So.. After clashing on the wrong thread about the topic, and having an amazingly civil and exciting debate, I thought it'd be a better idea to keep a separate thread for this topic for this phenomenal clash of anime titans.
Note: This is a thread to see who is inherently a better warrior. So I'm allowing full, but reasonable speculation from either sides, please refrain from commenting on actual power capabilities. And if you're using the thread as a reference, please do not take the speculation as being completely true.
Scenario:
Dark schneider stumbles on the Z-verse, and decides to turn it into his own for fun. Goku and vegeta disagree with this, and attack him. Knowing the threat is very serious, they decide to fuse. Gogeta forms, and the two begin combat.
On one side, we have Goku and vegeta, the saiyan heroes of earth, standing as one:
Represented by Neongamewave
Brother-at-arms: Not chosen yet.
On the other, we have Dark Schneider, the God-like wizard of Other earth:
Represented by: Prince Aragorn 1.
Brother-at-arms: fallschirmajager.
Now add Some rules:
1. Please refrain from anything other than wishing luck, And do not vote till the debate is over.
2. Voting format:
A. Vote for debator: ___________ : (Vote on who debated better)
B. Vote on the battle: ____________ : (Vote one who should win the battle, from your knowledge, and from what you saw in the thread)
3. This is less of a CAV, and more of a discussion. If you'd like to join in with us as brother at scans, PM us, and join in officially. please, do NOT comment, or add any material of your own in the thread without doing so.
Basically, let me start by making my viewpoint clear. Darshe has about everything gogeta has, and he has more. So it should be quite clear that he can take it. Here's a Comparison of the two by different stats:
1. Raw Power:
Something that generally gives Dbz characters an advantage, but works against them here.
SSJ4 Gogeta: Massively multigalaxy, arguably universal. Both via statements/scaling.
Dark Schneider: Universal+ As a side effect in his fight, which Destroyed a reality on-panel, as well as broke a supermassive black hole of fifty million suns mass.
Edge: Dark Schneider.
2. Speed:
SSJ4 Gogeta: Mftl, and has teleportation.
Dark Schneider: Casually blitzed Mftl people before turning Majin form, and later using Dragon Knight power up. Has Exchanged infinite attacks and counters every instant against fallen uriel, As well as has teleportation himself.
3. Durability, defenses, Endurance:
SSJ4 Gogeta: Possibly universal+ durability. No specific defense shown.
Dark Schneider: Has taken punches equal to nuclear bombs in base, resisted being erased out of reality etc. More importantly, has a Shield, or dispel bound. It bans every conceivable and inconceivable form of attack, and it's strong enough that he was unscathed after taking on universal+ destruction, and the shields were present. The shields are auto, can regenerate, and can be repaired.
4. Battle Advantages:
A) Precognition: Darsh can read minds from a distance, as well as access inter company resources like sharingan. That gives him a precognition advantage.
B) Regeneration: Darsh has immensely hax regeneration, he has regenerated back from being a head, and the regeneration works even when your atoms are being destroyed.
C) Eternal Atoms: Darsh can continue to exist, and will regenerate, as long as he's not destroyed from every plane of existence. His mind, body, and soul should be destroyed. Goku does not have the tools required to destroy his mind, nor his soul.
D) Bloodstone: Bloodstone is a cursed space, cast on himself. Whoever attacks him will receive the same amount of damage himself. So basically, gogeta is taking whatever damage he dishes out, and then whatever hell unleashed by darsh.
E) New creation: He can create other life forms from memory alone. It apparently does not require power, as he Created a seraph-class (although amrael is weaker than uriel/raphael etc.) being when he had literally no power left. He could virtually create a Gogeta and have them fight to death.
5. Direct Attack Advantages:
A) Venom: Summoning a hellish enzyme to break gogeta down from inside out. No defense shown.
B) Temperature spells: With spells like black sabbath, he can vaporise Gogeta. The spell reaches millions of degrees in base form, while the highest temperature resisted in GT is about 7000 c.
C) Dark Energy attacks: He can attack with dark energy to easily dispose of gogeta.
D) Atomization and Erasing from existance: With Judas priest, he can completely kill Gogeta.
E) Absolute Zero: Can freeze Gogeta at absolute Zero, and completely annihilate him.
E) Black holes: He can open a black hole in gogeta. Highest gravity resisted: 400x in Z. Currently facing: infinite gravitation. Meaning death.
F) LAGB: A Spell Strong enough to completely destroy dispel bound.
G) Light wings breaker: Can seperate cause dimensional seperation/ make dimensional jumps himself.
I think any of these should be enough to say Schneider takes this handily enough.
@princearagorn1: @neongamewaveIn the sake of fairness *even though its less of a debate* we need to ignore Gogeta's time limit. He's all ready got enough problems.
Also...and I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Darshe's on-panel "Sharingan" was meant as a joke lol.
And here's is the DS respect thread for reference. It is more detailed than any other wiki/respect thread I could find. (which I why I made it in the first place)
(and I feel like I'm forgetting something, so..ya)
But anyway...Prince you can debate the fore-front of it since you seem happy to. I'll just keep and eye out and correct anything since I just recently reread the entire manga and have fresh knowledge!
Basically, let me start by making my viewpoint clear. Darshe has about everything gogeta has, and he has more. So it should be quite clear that he can take it. Here's a Comparison of the two by different stats:
1. Raw Power:
Something that generally gives Dbz characters an advantage, but works against them here.
SSJ4 Gogeta: Massively multigalaxy, arguably universal. Both via statements/scaling.
Dark Schneider: Universal+ As a side effect in his fight, which Destroyed a reality on-panel, as well as broke a supermassive black hole of fifty million suns mass.
Edge: Dark Schneider.
This is highly debatable, arguable and hypothetical the raw power of SSJ4 Gogeta isn`t to be underestimated at full power he is multiversal he god-stomped a universal force by holding back....... His raw power is more than just raw power behind the magnet that moves its feathers of force he was able to compel, extrapolate, expose, expel thus purify universal dark magic that was able to corrupt reality warping physics in one move of power.
The only specification you can make in regards to Darshe is that his raw power varies or is visually grander but its no different nor more impressive than what Gogeta can do at full power he will not make Darshe a laughing stock he will annihilate with all he has got as a SS Warrior going to war.
2. Speed:
SSJ4 Gogeta: Mftl, and has teleportation.
Dark Schneider: Casually blitzed Mftl people before turning Majin form, and later using Dragon Knight power up. Has Exchanged infinite attacks and counters every instant against fallen uriel, As well as has teleportation himself.
Gogeta is actually MFTL+++++, we have to remember that when he took on the dark dragon known as Omega Shenron he was holding back 95% of his overall power and he still managed these types of speeds I don`t see him getting blitzed at all even when pulling his punches he was able to react and hit Omega in one strike that was invisible literally invisible or untraceable to the eye also he has telekinesis and telepathy of his own so I don`t see him getting blitzed or outmaneuvered, he could maybe startle Gogeta but that`s the only thing that he could hopefully manage to succeed in doing everything else is speculation or wishful thinking.
3. Durability, defenses, Endurance:
SSJ4 Gogeta: Possibly universal+ durability. No specific defense shown.
Dark Schneider: Has taken punches equal to nuclear bombs in base, resisted being erased out of reality etc. More importantly, has a Shield, or dispel bound. It bans every conceivable and inconceivable form of attack, and it's strong enough that he was unscathed after taking on universal+ destruction, and the shields were present. The shields are auto, can regenerate, and can be repaired.
Gogeta is multiversal, Omega Shenron by all sources and resources of reasoning is a confirmed a universal destroyed, Gogeta mega-stomped him at his minimal levels its pretty clear that he`s a multiversal level Saiyan.
Goku in his kid form was able to conjure, concentrate and cast an energy wave that destroyed an entire dimension some say it was a small dimension but that`s false it was actually a massive reality it was interconnected with other realms if you watch the entire series of episodes that lead up to it. Goku in his SSJ4 form has survived and endured through attacks that were greater than nuclear bombs the only thing that would be of great worry is Dispel Bound but Gogeta could just create hundreds of himself through ki manipulation and since has no time limit he could make it far more easier through his raw power.
4. Battle Advantages:
A) Precognition: Darsh can read minds from a distance, as well as access inter company resources like sharingan. That gives him a precognition advantage.
B) Regeneration: Darsh has immensely hax regeneration, he has regenerated back from being a head, and the regeneration works even when your atoms are being destroyed.
C) Eternal Atoms: Darsh can continue to exist, and will regenerate, as long as he's not destroyed from every plane of existence. His mind, body, and soul should be destroyed. Goku does not have the tools required to destroy his mind, nor his soul.
D) Bloodstone: Bloodstone is a cursed space, cast on himself. Whoever attacks him will receive the same amount of damage himself. So basically, gogeta is taking whatever damage he dishes out, and then whatever hell unleashed by darsh.
A) Gogeta has telepathy and KI Sense which will counter Darshe`s precognition also the sharingan wouldn`t be an issue once Gogeta multiplies also it seemed to be more of a gag than anything else but I respect your reasoning.
B) So has Omega Shenron he has regenerated from being obliterated from existence 100% in the sense of having been erased but with his healing factor he has managed to return and he couldn`t hold off long enough against a Gogeta who was clowning around also remember that Gogeta could multiply so it all balances out at the end of the day.
C) Actually Gogeta does not Goku but Gogeta certainly does with his godlike ki he could have him erased through a Multiversal-Spirit Bomb-Big Bang Kamehameha Attack and this could be achieved by a bloodlusted Gogeta who has on a higher tier when it comes to ki also if he was able to completely erase Omega`s life force then I don`t see why wouldn`t be able to especially since it was shown that he was able to reverse the magic and reality warping mechanics that corrupted the Dragon Balls.
D) This could maybe work but there`s a problem, a major problem..... Gogeta can multiply so who`s to say it would be cast on a clone and not the real Gogeta who would be using a brain strategic with type minds of two experienced Saiyans? All of that buffoonery and clowning antics was wasted on Omega here he would be going in for the absolute termination so his determination would rise against occasion thus the opposition which is Darshe. Gogeta`s multiplying technique would save him and who`s not to say he wouldn`t be able to strategically use this against Darshe? Especially since diffusion is an option, its nothing like Vegito and the Potara Earrings.
5. Direct Attack Advantages:
A) Venom: Summoning a hellish enzyme to break gogeta down from inside out. No defense shown.
A) Gogeta could repel this with his ki energy and he has resisted negative energy if I`m not mistaken so it should work.
B) Temperature spells: With spells like black sabbath, he can vaporise Gogeta. The spell reaches millions of degrees in base form, while the highest temperature resisted in GT is about 7000 c.
B) If Goku alone can adapt, resist and utilize his shortcomings as an advantage when fighting Nuova Shenron in which he alone exhibited heat levels that surpassed the surface of the sun in his base and then he evolved where he was multiplied that output then should Gogeta worry when its another SSJ4 level being fused with him in one resistance?
C) Dark Energy attacks: He can attack with dark energy to easily dispose of gogeta.
C) Gogeta has dispelled and expelled dark energies from that of the universal dragon Omega as well as the Shadow Dragon Balls so it shouldn`t be different here regardless of character classification.
D) Atomization and Erasing from existance: With Judas priest, he can completely kill Gogeta.
D) Gogeta could do the same in regards to erasing Darshe with a Multiversal Spirit Bomb or Big Bang Kamehameha or just both also he could multiply himself.
E) Absolute Zero: Can freeze Gogeta at absolute Zero, and completely annihilate him.
E) Goku alone has resisted really high tempatures of cold freezing as Gogeta this should be nothing to him especially since his ki energy is a protective barrier and we both know what happens a DB character harnesses their Ki with the intended energy level.
E) Black holes: He can open a black hole in gogeta. Highest gravity resisted: 400x in Z. Currently facing: infinite gravitation. Meaning death.
Now this would be quite the critical problem but Gogeta has shown not only rapid and impossible speed but also teleportation he would be able to avoid this or even use his multiplication technique to avoid any external damage from the internal nature of the technique.
F) LAGB: A Spell Strong enough to completely destroy dispel bound.
F) Impressive but it doesn`t constitute as a win against Gogeta who can also destroy as much as Dispel Bounds as he wants.
G) Light wings breaker: Can seperate cause dimensional seperation/ make dimensional jumps himself.
Interesting and sound point but a countermeasure can be made by Gogeta with teleportation or IT which is dimensional in and out of itself so its impressive but nothing impressively and originally new especially to the likes of a SSJ4 Saiyan combination.
I think any of these should be enough to say Schneider takes this handily enough.
Any of these prove the fact that power can be canceled out by an equal or greater potential power and as with every point I countered or explained this fact even furthers itself to being brought to light as well as life, Gogeta`s power is so great a universal power is no match for him even when he`s only minimizing his full potential.
Also nice choice of music, really epic reminds me of E.S Posthumus :)
Also nice choice of music, really epic reminds me of E.S Posthumus :)
Yep, two steps from hell does make very awesome music. (Also try X-ray Dog if you're free, they're quite brilliant as well)
So, let's discuss the points one at a time, as I discussed in the PM. (Argument, and 2 counters from both sides) And you can pick anyone to join and help you if you want, it's quite fun.
First with Raw Power: Prince's Counter 1:
Argument: Raw Power:
Something that generally gives Dbz characters an advantage, but works against them here.
SSJ4 Gogeta: Massively multigalaxy, arguably universal. Both via statements/scaling.
Dark Schneider: Universal+ As a side effect in his fight, which Destroyed a reality on-panel, as well as broke a supermassive black hole of fifty million suns mass.
Edge: Dark Schneider.
Neon's Counter 1:
This is highly debatable, arguable and hypothetical the raw power of SSJ4 Gogeta isn`t to be underestimated at full power he is multiversal he god-stomped a universal force by holding back....... His raw power is more than just raw power behind the magnet that moves its feathers of force he was able to compel, extrapolate, expose, expel thus purify universal dark magic that was able to corrupt reality warping physics in one move of power.
The only specification you can make in regards to Darshe is that his raw power varies or is visually grander but its no different nor more impressive than what Gogeta can do at full power he will not make Darshe a laughing stock he will annihilate with all he has got as a SS Warrior going to war.
We're not underestimating SS4 Gogeta's raw power at all. We're just saying it's still very greatly surpassed by darsh.
Before we begin, I needed to ask you something. How much more powerful do you think Gogeta ssj4 is than Goku ssj4?
1. First, to clear out one important point:
Goku breaking through the dimension in GT:
Loading Video...
It does not require universal power. It requires a very small amount (compared to the scale of this battle)
As said by the statement at 0:10. "Oh my word! He has enough power in his body to light up an entire galaxy!".
It was the power to light up a galaxy, not even destroy it. So it shouldn't really be a feat of raw power worth mentioning in the battle. So base goku may be argued as a galaxy lighter-up at high end, or if you are generous, destroyer.
2. Now, if we look at the ssj multipliers, there are two theories leading to ssj4, controlled power of a super oozaru:
theory 1: SSJ4:
SS1: 50x Base.
SS2: 2x SS1=100x base.
SS3: 4x SS2 = 400x base.
So, SS4= 8x SS3= 3200x Base.
and theory 2:
Oozaru: 10x Base.
Super oozaru: 50x oozaru = 500x Base.
SS4: Either same, or twice boost due to control over power = 1000X base.
Highest end, it's about 4000x base. So, SSJ4 Goku can't even destroy one ten thousandth portion of observable universe, much less the release anything anywhere close to a big bang.
Now, it's Gogeta we're talking about, so he might be a whole lot stronger. Still, I don't see him reaching universal potential any time soon, only reason I gave him universal+ is because you said Omega shenron is arguable universe buster (I haven't heard of any quotes supporting this, though) and his strongest attack is called big bang kamehameha (Which, in light of the current calc, seems to be just a name).
3. Now, assuming he somehow reaches universal+ potential, it still isn't comparable, as darsh already achieved it as a side effect of his fight:
The description of breaking through black abyss:
And the event in action:
A shot of black abyss/satan:
Note that black abyss is a supermassive blackhole, with mass of fifty million suns, power above billions of supernova, and able to trap time itself:
They destroy hell, and break out of the black abyss.
Achieving this kind of power, even when he's firing directly, not as side effect, looks to be way out of league of Gogeta's league from what we have seen of either.
3. Now, as for the "Gogeta was Holding back" Argument.
Yes. He was holding back. But as for raw power, what we have seen doesn't even begin to come close to what we have seen from dark Schneider's MDS/DKL forms.
Even if we say he might rival them when he is serious in raw power, which looks unlikely in the first place, Dark schneider's also has next form: Adam of Darkness. And it's pretty clear that upgrade from a transformation is massively higher than simply stopping from holding back.
Considering the nature of upgrades he has got each time, it's safe to assume that his power is on entirely different level, and it's also backed by his only feat of adam of darkness.
So basically, what we have seen from darsh is way above anything seen from gogeta. Even assuming gogeta goes all out, and somehow manages to come close to replicating feats of DKL, darsh still has another card left, (goes the next form, another level), while gogeta has nothing remaining.
That said, the raw power pretty clearly goes in favour of DKL dark schneider.
Also nice choice of music, really epic reminds me of E.S Posthumus :)
Yep, two steps from hell does make very awesome music. (Also try X-ray Dog if you're free, they're quite brilliant as well)
I agree and thanks for the recommendations, I heard some of X-Ray Dog`s musical content its really heavy as well as phenomenal when it comes to pure composition!
So, let's discuss the points one at a time, as I discussed in the PM. (Argument, and 2 counters from both sides) And you can pick anyone to join and help you if you want, it's quite fun.
Awesome!
First with Raw Power: Prince's Counter 1:
Argument: Raw Power:
Something that generally gives Dbz characters an advantage, but works against them here.
SSJ4 Gogeta: Massively multigalaxy, arguably universal. Both via statements/scaling.
Dark Schneider: Universal+ As a side effect in his fight, which Destroyed a reality on-panel, as well as broke a supermassive black hole of fifty million suns mass.
Edge: Dark Schneider.
Neon's Counter 1:
This is highly debatable, arguable and hypothetical the raw power of SSJ4 Gogeta isn`t to be underestimated at full power he is multiversal he god-stomped a universal force by holding back....... His raw power is more than just raw power behind the magnet that moves its feathers of force he was able to compel, extrapolate, expose, expel thus purify universal dark magic that was able to corrupt reality warping physics in one move of power.
The only specification you can make in regards to Darshe is that his raw power varies or is visually grander but its no different nor more impressive than what Gogeta can do at full power he will not make Darshe a laughing stock he will annihilate with all he has got as a SS Warrior going to war.
We're not underestimating SS4 Gogeta's raw power at all. We're just saying it's still very greatly surpassed by darsh.
Not necessarily you have to remember that SSJ4 Gogeta was nowhere at his peak when he murderstomped Omega Shenron who could quantify and qualify as someone who would be at Darshe`s tier if not very close.
Before we begin, I needed to ask you something. How much more powerful do you think Gogeta ssj4 is than Goku ssj4?
Good question, this question and situation does hold a lot of variables but in terms of overall analysis what I can conclude to is that SSJ4 Gogeta is more than millions of times more powerful than Goku at his weakest if were to downgrade or lowball him to match a calculus comparison although I wouldn`t want to get too involved in absolutes or power scaling.
1. First, to clear out one important point:
Goku breaking through the dimension in GT:
Loading Video...
It does not require universal power. It requires a very small amount (compared to the scale of this battle)
The core element and dynamic that is important is the level of reality that is involved its a massive dimensional plane, I watched the episodes that corresponds with this scene or scenario, the dimension is an extensive one, an entire reality compacted or a pocket dimension what makes it more impressive is the fact that Goku destroyed it in his weakest, absolute weakest form without exerting too much power.
As said by the statement at 0:10. "Oh my word! He has enough power in his body to light up an entire galaxy!".
Good point and I understand but what was shown is something greater than a galaxy in scope even if it were to be near galaxy leveling-level it doesn`t take away from what a SSJ4 Gogeta could do since SSJ4 Goku alone is quite the astonishing and profound leap in potency energized power level and that wasn`t Goku`s true power either, he could of excelled in greater ki power so it isn`t clean cut exactly accurate technically speaking.
It was the power to light up a galaxy, not even destroy it. So it shouldn't really be a feat of raw power worth mentioning in the battle. So base goku may be argued as a galaxy lighter-up at high end, or if you are generous, destroyer.
Not true, that wasn`t Goku at his strongest he wasn`t only harnessing his ki energies to light up would to be to encompass or cover the entire zone who`s not to say he wouldn`t be able to blow up a galaxy while at it if he so chooses? Also that was Goku in his kid form not Super Saiyan forms which already at as ridiculous multipliers to that crazy level of power, not SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 and of course SSJ4 let alone SSJ4 Gogeta who has the combined raw energy of another overpowered powerhouse.
2. Now, if we look at the ssj multipliers, there are two theories leading to ssj4, controlled power of a super oozaru:
theory 1: SSJ4:
SS1: 50x Base.
SS2: 2x SS1=100x base.
SS3: 4x SS2 = 400x base.
So, SS4= 8x SS3= 3200x Base.
and theory 2:
Oozaru: 10x Base.
Super oozaru: 50x oozaru = 500x Base.
SS4: Either same, or twice boost due to control over power = 1000X base.
Highest end, it's about 4000x base. So, SSJ4 Goku can't even destroy one ten thousandth portion of observable universe, much less the release anything anywhere close to a big bang.
Highly untrue and unproven your missing the main point which is missing from the schematics of your equations. The Oozaru forms aren`t quite needed or made too important but the fact is as followed. Goku in his KID form alone was able to produce that much output and we can`t say he was using his entire potential he was only harnessing his ki energy for a specific task which was to blow up the reality/dimensional space they were trapped in, if you were to look at from a more logical less speculative view it would line up with how the functionality works in regards to scaling.
SS1: 50x Base. This would literally multiply 50x the potential of kid Goku`s minimal energy potential which by your argument can only light up a galaxy but we can`t deny that Goku could of harnessed more ki energy if he wanted to.
SS2: 2x SS1=100x base. - This doubles and multiples that given power Goku would be more than a multi galaxy buster by that point.
SS3: 4x SS2 = 400x base. - Goku would be within the tier of universal energy busting
So, SS4= 8x SS3= 3200x Base. - Then finally universal busting is more valid
Now, it's Gogeta we're talking about, so he might be a whole lot stronger. Still, I don't see him reaching universal potential any time soon, only reason I gave him universal+ is because you said Omega shenron is arguable universe buster (I haven't heard of any quotes supporting this, though) and his strongest attack is called big bang kamehameha (Which, in light of the current calc, seems to be just a name).
I actually see Gogeta as being a multiversal powerhouse, after-all Kid Goku didn`t even use his true might and he was able to destroy an entire reality even smaller compacted forms of his energy can light up a galaxy with the multiplications it only makes sense he reaches to the point of universal especially in the scale of the enemy he beats and Omega Shenron was a confirmed universe buster, SSJ4 Gogeta and many others had problems taking him down but once Gogeta stepped unto the scene he easily mopped the floor with Omega the power difference is to great to limit any truth or potential that was indicated or confirmed. The Kais confirmed Omega was a universal buster and Mr Popo also made mention of this during the series of GT. The Big Bang Kamehameha is more than just a name it carries a lot of power as does its name without having to worry about namesake he was able to overpower Omega`s regeneration, reality warping and universal essence it took a Universal Spirit Bomb to destroy Omega and Gogeta exhibited energies on that level as well as above without having to go truly all out and his time restraints limited him in the process as well.
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Loading Video...
Now this is impressive, but I`m pretty sure this could be avoided and overpowered by Gogeta`s raw power as well as versatility.
The description of breaking through black abyss:
And the event in action:
A shot of black abyss/satan:
Note that black abyss is a supermassive blackhole, with mass of fifty million suns, power above billions of supernova, and able to trap time itself:
They destroy hell, and break out of the black abyss.
3. Now, assuming he somehow reaches universal+ potential, it still isn't comparable, as darsh already achieved it as a side effect of his fight:
Achieving this kind of power, even when he's firing directly, not as side effect, looks to be way out of league of Gogeta's league from what we have seen of either.
Its more grandiose and visual I`ll give Darshe that but it doesn`t actually prove why or justify for why he would be able to win against Gogeta`s raw power who could easily replicate a force of power that great since he`s bloodlusted when`s the last time Goku was truly bloodlusted or without morals on his own?
3. Now, as for the "Gogeta was Holding back" Argument.
Yes. He was holding back. But as for raw power, what we have seen doesn't even begin to come close to what we have seen from dark Schneider's MDS/DKL forms.
Well Gogeta holding back is quite the statement and fact because even with such a restraint on his power level he was able to stomp a universal force also he never used his full potential imagine him battling with his mind at his peak.
Even if we say he might rival them when he is serious in raw power, which looks unlikely in the first place, Dark schneider's also has next form: Adam of Darkness. And it's pretty clear that upgrade from a transformation is massively higher than simply stopping from holding back.
Now this could prove to be a problem but Gogeta going all out could even the odds since his lowest power indications showcase something really immense and his ki energy is greater than that of a universal spirit bomb so him not holding back to prove to be a problem against Darshe who`s main advantage is his versatility. Gogeta could always multiply and Darshe would be fighting 5-10 versions of Gogeta at one given time.
Considering the nature of upgrades he has got each time, it's safe to assume that his power is on entirely different level, and it's also backed by his only feat of adam of darkness.
His power is off the charts and he is hax to the max but Gogeta can prevail with his near invincibility his raw power alone can hold off Darshe but his untapped power is what I believe will win him the fight he could repel his magic and reality warping its nothing new to him it will only be deadly or surprising at first but he could always even the plain field with his techniques that vary.
So basically, what we have seen from darsh is way above anything seen from gogeta. Even assuming gogeta goes all out, and somehow manages to come close to replicating feats of DKL, darsh still has another card left, (goes the next form, another level), while gogeta has nothing remaining.
That is a sound argument and point but Gogeta does still have his multiplication technique which could simply overwhelm Darshe he also has the Spirit Bomb technique which he could use to dispose of Darshe for good before things spiral out of control but it would be very close however, I think Gogeta doesn`t only have the stats and potential to take on Darshe head on but he could win with his strategic methods or battle experience.
That said, the raw power pretty clearly goes in favour of DKL dark schneider.
The raw power goes in favor of Gogeta, Darshe just has versatility to validate the raw power advantage.
Good question, this question and situation does hold a lot of variables but in terms of overall analysis what I can conclude to is that SSJ4 Gogeta is more than millions of times more powerful than Goku at his weakest if were to downgrade or lowball him to match a calculus comparison although I wouldn`t want to get too involved in absolutes or power scaling.
Before we go any further, I'll have to address this point.
Are you saying ss4 gogeta is millions of times more powerful than goku at his weakest, or millions of times more powerful than ss4 goku?
The latter is more important for my argument, how will you quantify (SSJ4 all out gogeta)/(SSJ4 serious goku)?
A little scaling/reasoning behind it will be welcome.
Good question, this question and situation does hold a lot of variables but in terms of overall analysis what I can conclude to is that SSJ4 Gogeta is more than millions of times more powerful than Goku at his weakest if were to downgrade or lowball him to match a calculus comparison although I wouldn`t want to get too involved in absolutes or power scaling.
Before we go any further, I'll have to address this point.
Are you saying ss4 gogeta is millions of times more powerful than goku at his weakest, or millions of times more powerful than ss4 goku?
The latter is more important for my argument, how will you quantify (SSJ4 all out gogeta)/(SSJ4 serious goku)?
A little scaling/reasoning behind it will be welcome.
I meant SSJ4 Goku if we are to have the smallest estimation in regards to leveling down Gogeta since he is such a ridicously overpowered character, Kid Goku wouldn`t appear on the radar in my opinion when in comparison, he would only pale in comparison lol.
Good question, in terms of being in a situation of having to be bloodlusted it becomes extremely interesting since Goku isn`t the one to go all out at a bloodlusted rate or have a state in mood and mode but it does change a lot of the dynamics since Goku would manipulate his ki energy differently also he would be able to exude a power out that is at a more destructive rate. A bloodlusted SSJ4 Gogeta would be almost in some sense of a hypothetical perspective mega millions upon mega millions times (or even billion times) more powerful than a SSJ4 Goku (bloodlusted).
The power difference and gap is pretty significant to behold because when Goku took on Syn Shenron he had an issue and later got stomped by an Omega Shenron who easily tanked his Kamehameha which would be at least universal power since his increase from Kid Goku being that he destroyed an entire reality in a held back state and Goku during some occassions during the series has shown to showcase a greater harnessing and therefore output of ki energy that wasn`t his limit which makes it more plausible as well as impressive. He has three SSJ transformations which more than multiply his already monstrous raw power until reaching his final and ultimate state SSJ4 (I wonder how SSJ5 would look in GT) so it shows how powerful Shenron was also Shenron easily stomped the other Dragon Ball characters with ease, the main cast of characters. SSJ4 Vegeta would roughly be around SSJ4 Goku`s level and he would be of the same caliber so to have two of these powerhouses fuse into one entity speaks a lot of volumes both ki energies are being fused together into one so its not simply a singular momentous its a force to be reckon with, the transformation of power is so great that you can even make the argument for the fact that the other heroes/allies even together wouldn`t be able to match or comprehend that kind of power that Gogeta possessed everybody with ki sense could sense how powerful the transformation was and Omega did not stand one bit of a chance even when Gogeta was clearly just joking around which cost him the fight, however a bloodlusted Gogeta would fully realize his potential and make quick work of the opposition.
@neongamewave: I will need some sort of scaling, or proof, or at least reasoning as to why SS4 gogeta is billions of times stronger than SS4 goku. Because, throughout dragonball, no fusion (including the more effective potara fusions) has ever reached that kind of power.
If you are saying so because he humiliated Omega shenron, in dragon ball, you don't even have to be twice as strong to absolutely humiliate your opponent. Take vegeta vs cui for example (22k and 19k) Vegeta still one shotted cui, while shenron tanked a kamehameha.
@neongamewave: I will need some sort of scaling, or proof, or at least reasoning as to why SS4 gogeta is billions of times stronger than SS4 goku. Because, throughout dragonball, no fusion (including the more effective potara fusions) has ever reached that kind of power.
If you are saying so because he humiliated Omega shenron, in dragon ball, you don't even have to be twice as strong to absolutely humiliate your opponent. Take vegeta vs cui for example (22k and 19k) Vegeta still one shotted cui, while shenron tanked a kamehameha.
That`s the thing about GT it kind of branches off from the standard which is why many criticize it but I see it clearly in the thematic foundations. Battle of Gods suggested those types of levels but GT scales higher and there is even indication for DBZ being connected to GT as the power levels of those same characters massively increase to face massively powerful opponents.
He humiliated Omega at his lowest level but the difference between the two scenarios is that Vegeta and Cui are of a close PL with Vegeta having the power level to justify for his winning also Omega alone was a universal power so the power bases are based differently and Omega tanked the Kamehameha with no scratch while Cui was one-shotted.
@neongamewave: I still don't see how gogeta is more than twice strong than shenron.
The fact that kui was one shotted by someone with less than 1.3 times more powerful, but shenron took a kamehameha clearly says something.
Even if GT is different from standard, the difference between 1.3 and billions is way too much.
Well if you were to scale Omega Shenron and SSJ4 Goku it would become more logical as well as apparent because Omega is many times more powerful than a SSJ4 Goku plus SSJ4 Vegeta, Trunks, Uub and etc.
Well the two scenarios are quite different and the its not too much considering Z would of have factored millions of times but it takes away from Omega or Gogeta at the end of the day.
@neongamewave: Scaling SS4 gogeta and omega shenron, actually.
Many times, say.. five-ten is one thing. But hundred times seems a bit too much, and you're talking billions, without any basis, and contradicting everything shown till the moment..
@neongamewave: Scaling SS4 gogeta and omega shenron, actually.
Many times, say.. five-ten is one thing. But hundred times seems a bit too much, and you're talking billions, without any basis, and contradicting everything shown till the moment..
I understand but the dynamics kind of shift differently the power differences are quite big but it doesn`t take away from what is confirmed in regards to the level of power they can accomplish.
It doesn`t actually contradict much it only complicates the scaling and speculative measures.
But I don't see how shenron can take kamehameha of someone over five times stronger than he was, considering it completely contradicts everything we have ever seen in the series.
But I don't see how shenron can take kamehameha of someone over five times stronger than he was, considering it completely contradicts everything we have ever seen in the series.
SSJ4 Goku wasn`t stronger than Syn Shenron and Shenron stomped Goku as well its not really a contradiction the level leap from SSJ4 Goku to SSJ4 Gogeta is the key importance.
@neongamewave: Obviously. I'm not saying he is stronger than shenron. I just don't get where you're getting their power difference being more than 2x.. much less billions.
@neongamewave: Obviously. I'm not saying he is stronger than shenron. I just don't get where you're getting their power difference being more than 2x.. much less billions.
Well by the multipliers of the original SSJ forms we could make a hypothetical perspective for how powerful the difference would be and Gogeta would still remain as a multiversal power which is why I stated earlier that I would rather refrain from too much power scaling territories.
@neongamewave: well, of course. No need to do too much power scaling. But you have given really nothing to say ss4 gogeta is, say.. more than 10x strong as ss4 goku. How exactly I'm supposed to grant billions of times?
@neongamewave: well, of course. No need to do too much power scaling. But you have given really nothing to say ss4 gogeta is, say.. more than 10x strong as ss4 goku. How exactly I'm supposed to grant billions of times?
I understand but it was more of a hypothetical and logical viewpoint in terms of the fundamental comparisons of DBZ vs DB:GT.
@neongamewave: So, what exactly is the logic behind SS4 gogeta being more than 10x stronger than SS4 goku?
Due to defeating an enemy that was many times more powerful than a SSJ4 Goku, SSJ4 Vegeta, Trunks and etc. 10x is a rough estimation because of how powerful the GT characters are.
But nothing indicated omega shenron being more than twice strong than either SSJ4 in the first place..?
He did stomp Goku real easy and tanked a fully charged Kamehameha also the fact that Goku had to elevate himself to another power level through his fusion with Vegeta validates this we wouldn`t say Omega is equal or only a factor times more powerful than SSJ4 Goku the power difference was and is too great for it to be so minimal.
And as I said, you don't have to be more than twice stronger than someone to stomp them. But even if we did say two is a very low estimate, I don't think we can estimate the gap between ss4 Goku and ss4 Gogeta to be more than 10x. Certainly not over 100x, much less billions.
And as I said, you don't have to be more than twice stronger than someone to stomp them. But even if we did say two is a very low estimate, I don't think we can estimate the gap between ss4 Goku and ss4 Gogeta to be more than 10x. Certainly not over 100x, much less billions.
I understand your point but its the measurement of power throughout the transformations that are the factored forms of interest. Higher estimates increase with higher power levels, however the same facts remain as signature facts even if we are to dismiss numbers, scaling, and hypothetical theories we can`t ignore the transitions as well as none numerical facets which are dimensional, universal, multiversal and etc those values remain within the contexts of the words themselves.
@neongamewave: Didn't get what you're trying to say tbh.
To add clarity to what I meant within the above post, I was bringing light to the fact that even if we are to dismiss and debate about the credibility of how big the scaling gets within the numerical nature of Dragon Ball GT, it doesn`t take away from the value of Gogeta being a multiversal buster same goes for Omega and SSJ4 Goku.
@neongamewave: But how exactly is gogeta is a multiverse buster? No feats or speculation put them above universe busting?
Base goku: Galaxy buster.
SS4 goku: 4000 Galaxy buster.
SS4 gogeta: 40000 Galaxy buster, not even a millionth of universe.
Not even a millionth of universe buster in one shot. Nothing in Z or GT has ever mentioned anything on universal+ scale.
Well there are feats and indications, I wouldnt call it speculations the background for the information is present.
Base Goku: Is more than a galaxy buster like I said previously that wasn`t Goku`s true maximum output he`s been shown to channel more ki energy on more than one occasion.
SS4 Goku: Goku has three SSJ transformations right after his base form which is directly rooted from his sealed Kid Form his ki energy multiples by a great deal by becoming his SSJ4 form he was able to take on a universal buster at his lowest we would consider him to be a multi-galaxy buster.
SS4 Gogeta: Universal Spirit Bomb finished Omega but Gogeta was able to crack through his durability with his attacks and the output equals that force but is greater, Gogeta never displayed his true potential he is definitely multiversal.
Omega was confirmed throughout the story as being a universal power and he confirmed himself right after his increase so that`s false also in Z there are references to these very same things, GT actually displays it within the cinematics and visuals.
The energy in his body was enough to light up a galaxy. Considering he can't throw all his power at once, the kamehameha was even lower. Meaning, he cannot destroy a galaxy in one blast in base form.
The energy in his body was enough to light up a galaxy. Considering he can't throw all his power at once, the kamehameha was even lower. Meaning, he cannot destroy a galaxy in one blast in base form.
Well the context in and out of itself is varied because what was assumed is at that moment he had enough energy to light up an entire galaxy based on ki sense which Sugoro also had as a natural sensory, and Goku didn`t exert himself he only channeled as he also harnessed the necessary output to destroy that big dimensional reality also what makes it more impressive is the fact that right after it was destroyed Goku was able to teleport or traverse to the other side of another reality (void) which then he was rescued by a Supreme Kai.
Considering goku had no reason to be holding back at the point, it can be safely said that is his maximum output.
And he did not "destroy" the reality, they simply broke out of it.
Excellent point and I understand what you mean but it wouldn`t mean Goku would have to use every single form of ki energy or essence just to pull it off he has done big things in big moments without having to try too much he looked pretty cocky or confident in that moment as well which also furthers my point he had a big smirk indicating he knew what to do also Goku challenges the nature of danger when things get tough surrounding his personal friends and family then that`s when the scenario switches for the worse when he wouldn`t hold back a sweat.
They actually destroyed it, I watched the series of episodes and the small arc as well, the reality completely dissolved. I had this debate with Isaac Clarke
@neongamewave: How do you plan to back it up, though? We can't base things on sheer opinion. If the energy in his body is galaxy level, he can't destroy more than a galaxy..
@neongamewave: How do you plan to back it up, though? We can't base things on sheer opinion. If the energy in his body is galaxy level, he can't destroy more than a galaxy..
Well I explained why it`s not merely galaxy level even if we are to conclude and agree upon the fact that Goku is only galaxy level at base we have to remember there are three literal transformations right after that which amplifies that very same ki level and if Kid Goku were to put his all within that of one single energy blast it wouldn`t simply be a multi or galaxy level busting attack and neither would it be even be of that low energy radius.
1. Goku only had energy enough to light up a galaxy in his body, so the kamehameha of base goku is below galaxy level.
2. He only broke out of the dimension, not destroy it.
3. Even if he did destroy it, the dimension had nothing showing it to be larger than a galaxy, it had planets at best (dimensions can have varying sizes, like the multicity sized one ichigo destroyed by going bankai)
Overall, proving base goku cannot bust more than a galaxy.
So, do you agree, or can you sum up your reasons to disagree?
Note that we are discussing base goku only, we will get to the transformed forms later.
1. Goku only had energy enough to light up a galaxy in his body, so the kamehameha of base goku is below galaxy level.
2. He only broke out of the dimension, not destroy it.
3. Even if he did destroy it, the dimension had nothing showing it to be larger than a galaxy, it had planets at best (dimensions can have varying sizes, like the multicity sized one ichigo destroyed by going bankai)
Overall, proving base goku cannot bust more than a galaxy.
So, do you agree, or can you sum up your reasons to disagree?
Well if we are to argue that, lighting up a galaxy logically would be qualified as having the potential to bust a galaxy if channeled to do so because the output is as great as the input to create the result.
He destroyed it was shown to shatter and in the original Japanese sub its confirmed that he busted out completely the dimension did not reform either also there was another reality behind it furthering this fact.
Good point but it was far larger if you watch all of the episodes leading up to that point and after that point it is shown that there are subsections within those dimensions like a pocketed dimension which arguably could be in some cases comparable to a universe and its scale.
Well even if we are to agree on it, it doesn`t actually take away from SSJ4 Goku or SSJ4 Gogeta, the scaling still appropriates itself onto the flow of the facts.
I respectfully disagree but I appreciate your perspective and I`m looking at it from your angle to see the possible confirmations :)
You are correct, those are the SSJ transformations and their multiplications in power that are scaled within those numerical values (roughly after a certain point).
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