@neongamewave: I haven't posted until now (mostly helping Prince in pm's) but I'm going to because of your attempt to lowball DS.
First of all, even ignoring the fact that the Uriel/DS clash is a better destruction feat than anything DBZ has ever shown in its entire history (and don't kid yourself, it is) you also posted those scans completely unaware that DS later broke the barrier of hell on his own later in the fight thus invalidating your attempt to lowball.
Please don't lowball using Bastard! scans in the future, since you clearly haven not read the manga. In fact, there are more feats of him displaying that power too.
@neongamewave: I haven't posted until now (mostly helping Prince in pm's) but I'm going to because of your attempt to lowball DS.
First of all, even ignoring the fact that the Uriel/DS clash is a better destruction feat than anything DBZ has ever shown in its entire history (and don't kid yourself, it is) you also posted those scans completely unaware that DS later broke the barrier of hell on his own later in the fight thus invalidating your attempt to lowball.
Please don't lowball using Bastard! scans in the future, since you clearly haven not read the manga. In fact, there are more feats of him displaying that power too.
I'll let Prince respond to the rest in detail.
I didn`t lowball Darshe at all, actually DBZ is being lowballed as you yourself have done so just now and its extremely false to claim that Darshe`s fight with Uriel was greater than any or all Dragon Ball destruction level feats. Also you misinterpreted my stance as well as point, my point is that it usually takes a clash of two great powers to create a certain impact yet Dragon Ball characters have been able to create universal level destruction on their own.
First, Darshe didn`t create that impact on his own he did so with another collision of equal power, I explained this recently in my response to Prince.
Second, Janemba in base form has been able to manipulate the entire Dragon Ball multiverse and break open the underworld simultaneously having all of the souls escape as well as reanimate themselves in the living plane. Manipulating all dimensions in existence including Hell itself is far more impressive than destroying a universe as a side-effect in a clash that contributes a portion of your efforts along with the other.
Third, SSJ4 Gogeta is far above Janemba even his first form which was Super Saiyan 1 was able to stomp Super Janemba who ascended to maximum power. I don`t see how Darshe is going to prove anything different when going up against SSJ4 Gogeta other than having a unique versatility set and a few challenging complications.
I`m actually fairly knowledgeable on the manga and it seems to me that your not too well educated on the lore of Dragon Ball so the same could be said in reverse but there`s no need for a jump into assumptions.
@neongamewave: I just showed you DS did on his own, so your entire point is completely invalid.
And I'm not even going to respond the rest of your claims, because they are (as usual) extremely over-exaggerated and full of hyperbole.
If you were as knowledgeable as you claimed you were, you would have not tried to downplay DS/Uriel clash, because you would have known DS later did it on his own and has a couple more feats of the same level too. So, no you aren't.
And just because I don't exaggerate DBZ characters, doesn't mean I don't know what they're capable of..
@neongamewave: I just showed you DS did on his own, so your entire point is completely invalid.
I`ve seen the feat and I`m not trying to deny that he`s an impressive power my point is that his much higher feats are nothing really special in comparison to the much weaker Dragon Ball characters demonstrated feats so my point still stands, Prince even made an argument earlier during the debate that SSJ4 Gogeta wouldn`t be able to match that power which is very untrue.
And I'm not even going to respond the rest of your claims, because they are (as usual) extremely over-exaggerated and full of hyperbole.
So you label my points with just assumptions and names this doesn`t make you look any more factual or smarter to that of what I have actually addressed. I`m actually avoiding power-scale if I included it, Darshe`s chances would only become more slim.
If you were as knowledgeable as you claimed you were, you would have not tried to downplay DS/Uriel clash, because you would have known DS later did it on his own and has a couple more feats of the same level too. So, no you aren't.
You still don`t understand my point then and how did I lowball the feat when I showed feats of many Dragon Ball characters who are showing feats of the same caliber as well as above? I even acknowledged the feat many times and I already pointed to the fact that Darshe is very powerful the problem is this feat like many other related feats from other characters seems to be hinging too much on the idea of it being a singular feat regardless if replicated later or not under certain circumstances you still seem to not understand the main picture in my point.
And just because I don't exaggerate DBZ characters, doesn't mean I don't know what they're capable of..
And in what way did I exaggerate? Buu literally ripping apart dimensions? BASE Janemba doing what Darshe has done but only better by manipulating the multiverse itself? Where did I exactly factor in power scale and in what way did I try to shove the feats down as facts like some Dragon Ball fanatics do?
And in what way did I exaggerate? Buu literally ripping apart dimensions? BASE Janemba doing what Darshe has done but only better by manipulating the multiverse itself? Where did I exactly factor in power scale and in what way did I try to shove the feats down as facts like some Dragon Ball fanatics do?
Because the feats are not comparable. Janemba breaking dimensions is not the same as DS breaking dimensions. You want to know why? Because in Bastard! this feat is QUANTIFIED for us according to the rules of Bastard!. Lucifer tells us EXACTLY how much power is required to do that.
DBZ on the other hand, did not.
Therefore, just because its the same concept, does mean its the same power level whatsoever. Just because Lucifer tells us the dimensional barrier in Bastard! requires big bang level energy to break, doesn't mean every dimensional barrier in all of fiction requires the same. Trying to claim Janemba has that power because another character in a different Manga said so, would be ridiculous.
Therefore, Janemba's feat cannot be compared whatsoever to DS'. And that is even ignoring the fact that DBZ, DBZ Movies and DBGT are all 3 seperate continuities from each other, which is how you end up with someone like Broly who has better destruction feats that just about anyone (and even that is heavily debated by dbz fans)
I could keep going, but Prince is doing fine and I said I was going to stop (I will).
But anyway - do not post things you do not understand the context of, thanks.
That's like when everyone posts the scan of Thanos blasting Galactus, despite the fact on the next page Galactus shrugs it off and Thanos states he knew the blast would do nothing.
And in what way did I exaggerate? Buu literally ripping apart dimensions? BASE Janemba doing what Darshe has done but only better by manipulating the multiverse itself? Where did I exactly factor in power scale and in what way did I try to shove the feats down as facts like some Dragon Ball fanatics do?
Because the feats are not comparable. Janemba breaking dimensions is not the same as DS breaking dimensions. You want to know why? Because in Bastard! this feat is QUANTIFIED for us according to the rules of Bastard!. Lucifer tells us EXACTLY how much power is required to do that.
And why is that? So what, by that logic that means we would have to lowball Janemba and what Akira the author himself had to say about the Dragon Ball universe also it doesn`t change the fact that what Janemba did is much more impressive considering he did it with ease, on his own terms and at his weakest you haven`t actually debunked anything.
DBZ on the other hand, did not.
So your going to forget what the characters themselves say in regards to what Janemba did such as the Kais themselves, Goku and etc who sense ki levels? The Kais and other beings even confirmed that Janemba affected ALL OF REALITY and then Goku furthered this as fact...
Therefore, just because its the same concept, does mean its the same power level whatsoever. Just because Lucifer tells us the dimensional barrier in Bastard! requires big bang level energy to break, doesn't mean every dimensional barrier in all of fiction requires the same. Trying to claim Janemba has that power because another character in a different Manga said so, would be ridiculous.
Couldn`t that go both ways by your logic? Also the fact that the Dragon Ball universe is basically the same as in reality or more, just goes to show what level these characters operate on and my point is that Janemba`s FEATS are greater in compared to Darshe`s because of what is being displayed he didn`t blow it up he warped it entirely with his own raw power that is more impressive, I don`t see the problem here especially since were debating two different characters from two different universes anyway such as Darshe and Gogeta...
Therefore, Janemba's feat cannot be compared whatsoever to DS'. And that is even ignoring the fact that DBZ, DBZ Movies and DBGT are all 3 seperate continuities from each other, which is how you end up with someone like Broly who has better destruction feats that just about anyone (and even that is heavily debated by dbz fans)
That is you not wanting it to be compared due to the fact that you haven`t actually debunked a thing you only complained about how their from two universes and how they are fundamentally different which is obvious from the get-go going by the nature of what`s being debated also I don`t see how that actually debunks my point of Janemba`s feat being in fact better than what Darshe can do, also did you know that GT itself is a non-canon form of source material? Were debating a non canon character, DBZ: Battle Of Gods nullifies GT and GT even follows the same path of Z but it makes its own pathway within the continuity as do the movies so I don`t see what the problem is their all apart of the same multiverse regardless just in different realities as confirmed by the author Akira Toriyama and even recently by Bills as well as Whis.
I could keep going, but Prince is doing fine and I said I was going to stop (I will).
Then why didn`t you in the first place, just asking...
But anyway - do not post things you do not understand the context of, thanks.
I actually understand the contexts you seem not to, your only doing the following:
1. Throwing around words and calling my perspectives certain names without actually delving deep into my point to have it respectfully debunked.
2. Complaining about how certain things are without actually understanding them.
That's like when everyone posts the scan of Thanos blasting Galactus, despite the fact on the next page Galactus shrugs it off and Thanos states he knew the blast would do nothing.
Why does that matter here, its not relevant and you seem to be lowballing that impressive showing yet you call me a lowballer. Its not about hurting Galactus its the fact that Thanos has been able to take on or survive an encounter with certain caliber characters and even in the NEXT pages Galactus remarks that Thanos` personal energy shields are pretty impressive for what he expected of him in regards to resisting his cosmic power so what is your point?
Like you said previously that this is going to be your last response to me well I know one thing is for sure and that is the fact that this is going to be my last response to you. I believe its best we follow through with this, I`m not really liking the arguments being posted here they are very irrelevant and bar confusing or condescending to what`s important, I read all of your arguments word for word you seemed to not have read the 100% of mine so of course the clarity may seem off balance to you and the nature of your arguments seem to be pointing to this as fact.
The reason why Goku is being pierced by needles or just plain old glass is because of PIS which is proven with the glass case as Goku opened his eyes once it happened due to him being blinded by the Ice Dragon the glass was a way to introduce an idea to why he would receive his eyesight back this is a big misconception similar to the 40 tons case during Dragon Ball Z, and I doubt Gogeta would even forget to maintain his ki control. A very weakened Teen Goku tanked a nuke-like blast from an evil and tyrannical Piccolo so it isn`t all that impressive also Frieza has been able to tank multi-planetary explosions without actual ki.
Not really. DBZ characters have shown that they can amp their durability with ki, but they cannot tank attacks they can dish out.
For example, Gohan was capable of taking on cell's kamehameha, but he was sure he couldn't tank it.
We have two instances of them being hurt by low level things, one would be needle and other would be glass.
Goku being unable to lift 40 tons isn't a misconception. He was using air-dance technique at the time iirc, which makes it far harder to carry weight.
I'm not saying gogeta forgets his ki control. What I'm saying is, without amping durability, darsh massively outclasses gogeta. Even with amped durability he's far superior, but still.
A multiversal Spirit Bomb would make short work of him actually and I don`t see how it would protect Darshe in the slightest.
Not at all. Why? three reasons:
1. Gogeta cannot form a multiversal spirit bomb.
2. Spirit bomb always has finite energy. No matter how strong, it isn't getting past an infinite energy barrier.
3. Besides, Darsh could just absorb it.
Gogeta could just create multiple clones of himself and many Dragon Ball Z characters can create barriers of their own.
Dividing in weaker clones doesn't make a difference. And DS can create his own clones. And barriers.
Dispel Bound will be an issue but I`m pretty sure Gogeta would be able to break through every single one of them with his Big Bang attacks.
No. For two reasons:
1. Gogeta doesn't have big bang attacks in the first place. He has an attack simply called 'big bang!'. Doesn't mean it is.
Does using 'reduce all creation to ashes' mean it's a reality-buster attack? No.
2. Big bang level explosion didn't even scratch the dispel bound. Literally all seraphs were fine.
I don`t see how Gogeta wouldn`t be able to nullify and bypass it easily when weaker Z characters have been able to reduce many individuals of great regeneration to ash such as Buu, Cell and Omega Shenron even a universal demon such as Super Janemba did not do well against a SSJ1 Gogeta....
So Darshe isn`t anything new not even to the infinitely weaker Dragon Ball characters overall who casually deal with different types of regeneration even in the Movies....
Because Z characters never even get close to atomic level regeneration. They can neither nullify it or bye-pass it. The character with the best regeneration was cell, and he could only come back from... a cell.
They have absolutely no way to overwhelm space/time reconstruction.
Actually Kid Buu has come back from nothing before during his final fight with Goku and Vegeta as shown during that battle also it doesn`t actually matter since infinitely weaker Dragon Ball characters with less ki have managed to beat them a SSJ4 Gogeta was able to destroy Omega who had to use the reality warping and the magic of the Dragon Balls to help regenerate yet it didn`t help him against Gogeta who was only playing around the whole time. I don`t see Darshe being able to survive a Stardust Breaker from SSJ4 Gogeta a SSJ1 Gogeta was able to stomp the universal/dimensional/space manipulator Super Janemba and stop him from regenerating targeting his soul and existence which the Stardust Breaker did. Keep in mind that this wasn`t even a SSJ4 Gogeta in the slightest it was a SSJ 1 Gogeta and Super Janemba can easily be compared to Darshe being able to blow up a universe or just control it with raw power which is far more impressive than to what Darshe could do on his own power this is ultimately nothing new to the Saiyans let me reiterate this fact.
Proof that kid buu came back from nothing? He was just blasted to fragments invisible to eye. Doesn't mean he can regenerate back at even cellular level like cell.
I'm not sure where it says shenron can regenerate back at cellular level.
Gogeta's star dust breaker never even came close to overcoming molecular regeneration. Useless.
Being a space manipulator means nothing in actual combat. Haruhi is several billion times better a warper than all of Z warpers, including shenron, put together, yet she could die from a bullet.
Kid Goku has been able to destroy an entire reality with his lowest potential, SSJ1 Gogeta outperformed Super Janemba`s ki energy and that ranges in universal/dimensional/space/time/multiversal level, SSJ4 Gogeta reverted Omega`s reality warping and magic back to zero with just raw force and he wasn`t even at 100% Super Saiyan Vegito repelled Super Buuhan`s universal destroying ki energy with his own and Buuhan`s energy was so great in that instance that it managed to travel across all dimensions having them torn apart like paper yet Vegito managed to stop him head on this goes to show the true power of a fusion and there are even themes behind them. What makes Darshe`s Dispel Bound so special other than that its epic, lol.
Shattering a reality that needed only galaxy lighting power: Useless.
Janemba's Ki: Maybe multigalaxy+: Useless.
Dragon's magic: Planetary level: Useless.
Super buuhan's shield: Maybe multigalaxy: Useless.
(vegetto didn't stop the attack itself. He stopped buu from screaming by breaking through the shield.)
Darshe's dispel bound consists of countless regenerating shields unscathed by big bang level explosion. Gogeta doesn't even come close to scathing it.
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I will stop this weirdness here, and put it in a spoiler block. Sorry to do that, but I have to Because I'm not seeing any credible point in your argument. Here's why:
1. First, you're confusing warping power with actual fighting power. Many characters who can warp entire realities have defense and offense of less than a city block. What matters in a fight is your battle capabilities, not your warping capabilities. That is, unless you can warp people out of existance.
I'm not saying janemba/buuhan/shenron are block level. They're obviously galaxy+ busters. But their busting power doesn't even matter when it comes to a universe. Their warping power, useless in a fight, is a lot bigger:
- Janemba warped the check-in station, which in turn caused the universe to be affected, as king yamma said. Anyone blowing up the check in station can do the same.
- Kid buu caused the dimensions to collapse on one another, threatening universal distortion. Like.. altering few bricks in a wall oddly can make it collapse.
- Shenron used negative energy, which affected the planet and cosmos around it. It'll take him trillions of years to 'lay waste to the universe' at that pace. Even with warping, he doesn't classify as universe buster.
2. Second, you're confusing dimensions with universes.
Ichigo's power up shatters dimensions. Doesn't mean he's universal+. Kid goku isn't even galactic level. Still his kamehameha destroys a dimension. Base darsh can create alternate dimension as a side effect of a spell (It basically sends the target and the spell in other dimension to stop it from destroying the real world)
Creating/Breaking dimensions doesn't mean anything, unless it's energy value is absolutely specified.
3. You're confusing attack names with actual attack power.
Planetary rasengan! Doesn't mean planet bust.
Univeral spirit bomb! Doesn't mean universal.
Big bang kamehameha! Doesn't mean it has power equal to the big bang.
"Reduce all creation to ashes!" Doesn't mean all-creation levelling attack.
Funnily enough, if you go by that logic, Super saiyan vegeta in android arc has equal attack power to ss4 gogeta and vegitto. Considering DBZ, that's highly improbable ;) :p
And if you say it is, the gogeta has already lost..
4. Third, you're confusing Z characters regen with DS's regen, which is infinitely better for many reasons:
One: best dbz has to deliver is coming back from being reduced to a cell. Impressive by Z standards, but not worth mentioning to the likes of DS and uriel. They have space/time reconstitution, and come back from atomic disintegration.
Second: They can't regenerate indefinitely. They take time to regenerate, and overloading their physical body means they can't come back. Cell: killed, didn't continue to regen. Buu: killed, not continue to regen. Because they cannot exist without their physical body.
DS? They'll have to keep overcoming him regen infinitely, and we see DBZ characters get tired after a single fight.
5. Gogeta, no matter what he does, has no way to get past eternal atoms. You suggested two ways:
Multiversal Spirit bomb: Useless. Wiping out his physical body means nothing, even if he doesn't absorb it, or doesn't tank it with dispel bound.
Star dust breaker: Useless. Attacking his soul means nothing. Same as above.
They have no technique that can simultaneously attack every plane. Hell, no way to harm him on mental/astral plane at all.
6. Gogeta still has no way to get past Dispel bound.
Gogeta's best attack is a massively multi-galaxy busting kamehameha/spirit bomb gathered from multiverse.
Dispel bound protected DS against a big bang. He has no way to even scratch it.
Even if he does scratch it, it will regenerate. DB has countless shields. Gogeta doesn't have unlimited energy.
7. Gogeta has no way to get past the infinite-energy barrier on his skin.
Same reasons as above.
8. Addressing the point about side effect:
Are you trying to support me in DS is a big bang level guy or what?
Guys on odin's level are proven galaxy busters. Mephisto is a galaxy buster in full form, and the fight is taking place in his own realm. Galactus destroys galaxies..
Yet.. Side effect of two beings on galactic+ level? Shattering stars.
Darkseid is multiplanet level by himself.
Sensui can destroy mountains with a punch. Yet, hundreds of hits exchanged in the fight? Destruction is nowhere close.
Want an example in DBZ?
Gohan and Cell exchanged solar system level kamehameha. Didn't even destroy the district.
The destruction in a fight is dramatically reduced.
Yet, DS and uriel exchanged an infinitely stronger attack, whose side effect was big bang level explosion.
Unless you want to go by just what is shown, In which case gogeta's beaten before he starts, I don't see why we should apply double standard to DS for the sake of this debate.
In a debate calculations are always used, that's how you determine there power and speed and such, and Frieza is capable of producing more energy than is necisary to destroy a star, whether you wanna call him a star buster or not is your choice, but its foolish to think he cant star bust when he already proved he can destroy something harder to destroy than a star.
No it isn't. Even Frieza showed that level of attack in his first form. And Broly showed he had beyond that destroying the south galaxy in a short time, and Buu even galaxy busted,a nd buuhan was even gonna collapse the universe, it says supernova's, as in there punches and basic attacks were at that level, there super attacks exceed Broly and Cell who are Solar system+, and Kid Buu who galaxy busted.
V-jump is still official and canon, and the piece that it was stated in was battle of gods SD which AT directed that basically showed the start of the movie to promote it. And the trailer again is official and canon. And its not retconed, GOhan still has SSJ in the movie, you see it when they go SSJ for Goku to go SSJG.
Really, your gonna try and call these inconsistent. They consistently go from moon to planet to star to solar system to galaxy level. They have many ftl and mftl feats. Then look at DS, hes only ftl due to the one seraph calc by scaling, not even his feat. He has never planet busted or anything, his only feat that gives him high DC is the black abyss feat and with most attacks he uses he does little AOE damage. When it comes to inconsistent most characters only show there best feats once or twice, ive listed a string of feats that show consistent progress in DBZ, so trying to dismiss the many feats ive shown as inconsistent is really hypocritical when using a guy like DS and calling him mftl and galaxy buster based on two feats, one of which isn't even his own.
The reason why Goku is being pierced by needles or just plain old glass is because of PIS which is proven with the glass case as Goku opened his eyes once it happened due to him being blinded by the Ice Dragon the glass was a way to introduce an idea to why he would receive his eyesight back this is a big misconception similar to the 40 tons case during Dragon Ball Z, and I doubt Gogeta would even forget to maintain his ki control. A very weakened Teen Goku tanked a nuke-like blast from an evil and tyrannical Piccolo so it isn`t all that impressive also Frieza has been able to tank multi-planetary explosions without actual ki.
Not really. DBZ characters have shown that they can amp their durability with ki, but they cannot tank attacks they can dish out.
Actually its quite true it was a plot device many agree that it was also Goku wasn`t expecting to touch the glass in some cases they do require ki amps but its to different degrees so its all based on context.
For example, Gohan was capable of taking on cell's kamehameha, but he was sure he couldn't tank it.
Well that doesn`t exactly mean he couldn`t, I mean Frieza tanked Goku`s Kamehameha and he survived a planetary explosion yet he`s weaker than Gohan or Goku, I`m pretty sure they could tank it, it all depends on ki control which Akira described in many of his interviews.
We have two instances of them being hurt by low level things, one would be needle and other would be glass.
Its like saying Wonder Woman can tank mountain-planetary level explosions which usually does and she gets pierced by really sharp objects its more of a vulnerability than a full blown weakness same thing with Frieza who got cut up by Trunks its not a low showing by any means its very contextual that alone should tell you that its more complicated than you thought.
Goku being unable to lift 40 tons isn't a misconception. He was using air-dance technique at the time iirc, which makes it far harder to carry weight.
And I don`t disagree actually it is a misconception because of the false beliefs based on the idea that he can`t lift 40 tons when many fail to understand he wasn`t only just utilizing a technique but he was utilizing a technique while airborne on a planet with many more times the gravity also Goku already wears weights on his body the reason why I refer to the 40 tons is because the glass situation is quite similar a lot of individuals are naive on what actually happened and many don`t know that Goku utilized a technique to wield the weights, that my point.
I'm not saying gogeta forgets his ki control. What I'm saying is, without amping durability, darsh massively outclasses gogeta. Even with amped durability he's far superior, but still.
This has not proven in the slightest only assumed and stated the point is ki control won`t be an issue since it wouldn`t be off-balance to begin with and Gogeta has enough raw power to bypass Darshe`s regeneration.
A multiversal Spirit Bomb would make short work of him actually and I don`t see how it would protect Darshe in the slightest.
Not at all. Why? three reasons:
1. Gogeta cannot form a multiversal spirit bomb.
Yes he can, Kid Goku formed an official Universal Spirit Bomb and his ki far below of that of Gogeta who is easily multiversal level.
2. Spirit bomb always has finite energy. No matter how strong, it isn't getting past an infinite energy barrier.
I doubt it, sounds quite like a no limits fallacy to me but I`m sure it would factor in some damage considering it would by targeting things beyond the physical ki is a very spiritual concept and conduit when you think about it.
3. Besides, Darsh could just absorb it.
True and that`s a good point but I doubt Gogeta would make it easy for him especially several Gogeta`s, even if it were to fail he`s not going to be absorbing a Stardust Breaker that would only it make it easier for Gogeta to kill him.
Gogeta could just create multiple clones of himself and many Dragon Ball Z characters can create barriers of their own.
Dividing in weaker clones doesn't make a difference. And DS can create his own clones. And barriers.
It will since Gogeta has the greater power overall and he could command them better also Gogeta has already broken through very powerful barriers with just a burst of his energy he broke through reality warping as well as magic.
Dispel Bound will be an issue but I`m pretty sure Gogeta would be able to break through every single one of them with his Big Bang attacks.
No. For two reasons:
1. Gogeta doesn't have big bang attacks in the first place. He has an attack simply called 'big bang!'. Doesn't mean it is.
That`s what I mean by Big Bang attack, also its a universal attack its the same power as a universal spirit bomb.
Does using 'reduce all creation to ashes' mean it's a reality-buster attack? No.
I don`t see how it wouldn`t when the attack comes from a universal power such as Gogeta and two equal a Universal Spirit Bomb which Gogeta used at minimum power to being able to kill Omega if it weren`t for his playfulness.
2. Big bang level explosion didn't even scratch the dispel bound. Literally all seraphs were fine.
I`m not doubting that the Dispel Bound will be a very, very hard obstacle to get through but Gogeta has already been able to break through the laws of physics at minimum power I don`t see how a multiversal power couldn`t win against a universal supposed barrier technique especially since it originates from magic that Gogeta`s energy nullifies especially negative energy and Darshe isn`t positive energy.
I don`t see how Gogeta wouldn`t be able to nullify and bypass it easily when weaker Z characters have been able to reduce many individuals of great regeneration to ash such as Buu, Cell and Omega Shenron even a universal demon such as Super Janemba did not do well against a SSJ1 Gogeta....
So Darshe isn`t anything new not even to the infinitely weaker Dragon Ball characters overall who casually deal with different types of regeneration even in the Movies....
Because Z characters never even get close to atomic level regeneration. They can neither nullify it or bye-pass it. The character with the best regeneration was cell, and he could only come back from... a cell.
Actually Kid Buu`s regeneration kind of better he regenerated from absolutely nothing when he got pulverized into something less than ash it took a spirit bomb to rid him and the spirit bomb attacks ki directly as it purifies it as well, Omega`s regeneration is better than Cell`s even Cooler`s to a degree so Cell isn`t the limit or highest standard at all and the characters of Z are bugs compared to SSJ4 Gogeta.
They have absolutely no way to overwhelm space/time reconstruction.
Goku can`t, Vegeta can`t and the rest of the Z Fighters can`t I`m willing to admit that but I`m here to tell you that SSJ4 Gogeta can in fact bypass those two fabrics of reality with his ki energy Super Janemba controlled dimension/space and etc yet his ki was made to look like nothing next to SSJ1 GOGETA.
Actually Kid Buu has come back from nothing before during his final fight with Goku and Vegeta as shown during that battle also it doesn`t actually matter since infinitely weaker Dragon Ball characters with less ki have managed to beat them a SSJ4 Gogeta was able to destroy Omega who had to use the reality warping and the magic of the Dragon Balls to help regenerate yet it didn`t help him against Gogeta who was only playing around the whole time. I don`t see Darshe being able to survive a Stardust Breaker from SSJ4 Gogeta a SSJ1 Gogeta was able to stomp the universal/dimensional/space manipulator Super Janemba and stop him from regenerating targeting his soul and existence which the Stardust Breaker did. Keep in mind that this wasn`t even a SSJ4 Gogeta in the slightest it was a SSJ 1 Gogeta and Super Janemba can easily be compared to Darshe being able to blow up a universe or just control it with raw power which is far more impressive than to what Darshe could do on his own power this is ultimately nothing new to the Saiyans let me reiterate this fact.
Proof that kid buu came back from nothing? He was just blasted to fragments invisible to eye. Doesn't mean he can regenerate back at even cellular level like cell.
Because Cell actually had something to replenish himself from what furthers the fact about Kid Buu is that unlike the rest of the Z Villains it literally took a Spirit Bomb fully charged to destroy him unlike Frieza who tanked a planetary one earlier on in the series as Kai already confirmed that a misstep of a regular Spirit Bomb could destroy the planet and the one Goku charged borrowed energy from more powerful characters so it took all that ki to nullify Buu and bypass his durability it only took a SSJ2`s Kamehameha Wave to end Cell.
I'm not sure where it says shenron can regenerate back at cellular level.
Omega Shenron regenerated from Gogeta`s attack with the Dragon Balls and his magic/reality-warping he was gone completely and you can see the fabric of his magic reconfiguring him back to his original state it was shown within GT when he fought Gogeta.
Gogeta's star dust breaker never even came close to overcoming molecular regeneration. Useless.
Actually it did something quite better it erased Super Janemba from existence and he`s the same one who warped the multiverse with his ki energy yet SSJ1 Gogeta destroyed him with a Stardust Breaker specifically. It will purify and erase Darshe from the inside-out from all perspectives which includes the physical, mental and spiritual.
Being a space manipulator means nothing in actual combat. Haruhi is several billion times better a warper than all of Z warpers, including shenron, put together, yet she could die from a bullet.
Well the difference between her and Omega is that Omega wouldn`t die from a bullet lol, that tells you the tier she was on many mortal-like characters can warp universes but they get taken out pretty quickly. I doubt she`s a better warper than Super Janemba, regular Janemba warped Hell, all dimensions and his ki was felt across all of the multiverse the same instant he was born in his base form yet he got owned by SSJ1 Gogeta.
Kid Goku has been able to destroy an entire reality with his lowest potential, SSJ1 Gogeta outperformed Super Janemba`s ki energy and that ranges in universal/dimensional/space/time/multiversal level, SSJ4 Gogeta reverted Omega`s reality warping and magic back to zero with just raw force and he wasn`t even at 100% Super Saiyan Vegito repelled Super Buuhan`s universal destroying ki energy with his own and Buuhan`s energy was so great in that instance that it managed to travel across all dimensions having them torn apart like paper yet Vegito managed to stop him head on this goes to show the true power of a fusion and there are even themes behind them. What makes Darshe`s Dispel Bound so special other than that its epic, lol.
Shattering a reality that needed only galaxy lighting power: Useless.
Your missing the point. Kid Goku didn`t use his upper limit he`s charged his energy levels on later occassions to greater degrees and he`s shown better efforts or investments also in that instance he wasn`t even a Super Saiyan so its mighty impressive regardless the way you might put it.
Janemba's Ki: Maybe multigalaxy+: Useless.
Easily multiversal, BASE Janemba warped the multiverse confirmed by the Kais + Goku (who felt his ki as well), Pikkon and even King Yenma so its 100% fact that he`s multiversal at base he`s never powered up until Gogeta was born and Super Janemba was scared of him.
Dragon's magic: Planetary level: Useless.
Not true not Porunga`s he`s omnipotent he doesn`t have a master and has no limits he also grants three wishes by his will to the summoner.
Super buuhan's shield: Maybe multigalaxy: Useless.
Actually its above that considering everyone pretty much confirmed he was tearing apart reality itself in every aspect which includes galaxies he was warping things on a multiple dimensional level regular Super Buu and even Buu in general was already breaking through time as well as dimensions with his screams so it isn`t a surprise that Buuhan can go to that level.
(vegetto didn't stop the attack itself. He stopped buu from screaming by breaking through the shield.)
He did actually, he broke through the barrier with his ki and his ki overpowered Buuhan that`s how Dragon Ball works even in the lore which the author confirmed in terms of how ki combats ki in different ways.
Darshe's dispel bound consists of countless regenerating shields unscathed by big bang level explosion. Gogeta doesn't even come close to scathing it.
Gogeta its multiversal level so I don`t see how Dispel Bound is going to be a obstacle that would prevent him from destroying Darshe.
--------------
I will stop this weirdness here, and put it in a spoiler block. Sorry to do that, but I have to Because I'm not seeing any credible point in your argument. Here's why:
I don`t see where the weirdness is in my argument I find it strange that the logic being used for Darshe is that he shouldn`t be affected by Gogeta because he`s from a universe and the way their powers work in regards to their feats are different also I don`t understand how characters like Super Buuhan as well as Janemba are only multi-galaxy level or multiversal by the maybe factor when its blatantly shown to be a fact that their above those levels by casual demonstrations of power.
1. First, you're confusing warping power with actual fighting power. Many characters who can warp entire realities have defense and offense of less than a city block. What matters in a fight is your battle capabilities, not your warping capabilities. That is, unless you can warp people out of existance.
The problem with your logic in trying to compare it Super Janemba is that he doesn`t fit that context he actually has a offense as much as a defense but he`s a trained fighter he actually held his own against Goku and Vegeta as well as stomped them after toying with them he demonstrated his capabilities that was the point of Super Janemba lol, he ascended into his battle form so he can take on Goku also Omega is a legitimate fighter as well and the battles are limited in city block environments because of the principles of Dragon Ball in terms of ki control and etc which has been showcased within the lore more than once.
I'm not saying janemba/buuhan/shenron are block level. They're obviously galaxy+ busters. But their busting power doesn't even matter when it comes to a universe. Their warping power, useless in a fight, is a lot bigger:
Not true its already proven that all three are way passed galaxy level if that was the case especially for Buuhan and Janemba then they wouldn`t be tampering with hundreds of dimensions simultaneously now this is lowballing. Also Janemba and Buuhan are combatants, Super Janemba converted his ki to battleground levels as well warping someone out of existence doesn`t matter since Super Janemba was toying around with Goku he didn`t even power up when fighting him when he sensed SSJ1 Gogeta`s ki he then POWERED UP in that actual instance and Gogeta`s ki could be felt from across every dimensions including the UNDEAD universe that`s why Trunks and Goten fused to become Gotenks right after. Also when Super Janemba fought Goku he many times demonstrates his ability to utilize his warping abilities directly in battle to correlate with the battle itself he was creating dimensional slicing swords out of nothing, he created glass like assault weapons to try and kill Goku out of nothing and he created portals also he was breaking the fabric of reality as well.
- Janemba warped the check-in station, which in turn caused the universe to be affected, as king yamma said. Anyone blowing up the check in station can do the same.
Not true if you re-watch the scene King Yemma made specific mention of Janemba being born from the Check in Station the kid who the check in station exploded next to was engulfed with the oil then he became Janemba that`s why King Yemma was stating that the creature was affecting all of the dimensions and that`s the same reason why GOKU even said that he could feel his ki it was like it was filtering the entirety of the multiverse the entire reality Goku said it wasn`t like any ki that he had felt before.
- Kid buu caused the dimensions to collapse on one another, threatening universal distortion. Like.. altering few bricks in a wall oddly can make it collapse.
I understand your point but that`s not really true. It was blatantly shown that Buuhan was affecting all of reality simultaneously if that were the case the Outer World wouldn`t be affected as it was or the Hyperbolic Chamber but both were affected at the same time the reason why they were collapsing on one another is because Buuhan was ripping apart the Kais` realms altogether it doesn`t take away from the feat itself.
- Shenron used negative energy, which affected the planet and cosmos around it. It'll take him trillions of years to 'lay waste to the universe' at that pace. Even with warping, he doesn't classify as universe buster.
Not true we`ve been down this road before and I already explained the context its true that negative energy is involved but it doesn`t make him less of a universal destroyer.
2. Second, you're confusing dimensions with universes.
Dimensions in Dragon Ball lore are the universes and I`m not since when events occur revolving Buuhan or Janemba its usually brought to attention that existence 100% is being affected.
Ichigo's power up shatters dimensions. Doesn't mean he's universal+. Kid goku isn't even galactic level. Still his kamehameha destroys a dimension. Base darsh can create alternate dimension as a side effect of a spell (It basically sends the target and the spell in other dimension to stop it from destroying the real world)
The difference is that Ichigo destroys smaller dimensions its been shown in that of the universe of Bleach especially if you are to compare it to Dragon Ball I`m a big follower of Bleach and I know how it works so I would know. KId Goku destroyed a really big dimension that was even labelled as a reality his ki at lower levels when powering up can light up an entire galaxy, I don`t see how this matters since SSJ4 Gogeta is infinitely more powerful than Kid Goku, Ichigo and even if you want to throw Sailor Moon into the mix for the idea of dimensional discussion but we have to remember that what Darshe has down doesn`t even compare to Super Janemba in the slightest who got stomped by the same Saiyan duo.
Creating/Breaking dimensions doesn't mean anything, unless it's energy value is absolutely specified.
The problem is that it is actually specified Janemba-Super Janemba converted to combat at lower levels and still was made to look like an amateur when Gogeta arrived also its about ki.
3. You're confusing attack names with actual attack power.
Actually I haven`t I don`t know where you got this idea from but I haven`t actually labelled the attacks literally unless identifying them and giving them a background.
Planetary rasengan! Doesn't mean planet bust.
That`s in Naruto, however I never labelled the Big Bang as an actual Big Bang my point is that Gogeta`s ki energy is easily multiversal level.
Univeral spirit bomb! Doesn't mean universal.
But we should know that its quite blunt when it comes to something like the Spirit Bomb which is why a planetary one confirmed by King Kai could destroy the earth if not harnessed or utilized properly the Universal Spirit Bomb borrowed energy from not only celestial objects but from the Z fighters and GOKU who is easily already close to universal level with his ki energy also it destroyed Omega in the process who is a universal power there needs to be a universal purifier to nullify a negative universal energy.
Big bang kamehameha! Doesn't mean it has power equal to the big bang.
I never said it did and I never enforced any kind of emphasis on the idea my point simply was that Gogeta is a multiversal power he easily demonstrated universal superiority at SSJ1 after stomping Super Janemba with his original ki energy it wouldn`t be possible if Gogeta wasn`t that powerful and Akira already put hardcore emphasis on how powerful the fusions make a Saiyan or a character.
"Reduce all creation to ashes!" Doesn't mean all-creation levelling attack.
And why not exactly?
Funnily enough, if you go by that logic, Super saiyan vegeta in android arc has equal attack power to ss4 gogeta and vegitto. Considering DBZ, that's highly improbable ;) :p
I don`t see how when we know they weren`t at those levels during those times GT in comparison to Z has reasons as to why these types of things would be considered true facts it doesn`t simply work as that type of logic.
And if you say it is, the gogeta has already lost..
Not true.
4. Third, you're confusing Z characters regen with DS's regen, which is infinitely better for many reasons:
No, I`m not I actually understand the comparative measurement between both differences and I don`t see what`s so special or different.
One: best dbz has to deliver is coming back from being reduced to a cell. Impressive by Z standards, but not worth mentioning to the likes of DS and uriel. They have space/time reconstitution, and come back from atomic disintegration.
Omega, Janemba and Buu already have shown to surpass Cell`s regeneration it wouldn`t make sense even if they couldn`t especially since their more powerful characters also I don`t see how this somehow magically saves Darshe from being erased from existence.
Second: They can't regenerate indefinitely. They take time to regenerate, and overloading their physical body means they can't come back. Cell: killed, didn't continue to regen. Buu: killed, not continue to regen. Because they cannot exist without their physical body.
Buu came back without a body, Cell`s is obviously true because he even confirmed that he could only come back from a Cell. Buu on the other hand had to be purified and erased completely in which he became reincarnated as Uub at a later point.
DS? They'll have to keep overcoming him regen infinitely, and we see DBZ characters get tired after a single fight.
Those were DBZ characters, not Z characters there`s a strong and defining difference when comparing the two.
5. Gogeta, no matter what he does, has no way to get past eternal atoms. You suggested two ways:
Eternal Atoms are nothing to a Stardust Breaker even if a Spirit Bomb were to proven unable which I highly doubt to be the case.
Multiversal Spirit bomb: Useless. Wiping out his physical body means nothing, even if he doesn't absorb it, or doesn't tank it with dispel bound.
This another misconception that I hope to debunk and bring to light in other debates the Spirit Bomb or Genkai Dama doesn`t just destroy the body it cleanses the soul completely as well as erases the soul along with the body this was made note of in Z by Goku and others its like the Instant Transmission misconceived situation.
Star dust breaker: Useless. Attacking his soul means nothing. Same as above.
It attacks the victim`s entire existence actually the souls is just one aspect Janemba was another being and was reduced to the ogre kid after the effects of the Stardust Breaker.
They have no technique that can simultaneously attack every plane. Hell, no way to harm him on mental/astral plane at all.
The Stardust Breaker and Universal Genkai Dama will do it, and since its all about ki manipulation then I have no doubt their higher levels of ki would be able to do so since a regular Stardust Breaker at SSJ1 levels can destroy/purify/erase someone as powerful as Super Janemba who is a lot more powerful than Darshe also Darshe is a negative aspect so the technique will take effect.
6. Gogeta still has no way to get past Dispel bound.
Yes he does if his raw power can get passed reality warping, magic and etc then I don`t see how Dispel Bound will be an impossibility.
Gogeta's best attack is a massively multi-galaxy busting kamehameha/spirit bomb gathered from multiverse.
Not true then that means Gogeta is galaxy level which is false since at SSJ1 levels he was already stomping around Super Janemba and the spirit bomb he harnessed comes from his inner ki levels, I doubt he`s galaxy level weaker characters have already reached those levels.
Dispel bound protected DS against a big bang. He has no way to even scratch it.
SSJ4 Gogeta is multiversal, as powerful as Super Janemba was he couldn`t even protect himself from SSJ1 Gogeta and his ability is greater than Darshe`s.
Even if he does scratch it, it will regenerate. DB has countless shields. Gogeta doesn't have unlimited energy.
Gogeta will blow straight through them his energy has already bypassed regeneration, magic and reality warping at the highest levels.
7. Gogeta has no way to get past the infinite-energy barrier on his skin.
That`s a statement not yet 100% proven.
Same reasons as above.
That I have debunked.
8. Addressing the point about side effect:
Are you trying to support me in DS is a big bang level guy or what?
Not at all, I think you misinterpreted or misread my argument its quite clear, my point was to showcase examples of how this side-effect thing works.
Guys on odin's level are proven galaxy busters. Mephisto is a galaxy buster in full form, and the fight is taking place in his own realm. Galactus destroys galaxies..
Not true, my point was Odin did not even affect the multiverse like everyone claims he battled with someone to create that affect he didn`t willfully use his own power and Mephisto is not galaxy level he got beaten by many of the weaker Ghost Riders within his REALM this is a huge misconception. Also even killemall confirmed that Galactus was not even at full power when he infiltrated Mephisto`s realm, his CLASH WITH MEPHISTO caused the destruction of galaxies, the reason why I put so much emphasis on that fact is due to the fact that Mephisto does not even have individual feats of blowing up a galaxy he only bluffs and when he does he gets stomped on by the weaker Marvel heroes.
Yet.. Side effect of two beings on galactic+ level? Shattering stars.
Darkseid is a galactic level under PIS or circumstance he`s not always on that level even Freefa51 whose one of the best experts on Darkseid confirms this.
Darkseid is multiplanet level by himself.
Not true only under special circumstances when he has amp he gets challenged and beaten by far less...
Sensui can destroy mountains with a punch. Yet, hundreds of hits exchanged in the fight? Destruction is nowhere close.
Not really the shockwaves destroyed multiple mountains when he fought Yusuke also when he do break the mountains their not completely destroyed they destroy mountains to a specific degree.
Want an example in DBZ?
Gohan and Cell exchanged solar system level kamehameha. Didn't even destroy the district.
The problem with this is the fact that its proven with Ki Control by Akira himself that the reason why they don`t achieve certain level collateral damage is because they willfully control or manipulate their ki attacks against one another and also KI SIZE is mentioned. I can give you an example, Vegeta channeled his planetary attack to hit Cell and everybody with Ki Sense knew he could destroy the planet the same situation happened with Goku and Vegeta when they fought its actually explained here by a Dragon Ball expert by the name of Mortein
The destruction in a fight is dramatically reduced.
Not true, this is another misconception the battle damage remains the same as channeled and as produced also Gohan`s attack repelled Cell`s it backfired back to Cell.
Yet, DS and uriel exchanged an infinitely stronger attack, whose side effect was big bang level explosion.
I already discussed why this feat is no different than the examples I have already given and I don`t see how that`s more impressive than what Janemba has done.
Unless you want to go by just what is shown, In which case gogeta's beaten before he starts, I don't see why we should apply double standard to DS for the sake of this debate.
There`s no double standard, Gogeta is being completely underestimated his feats and showings already are above Darshe`s even if I don`t factor in power-scale, I don`t see how Darshe is any different than Janemba, Omega and etc....
@PrinceAragorn1, @valfranx is officially joining the debate and I am very excited!! Out of respect and admiration, I`m going to be referencing his contributions all credit goes to @valfranx:
Valfranx :)
dead zone is indeed an black hole:
DragonBall Daizenshuu 6 – Movies & TV Specials
text:
What is the Dead Zone?!
It is a void of darkness created by Garlic Jr. through his supernatural powers. A type of black hole, it sucks up everything in this world. Not even a single ray of light pierces through there, and you will be locked in darkness until you die.
this here will leave fans of crazy superman, was not enough kid goku be lightspeed, now they show feats of resistance to blackholes before of raditz saga. gohan went further, with a power of 1,000 bp, below of raditz, negates the seriousness of a blackhole just increasing your ki, pushing garlick for the black hole. is garlick survived. practically a thanos dbz. Practically the dbz thanos. they do not even need to accelerate to resist gravity of blackholes, they can simply cancel the gravity waves with ki, who created an opposite force to gravity.
is a feat canon?
some people are very hypocritical about that stuff, I mean Pre-Crisis Superman is ret coned and is a non-canon character completely, same with Prime one million and so on, even Post crisis is not the same as the current one, New 52 is the current canon one. Superman fans tend to mix all the versions feats together, then turn around and try to say you cant use anime or movies for DBZ, its pretty sad really to see them stoop so low. feats are feats, simple thus.
kamisama can create moons!!! (episode 133)
I can finally to declare this outlier as dead.
many people and haters who say they watch dbz use like excuse that there is no explanation of why the moon appeared after being destroyed, more after of watch this episode, I caught goku saying what kamisama brought the moon of back, outlier unmasked.
I'm taking advantage has a new information that confirms that goku could replicate the roshi feat:
daizenshuu:
Super Kamehameha
Goku
A Kamehameha that was superbly powered up due to Goku's training. It repelled Piccolo's attack and pulverized it.
Vol. 16 / Chp. 185
An extra-strength version of the Kamehameha, which shatters even the moon.
Special Characteristics: A technique where he must fully use his muscles in order to fire it, due to the powerful destructive force it puts out. It has enough power to destroy the moon.
ki goku ssj3 was felt even outside the universe, the Kaioshin planet is outside the universe, to ki of goku be sense out of the universe, his ki would have to cross the universe.
note that the aura of gogeta appear on earth and then disappears. the thing by rotating is all dragon ball universe, note that the aura of gogeta illuminates all this.
goku ssj3 and goku in dbgt, makes hell and heaven tremble, awesome, because as you can see on the map, this is an alternate dimension that has the same size of the universe.
I'm not lying.
Loading Video...
This also confirms that base of goku in dbgt = ssj3 goku in dbz.
Special Characteristics: A technique where they fire a great kiai yell, distorting the dimension and opening a hole in it. Only people with extremely high battle ratings can use this. They used it to escape from the sealed Room of Spirit and Time.
*Outside Space
Category: ability
People: Majin Buu (evil)
Special Characteristics: Overwhelmed by Vegetto, Buu generated this after going into a frenzy. Distortions appeared in the space surrounding Buu. It seems that this power was also what enabled Buu to escape from the Room of Spirit and Time. This space would cover the living world and wipe out the universe.
janemba is stronger than Hildegarn, second dbz creators and toei:
text:
The phantom majin Hildegarn is a formidable opponent capable of trading blows evenly with even Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but since Janenba from the previous work "The Rebirth of Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta" could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku, strength-wise this makes him No.2 out of the movie series enemies.
Ryo Mito producer of dbz repeats again the fact that jenemba is, the strongest character of the films, which makes him a equivalent buuhan, in movies.
text:
Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai Designer Diary
Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai producer Ryo Mito gives us an inside look at the PSP debut for the popular anime-based fighting series.
Hello everyone! My name is Ryo, and I'm the producer of the PSP's Shin Budokai. Some of you may know me as the producer of DBZ: Budokai Tenkaichi (PS2).
In Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai, the player can fight battles using one of 18 characters from the Dragon Ball Z story. The special moves and animations for each of these characters are quite different from one another, and each character has been given unique moves and attacks that are faithful to the manga and TV animation series. For example, Piccolo can stretch out his arms (a move known as the Mystic Attack) to grab his opponents and bring them closer to him for an attack. Another character, Krillin, can use his solar flare move to blind his opponents and stop them from moving, just like you see in the animated television series.
Plus, each of the 18 characters found in the game can transform into other forms. For example, in battle, Goku can transform into any of the following forms: Kaio-ken, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, and Super Saiyan 3. Each form has different attacks.
Pikkon and Janemba are two new characters that weren't in the previous game. Pikkon is my favorite character from the movie series and was powerful enough to defeat Frieza and Cell when they went on a rampage in HIFL. He was also involved in a very intense fight with Goku during the finals of the Other World Tournament. I know that he's quite popular among US Dragon Ball Z fans, and there were many requests for him to be in a game, so he's making his first appearance in this title. In the game, he's a powerful character who uses very fast attacks and has a number of special moves such as the Thunder Flash and the Hyper Tornado.
Janemba is an evil creature that appeared in HIFL. He is the strongest enemy to appear in the Dragon Ball Z anime movies. He possesses overwhelming power and speed and has a variety of special moves at his disposal. He can use his club to create a very sharp sword, which he uses to attack his opponents in the game. He's as powerful in the game as he was in the movie, so he'll be one of the strongest characters in the game.
When it comes to game modes, the main mode in Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai is called Dragon Road. Dragon Road mode is a multiscenario story mode based on the events in the upcoming DBZ movie, Fusion Reborn. After Buu is defeated and peace returns to the world, evil builds up in HIFL, creating a creature called Janemba. Janemba plays havoc with the order of the world for his own pleasure, resurrecting the dead, twisting time and space, and making copies of strong warriors to fight for him. Goku and his friends call upon many different allies, and even some old enemies, to try to defeat Janemba. The sweeping story, which is centered on Janemba and Pikkon (my favorite!), takes place in both the normal world and the Other World. The player follows the events of the story, taking control of many different characters along the way. Of course, these include Goku and his friends, but you will also sometimes use enemy characters in battle, and, depending on the choices you make, the story will take different twists and turns.
feats of janemba are more impressive than I imagined, ryu seeing this, do you think that Dark Schneider would have a chance against janemba? the magical feats were confirmed as feats in universal scale and he can nullify powers of other beings.
he used magic high-end:
daizenshuu 6/7
Janenba
A monster from the afterlife
History
A monster born from the Psychedelic Oni who worked at Enma's palace being bathed in evil ki. He seals Enma Daio and his entire palace inside a magical barrier, causing both the Earth and afterlife to be thrown into chaos.
Characteristics
At first he has a stout body and blank expression, but in the middle of his battle with Goku he transformed into an evil form.
Techniques
He has the ability to create magical barriers, and utilizes overwhelming speed and power. He uses numerous techniques, including Psychokinesis, mini-Janenbas, a space-transference attack, and disassembly teleportation.
Battles
He fought Goku and Paikuhan when they came to rescue Enma Daio, and battled the resurrected Vegeta as well. He was defeated by Gogeta, the Fusion warrior of Goku and Vegeta. (Daizenshuu 6, p.142)
Janenba used this in the movie "The Rebirth of Fusion!!~". His entire body scatters to pieces like bricks of a jigsaw puzzle and disappears, and he then materializes as these pieces once again connect together. (Daizenshuu 6, p.142)
Energy Cannon
[enerugii hou]
Category
Ability
User(s)
Janenba
Characteristics
He fires consecutive energy bullets from the eight holes on his body. In addition, he creates a barrage by firing a large amount of energy bullets in all directions while spinning at high speeds. (Daizenshuu 6, p.142)
Mini Goku
[mini gokuu]
Category
Ability
User(s)
Janenba
Characteristics
In order to counter Goku's Kamehameha, pre-transformation Janenba created a fake Goku on the palm of his hand, and had it fire a Kamehameha just like Goku. It appeared in the movie "Rebirth of Fusion!!~". After launching the Kamehameha, the Mini Goku disappears.
Mini Janenba
[mini janenba]
Category
Ability
User(s)
Janenba
Characteristics
A technique which pre-transformation Janenba used. He creates countless small doppelgangers of himself from the human-shaped objects in Hell, and has them attack Goku. It appeared in the movie "Rebirth of Fusion!!~". (Daizenshuu 6, p.142)
Magical Barrier
[kekkai]
Category
Ability
User(s)
Janenba
Characteristics
Janenba used this to wrap up Enma's palace. It has the ability to make Enma Daio and the others unable to utilize their power to govern the afterlife. What's more, it absorbs and disperses the power of Goku and Paikuhan's energy bullets. However, for some reason Paikuhan's insult attacks caused it to break. This magical barrier also vanished when Gogeta defeated Janenba. (Daizenshuu 6, p.142)
Space Transference Punch & Kick
[kuukan ten'i panchi ando kikku]
Category
Special
User(s)
Janenba
Characteristics
Appeared in the movie "Rebirth of Fusion!!~". A technique where he rains down unpredictable attacks by unleashing punches and kicks into an outside dimension, which then come out of dimensional portals which open up in different places.
(Daizenshuu 6, p.142)
Springing Forth from Another Space
[ikuukan wo hassei]
Category
Special
User(s)
Janenba
Characteristics
A technique where his opponent's energy bullet is absorbed into the alternate space which he creates between his hands, deflecting it to somewhere else. The post-transformation Janenba used it in the movie "Rebirth of Fusion!!~". (Daizenshuu 6, p.142)
Telekinesis
[nendouriki]
Category
Ability
User(s)
Janenba
Characteristics
Janenba uses this in the movie "Rebirth of Fusion!!~", during his battle with Goku. Using telekinesis to move the multicolored round objects floating in Hell's sky, he attacks by dropping them one after the other onto Goku's head. It seems that he controls the telekinesis through his hand movements.
"Janenba appears, and wraps up Enma's castle, with Enma in it.
An innocent evil
The Spirits Laundering Device, which washes wicked souls. Psychedelic Oni, the one in charge of managing the device, is bathed in evil ki spit out from it and transforms!
Janenba (pre-transformation)
The owner of super power, with a gigantic body and innocent face. The only thing he says is "Janenba".
8 ~ 9
in the Enma Realm, Goku becomes a Super Saiyan 3 and pulverizes Janenba, who uses space-surpassing punches and split-body attacks."
10 ~ 11
It looked like Janenba was dead, but he transformed and was revived!!
Phantasmagoric! The ruler of evil ki!!
Janenba's appearance after getting hit with Goku's attacks and transforming. His personality has become more aggressive than before, and he uses various attacks. He holds strength exceeding Super Saiyan 3.
Janenba (post-transformation)
He's become slime and his body color has also changed to being repulsive. He lets off a stream of eccentric techniques like attacking by stretching his arms, or teleporting by disassembling his body.
12 ~ 13
Meanwhile on Earth, Goten and Trunks call forth Shenlong, but Shenlong's power cannot return the resurrected dead to normal. In order to take care of the resurrected zombies, Goten and Trunks become Super Saiyan.
14 ~ 15
Even Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 has a hard fight against Janenba, who attacks by moving through disassembling his body.
16 ~ 17
Janenba's sword attacks Goku, who has been sealed within a lake of blood.
18 ~ 19
At that time, Vegeta had been revived due to Enma Daio being sealed away. Vegeta fights Janenba on his own, but is overwhelmed by an arm-stretching attack.
Unrivaled!! The strongest fusion warrior!!
The super warrior formed through the fusion of Goku and Vegeta. He easily defeats Janenba, who not even Super Saiyan 3 was a match for. He is clearly the strongest hero in the universe.
Gogeta
Gogeta, wearing the clothes of the people of Planet Metamor. The drooping bangs are from Goku, while his facial expression takes Vegeta's special characteristics. They fail the fusion once and became the chubby "Veku".
26
He obliterated Janenba with super power. On Earth, Super Gotenks takes care of the dead with a "Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack 100 Ghost Finish".
Finally goku dodging of meteors in a spaceship traveling at mftl and it takes 6 days to namek, bulma's spaceship takes two months to namek. Finally goku dodging of meteors in a spaceship traveling at mftl and it takes 6 days to namek, bulma's ship takes two months to namek. Goku creates a Kamehameha in a star, the their Kamehameha is larger than the earth.
This is all ready beyond the sad and pathetic stage. I don't even know where to begin addressing some of the absurdity of these claims.
We should just call for votes (not that anyone is actually going to read all this crap).
When going into this debate, I knew to expect forms of misjudgment or just overall rejection just because of Dragon Ball`s overall credibility/history on this site and this was more of a broad discussion than anything, however regardless I didn`t expect to win or have the advantage due to the more realistic factors especially since I`m debating for the side of Dragon Ball.
@locust619, your comment did not post on this thread so I read it on your profile to see what your thoughts were and most of them were already addressed, like I mentioned above, I already expected to take a good consideration of heat from many due to a Dragon Ball character being involved in this debate (even though this is not supposed to be a typical, conventional or narrow CaV its more open as well as communicative), however I understand your points and concerns but I have to respectfully disagree.
@neongamewave: you're redirection won't work. This heat is not due to the DBZ universe or a grudge against it or a lack of knowledge. Its because of you, not DBZ. Don't blame DBZ. DBZ knows 5 punches and a kick are different from millions of infinite energy attacks. You don't, apparently.
Its your logic, what you're arguing and how ur arguing it. All of it goes beyond reasonable speculation, its baseless hyperbole.
"Frieza did this and goku dodged meteors so that's how Gogeta can break a shield of infinite energy!!!" No! How does that prove anything?!
Anyway I don't belong here. I'm just saying, don't blame dbz bias. Its not that, its that what you are arguing is IMPOSSIBLE and makes no sense. I'll be back during the voting, its just been eatting me n since everyine else crashed the party i figured i may as well, too. Do DBZ justice, dont let your desire for Gogeta being the strongest hokage to ever go full hollow blind you to legitimate math and basic common sense.
and returned the dimension 2 where defeated the androids and the cell.
moreover, the cell of dimension 1 stole the time machine of trunks, and has created cell game. ie the dimension 3 is a story created from the other dimensions.
janemba can destroy this dimensions alternatives and also distort, in dbz: shin budokai.
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as the universe 7 that also a collection of alternate dimensions , they all have the same size , the larger the number of dimensions, greater will be the universe 7 ( multiverse ) .
the Chronicle chapter of the DBO guidebook:
In the past, Trunks had used the time machine for the purpose of defeating the Artificial Humans and Cell. However, even if it was for the protection of Earth’s peace, the act of using the time machine was ultimately a violation of the laws of the universe. When used, a time paradox occurs and multiple divisions are produced, causing the formation of different histories. The Kaiōjiken, who watches over the flow of time from the cosmos, gave Trunks a stern warning for his actions. Afterwards, in order to redeem his wrong actions, Trunks took up the job of time patrol, whose role was to correct the distortion of history.
Someone expanding history at an alarming rate. If we do not put a stop to it, the universe will end!
What?
Miira had stolen the Time Passport,; a device that made leaping through time possible. Because Miira interfered with history everywhere he went, the resulting myriad of time paradoxes was putting a strain on the limited capacity of the entire universe. If these time paradoxes were to continue increasing, the universe(universe 7), unable to withstand the capacity overload, will erupt into a massive explosion!
“It seems clear that the one who is expanding history is invading this era the most.
I can show many parallels similar others to feat of buu. the fact is that the Daizenshuu confirmed ki buu was already out of the universe and Dende says that the dimensions that are outside of the universe will be destroyed and vegito says that the collision will also destroy the universe 7.
specter prevents alternate dimensions collide.
Gallery
odin does something like buu here:
Gallery
opens a hole in universe that connects to alternative dimensions, breaking the walls, he could make the universes if collide and destroy the multiverse.
tenchi muyo the the same thing.
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Read this Comic, Its 100% what gohan Buu was doing except doing with his own power:
've been reviewing manga and anime, I found interesting statements that support broly as a galaxy buster, since cell and freeza own were indicated as potential galaxy busters. cyborg Freeza's ki was felt before arriving in the northern galaxy. ki cell atrevessou north galaxy, about to be felt in another galaxy, and in the same episode of a god namek said it cell has enough power to clear the universe. own manga in, 16 say that cell could destroy the universe in form perfect. more the anime showed the context, in order to destroy galaxies.
episode 92-
But if I don’t wipe out Freeza here and now,
the universe itself could be torn apart!
episode 93-
Grass, trees, and animals of Namek, as well as all
living things in the universe, share your Genki...
Planets of the universe, lend me your Genki!
Cell:
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Manga:
game: dragonball z budokai:
|Battle!|
“Full-powered King Kai Fist x10!"
Goku: If I don’t stop Frieza... he’ll ravage the... entire universe. One shot
left, the Spirit Bomb. I have to borrow the spirit of the Planet Namek... and
all of its creatures. Please, give me your strength!
Movies: bojack destroy galaxies: (sub Japanese)
Kai-Oo: Long ago he wandered throughout the north, south, east and western galaxies destroying as he went.
Gokuh: You imprisoned him on a planet at the edge of the universe?
Kai-Oo: You were careless in you fight with Cell
Kai-Oo: When you destroyed my Kai-Oo planet and caused me to die
Kai-Oo: You released the seal on Bojack and let him out
janemba was confirmed as the strongest villain of the films, in past.
chouzenshuu finally confirmed que kaioshins has the power to create galaxies.
area = galaxy.
text:
The universe is a dark and wide space which expands limitlessly, and it contains all celestial bodies that exist in this world. In the universe, innumerable number of stars are gathered where nebula is formed, and this innumerable number of nebula are gathered where galaxy is formed. As unit of administration to control galaxy that exists in the universe as many as indefinitely, it is classified into 4 areas by east, west, south and north, which are called galaxy in north(area of north) and galaxy of south(area of south). Between any galaxies (areas), they can move freely if they have technology power. It is controled by God of the area who lives in that world, and whole universe is closed by wall where mysterious pattern is inscribed. This universe has been balanced in whole by repeating creation made by God of the area and destruction made by God of destruction. In the universe, strong current called tidal current of universe has occurred at some places, and it is very dangerous if space ship is swallowed by the current.
buu in the manga has enough ki to destroy the universe.
dragon ball: the legend of manga
text:
to prevent buu, a monster with the power to destroy the universe, back to life, Kaioshin and group of Goku enter in the hideout of babidi.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6 (goku ssj3 vs kidbuu)
Goku: Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go poof...
rosat=other universe:
Page 48
Kulilin: Why do you think he’s going to have them fight in the Room of Spirit and Time?
Dende: I think it’s because if it looks like Goten and Trunks are about to lose, Majin Buu can be sealed into that other universe
Dende: Because it’s in another dimension than this universe, he won’t be able to come back out
kidbuu was pushing a Genkidama with the energy of the entire universe.
daizenshuu 10:
Dragon Ball Z Super Battle Scenes: The Final Battle013
Separated into six acts, the final story section spans Dragon Ball Z episodes 269 to 291, covering Vegetto’s battle with Majin Buu; the fight to rescue the others inside Buu’s body; the battle in the Kaiōshin Realm with the original, pure-evil Buu; the formation of a last-ditch Genki-Dama with energy from the entire universe; Buu’s final destruction with the help of the Dragon Balls’ power; and the 28th Tenka’ichi Budōkai, where Goku sets his sights on Uub to train as his disciple.
needs no intelligent life, as shown in the anime/manga , it can take energy from insects and even stars.
daizenshuu 7:
Genki-Dama [Spirit Ball]
First Appearance: Chapter 212
Category: ki manipulation
People: Son Goku
Special Characteristics: The Genki-Dama is a technique that gathers the energy held by grass and trees, humans and animals, objects and the atmosphere, and then fires it. A Genki-Dama gathered from only Kaio Planet had the destructive power to smash a super-speed brick. From this, in the case of a Genki-Dama made on Earth, if you consider the Earth’s size plus the ability to make energy from the sun your ally, it would certainly have the force to destroy a planet. However, it has the weakness that it makes you defenseless until fired. (Daizenshuu 2, p.211/Daizenshuu 4, p.111)
Manga:
all the world beyond, which is great as a universe, are giving your ki to genkidama.
even so kidbuu was pushing Genkidama.
Conclusion: no matter if you are using manga, anime and movies, they are in very close energy scales, the fact is kaioshins are scaled as beings who have the power to create galaxies, that is a fact both the in manga and anime, power to create galaxies is not very different from the power to destroy galaxies, by official sources, buu is a legitimate universe buster in manga as also in the anime. Just going by the manga, buu would not take long to destroy the universe.
At last, Goku and his friends defeated Dr. Myuu’s ambitions. In order to resurrect Krillin and restore the ruined Earth, Goku and his friends gathered the dragon balls, but they had cracks in them. Nervous, Goku called shenron. But an evil dragon appeared instead, ready to do evil deeds. The evil dragon stole the seven dragon balls and spread them all over the world! The evil dragon seems to have been born because Goku and his friends have used the dragon balls too much. If they leave him alone, he would destroy not only the Earth but also the whole universe. What is the evil dragon’s power that can destroy the universe? And can Goku beat this mysterious power? Now a fierce battle over the destiny of the whole universe has begun."
My god. Did you just compare DBZ characters to the Spectre?
I don't even know why you keep going on and on trying to powerscale, and hyperbole the crap out of power. Its irrelevant. (and he's not stronger, get over it)
Gogeta does not have the tools to win, regardless of power level.
He has absolutely no way to attack the Eternal Atoms.
He also has no answer for his own atoms being destroyed, physically, spiritually and astral. None of his being would exist. He would die in 1 attack. So would any DBZ character.
@neongamewave: you're redirection won't work. This heat is not due to the DBZ universe or a grudge against it or a lack of knowledge. Its because of you, not DBZ. Don't blame DBZ. DBZ knows 5 punches and a kick are different from millions of infinite energy attacks. You don't, apparently.
Its your logic, what you're arguing and how ur arguing it. All of it goes beyond reasonable speculation, its baseless hyperbole.
"Frieza did this and goku dodged meteors so that's how Gogeta can break a shield of infinite energy!!!" No! How does that prove anything?!
Anyway I don't belong here. I'm just saying, don't blame dbz bias. Its not that, its that what you are arguing is IMPOSSIBLE and makes no sense. I'll be back during the voting, its just been eatting me n since everyine else crashed the party i figured i may as well, too. Do DBZ justice, dont let your desire for Gogeta being the strongest hokage to ever go full hollow blind you to legitimate math and basic common sense.
There is no redirection, what you fail to understand is the DBZ principle if I was arguing for a Marvel or DC character, I doubt it would be broaden to the territory of what is counted as fact and what is not, DBZ not GTwhich is far ahead in the power scale dynamism that`s what you fail to even comprehend. I`m going by the rules, logic and foundation of Dragon Ball without exaggeration or misdirection of power scale.
The problem, I have with these kinds of accusations is that many seem to throw around terms they don`t add value to they say hyperbole but where and how? Where did I actually create this form of hyperbole and how? Its blatant as day its not closed like night...
You know, I never said none of those things right? Now your exaggerating at this point its funny how many like to point fingers at DBZ or the ones who utilize and debate it fairly based on what`s given but the ones pointing the fingers are usually the ones hyping up things that wouldn`t actually differ its only more comforting and compatible to what you consider truth so you would consider what your doing as something more appropriate than what you accuse DB of doing. My point was we would have to stretch ourselves into the realm of no limit fallacies if we are to debate about the contexts of infinite energies and it certainly does not climax the principle as being the undefetable this is in other words means that Darshe wouldn`t be in any possible a force that can be beaten, the Stardust Breaker is meant to purify an existence which means soul, mind, body, spirit, dimensions and etc.... So I don`t see how Darshe having infinite energy barriers is going to prevent him from being erased when he`s been challenged before by opposition who don`t even use the power of the Stardust Breaker the same technique that not even a multiversal reality warper like Janemba could resist.
I`m not, your actually blaming me for blaming something else when I haven`t actually blamed anyone or anything in specifics neither did I just make a regular plain old claim, I confirmed a consistency that takes place within the mainframe of this debating site so how am I blaming DBZ bias when I`m just confirming that these things have happened and are bound to happen especially since rules dictate that DBZ itself as a whole will follow under certain tight restrictions especially since its failed to have equal balance in the debating zone which we are in now? So I have used actual commonsense, knowledge, facts and some knowing more than anything else...... I`ve been there, seen it, debated for it and even against it, believe it or not I have debated against DBZ here as well as elsewhere, I just don`t like it when simple things are disregarded just in turn to be regarded as hyperbole when in Marvel and DC half of the time there`s some kind of hyperbole being showcased especially since the writers or artists can`t even correctly implement proper sciences to explain certain events....... That`s more fishy than actually having the correct foundation for knowledge and then interpreting it closely or commonly to the source which ultimately the heart of the material given which is actually the lore, which people don`t look into, I look into the LORE for a reason..... But I do respect your opinion and stance, I understand where your coming from your not the first to make note of this either so I truly do understand :)
My god. Did you just compare DBZ characters to the Spectre?
I don't even know why you keep going on and on trying to powerscale, and hyperbole the crap out of power. Its irrelevant. (and he's not stronger, get over it)
Gogeta does not have the tools to win, regardless of power level.
He has absolutely no way to attack the Eternal Atoms.
He also has no answer for his own atoms being destroyed, physically, spiritually and astral. None of his being would exist. He would die in 1 attack. So would any DBZ character.
who said I'm comparing dbz with spectrer? I'm talking about the fact that collisions of universes can destroy universes alternate universes, if not avoided.
feel free to, call of hiberbole, whether you believe it or not does not matter, not i am me or you who defines what is hyperbole or not. more the bird studio / Shueisha / Toei animation. I have shown my backups as bird studio / Shueisha / Toei animation defined as dragon ball is powerful. I can not do anything if dragon ball is really powerful, that has feats that coincides with versus and and even various declarations of characters are supported by guides, akira, bird studio / Shueisha / Toei animation.
if it was hyperbole, not would go repeat all thias in own series, in guides, official source... very often and even confirm , if it was a hyperbole. if you insist on calling hyperbole , we will be assuming that you are going against the author / Bird Studio / Shueisha / Toei animation or even against bastard since has declarations DS be a galaxy buster , and you're throwing everything about DS in the trash.
begins from the moment you go against the creators you've lost the debate . this is my last for you.
Really, your gonna try and call these inconsistent. They consistently go from moon to planet to star to solar system to galaxy level. They have many ftl and mftl feats. Then look at DS, hes only ftl due to the one seraph calc by scaling, not even his feat. He has never planet busted or anything, his only feat that gives him high DC is the black abyss feat and with most attacks he uses he does little AOE damage. When it comes to inconsistent most characters only show there best feats once or twice, ive listed a string of feats that show consistent progress in DBZ, so trying to dismiss the many feats ive shown as inconsistent is really hypocritical when using a guy like DS and calling him mftl and galaxy buster based on two feats, one of which isn't even his own.
ps:
the own creator of dragon ball, made him the omnipotent its own manga.
tori-bot creating the universe dragon ball in his office.
In the Dragon Ball manga chapter 480, "The Fusion Succeeds...?!", Tori-Bot appears on Kami's Lookout when Krillin notices the panels for when Trunks and Goten attempt the Fusion Dance multiple times are repeated, so Tori-Bot apologizes to his editor and asks not to be paid for having the same image of Trunks and Goten fusing used twice in the same chapter.
@valfranx: uh....darsch is a universe buster, not galaxy level. There's nothing hypocritical about calling him what he is...iv seen the scans, far more than two, of him delivering and exchanging infinite blows of infinite power relative to the Big Bang (which is the Universe, btw)...so yea none of its unfounded. Universe>a million galaxies>a thousand galaxies>a hundred galaxies>ten galaxies>2 galaxies>a large galaxy>a galaxy. Its pretty easy to grasp.
Anyway we really need to get outta here, I'm real bad I can't shut up either. Let's cheeze it till the votes
My god. Did you just compare DBZ characters to the Spectre?
I don't even know why you keep going on and on trying to powerscale, and hyperbole the crap out of power. Its irrelevant. (and he's not stronger, get over it)
Gogeta does not have the tools to win, regardless of power level.
He has absolutely no way to attack the Eternal Atoms.
He also has no answer for his own atoms being destroyed, physically, spiritually and astral. None of his being would exist. He would die in 1 attack. So would any DBZ character.
who said I'm comparing dbz with spectrer? I'm talking about the fact that collisions of universes can destroy universes alternate universes, if not avoided.
feel free to, call of hiberbole, whether you believe it or not does not matter, not i am me or you who defines what is hyperbole or not. more the bird studio / Shueisha / Toei animation. I have shown my backups as bird studio / Shueisha / Toei animation defined as dragon ball is powerful. I can not do anything if dragon ball is really powerful, that has feats that coincides with versus and and even various declarations of characters are supported by guides, akira, bird studio / Shueisha / Toei animation.
if it was hyperbole, not would go repeat all thias in own series, in guides, official source... very often and even confirm , if it was a hyperbole. if you insist on calling hyperbole , we will be assuming that you are going against the author / Bird Studio / Shueisha / Toei animation or even against bastard since has declarations DS be a galaxy buster , and you're throwing everything about DS in the trash.
begins from the moment you go against the creators you've lost the debate . this is my last for you.
Really, your gonna try and call these inconsistent. They consistently go from moon to planet to star to solar system to galaxy level. They have many ftl and mftl feats. Then look at DS, hes only ftl due to the one seraph calc by scaling, not even his feat. He has never planet busted or anything, his only feat that gives him high DC is the black abyss feat and with most attacks he uses he does little AOE damage. When it comes to inconsistent most characters only show there best feats once or twice, ive listed a string of feats that show consistent progress in DBZ, so trying to dismiss the many feats ive shown as inconsistent is really hypocritical when using a guy like DS and calling him mftl and galaxy buster based on two feats, one of which isn't even his own.
ps:
the own creator of dragon ball, made him the omnipotent its own manga.
tori-bot creating the universe dragon ball in his office.
In the Dragon Ball manga chapter 480, "The Fusion Succeeds...?!", Tori-Bot appears on Kami's Lookout when Krillin notices the panels for when Trunks and Goten attempt the Fusion Dance multiple times are repeated, so Tori-Bot apologizes to his editor and asks not to be paid for having the same image of Trunks and Goten fusing used twice in the same chapter.
Your entire argument is pure garbage and means absolutely nothing.
You want to use the "He has never busted a planet" crap?
Neither has Goku or Vegeta or Gogeta, HERPDERP. (and I dare you to you bring up the anime filler scene of Vegeta blowing up, just to destroy any shred of credibly you might have)
Moreover, DS doesn't need to bust a planet. Why? Destroying the Wall of Hell (which he did own his own in the DKL) requires the energy of THE BIG BANG stated by LUCIFER who was 3rd in Heaven's hierarchy behind Metratron (the voice of god) and God himself. Even displaying this power for an instant, outclasses anything DBZ has ever done.
You're crying about speed? Millions of attacks, counters and movement per second. Better speed feat than anyone in DBZ has ever done. And he has one better, exchanging infinite attacks every INSTANT. DBZ will never replicate that.
DBZ cannot compare to his power. His speed. His durability. His healing. Nothing.
This is a straight up mismatch, in fact. Its pretty clear as day to anyone who isn't blinded by their fandom. Time to get over the fact that DBZ loses. They aren't the end all be all for power, sorry to break the news to you. Dark Schneider barely cracks the top 10 in manga/anime only and he outclasses them in every aspect.
Feel free to stop posting if you want then. Because nothing you've added to this has been to anyone's benefit. You've only proved why DBZ threads are banned in mass on this forum.
In any case. This thread has pretty much spiraled down pretty hard. I'm not really interested anymore so peace.
And "PS" Nothing you posted about Tori-bot proves him to be omnipotent in the slightest. Ruling DBZ doesn't mean anything. But enjoy your fan wanking.
@neongamewave: You're making an assumption when u say I'm not understanding the lore or difference in power scaling. I was a Dragonball fan first, before I even knew what comics were lol that all came later. Ik how power scaling works. Outside of going SSJ, power increases come in multiples of around 20 for goku and gradually slows down. Fusion multipliers are basically combining their max power and making the sum the fused character's base level before SSJ multipliers. None of these multiplications come close to infinite power. Janemb was not multi universal...why do you keep saying these things? It was mid-high tier RW and the only reason he effected multiple planes of existence is because he specifically targeted the check in station, a nexus between worlds. He can't just do that on his own lol there is no reason to even suggest his existence is infinite, he's just a massive amount of evil energy. Not infinite. What you are not understanding is DBZ power scaling dynamics don't matter, none of them reach the level of either releasing infinite energy in one attack or causing anywhere near enough damage to one-shot an entire universe (with their own power, no chain reactions) comprised of multiple galaxies. The best feats in the entire DB series are Broly busting a galaxy and kid goku lighting a galaxy. Even with those as casual feats for SS4G its still not on the level of being able to react to attacks with literally mathamatically endless magnitude. That's what infinite means. OS's power was nowhere near infinite in magnitude either, his strongest attack was the stored up negative energy which was quantifiable and not even close to universe busting. BBK failed to one shot a guy with a quantifiable limit, however high, yet he's supposed to be able to one shot endless shields that require an endlessly unquantifiable amount of energy to break....which is more power than OS had. And him being an Eternal Dragon doesn't make his power infinite jsuk, Shenron himself was killed by a moonbuster. OS is a variation of that n thus there's no reason to consider him limitless. Janemba could RW itself n its surroundings, open dimentional rifts to teleport, yet power-wise was not even able to blitz/one-shot kill base Goku and Vegeta, his hax are the most things impressive about him (the BA sword in particular, I'd take it over the z sword any day). With that said, there's literally nothing to put Gogeta on the infinite level.
No I`m not and power scaling is actually apart of a very common foundation the lore isn`t too common in actuality, your assuming that I`m assuming when I am not, I haven`t used any form of false claims or accusatory statements, I understand where your coming from for me I was exposed to both anime and comics at a fairly young age but I believe you do have an informative understanding to some degree my point is how deep rooted is the understanding. Actually from the author Akira himself the multiplications for the Super Saiyan transformation does not slow down the fusions do differ there is the fusion dance and then the Potara Earrings and it doesn`t matter if it comes close to infinite or not the point is we would be dealing with no limit fallacies. I watched Fusion Reborn more than once and its only true to a fraction of a degree he didn`t primarily target the check in station the check in station exploded and engulfed the ogre kid which transformed him into the Janemba demon entity the check in station didn`t immediately or in any shape or form just twist all dimensions it blew up and Janemba was born if you analyze carefully the realms were manipulated by him and by him only even confirmed by the Kais, King Yemma even furthered this by saying the creature is manipulating all the dimensions, Janemba even showcased reality warping during his fights with Goku and Vegeta. He created weapons out of nothing, created copies of Goku, created portals and Goku even explicit said he could feel Janemba`s ki it was felt across all of the universe so how is exactly below multiversal? Also you know Stardust Breaker targets a being`s existence right? Which essentially means it would go beyond the concept of physical even metaphysical whether were debating infinite or not doesn`t matter its like saying Gogeta can`t scratch or stomp the Juggernaut cause he`s unstoppable, Darshe has been hurt by less which is my point and Gogeta is easily a multiversal power. Broly destroyed a galaxy in his restricted form that`s what many don`t realize he didn`t destroy one in his Legendary form it was in his weakest form, Broly`s ki is technically infinite it forever increases without bounds but he`s not even the strongest Dragon Ball character by any means. Bills is a galaxy buster and King Kai who knows Bills full well even confirmed he could constitute as a universal threat, the Dragon Shenron feared and respected him none of them come close to Gogeta or Janemba. Also, I`m not throwing around any kind of multiple or power scale to justify my answers, I`m just using logic, foundation, commonsense, principle and knowledge also all the arguments you have made about Omega are false. Omega as predicted and shown in simulation by the Kais is a confirmed Universal Buster, also Kid Goku destroyed a dimension in his weakest form/power-output so it doesn`t derail or deduct anything from any power that is on a higher level it only furthers my point. The sole reason why Janemba NOT SUPER-JANEMBA did not end up killing Goku right away is because he was playing around with Goku even Super Janemba was toying around with him it was further highlighted when he was tossing around Vegeta and did you ever realize that Super Janemba did not even power -up? He never did against Goku or Vegeta, only GOGETA whose ki was shaking reality and lighting it, it was so great it could be tracked by both Goten and Trunks who then fused into Gotenks to battle the armies in the other dimensional earth so no matter what is being thrown around whether it be hyperbole, excuses about how the multiplications don`t add up to infinite energy not like that infinite energy hasn`t been breached before and the fact that its not even omnipotent or nigh omnipotent energyalready validates what I`m saying if the consistency isn`t there then there would be a problem and the fact that we are not reaching into no limit fallacy territories. Also I thought it was obvious that Janemba and Super Janemba were playing around during the fight since even Super Janemba`s more weaker attacks were able to have a SSJ3 Goku power down to a base Goku and also did you know that Super Janemba was able to warp and morph a small useless object into a dimensional cutting sword that was literally cutting through dimensions even the rifts and fabricated matter that you so call say comes from the Check in Station? I thought the creator would also be a destroyer..... The information is there, I`ve watched the movie, analyzed it as I enjoyed it so I would know, nothing is being misconstrued or overrated by any sort of perception so there is no need to worry, I think I`m not going to address this point/topic again.
Your best argument would literally be Gogeta shooting confetti. Though its honestly a gag, it could be argued he had so much power he could somehow condense it into matter....and then in to paper and ribbons...but even it only requires star level power to create metal out of superheated matter broken down to its most basic building blocks, which function as waves n are basically energy.
Lol, Gogeta`s clones were actual clones he only had them become confetti because he was scaring Omega and it worked which is why it cost him because he did not use his true power he was fooling around during the entire fight, I don`t see your point here especially since Gogeta made it clear of what he is capable of along with his clones and what do you mean by best argument? The argument is pretty crucial since Gogeta has shown great ki manipulation and can have many clones surround as well as overpower Darshe also its critical to know that Gogeta never went 100% ever yet he makes universal busters look like insects.
And if you were really referencing the source as closely as you said then you wouldnt have disputed the fact that cloning splits energy as well with "it doesnt apply to Gogeta because hes so strong"...wtf source gave you that? You havnt been regarding the source, youre saying Gogeta can do things the source hasnt even implied using the tactics iv previously described. Using big words doesnt make a case, either. Lets break down your first sentence to me in that last post:
You fail to understand my point then. The reason why, what I stated is true because its even in the lore itself and there are many sources such as this one to prove this as fact this source is an official interview with Akira who talks about ki control, ki size and how it works, Tien failing at the technique shouldn`t be applicable to a character like SSJ4 Gogeta his ki power is so much more greater thus his ki connection, control and size would be greater espcially since its two Saiyans being fused into one not one character trying to utilize the technique also Teen Goku was overpowering and catching the same Tien off guard who was using the technique.
There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”. Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.
First you tell me i fail to understand the DBZ principle (then you put a comma as if u intend to elaborate but u dont) only to go on how if you were talking about Marvel/DC it would broaden what's considered canon or not (I don't see where this came from, but I'm listening...the point?) then you finish with ",DBZ, not GT, which is far ahead in the power scale dynamism" (yea...GT is ahead of Z....and?)....none of that had anything to do with anything....you gave me 3 unfinished sentences at once then added "I'm going by the rules, logic, and foundation of Dragonball without exaggeration or misdirection of the power scale". What? Nothing you just said had anything to do with convincing me that's the case....in fact you have been doing the opposite this whole time (saying 5 punches and a kick = millions of blows, saying a guy who can't one-shot someone without infinite durability can attack with infinite power). The best part is that u opened with "there is no redirection"....i could submit this to dictionary.com as the definition of redirection! You literally basically said "you dont understand, Marvel/DC are different, GT is stonger than Z, I'm being fair". That had literally nothing to do with anything, simply stating how right you are is not debating. Your points are "Gogeta hit OS 6 times so he can throw millions in an instant", "Gogeta beat Janemba who had RW powers (but couldn't one-hit 2 saiyans) so his power is infinite", and "Gogeta should be able to".
I actually did, you haven`t your only using the same arguments about how I said this and how I didn`t do that, and its funny how you say you don`t fail to understand the actual lore yet the arguments your making prove otherwise your making excuses like thousands of others have made, things in the element of arguments such as how do we know they become so strong and etc, etc.... My point in regards to Marvel and DC was quite simple really, what I was entailing was a very general fact in regards to how feats are portrayed on this site in relation to Dragon Ball and it actually does considering that means GT wouldn`t only be more powerful but it also easily explains why the characters have become so much more powerful there was a lot of complaining going on in regards to Z and also I believe you even made a point about how certain Z characters failed to do certain things which is why I highlighted GT so much, your not comprehending here... The following arguments prove the fact that you haven`t actually read all of my points and try to at least understand them in their entirety, I already went over them also I don`t see how an infinite barrier randomly means Darshe cannot be hurt when he has been hurt consistently by enemies supposedly weaker than him and I already addressed the rest so there is no need for me to put further elaboration on that matter.
Do you see the problem?
There`s no problem the only problem I see is the miscommunication itself in regards to comprehending, but in all fairness, I respect your points/opinions :)
This debate is excellent, Lol at the guy crying over DBZ Gohan-Buu feat is too much for Spectre to handle, Let that keep you up at night Comicstan but anyways
While Gogeta is immensely more powerful than anyone of those guys who perform them feats, And IMO holds a massive power advantage over DS. DS has Hax, And Pretty darn good hax if you ask me. And that has been DBZ biggest Problem from the get go and that is hax
Lets Admit, DBZ may have hax resistance, They can resist mind rape, Soul Rape and such as what Vegeta did to Bibidi while Bibidi having much better control over a evil heart. But they have barely anything to go against it. DS has Hax to Protect his ass, And I really do not know if Gogeta has anything to get rid of it to get to him
Also i might add, If adding movies. Gogeta can do the same thing Cooler and Goku did and fight in Instant transmission speed.
So overall, While Gogeta would have a huge Raw Power advantage, DS has a hax Advantage to protect him.
But i can see the instant transmission working for Gogeta to get to him before he can do anything
Hyperboles, completely out of context scans, absurd logic, crossversing to quantify feats, confusing all sorts of durabilities, confusing reality warping with actual damage output... Wow Is this how every DBZ CaV looks like ? I've lost my ability to even...
Hyperboles, completely out of context scans, absurd logic, crossversing to quantify feats, confusing all sorts of durabilities, confusing reality warping with actual damage output... Wow Is this how every DBZ CaV looks like ? I've lost my ability to even...
Ah, I didn't see this. He wanted a CAV where 'reasonable speculation' was allowed. That spiralled into "I think so, so it's reasonable". lol.
Dark Schneider vs Ssj 4 gogeta? Is this a joke? No one can mess with z and gt fighters they are a class for themselve.
dark schneider is a baby besides gogeta
1. This is a CaV. It's only between two people. You bumped it to add absolutely nothing.
2. Yes, it is a joke. Dark schneider slaughters every single character dragonball franchise can muster - even the poster arguing for dragonball admitted that, he only wanted the debate if he was allowed to speculate.
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