Rules For Voters:
Battle Conditions:
Post Limit:
Location:
Mandalore Throne Room
Ben Solo
“Ow”
Life Story:
Saber Skill:
Speed:
Force Abilities:
Conclusion:
Pre Vizsla was a Mandalorian member of House Vizsla, one of the most famous and most powerful clan of Mandalore. Once long ago Mandalorians were a kind of powerful and established warriors famous in the whole galaxy, however following a chain of events they lost their agressive way and warmonger traditions ultimately becoming much more peaceful and according to loyalist of the Old Way, weak. Pre Vizsla was among those who wanted to restore Mandalore agressive and warrior traditions, restoring the planet and people to his once former glory and once again wage war against the Jedi Order. To do so he led a group of terrorist name "Death Watch" in various battles and personally fought Count Dooku, Obi-Wan and even Darth Maul which killed him.
While Vizsla is no trained Jedi or even a force-user he is still remarkably skilled with a lightsaber. Vizsla weapon of choice for CQC combat is "The Darksaber" a blade which was once the personal sword of Mandalore the Great and since then became the symbolic representation of the strongest Mandalorian and therefore the ruler of Mandalore.
S4 Ahsoka Tano was clearly bested by Pre Vizsla, he was clearly the superior warrior. It is worth noting that during the fight with Ahsoka Vizsla mostly used his CQC skills and did not abused his gadgets and other weapons like he did against Maul, suggesting that he was clearly at this point much above her considering he mainly fought her in CQC and was pressuring her in the defensive even so . Full video here .
Ahsoka even at this point was honestly clearly above your average Jedi Knight by feats. As a reference years before her duel with Pre Vizsla she was already capable to lol-stomp various Super battle droids in a confined space with her lightsaber skills. This is only one of her casual feats she did when she was only about 13 years old in the early TCW episodes, but she have also feats much more impressive and which actually are about dueling established force-users opponents
Years before her duel with Pre Vizsla she was capable to engage 1vs1 and survive a duel against Ventress Yes Ahsoka did get help during the fight but it is worth to note that she managed to engage by herself and trade blows with Ventress for about 20 seconds before the guards actually manage to make their interference and after that Ventress still wasn't capable to quickly kill her like she should be. This feat is very impressive for several reasons , first of all Ahsoka is a padawan of 13 years old in this scene and she lack experience and training and Ventress was noted to be extremely skilled duelist and capable to be more than a match for Jedi Masters
Extremely skilled with the red-bladed weapons, Ventress fights the Jedi Master Luminara Unduli to a standstill during her assault on the attack cruiser Tranquility.
Ventress as you know engaged multiple times both Obi-Wan and Anakin in combat, sometimes even surviving against the two at the same time. She was noted to be exceptionally skilled and formidable foe
Asajj Ventress had indeed once been Count Dooku’s Sith apprentice—and pet assassin. Kenobi and Anakin had crossed lightsabers with her on more than one occasion. Tall, lithe, exceptionally skilled in the Force, the former Nightsister was a formidable foe. But if anyone hated Dooku, it was her; Ventress’s former Master had tried to kill her. Rumor had it she’d attempted more than once to return the favor.
According to Ahsoka herself Ventress is too powerful for even a Master Jedi to fight by herself
"Master, all due respect, but Ventress is too powerful for any one Jedi to fight alone."
Ahsoka was also capable to beat 3 Magnaguards by herself while protecting a baby years before her duel with Pre Vizsla. Magnaguards are Count Dooku and Grievous elite force and personal guards, it is worth to note that even a couple of them are capable to give troubles to powerful opponents such season 1 Anakin which should comfortably be far above your average Jedi Knight . Note that he even was actually tag in the shoulder during this fight by one of the Magna
This is only the less impressive of Pre Vizsla feat, Pre Vizsla was also capable to put up a good fight against Obi-Wan for reference
I would also like to mention that, in this fight Vizsla fought mostly in CQC only using his jetback against Obi-Wan. In other words he wasn't using his full arsenal and he was not at his top performance, the only time in which we actually see Vizsla fighting with everything he have was against Maul.
Anyway fighting almost on par with Obi-Wan in CQC and lightsaber combat is a very impressive feat, considering this Obi-Wan was already a solid match for General Grievous. The same General Grievous which was capable to easily kill less known Jedi Masters and their Padawans as we saw in the comics. Below you would see TCW Grievous easily stomping a Jedi Master with little efforts.
All in all by scaling and feats we can already establish that Pre Vizsla was surely portayed to be well above your Jedi Knight or even the average Jedi Master for that matter, only the pride of the Jedi order (those on Obi-Wan lvl and above) are better than him in verse.
Now, adressing Vizsla most impressive feat his duel with Darth Maul . First of all it should be noted that similary to Grievous, Darth Maul was well above the average Jedi Master and in turn much stronger than a Jedi Knight. I don't even need to use accolades to prove how powerful Darth Maul was, just looking at his consistent lvl should be enough. Darth Maul can easily kick away like a fodder the Jedi Knight Aayla Secura while trading a blow with Windu at the same time.
This short pannel is not a indicator that Darth Maul is superior to Windu or anything like that. However it is an indicator that Darth Maul is so much above skilled Jedi Knights that they are not even a considerable danger to him, he was able to quickly separate her from Windu so he can focus on him who was the real danger here.
Before I use the fight below as an argument , I need to say that I agree on the whole Maul held back against Vizsla. He choose not to use the force offensively against him ( tk, ragdoll, force restrain..) because the Mandalorians while have consider this as cowardice. However it was obvious that he was not joking around in CQC , he have no reason to do so, and furthermore Vizsla performance against Obi-Wan support the idea that he can put up a good fight against Maul. During the duel with Maul Vizsla used massively his weapons and gadgets to keep up with Maul, because the later was superior in lightsaber skills obviously. However Vizsla performance was solid even then, he managed to do quite well for himself in several moment with his CQC skills alone.
In those GIF we see that Vizsla is not only capable to keep up with Maul assault but he is also capable to furiously fight back and pressure Maul on the defensive briefly. Overall this coupled with his performance against Kenobi or Ahsoka should be more than enough to establish him as superior to Ben. The only established force user Kylo ever beat in a legitimate fight was Ren, the previous leader of the Knights of Ren , and Ren is honestly not even above The Grand Inquisitor, considering he was the leader of a group which were equivalent to untrained Inquisitiors.
Ren best feat is giving trouble to a young Kylo Ren anyway, not that impressive.
You argued that Ben can pretty much just abuse the force to stomp Vizsla considering the later can't use the force. I will adress this in more details in the counters, but I think this is simply not the reality. It was established several times in Star Wars that non-force users can match or even kill Jedi and Sith by preventing them to use the force offensively, the later can be done by several mean, the most common would be pressuring the force-user with gadgets, a gun or a blaster before the later can use the force.
In the video below for example we can watch Cad Bane using his gadgets, acrobatics and his blasters to keep his Jedi opponents at bait, this preventing them to either engage him in CQC or try to use a force attack against him.
Using a superior arsenal and blasters to prevent the force-user opponent to engage in CQC or use the Force offensively is something every established non-force user fighter did in Star Wars, Jango is another example. There is no reason to think that Pre Vizsla would allow Ben to use the force against him . Ben will have a hard time searching for an opening .
Pre Vizsla similar to Jango and Cad Bane have a vast gadget and weapons arsenal which he proved to be capable to use efficiently in combat.
Overall Ben should have a very hard time dealing with Pre Vizsla arsenal and his fighting style, especially considering Pre Vizsla is a established veteran with multiple battles and duel behind his back, while Ben lack experience against established opponents and he have none against opponent similar to Pre Vizsla. He never fought the kind of adversary Vizsla will be, in the other hand Vizsla fought various force users, be it from the Jedi Order or Sith.
This should give Pre Vizsla a good advantage over Ben, Vizsla should be naturally capable to prevent Kylo from using his force abuse or at least for a moment. Allowing him to beat him with superior versatility , skills and weaponry.
Mid diffs the KOR once he gets a lightsaber:
KOR are low-lvl force users they are equivalent to non-trained Inquisitor, this is really not impressive.
The KOR beats a group of soldiers years before TROS:
Beating random soldiers is nothing noteworthy for force-users. Even a youngling can kill several elite clones by surprise.
The KOR could’ve made good stock for Inquisitors:
If they could be tamed, in other words if they had acces to proper training like Jedi or Inquisitors. But they did not. KOR are just a group of powerful galactic outlaws , they don't compare to established trained force user group. Frankly, it's debatable if Ren is even above a random Inquisitor.
Defends against 3 padawans while holding back:
Those padawans don't have any feats suggesting this is really impressive. S4 Ahsoka should be able to take on all of them decisively frankly, they have no experience and are not battle-tested and they don't hold any statements suggesting they are good fighters. Even Kylo mock them and say they don't compare a bit to a real Jedi.
It is also important to note that one of the Padawan was always holding back against Kylo and trying to talk with him instead of killing him during each of the encounters in Kylo comic.
Beats Finn while injured and conflicted:
This is a low showing for Kylo lol. Struggling to beat a STORMTROOPER when he is injured and conflicted is ridiculous , even if Finn was the very best soldier of the whole First Order this is still a low showing. If you want to compare, Grievous can stomp like a fodder Captain Rex which have arguably the best feats among the Clone army such as fighting side by side with Ahsoka during order 66 and Rex is the leader of the 501 elite and should very well above the Flint Kylo struggled to beat.
“While FN-2187 performs at the top of his combat classes, the ever-present First Order propaganda never really takes hold of his heart”(The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary).
Again how this is supposed to be impressive ? Finn was not even a battle hardened warrior at this point, he was a rookie with little experience, Ahsoka beating 3 Magnaguards while protecting a baby when she was just a rookie herself is well more impressive than Kylo feat. And Pre Vizsla was portrayed superior against a much stronger and fighting all-out Ahsoka.
His skills with a lightsaber are deadly:
Ben’s lightsaber skills are formidable:
Pre Vizsla fought against people lik Obi-Wan or Maul who have just as impressive statements about them, and unlike Kylo they have feats to back it up. Here below a statement canon about Obi-Wan Kenobi who is considered alongside Anakin as a living legend among the Jedi order.
Say what you will about the wisdom of ancient Master Yoda, or the deadly skill of grim Mace Windu, the courage of Ki-Adi-Mundi, or the subtle wiles of Shaak Ti; the greatness of all these Jedi is unquestioned, but it pales next to the legend that has grown around Kenobi and Skywalker.
Revenge of the Sith novel
TFA Kylo is stated to be able to beat ESB Luke:
The fight was under some heavy context, Luke was himself conflicted about Kylo Ren and was not in his right state of mind, not to mention that Kylo Ren got a rage-boost from Luke sneaky attack and the fact he tried to murder him, he was using a dark side amp against a conflicted Luke. This is not something Ben Kenobi will do he is much more balanced than Kylo obviously and he doesn't use anger and frustration as a weapon anymore, this is not a perormance he could replicate against Pre Vizsla who unlike Luke have no reason to hold back.
Kylo contextual performance is proved by the fact that in TLJ a much weaker Luke who cut himself from the force for years was able to humiliate Kylo with no efforts and as a force hologram lol.
Post ESB Luke was contending with the Grand Inquisitor and beat him when GI created an opening for Luke(GI’s weapon gave him an advantage over Luke since Luke never fought against a double bladed lightsaber before):
Why are you bringing up this fight here ? Not sure what do you mean by using the Grand Inquisitor "spirit" fight with Luke here. But either way as I showed above
Ben strikes down 2 KOR before they can react and later blitzes one with a force leap:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hpxUGulsl7Y
Ben dodges Rey’s attacks:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XjMVwE-d4yU
Only watch 0:56 to 1:05
Pre Vizsla will at the very least have a hard time keeping up with Kylo’s speed and could potentially be blitzed.
Pre Vizsla compare to Obi-Wan in combat speed going by his performance against him. The same Obi -Wan which can
Pre Vizsla proved to be at the very least comparable to S4 Ahsoka in speed, if not her superior. The same Ahsoka which can Slices through several super battle droids before they have time to fall apart years before her fight with Pre Vizsla. Ahsoka was also able to evade and fight 3 Magnaguards while protecting a baby in CQC
There is nothing suggesting that Ben hold the speed advantage on Vizsla, on the contrary.
If Ben force pushes Vizsla into the wall at any point during the duel, it’s game over and even if he doesn’t hit the wall it will probably give Ben enough to to strike him down anyway.
Ben freezes Poe and the blaster bolt in place, the latter being frozen for a bit before Ben leaves:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yJbMdo0NyQw
Start at 1:00
If Ben uses this, it game over for Vizsla for obvious reasons.
Ben knocks out Rey with TP:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=prn_DJNG7o0
If Ben uses this, it’s game over for Vizsla.
Why whould Ben be able to K.O Vizsla with only a force push ? And even if so, he actually need to manage to use one. Obi-Wan was not able to abuse the force against Pre Vizsla he only managed to land one force push against him during the fight, and Ahsoka was not capable to use a effective force movement against him not even once. That in mind I would doubt that Ben which much less impressive in dueling skills than Obi-Wan Kenobi or even Ahsoka for that matter, could manage to abuse the force on Vizsla. The later will most likely see it coming and defend himself before Ben use his attack as I explained above.
Counters
The Skill Of A Mandalorian:
The Gear Of A Mandalorian:
The Skill Of A Skywalker:
The Speed Of A Skywalker:
The Abilities Of A Skywalker:
Conclusion:
Vizsla only landed a kick while Ashoka landed a would be fatal blow(if he had no jetpack he would’ve been killed or become a cripple). I don’t see how he’s her clear superior.
Pre Vizsla landed a kick after a brief duel (in which he was constantly pressuring her) a kick effective enough to stun Ahsoka for several seconds and she was also out of breath after the kick, proving his effectiveness. Ahsoka was more or less constantly on the defensive and overwhelmed by Pre Vizsla during the duel . You can see that she is pretty much constantly backing down and suffering from Vizsla assaults , she was forced on the defensive even after the kick.
See video below for my point
Now I will adress the part in which you argued that Ahsoka pretty much landed what could had been a fatal blow if it was not for Pre Vizsla Jetpack, which according to you saved his life. I musts say that I disagree with this reasoning for several reasons.
Here below, the gif showing the moment we are both adressing
It was obvious that Ahsoka used her only opportunity to escape by distracting Vizsla with the destruction of his Jetpack, forcing him to take it off and therefore allowing her to run away. If Ahsoka tried to attack directly Pre Vizsla body she simply would have failed, she wasn't at range nor fast enough to reach him before he turn to face her. In other words Vizsla was clearly the superior fighter all the way during the duel, the only time in which Ahsoka actually managed to land a blow, it was a blow only efficient enough to give her time to run away. Suggesting that she willingly did not killed him despite being able to do so is simply headcanon.
Luminara was half blind for most of their duel.
This is not true. She was not "half blind" for most of the fight, she was with a weakened vision in one eye yes, but you can clearly notice as the fight play out that she recover and is actually able to actually see with both of her eyes. She even mention that her vision was "clouded" not half-bind or anything of the sort.
It is apparent that she quickly recover as the time passes during the scene, for example when Ventress and herself block each other force attack she is clearly less affected, see below
It is also worth to mention that while Luminara vision was weakened for most of the 1vs1 with Ventress , that this situation happened by Ventress doing in the first place, she clearly managed to trick Luminara and therefore briefly injure her vision in the begining of the duel .
Now, I anticipate that you will argue that Ventress injuring her in the begining of the duel ins't a solid showing because she attacked by surprise and used a sneaky feint . This is fine by me, because even if we use this logic Ventress was able to briefly hold her own against early war Ahsoka and Luminara at the same time right after that , a Luminara which had recovered at this point.
Therefore, there is no reason to suggest that Ventress wasn't at the very least comparable to Luminara skills lvl.
That statement is referring to late war Ventress. Early War Ventress was toyed with by Kenobi:
I won't disagree with this statement because Obi-Wan was obviously destroying her during the fight you are refering to. You are talking about the fight during Star Wars: The Clone Wars- Movie 2008 right ? Well, if that so, there isn't any problem with my argument because the "Early War Ventress" who fought Ahsoka and Luminara was obviously stronger than the one Obi-Wan toyed with. First there is a obvious time gap between those two fights, and second Season 1 Ventress was capable to fight both Obi-Wan and Anakin 1vs2. Now yes, she was always more or less in the losing side of that fight and she was not capable to take on them 2vs1 obviously, but she was still capable to engage them and fight them . At this point there is nothing suggesting that either of them is far beyond her.
While there is several episodes between Luminara/Ahsoka vs Ventress and Obi-Wan and Anakin vs Ventress, there is nothing suggesting that Ventress did get considerably better during those fights, this is still early war Ventress.
She did somewhat hold her own against 3 but she was clearly outmatched
She was pressured for most of the fight yes, but again she was protecting a baby
She only gained the advantage when she sneak attacked one.
This was still a legit fight and a legit victory, using the environement to her advantage is a showing of skills and battle-tactic adaptation, there is nothing wrong with that. Therefore ambushing a Magnaguard like this is a very legit feat considering they were aware of the danger, she was just more skilled and smarter.
The only reason Anakin got tagged was because he was in a bladelock with a different Magnaguard. He stomped them otherwise.
You are confusing me with your logic here. The bladelock happened due to them fighting in the first place right ? So therefore how the tag wasn't legit ? It was Anakin fault/lack of skills to not be able to break the lock in the first place. Also I would not call "stomping" what Anakin did , they were clearly able to give him some opposition and struggle even before the actual "tag"moment
See one example below
Here Anakin is pushed back and forced on the defensive by one, and then the two engage him at the same time and it seems that they are actually actively trading blows with him.
Vizsla didn’t actually disarm Kenobi. He only lost his lightsaber because of the impact of falling onto the ground. He also did it while Kenobi wasn’t on guard:
This was right before Vizsla hit Kenobi. Kenobi had his lightsaber to the side.
Wait, what are you saying here ? That Kenobi was of guard in the middle of a to-the-death duel with a insane terrorist which just killed in cold blood one of his own just before that and still cary weapons in his armor ? (the blaster he used to kill his own men in front of Obi-Wan) this doesn't make any sense. Obi-Wan have no reason to lower his guard even if Pre-Vizsla lost his weapon, he is not a rookie and he know that losing your main weapon is far from meaning that you lost the fight.
Now you are right that Vizsla didn't actually disarm Obi-Wan good point, but still his performance ins't less impressive really. He actually managed to punch Obi-Wan before the later could try to dodge or block the blow , despite Obi-Wan having the significant advantage of being armed. This is both a impressive combat speed and skills showing of Pre-Vizsla, and of course strength. Considering Vizsla managed to
No matter how you swing it, using your own screen as a reference, Pre-Vizsla still did very well. He managed to hit one of the most powerful Master Jedi in the face with a full powered punch , before he could react and try to finish the fight.
Kenobi then fodderized him with unarmed combat right after he lost his weapon. Kenobi might even be wanting to capture, rather than kill.
How Obi-Wan kicking Pre-Vizsla ass with unarmed skills is so much more impressive than Pre-Vizsla knocking him down hard enough to result in Obi-Wan losing his weapon, and without Obi-Wan being capable to react at all ? If anything while Obi-Wan won the fight because Pre-Vizsla was afraid of losing and therefore called for interference, their performances are not really much different. Especially considering that Pre-Vizsla as I said wasn't using his top arsenal during the fight, he didn't even used his blaster. He only fought in CQC with his Jetpack as a help.
Also there is nothing suggesting Obi-Wan was holding back during that fight, this is only speculation.
Grievous tagged Kenobi and Kenobi didn’t return the favor. He also forced Kenobi to resort to force abilities. Grievous was his clear superior.
Grievous had the advantage yes, but Obi-Wan performance was still impressive and even in CQC combat he did quite well for himself even when the location (confined space) favor Grievous, for example here Obi-Wan was capable to defend himself and evade him despite Grievous forcing him into a confined space with his superior strength and size.
It is also worth to mention that while Obi-Wan used his force abilities to finish the fight with Grievous, Grievous was the one who "cheated" in the first place, he was actually trying to kill him while using the help of his Magnaguard and waiting for a opening to strike down Obi-Wan while he was busy fighting the Magnaguards.
1:00-1:15 We actually see that Grievous try to kill Obi-Wan with the help of a Magnaguard and fail, and is looking for a opening during the rest of the fight with Obi-Wan and his Magnaguard after that. I agree that at this point at least, Grievous was Obi-Wan superior in CQC but the gap ins't really massive. Therefore despite Grievous indeed being Obi-Wan clear superior in CQC in most of The Clone Wars, Obi-Wan was still capable to keep up with him and give him good fights in the matter, without using the force.
Grievous only stomped that featless Jedi master by stabbing her while she was stuck in a bladelock(he never attempted that against Kenobi). I’m guessing your counter is going to be that he didn’t use it against Obi-wan because he was too skilled for that. Well that’s not the case:
She might be a featless Jedi, but she is still a master. Therefore her lvl of abilities are already far above almost everyone Kylo Ren/Ben Solo fought according to the feats you used. Master is the lvl above Knight by default bare exceptions and special cases. Therefore she is already far above those untrained force-users that the KOR are or any of the opponents Ben Solo/Kylo Ren killed for that matter. Before Savage was send by Count Dooku to kill them, a random Master and his Padawan were capable to defend with a bith of help a position against much larger Separatist forces. This is why Dooku dispatch Savage to kill them in the first place, because they were holding the position pretty much by themselves.
I also showed you that a kid (Youngling or just-padawan whatever) killed several 501 clone soldiers (granted most with the element of using a surprise attack) however, either way it is clear that even a random and even featless Jedi Master should scale far above most of Ben solo opponents, but I will adress this in further details later.
You argued that the only reason Grievous stomped the Jedi Master was pretty much because he surprised her with a sneaky move she did not expected. But I can't say I agree even a bit with this reasoning, Grievous was the leader of the CIS forces and was already a established and renowed Jedi Killer who fought and killed multiples Jedi at this point, his abilities and fighting style was obviously well reported and known by the Jedi order. This is the reason why the Master order the Padawan to run away in the first place, because she know that Grievous is simply well above his lvl, therefore the argument that he surprised her with that move if that was your point, doesn't work.
Grievous engaging a bladelock with her and using this moment to sneak in her guard and kill her is a complete and obvious legit skill showing resulting in a victory, he simply used his fighting style better than she did.
At 5:36, Grievous does a similar tactic against Kenobi which follows the same strategy as what he did to that Jedi Master. He does a similar tactic against Kenobi at 7:46 but with his leg. At 9:05, he does the same thing he did at 5:36.
This logic doesn't work while those two moves share similarities they are vastly and clearly different in several important points.
Here several example of people using kicks/body movements to take the uper hand, tag their opponents during fights in Star Wars, including during bladelocks.
See Below
The Grand Inquisitor use several acrobatic kicks to take the advantage
Kanan land a powerful kick to the Grand Inquitor
Savage Opress land a knee in the chest to a Jedi Knight
Ventress use her body to break Anakin advantage and the bladelock
I can honestly give 3 dozens of example in canon on how much easier it is to land punch and kick and overall using your body as a weapon during a lightsaber fight compared to actually tag the opponent with the lightsaber directly. Grievous have several advantages which make those kind of moves much easier and efficient for him to use (his morphology which give him claws to grapple, his ridiculous size and height)
Anyway, I think I made my point.
It’s a pretty decent skill showing but not a good showing overall. Maul had the advantage for majority of the fight and Vizsla couldn’t even beat him after using all of his tricks.
I disagree, it is a good showing overall because even a Maul not using TK is ridiculously strong. Even at this point Pre-SoD Maul was a very powerful duelist, for example we know that during S4 and at least the early S5 it was suggested that he was considerably weakened after being cut from the force and driven into madness for several years , even some writers support this point directly
Despite this, in the first serious fight Darth Maul was in with Obi-Wan in TCW S4 which was literally RIGHT AFTER Maul return, he was actually winning and having the advantage . Obi-Wan even concede that the brothers are too much for him and Ventress. 2:40, See video below
Note on how Maul doesn't use the force offensively at all during this fight, he did exactly the same thing he did against Pre Vizsla , using only the force to amp his speed, reflexes, force -jump and so on. It is not like he was even capable to use the Force offensively in the first place, considering we know that the forced exile weakened him considerably and he obviously needed time to recover.
Darth Maul is capable after that in early S5 to actually pressure and give troubles to Obi-Wan during their fight until the later get the focus amp thanks to Adi Gallia death emotional impact and manage to fight both of the brothers, however it is worth to mention that Obi-Wan performance was considerably due to the confined location giving his defensive fighting style an advantage, and therefore restraining the brothers movement, he was also focusing Savage forcing Maul to protect him .
Sources
"When you get to this episode Obi-Wan is much more focused and ready. Not only that but when Adi Gallia dies he gains even more focus and has to kind of right that wrong." - Dave Filoni
"The two Sith maneuvered to pin Obi-Wan against the wall - but there was so little room in the corridor that they got in each other's way." - Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy.
Also this Maul feat seems like an outlier considering he was beat by Ahsoka and was clearly inferior to a Early or Mid war Kenobi.
How was Mid War Kenobi clearly Superior to Maul ? Before Obi-Wan had his amp thanks to Adi Gallia death Obi-Wan was clearly pressured and struggling against Maul, there is nothing suggesting his superiority , at best they are comparable. Not to mention as I just said, focused Obi-Wan performance was also due to a significant location advantage.
Anyway, Pre-Vizsla fought a Darth Maul in late S5, a Darth Maul who was with much more experience and who wasn't heavily rusty by his years of exile cut from a proper connection with the force. Also the fight happened a bit before SoD arc in which Maul was at one of his strongest version. Therefore he fought a version of Darth Maul which was actually clearly beyond Early War Kenobi (the same Pre Vizsla fought in S2) and he did very well despite Maul not using offensively the force, as I showed above regardless of that fact, giving a challenging fight to a late S5 Darth Maul and actually offering him a good fight blade against blade is very impressive.
Either way there is nothing contradicting that Maul by the point of SoD did get considerably better than his S4/early S5 self, which was heavily rusty and recovering from his exile as I proved. Likewise he also likely got better than his overall S5 lvl in SoD , but even that don't matter much because his S5 scaling is good enough to make Pre Vizsla well above Ben Solo in dueling anyway.
In other words, no matter how you swing it, Maul scaling give a very solid argument for Vizsla dueling skills lvl.
It’s not referring to training, It’s most likely just referring to not being directly controlled by the First Order.
I disagree, it is most likely heavily referring to training, using your own scan as a reference the word "tamed" can be used to directly refer training/domesticate/master something or someone
Furthermore we have directly canon sources suggesting that the Knight of Ren lack training.
Actually thanks indirectly to @frozen for this one, I found it looking at some debate adressing Kylo feat against the Knights lol.
Cad Bane did it by keeping his distance and abusing gear if the Jedi managed to catch up. Vizsla did abuse gear but then went right back to fighting Maul in close quarters with only his darksaber.
Because unlike Cad Bane, Vizsla is actually extremely competent in CQC and seems to prefer dueling over distance combat, but that doesn't mean he is incompetent at fighting and keeping his opponents at range, we actually see in the scene in which himself Maul and Savage fight a bunch of top-tier bounty hunters that he is very competent at using his gear in combat . The fact that he choose to use both CQC skills and gear advantage equally against Maul and managed to use both effectively against him is a good showing, not a low showing. This mean that he is a very versatile fighter capable to use his full arsenal and switch to whatever is required to win or defend himself.
Since Maul was only using passive powers he wouldn’t be able to do anything BUT defend against Vizsla‘s ranged attacks.
Maul was using force-jump, force-amp, precogn and every other force-based advantages against Vizsla, and we actually see him more than once using them to negate Pre-Vizsla arsenal and gear advantage, here for example. So no saying "he couldn't do anything but defend " his wrong, he had options to actually counter or overwhelm Pre Vizsla before he could abuse his gear, Vizsla was simply fast enough, and skilled enough to pressure him.
Ben will have a hard time but the only thing that Vizsla will accomplish is delaying the inevitable and giving Ben more incentive to use force abilities.
I can't agree with this, Ben simply lack the feats and don't have the experience to do that, he will most likely get overwhelm by Pre Vizsla arsenal coupled with his CQC and dueling skills before he could abuse the force to win.
I’m pretty sure he’s a padawan but I can’t really confirm that
If he is indeed a padawan he is a very young one, and therefore this doesn't change much anyway.
Like you said, the Jedi had surprise on his side
Yes, but he still killed Clones AFTER the element of suprise was gone as you can see in the video.
The Jedi only took a couple down before he was overwhelmed while the KOR actually beat the soldiers
According to Ren himself in the very own scan you used in your opening those soldiers are "sector security" , in fact they are not even actual soldiers they are more like cops or a defensive millitia.
I don't think they compare even a bit with literally the Elite of the Clone Army.
The Jedi had a much better weapon for engaging blaster wielders
This is only a much better weapon if you know how to use it, Jango Fett and Cad Bane proved to be capable of fighting and killing Jedi with blasters alone lol, so this doesn't mean much.
A Master was overwhelmed by similar numbers to the one that Jedi faced
This is not at all comparable, reasons below
Except they do compare according to the quote.
They really don't, I think I proved as much above.
Vizsla was clearly inferior to both Maul and Obi-wan. Besides, I was just using those statements to show that he was intended to be skilled.
Going by how Prime-Vizsla (meaning as S5 and with all his arsenal) perfomed against a holding back Darth Maul which was superior to Early War Kenobi in every way , I would argue that Prime Vizsla have a real chance to kill early War Kenobi, considering a "weaker version" so to speak of himself already put up a good fight against him.
You’re confusing me here, I showed a screenshot from Head To Head that stated TFA Kylo could beat ESB Luke and you’re countering by saying his fight with Luke in TLJ doesn’t prove anything.
Yeah, my apologies. I misunderstood some stuff in your post and I rushed this specific part of my opening, I am all to blame for that mistake.
However, even if we do admit that Kylo could beat ESB Luke, how does that prove anything ? First of the source you are refering to mention that Kylo would be suffering from injuries as result of such fight, suggesting that it is a high-diff win. Second of all the source mention that "Kylo's Anger overpowers the Young Jedi" Suggesting heavily that Kylo used a rage/anger amp to overpower his opponent which was his superior before that . No matter how you swing it here, this won't work. Ben Solo is much more balanced than Kylo Ren and there is nothing suggesting that he would use anger/hate or any emotions related usually to the Dark Side fighting style.
Post ESB Luke being able to beat the Grand Inquisitor and ESB Luke doing "decently" against a toying around and HEAVILY holding back Vader is not at all enough to favor Ben Solo here anyway. I mean literally as soon as Vader get seriousdue to Luke barely taging him, he immediatly cut his hand off and end the fight. The gap in lvl between those two at this point was absurdly massive, therefore using his "feat" of taging a toyind around and heavily holding back Vader to support your claims don't make sense to me.
The Grand Inquisitor best feat was kicking season 1 Kanan ass (which was not even a proper Knight lvl at this point, he had little experience and didn't even finished his training ) and being superior to the other Inquisitors by scaling, which should place him somewhere around Knight lvl or maybe featless Master but clearly below any fighter in the Jedi council .
Anyway, I’m going to quickly explain why beating the KOR is a good feat. Inquisitors are padawans level but an average Knight level character would immensely struggle with 6 padawans. Kylo stomped the KOR. This shows he’s vastly above average.
I wouldn't call it a stomp, he showed clear signs of efforts during a moment in the fight 1:57 and he still had to trade several blows with them for a brief moment before taking the decisive advantage and killing them one by one. But even if I do apply your logic, nothing change. Pre-Vizsla considering the scaling and feats I just used above is himself several step above the average Jedi master with dueling skills alone, he pretty could stomp them in 1vs1 ,he would just take more time than Grievous.
He doesn’t scale to late war Kenobi so this second feat isn’t applicable
I could easily prove how this feat is legit to use as a scaling but either way I don't need that, see below.
Ahsoka was jumping around him the whole fight. Don’t see how he has superior speed.
She is more agile than him, not faster. As I showed above she was constantly on the defensive and backing down and Vizsla landed his kick quite quickly on the begining of the fight. If he isn't faster he is at the very least of comparable combat speed with S4 Ahsoka which in turn scale far above S1 Ahsoka who was fighting 3 Magnaguards at the same time while protecting a baby. The same Magnaguards which can give troubles to Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Carrying a baby isn’t going to make a force user with augmentation slower.
You can clearly notice that she need to choose her moves and actions very carefuly to not put the baby in danger or prevent him to be taged by one of the Magnaguards in the fight, so she is obviously fighting slower than usual considering she can't risk to use her standard movements and fighting style without killing the baby by accident.
That KOR member can amp his reflexes and speed with the force, has pre cog, and had a decent distance for him to be able to react to Ben, yet he was still blitzed. Maybe his combat speed won‘t be good enough to blitz but his force leap definitely will.
That simply won't happen. As I proved above (and you yourself stated that they are padawan lvl anyway lol) the KOR are several tier below a featless or random Master Jedi. Therefore Pre Vizsla scaling to late S5 Darth Maul dueling speed which in turn is above Early War Obi-Wan which in turn is obviously far above any random Master should suffice. Being capable to blitz a untrained and very weak force user (Padawan lvl according to you) is not applicable in any way against someone who is comparable or at least can keep up with established Jedi Council member in speed.
Pre Vizsla should be capable to react very easily against such kind of move, as a matter of fact he would probably cut Ben Solo in half if he try something like that.
I said Ben if force pushed him into a wall he would be KOed. Obi-wan doesn’t abuse the Force in fights and Ahsoka is less skilled than Ben at that point via scaling to ESB Luke and probably his feat against the KOR. Kylo has used Freeze while his opponent was mid swing so I don’t think Vizsla will get a chance to defend himself.
I already adressed why the scaling to ESB Luke doesn't work well.
Ben was not capable to abuse the force against the KOR , he only used one move once he got his lightsaber and he had to create an opening for it. Mind you that was against a bunch of opponents Vizsla would destroy just as easily as Ben did with the lightsaber, if not more so. All of Kylo feats with the force in combat are against
Here’s the feat: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t4XfJUK4oIE. Unlike Rey who can resist force freeze, Pre Vizsla will be an easy kill after this. Ben was able to turn around and freeze a blast bolt+poe while the bolt only got halfway to him so if Vizsla keeps too much distance, he’s getting frozen.
This is a good reaction speed feat but nothing impressive for Pre Vizsla by scaling. Darth Maul, Savage Opress and Pre-Vizsla himself were capable to fight a large number of opponents shooting at them from various sides including some of the best bounty-hunters of the galaxy ,and they were not at all either tag by their blaster-bolts or overwhelmed by them and were capable to dodge/pary (or outdraw in the case of Pre Vizsla) their opponents. I already mentionned some feats of this fight scene in the CaV
The fight start at 0:45 video below.
Also, You didn't brought up any counter to young-Ahsoka speed feat against the Super battle-droids, therefore I asumme that you dont hae anove. Either way going by all that scaling and feats I am confident to say that Pre Vizsla should by default have a clear advantage over Ben Solo in the speed matter anyway.
Final Counters
The Mandalorian’s Martial Might:
The Death Watch Leader’s Equipment And Tactics:
The Jedi Killer’s Dueling Ability And Speed:
The Heir Of Vader’s Abilities:
My Final Conclusion:
Sorry for missing images and videos but I had to copy this into notes app and paste it from there because it wouldn’t let me post the original version. If I forgot to put relevant images on there then please make to sure to tell me.
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