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#1 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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  • In character
  • Knowledge
  • Pre-Timeskip Luffy
  • Revengeance Raiden
  • To the deathdie
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#2 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Life_Without_Progress (23430 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by Jmarshmallow (13838 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweet, tag me for voting.

Jmarshmallow

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#5 Posted by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me. I love watching Nick represent Metal Gear characters. Hell, I love watching Nick do CaVs, no matter the character.

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#6 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Been gone all weekend, but this looks great. Feel free to start, but I'll try to put something together tonight.

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#7 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me. I love watching Nick represent Metal Gear characters. Hell, I love watching Nick do CaVs, no matter the character.

I hate to disappoint you, but I'm repping Luffy on this one :P probably should have made that clear in the OP

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#8 Posted by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by comicace3 (12425 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me!

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#10 Posted by Thitiki (4504 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I thought this was post-skip I was like really -_- but this is fair. tag for voting and make us Luffy fans proud!

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#11 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@thitiki said:

@nickzambuto: I thought this was post-skip I was like really -_- but this is fair. tag for voting and make us Luffy fans proud!

I don't see why post-timeskip Luffy wouldn't still be challenged by Raiden, to be honest the only reason I'm using pre-timeskip is because I'm not fully caught up.

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#12 Posted by homicidalmaniac (10894 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me when done

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#13 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by DeathHero61 (18499 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy. The arguments that will be thrown around here. This isn't current luffy is it?

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#15 Posted by Thitiki (4504 posts) - - Show Bio

@thitiki said:

@nickzambuto: I thought this was post-skip I was like really -_- but this is fair. tag for voting and make us Luffy fans proud!

I don't see why post-timeskip Luffy wouldn't still be challenged by Raiden, to be honest the only reason I'm using pre-timeskip is because I'm not fully caught up.

Luffy is far above time-skip. If you can argue that post is a challenge for him it should be pretty obvious time-skip would be in a whole other league.

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#16 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm. I think this should be changed to a pre-time-skip vs time-skip Luffy battle thread. Lol.

...JK fellas, I love it. :P

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#17 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Might as well get this started. I don't know very much about Luffy, so this post is going to be short. I think the best thing to do is get what everyone has seen a million times on here out of the way. Which is why the first section will be:

Raiden is Friggin' Strong

Anyone who has ever read a thread with Raiden has seen the big 3 feats that pop up in every thread. I want to get these out of the way, so later on I can highlight some other less discussed feats from Raiden.

Anyways, here's Raiden being a human anchor to Outerhaven.

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1:17-3:20

So Old Man Snake is about to be crushed by the massive Outerhaven. Raiden, who was already near death before this ever even happens, has his arm trapped under a pile of rubble. So he proceeds to cut it off, sprint to Outerhaven, and stop the entire base from moving through shear strength, even though he was already dang near dead, and missing an arm. He even gets crushed by the base at the end of it, but it doesn't keep him down. When we next see Raiden, he's still alive and kicking. He's literally kicking, because he doesn't have any arms anymore.

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Even without any arms, and ripped apart enough that he really should be dead, Raiden is still there to protect Snake, and let him start his microwave tunnel crawl. If you want, you can watch the tunnel crawl and see Raiden still being a crazy awesome ninja even without any arms, but I'm sure you've watched that scene a thousand times. :)

Anyways, the point is Raiden is friggin' strong and friggin' tough. I haven't seen a ton of what Luffy can do, and I know he is also very strong, but he is going to have to be packing a lot to put down Raiden and not be instantly torn in half when Raiden connects. This is just Version 1.0 too. Next time we see Raiden, it's in Rising, where he gets a nice upgrade to his armor.

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It looks similar, but this is quite a bit stronger.

I can go more into some of what the armor does later, but for now, here's Feat number 2 we've all seen a million times. Raiden blocking Ray, then tossing the massive Metal Gear with brute strength.

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This obviously shows off Raiden's high level strength, but it also shows off how strong his H.F. sword is. Any normal sword would shatter in half blocking something like this, but Raiden's sword doesn't even take a scratch.

This still is not Raiden at full power though. This is just Raiden 2.0. We still have yet to get into Raiden with his most current and most powerful armor.

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In this armor, Raiden gets much better physicals. He has a very high level of strength and durability. This is what leads to over-used Raiden feat number 3. The throwing of Metal Gear Excelsus.

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Excelsus was huge and, made out of denser armor then any other Metal Gear before it, making it pound for pound heavier then the previous Metal Gears, and way larger as well. What makes this feat even more impressive, is that Raiden grabbed Excelsus by the very end of one of it's sword-like arms when he body slams it. Think about a normal human trying to pick up a 45 pound weight. I'd assume pretty much every human adult who is in good health could do this. Now imagine attaching that weight to a 20 foot pole, and having to lift the weight from the very end of the opposite side of the pole, and flip it over your head like Raiden did to Excelsus. This would be almost impossible to do, yet Raiden does this on an even longer appendage with the largest most dense mech in the MG universe on the other side of it.

I'm sure Luffy must have some sort of counter to Raiden's huge strength levels, or else you would have never suggested this CaV. I thought it would be best to get these three feats out of the way though, so we can move on to some points not brought up as often in the normal forums.

I'll wait for you to give some Luffy stuff before I continue, so that way I don't ramble on too much without referring to the battle at hand. :)

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#18 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Raiden is very strong, in raw strength he probably exceeds Luffy. However, I was prepared for that. There are a few finer points of Raiden's strength feats that I could argue, like the fact that Raiden was only able to lift RAY after removing all of it's armor and could only flip Excelsus after cutting off several of it's limbs, but that doesn't change the fact that Raiden is stronger than Luffy. However, Raiden's strength won't actually do him any good, because when Luffy was a child he ate the Gomu Gomu no Mi, or the Gum Gum Fruit in English. This transformed his entire body, flesh, hair, organs, penis, everything into rubber, making him almost totally immune to blunt force.

The second chapter of One Piece established Luffy's immunity very clearly.
The second chapter of One Piece established Luffy's immunity very clearly.

During the Thriller Bark arc, Luffy was even able to tank a beating from a guy who split an entire island in half with one punch.

After absorbing every single shadow on Thriller Bark, Gekko Moriah effortlessly splits the island in half with one punch. Yes, it is confirmed that the entire island was split.
After absorbing every single shadow on Thriller Bark, Gekko Moriah effortlessly splits the island in half with one punch. Yes, it is confirmed that the entire island was split.
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Yet Luffy remained unscathed from his attacks. Characters even confirm Moriah used the same punch that split the island.

I suppose if they were to get into a grapple at some point that would give Raiden the advantage, but Luffy actually has several techniques that can be used should he and his opponent lock fists that would put things in his favor. For example, if Luffy finds himself being overpowered, he could stretch his head back and hit Raiden with a Gum Gum Bell, which is just a headbutt.

Gomu Gomu no Kame

Alternatively, Luffy could break the grapple by quickly inhaling and activating the Gum Gum Balloon, which would knock Raiden back.

Gum Gum Balloon

So clearly, Raiden's strength won't really do him any good at all in this fight. That's a big advantage to Luffy right from the get-go considering his strength is going to do a LOT to Jack. His raw strength might not be on par, but that doesn't mean Raiden is durable enough to tank his attacks. At the age of 7 Luffy claimed that his punch was as powerful as a pistol, and in the very first chapter of One Piece he showed the strength to effortlessly oneshot and send flying a gigantic sea monster with his weakest attack.

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Throughout the course of the series Luffy regularly displays the ability to break steel with his bare hands, topple buildings, and oneshot the strongest of superhumans. Additionally, Luffy is often shown to increase in strength quite dramatically in a short time. During the Skypia arc, Luffy had a large ball of solid gold melted onto his arm.

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This ball is estimated to weigh in excess of 700 tons. Originally Luffy couldn't even move, but after a few minutes he was able to lift the ball over his head, run around with it, and eventually punch as if it wasn't there at all.

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This ability to grow in strength rapidly is a consistent character trait for Luffy, and it very well could end up evening out the raw strength gap. But I digress, more importantly by the end of the Skypia arc, Luffy had grown strong enough that he was able to punch hard enough to visually break the sound barrier multiple times despite the golden ball still being attached to his arm, with Enel unable to dodge despite being MADE of lightning. The punch ended up breaking Enel's guard, pushing him hundreds of meters, oneshotting him, and completely shattering the golden ball in the process while also managing to ring the giant golden bell, which itself had to weigh an ungodly amount of tons. Luffy also did this while in midair with absolutely no leverage to his punch, just sheer upper body strength.

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Now can you imagine how powerful that punch would have been had none of those extra factors been there? No golden ball or bell, just the punch. Enel would have freakin' exploded.

Granted, I know how insanely durable Raiden can be, his fight against Armstrong attested to that, but Luffy actually has a way around this. Let's say it would take 100 punches for Luffy to drop Raiden, Luffy's elasticity would actually allow him to land that many punches in just a few seconds. Certain techniques like the Gum Gum Gatling and Storm involve a snap-back motion where Luffy's arms are sent stretching behind him, and then rocket back like a rubber band. The result is a barrage of super-powered punches that come so fast it creates the illusion that Luffy has grown extra arms.

The Gum Gum Storm is so powerful that even while poisoned, exhausted, dehydrated, and bleeding out, Luffy was able to punch through Crocodile's Desert Spada (which rips mile deep chasms into the earth) and put Crocodile's body through solid bedrock, shaking the whole town, raising houses, and rupturing an entire city block in the process, with Crocodile's body getting sent so high into the air that he could be seen throughout the whole country.

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Bottom line: the Gum Gum Storm would f*ck Raiden up.

This isn't even getting into Gear Second and Gear Third.

Now obviously Raiden's strength being nullified by Luffy's elasticity doesn't really matter at all, because the High Frequency Blade wouldn't have any trouble cutting through Luffy. Luffy's slicing resistance is a lot better than most people give him credit for, for instance he was able to punch through the aforementioned Desert Spada without injury, but I don't doubt Jack would cut him up if given the chance. Luckily for me, Luffy's reflexes and agility are top notch. Early on in the series Luffy is shown to be able to react to foes vastly faster than him through a combination of raw instincts and flexibility. Most notably Captain Kuro, who was even faster than superhumans were able to see. In the below scans the Nyaban brothers charge Kuro thinking they can kill him, when he vanishes from thin air, appearing behind them. By the time they turn around, he had gotten behind them again and wrapped his arms around their shoulders.

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Technically, Luffy himself was also unable to see Kuro, and yet he was able to battle him on even ground and even avoid attacks from behind.

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As the battle went on, Luffy gradually began to take the advantage, even having time to rip out a chunk of earth to block Kuro's attack rather than simply dodge in order to break his claws.

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Eventually Kuro got desperate and used the Shakushi technique. In this state, rather than simply escaping his opponent's vision as he did before, Kuro becomes totally invisible to the eye for prolonged periods of time. He was blitzing an entire pirate crew without anyone being capable of even beginning to react. I believe Shakushi makes Kuro faster than Raiden, and Luffy still defeated him.

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Another character who's faster than Raiden is Bellamy. His Devil Fruit allows him to shape his legs into springs and propel himself around. By using his ultimate technique he basically appeared to be everywhere in town at once, yet Luffy treated him like a joke.

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One final note on speed, in my opinion, Roronoa Zoro very clearly surpasses Raiden's speed by a significant margin. Raiden is sometimes shown moving faster than the human eye can see, and while he's undoubtedly capable of this speed by the time of Revengeance, nobody in the Metal Gear universe has ever displayed quite the level of speed that Zoro did at Whiskey Peak. In the below scans, Zoro is first standing at the tip of a large house on a hill overlooking the 100 Baroque Works bounty hunters. In an instant, Zoro vanishes from sight, climbs down the house and hill, and makes his way to the center of the crowd without anybody seeing anything. He then continually evades their sight, easily dodges bullets, and tricks them into shooting each other.

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Raiden can't replicate these feats, yet in the same story arc, Luffy had a very brief fight against Zoro where they were both bloodlusted and were on 100% completely even ground. Luffy dodged and countered every single attack Zoro threw out, despite the obvious advantage of swords over fists. This actually leads me to believe that Luffy was faster than Zoro at the time, or at least more agile, and since Raiden isn't any more skilled than Zoro, I don't see why Luffy wouldn't be able to avoid his attacks even easier.

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As you can see, Luffy's reflexes most likely exceed those of Raiden. I'm fully aware of Raiden's best feats, his bullet deflecting, missile hopping, etc, and none of them fully breach the hypersonic mark. I believe Raiden is only hypersonic in Blade Mode, but that only lasts a few seconds and he's unable to move during that time. Luffy meanwhile can definitely react to hypersonic characters and projectiles at base, and Gear Second enhances his speed substantially.

Since you don't know anything about Luffy I'm going to approach this debate like an instructional. I'll end things here, let you soak everything up, and in my next post I'll go over Gear Second, Third, and the future pirate king's asinine levels of will power.

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#20 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Just making sure you get an alert.

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#21 Posted by Thitiki (4504 posts) - - Show Bio

Looking good from both sides.

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#22 Posted by Full123 (4506 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag m

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#23 Posted by Full123 (4506 posts) - - Show Bio

Good debates.

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#24 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Just making sure you get an alert.

Cool thanks, cause I didn't get one. I'll probably type something up tonight.

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#25 Posted by colliderz (4756 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag4Votes

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#26 Posted by Full123 (4506 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for Luffy

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#27 Edited by Hollow_Point (1431 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: oh god, the world is ending! You're arguing against a metal gear character! Lol

Be seriously, tag me when voting starts up. This is gonna be good

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#28 Posted by Etheral_Dreams (6116 posts) - - Show Bio

Music. *backs away*

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#29 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@full123 said:

Tag me for Luffy

I wonder who you're voting for? LOL :P

@nickzambuto

Some of the videos time stops are not working in this post and I can't figure out why, so make sure you refer to the time I label instead of where it is paused at in this thread.

Looks good, and from what you've shown already, this would likely be the toughest opponent Raiden has ever faced including Senator Armstrong. I actually think Luffy might have a few advantages that would take out Raiden if Raiden is fighting dumb. Luckily Raiden is anything but a dumb fighter, and can take out characters that should be able to beat him. We've both seen plenty of what Raiden can do with his raw physicals, but I want to spend the majority of this post showing off Raiden before he even was a cyborg, and how he was able to fight smart like Snake does. He was trained to be on the level of Solid Snake even before he was a cyborg, and I'm sure you can agree with me that Snake is more then capable of beating someone more powerful then himself, which just might be the case with a character like Luffy.

Take a quick look at the following video.

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This is basically just a brief synopsis of Raiden up until Rising. Raiden was already a deadly killer before he was a Cyborg, in fact, he was a deadly killer before he was even an adult. Raiden was adopted by Solidus Snake at 6 years old, and was given a gun and a knife, and was trained to be the greatest child soldier in history (or at least the most deadly). At such a young age, he had such a high kill count, that he was awarded captain of his unit by the age of 10. He gained the nicknames "White Devil" and more importantly "The Ripper" because of his skill at killing with a blade, which was also taught to him from Solidus. This killing never stopped either, as after the Liberian Civil Wars were over, he was recruited to be the operative to replace Solid Snake in the reformed FOXHOUND unit.

As part of his training, Raiden took part in over 300 VR mission simulations that were designed to put the trainee in the same situations that Snake faced at Shadow Moses and on the Tanker in the beginning of MGS2. Not only did Raiden pass these training sessions, he even excelled and was more efficient then Snake in completing many of them.

Here's a video that shows what these training sessions were like.

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Early in the Big Shell mission, Snake even leaves a comment for Raiden saying that VR training isn't enough to justify him being a real soldier, because it's not the same as combat experience. This kind of lets you think that Raiden really doesn't have what it takes to do what Snake does. Turns out, Snake was misinformed about Raiden, as Raiden has tons of field experience that may even surpass the amount of time Snake has spent in the field, as Raiden fought in the Liberian Civil Wars under Solidus for years.

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Conversation between Snake and Raiden

So if the only thing Snake thought Raiden was missing to be a truly high trained soldier on the caliber of himself was experience, and Raiden has a vast amount of field experience, it makes sense why he was chosen to be a Snake replacement for FOXHOUND. Raiden is basically Solid Snake, but where Snake is a master of CQC and being a bad@ss, Raiden is a master of swords, being a ninja, and whining about his annoying girlfriend every 5 minutes through codec.

Don't take my word for it though, Solidus Snake even says it himself, and comments that he has been using his skill to kill like he used to in the old days throughout the entire Big Shell incident.

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Watch 4:18:20 -4:19:29 - Talks about S3 program, which was designed to replicate Solid Snake with Raiden, to make him the perfect warrior.

If we can't take Solidus' word for it, we can surely agree with one of the greatest masterminds of all time, Revolver Ocelot.

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4:30:21-4:34:00 - Ocelot explains that the entire Big Shell incident was designed by him, to test that Raiden could actually recreate what Solid Snake was able to do, so he could retrieve data for training future soldiers. This really helps confirm that Raiden can recreate feats of near impossible victories, just like Snake does.

So Raiden has been trained to do what Snake does, and that's beat opponents that he should have no business beating. He has to be able to think on the fly, and find ways to beat these very powerful characters. When he was trapped by Fortune, and later Vamp, he knew there was no way for him to physically take them on, so he had to improvise.

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Fortune's bullet shield makes it completely impossible to actually shoot her, and Vamp is so fast, that he can dodge bullets with ease. Raiden used both of their advantages against them. He knew if he shot right at Vamp, Vamp would react, so instead he shot at Fortune, predicted the flight of the bullets once it hit the shield, and scored a head shot and another in his torso on Vamp to KO him. Obviously Raiden isn't carrying any guns in this, but I thought it's important to show that Raiden can find a way to beat his opponents regardless of their advantages, which is something he will need to do against Luffy.

This isn't the only time Raiden has faced overwhelming odds, he's even had to fight multiple Metal Gear Rays all at once.

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Facing even one Ray could be tough for a cyborg, yet non-cyborg-Raiden had to face multiple Rays. He targeted weak spots to hold the Rays at bay until Olga came to interfere and give Raiden a chance. This is another situation that Raiden had no business surviving, but he pulls through because of a tactical display of skill.

I know I'm showing a lot of MGS2 stuff on this post, but I think it's important to get a complete look at Raiden, and I think one last moment from that game should be discussed, and that's his victory over Solidus.

Both Solidus and non-cyborg-Raiden don't get very much love on the battle forums. I think it's mostly because of how hated MGS2 was by Solid Snake fans. I'll admit, I was a little ticked off the first time I played the game, and all of a sudden there was some blonde pretty boy after only the intro of the game was played by Snake. Looking back now, I've come to appreciate how vital these two characters are to the MGS universe, and have noticed how impressive their displays of skill actually are.

To help demonstrate this, here's a little example of Olga has the cyborg ninja, and then I'll get back on topic with Solidus. Olga didn't really have any enhancements as the ninja, but she still showed great speed and reaction time, and was deflecting automatic bullets from multiple shooters out of the air like it was child's play.

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So Olga is capable of very fast reaction times, but she was still not quick enough for Solidus.

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Solidus was able to use his tentacle arm, to grab Olga before she could react. He then restrains and shoots her, but I don't think it was necessary to include that much in the gif. This shows off how much speed Solidus has in his attacks, seeing as how he could swat her gun out of her hand before she could fire, then follow up by grabbing her neck before she could move out of the way.

To really show Solidus' speed though, just take a look at what happens when Snake tries to shoot him. I don't think I need to tell you about Snake's skill at shooting speedsters and bullet timers either. :)

Dodges bullets fired from Snake after they are fired.
Dodges bullets fired from Snake after they are fired.
Deflects bullets fired from Snake.
Deflects bullets fired from Snake.
Dodges a grenade fired from Snake.
Dodges a grenade fired from Snake.

So even if Olga isn't full of feats, Snake sure is, and dodging Snake's marksmanship is amazing. But there's still more where this comes from. He's even shown off this speed and skill against multiple Metal Gear Rays.

Dodges and destroys one Ray
Dodges and destroys one Ray
Sprints through gunfire from Ray, dodging it, then takes it out by firing on it's head from point blank
Sprints through gunfire from Ray, dodging it, then takes it out by firing on it's head from point blank
Solidus is already targeted by a Ray, but he reacts and takes it out before it can act.
Solidus is already targeted by a Ray, but he reacts and takes it out before it can act.

So sure, those were just Ray drones, so maybe they weren't quite up to snuff with a highly skilled Metal Gear Pilot, like say Ocelot. Well that is exactly what happens next. Ocelot is piloting Ray, and opens fire on Solidus.

Solidus deflects a hail of gunfire by Ocelot piloting Ray
Solidus deflects a hail of gunfire by Ocelot piloting Ray

So I think it's safe to say that Solidus had some serious speed, reaction times, and skill. Even with all of this, he was still no match for Raiden when they finally faced off.

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5:03:30 - 5:04:30

Raiden is able to match the speed that Solidus has, and get the better of him, by slicing down the back of his spine. What makes this more impressive, is that Jack didn't even have any sort of enhancements, and he was facing Solidus, who was enhanced by his exoskeleton.

I think it was necessary to show this part of Raiden's life pre-cyrbog, because when he's in the armor, it's too easy to just see his amazing feats of strength, speed, and durability, and you forget just how skilled Raiden actually was before he ever even became the strongest character in the MGS universe. Raiden isn't going to win this fight on raw physicals, he needs to back it up with his skill that he's been developing since he was 6 years old.

I refrained from showing any cyborg feats for this post on purpose (and because I'm getting tired and don't want to start pulling cyborg stuff out right now lol), but there will be plenty more to come by time this CaV is over. Coming into a fight with what Luffy is capable of, Raiden will get pummeled if he tries to just out-muscle him, and not fight smart. Showing feats of pure strength, aren't going to help Raiden so much, as Luffy can just soak up that kind of punishment anyways, and Luffy has some tricky maneuvers that Raiden needs to counter, and be smart about it while he does.

For example:

During the Thriller Bark arc, Luffy was even able to tank a beating from a guy who split an entire island in half with one punch.

Raiden, really isn't one to attack with blunt force, but he will be sure to avoid it after he notices Luffy's rubber body. Tanking island splitting punches won't matter so much, when Raiden attacks 99% of his time with a sword, and is smart enough not to attempt attacks that don't really help him win.

I suppose if they were to get into a grapple at some point that would give Raiden the advantage, but Luffy actually has several techniques that can be used should he and his opponent lock fists that would put things in his favor. For example, if Luffy finds himself being overpowered, he could stretch his head back and hit Raiden with a Gum Gum Bell, which is just a headbutt.

While this is a cool move, I don't see something like this connecting. Raiden was fast enough before he was a cyborg to dodge something like this as he showed in his fight with Solidus. Luffy coming in head first might be a good way to get a head full of HF sword. This is one of the maneuvers Raiden can wait for, and counter with a one hit win.

Granted, I know how insanely durable Raiden can be, his fight against Armstrong attested to that, but Luffy actually has a way around this. Let's say it would take 100 punches for Luffy to drop Raiden, Luffy's elasticity would actually allow him to land that many punches in just a few seconds. Certain techniques like the Gum Gum Gatling and Storm involve a snap-back motion where Luffy's arms are sent stretching behind him, and then rocket back like a rubber band. The result is a barrage of super-powered punches that come so fast it creates the illusion that Luffy has grown extra arms.

This is another maneuver Raiden should be able to counter if he's fighting smart. He has the reaction time to stop fast firing bullets, and attacks from characters that take out other bullet timers, Raiden just has to connect with his sword on one of these fists flying at him, and Luffy could lose a hand or even an entire arm. While this is more difficult because of the wide spread and random strikes from Luffy's arm, it will likely take several hits to put Raiden down, and all Raiden has to do is connect with one swing of his sword to do serious damage. I'll get more into Raiden's sword in the next post, but it cuts through everything like it's passing through air.

You also spoke about Luffy vs Zoro, and compare Zoro to Raiden. I actually like this comparison quite a bit, with Raiden having the advantage of being able to cut through anything without needing to discover the rhythm of what is being cut through, but other then that, they are very similar. In the fight you posted, it looked like they were on pretty even footing, and the fight kind of stopped before Zoro really did much attacking with real intent to harm Luffy. It would have been nice to see that fight all the way through until there was a clear cut winner, because that would really provide a good basis for this battle at hand.

If I wasn't debating for the side of Raiden, I'm inclined to think I would say these two characters split 5/10 in a normal battle thread, but with this being so even IMO, I'm really looking forward to seeing where this battle goes from here. I'm looking forward to you showing some of the stronger stuff from Luffy, and how it will mix when I post some more Cyborg Raiden feats to contend with the "Gear Second" or whatever that is. :)

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#30 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: oh god, the world is ending! You're arguing against a metal gear character! Lol

No worries, it's just dumb ol' Raiden, not anyone cool.

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#31 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@hollow_point said:

@nickzambuto: oh god, the world is ending! You're arguing against a metal gear character! Lol

No worries, it's just dumb ol' Raiden, not anyone cool.

At least it's not some clown like Solid Snake. Kojima really hit his stride in MGS2, but then he lost it until he finally figured it out again with Rising. The rest of the series is just filler.

:P

Post is up.

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#32 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@nickzambuto said:

@hollow_point said:

@nickzambuto: oh god, the world is ending! You're arguing against a metal gear character! Lol

No worries, it's just dumb ol' Raiden, not anyone cool.

At least it's not some clown like Solid Snake. Kojima really hit his stride in MGS2, but then he lost it until he finally figured it out again with Rising. The rest of the series is just filler.

:P

Post is up.

Kojima didn't work on Rising! And are you really calling another character a clown when you're debating for a guy who's first impression to the player was slipping on bird crap? Don't get me started on that goofy ass animation with his arms flailing all over the place.

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#33 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Kojima didn't work on Rising!

He was probably just too intimidated to have to work on a character as powerful as Raiden.

And are you really calling another character a clown when you're debating for a guy who's first impression to the player was slipping on bird crap? Don't get me started on that goofy ass animation with his arms flailing all over the place.

To be fair, there was a lot of bird poop.

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Hopefully you know I'm joking, because not even I can seriously say that Raiden is a better character then Snake. :P

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#34 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: I hate to ask, but can you put those gifs in spoiler tags? My computer is awful.

but I want to spend the majority of this post showing off Raiden before he even was a cyborg, and how he was able to fight smart like Snake does. He was trained to be on the level of Solid Snake even before he was a cyborg,

While it's true that the S3 plan was intended to condition Raiden into a Solid Snake clone, saying he's actually on Snake's level is just incorrect. Snake spent the majority of the game making fun of Raiden's abilities and treating him like a child. In the graphic novel they had a brief fight where Snake dodged all of Raiden's attacks and literally swatted him down as if he would a fly, and in terms of tactical prowess, Snake outsmarted and humiliated Raiden on multiple occasions throughout the storyline, even using him as a scapegoat to gain access into Arsenal Gear. So while Raiden is highly skilled in his own right, comparing him to Solid Snake is the wrong way to go.

As part of his training, Raiden took part in over 300 VR mission simulations that were designed to put the trainee in the same situations that Snake faced at Shadow Moses and on the Tanker in the beginning of MGS2. Not only did Raiden pass these training sessions, he even excelled and was more efficient then Snake in completing many of them.

That's because the simulations were shallow and inaccurate re-creations of the actual events with many details censored and distorted by the Patriots. Snake said as much the moment he met Raiden, and he was proven right a few minutes later when Jack nearly had a panic attack after he met Dead Cell and experienced the reality of war.

This is basically just a brief synopsis of Raiden up until Rising. Raiden was already a deadly killer before he was a Cyborg, in fact, he was a deadly killer before he was even an adult.

Luffy has actually been in training and active combat since he was a toddler. His Grandpa Garp was the strongest Marine in all the world government, and in order to make sure Luffy followed in his footsteps, Garp began conditioning his body and fighting skills as early as possible.

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2:05 - 3:00

Later on Luffy went to live with his 'brothers' Ace and Sabo, and together the three made a living by hunting giant animals and beating up pirate crews and stealing their treasure. At the age of 7 Luffy claimed his punch was already as strong as a pistol, and he had no difficulty fighting and beating fully grown men.

In terms of actual combat skill, Luffy isn't a trained martial artist like Raiden. His fighting style revolves almost entirely around his instincts, which interestingly enough, are almost always correct. Take a look at the scene below, Luffy is faced with a mob of wax duplicates all completely identical to Mr. 3, and he is able to correctly pick out the real one on sheer instinct.

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Just to show how truly powerful Luffy's instincts really are, he was able to outclass actual precognition with them after completely shutting down his brain. Doing this rendered him unable to counter so it's not applicable in a fight against Raiden, but it's still worth bringing up.

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Strong instincts might not seem like much in comparison to a martial arts master like Raiden, but Luffy's instincts and natural dexterity when coupled with the abilities of the Gomu Gomu no Mi allow him to hold his own against combat experts all the time, like Zoro and Rob Lucci.

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Watch through 3:30 (then stop because that's when Luffy activates Gear Second). Rob Lucci is a high ranking secret agent for the World Government. He's considered to be the greatest fighter in the entire history of CP9, which is a highly elite, clandestine organization that only deals in the most secretive and dangerous of missions. That's similar enough to Raiden and FOXHOUND, but where the two distinguish is that at the age of 13, Lucci was already a skilled enough killer to singlehandedly slaughter over 500 trained soldiers all at once, then immediately afterwards slaughter the pirate crew who had been keeping them hostage. Not only is Lucci a master of all five Rokushiki powers, but he's also the only member of CP9 to have mastered the forbidden technique Rokuogan as well, all the while finding time to learn the Life Return technique which allows the user to control their bodily functions to the point of changing their mass at will. He's easily a grandmaster level martial artist, and has proven himself skilled enough in CQC to easily dispatch fighters as powerful as Franky, Paulie, and Nero without effort, yet lil ol' Luffy was the one to give him the fight of his life, and literally match him move for move. Check out those strikes, that dodging skill, those parries! Luffy even gets in a few grapples as the fight progresses.

I think this, coupled with Luffy's fight against Zoro (who is likewise a supremely skilled martial artist) are enough to prove that Raiden won't have him completely outmatched in CQC. His fight against Kuro really showed how powerful his instincts are, allowing him to dodge and defeat an opponent who so grossly outclassed him in speed, so even if Raiden is a better fighter, Luffy's insane avoidance skills should allow him to keep up.

Tactics are another thing. Raiden is intelligent, but when it comes to thinking on his feet I think Luffy has the edge. Very often his battles will be against opponents who not only physically outclass him, but also use bladed weapons, so he has to be constantly prepared. Against Arlong, he was quick enough to use a human shield to save himself despite very little time to react.

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Later on in the fight Luffy found his arm pinned in Arlong's jaws. Rather than simply pull out, he was smart enough to slam Arlong's face into the ground to escape. Genzo then confirmed that had Luffy taken even a single step back, his arm would have been ripped to shreds.

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I mean it may not be rocket science or anything, but it's these little ideas in combat that show just how quickly Luffy can think to save his life in a sticky situation. A Rankyaku is a special kick that comes so fast it sends out a razor sharp, pressurized air wave that can slice through stone and metal. Dodging one of these is tough enough, but in his fight with Blueno, Luffy had his legs pinned inside the ground rendering him immobile, and he was blinded on top of that. When the Rankyaku was fired at point blank range, rather than try to escape, Luffy's instincts told him to burrow beneath the ground to dodge. Pretty resourceful on his part.

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He's no stranger to unorthodox tactics either. After shutting down his brain proved ineffectual in defeating Enel, Luffy came up with another, rather ingenious tactic to trick Enel's precognition by taking advantage of his rubber properties. Just watch.

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I won't touch on any of your feats from Raiden, they're all solid showings and there's not much context for me to point out.

Raiden, really isn't one to attack with blunt force, but he will be sure to avoid it after he notices Luffy's rubber body. Tanking island splitting punches won't matter so much, when Raiden attacks 99% of his time with a sword, and is smart enough not to attempt attacks that don't really help him win.

Fair enough, I was just sayin' since you asked what's to stop Raiden from ending this with one punch.

While this is a cool move, I don't see something like this connecting. Raiden was fast enough before he was a cyborg to dodge something like this as he showed in his fight with Solidus. Luffy coming in head first might be a good way to get a head full of HF sword. This is one of the maneuvers Raiden can wait for, and counter with a one hit win.

I brought up the Gum Gum Bell as an example of what Luffy could do to save himself in a grapple, not as an opening move. If their fists are locked Raiden can't use his sword, he either jumps back and gives up his advantage or gets his skull cracked.

In the fight you posted, it looked like they were on pretty even footing, and the fight kind of stopped before Zoro really did much attacking with real intent to harm Luffy. It would have been nice to see that fight all the way through until there was a clear cut winner, because that would really provide a good basis for this battle at hand.

I disagree, they were both clearly bloodlusted. Luffy said he wanted to kill Zoro and Zoro said he wanted to kill Luffy. Zoro tried his best but Luffy avoided all lethal shots.

If it means anything, Luffy has always been stronger than Zoro. The margin is slim at base, but in Gear Second he'd blitz him.

This is another maneuver Raiden should be able to counter if he's fighting smart. He has the reaction time to stop fast firing bullets, and attacks from characters that take out other bullet timers, Raiden just has to connect with his sword on one of these fists flying at him, and Luffy could lose a hand or even an entire arm.

Raiden wouldn't be the first person to try and take advantage of this weakness. Luffy is well aware of it and has modified his entire fighting style around it. All he has to do is quickly retract his arm, or give his shoulder a bit of a twang and make his fist go wide.

it will likely take several hits to put Raiden down, and all Raiden has to do is connect with one swing of his sword to do serious damage. I'll get more into Raiden's sword in the next post, but it cuts through everything like it's passing through air.

No arguments from me, Raiden's sword could cleave Luffy in half no problem. The problem comes from landing a hit like that, which is easier said than done. Again the majority of Luffy's opponents used bladed weapons. They land hits, but more often than not Luffy is able to avoid a lethal strike, such as getting chopped in half. Meanwhile, even though he can't oneshot Raiden, its not as if Luffy's punches are going to feel good.

Here's Sanji defeating a massive Bananawini and launching it through the air with one kick. These guys are strong enough to prey on Godzilla-sized sea monsters, but Sanji had no difficulty defeating one.

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A few sagas later, here's Sanji, as desperate and motivated as he's ever been, using his strongest kick against Blueno and still failing to break the Tekkai.

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And then immediately after Luffy breaks the Tekkai and has Blueno spitting up blood with one punch.

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And I must stress this is all Base Luffy. By going into his Gears, Luffy has a way of multiplying his fighting power.

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So, what are Gears I hear you ask? I'll start with Gear Second. Basically, by using the rubber properties of his body, Luffy is able to form his legs into makeshift pumps, which he uses to speed up the blood flow in his body to provide more oxygen and nutrients quicker. Since his blood vessels are rubber, they can expand to accept more blood without tearing, thus enhancing Luffy's abilities substantially.

In his fight against Blueno, Luffy admitted that even with all the feats I showed for him already, Blueno had him outclassed. Luffy was capable of injuring him, as I showed, but Blueno's speed made him untouchable. After going into Second Gear however, Luffy was fast enough to... well, just watch.

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Due to his speed increase, Luffy's strikes are also enhanced substantially. Now he can break Blueno's Tekkai with just a Gum Gum Pistol, the weakest of the Gum Gum moves. Previously it required the Gum Gum Rifle, one of his strongest.

In Second Gear, Luffy is able to outmatch precognition without shutting down his brain, because now his physical speed matches up with his reflexes.

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Every single move he makes is like teleportation. His punches are completely invisible. TWO masters of precognition are fighting him simultaneously, and neither can land a hit.

Here's Luffy defeating Marigold and Sandersonia by blitzing them with Jet Gatling, then kicking them into each other and using their respective abilities against each other, similar to how Raiden dealt with Fortune and Vamp.

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I feel that the instant Luffy enters Second Gear is the instant Raiden loses. He can't keep up with Luffy's speed at all anymore, and it should only be a matter of time before the barrage of Jet punches brings the cyborg down.

Just in case you're unconvinced though, Luffy does have one more trick up his sleeve -- Gear Third.

This technique is a lot more straightforward. Luffy bites a hole into his thumb, then inflates his bones with air, greatly increasing the size of his fists and exponentially increasing his attack power. He broke Lucci's legs with one punch and demolished two buildings without slowing down.

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Gear Third would f*ck Raiden up. The only downside is that his attacks become somewhat slower, Lucci was able to dodge them when he tried, though I'd argue Lucci is faster than Raiden. Luffy's body also shrivels up and shrinks after using the technique, making him incredibly weak for a period of time and forcing him to hide. With these downsides, using the technique in the wrong situation would be suicide, but the monstrous power it possesses more than makes up for any drawbacks.

I think I've said my piece for now. Luffy's physical advantage over Raiden becomes monstrous in his Gears, and he's not outclassed in terms of skill by any noticeable amount. Even if you think he is, the guy still has his absurd damage soak to fall back on, but I'll wait for you to go over the power of the H/F Blade before getting into that. Overall, I think Luffy's instincts, avoidance skill, and his Gears will be too much for Raiden to keep up with, whereas Jack's strength, sword, and training are things that Luffy has already proven himself capable of countering between the myriad of opponents he's faced throughout the course of One Piece.

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#35 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks Just making sure you got the alert.

EDIT: Oh, I see you put the gifs in spoiler tags. My bad.

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#36 Posted by Leo-343 (30909 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks Just making sure you got the alert.

EDIT: Oh, I see you put the gifs in spoiler tags. My bad.

Ya, they really were bogging the thread down. I might not have the next post for a few days. I'm going to be busy all weekend, and will probably be really busy Monday and Tuesday. :/

I won;t forget about this though! :)

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#38 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Still twiddling my thumbs here!

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#39 Posted by RealityWarper (12333 posts) - - Show Bio

Luffy dies.

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#40 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I hear you, I haven't been on here for more then 5 minutes at a time for the past week. I'll do my best to lock down at least a half hour to get another post in soon. I want to say tomorrow, but the Lions have their opener for Monday Night Football, so there's a good chance it won't be happening. :/

Haven't forgot though!

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#41 Posted by Hollow_Point (1431 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: did you give up or something?

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#42 Posted by MiracleComeBack (2100 posts) - - Show Bio

Hf blade cuts him clean like he did against massively hypersonic UG aircraft

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#43 Edited by Leo-343 (30909 posts) - - Show Bio

Edit: just noticed this was pre time-skip Luffy. Eh...Still one-sided.

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#44 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@hollow_point: I forgot about this lol. Maybe someday we could pick it back up.

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#45 Edited by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

What? This CaV is still alive?

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#46 Posted by Hollow_Point (1431 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael: I'm trying to revive it yeah

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#47 Posted by Jesusthesefanboys (1049 posts) - - Show Bio

Luffy gets cut up, there was a calc putting raiden at mach 2000 somewhere lol,but whatever lol.

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#48 Edited by logicmarker11 (4 posts) - - Show Bio

@jesusthesefanboys said:

Luffy gets cut up, there was a calc putting raiden at mach 2000 somewhere lol,but whatever lol.

You read that from Outskirt Battledome aka Naruto Forums, which is full of stupid people

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Raiden couldn't even save George when a scientist had a gun to his head and ended up having to bifurcate him instead. He's not mach 2000, or mach 20, or even mach 2 according to Sundowner

Luffy post Alabastsa would obliterate the entire MGR cast