strength

The trademark of any Hulk related character, Red Hulk's strength is his main choice of combat to go toe to toe with his foes. Rulk's striking feats are more impressive than Injustice Superman's from what I know of the character. He's beaten Abomination, a Savage Hulk level foe, to near death whilst levelling a nearby village as collateral damage in Hulk vol 3 #1.

Then Rulk easily KOed She Hulk in Hulk #2.

He's punched a robot called Omegex from Bar Harbor to Boston in Hulk #39, a distance of 200 miles if measured in a straight line (Edit courtesy of @citizensurfer)

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Furthermore, he's one shotted a comet that was heading for Earth in Hulk #26.

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As for pure physical strength, Rulk has some decent feats for that. He was using satellites and fighter jets like baseball bats against Iron Man in Hulk #2.

He can throw planes around casually.

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He's broken Doc Green's arm (Hulk #10)

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And he's broken free from Magneto's metal restraints (Avengers #28)

Injustice Superman may not be a slouch when it comes to brute strength but Rulk should be very capable of overpowering him in a toe to toe brawl.

Durability/Damage Soak

Another advantage Rulk holds over his alien foe is his superior showings at taking massive amounts of damage and continuing to fight through the pain. He's particularly good at withstanding blunt force and energy projection damage. Take this instance from Hulk #27-8 where he tanks multiple blows from Namor underwater without damage as his greatest concern was getting air.

He's shrugged off a 15 mile punch like it was nothing (Hulk #39)

He's tanked a She Hulk smash that broke the Lincoln face on Mount Rushmore.

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He's taken blows from Savage Hulk and Doc Green.

So his blunt force durability is pretty notable. As for energy/heat durability, he's been hit by monster fire and remained unharmed.

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He's tanked missiles and taken hits from weapons powerful enough to destroy regiments and battalions (For reference, a battalion is 300-800 soldiers and a regiment is 2,000-3,000 soldiers according to Wikipedia)

He's also tanked uni beams from Extremis Iron Man (Hulk #2) and an onslaught from Bleeding Edge Iron Man (Hulk #25-6) which are two of Iron Man's most powerful standard armours.

Whilst Red Hulk's durability is not as impervious as his greener counterpart (in the sense that he has been bloodied many times) he can take a lot of damage and keep on battling regardless. He has been shown vulnerable to piercing damage but Superman's main forms of attack are physical and energy based, which Rulk thrives on tanking. His damage soaking will be a valuable asset in dealing with the tenacious Man of Steel.

Why Red Hulk wins

Red Hulk may not bring as many powers to the table as Superman but what powers he does have are in spades. Rulk may be a pure brick next to Superman's well rounded powerset but he outclasses the Kryptonian in brute strength that direct combat would put Injustice Supes in great danger of being badly beaten. Plus his durability and damage soak will enable him to tank Superman's hits and carry on dishing out damage to outlast Regime Supes' constitution. Rulk can keep the battle up close and personal to prevent Superman from using his range, flight or speed to overwhelm him. I've only covered some of Rulk's physicals for my opener. I'll be providing further physical feats as well as his healing factor, tactical showings and more. For now, I look forward to your opener @monsterstomp best of luck mate!

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Lvenger

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CitizenSurfer

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@lvenger: Just a minor nitpick, Omegex wouldn't have travelled that route if he was punched by Red Hulk, It would have been a straight line.

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MonsterStomp

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#22  Edited By MonsterStomp

I fold.

Kidding! I'll formulate a counter tomorrow.

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Lvenger

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#23  Edited By Lvenger

@citizensurfer: I would have preferred you waiting till the end of debate to prevent interruptions but I appreciate the critique.

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CitizenSurfer

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@lvenger said:

@citizensurfer: I would have preferred you waiting till the end of debate to prevent interruptions but I appreciate the critique.

Yeah no worries.

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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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#25  Edited By ThEBeStOfTheBeST

Now that I have 3 days free from work - T4V.

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MonsterStomp

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#26  Edited By MonsterStomp

Superman [Injustice]

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Bio

What do you get when you give The Joker some fear gas, Kryptonite, and a nuclear warhead?.. you get one seriously pissed off Superman. A Superman hell bent on liberating the Earth of all violence by any means necessary to ensure world peace. A Superman who'd actually kill his own friends if they stood against him and his regime.

Injustice Superman is an alternate version of the Man of Steel, who lost his city, his wife, and his unborn child to the Clown Prince of Crime. In his despair, Clark's only hope to make sure this never happens again is to marshal a world-wide ceasefire. However, his efforts have been challenged by that of Batman and his insurgency, who only wish to restore the world to its former.

Injustice Superman retains the same powers and abilities as his canon counterpart, more specifically his superhuman strength, durability, and speed. However, due to the unfortunate events that occured in Injustice, Superman lacks the core moral values of that his counterpart possesses. This means he doesn't hold back as much, and is willing to kill.

Durability

That's an impressive showcase of Red Hulk's striking power, and I'd certainly concede that he has the potential to seriously harm Superman should he let his guard slip. Which is why I'm starting with a showcase of durability, since it makes no sense to compare which apple tastes better. Consider this opener a semi-counter argument :P

Superman is far from a slouch in terms of how much punishment he can take. Superman tanked Renee Montoya's hits without much issue, and held back while the effects of the overdose took hold.

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Superman shook off a punch from Doomsday that sent him from an unspecified location between Central City and Metropolis to Gotham City.

Albeit being momentarily knocked out isn't a clear-cut measurement of how durable one is, it should be noted that Captain Atom had already beat Superman within an inch of his life prior to this 7 megaton explosion.

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Superman takes a hammering from both Bizarro and Doomsday.

Lastly we have Superman being momentarily knocked unconscious by Hercules into outa space. Again, it should be noted that Superman had his ass handed to him by Wonder Woman in a fight to the death.

As you can see, Superman may not be as powerful as his mainstream version, but his durability shouldn't be undermined. Clark most certainly is capable of withstanding some of Rulk's medium to high level blows before succumbing to any serious injuries.

Speed

Coupled with his, at the very least adequate durability, is Superman's sheer speed advantage. In the following instance, we have Superman holding a conversation with Flash as time seemed frozen.

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Shortly after, Superman blitzed Kalibak's worldwide Parademon invasion.

This next scene is from the Injustice 2 video game, where Superman blitzes Brainiac's ship to try and breach the defences.

Loading Video...

Last but not least, we have Superman tag Flash. It should be noted that Flash was actually trying to dodge the punch.

Rulk's best punches have more than enough potential to put Superman down for the count, however, making his best hits actually land in full force is the challenge Ross will be facing.

Strength

Finally, we get to see what Superman is capable of offensively. In terms of raw strength, Superman has casually lifted a submarine.

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In a display of power against Aquaman's rule, Superman (alongside Hal, Billy, and Diana) lifted the city of Atlantis.

These feats of strength put Superman comfortably in the 100,000+ ton range, and that's lowballing.

Lets touch up on some of his striking power, since these are the one's that will actually count. During Superman's fight with Kalibak, Superman launched him high into the air with a punch. Based on the fact that Kalibak hit a passenger plane, we know that Kalibak was sent 30,000 - 40,000 (5.7 - 7.6 miles) feet into the air.

In the next instance, Superman kills Hawkman in a few punches. Note that Superman was suffering from Kryptonite poisoning and fainted shortly after this event.

Last but not least, Superman has outright casually broken Superboy's sternum.

Surprisingly, despite the amount of issues Superman has appeared in, there aren't many feats displayed on a regular basis however consistent. Regardless, we've seen what Superman is capable of when he's angry, weakened, and holding back.

Why Superman wins...

Clearly speed is Superman's main advantage here. Like you said, Red Hulk's best bet is the keep the fight close and personal, whereas Superman will get more out of keeping his distance and picking his moments. Clark's combination of flight and speed will ensure that he'll be able to capitalize on that strategy. Even if this tactic doesn't go quite to plan, I think I've provided sufficient evidence in the durability department to move that Clark is more than capable of taking a hefty amount of punishment before submitting to Red Hulk's blows. Moreover, Superman's speed will be crucial in helping him roll with those heavy strikes to soften the impact. In terms of what punishment Clark can deal in return, they may not be as powerful, but coupled with his sheer speed he'll certainly land at least 5 times more blows.

I think Rulk's best bet is to end the fight as quick as possible, because the longer the fight progresses, the more likely Superman will rely on his speed, and willingness to eliminate the threat before innocent people are harmed in their wake.

Good luck on your counterargument, @lvenger!

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Lvenger

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@monsterstomp:

Will try and have a counter up in the next couple of days.

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MonsterStomp

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@lvenger: All good. Take all the time you need :D

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Khael

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I honestly can't see Superman winning but good luck. ^_^

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pipxeroth

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Looking good. T4V.

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Helloman

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T4V

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Lvenger

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@monsterstomp:

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Counters

Injustice Superman's Durability vs Rulk's Striking

I'll start with durability as well since that was your opening section.

Superman is far from a slouch in terms of how much punishment he can take. Superman tanked Renee Montoya's hits without much issue, and held back while the effects of the overdose took hold.

I assume Montaya's overdose was on the Super Pills from Injustice which increase strength and durability to near Kryptonian levels? Decent feat although for the most part those enhanced by the pill haven't beaten Superman in a fair fight. Despite the awesomeness that is Alfred headbutting Superman, he was previously tired out and caught by surprise.

Superman shook off a punch from Doomsday that sent him from an unspecified location between Central City and Metropolis to Gotham City.

Again not bad although I'm not sure Central City and Gotham are further than 200 miles apart. Metropolis and Gotham are certainly not and I've shown Red Hulk punching a powerful robot 200 miles in a single blow so judging from how Superman took Doomsday's punch, that would do some damage to Clark.

Albeit being momentarily knocked out isn't a clear-cut measurement of how durable one is, it should be noted that Captain Atom had already beat Superman within an inch of his life prior to this 7 megaton explosion.

Although you may have a point adding in the context of the fight Superman had with Captain Atom prior to the 7 megaton blast, how much damage had Superman visibly taken beforehand? I'm not sure if Superman had been beaten to an inch of his life since Atom and Superman were portrayed as relative physical equals for most of the fight. Besides, Rulk's main form of attack will be blunt force

Superman takes a hammering from both Bizarro and Doomsday.

Mind if I ask how powerful Injustice Bizarro and Doomsday are? At least relative to Injustice Superman.

Lastly we have Superman being momentarily knocked unconscious by Hercules into outa space. Again, it should be noted that Superman had his ass handed to him by Wonder Woman in a fight to the death.

Indeed, that's something I'll cover later as well. So I'm guessing your point is Superman would have been able to tank that hit if he were at full strength and ready for it? I won't object to that

As you can see, Superman may not be as powerful as his mainstream version, but his durability shouldn't be undermined. Clark most certainly is capable of withstanding some of Rulk's medium to high level blows before succumbing to any serious injuries.

He may be able to tank some of Rulk's medium blows but we'll have to see about the high level ones. Regardless, Rulk's punching power is not to be underestimated either. His blows on Angrir caused tremors that could be felt by MODOK a mile under New York (Hulk #37) and caused mini shockwaves from the force of his blows (Avengers #14)

He's gone toe to toe with Colossonaut and knocked him away.

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He's one shotted a giant sea serpent that Namor was unable to punch through.

And he's sent the Sentry himself flying with a blow (Hulk Smash Avengers #5)

Outside of the Sentry feat, this is what I'd call Rulk's mid level striking power. As for his blows that have one shotted comets, stomped mid tiers like She Hulk and Iron Man and affected heavy hitters like Sentry and Doc Green, I'll need to see more of Injustice Superman's durability.

Speed

Coupled with his, at the very least adequate durability, is Superman's sheer speed advantage. In the following instance, we have Superman holding a conversation with Flash as time seemed frozen.

Shortly after, Superman blitzed Kalibak's worldwide Parademon invasion.

Ironically I'm usually on the speed side of the debate but here I'm on the opposite. Speed is undoubtedly a big factor in this debate and Superman does hold the speed card over Rulk. The Flash conversation and Parademon worldwide blitz are definitely great speed feats for Superman but there are two things that need to be considered. One Superman rarely if ever used this level of speed since in one on one battles in the comics or game. And two the Parademons are cannon fodder next to Rulk. Ross has the fortitude to tank Superman's blitzes.

This next scene is from the Injustice 2 video game, where Superman blitzes Brainiac's ship to try and breach the defences.

Interesting choice, I recall being impressed by this feat when I saw it. That is closer to a multi hit/after image speed blitz than a straight bullrush which I admit Rulk could have trouble tagging initially. However, it does appear to be FTE speed, not the street leveller variety though but more of the supersonic variety. I wouldn't call that hyperspeed which the mainstream versions of Superman have performed with ease.

Last but not least, we have Superman tag Flash. It should be noted that Flash was actually trying to dodge the punch.

It's hard to tell the full picture from those couple of panels. Was Barry surprised by Superman's move? Caught off guard? Because that would have affected his reactions if he wasn't expecting it.

Rulk's best punches have more than enough potential to put Superman down for the count, however, making his best hits actually land in full force is the challenge Ross will be facing.

Ross will have a tough time tagging Superman at superspeed for sure but I don't think it will be an impossible task. Ross is a tactician as well as a bruiser and will look to make opportunities to ground Superman. When he was 'captured' by a group of female heroes in Hulk #9, Rulk's first move to make his escape was to take out their flyers so they couldn't chase after him.

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I'm sure cars, trees and chunks of buildings can be weaponised by Rulk to try and bring Superman down. He can also leap pretty high as well.

  • Moves at blurring speeds whilst leaping.
  • Leaps onto the side of a building then jumps onto an alien ship.
  • Leaps into New York from Avengers Mansion.
  • Tags Doc Green mid leap (Hulk vol 3 #10)

So object throwing and leaping are two of the four ways I can see Rulk countering Superman's blitzes.

Striking vs Rulk's Durability/Damage Soaking

In a display of power against Aquaman's rule, Superman (alongside Hal, Billy, and Diana) lifted the city of Atlantis.

These feats of strength put Superman comfortably in the 100,000+ ton range, and that's lowballing.

I should have figured on the Atlantis feat. Well Rulk doesn't have a physical strength feat that compares with lifting Atlantis so physical strength goes to Superman. Luckily striking power counts for more in a fight between two heavy hitters.

Lets touch up on some of his striking power, since these are the one's that will actually count. During Superman's fight with Kalibak, Superman launched him high into the air with a punch. Based on the fact that Kalibak hit a passenger plane, we know that Kalibak was sent 30,000 - 40,000 (5.7 - 7.6 miles) feet into the air.

I was expecting you to cite the other Kalibak feat but I guess that's coming later. 7.6 miles is rather small compared with a couple hundred miles in terms of the distance Rulk and Superman have sent their opponents.

In the next instance, Superman kills Hawkman in a few punches. Note that Superman was suffering from Kryptonite poisoning and fainted shortly after this event.

Considering what Hawkman has tanked in the Injustice comic, it was notable for Superman to kill him whilst weakened by Kryptonite. However, Rulk has tanked hits from the Thing whilst weakened by Negative Zone energy (Hulk #19)

Last but not least, Superman has outright casually broken Superboy's sternum.

A nice one shot feat but Rulk is much more durable than Superboy and has a much better chance of fighting on with internal injuries. As I said Rulk's damage soak is ridiculously high. He's tanked hits from Ikaris of The Eternals whilst fighting in a volcano (Hulk #49)

He's withstood 3 brain blasts from MODOK where 2 brain blasts KOed Red She Hulk.

He's tanked attacks from Sentry and Wonder Man simultaneously and was still able to overpower them along with Ares (Hulk Smash Avengers #5)

And he's taken many hits from a ticked off Thor (Hulk #26)

Suffice to say Rulk has a major advantage when it comes to soaking up damage compared to Superman. Should that damage start to become fatal, he also has a healing factor, albeit slower than Hulk's. Nonetheless, this healing factor can heal his eyes when Wolverine gouged them out and healed him from a sword embedded in his chest (Avenging Spider-Man #2-3)

In summation

As you said, speed is Superman's main advantage in this fight. When he uses it, Rulk will struggle to tag him at first. However, Superman doesn't always use his speed as evidenced with his fights against Doomsday, Solomon Grundy or Kalibak. He might try to brawl it out with Rulk at first which will not be a sensible idea due to Rulk's physical advantages. Superman would immediately take damage from Rulk's striking power which would probably force him to play the staying away game. From there Rulk can keep up the offensive on Superman forcing him to evade rather than attack or use his tactical intelligence to force Superman to come in closer for an attack thus bringing the fight back up close and personal. Superman's strikes may be able to damage Rulk but I've shown there's a difference between hurting Rulk and putting him down and speed blitzes won't be enough.

Rulk has what it takes to end the fight quickly but he also has the damage soak to outlast his alien opponent and deliver the finishing blow.

Your turn again @monsterstomp

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SupremeGeneration

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T4V. Jen's ass wins, though.

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mickey-mouse

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RED HULK CAN'T LOSE FIGHTS LOLZ
RED HULK CAN'T LOSE FIGHTS LOLZ

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SirFizzWhizz

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T4V, like to see how this ends.

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MonsterStomp

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@lvenger: Sorry for the delay. I tried to do to much in my response and... shit just got confusing. Doing a few rewrites and scan compiling now. I'll have a counter up tomorrow at the latest.

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brucerogers

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@monsterstomp: Lvenger is banned for a week due to a pm misunderstanding. Just thought I should inform you.

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darkseid1006

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@monsterstomp: Yo Stomp I thought you'd thrown in the towel? Sure you've still got the fight in you big man? :P

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BullPR

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@lvenger: I don't think I ever seen you debating AGAINST sup.

Please T4V.

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MonsterStomp

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Counters

Superman's durability

Decent feat although for the most part those enhanced by the pill haven't beaten Superman in a fair fight. Despite the awesomeness that is Alfred headbutting Superman, he was previously tired out and caught by surprise.

I'm not entirely sure that I see your point here, would you care to elaborate? If you're questioning the effectiveness of the super-pills, I can assure you that there have only been 2 occasions where Superman has been fairly beat by them. The first instance was in Year 1 where, like you said, Alfred knocked a tired, unassuming Superman out. The second instance in Year 5 wherein Batman beat Superman fair and square.

The first instance is a little iffy for me, but the second instance (given the multitude of Superman's much higher and consistent showings) can be narrowed down to plot induced. Batman only took one pill, whereas Montoya took a handful and was capable of swinging the DC Monument like a baseball bat.

No Caption Provided

For reference, the DC Monument weighs over 81,000 tons (Fact 2: http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-might-not-know-about-the-washington-monument).

Again not bad although I'm not sure Central City and Gotham are further than 200 miles apart. Metropolis and Gotham are certainly not and I've shown Red Hulk punching a powerful robot 200 miles in a single blow so judging from how Superman took Doomsday's punch, that would do some damage to Clark.

We don't know if Metropolis is a neighbouring city to Gotham in this alternate reality. The fact that Superman was sent quite a distance upwards, and considering the trajectory being more horizontal than vertical upon landing, I doubt they're both set in the same vicinity.

Although we can't judge the distance between the two city's, there's still a distance to be gauged here. That distance being one of altitude. Now I know it isn't full proof, but I feel it safe to compare imagery from space stations to give an idea of how high Superman was sent.

A clearer image of Superman getting punched into the upper half of Earth's atmosphere
A clearer image of Superman getting punched into the upper half of Earth's atmosphere
Cygnus spacecraft docking with the International Space Station over Florida
Cygnus spacecraft docking with the International Space Station over Florida
Image from Skylab
Image from Skylab
Image from Mir
Image from Mir

For point of reference, Skylab is 235 kilometres from sea level, Mir is 358 kilometres from sea level, and the ISS is 400 kilometres from sea level. Take from that what you will (personally, all the images look familiar that high up), however, keep in mind Superman had to have experienced re-entry upon his decent back to Earth.

Although you may have a point adding in the context of the fight Superman had with Captain Atom prior to the 7 megaton blast, how much damage had Superman visibly taken beforehand? I'm not sure if Superman had been beaten to an inch of his life since Atom and Superman were portrayed as relative physical equals for most of the fight. Besides, Rulk's main form of attack will be blunt force.

Looking back over the issue, being "beat within an inch of his life" was an exaggeration. However, Superman was at the very least exhausted from his fight with Captain Atom.

Mind if I ask how powerful Injustice Bizarro and Doomsday are? At least relative to Injustice Superman.

You can count the number of appearances both have had on one hand, to be honest. For Bizarro--Lex stated that aside from his lack of intelligence, Bizarro is a spitting image of Superman. Bizarro has easily survived temperatures of 25 million degrees Fahrenheit, while only saying its warm. Both Superman and Bizarro have had a brief encounter where both seem to match each other blow for blow. Bizarro had the upper hand against Doomsday to the point where Superman had to interfere.

As for Doomsday--Well, he shrugged of re-entry. Sent Superman flying into orbit with a punch. Doomsday was depicted as Superman's physical equal during their fight. Doomsday took advantage of a distracted Bizarro and crushed the life out of him literally.

As for his blows that have one shotted comets, stomped mid tiers like She Hulk and Iron Man and affected heavy hitters like Sentry and Doc Green, I'll need to see more of Injustice Superman's durability.

You have me beat here. However, just like your argument for Superman not operating at his best speeds all the time, Rulk doesn't exactly employ his best striking capabilities off the bat either.

Speed

One Superman rarely if ever used this level of speed since in one on one battles in the comics or game. And two the Parademons are cannon fodder next to Rulk. Ross has the fortitude to tank Superman's blitzes.

I don't have an issue with your argument here. Both are good points that I'll rectify in my conclusion.

It's hard to tell the full picture from those couple of panels. Was Barry surprised by Superman's move?

In part, yes. Both were in a heated argument. Superman was pissed because Barry saved Bruce and felt betrayed. Clark attacked Barry, but missed and went through the wall. Then Clark flew back and got a lick in.

No Caption Provided

So object throwing and leaping are two of the four ways I can see Rulk countering Superman's blitzes.

Solid showcase all-round. I won't dispute that Rulk will never tag Supes, because he will, especially in the early stages of the fight. However, these showings don't hold a candle to what Superman is capable of if he really puts it on.

Rulk's durability

Luckily striking power counts for more in a fight between two heavy hitters.

Its not necessarily the only thing that counts. In all honesty, if push comes to shove and Superman has no more options, I don't see why he couldn't take Rulk for a little dance in zero gravity or hold him underwater. He's not opposed to doing so, and if Clark does get into a grappling contest, he's more likely to win given his superior strength feats.

7.6 miles is rather small compared with a couple hundred miles in terms of the distance Rulk and Superman have sent their opponents.

I whole-heartedly agree. However, speaking of durability 7.6 miles is a hell of a lot closer to the mere 15 miles Rulk shrugged off. Here's hoping that enough of these heavy hits will start to wear Rulk down.

He's withstood 3 brain blasts from MODOK where 2 brain blasts KOed Red She Hulk.

I'm curious, roughly how powerful is MODOK, and what form of attack was he using in this instance?

Summary

I stand firm on my previous argument, which is pretty self-explanatory.

"I think Rulk's best bet is to end the fight as quick as possible, because the longer the fight progresses, the more likely Superman will rely on his speed, and willingness to eliminate the threat before innocent people are harmed in their wake."

It isn't in character for Superman to utilize his super-speed, at least not off the bat, during head on encounters. Although, under the same token it isn't within Rulk's character to employ his heaviest hits in the beginning stages of a fight either. This is where Superman hold's the advantage, because as the fight progresses, he'll learn more about Rulk than Rulk will about Superman (especially with super-speed not in the equation yet). This is when Superman will likely play it safe and from a distance.

Superman's strikes may be able to damage Rulk but I've shown there's a difference between hurting Rulk and putting him down and speed blitzes won't be enough.

Speed blitzes will be essential if Superman plans to pick his moments from a distance. He'll be able to get in and get out faster than Rulk can react, and dial the amount of damage dealt to 11.

And as I said earlier, if push comes to shove, Superman won't be opposed to atmospheric BFR, and even that's extremely quick.

No Caption Provided

@lvenger I'll wait for your response.

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Purposely havent read the CaV yet, but total tv4. Interesting one.

Good Luck all!

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@monsterstomp: Great response man, my ban's lifted so I'll respond tomorrow ASAP.

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@monsterstomp:

No Caption Provided

Counters

Durability

I'm not entirely sure that I see your point here, would you care to elaborate? If you're questioning the effectiveness of the super-pills, I can assure you that there have only been 2 occasions where Superman has been fairly beat by them. The first instance was in Year 1 where, like you said, Alfred knocked a tired, unassuming Superman out. The second instance in Year 5 wherein Batman beat Superman fair and square.

The first instance is a little iffy for me, but the second instance (given the multitude of Superman's much higher and consistent showings) can be narrowed down to plot induced. Batman only took one pill, whereas Montoya took a handful and was capable of swinging the DC Monument like a baseball bat.

For reference, the DC Monument weighs over 81,000 tons (Fact 2: http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-might-not-know-about-the-washington-monument).

Yes I was questioning the effectiveness of the Super Pills and I have to say you've answered my query admirably. I was only talking about characters who had used one pill but you've shown there's a clear difference between them and Montoya after overdosing on the pills. Tanking a hit from the Washington Monument swung like a baseball bat is pretty impressive.

However, I remain confident in Rulk's superior damage soaking abilities compared with Injustice Superman's. One of Rulk's best examples of this is his fight against Angrir in Avengers #14. For those who don't know, Angrir is The Thing wielding one of The Worthy's hammers during Fear Itself which boosted his power dramatically. Rulk went up against Angrir and took a hell of a beating. He takes multiple hammer strikes, energy blasts and Avengers Tower collapsing on top of him yet is still able to continue fighting before being eventually overpowered.

We don't know if Metropolis is a neighbouring city to Gotham in this alternate reality. The fact that Superman was sent quite a distance upwards, and considering the trajectory being more horizontal than vertical upon landing, I doubt they're both set in the same vicinity.

Although we can't judge the distance between the two city's, there's still a distance to be gauged here. That distance being one of altitude. Now I know it isn't full proof, but I feel it safe to compare imagery from space stations to give an idea of how high Superman was sent.

For point of reference, Skylab is 235 kilometres from sea level, Mir is 358 kilometres from sea level, and the ISS is 400 kilometres from sea level. Take from that what you will (personally, all the images look familiar that high up), however, keep in mind Superman had to have experienced re-entry upon his decent back to Earth.

I doubt I need to check your referencing since those satellite distances from sea level sound about right. Assuming Superman was punched as high as the ISS' position, that would have sent him 248 miles before crashing in Gotham City so the total distance should be in between 250-300 miles. Not too bad. But Rulk has a feat which trumps that one. After Angrir had beaten Rulk to a pulp, he blasted Ross out of New York City at 700 mph sending him to Victory State Forest, 287 miles away from Manhattan as the crow flies.

No Caption Provided

Now this did knock Rulk out but he had already taken a huge amount of damage from Angrir prior to this hit. Moreover, if this is what it takes to knock Rulk out, I struggle to see Injustice Superman defeating Rulk through sheer force.

Looking back over the issue, being "beat within an inch of his life" was an exaggeration. However, Superman was at the very least exhausted from his fight with Captain Atom.

Sounds reasonable enough, I can agree with your interpretation.

You can count the number of appearances both have had on one hand, to be honest. For Bizarro--Lex stated that aside from his lack of intelligence, Bizarro is a spitting image of Superman. Bizarro has easily survived temperatures of 25 million degrees Fahrenheit, while only saying its warm. Both Superman and Bizarro have had a brief encounter where both seem to match each other blow for blow. Bizarro had the upper hand against Doomsday to the point where Superman had to interfere.

As for Doomsday--Well, he shrugged of re-entry. Sent Superman flying into orbit with a punch. Doomsday was depicted as Superman's physical equal during their fight. Doomsday took advantage of a distracted Bizarro and crushed the life out of him literally.

I see, not much in the way of feats but for all intents and purposes meant to be physical equals to Injustice Superman. That's all I wanted to know.

Rulk's Striking

You have me beat here. However, just like your argument for Superman not operating at his best speeds all the time, Rulk doesn't exactly employ his best striking capabilities off the bat either.

A fair point, I can admit Rulk doesn't use his best blows off the bat either. However, if Ross thinks Injustice Superman is dangerous enough, he will stop holding back and go all out against the Kryptonian. Rulk may have turned to the side of the angels after being beaten by Hulk but he's still a soldier at the end of the day and soldiers are trained to put their enemies down by any means necessary. Rulk's striking power would definitely finish Injustice Superman off if Clark gets careless not using his speed. One example of Rulk's best striking feats is from Hulk #3 where Rulk pummels A Bomb hard enough to cause 9.0 & 10.0 Earthquakes on the Richter scale. It was later revealed that this triggered the San Andreas fault line.

Credit to @thedailybagel for the original argument:

To illustrate how powerful that is, the seismic moment of an Earthquake is the total energy, whereas the seismic waves only contain 1-10% (source: http://alabamaquake.com/energy.html). In this case, the seismic moment is Rulks punch, and after some googling we can work out to some degree how powerful that is...

I (TheDailyBagel) highlighted the important parts, and the energy Rulk was packing is ridiculous. 19 billion Hiroshima bombs compacted into a fist is a ridiculous amount of energy.

Thanks to this analysis, Rulk's Earthquake punches can be shown for the impressive feat that it is. But Rulk has a better striking feat than that. During his second fight with Doc Green in Hulk #14-15, Rulk and Doc Green were punching each other so hard that their impact could be felt all over America, in the Mole Ground's underground kingdom and even off the Eastern seaboard. Rulk also KOed Doc Green at one point in the fight, the same Hulk who'd been tanking continental hits from Rulk.

And Rulk had his energy absorption ability turned off by a special bullet made by Doc Green so that was standard Rulk who was hitting hard enough to shake a continent.

Speed

In part, yes. Both were in a heated argument. Superman was pissed because Barry saved Bruce and felt betrayed. Clark attacked Barry, but missed and went through the wall. Then Clark flew back and got a lick in.

Now I see the full scan in context, I can concede this is a good speed feat for Supes.

Solid showcase all-round. I won't dispute that Rulk will never tag Supes, because he will, especially in the early stages of the fight. However, these showings don't hold a candle to what Superman is capable of if he really puts it on.

I can see what you've got planned for your final section so it's a good thing I held off on posting my last counter against speed blitzing.

Further Durability Counters

Its not necessarily the only thing that counts. In all honesty, if push comes to shove and Superman has no more options, I don't see why he couldn't take Rulk for a little dance in zero gravity or hold him underwater. He's not opposed to doing so, and if Clark does get into a grappling contest, he's more likely to win given his superior strength feats.

I'm not sure where the nearest supply of water is in Metropolis but I don't think Clark will be likely to drown Rulk in this fight. Orbit is the more likely destination, which I will deal with in that part of this reply.

I whole-heartedly agree. However, speaking of durability 7.6 miles is a hell of a lot closer to the mere 15 miles Rulk shrugged off. Here's hoping that enough of these heavy hits will start to wear Rulk down.

Here's to hoping then since I can show exactly what's needed to wear Rulk down and it is a lot of heavy hits.

I'm curious, roughly how powerful is MODOK, and what form of attack was he using in this instance?

He's fought classic Captain Marvel and Iron Man fairly evenly so he's decently powerful. He was using his brain beams which I've already shown two shotting Red She Hulk but they've also knocked Iron Man around, hurt Abomination and been used to blast through a mountain top.

Speed Blitz BFR Counters

It isn't in character for Superman to utilize his super-speed, at least not off the bat, during head on encounters. Although, under the same token it isn't within Rulk's character to employ his heaviest hits in the beginning stages of a fight either. This is where Superman hold's the advantage, because as the fight progresses, he'll learn more about Rulk than Rulk will about Superman (especially with super-speed not in the equation yet). This is when Superman will likely play it safe and from a distance.

I must disagree, Rulk has fought Superman clones in the Marvel universe before; namely Sentry and Hyperion. Rulk is also a competent tactician as he was seen giving out orders to the Avengers when they invaded Utopia.

No Caption Provided

So I would say both will learn plenty about the other's abilities. Superman will see Rulk as a greater physical threat than Doomsday and Rulk will see that Superman has powers akin to those of Sentry or Hyperion.

Speed blitzes will be essential if Superman plans to pick his moments from a distance. He'll be able to get in and get out faster than Rulk can react, and dial the amount of damage dealt to 11.

And as I said earlier, if push comes to shove, Superman won't be opposed to atmospheric BFR, and even that's extremely quick.

It feels kinda strange to be arguing against speed blitzes but that's the hand I've been dealt with in this debate. For one, Rulk has tanked blitzes from Sentry and Hyperion (whilst weakened against the latter) so he should be able to handle Injustice Superman's blitzes.

As for atmospheric BFR, that would allow Superman to win since Rulk cannot breath in space. However, Rulk has a way of preventing that; thunderclaps. He's dispersed a tornado with a thunderclap in mid air so I can see this being used against a bullrush from Superman.

They also have a large AOE. In this instance, Rulk knocks about a dozen or so robots back in a single thunderclap.

And when fighting against a foe called Black Fog who was stated to be moving too fast, Rulk resorted to a thunderclap to succesfully tag him.

I see no reason why Rulk couldn't do to Injustice Superman what Hulk did to Gladiator if he's getting BFRed.

Your turn @monsterstomp

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T4V

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don't see how this doesn't end the same way every other supes vs hulk ends...

supermanspeedblitz LAWWWWWWl