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#1 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

Representing Ragnar Lothbrok:

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@all-father

Representing Jon Snow:

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-Yours Truly

Rules:

  • In character and determined to win. Both combatants are in their prime.
  • No prep or prior knowledge.
  • Ragnar is armed with a sword and an axe, as well as a shield slung across his back.
  • Jon is armed with Longclaw and a dagger.
  • Fight in a neutral environment. Both combatants start 20 ft apart, facing each other.

Voting rules:

  • This is a CaV, not a battle. Please do not discuss who you believe would win while debating is in progress.
  • If you are interested in voting on this battle, just ask and we will tag you when we're done.
  • When you vote, please cast your vote based on the debater and not the character, and please explain the reasoning behind your decision.

Good luck and have fun!

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#2 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by DarthFallax (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V, please. Good luck btw.

Also, TRV arguing for Jon? Never thought that would happen. lol

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#4 Edited by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V, please. Good luck btw.

Also, TRV arguing for Jon? Never thought that would happen. lol

Lol I actually did rep him in a 2v2 CaV that never got past the openers... I don't rate Jon as highly as many others do but I do acknowledge the fact he is very formidable.

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#5 Edited by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father: I can start if you want. I have an opener from that short-lived 2v2 CaV from a while back that I can use as a rough draft already so I can probably get an opener ready within the hour or so.

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#7 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

I have an opener from that short-lived 2v2 CaV from a while back that I can use

That's quite funny as i have one too. It never really passed openers. But you can start, i'll make some edits to it.

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#8 Edited by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father: Alrighty then. I'm a big fan of "Vikings" and I know Ragnar pretty well. He's a very good fighter and this will be one hell of a fight for Jon here, but one I think he can win. So without further ado, let's kick this off.

Jon's theme song for this fight:

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The King in the North:

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We all know who he is. But for those who don't, short recap:

Seriously?? WTF is wrong with you, go watch "Game of Thrones" you f***ing neanderthals.

Anyway, Jon is a very skilled and resourceful fighter, and has some very nice physicals to boot. I am pretty sure his strength is quite better than Ragnar's, and his endurance ("pain tolerance" if you will, although I despise that term) is pretty damn impressive.

Skill:

Jon is a very experienced fighter and has fought many battles against numbers disadvantage, like here at the Battle of Castle Black:

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Also, contrary to popular belief, Jon is perfectly capable of fighting dirty when he needs to. Like here for example, when he spat in Styr's eye:

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I'll withhold more skill-ish showings for later.

Physicals:

Here's one of Jon's better strength feats. It's from the Battle of Hardhome, where he easily blocks a 2-handed blow from a White Walker (important to note that it was after taking a pretty savage beating from that White Walker and having his ribs smashed and most probably broken):

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For comparison, here's what a White Walker can do with a casual bitch-slap (that was Sam that he sent flying, and Sam is pretty damn obese as we all know):

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As for endurance, here you can see Jon taking a savage beating from Styr (a monster of a man, 2 meters of pure muscle), and as you already saw above, Jon was able to fight back despite taking hits that would have knocked any lesser man out cold.

Here's another example for endurance, which I think is quite interesting to consider here. What we have here is Jon, at the Battle of the Frozen Lake (which was a complete bloodbath), taking a leg injury from a wight, yet as you can see he kept of fighting as if nothing happened (take special note that he even kicked another wight away with his injured leg seconds after taking the wound):

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Now, this is very relevant because we can compare this to Ragnar directly. In one of the first episodes of season 1, Ragnar took a leg injury as well, and while he did keep fighting after that, he was limping and barely able to put weight on his injured leg. The wound obviously taxed him greatly:

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So, when it comes to steel meeting flesh - Jon will be able to bear his wounds a lot easier than Ragnar. That's an important advantage to have in a fight like this.

Gear:

Jon's armor is pretty minimal. Most currently, this is his standard garb:

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Steel plate for his chest, neck and upper back, studded boiled leather for the rest of his body. The fur cloak is only when he wants to look "formal", and is not used in battle.

His sword, "Longclaw", is pretty damn huge:

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It is made of Valyrian Steel, which is tougher, sharper and lighter than any normal metal - especially Ragnar's steel which is several centuries less advanced than the late-medieval steel in GoT. It also has some magical properties (that aren't really relevant in this fight lol). In addition, he always carries a dagger for backup.

Summary:

Well, that was a short opener that covered my man's basics. Being one of the most prominent characters in a 7-season TV show, he obviously has a lot more to show, that I will bring up in later posts. I think that as far as physical prowess is concerned, Jon is the superior combatant here by a decent margin. In addition there's his skill, which will be discussed a lot more thoroughly later in the debate, but should be no lesser than Ragnar's, even though they're a lot closer in this category than they are in pure physical stats. There's not much strategy to be discussed here, this is really the most straightforward fight you could imagine, but I will discuss that in later posts as well when needed.

So that's it for now, looking forward to seeing the case you'll make for the King of Denmark against King Aegon of the House Targaryen, sixth of his name, the White Wolf, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, nine hundred and ninety eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, King in the North, Lord of Winterfell, Friend of the Free Folk, the Undead, the Aunt-Lover, Knower of Nothing, rightful Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm.

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#9 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

Ragnars theme for the fight

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Ragnar Lothbrok

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Brief Intro :

Ragnar was just a simple farmer with high ambitions. His ambitions which lead him to becoming Earl of his village he subsequently became a King. Becoming one of the most feared Vikings at his time and being called "The Most Dangerous man on this Earth".

Gear Set :

  • A Standard Viking battle axe
  • A wooden Viking Shield
  • A Sword

Armor :

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Fighting skill :

Side note : Most of Ragnar skilled is showcased during battles, so it might be a bit hard for you to notice them.

Ragnar demonstartes just how skilled he is with a battle axe. Takes out multiple enemies despite being injured.

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Ragnar fights a defeats Earl Haraldson (An opponent who is roughly as skilled as him), whilst already injured and sustaining more injuries through the fight. Something that should be noted as well is how strong the Viking wooden shield is.

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Ragnar shows even more skilled with his Axe and combines it with his sword to make a lethal duo.

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Ragnar shows that even with a heavy shield, he is still capable of using his axe.

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Ragnar cuts down Jarl Borgs men like their nothing, armed with just a sword.

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Despite being surrounded and armed with nothing but a sword, Ragnar still holds his own and cuts down many men while he's at it.

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It should be clear now that Ragnar is extremely skilled with both his axe and sword.

He's also considerably fast. He dodges a spear at near point blank range

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#10 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father: Alright, I will reply as soon as I can.

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#12 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father:

Well, let's kick off round 2!

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Your post focused on showing off Ragnar's skill and speed, so I will start my post with skill and speed showings as well.

Skill:

Jon has less showings than Ragnar does, but as far as quality goes he can certainly contend in the skill category. At Castle Black, as a new recruit, Jon was the best fighter of all the recruits, to the point where putting less than 2 fighters against him was just unfair:

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On another occasion, Jon was pitted against 3 opponents and beat them as well. Take note that they were actually afraid to face him ("Are you sure you want to do this?" -"No"):

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Jon isn't all brute force and basic moves, he knows how to use advanced techniques as well, such as this disarm:

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Another example would be at the Battle of Castle Black, more precisely when Jon dueled Styr, where he unleashed multiple strikes from different angles pretty fast:

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Speed:

Ragnar's spear-dodge was nice, but if we're being fair it still injured him. It gave him a deep cut across the belly (which did take its toll on him as seen in following episodes).

For comparison, Jon has an arrow-timing feat. Here he reacts to, and blocks, several arrows fired by Ramsay Bolton right at the end of the Battle of the Bastards, while actually walking toward him:

That blond archer looks a little like Torstein, don't you think?
That blond archer looks a little like Torstein, don't you think?

What makes this even more impressive is that Ramsay can actually very quick with a bow while maintaining good accuracy:

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While arrow-timing is a very impressive level of speed, Ragnar does not carry a bow here. So here's another feat of reaction speed that might be less impressive than the arrow-timing, but is more relevant to this debate. At the Battle of the Bastards, Jon charged ahead of his army, which brought him face-to-face with Ramsay's cavalry. Standing right in the middle of it, Jon dodged several horses coming at full gallop from several directions with ease, and even sent one rider flying back with great force:

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Jon's additional advantages:

There are other things that Jon brings into the mix here other than skill and physicals, that just don't have that much to discuss.

One such would be the reach advantage. As you have seen in my opener, Longclaw is pretty damn big. It gives him far better reach than Ragnar's arming sword and battleaxe. Not much to discuss here. Reach is a very important advantage to have, as it gives Jon the ability to attack Ragnar without Ragnar being able to attack Jon. Jon can keep Ragnar at a distance and thus keep himself safe from harm.

Another advantage is quality of gear. Valyrian Steel compared to Ragnar's steel is an obvious and immediate advantage. In season 1 of "Vikings", Rollo stated that the Saxons use better steel than the vikings. Seeing as the steel at GoT should be somewhat better than the Saxons' steel (being several centuries more advanced), and that Valyrian Steel is superior to regular GoT steel, I think the advantage here is clear. Jon might even be able to cut through Ragnar's sword or axe (removing axeheads isn't foreign to the vikings - Floki did it to Rollo in one of the videos you posted). Either way, there's the factor of Valyrian Steel also being a lot lighter than regular steel. That makes it easier to manuever, and makes it so it wears the wielder down much less.

Summary:

Well that's it so far. I think it's safe to say that when it comes to physicals, Jon is superior: strength, speed and endurance are all on his side. Skill is a lot closer, but Jon is at least Ragnar's equal in that department as well. Add to that Jon's reach advantage and the superior steel of his weapon, and you have a winning recipe.

Looking forward to your response mate ;)

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#13 Edited by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Nice post. I'll give it a thorough read and get up my counters, since Ragnar doesn't have any note worthy showings in season 4. Side note, we only have 1 voter so if you may, tag some people who might be interested.

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#14 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father: Cool. About the voters, I'll see to it tomorrow as I already shut down my PC and I'm on mobile right now. You can tag people too though if you want.

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#15 Posted by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (17515 posts) - - Show Bio

The King in the North!

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#16 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Old_Blighty (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father:

Yeah, I'll vote when you guys finish......as opposed to before you finish.......I'll vote basically.

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#18 Posted by rogueshadow (29165 posts) - - Show Bio

I just read what's been done so far. T4V.

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#19 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters

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Counters to Skill

Jon has less showings than Ragnar does, but as far as quality goes he can certainly contend in the skill category. At Castle Black, as a new recruit, Jon was the best fighter of all the recruits, to the point where putting less than 2 fighters against him was just unfair:

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I did have a feat like that in my first post but didn't think it was noteworthy enough. Don't think this is really impressive given the fact that it's just sparring.

Jon isn't all brute force and basic moves, he knows how to use advanced techniques as well, such as this disarm:

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Disarming sparring partners is one thing and attempting to replicate them against an opponent who rivals you in skill is a complete different thing.

Another example would be at the Battle of Castle Black, more precisely when Jon dueled Styr, where he unleashed multiple strikes from different angles pretty fast:

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But as you can clearly see, all of his strikes were blocked. If Styr, who is less skilled than Ragnar can manage to block them all, i don't see why Ragnar can't.

Counters to speed

Ragnar's spear-dodge was nice, but if we're being fair it still injured him

That is true. What you missed my friend is that Ragnar continued fighting and killed 3 soldiers consecutively.

For comparison, Jon has an arrow-timing feat. Here he reacts to, and blocks, several arrows fired by Ramsay Bolton right at the end of the Battle of the Bastards, while actually walking toward him:

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Fair play.

That blond archer looks a little like Torstein, don't you think?

Indeed he does.

Counters to Jons other advantages

One such would be the reach advantage. As you have seen in my opener, Longclaw is pretty damn big. It gives him far better reach than Ragnar's arming sword and battleaxe. Not much to discuss here. Reach is a very important advantage to have, as it gives Jon the ability to attack Ragnar without Ragnar being able to attack Jon. Jon can keep Ragnar at a distance and thus keep himself safe from harm.

What Ragnar doesn't have in reach, he makes up in versatility. In the event that Ragnar loses his sword, he can use his axe and shield. His axe can be used as a normal Hack n' Slash weapon or it can be used as throwing weapon. In the unlikable event that Ragnar loses both his weapons, his shield can be used as a weapon itself. It's thick enough to withstand Jons strikes and if used correctly can crush Jons skull.

In season 1 of "Vikings", Rollo stated that the Saxons use better steel than the vikings

It has been addressed multiple times throughout the show that vikings were technologically inferior to their opponents, yet they had no problem going head to head with them in battles. If my memory serves me correct, i don't recall a single viking sword breaking in battle against either the saxons or french.

Seeing as the steel at GoT should be somewhat better than the Saxons' steel (being several centuries more advanced), and that Valyrian Steel is superior to regular GoT steel, I think the advantage here is clear.

But you can clearly see that Long Claw was trading strikes with standard weapons and not breaking them. Styr was blocking Jons hits with the wooden part of his axe and it failed to cut through it.

In Summary

Either than a slight advantage is Strength and Speed, Jon doesn't really have much of an advantage here. His reach superiority can be negated by Ragnars versatility. The quality of Jons weapon is not really an advantage when you can see that it was not breaking standard GoT steel, which is more or less equal to Saxon and Frankish steel and Vikings never really had a problem with them.

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#20 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by FatherChaos (2664 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#22 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father: Cool. I will reply later today.

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#23 Posted by the_wspanialy (3902 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father: Damn right I am. T4V please. And good luck to you both.

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#24 Edited by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father: I had a long day and had no time to write a reply so it's gonna have to wait till tomorrow mate.

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#25 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: No worries. I think i might be done tho. I've presented all of Ragnars feats and counters, don't think i have anything else to post after you do. So if you'd like, after you your post is up we start the voting?

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#26 Edited by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father: You should make another post after mine though, so at least we'll each have 3. Summarize your points or somthing.

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#27 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father:

Round 3 it is then!

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Well your response was a bit short, so mine will be as well. I still think you should make one last post yourself as well after that though.

Skill:

I did have a feat like that in my first post but didn't think it was noteworthy enough. Don't think this is really impressive given the fact that it's just sparring.

Sparring it may be, but Jon still fodderized literally anyone they put against him, even when outnumbered 3 to 1. Even still, he was always able to conveniently contend with enemies who had him outnumbered. in real war as well as in sparring, as seen in my opener.

Disarming sparring partners is one thing and attempting to replicate them against an opponent who rivals you in skill is a complete different thing.

While that is true, it still shows Jon's skill and knowledge on advanced techniques. He disarmed Styr as well though.

But as you can clearly see, all of his strikes were blocked. If Styr, who is less skilled than Ragnar can manage to block them all, i don't see why Ragnar can't.

First of all, I'd contest the point that Ragnar is so far above Styr. Styr was the Magnar of the Thenns, one of the most feared and respected Wildling chieftains. He was butchering men left and right at the Battle of Castle Black, the man was an absolute beast - not just strength-wise but also skill-wise. He never got touched once in the whole battle until he fought Jon.

Be that as it may, it still shows Jon's skill. Ragnar would probably be able to block a flurry of blows from Jon, true, but that doesn't mean he's gonna have an easy time with it. Ragnar's never fought anyone as skilled as Jon, barring Rollo - and that fight never even ended, and in addition Rollo had the upper hand there (Ragnar did a number on him but Rollo was in a more favorable position when the fight was interrupted, Ragnar was barely able to fight back at that point). Jon might not be out of Ragnar's league skill-wise, but Ragnar will have to push himself to the limits to keep up nonetheless. A flurry of blows like that from Jon could be the end for Ragnar here.

Speed:

That is true. What you missed my friend is that Ragnar continued fighting and killed 3 soldiers consecutively.

I did not miss that, but that's a little irrelevant considering Jon's superior reaction feats, as well as his superior endurance feats. Look at the beating he got from Styr, and was still able to fight after that - Ragnar would have blacked out in Jon's place. And again there's the comparison I made with the leg injury.

Misc advantages:

What Ragnar doesn't have in reach, he makes up in versatility. In the event that Ragnar loses his sword, he can use his axe and shield. His axe can be used as a normal Hack n' Slash weapon or it can be used as throwing weapon. In the unlikable event that Ragnar loses both his weapons, his shield can be used as a weapon itself. It's thick enough to withstand Jons strikes and if used correctly can crush Jons skull.

Actually, Jon has very good experience fighting dual-wielding opponents. He's been fighting Wildlings for 4 whole seasons of the show, which are known to use that technique. He was even teaching his fellow Night's Watch men how to counter it:

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Yes, I am aware that Grenn isn't as skilled as Ragnar, but the point was that Jon knows how to counter a man using 2 weapons. Ragnar using the axe for throwing is unlikely given how close to one another they are in this fight. The shield is a good thing to have, and will give Ragnar good defensive options, but it isn't all that durable. Both Ragnar's shield and Earl Haraldson's shield broke in half within less than a minute of their duel, and Jon's sword being tougher and sharper than anything Ragnar had ever heard of would help him get rid of the shield even faster.

It has been addressed multiple times throughout the show that vikings were technologically inferior to their opponents, yet they had no problem going head to head with them in battles. If my memory serves me correct, i don't recall a single viking sword breaking in battle against either the saxons or french.

I don't remember that happening either, but vikings' weapons did break in combat against other vikings. Ragnar's sword broke clean in half when he dueled Haraldson, and Floki was able to lob off Rollo's axehead in this battle that you posted:

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In any case, again I will mention that Valyrian Steel is leaps and bounds above anything Ragnar has ever heard of. If anything can wreck viking weapons, it's gonna be Longclaw.

But you can clearly see that Long Claw was trading strikes with standard weapons and not breaking them. Styr was blocking Jons hits with the wooden part of his axe and it failed to cut through it.

Never said Jon will slice through Ragnar's weapons within seconds of the battle, but given some time it will happen. I don't think Ragnar's weapons will withstand too many blows from Jon.

Summary:

In closing, I think that Jon's superior physicals in all categories put him at an immediate advantage here. His skill is at least equal, if not superior to that of Ragnar as well. In addition, he has superior reach, lots of experience fighting dual-wielders such as Ragnar, and a weapon made of far superior metal than anything Ragnar has ever faced, which might very well cut through Ragnar's weapons considering how viking swords and axes were cut through by regular steel before.

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#28 Edited by ANTHP2000 (25709 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag folks

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#29 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Nice post. I'll try and post my final post in a couple of hours.

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#30 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

Final counters

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Even still, he was always able to conveniently contend with enemies who had him outnumbered.

Ragnar has done the same as well, with less advanced weaponry and armor.

First of all, I'd contest the point that Ragnar is so far above Styr. Styr was the Magnar of the Thenns, one of the most feared and respected Wildling chieftains. He was butchering men left and right at the Battle of Castle Black, the man was an absolute beast - not just strength-wise but also skill-wise.

That is a discussion for another debate (or maybe another CaV).

Ragnar would probably be able to block a flurry of blows from Jon, true, but that doesn't mean he's gonna have an easy time with it.

Even if he doesn't have any time with it, they're not going to take a heavy toll on him.

Ragnar's never fought anyone as skilled as Jon

Earl Harladson was quite skilled, in fact he actually tagged Ragnar, something most people even dream of.

barring Rollo - and that fight never even ended, and in addition Rollo had the upper hand there (Ragnar did a number on him but Rollo was in a more favorable position when the fight was interrupted, Ragnar was barely able to fight back at that point).

I wouldn't actually account for that fight, given the fact it was just them going pound for pound and not using any weapons. When it was first interrupted, Ragnar pulled out the hook and wanted to continue fighting but his men pulled him back. As seen :

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Jon might not be out of Ragnar's league skill-wise, but Ragnar will have to push himself to the limits to keep up nonetheless. A flurry of blows like that from Jon could be the end for Ragnar here.

Not really. I already addressed this above, they might not be easily blocked as you said but they won't tire and exhaust him to the point of where he is no longer able to fight.

Ragnar would have blacked out in Jon's place

No, he wouldn't. He went pound for pound with Rollo, someone who is physically superior to him and didn't KOed.

He was even teaching his fellow Night's Watch men how to counter it

How to counter wildlings using them, not highly trained Vikings who are experts in using them.

Both Ragnar's shield and Earl Haraldson's shield broke in half within less than a minute of their duel

But you're missing a crucial point. They didn't break because of sword strikes, they broke because each man started bashing the other mans shield with his.

Summary

Whilst Jon may have a slight advantage in speed and strength, Ragnar has the slight advantage in speed and versatility with his weaponry. Jon may have experience in fighting 2 weapon wielding opponents, none were Vikings, a people who have mastered the battle axe. As i mentioned before, i don't believe that Long Claw will be a deciding factor. True it is made out of Valerian steel, but it doesn't cut any weapons it faces in half in battle, i don't see how it will cut Ragnars weaponery.

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#31 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by rogueshadow (29165 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting for TRV, a couple of the arguments for Ragnar felt a little circular at points (specifically regarding Earl Haraldson). Longclaw's superiority was well argued, the difference between the characters isn't really very large so the feats on display weren't that disparate but I felt TRV argued his points a little better when all's said and done.

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#35 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting for TRV, a couple of the arguments for Ragnar felt a little circular at points (specifically regarding Earl Haraldson). Longclaw's superiority was well argued, the difference between the characters isn't really very large so the feats on display weren't that disparate but I felt TRV argued his points a little better when all's said and done.

Mod vote = 2 normal votes!!! =P

Srsly though, thanks mate.

Also, bump.

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#37 Posted by DarthFallax (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

A interesting and nice CaV. I'm voting for Viper as well, though it's a pretty hard decision. The biggest advantadge of Viper was imo the gear, though All-Father convinced me that Jon can't cut through the shield (or won't at least). That being said, Jon's strenght and the videos of the Viking weapons breaking convinced me that Jon could possibly do it to the Axe/Sword. Skill and speed seem pretty even to me from the feats you two posted as well, and I wasn'slight vote tont convinced that Ragnar would succesfully win through a axe throw.

So, I'm voting for TRV, but you did a pretty good job All-Father.

This CaV also reminds me that I need to watch Vikings. Well, only 50 or so episodes are between me and the staet of a new series lol

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#38 Posted by the_wspanialy (3902 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't help but think that @all-father missied few opportunities to counter some of @the_red_viper's arguments:

  • Jon's feats against his fellow trainees from the Watch could be easily countered by the fact that while Jon has several years of formal training under Rodrik Cassel (a veteran of both Robert and Greyjoy's Rebelions), other recruts were pesants and petty criminals (and according to both Jeor Mormont and Tyrion Lannister they have most likely never seen a sword prior to their arrival to Castle Black, less alone have any formal training)
  • Jon's familiarity with dual wielding style of combat and the reach advantage provided by Longclaw could be easily countered by bringing his fight with Karl Tanner who, despite wielding two daggers, has no problems with Jon's reach and was actually winning the fight. Besides, having shield at his disposall, Ragnar would most likely start with combination of shield and one of his weapons, leaving dual wielding as a fallback option.
  • Jon was wearing a set of thick leathers during the mission beyond the Wall (which has most likely reduced the effectivness of the cut he received). Ragnar was in his "civies" during his fight with Earl Haraldson's men. And it's not like Ragnar doesn't have other examples of superior durability and combat longevity. Continuing fighting despite slash to the gut (from mentioned spear) comes to mind.
  • I think it's save to say that (maybe with an exception of the Boltons) Ragnar regularly fights with superrior fodder. Wildlings are more fercious than skilled, while Vikings, Saxons and Franks have better equipment, training and discipline.
  • Due to it's build (hook-like blade) an axe is an excellent weapon to disarm enemies, as we've already seen during the fight between Jon and Styr, when the latter legitimately disarmed Jon.
  • For all that talk about Valyrian steel superiority, we have yet to see Jon cutting through swords, axes and shields. If Styr's axe was able to withstand multiple strikes from Longclaw (and wildlings weapons are generaly considered worse than those south of the Wall) without any signs of damage, then Ragnar's thick wooden shield would as well.

That being said, I still vote for all-father. While Viper proved beyond doubt that Jon is slightly stronger and faster than Ragnar, these advantages wouldn't be enough to overcome Ragnar's versitility, experience and skills, which all-father highlighted. Also, Viper spent too much time presenting Longclaw as some sort of unbeatable trump card.

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#39 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_wspanialy: Thanks for the pointers (And the vote), however i am certain i did address the last one.

But you can clearly see that Long Claw was trading strikes with standard weapons and not breaking them. Styr was blocking Jons hits with the wooden part of his axe and it failed to cut through it.

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#40 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (15972 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#42 Posted by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (17515 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes towards TRV. Most of the feats and direct comparisons leaned in Jon's favor, and there were some missed opportunities to exploit some of Jon's scans that HF didn't take advantage of and frankly is kinda misrepresentation in TRV's corner. One namely example is the early fight against the new recruits(Gren and crew) - people who as Tyrion stated had most likely never even wielded a sword before those first days much less trained to use one.

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#43 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Edited by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

As it stands, the score is 3 - 1 in favor of TRV. 4 more voters left.

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#45 Posted by Old_Blighty (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father: @the_red_viper:

I'm going to give the win to TRV. The main reason is more to do with AF's concessions than anything. This is a fight that is decided through three things:

  1. Skill
  2. Physicals
  3. Weaponry

The fact that Jon clearly had the better weaponry/gear was evident. This left two things to argue, one of which was completely given to TRV with little to no argument. This meant that TRV only needed to argue that Jon was skilled enough not to be killed. The fact that he showed that the two were more or less equal in the only debatable point made the whole thing pretty cut/dry for me.

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#46 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

As it currently stands, 4-1 in favor of TRV, 3 more votes left.

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for voters.

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#48 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (15972 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Oh sh*t, I'll read it and try to give a vote this weekend if it's still open.

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#49 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio
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