CAV: Raimi Spider-Man (Subline) vs MCU Spider-Man (BOC) - [SUBLINE WINS]

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#1  Edited By subline

Sam Raimi's Spider-Man (@subline)

No Caption Provided

Kevin Feige's Spider-Man (@boc)

No Caption Provided

Rules

  • MCU Spider-Man will be using his Upgraded Suit from Far From Home
  • Regular Suit for Raimi Spider-Man
  • In Character
  • Basic Knowledge / No Prep
  • Standard Win Conditions

Location

START 50 FEET APART AT TIMES SQUARE (THE AREA WILL BE UNPOPULATED)
START 50 FEET APART AT TIMES SQUARE (THE AREA WILL BE UNPOPULATED)

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tag for BOC's post, not Limes

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BladeOfFury

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T4V please

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eslay03

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#6  Edited By eslay03

TAEP. Thanks.

Also, did I see someone posting that this was bait and then he deleted his post...

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Edgelord91

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TAEP

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Shinne

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Sub, are you serious? How? Welp, I said I've retired from live-action debates, but I don't mind reading this kind of CaV.

TAEP, but I can't promise I will vote. I guess I'll see 'how' in your opener. You have a lot of explaining to do.

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ProphetYashawn

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TAEP pls

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JaylinFreeman

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#11  Edited By JaylinFreeman

Ooooh TAEP please

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TAEP please

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Post #1

No Caption Provided

Intro

Before I get started, I should go over my general thoughts on this battle. I believe both Spider-Men here are relatively equal in terms of strength, though Sam Raimi's Spider-Man has the advantage when it comes to all other physical attributes, whether that be striking power, durability or agility.

A huge factor in this fight is combat skill and experience, Raimi's Spider-Man has operated as a hero for years, and has taken out the likes of Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Venom and more. While the MCU incarnation has little to no victories under his belt, and is often caught making dumb mistakes and relying on his tech to get him out of pressuring situations.

To keep this post as concise as possible I'll be using little few feats in this first post, but feats which I deem the most impressive per each category.

Also just for convenience I'll be referring to Raimi Spider-Man as Tobey, and MCU Spider-Man as Holland.

Strength

I said both characters were pretty close in terms of pure strength, I believe there's only one feat needed to prove this, that being a showing from Spider-Man 2 where Peter stops a falling metal structure, lifts it and tosses it away:

No Caption Provided

Scaling from MJ, the wall seems to be approximately 10 meters wide and 7 meters tall, it appears to mostly be composed of steel girders and a huge section of it is solely steel, for reference, a single cubic meter of steel is approximately 8 tons, even without taking a precise calc, the total amount of steel Peter lifts and throws is at least a couple times more than a meter cubed just going by it's size visually.

That puts the structure at approximately 20-25 tons of mass, though Peter didn't just lift this (quick note: the gif is also cropped, Peter holds the structure above his head for much longer in the actual scene), he threw it quite a considerable distance away, which should at least cement him in the triple digits of tons, even if it's just barely.

Striking Power

Putting Holland down obviously isn't going to be easy, his durability is very good, and while based off Tobey's general striking feats, one may struggle to visualize him putting down Holland. This is why we can scale to how Tobey fared against his former opponents, particularly the two Goblins (Norman and Harry Osborne).

Durability: MCU Spider-Man vs The Goblins

The best feat to establish the durability of the Goblins is the following feat from Spider-Man 3, Harry takes a Pumpkin Bomb to the face at point blank range, and survives it with scars, but no lasting injuries, he's even condition to fight the day after:

No Caption Provided

It also should be noted that he took this Bomb right after having his Glider (which can do stuff like this) smash into his face.

Back on to the Pumpkin Bomb, to put the feat into perspective, we saw in the first film that Pumpkin Bombs were capable of destroying huge chunks of concrete, and if you pay attention you'll also notice that the Bomb shakes the entire surrounding area, as you can see that even at ground level the floor is being shaken despite the bomb being thrown at a balcony much higher up. I believe this feat definitely puts the Goblins on par with Holland, durability wise.

There's no need for me to post separate durability feats for Norman, it should go without saying that they are relatively equal physically, given Norman also has a more protective suit we can at least say he's equally durable to Harry.

Striking Power: Spider-Man vs The Goblins

Peter has three fights against The Goblins that express how good his damage output is, those being:

  • Spider-Man vs Green Goblin Final Battle
  • Spider-Man vs New Goblin First Battle
  • Peter Parker vs Harry Osborn Mansion Fight

Just to avoid complications I'll avoid using the last fight mentioned, since Peter had the Symbiote in the fight.

Link to Spider-Man vs Green Goblin Final Battle:

After taking an extensive beatdown from Norman and a Bomb to the face, Peter starts to return the favor, and delivers a beatdown for a good 50 seconds or so, to the point where Norman is forced to surrender as his demise from here was inevitable.

Link to Spider-Man vs New Goblin First Battle:

During this battle, it's quite a back and forth, both give and take hits, but ultimately, Peter is able to utilize environmental awareness, causing Harry to crash into unconsciousness. The encounter puts Harry into a coma for a good while and even gives him temporary memory loss.

Durability

I think I've established that Tobey definitely has the damage output to put down Holland, I don't think the opposite is true at all. Raimi Spider-Man's durability is insane, and he's taken attacks which far surpass Holland's best feats.

I just went over how powerful Pumpkin Bombs are, and how impressive it was for Harry to take one albeit being scarred and KO'd, let's compare that to Tobey, he took a Pumpkin Bomb right next to his face just like Harry... yet was completely fine to fight after it, he was still conscious and very much able to fight, he wasn't too dazed either:

No Caption Provided

This isn't the only feat of this caliber though, in Spider-Man 3, after tanking repeated hits from Venom, Peter is pinned down and hammered repeatedly by Giant Sized Sandman, Peter is back on his feet around 50 seconds after the beatdown and in fighting condition with no visible injuries, once again to put this into perspective we see during the beatdown that each hit was shaking the entire city block, as the ground beneath the huge crowd and the reporters was trembling.

Speed / Agility / Spider-Sense

Despite his larger build, Tobey is easily as fast and agile as Holland's Spider-Man, especially his perception speed, and I'd argue that his Spider-Sense is also superior.

Starting off with Peter's speed, in the first ever use of his powers we already get some insane feats, to start off we see his perception of the world, the most impressive part of this segment being how he perceives the flapping wings on the fly, they flap approximately once per each second. To put that into perspective, to a regular human, we perceive a fly's wings flapping approximately 200 times per second (a simple google search can tell you this). This feat alone establishes Tobey as hundreds of times faster than any regular human.

Later in this scene, we also see him perceive Flash's punch in slow motion, he has time to look around at his arm while it's essentially stuck in a position in his perception:

No Caption Provided

There's also various instances of Peter weaving around and dodging gunfire:

As for agility, well Tobey's got tons of showings in and out of combat of weaving around and fitting through extremely tight spaces:

Skill / Experience

Obviously Tobey has a massive advantage here, while Holland's version of the character is only 16 years old and has very little experience in crime fighting, Tobey's has operated as Spider-Man for years.

  • He's cleared through large groups of fodder with ease.
  • Defeated the Green Goblin who has a Glider that can fly at very high speeds and also has an assortment of ranged weaponry.
  • Defeated Doc Ock who has auto responsive tentacles that can rip off bank vault doors.
  • Defeated Sandman in the right conditions, using the water around the area to make him flaccid.
  • Defeated New Goblin on more than one occasion, who is essentially Green Goblin but with improved Tech.
  • Defeated Venom using his knowledge of the Symbiote from his prior use of it.

While you may be wondering how exactly we can compare how competent the two Spider-Men are, we can look at the general portrayal of these characters, logically Tobey would obviously be the better fighter given he has much more experience, but he's also got a much better track record which I've just laid out, comparing this to the 16 year old MCU Spider-Man, who has little to no victories under his belt, just to list a few:

  • Was defeated by Cap due to his lack of environmental awareness
  • Was unable to effectively stop a group of bank robbers with Chitauri Guns
  • Was defeated on numerous occasions by Vulture
  • Was reliant on his Webs to defeat Shocker
  • Was defeated by Star-Lord using nothing more than a Bolas
  • Was unable to deal with a horde of Outriders - relied on his Iron Spider Tentacles.

The only real victory he has is against a bunch of Drones, in a tight space, but it doesn't help that he still has no victories against any actual opponents.

Furthermore we can just look at fighting style in general, Tobey consistently uses everything he has, strikes as well as his webs while Holland in most fights we've seen so far goes for a Web Incap, which just won't work here as:

  1. It's not guaranteed he'll even be able to Web Tobey up.
  2. It's unlikely the webs are going to restrain Tobey.

Conclusion

While Holland's Spider-Man has the better Suit, and the better Tech, his actual application of what he has isn't very effective. Tobey is just as strong, and definitely hits hard enough to put down Holland given his showings against The Goblins, while the opposite just isn't true, Holland really lacks striking feats, since he really has no chance in a straight up fight given his inexperience and clumsiness in comparison to Tobey, he'll be reliant on Web Incap as he always does. Something which isn't going to be the most effective, given that I don't believe these Webs can even tag Tobey given his feats, and I also doubt they can restrain him. Or he would at least need a ton of Webbing to restrain him for good, something which just seems very improbable.

Holland is essentially going up against a much more experienced, skilled and competent version of himself.

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ProphetYashawn

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Damn what a dope opener.

If the rest plays out anything like this than I'm insanely excited for the rest of the CAV to unfold.

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Very impressive opener.

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TAEP

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Post #1

No Caption Provided

Introduction

To start us off, I’d like to say that I consider this fight to be very close. And my opponent has well demonstrated why. Tobey Maguire’s Spider-Man is a serious opponent. While I disagree with some of his claimed advantages, I am more than willing to agree on the following: I think Raimi Spider-Man does hold a small durability and endurance advantage, as well as combat experience.

However, Tom Holland’s Spider-Man undoubtedly holds a strength and gear advantage, the latter even compensating for his lack of combat experience. We see repeatedly throughout his films that the AI tech built into his suit is capable of helping him in dangerous situations. You pointed out how incompetent Holland was at times, but making mistakes was a clear part of his arc in ‘Homecoming’. Which led to this great scene. The moment Peter really grew up. Where he learns to overcome his reliance on external help. The moment he became... Spider-Man. After learning that valuable lesson, he isn’t nearly as bad as he started off as. His AI becomes a bonus, instead of a crutch. A bonus he has learned to use very effectively. So while he doesn’t have as many wins under his belt, he is far from incompetent on the field.

Also, like my opponent, I will refer to MCU Spider-Man as Holland and Raimi’s as Tobey, for convenience.

Now on to the fight:

Loading Video...

The Battle

I'm sure many don't like to read long CaV posts, so I'll try to be brief and extend in following posts when needed.

Strength seems to be where we disagree the most. Firstly, I think it was clear in the film that the beam Tobey threw was aided by Doc Ock’s machine (kinda forgot the name of it), which was actively absorbing its surroundings. You can tell by Tobey’s face, while he has it on his back, that it’s a struggle just for him to hold it. He certainly isn’t going to be throwing it overhead, several meters right after by his own strength. Holding up the beam with difficulty is something I could see Holland doing at age 15 during ‘Civil War’ and ‘Homecoming’. Let alone Holland as of ‘Far From Home’ where he gets this insane feat. Holding up a massive tower like that is easily in the 300 ton range. What’s even more insane about this feat is that he only required two webs to hold it. Making his webs extremely durable, to the point where I can’t see Tobey breaking them.

Speaking of webs, Holland has no shortage of variety. His suit in ‘Homecoming’ had 576 possible web combinations. Including web grenades, rapid fire, taser, splitter, and ricochet webs. Taser webs could prove especially dangerous to Tobey, as I don’t recall him ever encountering an attack like this, to know how he would fare.

Now, for Tobey’s damage output. Scaling his striking to his fights with the Green Goblins is enough for me to understand that he hits pretty hard. However, Holland is no easy opponent to put down. He was taking hits from Shocker, who could do this. Took a backhand from Giant-Man, and more. I don’t want to get much into Holland’s striking vs durability because, as I’ve said, Tobey is extremely tough. However, you pointed out something true about Holland that would pose a threat to Tobey here:

while Holland in most fights we've seen so far goes for a Web Incap

He’s more of a web-em-up kind of guy. Avoiding Holland’s range attacks, handling his speed, and managing to close in is going to prove difficult for Tobey. As previously mentioned, I can’t see Tobey breaking one of Holland’s webs, let alone multiple. If Holland manages to land his webs, that could very well be the end of the fight. Tobey isn’t winning a strength match here, as he attempts to pull Holland in. And he isn’t escaping; certainly not quickly. The problem for Holland would be landing them. However, not a very challenging problem in my opinion. Stuff like his ricochet, web grenades, and splitter webs will be very helpful. As well as a (significant) speed advantage. Oddly enough, Raimi’s Spider-Man has never really proved the speed to time an arrow, let alone a bullet. I do think Tobey is quite fast, based on dodging Goblin’s blades, but he really pales in comparison to Holland being able to dodge a high-caliber bullet from this close. Obviously I’m not arguing Holland can statue Tobey, but handling the former’s speed will be a tough task. The feats you brought up for Tobey “bullet timing” just seems like standard aim-dodging to me. Swinging around too fast, and agile so the thugs can’t hit him. Or moving quickly on the top of a car, predicting the bullets with his Spidey-sense. We’ve seen characters like Batman perform a similar feat to the latter. As for the argument around the fly; I think this speaks more to Tobey’s perception while using his spidey-sense, than to his movement speed. We never actually see Tobey move this fast, so it’s probably safer to assume the former.

Another attribute of this fight that I find interesting is agility. While I think Holland holds a small advantage based on doing more wall runs, jumps, and crawls in his fights, I don’t think either have enough to really help. Both are incredibly agile. If I need to extend on that, I will.

Conclusion

This will be no easy fight for Holland, but his advantages in gear, speed, and strength ensure he is victorious. Stuff such as dodging bullets, holding up a tower, and having strong enough webs to hold up said tower (that come in multiple different forms) show some clear advantages. What Holland lacks in combat experience he makes up for in his safe web-em-up strategy, as well as an AI he’s used on multiple occasions. How I see the fight going is the two swinging around, while Tobey tries to close in and Holland uses his webs more offensively. Tobey may succeed in getting close and doing damage, but Holland's speed and strength ultimately give him the win via incapacitation.

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RF tier essay

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#26  Edited By subline

Post #2

No Caption Provided

Recap

So far there's been a lot of points we both agree on, and hence won't be further debated, we both seem to agree that Holland will rely on his Webbing here, something you basically stated and hence posted no striking feats for him. So the focus of this post will be countering Webbing. Aside from this, we also seem to disagree on strength, while I believe the two characters are physically close, you seem to believe Holland has a distinct advantage.

MCU Web Strength

I still stand by Holland's Webbing being incapable of restraining Raimi Spider-Man, the feat you posted for the Webbing was the tower feat:

he gets this insane feat. Holding up a massive tower like that is easily in the 300 ton range. What’s even more insane about this feat is that he only required two webs to hold it. Making his webs extremely durable, to the point where I can’t see Tobey breaking them.

Two Webs to support the 300 ton tower, so one Web per 150 tons. This doesn't change the effect of this battle honestly, I'm absolutely sure Tobey's Webbing could support 150 tons. A comparable feat is Tobey catching a fully loaded 19 Ton Cable Car. Obviously this is only around a quarter of the weight that a single strand Holland's Web supported, however Peter didn't just support the weight of the Cable Car, he caught it after it was dropped from 15 meters or so.

I performed a calculation here using an Online Calculator and the final value came out to be 141 tons. Since I used an Online Calculator, the risk of human error is zero, the only possible faults with the Calc are the values inputted, and I think all the values I used are very fair, but if you have an issue with any of them. That can be discussed.

Back on topic, the Green Goblin was strong enough to rip through not just a single Web, but an entire wall of Webbing with ease:

No Caption Provided

Moments later, Norman is overpowered by Peter in a contest of strength and ragdolled a few meters away:

No Caption Provided

So if the weaker Green Goblin can easily rip through a large amount of comparably tough, Tobey is gonna have no trouble escaping Holland's webbing.

Web Combinations

Taser Webs

Taser Webs aren't going to be of much use here, you based their effectiveness of a false assumption, that being that Tobey has never taken any sort of Electricity Attack, when in fact he has, this is what you said:

Taser webs could prove especially dangerous to Tobey, as I don’t recall him ever encountering an attack like this, to know how he would fare.

Like I said, you recall incorrectly, in Spider-Man 2 during the Final Battle, Tobey pulls the Cables out of a machine and takes a point blank Electricity Blast and gets up instantly. Given that these cables powered up this machine that was designed as somewhat of a containment field for a Renewable Energy Source that was a threat to the entire city of New York, I doubt Holland's Taser Webs are more powerful.

No Caption Provided

Other Web Types

Web Grenade / Ricochet Webs:

Nothing really much to say in regard to these two, I've already established Tobey can break out of Webbing so they don't really pose much of a threat.

Rapid Fire:

Rapid Fire Webs aren't going to be helpful for a Web Incap, they appear to be more of an improved version of Web Bullets than a type of Web you'd use for Incap, I mean with Webs of this size I don't see how they can even Incap someone in the first place:

No Caption Provided

So these really aren't the most useful, especially considering that Tobey probably won't even feel them given how durable he is.

Splitter Webs:

Why would Holland even use a Splitter Web? The Web separates into two so it can latch on to two targets, what's the logic behind using this on a single opponent? The two webs spread apart quite a bit aswell so only one of the Webs would latch on to Tobey.

Furthermore, the Splitter Web isn't used to incapacitate a target, it's used to latch on to a Target that Holland can then ragdoll, that is literally how it's used in the GIF you provided and that is also why the Web only covers a very small area (on the targets' torsos in this instance):

No Caption Provided

Physicals

Strength

While I said all I believed was necessary to prove a parity of strength between these two characters was the feat of lifting and tossing a metal structure, but I did also say I'll bring out new feats if necessary, and thats what I'll do here just to establish consistency.

Strength seems to be where we disagree the most. Firstly, I think it was clear in the film that the beam Tobey threw was aided by Doc Ock’s machine (kinda forgot the name of it), which was actively absorbing its surroundings.

You're really overestimating the power of the Machine's magnetic field, from the distance Tobey was, we see a steel beam right behind Tobey that doesn't move an inch:

No Caption Provided

And this is only just a single steel beam, obviously dozens of times lighter than an entire wall of steel. If it couldn't pull in this beam, I doubt it was strong enough to effect such a heavy structure from such a distance.

Peter definitely threw it, to invalidate this showing you also said:

You can tell by Tobey’s face, while he has it on his back, that it’s a struggle just for him to hold it. He certainly isn’t going to be throwing it overhead, several meters right after by his own strength. Holding up the beam with difficulty is something I could see Holland doing at age 15 during ‘Civil War’ and ‘Homecoming’.

So are we just going to ignore that Peter had caught the wall right before this? The wall was about to fall on MJ before Peter catches it, this would obviously strain Peter and hence why he may have struggled to keep it up. This certainly lines up with his consistent strength level a lot more, like the the Cable Car feat mentioned earlier which would have required near 141 tons of strength with a single arm.

Let alone Holland as of ‘Far From Home’ where he gets this insane feat. Holding up a massive tower like that is easily in the 300 ton range.

The cable car feat is honestly better, given the Calculation performed earlier, it would require 141 tons of force with a single arm, compare this to Holland's feat:

  1. Holland uses both of his legs and both of his arms
  2. Holland is unable to keep the 300 ton tower up, he only manages to slow its fall

Holland's Durability:

Now, for Tobey’s damage output. Scaling his striking to his fights with the Green Goblins is enough for me to understand that he hits pretty hard. However, Holland is no easy opponent to put down. He was taking hits from Shocker, who could do this. Took a backhand from Giant-Man, and more. I don’t want to get much into Holland’s striking vs durability because, as I’ve said, Tobey is extremely tough.

Nothing really much to add here, you seem to concur with my points in regards to damage output. While I can see Holland having a slight durability advantage over the Goblins, it's nothing significant, given you didn't give your clear opinion on his durability compared to the Goblins, I'm not sure of your stance here. Though I'm sure you'll agree in your second post that the durability of the Goblins / Holland is comparable, else it's something I'll address in my final post.

Speed

Oddly enough, Raimi’s Spider-Man has never really proved the speed to time an arrow, let alone a bullet. I do think Tobey is quite fast, based on dodging Goblin’s blades, but he really pales in comparison to Holland being able to dodge a high-caliber bullet from this close. Obviously I’m not arguing Holland can statue Tobey, but handling the former’s speed will be a tough task. The feats you brought up for Tobey “bullet timing” just seems like standard aim-dodging to me. Swinging around too fast, and agile so the thugs can’t hit him. Or moving quickly on the top of a car, predicting the bullets with his Spidey-sense. We’ve seen characters like Batman perform a similar feat to the latter.

I didn't explicitly state the showing was bullet timing, as Tobey isn't clearly shown perceiving the bullet, but it's about as legit bullet timing as the instance you posted for Holland.

No Caption Provided

Spider-Man is directly above the Thief, and the Thief is shooting directly upwards, furthermore Peter moves his head after each bullet is fired. I don't see how this resembles the showing from Batman, that's a clear aim block, when the scene cuts to Batman he already has his hand in front of his face. While in Tobey's showing, he is shown to evade after every single bullet is fired and he's definitely in the line of sight of them.

Conclusion

While my strategy remains perfectly viable - a more skilled and experienced fighter just beating down Holland like he did with the Goblins (all points you have conceded), your strategy relies solely on the condition that a Web Incap will be enough to end this battle. However as I've shown Peter is more than capable of easily ripping through comparably tough Webbing, Taser Webs won't be effective either given the Durability feat I provided. This leaves you with no other Win Conditions (as you yourself, said that Holland will rely on his Webbing).

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Loving this cav, very good debate. Tag for votes.

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Made a small edit to the calc with permission

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Post #2 - Rebuttal

No Caption Provided

The Battle - Chapter 2

Similarly to my opponent's last post, our main disagreement seems to be strength. I'm fine with agreeing that Holland is comparably durable to the Goblins. While that means that Tobey can put down Holland fairly quickly, the problem would be Tobey getting close enough for that. Which I mentioned in my previous post and didn't really notice a counter for. If Holland is actively staying at range (as his tactics entail) how is Tobey going to close the gap? After 'Homecoming' and with the help of his AI, Holland is far from incompetent. Add a speed advantage (which will be addressed later) and a strength advantage (making Tobey incapable of webbing Holland and pulling him in) I don't see how Tobey achieves this.

You brought up the cable car feat and calculated it to show how durable Tobey's webs are, but in doing so you've only demonstrated why Tobey being capable of breaking his own webs is an outlier. I think it's pretty clear in just about all of his other showings that Tobey is no where near a '141-tonner'. Certainly not casually as you are arguing. Even the feat you brought up in your opener (which I assume you thought was his best at the time) he clearly struggles to hold a wall that you calculated at 20-25 tons:

That puts the structure at approximately 20-25 tons of mass

He also struggles to break Venom's webs, which were failing to hold up the vehicle Mary Jane was in at times. Furthermore, he struggles to stop the train in his famous scene. Which was calculated at only 46 tons. Seeing as Peter passes out of exhaustion after performing this feat, I think it was clearly near his limit. I've found NW to be reliable in his calcs, but if you have a disagreement there we can extend.

The feat you brought up to counter Holland's taser webs is a nice catch. Didn't remember that, and I'm fine with accepting it. However, it doesn't really affect my overall argument. You didn't counter his web grenades or ricochet webs landing, because you assumed Tobey could easily break out of them. Hopefully I've proved why Tobey is not going to be breaking webs that can hold around 150 tons, certainly not with ease. Meaning we can move on to whether or not they can land before Tobey closes in. Curious for your argument behind it. Not sure what you meant in your counter to Holland's rapid fire webs. They clearly expand at the end. While one may not be enough to incapacitate him, that's the point of rapid-fire. Multiple would be shot in rapid succession. Multiple of them landing is what provides the problem of escaping. As for splitter webs, I meant those would be useful in overall combat, not incapacitation. Holland frequently uses webs to fling objects at his opponents. Splitter webs could be useful in flinging two objects at once, to create a better distraction. This is just a possibility, however. Since Tobey is durable enough to tank thrown objects, Holland may use them as a distraction instead, to aid his incapacitation strategy.

While I said all I believed was necessary to prove a parity of strength between these two characters was the feat of lifting and tossing a metal structure, but I did also say I'll bring out new feats if necessary, and thats what I'll do here just to establish consistency.

Here you didn't really bring up any new feats apart from the cable car earlier in your post. You brought up a point that Doc Ock's machine didn't absorb the beam on the floor, but I think that's just a clear editing mistake. In fact, the wall only falls because large parts of it were absorbed by the machine (scene). Furthermore, Tobey undeniably struggled just to lift the beam on his back. Even says to MJ "this is really heavy." How is he then going to toss it overhead with less difficulty, several meters, without some external aid? Why shouldn't we just assume Doc Ock's machine (which actively absorbs it surroundings) helped, as to maintain a consistent intent?

So are we just going to ignore that Peter had caught the wall right before this? The wall was about to fall on MJ before Peter catches it, this would obviously strain Peter and hence why he may have struggled to keep it up.

Why would we need to ignore that? The wall isn't falling that fast. Him catching the wall is still consistent with him struggling to hold it. You also argue here that catching the wall strained him, so he was weaker when holding it up; but you also argued that Peter then throws the wall, seconds later, which would require a lot more strength. If he was strained, how does he perform a much better feat right after?

I didn't explicitly state the showing was bullet timing, as Tobey isn't clearly shown perceiving the bullet, but it's about as legit bullet timing as the instance you posted for Holland. Spider-Man is directly above the Thief, and the Thief is shooting directly upwards, furthermore Peter moves his head after each bullet is fired. I don't see how this resembles the showing from Batman, that's a clear aim block, when the scene cuts to Batman he already has his hand in front of his face. While in Tobey's showing, he is shown to evade after every single bullet is fired and he's definitely in the line of sight of them.

This is still what I would consider aim-dodging. Cuts in film can often represent an overlap in time. Meaning Peter dodging and the thief preparing to shoot could happen concurrently. Whenever we have scenes like this, I think it's far safer to assume that they do, as to avoid highballing characters. Which is why we don't call peak humans like CW Mr Blank bullet timers. It makes more sense for Peter to dodge before the thief shoots anyway, since he has his spidey-sense to warn him before hand. This is unlike Holland's feat, where we can see both the gun and Holland - and we can observe that Holland moves after the bullet is shot. This is also the reason I don't use Holland's hallway feat from the end of 'Far From Home'. Because there's a chance it could be aim-dodging.

Conclusion

I pretty much stand by all my previous points except the taser webs' usefulness, which wasn't necessary in the first place. With strength, speed and gear advantages, MCU Spider-Man overcomes the tough Raimi Spider-Man. Despite less combat experience, Holland's AI and safe strategies ensure he will make the best use of his advantages. With his insanely durable webs, incapacitation remains a viable win condition here. As well as durable, his webs come in a helpful variety that makes landing said webs a small challenge - certainly when factoring in Holland's speed.

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#36  Edited By subline

Post #3

No Caption Provided

Intro

This post will be my shortest one out of the three, since most points have been fully addressed on both ends by now. You've agreed with Holland having comparable durability to The Goblins, which leaves only one thing really to be debated, that being Webbing.

the problem would be Tobey getting close enough for that. Which I mentioned in my previous post and didn't really notice a counter for. If Holland is actively staying at range (as his tactics entail) how is Tobey going to close the gap? After 'Homecoming' and with the help of his AI, Holland is far from incompetent. Add a speed advantage (which will be addressed later) and a strength advantage (making Tobey incapable of webbing Holland and pulling him in) I don't see how Tobey achieves this.

I don't see how this wasn't addressed, the basis for Tobey being unable to close in are Holland's speed advantage, and Holland's strength advantage, two topics which were addressed thoroughly in my previous post, as I said repeatedly I don't think Holland holds any sort of marginal advantage in either of these categories.

The only thing I didn't address was Holland's competency, which I didn't feel needed to be debated further, considering you already conceded that Tobey is the more skilled and experienced combatant. You also claimed that a specific moment in Spider-Man: Homecoming lead to a complete 180 in his combat ability, specifically what you said was:

His AI becomes a bonus, instead of a crutch. A bonus he has learned to use very effectively. So while he doesn’t have as many wins under his belt, he is far from incompetent on the field.

First off I find it highly questionable that Peter getting the willpower to escape such a dangerous situation is going to lead to Mastery of his Suit and AI, the two events are completely unrelated. The situation he was stuck in had nothing to do with his Tech, in fact he did not even have the Suit in that instance, but on top of this, you also completely ignored two instances of Peter's incompetency / weak track record, both of which happened after this moment in Homecoming which you pointed out. Those two instances being him losing to Star-Lord within moments and getting overwhelmed by Outriders (there aren't the only instances, he proved quite useless against the Elementals throughout Far From Home aswell), as well as still only having an established victory against drones.

Tobey's Strength

You brought up the cable car feat and calculated it to show how durable Tobey's webs are, but in doing so you've only demonstrated why Tobey being capable of breaking his own webs is an outlier

Since you seemingly have no complaints with the actual calc performed itself, this section will obviously be revolved about consistency (your rebuttal to the feats I presented, as seen above).

I think it's pretty clear in just about all of his other showings that Tobey is no where near a '141-tonner'. Certainly not casually as you are arguing. Even the feat you brought up in your opener (which I assume you thought was his best at the time) he clearly struggles to hold a wall that you calculated at 20-25 tons:

Once again though, Peter tossed this wall, this is something we've been debating, but I've noticed that you addressed my rebuttal to your claim that Doc Ock's Machine aided Tobey in tossing the wall later in your post, so I'll counter that later.

Throwing a 20-25 ton wall is certainly no anti feat for Peter's Cable Car catching feat, according to the same people who did the Train Calc you used in your post (and whom you've stated you find reliable), this wall feat would definitely put Peter in the multiple triple figure range in terms of tons.

He also struggles to break Venom's webs, which were failing to hold up the vehicle Mary Jane was in at times.

Venom's Webs were not consistent at all, as you've said, they were failing to support a standard police vehicle with a single passenger, yet right above they were supporting an 11 ton Truck for a while (even though they broke eventually just like the ones supporting the vehicle). The most logical explanation for this is that Venom set up his Webs intentionally to not support the vehicles for an extended period of time, giving Spider-Man a specific time limit in which he'd have to come to Venom / Sandman and attempt to save MJ.

Even the second feat you mentioned doesn't line up with this (stopping the Train - 46 Ton Feat), if Peter is a 46 tonner at max (per you), he should never struggle to break out of Webbing that is unable to support a vehicle around 40 times lighter than 46 tons.

Regardless I don't find any of these representative of his consistent strength level, I've gave potential context for the Venom feat (I believe it's more logical to take an approach that retains consistency as long as the explanation for the feat happening is logical, in this case Venom rigging the Webbing). And I also believe that there is context to the Train Feat which you brought up:

Furthermore, he struggles to stop the train in his famous scene. Which was calculated at only 46 tons. Seeing as Peter passes out of exhaustion after performing this feat, I think it was clearly near his limit. I've found NW to be reliable in his calcs, but if you have a disagreement there we can extend.

Just to clear this up first, I don't have an issue with the calc. However a topic that's been neglected here is Peter's power struggle throughout Spider-Man 2, we see in numerous instances that Peter loses his powers only for them to be working later (his Web failure primarily), for a good portion of the film he actually completely loses his Powers. It's certainly plausible that Peter was not at his peak performance level during this feat, I mean it is the first time he uses his Powers after not having them for a good few days. This once again, would retain consistency.

Regardless, even if we are to take these two showings you used as legit, with no context around them, you have two showings that are outweighed by the amount of showings that are vastly more impressive than these two:

  • Catching the Cable Car with One Arm (141 Ton Feat)
  • Tossing the Metal Structure
  • Overpowering Green Goblin:
    • Green Goblin can rip through Webbing that can catch the Cable Car (141 Ton Feat)
    • Green Goblin can easily carry around the 19 Ton Cable Car with a single arm (just lifting it with one arm is enough to make him a casual 38 tonner, carrying it around should at least be a bit better, certainly invalidates Peter struggling so much and passing out from a 46 ton feat).

Metal Wall Feat:

Here you didn't really bring up any new feats apart from the cable car earlier in your post. You brought up a point that Doc Ock's machine didn't absorb the beam on the floor, but I think that's just a clear editing mistake. In fact, the wall only falls because large parts of it were absorbed by the machine (scene). Furthermore, Tobey undeniably struggled just to lift the beam on his back. Even says to MJ "this is really heavy." How is he then going to toss it overhead with less difficulty, several meters, without some external aid? Why shouldn't we just assume Doc Ock's machine (which actively absorbs it surroundings) helped, as to maintain a consistent intent?

Why would we need to ignore that? The wall isn't falling that fast. Him catching the wall is still consistent with him struggling to hold it. You also argue here that catching the wall strained him, so he was weaker when holding it up; but you also argued that Peter then throws the wall, seconds later, which would require a lot more strength. If he was strained, how does he perform a much better feat right after?

I don't see how anyone can compare a few thin steel beams to an entire massive steel wall / structure, you can see in the Gif below, that the wall is never nudged even slightly throughout the process, it falls as a result of the many things that were previously supporting it being pulled in, the actual wall itself never moves:

No Caption Provided

As for Peter struggling to lift it, we have to consider that he caught the metal wall as it was falling, which would be considerably more straining than just holding it overhead, additionally he doesn't struggle nearly as much as he does when he tosses it. When he's lifting it, he claims it's heavy, but is still able to hold it for around a minute as well as engage in a converation with MJ, his facial expression seems to remain relatively neutral aswell. When he tosses the wall, he screams out loud and was visibly struggling a lot more given his facial expression, clearly putting a lot more effort into this.

Web Combinations

The feat you brought up to counter Holland's taser webs is a nice catch. Didn't remember that, and I'm fine with accepting it.

Cool

You didn't counter his web grenades or ricochet webs landing, because you assumed Tobey could easily break out of them.

Tobey being able to break out is a counter, and something I still stand by.

Curious for your argument behind it. Not sure what you meant in your counter to Holland's rapid fire webs. They clearly expand at the end. While one may not be enough to incapacitate him, that's the point of rapid-fire. Multiple would be shot in rapid succession. Multiple of them landing is what provides the problem of escaping.

My point was that they are too small to incapacitate an area large enough to be significant, regardless Webs so small aren't going to hold, it won't be difficult for Tobey to break them given the Green Goblin scaling. Additionally, I also said they seem to work similarly to Web Bullets, while they expand at the end, this will be no use if Tobey can dodge them. Considering Tobey can dodge bullets point blank, he'll have no trouble with a much slower projectile.

As for splitter webs, I meant those would be useful in overall combat, not incapacitation. Holland frequently uses webs to fling objects at his opponents. Splitter webs could be useful in flinging two objects at once, to create a better distraction. This is just a possibility, however. Since Tobey is durable enough to tank thrown objects, Holland may use them as a distraction instead, to aid his incapacitation strategy.

Tanking the thrown objects isn't the only counter, Tobey can also dodge them given his speed (soon to be addressed). He could also deflect the objects, he's even encountered a similar situation before, when Doc Ock throws two large metal clock hands at him, and he kicks them while in mid air:

No Caption Provided

Speed

Only one thing here to address:

This is still what I would consider aim-dodging. Cuts in film can often represent an overlap in time. Meaning Peter dodging and the thief preparing to shoot could happen concurrently. Whenever we have scenes like this, I think it's far safer to assume that they do, as to avoid highballing characters. Which is why we don't call peak humans like CW Mr Blank bullet timers. It makes more sense for Peter to dodge before the thief shoots anyway, since he has his spidey-sense to warn him before hand. This is unlike Holland's feat, where we can see both the gun and Holland - and we can observe that Holland moves after the bullet is shot. This is also the reason I don't use Holland's hallway feat from the end of 'Far From Home'. Because there's a chance it could be aim-dodging.

I would concur with what you're saying if not for a specific detail in Peter's aim dodging, your example with Mr Blank is once again quite different from Peter's showing. We see Laurel fire the shot, then the scene cuts to Mr Blank moving and then the shot hits the wall, we never see Mr Blank concurrently move with the bullet that's been fired, unlike in Peter's showing, we see each gunshot and we see Peter move:

No Caption Provided
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Conclusion

Once again, my strategy remains viable, Tobey can beatdown Holland as he did with the Goblins, the focus of the debate at this point is Tobey's Strength, and whether he can break out of Webbing / Physically Contend with Holland, which is being debated through consistency, I believe I've given sufficient evidence to suggest that Peter's Cable Car Feat is legit, and Goblin ripping through the Webbing is legit, as the anti feats posted are outweighed by the amount of better feats that don't line up with this, as well as there being potential context around the feats you posted - something which would maintain consistency rather than us having to call outliers. Either way you look at it, Tobey is Holland's physical peer, and Tobey can break out of his Webbing. The two points which break your argument entirely.

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Post #3 - Closer

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The Battle - Final Chapter

As agreed on Discord, my opponent's previous post was his last, and this post will close the debate. Overall a short CaV, but I think we both got our main points across, since we started the debate agreeing on several aspects. Now, for some counters:

I don't see how this wasn't addressed, the basis for Tobey being unable to close in are Holland's speed advantage, and Holland's strength advantage, two topics which were addressed thoroughly in my previous post, as I said repeatedly I don't think Holland holds any sort of marginal advantage in either of these categories.

Speed and strength are not what makes this task difficult. It's the nature of closing in on someone who's actively trying to stay at range. Even by your claims, you haven't argued for a speed advantage in Raimi's favor, or how his strength helps in this task. Holland is going to be swinging around, trying to keep his distance, and using his ranged attacks for an incap. A strategy even you claimed he would do in your first post, and never disagreed with in the following. If both combatants were even equal in speed (which will be addressed later), closing in on someone using a tactic like this is inherently difficult. I don't think you've given any reason as to how Raimi achieves this, and instead relied on incapacitation failing, which I will get to shortly.

You also claimed that a specific moment in Spider-Man: Homecoming lead to a complete 180 in his combat ability, specifically what you said was: First off I find it highly questionable that Peter getting the willpower to escape such a dangerous situation is going to lead to Mastery of his Suit and AI, the two events are completely unrelated. The situation he was stuck in had nothing to do with his Tech, in fact he did not even have the Suit in that instance

Not at all. I argued that it's narrative purpose was to demonstrate Holland becoming more independent, and growing in maturity. Which is true. It doesn't make him a master tactician, it simply means he won't make a ridiculous mistake like he previously would have, to cost him the win here. Something clear in the film.

on top of this, you also completely ignored two instances of Peter's incompetency / weak track record, both of which happened after this moment in Homecoming which you pointed out. Those two instances being him losing to Star-Lord within moments and getting overwhelmed by Outriders (there aren't the only instances, he proved quite useless against the Elementals throughout Far From Home aswell), as well as still only having an established victory against drones.

I don't see how losing to Star-Lord highlights his incompetence. It's simply a feat for Star Lord and his gear. The Outriders were overwhelming everyone at one point, from people with insane stats like Hulkbuster to incredibly skilled combatants like the Super Soldiers. Their speed and numbers were clearly a serious threat. His showing against the Elementals really only proves my point. He did there exactly what I claimed he would do here (stay at range, go for an incap, throw objects, etc.) Only difference being that he literally could not touch them, due to them being holograms. A problem that obviously isn't present here, making it irrelevant. Furthermore, I don't see how claiming his only victory is against drones has any relevance either. Not only did that battle still require strategy on Holland's part, but he's repeatedly demonstrated the strategy needed here to win. How many wins he has, especially against named characters, is irrelevant here. You'd have to prove that Holland is going to make a mistake that is detrimental to his victory, in the majority of circumstances. Something that is certainly not the case.

Throwing a 20-25 ton wall is certainly no anti feat for Peter's Cable Car catching feat, according to the same people who did the Train Calc you used in your post (and whom you've stated you find reliable), this wall feat would definitely put Peter in the multiple triple figure range in terms of tons.

No, but struggling to hold 25 tons on your back certainly is. The calculation for the throw was under the impression that Doc Ock's machine didn't aid Tobey, and it was entirely his strength.

As for Tobey struggling to break Venom's webs, I can agree that it's a low showing. Originally I thought Peter's position was part of the problem, but the webs being inconsistent in the first place is a fair point. Still, I think the anti-feats outweigh the triple-digit ton feats Tobey has.

Just to clear this up first, I don't have an issue with the calc. However a topic that's been neglected here is Peter's power struggle throughout Spider-Man 2, we see in numerous instances that Peter loses his powers only for them to be working later (his Web failure primarily), for a good portion of the film he actually completely loses his Powers. It's certainly plausible that Peter was not at his peak performance level during this feat, I mean it is the first time he uses his Powers after not having them for a good few days. This once again, would retain consistency.

I mean, you consider a feat in this movie to be one of his best, by far (throwing the metal structure.) I doubt he wasn't at his peak by now. Him being able to hold 46 tons is far from being incapable of even forming webs, or getting badly hurt from a relatively small fall. I think it was clear in the film that Spider-Man at this point had his powers back. Normally I'd agree with making assumptions of context to rationalize anti-feats, but in this case I feel there is a severe lack of intent behind his better feats anyway. Writers rarely calculate their feats, so I doubt they knew that catching 19 tons made Tobey a casual '141-tonner'. The two best feats you brought up (catching it and Goblin breaking the webs) rely on that intent. So while I can't say for certain that they didn't intend this, I think there's enough probable cause for us not to assume context for feats that contradict. As to avoid either of us making assumptions like these, it's best we just compare the feats as is.

Now, on to the "feats vs anti-feats":

Tossing the Metal Structure

Will be addressed later, but I stick by my claim of Doc Ock's machine aiding him here.

Green Goblin can easily carry around the 19 Ton Cable Car with a single arm (just lifting it with one arm is enough to make him a casual 38 tonner, carrying it around should at least be a bit better, certainly invalidates Peter struggling so much and passing out from a 46 ton feat).

Eh, I don't see why being able to hold on to 19 tons means that lifting 25 tons won't be heavy. Catching the wall is even a bit more impressive. I also don't see how this contradicts 46 tons being his peak, when considering the position Tobey was in. I'd actually say that all three of these feats are consistent with each other.

In conclusion, we only have two feats that support Tobey being as strong as you claim he is. Catching the cable car, and breaking webs that caught that cable car. To contradict, we have the train and metal structure. Personally, I'd say two separate feats hold more intent than 1 feat, being scaled to apply a second time. Regardless, it's 2v2, in which case we should assume the worst of the two as to avoid high-balling Tobey. Both the anti-feats are also more recent, so they better reflect the current intent. To reinstate my earlier point, any "context" that can be assumed for the anti-feats can also be assumed for the feats, due to probable lack of intent. But let's assume for a minute that Tobey catching 141 tons with one hand is consistent. I wouldn't say that means web incap will not work. Pulling 150 tons is still harder than catching it. And webbing is usually done by restraining an opponent's arms to their body. Both are which are pretty obvious, so I assume you knew. However, you never really explained how much the ease of Tobey's feat compensates for these additional struggles. Finally, I assumed it was clear that one web will not be Holland's end goal. Incapacitating someone is usually done with multiple webs. Making the task of breaking out a lot harder. We agreed that one of Holland's webs can hold 150 tons.

As for throwing the metal structure:

I don't see how anyone can compare a few thin steel beams to an entire massive steel wall / structure, you can see in the Gif below

Huh? You pointed out a small beam on the floor that wasn't absorbed to prove that the pull wasn't that powerful. I responded by saying that it's likely an editing mistake, and pointed out the multiple other beams that were absorbed. I didn't use it in relation to the entire wall.

that the wall is never nudged even slightly throughout the process, it falls as a result of the many things that were previously supporting it being pulled in, the actual wall itself never moves:

That doesn't mean the machine didn't aid it. Not only is it helped by Tobey, but the machine was getting more powerful over time - that's why it was such a threat. It was even pulling this massive structure from a far distance (something it was not doing before.)

As for Peter struggling to lift it, we have to consider that he caught the metal wall as it was falling, which would be considerably more straining than just holding it overhead

I responded to this last time: "You argue here that catching the wall strained him, so he was weaker when holding it up; but you also argued that Peter then throws the wall, seconds later, which would require a lot more strength. If he was strained, how does he perform a much better feat right after?"

additionally he doesn't struggle nearly as much as he does when he tosses it. When he's lifting it, he claims it's heavy, but is still able to hold it for around a minute as well as engage in a converation with MJ, his facial expression seems to remain relatively neutral aswell. When he tosses the wall, he screams out loud and was visibly struggling a lot more given his facial expression, clearly putting a lot more effort into this.

Fair enough, he does struggle more to throw it. However, simply putting more effort doesn't change someone from struggling with 25 tons to being able to perform a triple-digit ton feat, like you're claiming. You're framing it to suggest he wasn't struggling that much previously, but if you watch the scene, he's constantly shaking from the weight. It was clearly a decent struggle.

Tobey being able to break out is a counter, and something I still stand by.

Cool, so I take it you concede on them landing. Now if I've convinced the voters that Tobey can't break out of them easily, that's a viable win condition. There's not much else to say for the other webs, you're arguments are fine and don't greatly effect this battle.

I would concur with what you're saying if not for a specific detail in Peter's aim dodging, your example with Mr Blank is once again quite different from Peter's showing. We see Laurel fire the shot, then the scene cuts to Mr Blank moving and then the shot hits the wall, we never see Mr Blank concurrently move with the bullet that's been fired, unlike in Peter's showing, we see each gunshot and we see Peter move:

Ah, if you had brought up this point before, we could have agreed earlier. While this definitely makes the speed gap smaller, I'd still say Holland holds this advantage. I'd assume that a stark drone holds faster rounds than a thug's handgun, but also, Holland moves a greater distance when dodging; as I'm sure will be obvious when comparing the gif with your screen shots (which show Tobey moving a few inches.) Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier in this post, a speed advantage isn't a huge part of my argument. Closing in on Holland would still be naturally difficult, and web incapacitation is still viable.

Conclusion

I still maintain most of my original points that are crucial to this battle. Holland still holds a speed advantage, albeit to a smaller degree. Tobey being a casual '141-tonner' with one hand is inconsistent, and even if it weren't, web incapacitation is still a valid win condition. It's natural advantages such as restraining the opponent's limbs, and the fact that Holland will be aiming to land multiple webs ensures this. The webs landing was never really disputed, and instead your argument relied on Tobey being able to casually break free. Finally, the inherent advantage of actively staying at range will make it difficult for Tobey to close in on Holland. Therefore, while this will be an epic fight, Holland's Spider-Man will ultimately be victorious.

Fun debate, and good luck to you.

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@supremesoup: Bait, KoL.

With that said, I think BOC performed a lot better in this debate. He countered Lime's strength arguments extremely effectively and also pointed out that Holland dodged a far faster bullet than Tobey did, which convinced me that Holland holds the speed advantage. Since both Lime and BOC agreed that Holland would try to stay at range and web Tobey up, the speed advantage argument convinced me that Holland would be successful in that regard. BOC's counter of Lime's strength argument was enough to convince me that Tobey would have a hard time breaking Holland's webs. Overall, I think BOC convinced me that the web incap argument was both in character and would work on Tobey. However, it was an enjoyable debate so good job to both of you!

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@supremesoup: Bait, KoL.

With that said, I think BOC performed a lot better in this debate. He countered Lime's strength arguments extremely effectively and also pointed out that Holland dodged a far faster bullet than Tobey did, which convinced me that Holland holds the speed advantage. Since both Lime and BOC agreed that Holland would try to stay at range and web Tobey up, the speed advantage argument convinced me that Holland would be successful in that regard. BOC's counter of Lime's strength argument was enough to convince me that Tobey would have a hard time breaking Holland's webs. Overall, I think BOC convinced me that the web incap argument was both in character and would work on Tobey. However, it was an enjoyable debate so good job to both of you!

exactly!

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@supremesoup: Bait, KoL.

With that said, I think BOC performed a lot better in this debate. He countered Lime's strength arguments extremely effectively and also pointed out that Holland dodged a far faster bullet than Tobey did, which convinced me that Holland holds the speed advantage. Since both Lime and BOC agreed that Holland would try to stay at range and web Tobey up, the speed advantage argument convinced me that Holland would be successful in that regard. BOC's counter of Lime's strength argument was enough to convince me that Tobey would have a hard time breaking Holland's webs. Overall, I think BOC convinced me that the web incap argument was both in character and would work on Tobey. However, it was an enjoyable debate so good job to both of you!

I don't normally like to quote vote, but this sums up my exact thoughts word for word. I vote for @boc. He had far better control of the debate, namely in forcing it to become a matter of Tobey closing the distance and getting past Holland's ranged options. In doing so, BoC made speed the main arguing point, which Holland seemed to hold the definitive advantage in. The strength arguments for Tobey were pretty sub par imo. BoC did a great job of calling their consistency into question, and I wasn't convinced by Subline's arguments for their validity. This-

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  • Catching the Cable Car with One Arm (141 Ton Feat)
  • Tossing the Metal Structure
  • Overpowering Green Goblin:
    • Green Goblin can rip through Webbing that can catch the Cable Car (141 Ton Feat)
    • Green Goblin can easily carry around the 19 Ton Cable Car with a single arm (just lifting it with one arm is enough to make him a casual 38 tonner, carrying it around should at least be a bit better, certainly invalidates Peter struggling so much and passing out from a 46 ton feat).

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-is circular reasoning. You can't prove consistency by scaling the two feats in question off of one another. The Cable Car feat is 141 tons. Fine. But BoC is contesting its consistency, so saying that overpowering Green Goblin makes that consistent, only to refer back to that same showing, doesn't prove anything. At the end of the day, besides the Cable Car feat, there is nothing supporting Tobey being a "casual" 141 tonner. And, even if Subline did convince me of that, there still becomes the issue of Holland's webs individually being able to support 150 tons (by Subline's own admission). In other words, proving Tobey can flex out of a web grenade, for example, becomes extremely difficult without abusing the "casualness" aspect of the feat to upscale a 141 ton feat tiers and tiers above.

I feel like Subline played too much into BoC's game. From his opener, Subline was arguing a significant advantage in combat experience. Had Subline pushed that in a more relevant way (and not just naming people Spidey has lost to), I would be more convinced to his position. Heck, if he had focused on agility and maneuverability more so than just which bullet timing feat is the best, I definitely could see him swaying me. But, ultimately, he did none of those things. Even if Tobey can beat down Holland in CQC, with a conceded speed disadvantage and no other arguments to support it, there is no way Tobey is closing the distance before Holland webs him up. And I think BoC proved that is an effective win condition.