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#1 Edited by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

Power Pack (represented by Owie)
Power Pack (represented by Owie)
No Caption Provided

Wizard (represented by jloneblackheart)
Wizard (represented by jloneblackheart)

Scenario

Fed up with the repeated failings of his Frightful Four, the Wizard decides to take out the Fantastic Four on his own! He flies to the Baxter Building and disables the security system. As he is about to make his grand entrance, he stumbles on the Power Pack who are arriving to visit their good friend Franklin Richards. Infuriated by yet another wrench thrown in his plans, the Wizard attacks! Without security alerting the FF, the Power Pack stand alone together to defend their friend as well as themselves!

  • Power Pack is 616 through the Holiday Special
  • Wizard is 616 with anti-grav platform and standard equipment
  • In character with morals on, but determined to win
  • Winner by KO, Incapacitation or Unable to Continue
  • Random encounter with no prior knowledge
  • Battle begins outside the Baxter Building, New York City
  • Franklin Richards and the Fantastic Four are not involved in the fight

Voting

  • This is a CaV (Challenge a Viner) and debating should be between Owie and jloneblackheart only
  • Please keep your opinions to yourself until closed for voting
  • You can ask to be tagged for votes
  • Vote for who you think was the better debater, not who you think would win the fight
  • Reasoning for votes and constructive feedback are encouraged
  • Thanks for reading!

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#2 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie Let me know if you want any changes. I can have an opener up in the next couple of days. It doesn't matter to me who goes first.

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#3 Posted by SMXLR8 (6520 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#4 Posted by High_Noon (690 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#5 Posted by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie Let me know if you want any changes. I can have an opener up in the next couple of days. It doesn't matter to me who goes first.

That looks fine. To be clear, the battle takes place outside the Baxter Building, is that right? Also, just so everyone knows, while the Pack went to visit Franklin, he is not part of this battle, even in his Tattletale version at the time.

I can have an opener up tonight. Shall we go with just a basic intro, or also add in strategy?

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#6 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: I was thinking today to add no Franklin just in case it wasn't clear to voters. Yes, outside the Baxter Building, so essentially, New York City.

I was going to post only the most basic of strategy had I gone first since there is no prior knowledge for the characters, plus I know very little about the Power Pack anyway.

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#7 Posted by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: I was thinking today to add no Franklin just in case it wasn't clear to voters. Yes, outside the Baxter Building, so essentially, New York City.

I was going to post only the most basic of strategy had I gone first since there is no prior knowledge for the characters, plus I know very little about the Power Pack anyway.

OK, I had the same thing in mind--a basic run down, plus a very simple strategy. Then we can get more in depth once we both know more about the other characters. I'll have a post up in a few hours.

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#8 Edited by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart

WHO IS POWER PACK?

Power Pack is a group of four children, each of whom has a power based on a fundamental aspects of reality—gravity, mass, energy, and acceleration.

They gained their powers from an alien Kymellian sorcerer, who had similar powers (one, two, three, four). When he died, he split his powers up among them.

At the time I’m using them, Power Pack are about 6, 9, 11, and 13 years old, but they have plenty of experience and a tight-knit bond, as well as a shared history of strategies that allows them a high degree of synergy in their fights.

Just because they’re kids doesn’t mean they only fight other kids, or that they don’t know what it means to take on a real villain. In fact, they have fought plenty of scary, serious, deadly opponents, including Hobgoblin, Typhoid Mary, the demons of Limbo, Plague (the Horsemen of Apocalypse), the Marauders, Sabretooth, Nova (the Herald of Galactus), and Kurse.

Sometimes they've won these battles, sometimes they've gone unresolved, but they've been face to face with death many times. They were in the Morlock Tunnels during the bloody Mutant Massacre, where they found their Morlock friends’ murdered bodies. So they will not be intimidated by the Wizard.

Look out!
Look out!

A NOTE ON THIS VERSION OF POWER PACK

I will be using Power Pack at the point of the Holiday Special, which capped off the end of their first volume in the 80s. When they first got their powers, Alex had gravity powers, Julie had flight, Jack had density control, and Katie had energy powers. Over the course of the series, they switched their powers between them multiple times, and over that time they each leaned new ways to use those powers.

By the Holiday Special, they all ended back up with the powers they first started with—but now with the knowledge and experience to use their powers the way their brothers and sisters did while they were switching their powers around. Here are a couple examples showing them learning from a previous sibling’s experience: Alex learns to make force bubbles like Julie previously had, and Katie learns to make a super-G punch like Jack used to do.

So, while I am using them with their original allocation of powers (Alex gravity, Julie flight, Jack density, Katie energy), I will sometimes show scans of one of the other kids using that power, because by the point of the Holiday Special, the original/current users of the powers would now know how to use them that way too.

(This concept is borne out in their few appearances since the series ended. Now that they are getting into their teens, the kids have not only used their powers in the advanced ways their siblings did, they have continued to learn new ways to use them, with Julie teleporting and Alex being able to gravitize objects from a distance instead of by touch, for instance. But I am only going to use their powers they way they did up through the Holiday Special.)

INTRODUCTION TO THEIR POWERS

(Note: I’ll primarily use links instead of filling the space with images in-line. Readers, please do check out the links!)

I'm going to go into detail here since they're not very well known these days.

Alex Power, or Gee

Alex has the ability to increase and decrease gravity in things that he touches. He can de-gravitize enormous objects for a long time, as seen in this example with a very large ship that he de-gravitizes for hours.

He can fly by using wings on his costume and attracting and repulsing himself from the ground to create motion.

He can also increase his gravitational pull, sticking himself or other things (here, Jack is going to stick a Snark to the floor) to the ground.

His brother Jack, when using this power, also innovated the super-G punch, where he punches or lands on someone with a massive additional G-force. For instance, here he knocks out the super-durable brick Arclight. Here he punches a guy with invulnerability and stand-your-ground powers.

Alex, master of gravity!
Alex, master of gravity!

Julie Power, or Lightspeed

Julie can fly at great speeds, although not actual lightspeed. She is often described or shown as flying fast enough to be a blur (one, two, three, four). She can fly at least the speed of sound, however. Numerous times (one, two) she starts off way above someone who starts falling and she has to fly down to catch them, which would require a lot of speed. Here Katie with the flight powers flies out of the way of Sabretooth's quick reflexes. Here she blitzes fast enough to grab a gun out of a guy's hand. Here she flies onto a building that is already collapsing and pulls a guy off of it.

She can use this to ram or punch people at high speeds (one, two, three), although she is not “nigh invulnerable while blastin’” like their friend Cannonball.

Julie tends to act as a distraction or transportation for the others.

Yoink!
Yoink!

Jack Power, or Mass Master

Jack has the power to control his density, spreading his atoms out like a cloud, or packing them together tightly so that he shrinks.

He often uses the “Jack Hammer,” in which he turns super-dense (but still weighs the same) and hits people in the head (one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine).

In his dense form, he is highly durable. Here is he hit by a baseball hit by the best home run hitter in the league, which would have a tremendous amount of force, and he is fine. Here Julie uses the power and not only breaks Arclight's hand when she is hit by her, she breaks a hole in the brick wall and is fine.

He can fly at high speeds while in gas form, often matching Lightspeed even when they are in a hurry.

Jack can also create density shields, in which he basically turns the air into a super-dense force-field-like barrier; this often takes the shape of many small spheres, like bubbles. This is also a good example of him matching Lightspeed's speed. (More bubbles: one, two)

He can also turn into water or into a taller version of himself that can switch back and forth in tangibility.

Jack Attack!
Jack Attack!

Katie Power, or Energizer

Katie is an energy battery. She can disintegrate objects by touch to power herself up; she does this very quickly and seemingly to almost any material. Here Alex uses it to disintegrate almost the entire giant Master Mold Sentinel directly by hand.

Once energized, she can release the energy in “power balls,” which explode with destructive force (one, two, three). Here, Alex uses it to destroy half the antenna of the Empire State Building.

Katie can absorb and release an enormous amount of energy, as she did when she absorbed all the energy out of both Thor and Beta Ray Bill’s hammers, rendering them inert, and then used that energy in a gigantic power blast to knock out Kurse, a massively durable being.

Another example is that the demons of Limbo wanted to use her as an energy conduit to open a gate from Earth to Limbo; consider the massive amount of energy this would take. When she was finally released, the Power Ball she created from all the pent-up energy made an explosion that was visible across the Manhattan skyline.

As a five-year-old, she is hesitant to use her full destructive power on living beings, but over time they have learned many alternate ways to make Power Balls, including numerous simultaneous balls (one, two), ricocheting balls, and so on. She also has enough control to use it to disarm.

In addition to absorbing matter, she can also absorb energy in all forms, from electricity to fire to laser blasts to the Marauder Harpoon’s energy harpoons to even Cannonball's energy field.

If Katie ever grows up, the Marvel Universe better watch out!
If Katie ever grows up, the Marvel Universe better watch out!

Travel

They often all fly together as a group, with Jack flying on his own in gas form, and Julie carrying Alex, who carries a de-gravitized Katie. However, they can also fly in other groupings; Julie can carry a normal-weight Katie on her own; or Alex can fly with his wings while carrying a de-gravitized Katie.

They have a few further options for their powers as well, I’ll go into them more as we continue.

BASIC STRATEGY

I’ll go into more detail after hearing about Wizard, but here’s their general strategy:

Jack will turn into a cloud, which will allow him to ignore any energy blast attacks (one, two, three). He will swirl around his face, making it very foggy and hard to see.

He will occasionally switch into his “Jack Hammer” mode and jump down hard on the Wizard’s head, trying to knock him out, as well as his hands, to throw off his aim. He can switch back and forth very quickly between these forms, it is pretty split-second (here Julie uses it while a guy quickly grabs at her, and in thesetwo, s/he switches back and forth from gas to hammer to gas). As Jack Hammer, he can land with a decent amount of force (he weighs 60 pounds, and lands at a decent speed), and knocks people out all the time (see scans above). Wizard has a helmet, so I’m sure he won’t knock him out the first time, but over time it will add up.

He can also use his force bubbles to help protect the others.

Julie, Alex, and Katie will probably switch up tactics throughout the fight. Lightspeed will probably fly around Wizard very quickly with Alex and Katie (both de-gravitized, so no additional weight) to confuse him; her flight trails can be very distracting when done all around someone, particularly in combination with Jack’s fog (one, two, three, four). I expect she is faster and more maneuverable than Wizard.

By flying Katie around with them, they can use Katie to intercept and absorb any energy blasts the Wizard shoots at them, which she can then shoot right back in addition to anything she has absorbed on her own. Katie can also grab on to Wizard and disintegrate his armor directly—this takes almost no time at all, and she could quickly destroy his most important weaponry, like his gloves and helmet, without hurting him (here is an example of Alex disintegrating only a thin layer of water without destroying the tiles below). Katie can also potentially absorb his force field directly, as Alex did to Cannonball's force field.

Alex may continue flying with Julie and Katie, or he may have Katie fly him up to Wizard so he can hit him with his super-G punch or kicks; they sometimes use Lightspeed’s acceleration to add to this effect. He may also lift stuff like cars and throw them at Wizard. He may also grab on to Wizard and super-gravitize him so he ends up flat on the ground, unable to move, as Jack was going to do to this Snark.

I'll deal with defense after seeing your post.

Strategy Summary

All in all, they will use a strategy of distraction (Jack as fog and Julie’s ribbons of light); physical attacks (Jack Hammer and Alex’s super-G slams); Katie’s energy absorption, possible direct disintegration of his armor, and massive blasts; plus super-gravitization and bubble-shields as the cherry on top.

Based on what I know of the Wizard at the moment, the Pack will beat the Wizard because:

• they can take advantage of their numbers, attacking and defending from multiple directions at once

• their powers are at a higher level than the Wizard’s similar powers—Alex’s gravity powers are stronger, Julie is a more maneuverable flier, and Katie’s blast power is stronger.

• their offensive powers, especially Katie's, should penetrate the Wizard's defenses, and they should be able to avoid being dropped by his offensive powers (as I will describe later)

It will be a close battle, but the Pack will take it.

However, I could be wrong about the extent of his powers and look forward to hearing about the Wizard!

Power Pack--Attack!
Power Pack--Attack!

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#9 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: This is going to be so much more awesome than I thought.

I'm try to post tonight. Question, should I just post a similar opener or add a counter? I notice a lot of CaVs use a counter in the second post, but that always seemed a little unfair to me (since first poster always gets one less counter).

I was thinking I just post my opener and basic strategy and then we work on our counters. I can counter in my post if you don't care but it's going to be quite lengthy.

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#10 Posted by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: This is going to be so much more awesome than I thought.

I'm try to post tonight. Question, should I just post a similar opener or add a counter? I notice a lot of CaVs use a counter in the second post, but that always seemed a little unfair to me (since first poster always gets one less counter).

I was thinking I just post my opener and basic strategy and then we work on our counters. I can counter in my post if you don't care but it's going to be quite lengthy.

I like that idea of just doing the same as me, and then we start to counter. Yeah, I'm definitely enjoying this.

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#11 Edited by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

The Wingless Wizard

No Caption Provided

Introduction

A brilliant scientific mind, Bentley Wittman became a successful inventor and famous magician, escape artist and chess player. Once the Fantastic Four came on the scene though, his limelight fell to their super heroics. Feeling overshadowed, he created a Human Torch suit to frame the real Torch and from there his obsession with revenge and proving to the world that he was Reed Richards’ superior in intellect only grew over time. He would form many incarnations of his own Frightful Four specifically to defeat the Fantastic Four and claim the fame and attention he once had for his own. While usually defeating his enemies he would only fail time and again due to his arrogance and hubris as well as never actually having a solid team of his own.

Powers & Equipment

Wizard’s Armor

  • On-Command Assembly
  • Enhanced Durability
  • Anti-gravity Boots
  • Super Speed
  • Force Field

Wizard’s Helmet

  • Infrared Vision
  • Shields Wizard’s Brainwaves
  • Illusion Tech
  • Hypnosis/Mind Control

Wonder Gloves

  • Gravity Manipulation
  • Super Strength
  • Energy and Laser Blasts
  • Electric and Electroconvulsive Shocks
  • Energy Lasso
  • Neural Disruptor
  • Non-Causality Pockets
  • Kinetic Stabilizers
  • Temporal Loops

Weapons

  • Anti-gravity Disks
  • Assault Disks
  • Pain Gun

Basic Strategy

I’ll do my best to pretend I didn’t read your strategy and post how I think Wizard would initiate.

Offense

Assault & Anti-Gravity Disks

The Wizard’s initial go-to is to send out a flurry of assault disks. He carries plenty on his person and has more on his mobile platform. The assault disks are pre-programmed and can be controlled mentally via Wizard’s helmet. While this may not take any of your team out initially, they provide an excellent distraction and can occupy a team as shown against the Thunderbolts (Avengers/Thunderbolts #3)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Once preoccupied, the Wizard can employ his electric assault disks and his anti-gravity disks. The Wizard uses Trapster’s super strong paste to attach them to his enemies. The electric disks are capable of incapacitating Iron Man (in Doom’s armor) even through his force field (Fantastic Four Vol. 3 #29).

No Caption Provided

The Anti-gravity disks are an excellent way for Wizard to dispose of his enemies to focus on other tasks, in this case multiple teammates. He’s been known to throw single or multiple disks with great accuracy, hitting targets like Mr. Fantastic and Spider-Man. He’s also been known to stick them on in close quarters. They are powerful enough to lift a vehicle and spin it rapidly and can be commanded to fly his opponents to space.

  • Scan 1) Multiple Assault Disks (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #516)
  • Scan 2) Tags Spider-Man (Spectacular Spider-Man Vol. 1 #42)
  • Scan 3) Lifts and spins an army jeep (Spectacular Spider-Man Vol. 1 #42)
  • Scan 4) Bang! Zoom! To the Moon! (Fantastic Four Vol. 3 #29)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Intelligence

It should be noted that the Wizard is indeed a multi-disciplinary super-genius. He himself created all of his own tech and even interdimensional rifts. He has repeatedly bypassed Mr. Fantastic’s security devices and equipment, escaped multiple prisons including the Vault and Bruce Banner’s holding cell, hacked the most up-to-date Starktech, developed weapons to disable Spider-Man’s Spider Sense and has reprogrammed Dragon Man as well as even the Punisher Robot, which is Galactus tech.

I mention this because the Wizard is also well versed in superhuman genetics, having repeatedly reconstituted, enhanced and even cloned Klaw and enhanced the powers of both Sandman and Hydro-Man. While being caught off guard initially by the Power Pack’s abilities, he will figure out quickly what their powers are and how to best combat them. Especially considering their powers are basic principles of physics.

Defense

Provided any of the Power Pack can get to him, the Wizard is not defenseless at close range. While I will go into his additional offensive weaponry later, he is capable of releasing energy in all directions. (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #610)

No Caption Provided

Force Field

Wizard also has a formidable force field.

  • Scan 1-2) vs Human Torch (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #78)
  • Scan 3-4) vs Volcana (Marvel Comics Presents Vol. 1 #88)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

With A Touch

If any get too close, the Wizard has answers. He’s used to getting up close and personal with Mr. Fantastic. In fact, he often counts on it. Aside from placing a anti-gravity disk on those in grappling range, he has a few other tricks up his sleeve.

  • Scan 1) Intensified Volt Blasts (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #78)
  • Scan 2-3) Electroconvulsive shocks initiate seizures (Hulk Vol. 2 #19)
  • Scan 4) Neural Disruptor (should take out any of your team) (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #548)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

He has a few other nastier options I will save for later that I think he would use in a more dire situation.

Durability

And when it comes down to it, the Wizard has incredibly durability. He’s taken shots from some real heavy hitters.

  • Scan 1) Thrown through brick wall (note Wizard's words against an unknown opponent) (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #81)
  • Scan 2-3) vs Wonder Man (Avengers Vol. 1 #313)
  • Scan 4-5) Takes punches from Thing through metal and brick walls (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #301)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Strategy Summary

On the initial attack, the Wizard will be able to divide your forces greatly, with only one or possibly two members making it to him (Jack and Julie). Jack would be the only true threat and Wizard can handle his hits. If he’s tangible, Wizard can take him out in a single attack.

Once the Wizard takes a hit, however, is when he will start getting angry and really showing his power.

Based on what I’ve seen so far, the Wizard will defeat the Power Pack because:

  • You can’t distract the king of distraction.
  • The Wizard’s gravity powers are more versatile than Alex’s and so far, exceed them.
  • The Wizard is faster and more maneuverable than you think. While Julie could potentially match or exceed him in these aspects, she can’t compete in strength and durability. Any of his attacks spell trouble for her.
  • The Wizard has quite a few other trump cards to use in this battle that the Pack will have a very hard time dealing with.

I shall tackle these points on my next post as they come up.

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#12 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: Post is up. I look forward to the continuing battle!

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#13 Posted by americanspeeddemon (6939 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#14 Edited by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: Post is up. I look forward to the continuing battle!

Excellent! I'll have a response up in a couple days. I guess I will post my defensive strategy, and a general counter?

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#15 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: Counter anything and everything you would like. Then I'll counter that and whatever you don't reiterate from your first post. Since I didn't officially counter, there's a few good points in your strategy I will need to address, because to ignore them would be quite the glaring omission on my part.

Then we'll just keep doing that until we're both satisfied or run out of things to say.

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#16 Edited by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart

I’m going to start with a more complete picture of Power Pack’s strategy, including their defense, now that I know a little more about what the Wizard is going to do. Excuse any scan repetitions, I am repeating them for ease of reference. And this is long, sorry.

To sum up Wizard’s attacks, it seems like he’ll shoot out a bunch of disks, including the anti-gravity disks he’s most famous for, and possibly some electric shock disks. He’d follow up with energy blasts, possibly an omnidirectional blast. He’d defend himself with his force field and his suit’s general blunt force durability.

Power Pack will use the following strategies against this. The good thing for them is, they have multiple ways to win. It’s just a question of what opportunities present themselves first.

As I described above, they have multiple ways to travel. Mass Master will be on his own. Julie may be on her own, or she can carry Katie and Alex together (they will be weightless, allowing her to fly at full speed and maneuverability), or she can carry either one separately. I expect that during the battle, they will switch up Julie’s flying partners multiple times, as tends to be the case during fights in the comics.

Here’s how each option would go, utilizing powers I hadn’t fully expanded on before, especially Jack’s.

Jack Contains Multitudes

Jack will primarily be in fog form, where he can fog up the Wizard’s eyes, as he does to opponents all the time. The Wizard has a force field—but it must allow gas to pass through so he can breathe, and Jack’s expanded form acts just like gas. Jack will be able to permeate the force field in gas form and surround his head, blinding him. This will be a big help, since the others will be attacking from multiple directions, and the Wizard will not be able to react to them sufficiently.

He also has two other options. One, he can Jack Hammer the Wizard. You mentioned that the Wizard can blast him while he does this—but I’ve already shown that Jack can switch from gas to Hammer and back again almost instantaneously (some more examples here: one, two, three), so I really doubt that Wizard will have the chance to shoot him, especially since Wizard will also be reacting to what the rest of the Pack is doing. Also, Jack can be very small in Hammer form (the size of a quarter, here), it will be hard for the Wizard to even see him, let alone target him. So I don’t think Wizard will be able to shoot Jack while he’s Hammering.

But there’s the matter of Wizard’s blunt force durability—how can Jack actually hurt him out with a Hammer blow? There are two answers to this. One, Jack can attack Wizard’s limbs, ruining his aim when he’s trying to blast the rest of the Pack. Two, he can attack him right in the face. The Wizard’s armor has changed over the years, but one thing always stays the same—his lower face (at least) is always uncovered. Once Jack is inside the field, he can just Jack Hammer him with sixty pounds of weight right in the face, where he has no added durability, and knock him right the heck out (as he knocks out this alligator).

Finally, he can go for the Wizard’s technology. As a gas, he can permeate the insides of Wizard’s helmet (sort of like he does through this car trunk), then switch back to a very, very small and dense Jack. There, he can start tearing the electronics apart, much as Wasp did to Ultron—and Ultron obviously has much more advanced technology. The Wingless Wizard would start to fall apart from the inside.

Actually, did I say “finally”? Because Jack also has his density fields that I talked about briefly in my first post. With them, he can make a flood of bubbles…but he can also make force fields of his own, such as this one that Alex created around an alien, this one that Julie made to protect from the depths of the ocean, or this one that Jack made to protect them from a space station the size of a moon was exploding from a nuclear missile. So, Jack can create this field around the others, as needed—and he can do it while he’s still in gas form, as Julie does when she makes the density fields here, here, and here.

He can also use the field in its bubble form as an offensive weapon as well, by sending them out in a burst. Here, Alex uses it to blast open a tube that previously resisted his Super-G punch, and here he uses it to blast apart a large machine. So if Jack infiltrates the Wizard’s force field as a gas, he can blast him in the face with it, while staying in gas form himself. Again, a nice KO option.

Now the rest of them.

If Julie happens to be on her own, again she can distract and confuse him. He’s not hitting her while she’s flying like this (one, two, three, four, five), and those lights trails—in combination with Jack’s fog—would be super annoying and make it hard to focus on attacking or defending against the others. The Wizard may be a “master of distraction,” as you say, but that won’t stop him from being distracted himself. This scene gives a good example of her speed--she both outspeeds, and then out-maneuvers, a space ship. The Snark flying it, who has studied their powers in depth, is also amazed at her speed.

But, Julie may also fly around with Alex and/or Katie. If it’s with just Alex, the two of them are likely to do surgical attacks using his Super-G kick, but using her acceleration to add to its power. She packs a punch on her own—here she is using her own speed to smash one of those tubes I mentioned before, that Alex’s Super-G punch on its own couldn’t break. Now the Super-G punch on its own is no joke, as I noted earlier they used it to one-shot knock out Arclight before, and she has significant superhuman durability; his can’t be THAT much better than hers, if at all. For instance, here Captain Marvel KOs Wizard with a punch. Here's twoexamples of a Mega-G punch against a guy who is supposedly invulnerable, and another guy who is hard like stone, and trashing a demon car from Inferno. They may or may not hot as hard as Wonder Man or Captain Marvel, but when adding Julie’s momentum to Alex’s Super-G kick, they can put together quite a lot of force. Even if it doesn’t take him out directly, it would really knock him around a lot. And Jack can even protect them with a density shield while they’re flying, before they hit him.

Another combo is Julie, Alex, and Katie. In this case, Alex will degravitize them all to make flying easy. In this mode, Katie will absorb all incoming energy blasts, protecting the other two, while also raining Power Balls at Wizard. Flying around with Julie will just make it easier to attack him from all directions, making it harder for him to dodge (especially against multiple Balls like this or this). I want to go into Katie’s Power Balls in relation to Wizard’s force field and physical durability.

Wizard’s field is indeed formidable. Volcana’s blasts in particular are no joke. But Katie’s destructive blasts are without a doubt stronger than Torch’s normal (non-Nova) flame or Volcana’s blasts—the ability to knock out Kurse or create an explosion that can be seen across the city is on another level than Volcana or Torch’s normal attacks. They're also powerful enough to affect Nova, herald of Galactus, here and here. Even Alex’s destruction of half the Empire State Building’s steeple is above that, and that was when he was just charged at normal levels. Here is Katie destroying a Snark force field.

Plus, check out this little wonder. It demonstrates both the destructive capacity of both Katie’s disintegration via touch, and her Power Balls:

Alex, using Katie’s power, disintegrates much of the engine nozzle of X-Factor’s Ship, which is a truly enormous object, as can be seen by its comparison to the Statue of Liberty. Ship was made by the Celestials and enhanced by Apocalypse, so certainly its materials are very durable, and Alex disintegrates a giant chunk of it. Then, using a couple blasts, he blows an equally huge amount off the other side of the nozzle. There is no way that Wizard’s force field, or his armor, is going to survive this kind of punishment. (Again for comparison: Volcana’s flames were able to fuse the circuits in the classic Iron Man armor, and if Katie’s blasts are more powerful than that, and they are, then they can certainly fuse Wizard’s armor.)

The use of their direct disintegration abilities can be seen here too, where Alex disintegrates much of the Master Mold Sentinel directly (which, since it takes place earlier in his career than the X-Factor scene, fills him up to capacity). Master Mold’s Sentinel technology is also very advanced and at least on Wizard’s level, but Alex destroys it with no problem simply through touch.

This brings up to another pairing, Katie and Alex. Let’s say Julie drops them both off on Wizard’s back—which I think she has the speed and maneuverability to do unharmed, especially if they’re defended by Katie’s energy absorption and Jack’s density field. Alex keeps Katie weightless, while she uses her powers to absorb the energy of the force field directly, and then disintegrates his armor by touch, just as she does to this guy's backpack. Simultaneously, Alex super-gravitizes Wizard, dragging him down to the ground, where he is unable to lift a finger (examples of increasing gravity: one, two, three, four).

First, can Wizard shake them off? Not likely. Here Alex holds on to a wild flying snake monster, which surely would be much more of a bucking bronco than the Wizard.

Can Katie absorb the force field? Here Alex, with that power, does it to Cannonball’s force field. And here Alex does it to a force field that is enveloping an entire ship (he can’t absorb it all because the field turns out to be the body of the Cosmic Abstract named Numinous). Can Katie disintegrate his armor directly, and can she do it quickly enough that Wizard can’t counterattack? She can certainly disintegrate the materials of his armor. Alex was able to disintegrate Ship and Master Mold, and Ship especially is certainly very durable. Here, Katie casually cuts a chunk of hull off of Friday, the Pack’s Kymellian space ship, which is certainly very durable. In terms of speed, she can disintegrate something as fast as she can wipe her hand across it, as she did with these bricks. With a wave of her hand she’d be able to disintegrate Wizard’s armor fast enough that he couldn’t counter attack, especially while he’s being distracted and attacked by Jack and Julie (fogging his vision, flying around his face with rainbow trails, Jack Hammering and air-bubble-streaming his face), and fighting Alex’s gravity dragging him down to earth.

Of course, Katie needs to power up to launch Power Balls of a high magnitude. How will she power up to this degree? Partly by absorbing any incoming blasts of the Wizard’s. As we’ve seen, his blasts are pretty powerful—his blasts equaled Volcana’s in a stand-off. So when she absorbs them, she’ll power up quickly. This also goes for any omni-directional blasts. Also, she can of course disintegrate random objects around her—even the air.

To all this, I add one more thing:

Power Pack has healing powers. The Kymellian they got their powers from was also a master healer, and he gave them this power too, although they didn’t know it at first. They can use it as a natural healing factor: early on Julie healed a broken arm in a matter of days. Over time, they learned to use it consciously. Here Alex uses it to heal a Elan. Here Katie learns to use it to heal herself after she was badly hurt after a huge fall. Here they all join together to heal Katie after she was touched by Pestilence, the Horseman of Apocalypse. (Pestilence’s disease is so bad that even before she was transformed by Apocalypse, Sabertooth said he would have died from it if he didn’t have his healing factor, and she had touched him only moments before.) Here Katie and Julie refer to it again. So, if any of them are badly hurt, one or two of the others may get together with them, while the other ones continue to distract Wizard, and heal each other, then get back in the battle.

(For full disclosure, I will note that the Alex in the healing scene above is actually a pseudoplasm copy of Alex who replaced him briefly. But, these copies’ powers are all the same as their normal powers, and they are stated to be exact copies of the original down to the molecular level. What pseudoplasm-Alex does is backed up by the rest of the Pack’s healing feats, and their powers “ancestry” through Whitemane, who gave them their powers. But I want to be scrupulous about the scans’ context.)

In addition, if Jack is hurt in human form, he can turn to fog. He will be healed the next time he turns human.

To summarize all this:

• Jack turns to fog and clouds his eyes. He infiltrates the force field as a gas, then either: Jack Hammers his face and/or hands, knocking him out or knocking off his aim; density-bubble-streams his face, knocking him out; or infiltrates his helmet and then wrecks his tech from the inside using his Hammer or density-bubble stream. He also uses his density field to protect the others.

• Julie distracts him, and helps transport the others where they need to go. She and Alex can combine to create a Super-Super-G kick, or she can also carry Katie and use her Power Balls, while absorbing energy attacks.

• Alex and Katie can also jump on Wizard and gravitize him to the Earth while Katie absorbs his force field and disintegrates his armor, while being protected by Jack’s density shield and Katie’s energy absorption.

• They'll heal themselves if hurt badly.

Their suits have radios, so they can all keep in touch about what strategies they’re using at any time.

On to a counter of specifics in your post.

In general I think they will be able to dodge or negate his attacks, and break through his defenses, as described above. But here are some specifics on the attacks you mentioned:

Anti-gravity disks: these are his most classic weapon. Luckily, the Pack is very well-suited to negate them. Julie’s flight should be enough to negate them until one of the others destroys the disk. Alex can easily use his power to negate them. Alex’s powers, as I’ve shown, are stronger than Wizard’s; he can gravitize enormous objects. He can even gravitize the entire Pack in a chain if necessary, as he does here against being sucked out into space, and he can then destroy the disk with his Super-G punch. When Jack turns to fog, the things he’s touching stay solid, so the disk would just fall off. (When wearing normal clothes, for instance, they fall off when he turns to gas.) Katie can disintegrate the disk, and can disintegrate it off the others. So while the anti-grav disks may be annoying, they won’t be a problem, and really Alex and Katie are the only ones likely to even be hit by them. (Spider-man was hit in the back when he wasn’t looking and was distracted by the other Frightful Four, and I can show all kinds of non-superhumans who tagged him in that era.)

The assault disks: I'm not sure what these actually do. I get that they would be distracting, but it seems like they could just ignore them.

The ECT disks: Again, only Alex and Katie are likely to even be hit, and only if Julie isn't flying them around, and Katie would just absorb the energy. Plus, Jack can protect the others against all these kinds of disks with his density shield. Also, are these really standard equipment? In the comic where he uses the ECT ones against Mr. Fantastic, I get the impression that Wizard made them specifically for that particular mission.

The omnidirectional-blast: is this really a destructive energy attack? It looks to me like it may be a flash of light to blind. The first focused blast is obviously destructive, but the second flash one doesn’t seem to do any damage to the people around him, they look like they’re reacting more like they’re trying to cover their eyes. That’s why he’s saying “illumination.” I could be wrong, but that's how I read this excerpted scan. Plus, if he has a giant area of effect blast like this as standard equipment, wouldn’t he use it more often? Seems like the kind of thing you'd do to enemies all the time, if you could. In any case, again Jack’s density shield would help protect against it, and Katie could absorb it, and protect the others if she was in front of them.

His knowledge of physics: sure, Wizard is no doubt a scientific genius, and can probably recognize the Pack’s science-themed powers. I would argue, based on the Intelligencia stories, and the FF storyline where Doom invites various genius villains to destroy the Council of Reeds, that Wizard comes off as being towards the lower rung of those groups--definite genius, but not at, say, Leader or MODOK's level. But yes, a genius. But, it doesn’t really help to recognize that someone has energy powers when they smacking you in the face with a giant ball of energy that just fried your suit, or to recognize that someone has gravity powers when they are dragging you down to the earth so you can’t move. So I don't think his intelligence will help much in this fight other than his technology itself.

Touch attacks: I don't think he'd get in range of anyone to use these, they're mostly either a gas or flying themselves.

Wizard's flight: I agree that he's a reasonably good flier. He's not slow. But Julie's super-pretzel flight paths are way more maneuverable than anything I've seen from him, or almost anyone really. In any case, they're not going to get in a direct chase, he'll have his hands full with multiple people.

The one factual statement that I really disagree with is that you say that "The Wizard’s gravity powers are more versatile than Alex’s and so far, exceed them." I just don't see this at all. Alex can gravitize and de-gravitize, do so through a chain of people or objects, and create the mega-G punch. At least so far we've only seen Wizard de-gravitize and spin something around. Alex can make a freighter, or a giant machine, weightless for hours. Wizard is only shown affecting people or small vehicles for a brief time. Alex's powers are greater in versatility and scale.

That's it for me for now! Looking forward to your response. I know some of Wizard's other powers are waiting in the wings.

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#17 Posted by Wyldsong (9577 posts) - - Show Bio

Yowsa...the Power Pack? Tag me for votes on this one=)

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#18 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: Sweet! It's getting exciting now. And here I thought I was the only one with very lengthy responses. It might take me a few days to respond to this.

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#19 Posted by HoboJenkins (209 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh this is interesting and different. I like it. T4V please.

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#20 Posted by Vertigo- (17500 posts) - - Show Bio

A team and a character who I've never heard of? Repped by 2 fantastic debators? Definitely T4V

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#21 Posted by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#22 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, these kids sure have a lot of feats, huh?

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Vs Jack

Jack will primarily be in fog form, where he can fog up the Wizard’s eyes, as he does to opponents all the time. The Wizard has a force field—but it must allow gas to pass through so he can breathe, and Jack’s expanded form acts just like gas. Jack will be able to permeate the force field in gas form and surround his head, blinding him. This will be a big help, since the others will be attacking from multiple directions, and the Wizard will not be able to react to them sufficiently.

The Wizard does have infrared vision in his visor, so visibility should not be an issue. However, Jack getting through the force field and behind the visor would indeed pose a problem. Is Jack completely intangible in his gas form? If not, electric shocks should still affect him.

The others may not be attacking though as the assault disks will have already been released. They will preoccupy at least Alex and Katie. Julie will have to avoid them as well, but may have the speed to not have that much trouble with them. Unless, of course, she touches them. Any doing so will then be caught in a zero-gravity field like Taskmaster and Constrictor were (Deadpool Vol. 1 #35).

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One, he can Jack Hammer the Wizard. You mentioned that the Wizard can blast him while he does this—but I’ve already shown that Jack can switch from gas to Hammer and back again almost instantaneously (some more examples here: one, two, three), so I really doubt that Wizard will have the chance to shoot him, especially since Wizard will also be reacting to what the rest of the Pack is doing. Also, Jack can be very small in Hammer form (the size of a quarter, here), it will be hard for the Wizard to even see him, let alone target him. So I don’t think Wizard will be able to shoot Jack while he’s Hammering.

But there’s the matter of Wizard’s blunt force durability—how can Jack actually hurt him out with a Hammer blow? There are two answers to this. One, Jack can attack Wizard’s limbs, ruining his aim when he’s trying to blast the rest of the Pack. Two, he can attack him right in the face. The Wizard’s armor has changed over the years, but one thing always stays the same—his lower face (at least) is always uncovered. Once Jack is inside the field, he can just Jack Hammer him with sixty pounds of weight right in the face, where he has no added durability, and knock him right the heck out (as he knocks out this alligator).

I’ll admit, given the scenario the Jack Hammer will probably land and catch the Wizard off guard. Based on your scans, it looks like Jack (among every other superhero ever) is a head hunter and will go for the face. While the Wizard’s face is uncovered, he can still take quite a wallop. In fact, the scans I’ve already presented with the Thing were at a time he didn’t even have the visor.

The Wizard is no stranger to getting punched in the face though. I’ll elaborate more later, but here’s a fine example of taking multiple hits from Carnage. Wizard can take a punch (Superior Carnage #2).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Finally, he can go for the Wizard’s technology. As a gas, he can permeate the insides of Wizard’s helmet (sort of like he does through this car trunk), then switch back to a very, very small and dense Jack. There, he can start tearing the electronics apart, much as Wasp did to Ultron—and Ultron obviously has much more advanced technology. The Wingless Wizard would start to fall apart from the inside.

That could certainly be problematic, but most of Wizard’s tech is very tiny circuitry. His microchips are the size of a fingernail. It won’t be bulky items like a trunk latch.

But being a kid, my money’s on Jack going straight for the Jack Hammer. If not, he will approach as mist to either blind or permeate the Wizard’s defenses as you described. Even if Jack is truly intangible, gravity is still a factor. And the Wizard is a master of gravity. He can sent Jack flying with but a wave of his hand.

  • Scan 1) Uses gravity powers to send the Frightful Four flying (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #38)
  • Scan 2) Uses gravity powers to send the Human Torch off balance (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #41)
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I’ve got a sweet special move coming up as well.

Actually, did I say “finally”? Because Jack also has his density fields that I talked about briefly in my first post. With them, he can make a flood of bubbles…but he can also make force fields of his own, such as this one that Alex created around an alien, this one that Julie made to protect from the depths of the ocean, or this one that Jack made to protect them from a space station the size of a moon was exploding from a nuclear missile. So, Jack can create this field around the others, as needed—and he can do it while he’s still in gas form, as Julie does when she makes the density fields here, here, and here.

These will certainly come in handy. It does look like there is a range limitation though. Jack will need to be focusing on his teammates, Alex and Julie in particular, to help them and not able to be on the offensive himself.

Luckily, the Wizard is no stranger to force fields thanks to the Invisible Woman. Wizard is equipped with a kinetic stabilizer that will essentially trap Jack or his siblings within his density fields. If that’s not convenient enough, he also has his “pain gun” capable of piercing those fields. He can trap teammates there for an extended time or blast them and leave them wriggling in pain.

  • Scan 1) Kinetic Stabilizer freezes Sue’s force field for 41 minutes. (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #515)
  • Scan 2) Pain gun passes through Sue’s force field. (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #547)
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He can also use the field in its bubble form as an offensive weapon as well, by sending them out in a burst. Here, Alex uses it to blast open a tube that previously resisted his Super-G punch, and here he uses it to blast apart a large machine. So if Jack infiltrates the Wizard’s force field as a gas, he can blast him in the face with it, while staying in gas form himself. Again, a nice KO option.

This power seems to contradict itself a little. So it’s soft enough to cushion someone’s landing but hard enough to destroy a computer console? And if he’s coming through the force field, which in general is a pretty close proximity to the Wizard, he has the space to launch this attack? Or does he need to be small to do it? And if he’s small, then would it have such a great effect?

Either way, in his mist form Jack is easily dispatched and sent to a safe distance as shown above or frozen solid.

Vs the Others

If Julie happens to be on her own, again she can distract and confuse him. He’s not hitting her while she’s flying like this (one, two, three, four, five), and those lights trails—in combination with Jack’s fog—would be super annoying and make it hard to focus on attacking or defending against the others. The Wizard may be a “master of distraction,” as you say, but that won’t stop him from being distracted himself. This scene gives a good example of her speed--she both outspeeds, and then out-maneuvers, a space ship. The Snark flying it, who has studied their powers in depth, is also amazed at her speed.

Well, he can hit her with the energy discharge from my previous post. Plus she’ll have to contend with the assault disks, which may only be a mere nuisance to her, but a distraction none the less.

While Wizard cannot duplicate some of those close quarters maneuverability moves, he can certainly exceeds those speeds and is quite maneuverable in battle himself.

  • Scan 1) Travels miles in seconds (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #300)
  • Scan 2-3) Travels into orbit before Human Torch even reacts (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #38)
  • Scan 4) Faster than the Human Torch (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #81)
  • Scan 5) Faster than Vision (note shocking the Vision whilst intangible, Jack Power!) (Avengers Vol. 1 #313)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

But, Julie may also fly around with Alex and/or Katie. If it’s with just Alex, the two of them are likely to do surgical attacks using his Super-G kick, but using her acceleration to add to its power. She packs a punch on her own—here she is using her own speed to smash one of those tubes I mentioned before, that Alex’s Super-G punch on its own couldn’t break. Now the Super-G punch on its own is no joke, as I noted earlier they used it to one-shot knock out Arclight before, and she has significant superhuman durability; his can’t be THAT much better than hers, if at all. For instance, here Captain Marvel KOs Wizard with a punch.

You are comparing someone with enhanced durability to someone with superhuman durability. That’s like three levels apart on Marvel’s power scales. The Thing, Wonder Man, Carnage, Superior Spider-Man would crush Arclight, as would Captain Marvel.

Do you know where that scan is from? There are many altercations with the Wizard when he was in the Hood’s company, many massive melees with superheroes where he took many a blow, but none where he was ever shown to be KO’ed (that I recall). I’d like to see for myself and if he was, I’m sure he took some beatings before that.

Here's twoexamples of a Mega-G punch against a guy who is supposedly invulnerable, and another guy who is hard like stone, and trashing a demon car from Inferno. They may or may not hot as hard as Wonder Man or Captain Marvel, but when adding Julie’s momentum to Alex’s Super-G kick, they can put together quite a lot of force. Even if it doesn’t take him out directly, it would really knock him around a lot. And Jack can even protect them with a density shield while they’re flying, before they hit him.

I don’t doubt that Alex’s Mega-G punch could hurt the Wizard, but he does need to get close enough to land it. I doubt the density shield will do much good against the Wizard’s anti-gravity powers. Let’s look at the Wizard’s signature move: the Typhoon Sphere. It engulfs whatever it hits and spins it rapidly. I doubt even Alex can counter this in time before it takes its toll on him. He completely controls its size and speed and it can remain for days.

  • Scan 1) The Typhoon Sphere explained (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #300)
  • Scan 2) Extinguishes the Human Torch (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #78)
  • Scan 3-4) vs Volcana (Marvel Comics Presents Vol. 1 #88)
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Another combo is Julie, Alex, and Katie. In this case, Alex will degravitize them all to make flying easy. In this mode, Katie will absorb all incoming energy blasts, protecting the other two, while also raining Power Balls at Wizard. Flying around with Julie will just make it easier to attack him from all directions, making it harder for him to dodge (especially against multiple Balls like this or this).

Could you clarify Katie’s powers? I see her absorbing energy in your first post, but I notice that 1) she is aware it’s coming, 2) it’s focused energy and 3) the energy needs to be “caught.” It seems her powers are voluntary, not involuntary, meaning any surprise or unfocused attacks would not be absorbed. For example, Wizard’s energy discharge or any type of attack that would strike her unaware (say, in the back).

Wizard’s field is indeed formidable. Volcana’s blasts in particular are no joke. But Katie’s destructive blasts are without a doubt stronger than Torch’s normal (non-Nova) flame or Volcana’s blasts—the ability to knock out Kurse or create an explosion that can be seen across the city is on another level than Volcana or Torch’s normal attacks. They're also powerful enough to affect Nova, herald of Galactus, here and here. Even Alex’s destruction of half the Empire State Building’s steeple is above that, and that was when he was just charged at normal levels. Here is Katie destroying a Snark force field.

Katie doesn’t have access to Mjolnir and Stormbreaker here, so while that’s a totally badass feat, she won’t have that type of energy to play with. I wonder the context behind that massive explosion as well. What did she absorb? She obviously has no control and it seems to have been a lot of energy.

As a rabid Galactus and his heralds fan, I have read those issues and Nova was not harmed by either of those blasts. They would certainly affect the Wizard as well, but I don’t believe to a win condition.

Plus, check out this little wonder. It demonstrates both the destructive capacity of both Katie’s disintegration via touch, and her Power Balls:

Alex, using Katie’s power, disintegrates much of the engine nozzle of X-Factor’s Ship, which is a truly enormous object, as can be seen by its comparison to the Statue of Liberty. Ship was made by the Celestials and enhanced by Apocalypse, so certainly its materials are very durable, and Alex disintegrates a giant chunk of it. Then, using a couple blasts, he blows an equally huge amount off the other side of the nozzle. There is no way that Wizard’s force field, or his armor, is going to survive this kind of punishment. (Again for comparison: Volcana’s flames were able to fuse the circuits in the classic Iron Man armor, and if Katie’s blasts are more powerful than that, and they are, then they can certainly fuse Wizard’s armor.)

The use of their direct disintegration abilities can be seen here too, where Alex disintegrates much of the Master Mold Sentinel directly (which, since it takes place earlier in his career than the X-Factor scene, fills him up to capacity). Master Mold’s Sentinel technology is also very advanced and at least on Wizard’s level, but Alex destroys it with no problem simply through touch.

These are certainly impressive and while the Wizard should be able to handle the average Power Balls, these high end ones could certainly be trouble. That is assuming she has the time to absorb something large while not preoccupied and she can hit a very fast target. But there’s something special for just these types of situations: the Non-Casuality Pocket.

They can be used on a target or in space as a sort of shield. If used on Katie (or any of the Pack), it can negate their powers or cause them to lose control of their powers. It can also be used to redirect her blast back at her. As you can see, this can be done quickly even at close range.

  • Scan 1) Negates the Human Torch’s powers (Fantastic Four Unlimited #5)
  • Scan 2) Redirects Guardsmen’s repulsor blast at close range (Avengers Spotlight #26)
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This brings up to another pairing, Katie and Alex. Let’s say Julie drops them both off on Wizard’s back—which I think she has the speed and maneuverability to do unharmed, especially if they’re defended by Katie’s energy absorption and Jack’s density field. Alex keeps Katie weightless, while she uses her powers to absorb the energy of the force field directly, and then disintegrates his armor by touch, just as she does to this guy's backpack. Simultaneously, Alex super-gravitizes Wizard, dragging him down to the ground, where he is unable to lift a finger (examples of increasing gravity: one, two, three, four).

First, can Wizard shake them off? Not likely. Here Alex holds on to a wild flying snake monster, which surely would be much more of a bucking bronco than the Wizard.

Super-gravitizing the Wizard is pointless. His main power is anti-gravity and he is the master of it. Weight doesn’t matter because he can simply negate gravity. He can also gravitize objects as well.

  • Scan 1) Collapses a building by saturating with gravitons (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #514)
  • Scan 2) Uses anti-gravity on surroundings (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #42)
  • Scan 3) Lifts a water tower (average 4,000 tons) and launches it at high speed to overtake the Fantasticar (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #81)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

So while Katie is absorbing the force field, the Wizard can still use any of the items from my last post, such as an anti-gravity disk (which will send them off just fine) or his electric shocks or neural disruptor. He could also just fly to high atmosphere or space in seconds where they would be unable to breathe or stand the temperatures.

Can Katie absorb the force field? Here Alex, with that power, does it to Cannonball’s force field. And here Alex does it to a force field that is enveloping an entire ship (he can’t absorb it all because the field turns out to be the body of the Cosmic Abstract named Numinous). Can Katie disintegrate his armor directly, and can she do it quickly enough that Wizard can’t counterattack? She can certainly disintegrate the materials of his armor. Alex was able to disintegrate Ship and Master Mold, and Ship especially is certainly very durable. Here, Katie casually cuts a chunk of hull off of Friday, the Pack’s Kymellian space ship, which is certainly very durable. In terms of speed, she can disintegrate something as fast as she can wipe her hand across it, as she did with these bricks. With a wave of her hand she’d be able to disintegrate Wizard’s armor fast enough that he couldn’t counter attack, especially while he’s being distracted and attacked by Jack and Julie (fogging his vision, flying around his face with rainbow trails, Jack Hammering and air-bubble-streaming his face), and fighting Alex’s gravity dragging him down to earth.

Wizard’s armor is mostly just clothes. It’s the helmet, gloves and boots that are the most important. I’d still say the armor is more durable than bricks and might take a little longer, but not denying she could do it. But she has to get through the force field first and I posted above what that delay could cost them dearly.

They most likely get one shot at this before he’s on to them and I don’t believe it will be successful. There’s a chance they would go for the helmet and not the armor, but the boots and gloves are where the real threat comes from.

Of course, Katie needs to power up to launch Power Balls of a high magnitude. How will she power up to this degree? Partly by absorbing any incoming blasts of the Wizard’s. As we’ve seen, his blasts are pretty powerful—his blasts equaled Volcana’s in a stand-off. So when she absorbs them, she’ll power up quickly. This also goes for any omni-directional blasts. Also, she can of course disintegrate random objects around her—even the air.

As I mentioned above, this looks like it takes concentration and effort. I’m thinking anything unexpected will land a blow to her. I will also throw in that all of the Pack has human durability when it comes down to it. But you cover that coming up…

Power Pack has healing powers. The Kymellian they got their powers from was also a master healer, and he gave them this power too, although they didn’t know it at first. They can use it as a natural healing factor: early on Julie healed a broken arm in a matter of days. Over time, they learned to use it consciously. Here Alex uses it to heal a Elan. Here Katie learns to use it to heal herself after she was badly hurt after a huge fall. So, if any of them are badly hurt, one or two of the others may get together with them, while the other ones continue to distract Wizard, and heal each other, then get back in the battle.

The natural healing factor won’t be of much use here in those time spans. They won’t have the opportunity to all get together, so distraction it is, but that opens the possibilities for members to be taken out while numbers are diminished.

Anti-gravity disks: these are his most classic weapon. Luckily, the Pack is very well-suited to negate them. Julie’s flight should be enough to negate them until one of the others destroys the disk. Alex can easily use his power to negate them. Alex’s powers, as I’ve shown, are stronger than Wizard’s; he can gravitize enormous objects. He can even gravitize the entire Pack in a chain if necessary, as he does here against being sucked out into space, and he can then destroy the disk with his Super-G punch. When Jack turns to fog, the things he’s touching stay solid, so the disk would just fall off. (When wearing normal clothes, for instance, they fall off when he turns to gas.) Katie can disintegrate the disk, and can disintegrate it off the others. So while the anti-grav disks may be annoying, they won’t be a problem, and really Alex and Katie are the only ones likely to even be hit by them. (Spider-man was hit in the back when he wasn’t looking and was distracted by the other Frightful Four, and I can show all kinds of non-superhumans who tagged him in that era.)

You make a point about Julie since I can’t recall him using one on a flyer, but if he sends it spinning it can certainly send her of course or disorient her. Falling from height or smashing into objects would certainly be trouble for her.

I’ve covered how increasing gravity shouldn’t matter since the disks negate gravity itself. You do have some good counters here no doubt, but they take time and effort that Wizard can use to his advantage offensively.

And yes, Spidey certainly has been tagged but we can’t forget he does have Spider Sense. Regardless, Mr. Fantastic is quite fast and unpredictable and has been hit with them before.

The assault disks: I'm not sure what these actually do. I get that they would be distracting, but it seems like they could just ignore them.

They shoot lasers and lasers are hard to ignore. And if touched can create an anti-gravity field to ensnare them.

The ECT disks: Again, only Alex and Katie are likely to even be hit, and only if Julie isn't flying them around, and Katie would just absorb the energy. Plus, Jack can protect the others against all these kinds of disks with his density shield. Also, are these really standard equipment? In the comic where he uses the ECT ones against Mr. Fantastic, I get the impression that Wizard made them specifically for that particular mission.

The thing is, defeating the Fantastic Four is the Wizards absolute obsession. All of his weaponry is designed specifically for the FF. He in particular focuses on Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman (although his Wonder Gloves match the Thing’s strength) and usually has Trapster take out Thing or the Torch and whomever else he usually has with him.

He’s always had the electricity since the old days; the ECT is simply a modified version of that since he progresses his arsenal as he continually fails.

The omnidirectional-blast: is this really a destructive energy attack? It looks to me like it may be a flash of light to blind. The first focused blast is obviously destructive, but the second flash one doesn’t seem to do any damage to the people around him, they look like they’re reacting more like they’re trying to cover their eyes. That’s why he’s saying “illumination.” I could be wrong, but that's how I read this excerpted scan. Plus, if he has a giant area of effect blast like this as standard equipment, wouldn’t he use it more often? Seems like the kind of thing you'd do to enemies all the time, if you could. In any case, again Jack’s density shield would help protect against it, and Katie could absorb it, and protect the others if she was in front of them.

The only shot we see in the aftermath is the following where Thing and Mr. Fantastic can be seen on the ground. Wizard was quite insane in Hickman’s run, thus the dialogue.

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There’s a lot of stuff you think he’d use more often but doesn’t. That’s just plot. But here he is on his anti-gravity platform, so since this is the only time he’s done anything like it maybe that would be the reason, although it is his glove that is glowing.

Touch attacks: I don't think he'd get in range of anyone to use these, they're mostly either a gas or flying themselves.

You provided a few scenarios that would get your team in this range.

Wizard's flight: I agree that he's a reasonably good flier. He's not slow. But Julie's super-pretzel flight paths are way more maneuverable than anything I've seen from him, or almost anyone really. In any case, they're not going to get in a direct chase, he'll have his hands full with multiple people.

She may be more maneuverable, but I think Wizard is faster. I’ve provided numerous reasons why the Pack will be more preoccupied and multiple examples of ways to trap your team members.

If it does get into a chase, they will both leave the rest of your team in the dust and it will be one on one. I know who my money is on in that situation.

The one factual statement that I really disagree with is that you say that "The Wizard’s gravity powers are more versatile than Alex’s and so far, exceed them." I just don't see this at all. Alex can gravitize and de-gravitize, do so through a chain of people or objects, and create the mega-G punch. At least so far we've only seen Wizard de-gravitize and spin something around. Alex can make a freighter, or a giant machine, weightless for hours. Wizard is only shown affecting people or small vehicles for a brief time. Alex's powers are greater in versatility and scale.

While I don’t have a feat showing lifting the weight of a cruise liner, every other aspect I think has been exceeded. He’s certainly more versatile in range, speed and application. While Alex just makes things lighter or heavier, Wizard can actually alter gravitational force. Wizard can also saturate things with gravitons to make them heavier as well. And as covered, he can negate gravity altogether. And he doesn’t need to touch to do it.

Obviously I can’t use them here, but with preparation the Wizard can actually change the direction of gravity to his choosing.

Summary

  • The Wizard has multiple ways to distract and trap your team.
  • The Wizard has the durability to take hits from your team.
  • Getting close to the Wizard would most likely be a mistake.
  • The Wizard has greater gravity powers than Alex and is faster than Julie.
  • The Wizard has multiple ways to deal with Jack’s density fields.
  • The Wizard has counters for Katie’s blast power.
  • The Typhoon Sphere would be trouble for any member of your team.
  • The best is yet to come.
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#23 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie Massive post alert! I think I could probably wrap up on the next one.

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#24 Posted by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie Massive post alert! I think I could probably wrap up on the next one.

Ha ha, well excellent. Yeah, I am no stranger to long wordy posts. I don't have too much to add in terms of new, extra abilities, so the rest of what I'll add will be counters, and strategies around your new powers here. So in terms of future numbers of posts, I guess as many as we both need to complete any countering and counter-countering we need to do.

One quick answer to your question about where the Captain Marvel punch scene is from, it's Avengers 12.1 (2010-12 volume). Here's a quick two-page spread I already had screen-captured, but I can provide more if you want:

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If there are any other issue numbers you want, let me know. I appreciate that you have put in all your issue numbers. Everything I've put in so far is either from the original Power Pack volume or one of a few crossovers in Thor or X-Factor (due to the fact that Louise Simonson wrote Power Pack and X-Factor, and Walt was writing his run on Thor at the same time), from what I can recall off the top of my head.

I can tell you I am glad I did not go with any of the weaker characters I was thinking of! Power Pack ended up being a very good match.

It will be a few days to fully respond, maybe not til Monday.

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#25 Edited by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart

The Wizard does have infrared vision in his visor, so visibility should not be an issue.

Wizard does have infrared vision through his eyewear, that is true. But, what if Jack gets in-between his eyes and his lenses? As we can see here when he says he has IR, which is probably the most standard version of his recent helmet, he has hardshell lenses over his eyes. Given that they just end against his cheeks, which are moving, squishable flesh, I doubt there's any kind of seal there. So Jack can just seep in underneath the lenses. All Wizard is going to see is fog crisscrossed by rainbows.

There is a city behind there if you look closely enough!
There is a city behind there if you look closely enough!

Is Jack completely intangible in his gas form? If not, electric shocks should still affect him.

Yes, Jack can ignore all energy as seen in these examples: Power Ball, electric blast (it'll "go through me like lightning in a cloud"), magical Inferno-created evil light-post energy blast.

The others may not be attacking though as the assault disks will have already been released. They will preoccupy at least Alex and Katie. Julie will have to avoid them as well, but may have the speed to not have that much trouble with them. Unless, of course, she touches them. Any doing so will then be caught in a zero-gravity field like Taskmaster and Constrictor were (Deadpool Vol. 1 #35).

The assault disks: I'm not sure what these actually do. I get that they would be distracting, but it seems like they could just ignore them.

They shoot lasers and lasers are hard to ignore. And if touched can create an anti-gravity field to ensnare them.

The multi-disk zero-grav prison could potentially be a problem, but as with most of these issues, Katie could just absorb its power/disintegrate it, Alex could negate it, and Julie could fly around, pushing it towards one of the others until Katie or Alex dealt with it. As Alex often finds, even if you de-gravitize something, something with thrust can still move it around.

Thanks for clarifying about the disks with the lasers. I agree that, with all the disks, the Pack will be distracted and have to deal with them for a while. This random Guardsman was able to take care of them pretty quickly though. In any case, the distraction of the many disks is probably at most cancelled out by the fact that they can attack Wizard from multiple directions at once, which will distract him as well.

I’ll admit, given the scenario the Jack Hammer will probably land and catch the Wizard off guard. Based on your scans, it looks like Jack (among every other superhero ever) is a head hunter and will go for the face. While the Wizard’s face is uncovered, he can still take quite a wallop. In fact, the scans I’ve already presented with the Thing were at a time he didn’t even have the visor.

The Wizard is no stranger to getting punched in the face though. I’ll elaborate more later, but here’s a fine example of taking multiple hits from Carnage. Wizard can take a punch (Superior Carnage #2).

When it comes to Jack hitting him in his unshielded face with a Jack Hammer: he’s not durable himself, just his helmet is. All those punches you’ve showed, they’re just people stupidly hitting him in the helmet again and again. If Jack hits him in the unprotected part of his face, where he’s a normal human (as he says himself here, he has no powers), Jack knocks him out like he does other humans all the time. Also, you said you hadn't seen him get KOd from a punch before. Here's an example where that same Guardsman knocks him out in one punch. (Edit: I found the issue, Avengers Spotlight 29. Here's the whole fight.) So his helmet has better and worse feats in terms of durability, but it doesn't matter because Jack is going to hit him in the actual face.

But being a kid, my money’s on Jack going straight for the Jack Hammer. If not, he will approach as mist to either blind or permeate the Wizard’s defenses as you described. Even if Jack is truly intangible, gravity is still a factor. And the Wizard is a master of gravity. He can sent Jack flying with but a wave of his hand.

  • Scan 1) Uses gravity powers to send the Frightful Four flying (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #38)
  • Scan 2) Uses gravity powers to send the Human Torch off balance (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #41)

Can you explain more about these examples where he just uses his gravity powers with a wave of his hand? Is he actually just doing it with nothing but his pure will, making gravity affect people at a distance? Or was there some preparation, or technology we don’t see here? I’m skeptical just because if he can do this, why bother with the gravity disks, which he’s much more well known for later, at all? I find it hard to believe that he could once create gravity effects by will from a distance, and then later restricted himself to using disks.

In terms of the effect of gravity on him in gas form...Gas is obviously affected by gravity as seen in the Earth’s hold on the atmosphere. But how would the Wizard deliver the effect of his power on Jack if he is gaseous, other than this "wave of the hand" power that hasn't been since since 1965? And what would it mean if some of Jack’s molecules were affected but others weren’t, since they can be so far apart? How fast would any particles move? Also, Jack can normally mentally control all his component molecules; could this mental control be enough to negate any anti-gravity? It's hard to see how this scenario plasy out, especially if Jack's fog is all around Wizard's face; it would be hard for Wizard to affect Jack and not himself.

Luckily, the Wizard is no stranger to force fields thanks to the Invisible Woman. Wizard is equipped with a kinetic stabilizer that will essentially trap Jack or his siblings within his density fields. If that’s not convenient enough, he also has his “pain gun” capable of piercing those fields. He can trap teammates there for an extended time or blast them and leave them wriggling in pain.

  • Scan 1) Kinetic Stabilizer freezes Sue’s force field for 41 minutes. (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #515)
  • Scan 2) Pain gun passes through Sue’s force field. (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #547)

This ["forcefield"] power seems to contradict itself a little. So it’s soft enough to cushion someone’s landing but hard enough to destroy a computer console? And if he’s coming through the force field, which in general is a pretty close proximity to the Wizard, he has the space to launch this attack? Or does he need to be small to do it? And if he’s small, then would it have such a great effect?

This kinetic stabilizer seems pretty cool. But, I don’t think it will help. Jack’s shield isn’t quite a classic force field made of energy, it’s really a “density field.” This means it is super-dense air. He does call it a “force field” at times, but he’s just being colloquial. Who knows what a kinetic stabilizer really does technically, but assuming it is designed to work against Sue’s force field (since as you pointed out, his gear is all designed to beat the FF), then it’s designed to work against an energy field that is like Sue’s. (In addition to all the handbooks that say her field is made through psionic energy, we can also see that it is energy here when pre-Secret Wars Molecule Man is unable to affect it because it is energy.) So, since Jack’s field is made of matter (condensed air) instead of energy like a normal force field, it won’t be affected by the kinetic stabilizer.

Actually this gives me the interesting idea that Jack could capture Wizard inside one of Jack's density fields, the same way Wizard would try to trap Jack inside it.

The pain gun—OK, that’s a problem. I’ll guess that since he’s only used it once (I take it), he’s probably not pulling it out as a first option here, and the Pack will already have worn him down before he gets to it. But also, while it goes through Sue's shields, it may not go through Jack’s dense-air shield, since as discussed that’s a very different thing.

How can it be both soft and hard? It depends on how dense he makes it. He can make a bunch of softer, floaty bubbles that together create a cushioning effect, or he can make it hard and stable enough to deflect energy and other attacks.

They've made the bubbles in general in all sorts of states, even while in gas form. I don't think their size would affect the force of it.

When it comes to Jack floating inside the helmet as gas, and then breaking it apart from the inside via Jack Hammer or bubble-blast, you said that the pieces are small and thus hard to get at. I’m sure that’s true, but so are Ultron’s, obviously, and again it worked on him.

While Wizard cannot duplicate some of those close quarters maneuverability moves, he can certainly exceeds those speeds and is quite maneuverable in battle himself.

  • Scan 1) Travels miles in seconds (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #300)
  • Scan 2-3) Travels into orbit before Human Torch even reacts (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #38)
  • Scan 4) Faster than the Human Torch (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #81)
  • Scan 5) Faster than Vision (note shocking the Vision whilst intangible, Jack Power!) (Avengers Vol. 1 #313)

I’m impressed with his speed. Some of that comes across as the classic Stan Lee hyperbolic verbiage of the time, but still, I’ll agree that he’s very fast, and seems to turn well too. But, Julie out-speeding an alien space ship that can fly at interstellar speeds, and is presumably only hampered by the atmosphere, is potentially better. And again, she has better maneuverability. He may turn quick, but it’s nothing like these crazy moves. So I am left with a much better impression of his speed, but he's not at Julie's level, especially on manueverability.

The intangibility power Wizard used against Vision won’t work against Jack. First, Vision noted that he was only in a "partially insubstantial form." The Vision’s intangibility does come through density control, but the Vision’s intangible form is still the same size as is normal form. Jack is like gas—he really changes state, not just density, as in the case where Alex uses that power to turn to water. Since his atoms are huge distances apart, I don’t think Wizard’s shock would find anything to touch; the chance that he’d hit any of Jack’s molecules would be remote. Plus, gas-Jack has no vulnerable points or organs like Vision still does in his intangible form. Jack is just a random cloud. All the atoms are completely separate from each other, they no longer function as a pulmonary system, etc. So any atom that was shocked would only affect that atom.

You are comparing someone with enhanced durability to someone with superhuman durability. That’s like three levels apart on Marvel’s power scales. The Thing, Wonder Man, Carnage, Superior Spider-Man would crush Arclight, as would Captain Marvel.

Arclight isn’t that much of a different level of durability. I know what you're saying about the official power ratings, but at least from what I've found, all her power grid ratings are fan-based, not official. In general in Marvel, strength and durability go hand in hand. She’s a 50 tonner—so yes certainly below Thing and Wonder Man and Captain Marvel, but not bad. As I’ve already said, it may not be enough to batter through his force field directly, but it will be quite a whallop, and a big distraction from Katie’s attacks.

Let’s look at the Wizard’s signature move: the Typhoon Sphere. It engulfs whatever it hits and spins it rapidly. I doubt even Alex can counter this in time before it takes its toll on him. He completely controls its size and speed and it can remain for days.

  • Scan 1) The Typhoon Sphere explained (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #300)
  • Scan 2) Extinguishes the Human Torch (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #78)
  • Scan 3-4) vs Volcana (Marvel Comics Presents Vol. 1 #88)

Typhoon sphere—I thought you might actually lead with this, it's a nice weapon. But as with the gravity disks, they can largely take care of it, although it does have the potential to cause some problems. Julie would get spun around, but could fly out eventually. Sure, she might smack against something in the process, but that’s not a sure thing, especially in an open space like we're in. And I feel like he hit Torch with a lucky shot; Julie can probably dodge a beam like that. Jack could make himself ultra-dense and sink down then switch back again. Here he does so against a similar Snark weapon. It does distract him, but he gets out. Alex can gravitize himself down to stick to the ground. Alex has actually some good agility and reaction times, as we see here in a zero-G flip on roller skates, and here when he knocks a bully's gun out of the way when it was pointed right at his face. Whereas Puppet Master and Volcana are not exactly known for their balletic agility. Katie might actually be able to absorb the energy of the wind. Or if they’re together, Alex can gravitize them all to the ground as a chain as he does against explosive decompression here. I agree that it could cause some chaos for sure. But it’s more of a distraction than a weapon to win, and he has to hit them first for it to do anything.

Could you clarify Katie’s powers? I see her absorbing energy in your first post, but I notice that 1) she is aware it’s coming, 2) it’s focused energy and 3) the energy needs to be “caught.” It seems her powers are voluntary, not involuntary, meaning any surprise or unfocused attacks would not be absorbed. For example, Wizard’s energy discharge or any type of attack that would strike her unaware (say, in the back).

Can Katie absorb energy automatically? She went around accidentally absorbing/disintegrating physical stuff all the time when she first got her powers. She would get surprised, and disintegrate something in an instant before she could stop herself, like here and here. I think it is possible she could also absorb energy with very little warning. But, I agree it would probably not work if it was a complete surprise. Luckily, the Wizard’s gloves tend to glow when he uses them, as you noted, so that will give her advance warning unless it comes from the back.

Katie can absorb all kinds of energy, it doesn’t have to be focused. For instance, Jack uses that power here to absorb life energy from an Elan. Or when he absorbed fire. So it can be all sorts of forms of energy, focused and ambient, free in the environment and inherent in people or objects.

But there’s something special for just these types of situations: the Non-Casuality Pocket.

They can be used on a target or in space as a sort of shield. If used on Katie (or any of the Pack), it can negate their powers or cause them to lose control of their powers. It can also be used to redirect her blast back at her. As you can see, this can be done quickly even at close range.

The Non-causality pocket: At first I was worried about this, but reading the scan, he himself says the pocket allows anything that goes through to happen at equal chances. This means that there is an equal chance for a Power Ball to dissipate, or to hit him at double damage. That’s fine, we can roll the dice there, I like those odds.

Super-gravitizing the Wizard is pointless. His main power is anti-gravity and he is the master of it. Weight doesn’t matter because he can simply negate gravity. He can also gravitize objects as well.

  • Scan 1) Collapses a building by saturating with gravitons (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #514)
  • Scan 2) Uses anti-gravity on surroundings (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #42)
  • Scan 3) Lifts a water tower (average 4,000 tons) and launches it at high speed to overtake the Fantasticar (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #81)

Again when it comes to Alex’s vs Wizard’s gravity powers: With these new examples you’ve shown, it seems like Wizard may have more variety (being able to make things move in different directions, and multiple delivery systems), but Alex still has greater strength of effect. They can both create zero-gravity, but Alex has been shown to do it to a much greater extent. Even that water tower pales in comparison to the ship (I was wrong, not a freighter but a passenger ship), especially when you consider that it had to float up through the enormous water pressure of the depths of the ocean above it before it got to the air. So this is the weight of the ship plus an exceedingly large amount of extra force from the water pressure. It’s way more than anything we’ve seen from Wizard. I could be wrong but the crushed building seems like it was a prep feat, and more than he'd have on his person.

The reason this is important is that if Alex does try to force the Wizard to the ground and flatten him, and it becomes a battle between Alex’s gravity powers down and Wizard’s gravity powers up, Alex is going to win that battle, he has the greater strength.

Also, I want to extend another example. I showed him de-gravitizing his father’s machine, but here’s a bit more of that to point out the scale of it—and this was when he just got his powers and hadn’t trained with them yet at all.

So while Katie is absorbing the force field, the Wizard can still use any of the items from my last post, such as an anti-gravity disk (which will send them off just fine) or his electric shocks or neural disruptor. He could also just fly to high atmosphere or space in seconds where they would be unable to breathe or stand the temperatures.

In terms of flying up to atmosphere where they can’t breathe, Alex will weigh them down so he never gets there. Again, gravity may be the Wizard’s thing, but it’s even more Alex’s thing. His greater gravitic strength will prevail, and drag them down. Anyway, Wizard’s not going to have time to do these things with much effectiveness. If Julie drops Katie and Alex on his back, Katie will go through the force field like a hot knife through melted butter. She has to struggle a bit for complicated things like absorbing air, or really huge objects like the Master Mold or X-Factor’s Ship. But with something like this, it would be pretty instantaneous, like it was against Cannonball, and the energy that Alex absorbed there not only provides Cannonball with his invulnerability but also his rocket blastin’, so it’s even more energy than she’d have to absorb from Wizard's force field. She’ll fall through the field, absorbing as she goes, and start disintegrating whatever she touches on his suit.

Wizard’s armor is mostly just clothes. It’s the helmet, gloves and boots that are the most important. I’d still say the armor is more durable than bricks and might take a little longer, but not denying she could do it. But she has to get through the force field first and I posted above what that delay could cost them dearly.

They most likely get one shot at this before he’s on to them and I don’t believe it will be successful. There’s a chance they would go for the helmet and not the armor, but the boots and gloves are where the real threat comes from.

When it comes to what she disintegrates on his suit, she’ll go for whatever seems important. As you noted, his gloves glow when he uses them, so she’d go for those. Also, his helmet is giant and/or baroque, it’s obviously a source of control. And the Pack knows about science, their dad is a scientist who created a machine that multiple aliens from across the galaxy think is impressive, so there’s plenty of science just in their family life; and Alex in particular takes after his dad, ending up in the Future Foundation as you know. Their arch-enemies are also usually tech-heavy, like the Snarks and the Bogey Man, so they could recognize what to focus on. (Katie can absorb matter and energy through any part of her body, so she can disintegrate with her hands and legs simultaneously. And again, she can do it very quickly as she does to this Snark's armor.) So if there's no backpack, it seems likely that Katie would go for his gloves and helmet, and take them out quickly.

I'll come back to the "mostly just clothes" remark later.

The natural healing factor won’t be of much use here in those time spans. They won’t have the opportunity to all get together, so distraction it is, but that opens the possibilities for members to be taken out while numbers are diminished.

In terms of healing, I agree their natural healing factor won't have time to do much here. But they can do it to each other just or pairs, or they can heal themselves. This does take concentration, so they’d have to take some brief time out from the battle to do it. So it does mean a calculated risk, heal themselves while others may be hurt in the meantime. But I expect that this what they'd do if they smacked into something from the Typhoon sphere, for instance.

Jack can also heal by switching back and forth between solid and gas.

And yes, Spidey certainly has been tagged but we can’t forget he does have Spider Sense.

I won't go into this much since it's well-worn territory on the forums, but as we see here, Spidey can be overwhelmed by multiple threats, as there would be against all the Frightful Four. Captain Marvel, who has a similar pre-cog ability, makes the same point.

The omnidirectional-blast: is this really a destructive energy attack? It looks to me like it may be a flash of light to blind. The first focused blast is obviously destructive, but the second flash one doesn’t seem to do any damage to the people around him, they look like they’re reacting more like they’re trying to cover their eyes. That’s why he’s saying “illumination.” I could be wrong, but that's how I read this excerpted scan. Plus, if he has a giant area of effect blast like this as standard equipment, wouldn’t he use it more often? Seems like the kind of thing you'd do to enemies all the time, if you could. In any case, again Jack’s density shield would help protect against it, and Katie could absorb it, and protect the others if she was in front of them.

The only shot we see in the aftermath is the following where Thing and Mr. Fantastic can be seen on the ground. Wizard was quite insane in Hickman’s run, thus the dialogue.

Based on your additional image, and some more research, the omnidirectional blast seems to be mostly light, not force. In the page you showed me, Mr. Fantastic was knocked back but basically OK. But also, that same scene happens to be retold in FF (Future Foundation) 22, where its lack of major damage seems more clear. It pushes back on the people a little bit, but it’s not doing much of anything to anyone. No one is seriously hurt, even the regular AIM guys are OK. So again while this blast could be annoying, it won't be enough for a win.

Touch attacks: I don't think he'd get in range of anyone to use these, they're mostly either a gas or flying themselves.

You provided a few scenarios that would get your team in this range.

In terms of Wizard’s shock-touch and other touch-based powers: there were only a few examples I gave where he’d be in range of touching: if Julie flies Alex in for a super-G kick, or if Alex and Katie land on his back. In the first, if he wants to touch them with a shock-touch while they’re flying in at him, he’ll have to turn his forcefield off first in order to touch them. Given the force that they’d be coming in with, even if he does manage to shock them, he’d still be affected by the Super-G kick. At best, both the Wizard and Alex/Julie would be KOd by their mutual powers, leaving Jack and Katie still standing.

I don’t think he’d be able to touch Alex and Katie while they’re on his back, Katie would get through his tech too quickly for him to do it, and would just disintegrate his gloves as he reaches for them, as I discussed earlier.

Katie doesn’t have access to Mjolnir and Stormbreaker here, so while that’s a totally badass feat, she won’t have that type of energy to play with. I wonder the context behind that massive explosion as well. What did she absorb? She obviously has no control and it seems to have been a lot of energy.

These are certainly impressive and while the Wizard should be able to handle the average Power Balls, these high end ones could certainly be trouble. That is assuming she has the time to absorb something large while not preoccupied and she can hit a very fast target.

The Manhattan-skyline explosion was after she was powered up by a bunch of demons in a major spell to open a portal to Limbo. So yes, definitely not a normal Power Ball, the goal there is to show how powerful they can be.

You’re right, the major concern for Katie is getting her powered up enough to unleash a big enough Power Ball. If she can energize herself enough, I have no doubt that she can take out the Wizard. But, how does she get that power since she doesn’t have Mjolnir around?

She has a few options. She can disintegrate random objects around her. The kind of Power Balls she makes from this won’t be enough to take out Wizard directly, but she can use them against the various platforms and disks he sends out, and to weaken his shield. For example, when she blew this hole in a wall, large enough to fit that giant machine we showed earlier, she had just been powered up from a few small things: a walkie-talkie, a window, and some small bolts holding the machine down. She can get that amount of energy easily. Similarly, when she blew a hole in the side of a Snark ship's hull, large enough for their own ship Friday to fly out of, she was at a very average charge level, nothing big at all.

For the big ones that she’ll use to totally take him out, she could get energy from a few sources. First, she can absorb the Wizard’s blasts, which are pretty powerful and would be a very helpful addition to anything else she absorbs or disintegrates. Second, Alex (the science-y one) can direct her to disintegrate part of the sidewalk down to the city power lines. There, she can get enormous voltage, enough to completely blast the Wizard out of the sky. Yeah, it’ll cause some power outages around the city, which they'd feel guilty about, but the Pack will concentrate on the main problem of the murderous Wizard over a temporary power outage. The third option is to get power from Alex or Julie. As I showed above when Jack absorbed energy from an Elan, she can absorb energy from other beings. Alex and Julie both output a lot of power through their abilities. Gravity, as one of the four major forces, and which under the grand unified theory is the same as electro-magnetic and other forms of energy, would be a prime source for Katie to really power up. Or, Julie could use her acceleration power to press straight into a building, flying in place, while Katie absorbs her thrust. Of course, either way the sibling’s power she’s using would have to focus on helping her for a bit instead of fighting Wizard, but it’s a good alternate source of nearly infinite energy in a pinch.

Long story short, she can charge up to massive amounts of energy from a few sources. And, I need to emphasize, that while I think she would need a better-than-average Power Ball to take Wizard down, it also doesn’t need to be at a Kurse-level blast either. So she needs to disintegrate more than a trashcan, but it doesn’t need to be all the way up to Mjolnir or a horde or demons’ magic either.

That is assuming she has the time to absorb something large while not preoccupied and she can hit a very fast target.

OK, that’s partly true, but first, if he’s flying defensively, then he’s not attacking them very effectively either. And second, that’s why Julie and Alex will carry Katie around after she’s charged up, to fly her close enough to help give her a good shot. Again, this is where Julie’s advantage in maneuverability comes in: she can get them to an advantageous position for blasting.

Wizard’s armor is mostly just clothes.

If this is the case, then what about all those hits he was taking in your examples? Or do you mean they’re armored, but not technological? Because if they’re literally just cloth, then if the Pack hit him anywhere but his helmet, they’ll knock him out or seriously hurt him.

In that case, all they need to do is get his forcefield off for Jack or Alex to knock him out through a body-blow.

At first I was skeptical that they were just cloth, to be honest. Handily, the scene right after he uses his omni-directional blast some reinforcing examples of the "just cloth" theory. In both the issue you showed with the omni-directional blast, AND in the retelling of that scene FF 22, some AIM guys shoot him with some everyday sleep darts that go right through his suit with no problem. So, it seems like his suit may just be cloth after all. Which is bad news for him.

Even more entertainingly, Bentley-23 kicks him in the balls here and it hurts him! (Again, FF 22.)

It would be fun to see the Jack Hammer or Super-G version of that!

In terms of his force field, I do want to point out that he doesn’t always have it on, as we saw with Volcana smacking him in the head, or the sleep darts, or any of the other times he was punched. So, there’s a decent chance the Pack may actually get some hits on him before he even realizes what a formidable team he’s up against—and with his field off, the Super-G kick or Jack Hammer, the air-bubble blast or Power Balls may take him down right away.

Taking all this into account, they still have plenty of options.

While I agree that they'll be somewhat more vulnerable to his various attacks than before (and he is also more vulnerable than I had guessed), I feel like most of their plans are still pretty well workable:

• They’ll be distracted by his various disks, and by dealing with the typhoon sphere, but at the same time, he’ll be distracted by their multiple attacks. Adding in their fogging and the loop-de-loop of rainbow trails, and I think they have the advantage of greater distraction here.

• Jack can still seep through Wizard’s force field, blind him by getting under his goggles, and either Jack Hammer him in the face, knock his hands around to mess up his aim, or seep inside the helmet and start tearing it apart from the inside.

• Alex and Katie can still very quickly land on his back, absorb his forcefield, and start disintegrating his helmet and gloves while Alex overpowers Wizard’s own gravity abilities and forces him to the ground, and the absorption/disintegration would happen quickly enough that he won't have much time to react effectively.

• Alternately, Julie and Alex speed around him and surgically attack with Super-G kicks while Katie attacks with massive city-grid-charged Power Balls from the ground. If Wizard turns off his field to try to grab Alex and Julie while they’re Super-kicking him, they’ll probably all get knocked out at the same time.

• Or, alternate-alternately, Julie, Katie, and Alex can fly around and Power Ball him even more accurately from the air.

• Meanwhile, defensively, Jack will protect the others with his density shields, and if they really get in trouble, they can heal themselves while the others keep up their attacks.

• Most of Wizard’s new powers will either not affect them to a win condition (typhoon sphere), or probably won’t even have a positive effect (kinetic stabilizer, non-causality zone).

• If all else fails, Jack is going to Jack Hammer Wizard in the balls.

Balls back in your court!

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#26 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: LOL I like this post. I'll try to get something up by this weekend. I might return the favor of researching your side.

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#27 Posted by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: LOL I like this post. I'll try to get something up by this weekend. I might return the favor of researching your side.

No problem. I have tried in general to avoid using really low"balling" stuff, just FYI--keeping to what seems like an actual poor feat for him, as opposed to stuff that's just PIS like when he loses due to being in blacklight or whatever it was after the fight where Wonder Man punched him. That kind of thing (the blacklight, or some of the stuff in the FF series when they go to fight the Inhumans) I felt like counted under the jobbing stuff that we agreed to avoid. It was a little hard for me to decide whether stuff like the darts and being kicked in the crotch counted as jobbing, or real insights into the limits of his abilities. In the end I felt like the stuff I mentioned was valid, but kept out the rest. I'm sure you'll find plenty of both kinds (jobbing vs actual bad feats) for Power Pack too. I'm going to the Toronto Fan Expo this weekend, I'll be back on Monday.

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#28 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: No, it's all good, I wasn't complaining. Genuinely a funny post. Have fun at the expo.

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#29 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio
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Lengthy Counters

Wizard does have infrared vision through his eyewear, that is true. But, what if Jack gets in-between his eyes and his lenses? As we can see here when he says he has IR, which is probably the most standard version of his recent helmet, he has hardshell lenses over his eyes. Given that they just end against his cheeks, which are moving, squishable flesh, I doubt there's any kind of seal there. So Jack can just seep in underneath the lenses. All Wizard is going to see is fog crisscrossed by rainbows.

Jack could most likely get behind the visor but I think the Wizard could easily speed away fast enough that Jack could not follow. That’s assuming none of the options I have presented work, which we will get to. Again, I still think Jack’s opener will be the Jack Hammer anyway.

Julie will be at minimum trying to take out assault disks and most likely trapped in an anti-gravity field by touching them. She will be preoccupied.

Yes, Jack can ignore all energy as seen in these examples: Power Ball, electric blast (it'll "go through me like lightning in a cloud"), magical Inferno-created evil light-post energy blast.

Touché. Looks like speeding away would be the route to take which is probably a natural reaction anyway (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #81).

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The multi-disk zero-grav prison could potentially be a problem, but as with most of these issues, Katie could just absorb its power/disintegrate it, Alex could negate it, and Julie could fly around, pushing it towards one of the others until Katie or Alex dealt with it. As Alex often finds, even if you de-gravitize something, something with thrust can still move it around.

Wouldn’t Katie have to touch them to do that? She would be weightless and have to rely on Alex or Julie. Julie has no way to deal with them since flight is basically her only power. And while Alex can change his gravity, could he change his direction? He’d need Julie to move to them and taking out one won’t necessarily take out the field. This will take time.

So while this is happening, any assault disks not forming the field would be firing on them and only Katie would have any hope of taking a shot. Additionally, if Wizard is not preoccupied by Jack he will have an opportunity to take them out as will with an intensified laser shot (Deadpool Vol. 1 #35).

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Thanks for clarifying about the disks with the lasers. I agree that, with all the disks, the Pack will be distracted and have to deal with them for a while. This random Guardsman was able to take care of them pretty quickly though. In any case, the distraction of the many disks is probably at most cancelled out by the fact that they can attack Wizard from multiple directions at once, which will distract him as well.

That random Guardsman does have a name (Frank Ensign) and he also has a Starktech suit (pretty badass). When he had his Stanetech suit, Wizard knocked him out in one punch (previously shown).

Only one of your teammates has the ability to destroy them and she needs to absorb things first before that can happen. This is the opening salvo and there is going to be many more than just the three disks Wizard threw in that scene. He will have dozens and they will be assault disks, not anti-gravity disks that are automated and have flight of their own. A much more difficult task to take out.

So as described above, in the opening salvo Wizard should only have to be dealing with Jack.

When it comes to Jack hitting him in his unshielded face with a Jack Hammer: he’s not durable himself, just his helmet is. All those punches you’ve showed, they’re just people stupidly hitting him in the helmet again and again. If Jack hits him in the unprotected part of his face, where he’s a normal human (as he says himself here, he has no powers), Jack knocks him out like he does other humans all the time. Also, you said you hadn't seen him get KOd from a punch before. Here's an example where that same Guardsman knocks him out in one punch. (Edit: I found the issue, Avengers Spotlight 29. Here's the whole fight.) So his helmet has better and worse feats in terms of durability, but it doesn't matter because Jack is going to hit him in the actual face.

To be fair, his helmet does cover most of his face including his jaw line, where a normal human is most likely to be knocked out by hitting. It’s not a large target that’s open, especially for a power punch. For a normal fighter, he’s only open to jabs and uppercuts, but uppercuts put you in a bad range to be in with this opponent.

Now Jack does have the advantage of shrinking to do his Jack Hammer that no normal opponent has, but it’s still a small target. The angle of attack will have to be perfect and has to assume Wizard won’t use his anti-gravity powers, energy discharge or force field.

Also, when I said I don’t recall him being KO’ed, it meant only in those battle royales where he was mostly a background character. He’s been knocked out a few times, I believe even once again in that same issue. You mentioned how we agreed to not use “jobbing” but the problem is: the Wizard is pretty much always on the job. Not just the CV definition of someone who loses all the time, but the real definition of someone who shows up to lose. That was literally Frank Ensign’s only story arc: he loses to the Wizard in his Stanetech armor and stomps his ass in his Starktech armor. And then knocks Wizard out again mano y mano in an uncharacteristic show of bravado from a Wizard with no suit or weaponry.

Can you explain more about these examples where he just uses his gravity powers with a wave of his hand? Is he actually just doing it with nothing but his pure will, making gravity affect people at a distance? Or was there some preparation, or technology we don’t see here? I’m skeptical just because if he can do this, why bother with the gravity disks, which he’s much more well known for later, at all? I find it hard to believe that he could once create gravity effects by will from a distance, and then later restricted himself to using disks.

He can use it at a short distance but I would say no more than 50-100 feet away and the power comes from the Wonder Gloves. The anti-gravity disks are used to take out or distract opponents so he can have his attention focused elsewhere. He did use both anti-gravity powers and disks simultaneously in the old days, but yes he hasn’t shown the anti-gravity power from his gloves that much recently, unless you count the Typhoon Sphere.

And no, it is not prep. I wish I could use prep because then I could show how he can actually change the direction of gravity.

In terms of the effect of gravity on him in gas form...Gas is obviously affected by gravity as seen in the Earth’s hold on the atmosphere. But how would the Wizard deliver the effect of his power on Jack if he is gaseous, other than this "wave of the hand" power that hasn't been since since 1965? And what would it mean if some of Jack’s molecules were affected but others weren’t, since they can be so far apart? How fast would any particles move? Also, Jack can normally mentally control all his component molecules; could this mental control be enough to negate any anti-gravity? It's hard to see how this scenario plasy out, especially if Jack's fog is all around Wizard's face; it would be hard for Wizard to affect Jack and not himself.

I think I’m following but I don’t know that Jack could control part of himself while the other part is out of control. I’d imagine that would be quite disorienting. And if you want to argue that he rarely uses this power, I believe the Typhoon Sphere would have similar if not greater effects and he uses that much more often.

This kinetic stabilizer seems pretty cool. But, I don’t think it will help. Jack’s shield isn’t quite a classic force field made of energy, it’s really a “density field.” This means it is super-dense air. He does call it a “force field” at times, but he’s just being colloquial. Who knows what a kinetic stabilizer really does technically, but assuming it is designed to work against Sue’s force field (since as you pointed out, his gear is all designed to beat the FF), then it’s designed to work against an energy field that is like Sue’s. (In addition to all the handbooks that say her field is made through psionic energy, we can also see that it is energy here when pre-Secret Wars Molecule Man is unable to affect it because it is energy.) So, since Jack’s field is made of matter (condensed air) instead of energy like a normal force field, it won’t be affected by the kinetic stabilizer.

While it’s certainly designed just for Sue, the name itself implies that it stabilizes kinetic energy. To me, that means it freezes objects in motion. That would include energy or matter. He just so happened to use it to trap Sue and Reed in her force field, exactly as he intended.

The pain gun—OK, that’s a problem. I’ll guess that since he’s only used it once (I take it), he’s probably not pulling it out as a first option here, and the Pack will already have worn him down before he gets to it. But also, while it goes through Sue's shields, it may not go through Jack’s dense-air shield, since as discussed that’s a very different thing.

Here is where I will agree. If his density fields are condensed air, the specifically designed energy of the gun may not pass through. I do however believe that it would be useful against other teammates. While Julie may prove too quick to hit without any other methods to hold her, Alex will be easily susceptible to it.

I also believe that it may be something even Katie could not absorb. It’s pretty unconventional and is a signal to the pain receptors as opposed to a beam of energy. And the best part is, Katie wouldn’t even move out of its way thinking she could absorb it.

How can it be both soft and hard? It depends on how dense he makes it. He can make a bunch of softer, floaty bubbles that together create a cushioning effect, or he can make it hard and stable enough to deflect energy and other attacks.

They've made the bubbles in general in all sorts of states, even while in gas form. I don't think their size would affect the force of it.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes perfect sense.

When it comes to Jack floating inside the helmet as gas, and then breaking it apart from the inside via Jack Hammer or bubble-blast, you said that the pieces are small and thus hard to get at. I’m sure that’s true, but so are Ultron’s, obviously, and again it worked on him.

Ultron is all robotic. Wasp even admitted to just “yanking wires.” And I’d wager that’s a fairly old comic before the tiny circuitry of today was even a pipe dream. I’d be more than happy to show scans from the old handbooks with Wizards clunky technology of the 70s.

But this day and age, Wizard has shown to be at the forefront of technology. I already mentioned the circuitry and microchips he hides under false fingernails to escape prisons. He’s even stolen and modified Starktech in ways that Tony Stark (undercover as Cobalt Man) was surprised at (Avengers/Thunderbolts #3). I doubt there are wires to pull since Wizard can control his own body without robotics.

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I’m impressed with his speed. Some of that comes across as the classic Stan Lee hyperbolic verbiage of the time, but still, I’ll agree that he’s very fast, and seems to turn well too. But, Julie out-speeding an alien space ship that can fly at interstellar speeds, and is presumably only hampered by the atmosphere, is potentially better. And again, she has better maneuverability. He may turn quick, but it’s nothing like these crazy moves. So I am left with a much better impression of his speed, but he's not at Julie's level, especially on manueverability.

I’m not sure how it’s hyperbole when it actually shows on panel that Johnny didn’t see him and he’s near/at space. The others are much more modern.

While I agree Julie is far more maneuverable, I certainly disagree with your assessment of the space ship. I mean, they are still in the city and nearby her other teammates. I doubt they are even exceeding the speed of sound in those panels.

The thing with Julie is: she’s a distraction at best and a liability at worst. I’d compare her to the annoyance of a mosquito or a bee, but at least those can bite and sting. She cannot afford to take one hit from the Wizard. (This pretty much applies to Alex and Jack as well):

Here’s a demonstration of Wizard’s energy and electricity blasts.

  • Scan 1) Destroys the deck of his yacht (She-Hulks #1)
  • Scan 2) Blows up the Fantasticar (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #81)
  • Scan 3) One hit KO on Thing (after anti-gravity disk) (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #94)
  • Scan 4) Sends Wonder Man to the ground in a crater. It takes him time to recover. (Avengers Vol. 1 #313)
  • Scan 5) Takes down the Savage She Hulk Lyra (She-Hulks #4)
  • Scan 6-7) Blasts take Infamous Iron Man (Doom) offline temporarily (Infamous Iron Man #6)
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The intangibility power Wizard used against Vision won’t work against Jack. First, Vision noted that he was only in a "partially insubstantial form." The Vision’s intangibility does come through density control, but the Vision’s intangible form is still the same size as is normal form. Jack is like gas—he really changes state, not just density, as in the case where Alex uses that power to turn to water. Since his atoms are huge distances apart, I don’t think Wizard’s shock would find anything to touch; the chance that he’d hit any of Jack’s molecules would be remote. Plus, gas-Jack has no vulnerable points or organs like Vision still does in his intangible form. Jack is just a random cloud. All the atoms are completely separate from each other, they no longer function as a pulmonary system, etc. So any atom that was shocked would only affect that atom.

Fair enough but I think you already covered how electricity won’t work on him anyway.

Arclight isn’t that much of a different level of durability. I know what you're saying about the official power ratings, but at least from what I've found, all her power grid ratings are fan-based, not official. In general in Marvel, strength and durability go hand in hand. She’s a 50 tonner—so yes certainly below Thing and Wonder Man and Captain Marvel, but not bad. As I’ve already said, it may not be enough to batter through his force field directly, but it will be quite a whallop, and a big distraction from Katie’s attacks.

Not sure for Arclight, but Wizard’s durability is officially 6/7. But I must agree, even the official handbooks can be unreliable. So, if strength and durability go hand in hand then the Wizard is up there with the ones you mention that you consider above her.

  • Scan 1) A mere touch obliterates an anvil (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #78)
  • Scan 2) Rips a stone steeple apart and throws it like a missile (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #81)
  • Scan 3) Punches through machinery like nothing (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #78)
  • Scan 4) Staggers the Thing with momentum (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #129)
  • Scan 5) Matches strength with Thing and hurts him (Fantastic Four Unlimited #5)
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Also, we are showing our age by both using the term ‘wallop’ in this debate. LOL.

Typhoon sphere—I thought you might actually lead with this, it's a nice weapon. But as with the gravity disks, they can largely take care of it, although it does have the potential to cause some problems. Julie would get spun around, but could fly out eventually. Sure, she might smack against something in the process, but that’s not a sure thing, especially in an open space like we're in. And I feel like he hit Torch with a lucky shot; Julie can probably dodge a beam like that.

Julie would be tough to hit for sure, but if she were I don’t think simply flying out is an easy option. Also, we start in an open space, but undoubtedly this will take to the streets where NYC is filled with vehicles, statues, signs, people, etc. And while you say it was a lucky shot against the Torch, I say it was probably more of a surprise. If not completely on guard, Julie can be caught by surprise as well, especially if distracted by her teammates being harmed or the many other distractions I have posed.

I won’t really get into it with the others. They may or may not have answers for the attack, but at minimum they will have to work to escape it. That is plenty of time for more devastating follow-up attacks or for Wizard to focus on another team member.

I agree that it could cause some chaos for sure. But it’s more of a distraction than a weapon to win, and he has to hit them first for it to do anything.

Hitting most of the team wouldn’t be a problem. I could potentially hit multiple at once since they all pair or chain up as you’ve demonstrated.

I would also like to bring another factor into the debate: civilians. Civilians will indubitably be in danger during this battle in a highly populated setting. Additionally, the Wizard could also purposefully put others in danger as a distraction. Being the heroes they are, they will of course put themselves in harm’s way or at minimum be distracted enough to give the Wizard more wiggle room or opening for an attack.

If you don’t think he would, consider that he was going to sacrifice NYC and kill everyone in it to harness the energies of the Negative Zone. (Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 2 #1)

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Can Katie absorb energy automatically? She went around accidentally absorbing/disintegrating physical stuff all the time when she first got her powers. She would get surprised, and disintegrate something in an instant before she could stop herself, like here and here. I think it is possible she could also absorb energy with very little warning. But, I agree it would probably not work if it was a complete surprise. Luckily, the Wizard’s gloves tend to glow when he uses them, as you noted, so that will give her advance warning unless it comes from the back.

Katie can absorb all kinds of energy, it doesn’t have to be focused. For instance, Jack uses that power here to absorb life energy from an Elan. Or when he absorbed fire. So it can be all sorts of forms of energy, focused and ambient, free in the environment and inherent in people or objects.

That still seems a little like it requires focus. I don’t think her not having control of her powers equates that she absorbs everything that touches her. Otherwise she would literally absorb everything in those scans.

Also, the gloves don’t typically glow before use. The scan I showed has it glowing after, which is actually out of the norm. But I would agree energy blasts versus Katie would be a big mistake. Fortunately, I think Wizard would catch on to that ability fairly quickly.

The Non-causality pocket: At first I was worried about this, but reading the scan, he himself says the pocket allows anything that goes through to happen at equal chances. This means that there is an equal chance for a Power Ball to dissipate, or to hit him at double damage. That’s fine, we can roll the dice there, I like those odds.

While it has never been shown to adversely affect the Wizard, it seems to me that the pocket reflects attacks. It’s more like a mirror than a portal. I don’t disagree that it could simply dissipate the attack but I don’t think it would turn on him.

Again when it comes to Alex’s vs Wizard’s gravity powers: With these new examples you’ve shown, it seems like Wizard may have more variety (being able to make things move in different directions, and multiple delivery systems), but Alex still has greater strength of effect. They can both create zero-gravity, but Alex has been shown to do it to a much greater extent. Even that water tower pales in comparison to the ship (I was wrong, not a freighter but a passenger ship), especially when you consider that it had to float up through the enormous water pressure of the depths of the ocean above it before it got to the air. So this is the weight of the ship plus an exceedingly large amount of extra force from the water pressure. It’s way more than anything we’ve seen from Wizard. I could be wrong but the crushed building seems like it was a prep feat, and more than he'd have on his person.

The ship is certainly a much greater weight than anything Wizard has ever lifted but it did take some work for Alex to do it. And all he really did was degravitize it. Wizard effortlessly degravitized the water tower and launched it with great speeds. Also, Alex has an ability feat while Wizard’s is a combat feat.

I will agree on the building since it was a set up intended to kill the FF. I was pointing out that he has the ability as well but I suppose I wasn’t clear about it. Wizard has never done it in combat so I really haven’t used it as any part of my strategy.

The reason this is important is that if Alex does try to force the Wizard to the ground and flatten him, and it becomes a battle between Alex’s gravity powers down and Wizard’s gravity powers up, Alex is going to win that battle, he has the greater strength.

Alex has indeed degravitized the heavier object, but as I have said before, the Wizard’s power is anti-gravity. That’s no gravity. The weight of the object shouldn’t matter at all. Now while that in itself is a NLF, we are only talking about the weight of the Wizard himself being increased.

Also, doesn’t Alex have to have contact with Wizard for this? There has to be a dozen things I’ve covered so far that are huge problems for Alex up close, from electrocution to typhoon spheres to the neural disruptor to the simple matter of a massive strength advantage.

Katie Power

Since this is getting quite lengthy, I will just post my thoughts on Katie latching on and absorbing Wizard’s armor instead of going counter for counter. Ignoring the touch based attacks and anti-gravity disks as well as the massive strength advantage; I would like to bring a few very troublesome close quarters abilities to the table.

While mild compared to a true telepath, the Wizard can hypnotize and control those within his immediate vicinity with some effort. This is not to be confused with his earlier Id Machine which was an actual external device. He has since equipped his helmet with the technology. It’s possible to break free of this control with some coaxing, but it is certainly enough to stop Katie from her assault or control the one who flew her there to attack her for him.

  • Scans 1-3) Controls Spider-Man to attack the Human Torch (Marvel Team-Up #2)
  • Scans 4-5) Controls Medusa (FF Vol. 2 #7)
  • Scans 6-8) Controls Prison Guards (Superior Carnage #1)
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Another option is casting illusions. Again, this only works in close proximity but it should be more than enough to get any of the team off of him. If you read the scans you’ll see that neither instance was specifically prepped, as Spider-Man and the FF both came unexpectedly to thwart him.

  • Scans 1-2) Creates a virtual landscape for Spider-Man (Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 2 #1)
  • Scans 3-4) Makes the Fantastic Four think they cannot use their powers (Fantastic Four Vol. 3 #29)
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For context, Spider-Man was put into a virtual landscape and he was even aware that it wasn’t real, but still had no idea he was sitting in a chair tied up. The FF were made to believe they had no powers but Tony Stark (in Doom’s armor) saw through it and was able to convince his teammates that it was an illusion.

So Katie can reach for the helmet and get it with the gloves or reach for the gloves and get it with the helmet. Potentially either could happen before she gets through the force field which unlike Cannonball, is continually powered by Wizard’s gloves.

Based on your additional image, and some more research, the omnidirectional blast seems to be mostly light, not force. In the page you showed me, Mr. Fantastic was knocked back but basically OK. But also, that same scene happens to be retold in FF (Future Foundation) 22, where its lack of major damage seems more clear. It pushes back on the people a little bit, but it’s not doing much of anything to anyone. No one is seriously hurt, even the regular AIM guys are OK. So again while this blast could be annoying, it won't be enough for a win.

I didn’t think it would be a win but it’s enough to keep them away. It’s enough to knock back the Thing and have Sue use her force field. It’s certainly less impressive than his direct blasts but an excellent option for multiple attackers.

So to the big threat: Katie Power. I have no doubt that one of Katie’s high end blasts could take the Wizard down if she can land one. I don’t think after seeing her do it once he would be firing any energy at her himself, so she will be looking for the other sources you mention.

But Wizard does have one energy blast she can’t absorb that takes her out of the fight completely (besides the Pain Gun). Feast your eyes on the temporal loop. (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #515)

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Once he figures out her power he would probably bait her with this. Even if she could absorb the first blast, the secondary blast will put her in a loop and she’s out of the game.

The Armor

So as I said and as you figured out, his suit is mostly just clothes. Now, with that being said, he has still taken some extreme hits from many superheroes. I’ve shown scans of him being smashed through brick and walls as well. It’s not very consistent, but it must be padded in some way to protect him from things like that.

I don’t think a few hits to the body is a game changer. And yes, the force field isn’t on all the time and he will take a few hits, but he can take them. The force field will most likely be up for Katie’s Power Balls since he tends to use them against energy attacks as opposed to melee.

Conclusion

  • It still stands: the Wizard is the king of distraction. Assault disks, typhoon spheres, mind control, illusions and a myriad of others.
  • Getting close to the Wizard is more dangerous than keeping distance.
  • The Wizard has incredible speed and durability as well as a massive strength advantage.
  • The Wizard’s gravity powers are more versatile and combat useful than Alex’s.
  • The Power Pack will have to be concerned for each other as well as civilians.
  • The Wizard has half a dozen ways to defeat each member of your team.
Directed in character to your team, not you, lol.
Directed in character to your team, not you, lol.

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#30 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie Sorry for the delay. I kind of cut it short at the end (I'm sure the voters don't mind) but I think I've covered everything from your post. I don't think I need another post unless you bring a lot of new things to the table or you just want some clarifications on anything.

Technically, I should just concede the match after this gem:

If all else fails, Jack is going to Jack Hammer Wizard in the balls.

I'm way too old to be laughing so much at that.

Take all the time you need to respond. I'm sure to be without power for a while after the hurricane.

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#31 Posted by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie Sorry for the delay. I kind of cut it short at the end (I'm sure the voters don't mind) but I think I've covered everything from your post. I don't think I need another post unless you bring a lot of new things to the table or you just want some clarifications on anything.

Technically, I should just concede the match after this gem:

If all else fails, Jack is going to Jack Hammer Wizard in the balls.

I'm way too old to be laughing so much at that.

Take all the time you need to respond. I'm sure to be without power for a while after the hurricane.

A great read and you certainly saved the most dangerous gear til the end. I'll have to see what I can do to get around that stuff! Hope you and yours manage to get out of the path of the storm or at least have a pretty safe spot to stay during it. I'll be somewhere in the few-to-several-days to finish up. I imagine I'll counter and pretty much sum up. I have one minor additional ability to describe, but it's more of a "if all else fails" kind of thing, so you can certainly add in any final comments about that.

I have to admit, I had too much fun with the ball jokes myself.

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#32 Posted by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

As we near the end, it's clear that the Wingless Wizard will prove to be a real challenge for the Pack. But, I am still confident that they would take a majority of wins over Bentley.

Lengthy Counter-Counters

Jack could most likely get behind the visor but I think the Wizard could easily speed away fast enough that Jack could not follow. That’s assuming none of the options I have presented work, which we will get to. Again, I still think Jack’s opener will be the Jack Hammer anyway.

I think Jack’s first move is likely to be to smoke up Wizard’s goggles. This tends to be a common first teamwork-style strategy. So Wizard will be blind and unable to accurately attack or defend while the others attack, probably with Katie blasting at him, or the double-team Katie disintegration/Alex weigh him down to the ground move. If for whatever reason this didn’t work, or just as a second move, he’d go for the Jack Hammer in the face/balls, maybe reinforced by the air bubble blast. As a third option, he’d go inside the helmet.

Julie will be at minimum trying to take out assault disks and most likely trapped in an anti-gravity field by touching them. She will be preoccupied.

I don’t think Julie would really try to take out the assault disks. She acts primarily as a distraction and as transportation for the others—in this case, getting Alex and Katie where they need to be.

Yes, Jack can ignore all energy as seen in these examples: Power Ball, electric blast (it'll "go through me like lightning in a cloud"), magical Inferno-created evil light-post energy blast.

Touché. Looks like speeding away would be the route to take which is probably a natural reaction anyway (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #81).

This is a great, relevant scan, I love that you found this. The problem is that it actually proves my point—that he is susceptible enough to smoke/gas that he needs to fly away from it. Also, he won’t be able to fly away from Jack, whose smoke is sentient. Jack will just be able to follow Wizard. I’ve already shown his own flying speed is as fast as Julie (for instance here, where he matches her speed in a life or death situation to get to the surface), and I also kind of doubt that the air around Wizard's helmet would be stripped away during flight, otherwise he couldn’t breathe. So, flying away won’t help—especially when he’s trying to fly while blind.

The multi-disk zero-grav prison could potentially be a problem, but as with most of these issues, Katie could just absorb its power/disintegrate it, Alex could negate it, and Julie could fly around, pushing it towards one of the others until Katie or Alex dealt with it. As Alex often finds, even if you de-gravitize something, something with thrust can still move it around.

Wouldn’t Katie have to touch them to do that? She would be weightless and have to rely on Alex or Julie. Julie has no way to deal with them since flight is basically her only power. And while Alex can change his gravity, could he change his direction? He’d need Julie to move to them and taking out one won’t necessarily take out the field. This will take time.

Katie would have to touch the disks to disintegrate them, but again the disintegration process is pretty instantaneous. The disks that make the trap won’t be there anymore. I’m not worried about her getting stuck inside.

Alex can change direction while weightless. He uses minute up and down motions, in combination with his strapped-on wings. Over time he grew to be a pretty effective flier.

That random Guardsman does have a name (Frank Ensign) and he also has a Starktech suit (pretty badass). When he had his Stanetech suit, Wizard knocked him out in one punch (previously shown).

He has a name, but he’s a random Guardsman in the sense that he has no special abilities beyond any other Guardsman, and just has a basic Guardsman Mark I suit, as it says. I'm mostly interested in how he could crush the Wonder Gloves, as Superior Spider-man also does (see scan near the bottom of this entry).

To be fair, his helmet does cover most of his face including his jaw line, where a normal human is most likely to be knocked out by hitting. It’s not a large target that’s open, especially for a power punch. For a normal fighter, he’s only open to jabs and uppercuts, but uppercuts put you in a bad range to be in with this opponent.

Now Jack does have the advantage of shrinking to do his Jack Hammer that no normal opponent has, but it’s still a small target. The angle of attack will have to be perfect and has to assume Wizard won’t use his anti-gravity powers, energy discharge or force field.

In his shrunken form, he should have no problem smacking him in the nose or chin. Jack has lots of experience hitting people in the face, I’m not concerned about his targeting. And again, as I have shown he can switch from gas to mini-form and back almost instantaneously (like here and here), Wizard won’t have time to react and use one of those defenses, particularly when it's against a teeny figure surprisingly showing up inches from his face and hitting him the next moment. And again, he’ll already be inside the force field, simply coalescing from gas inside his goggles into a kid smacking him in the face in an instant.

As just one final example of how quickly they can switch state, here Alex uses that power to switch to cloud form instinctually when a power ball is shot at him.

Also, when I said I don’t recall him being KO’ed, it meant only in those battle royales where he was mostly a background character. He’s been knocked out a few times, I believe even once again in that same issue. You mentioned how we agreed to not use “jobbing” but the problem is: the Wizard is pretty much always on the job. Not just the CV definition of someone who loses all the time, but the real definition of someone who shows up to lose. That was literally Frank Ensign’s only story arc: he loses to the Wizard in his Stanetech armor and stomps his ass in his Starktech armor. And then knocks Wizard out again mano y mano in an uncharacteristic show of bravado from a Wizard with no suit or weaponry.

Yeah, the part where he knocks out the suitless Wizard is certainly not a relevant feat, of course. But, while Wizard loses like all bad guys, he also shows up and has impressive feats—as you’ve shown. So the key for me is figuring out which losses are legit and which are just plot based. For example: which feats truly reflect his armor’s durability, which are just to make him look like a worthwhile challenge in the story’s set-up, and which are just make the hero look good in the story’s resolution. He is definitely written to look like a loser in some stories—as a Molecule Man fan I can sympathize—but on the other hand he is also given plenty of real respect by the writers and characters for his genius and abilities. So I don't see him as a total jobber.

In terms of the effect of gravity on him in gas form...Gas is obviously affected by gravity as seen in the Earth’s hold on the atmosphere. But how would the Wizard deliver the effect of his power on Jack if he is gaseous, other than this "wave of the hand" power that hasn't been since since 1965? And what would it mean if some of Jack’s molecules were affected but others weren’t, since they can be so far apart? How fast would any particles move? Also, Jack can normally mentally control all his component molecules; could this mental control be enough to negate any anti-gravity? It's hard to see how this scenario plasy out, especially if Jack's fog is all around Wizard's face; it would be hard for Wizard to affect Jack and not himself.

I think I’m following but I don’t know that Jack could control part of himself while the other part is out of control. I’d imagine that would be quite disorienting. And if you want to argue that he rarely uses this power, I believe the Typhoon Sphere would have similar if not greater effects and he uses that much more often.

I’m saying that if part or all of Jack was affected by anti-gravity, then there is a question of whether he could counter that anti-gravity force, since he basically moves all his atoms psionically while in gas form. It’s not like he rides the wind or whatever, he just flies using the power of his mind. It’s basically a kind of telekinesis on his own atoms. So he could potentially override the antigravity. It might be disorienting to do this, and would require some effort though. But mostly I think Wizard is unlikely to do it just because Jack’ll be able to get pretty close to the Wizard’s own body pretty quickly, in which case I think the wave of the hand anti-gravity power, and certainly the typhoon sphere, would be too hard to use effectively without getting the Wizard himself caught up in it.

I do feel like he is unlikely to use the wave of the hand antigravity power, since he does tend to use the disks instead these days. I agree the typhoon sphere is much more common for him to use, but again I think he’ll be too close to use it.

This kinetic stabilizer seems pretty cool. But, I don’t think it will help. Jack’s shield isn’t quite a classic force field made of energy, it’s really a “density field.” This means it is super-dense air. He does call it a “force field” at times, but he’s just being colloquial. Who knows what a kinetic stabilizer really does technically, but assuming it is designed to work against Sue’s force field (since as you pointed out, his gear is all designed to beat the FF), then it’s designed to work against an energy field that is like Sue’s. (In addition to all the handbooks that say her field is made through psionic energy, we can also see that it is energy here when pre-Secret Wars Molecule Man is unable to affect it because it is energy.) So, since Jack’s field is made of matter (condensed air) instead of energy like a normal force field, it won’t be affected by the kinetic stabilizer.

While it’s certainly designed just for Sue, the name itself implies that it stabilizes kinetic energy. To me, that means it freezes objects in motion. That would include energy or matter. He just so happened to use it to trap Sue and Reed in her force field, exactly as he intended.

If I tried to figure out what a kinetic stabilizer did based on just the name, I would agree that it probably stabilizes kinetic energy. But, the way he actually uses it and describes it seems to have nothing to do with that. Sue’s force field doesn’t use kinetic energy and is not an object in motion, so something that truly stabilized kinetic energy would have no effect on it. Instead the weapon seems to stabilize pure energy and make it solid. As he says, "You used your force-field exactly as I anticipated, allowing me to solidify it." I’d say this is an example of a writer using a fancy-sounding name without really thinking about what it means. Regardless, it would have no effect on an already-solid dense-air shield.

The pain gun—OK, that’s a problem. I’ll guess that since he’s only used it once (I take it), he’s probably not pulling it out as a first option here, and the Pack will already have worn him down before he gets to it. But also, while it goes through Sue's shields, it may not go through Jack’s dense-air shield, since as discussed that’s a very different thing.

Here is where I will agree. If his density fields are condensed air, the specifically designed energy of the gun may not pass through. I do however believe that it would be useful against other teammates. While Julie may prove too quick to hit without any other methods to hold her, Alex will be easily susceptible to it.

I also believe that it may be something even Katie could not absorb. It’s pretty unconventional and is a signal to the pain receptors as opposed to a beam of energy. And the best part is, Katie wouldn’t even move out of its way thinking she could absorb it.

Any kind of signal that acts at a distance like this is a beam of energy. I think that she could probably absorb it, but would be too distracted by the pain it caused to easily do so.

When it comes to Jack floating inside the helmet as gas, and then breaking it apart from the inside via Jack Hammer or bubble-blast, you said that the pieces are small and thus hard to get at. I’m sure that’s true, but so are Ultron’s, obviously, and again it worked on him.

Ultron is all robotic. Wasp even admitted to just “yanking wires.” And I’d wager that’s a fairly old comic before the tiny circuitry of today was even a pipe dream. I’d be more than happy to show scans from the old handbooks with Wizards clunky technology of the 70s.

But this day and age, Wizard has shown to be at the forefront of technology. I already mentioned the circuitry and microchips he hides under false fingernails to escape prisons. He’s even stolen and modified Starktech in ways that Tony Stark (undercover as Cobalt Man) was surprised at (Avengers/Thunderbolts #3). I doubt there are wires to pull since Wizard can control his own body without robotics.

This scan of yours proves my point. You can see that the doohickey he’s holding has wires and circuitry stuff that is messed up and pulled out. This is exactly what Jack could do to it—and again, not just by physically grabbing at it, but by using the air bubble blast against it too. Even micro-condensed circuits can be messed up, and while that Ultron scan is from Secret Wars I in the 80s, there were micro-circuits then too. Not as small as now, but what Wasp did, and what Jack would do, are still pretty analogous.

I’m impressed with his speed. Some of that comes across as the classic Stan Lee hyperbolic verbiage of the time, but still, I’ll agree that he’s very fast, and seems to turn well too. But, Julie out-speeding an alien space ship that can fly at interstellar speeds, and is presumably only hampered by the atmosphere, is potentially better. And again, she has better maneuverability. He may turn quick, but it’s nothing like these crazy moves. So I am left with a much better impression of his speed, but he's not at Julie's level, especially on manueverability.

I’m not sure how it’s hyperbole when it actually shows on panel that Johnny didn’t see him and he’s near/at space. The others are much more modern.

In terms of hyperbole, I mostly meant the "miles away before Dragon Man can react," but looking closer I see that's of a more recent vintage than the Lee era. Anyway, I wouldn't take that specific line literally. The rest is fine.

While I agree Julie is far more maneuverable, I certainly disagree with your assessment of the space ship. I mean, they are still in the city and nearby her other teammates. I doubt they are even exceeding the speed of sound in those panels.

There are points where they are flying in open sky. The pilot of the ship has no concern for the effects of his ship’s flight on humans, so there’s no reason for him to not fly as fast as he can in atmospheric flight. That's obviously going to be at far-below interstellar flight speeds, but still pretty fast.

The thing with Julie is: she’s a distraction at best and a liability at worst. I’d compare her to the annoyance of a mosquito or a bee, but at least those can bite and sting. She cannot afford to take one hit from the Wizard. (This pretty much applies to Alex and Jack as well):

I agree that they can’t take major hits from, say, his main blasts. Some of the more minor disks’ blasts, and if they get smacked around physically by the typhoon sphere, they might be able to heal from. They will focus on dodging, which they can largely do by having Julie fly Katie and Alex around, and/or have Katie absorbing the blasts, and Jack being gas. Again, Julie is about distraction and transportation.

Here’s a demonstration of Wizard’s energy and electricity blasts.

    • Scan 1) Destroys the deck of his yacht (She-Hulks #1)
    • Scan 2) Blows up the Fantasticar (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #81)
    • Scan 3) One hit KO on Thing (after anti-gravity disk) (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #94)
    • Scan 4) Sends Wonder Man to the ground in a crater. It takes him time to recover. (Avengers Vol. 1 #313)
    • Scan 5) Takes down the Savage She Hulk Lyra (She-Hulks #4)
    • Scan 6-7) Blasts take Infamous Iron Man (Doom) offline temporarily (Infamous Iron Man #6)

These are all valid scans. But I already agreed that his blasts are powerful, and I agree that Julie has no protection in this era. (When she grows into her teens, she develops some kind of shielding and can tank a shot from Ultron’s disintegration beams.) She needs to rely on dodging here.

In terms of when Wizard blasted Doom (as the Infamous Iron Man): I agree that Wizard’s blast temporarily took Doom’s armor out. Wizard’s blasts are very powerful, and again that’s great for how they’ll power Katie up, even if he stops after a couple. But I want to clarify for the readers that this was a situation where Doom was distracted. Doom was fighting Wizard, and Doom suddenly saw a vision of a city caused by a future Tony Stark, the future Sorcerer Supreme. Wizard took his shot while Doom was transfixed. Wizard later admitted that this was a lucky shot, and would normally not beat him. And in a previous confrontation, Wizard yielded to Doom without a fight, saying he was not a fool. I know you weren’t making the case that Wizard could beat Doom in a straight fight, but I just want to be super-clear that this was a lucky shot.

Arclight isn’t that much of a different level of durability. I know what you're saying about the official power ratings, but at least from what I've found, all her power grid ratings are fan-based, not official. In general in Marvel, strength and durability go hand in hand. She’s a 50 tonner—so yes certainly below Thing and Wonder Man and Captain Marvel, but not bad. As I’ve already said, it may not be enough to batter through his force field directly, but it will be quite a whallop, and a big distraction from Katie’s attacks.

Not sure for Arclight, but Wizard’s durability is officially 6/7. But I must agree, even the official handbooks can be unreliable. So, if strength and durability go hand in hand then the Wizard is up there with the ones you mention that you consider above her.

    • Scan 1) A mere touch obliterates an anvil (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #78)
    • Scan 2) Rips a stone steeple apart and throws it like a missile (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #81)
    • Scan 3) Punches through machinery like nothing (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #78)
    • Scan 4) Staggers the Thing with momentum (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #129)
    • Scan 5) Matches strength with Thing and hurts him (Fantastic Four Unlimited #5)

I agree Wizard has great strength. But strength and durability are more linked in organic than inorganic characters. Regardless, we agree that his costume is cloth, so the armor vs cloth inconsistencies just are what they are. More on this below.

Typhoon sphere—I thought you might actually lead with this, it's a nice weapon. But as with the gravity disks, they can largely take care of it, although it does have the potential to cause some problems. Julie would get spun around, but could fly out eventually. Sure, she might smack against something in the process, but that’s not a sure thing, especially in an open space like we're in. And I feel like he hit Torch with a lucky shot; Julie can probably dodge a beam like that.

Julie would be tough to hit for sure, but if she were I don’t think simply flying out is an easy option. Also, we start in an open space, but undoubtedly this will take to the streets where NYC is filled with vehicles, statues, signs, people, etc. And while you say it was a lucky shot against the Torch, I say it was probably more of a surprise. If not completely on guard, Julie can be caught by surprise as well, especially if distracted by her teammates being harmed or the many other distractions I have posed.

I won’t really get into it with the others. They may or may not have answers for the attack, but at minimum they will have to work to escape it. That is plenty of time for more devastating follow-up attacks or for Wizard to focus on another team member.

I agree that it could cause some chaos for sure. But it’s more of a distraction than a weapon to win, and he has to hit them first for it to do anything.

Hitting most of the team wouldn’t be a problem. I could potentially hit multiple at once since they all pair or chain up as you’ve demonstrated.

Except, again, Julie is very maneuverable, and he’ll be distracted himself both by the fog in his eyes, and the attacks from multiple directions.

I would also like to bring another factor into the debate: civilians. Civilians will indubitably be in danger during this battle in a highly populated setting. Additionally, the Wizard could also purposefully put others in danger as a distraction. Being the heroes they are, they will of course put themselves in harm’s way or at minimum be distracted enough to give the Wizard more wiggle room or opening for an attack.

Protecting civilians could be a problem, but that’s true with many other villains that Power Pack has fought. And if Wizard concentrates on attacking civilians, he’ll be distracting himself from the fight as well, enabling some Pack members to get a free attack of opportunity on him (to get all D&D about it) while other Pack members help the civilians.

Can Katie absorb energy automatically? She went around accidentally absorbing/disintegrating physical stuff all the time when she first got her powers. She would get surprised, and disintegrate something in an instant before she could stop herself, like here and here. I think it is possible she could also absorb energy with very little warning. But, I agree it would probably not work if it was a complete surprise. Luckily, the Wizard’s gloves tend to glow when he uses them, as you noted, so that will give her advance warning unless it comes from the back.

Katie can absorb all kinds of energy, it doesn’t have to be focused. For instance, Jack uses that power here to absorb life energy from an Elan. Or when he absorbed fire. So it can be all sorts of forms of energy, focused and ambient, free in the environment and inherent in people or objects.

That still seems a little like it requires focus. I don’t think her not having control of her powers equates that she absorbs everything that touches her. Otherwise she would literally absorb everything in those scans.

Some things take more focus than others—very large masses, and unusual things like air. But for garden-variety stuff, like most matter and energy blasts, she can do it pretty instantaneously, either through choice, or sometimes by accident. But no, she doesn't constantly absorb everything, and probably couldn’t absorb something that took her completely by surprise.

The Non-causality pocket: At first I was worried about this, but reading the scan, he himself says the pocket allows anything that goes through to happen at equal chances. This means that there is an equal chance for a Power Ball to dissipate, or to hit him at double damage. That’s fine, we can roll the dice there, I like those odds.

While it has never been shown to adversely affect the Wizard, it seems to me that the pocket reflects attacks. It’s more like a mirror than a portal. I don’t disagree that it could simply dissipate the attack but I don’t think it would turn on him.

As Wizard says, "I've avoided using [it] because of its sheer unpredictability...Inside one, all variations of events are equally possible." If it's literally all variations of events, then that would include the Power Ball increasing in power as well as decreasing. The term "inside one" makes it sound much more like a portal than a mirror to me.

The ship is certainly a much greater weight than anything Wizard has ever lifted but it did take some work for Alex to do it. And all he really did was degravitize it. Wizard effortlessly degravitized the water tower and launched it with great speeds. Also, Alex has an ability feat while Wizard’s is a combat feat.

Alex has indeed degravitized the heavier object, but as I have said before, the Wizard’s power is anti-gravity. That’s no gravity. The weight of the object shouldn’t matter at all. Now while that in itself is a NLF, we are only talking about the weight of the Wizard himself being increased.

I think I see why we’re getting stuck here, it’s a term thing. Alex can make “no gravity,” that’s what he does when he makes things weightless. But he can also make things have “anti-gravity,” which is the opposite of gravity, a repulsive instead of attractive force. We see this more when he gets to be a teen, but it's at the basis of his flying ability even at this age. So I think they can both do both things.

But in either case, the strength of the effect does matter, because I’m sure they both have an upper mass limit to what they can give increased gravity, zero gravity, or anti-gravity. I’d guess they’re both less powerful than Graviton, for instance. For another example, neither Alex or Wizard could cancel the Earth’s gravitation effect on the Moon and make the Moon fly away. They’re just not that powerful.

I imagine this upper limit of mass would translate pretty directly to how well they could counter an opposing force from another gravity-affecting person.

So, in a battle of gravitic power between Alex and Wizard, the person who can affect gravity to a greater scale would win, whether they are trying to increase gravity, negate gravity, or oppose gravity. And Alex has higher-scale feats for affecting gravity than the Wizard. Wizard can try to make himself have anti-gravity and zip away, but Alex will counter that by creating super-gravity in him; the stronger of the two forces will win, and will suck Wizard down to the ground.

Actually, he could even force him down inside the ground. Here Katie uses the gravity power to stuff the enormous Star Stalker into the ground. This is again a pretty high-scale feat when you consider how much gravity it would take to force such a large mass through the resistance of the earth.

Also, doesn’t Alex have to have contact with Wizard for this? There has to be a dozen things I’ve covered so far that are huge problems for Alex up close, from electrocution to typhoon spheres to the neural disruptor to the simple matter of a massive strength advantage.

Alex does have to have contact (or chained contact through Katie). Again, this would be in tandem with Katie, who would be disintegrating the Wizard’s opportunities to do these things. If he’s got smoke and rainbows in his eyes, and Julie drops them off quickly on his back, and Katie starts disintegrating his tech pretty much as quickly as she can touch it, while at the same time Alex is forcing them down to the ground, the Wizard is not going to have a lot of time to react. Katie will be disintegrating the very tech he would be using to try to counter-attack, while he’d also have to put his focus into resisting Alex.

While mild compared to a true telepath, the Wizard can hypnotize and control those within his immediate vicinity with some effort. This is not to be confused with his earlier Id Machine which was an actual external device. He has since equipped his helmet with the technology. It’s possible to break free of this control with some coaxing, but it is certainly enough to stop Katie from her assault or control the one who flew her there to attack her for him.

    • Scans 1-3) Controls Spider-Man to attack the Human Torch (Marvel Team-Up #2)
    • Scans 4-5) Controls Medusa (FF Vol. 2 #7)
    • Scans 6-8) Controls Prison Guards (Superior Carnage #1)

Another option is casting illusions. Again, this only works in close proximity but it should be more than enough to get any of the team off of him. If you read the scans you’ll see that neither instance was specifically prepped, as Spider-Man and the FF both came unexpectedly to thwart him.

    • Scans 1-2) Creates a virtual landscape for Spider-Man (Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 2 #1)
    • Scans 3-4) Makes the Fantastic Four think they cannot use their powers (Fantastic Four Vol. 3 #29)

For context, Spider-Man was put into a virtual landscape and he was even aware that it wasn’t real, but still had no idea he was sitting in a chair tied up. The FF were made to believe they had no powers but Tony Stark (in Doom’s armor) saw through it and was able to convince his teammates that it was an illusion.

The mind control and illusion powers seem good—but there are some real weaknesses there.

In all the examples you gave of his mind control—Spider-man, Medusa, and the guards—the first time he controls their mind is not shown on panel. In each situation, in fact, it seems like he probably managed to come upon them unawares before mind-controlling them. In the comic, Spider-man was seen swinging by unawares when Wizard mentioned trying to control him. Who knows how Wizard managed to do it. Medusa was under his control for a long time, but again the comic doesn’t show us at all when he first controlled her—we have no idea. Presumably coming upon her when she wasn’t expecting it. (She even later says it was because he exploited a “psychic weakness” in her.) And again finally with the guards, we don’t see when he first controls them. The series just starts with them being controlled. I can't even really show scans of any of this because the moment of establishing control is never shown in any of them, there's nothing for me to show.

Actually the best example we have of him trying to first gain mind-control on someone is with Karl Malus (now infected with the symbiote) in the same Superior Carnage storyline, where Wizard controls Malus’s mind. In this instance, it clearly takes some effort and time for him to control Malus. While this was probably affected to some degree by the presence of the symbiote, I don’t think Wizard will have the kind of time and concentration he will need to control minds in this fight.

Another example of how his mind control probably has some limits comes in the issue you showed where he made the FF believe their powers didn’t work. Here, he was trying to interrogate the Wingfoots and resorted to threats instead of just using mind control to make them answer.

His illusion powers are also not as useful as they seemed in your description. When he used the illusions on Spider-man, that was a result of both prep AND of having a physical virtual reality chamber. As can be seen here (these are just a smattering of the pages from this lengthy story) this was part of a larger plan, and the illusions were created in a specific chamber, including the seats that held them there. So he was in no way able to create these illusions through just his suit, or without prep.

The second example, with the Fantastic Four, is also a clear example of prep, as he specifically states in your scan: “Do you really think I would not have prepared for such a contingency?” So again, it is not be something he could use in this situation.

Overall, I’ve shown here that Wizard’s mind control is almost always effected off-panel, where I believe he probably took people unawares and had more time and concentration than he would have in this battle. So he will not have a chance to use mind control in the heat of battle while being attacked from multiple directions. I have also shown that your examples of illusion powers have been under conditions of prep and/or exterior equipment, so he won’t use those powers either. Thus, his potentially two most dangerous abilities are not a concern in this battle.

So Katie can reach for the helmet and get it with the gloves or reach for the gloves and get it with the helmet. Potentially either could happen before she gets through the force field which unlike Cannonball, is continually powered by Wizard’s gloves.

Cannonball is continually powered by his mutant power. And I’d guess Cannonball’s total power reserve is greater than the Wizard’s force field power reserve, since again Cannonball has to use it for both blastin’ and being nigh-invulnerable. That’s just more power to drain than the simple force field.

But Wizard does have one energy blast she can’t absorb that takes her out of the fight completely (besides the Pain Gun). Feast your eyes on the temporal loop. (Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #515)

Once he figures out her power he would probably bait her with this. Even if she could absorb the first blast, the secondary blast will put her in a loop and she’s out of the game.

OK, I agree that that is probably something she can’t absorb. Like the pain gun, it’s a pretty random power that he rarely uses, I am guessing he is unlikely to use it very quickly within the battle. I will certainly agree that Wizard would win some battles out of 10, and I’d argue that the battles he wins would be the ones where he uses powers like this. But when fighting in character, I think he’d start with the energy blasts and gravity disks, and the Pack can get around those quickly enough to win the majority.

So as I said and as you figured out, his suit is mostly just clothes. Now, with that being said, he has still taken some extreme hits from many superheroes. I’ve shown scans of him being smashed through brick and walls as well. It’s not very consistent, but it must be padded in some way to protect him from things like that.

I don’t think a few hits to the body is a game changer. And yes, the force field isn’t on all the time and he will take a few hits, but he can take them. The force field will most likely be up for Katie’s Power Balls since he tends to use them against energy attacks as opposed to melee.

I’d like to tackle the question of Wizard’s durability a bit more. We’ve seen him take punches in the head from the likes of Wonder Man and the Thing, and also get KOd by Carol Danvers (which is by no means a poor feat). I’ve discussed how Jack, in his mini form, could hammer him in the face where his helmet doesn’t cover. His uniform has stood up to getting hit against walls and with strong impacts, but on the other hand has been susceptible to being pierced by pretty standard dart guns and being kicked in the balls. So, there are some inconsistencies here, I think we agree. I want to add a bit more to these inconsistencies.

You showed Carnage punching the Wizard. I want to note that in first of these attacks, the Wizard does survive the blows, but Carnage knocks his helmet off. Then in a later attack, he knocks it off again. I just want to point out that his helmet can get knocked off, which would be a potential side-effect of Jack Hammering him in the face. (Later we see that Carnage had damaged the helmet.) And not only does that render him more vulnerable, he loses the ability to control some of his tech.

There is also this instance of Scott Lang punching the Wizard out by simply punching him in the face while he is wearing the helmet. Again, just a proof of concept that Jack can certainly target him in this unprotected area, and knock him out, since his Jack Hammer packs more power than Scott’s non-enhanced punches (this is before he learned to use the Pym Particles to enhance his strength). I don't think this PIS, he's just punching him where he's unprotected.

Also, looking at that scan you showed where Wizard created a gravity-disk cage, Deadpool proceeds immediately after to punch him in the face repeatedly, taking him out, and as we see later breaking his nose. So again, just proof of concept that punching him in the face is a proven method to knock him out (all three examples—Carnage, Lang, Deadpool—are also more examples that he doesn’t always use his force field).

Looking at his suit’s durability, we see Superior Spider-man crushing his Wonder Gloves. Superior Spidey is obviously a multi-tonner, the point here being just that he is well below Wonder Man but he can still ruin Wizard's tech without great effort.

We also see classic Spider-man knocking Wizard out by throwing Trapster at him.

The point of all this is that the Wizard’s durability is inconsistent across all eras, and (discounting his force field) there are plenty of examples that put him well within Power Pack’s capability of knocking him out, either through Jack’s Hammer, Alex’s super-G punch (although I agree he is unlikely to get a chance to get close enough to use it) or throwing cars at him, or Katie’s Power Balls or direct disintegration.

Conclusion

    • It still stands: the Wizard is the king of distraction. Assault disks, typhoon spheres, mind control, illusions and a myriad of others.
    • Getting close to the Wizard is more dangerous than keeping distance.
    • The Wizard has incredible speed and durability as well as a massive strength advantage.
    • The Wizard’s gravity powers are more versatile and combat useful than Alex’s.
    • The Power Pack will have to be concerned for each other as well as civilians.
    • The Wizard has half a dozen ways to defeat each member of your team.

The Wizard has a lot of options, but so does Power Pack, and their ability to attack from multiple directions using teamwork gives them the edge. The Wizard will have his hands full more than the reverse: he’ll have to deal with Power Balls, thrown cars, being blinded, getting Hammered in the face or crotch, having his gear destroyed from the inside by Jack, and having his gear disintegrated by Katie while being dragged down to the ground by Alex.

I’m not too concerned by Wizard’s close-quarters attacks because if Katie and Alex close in, Wizard will be distracted by Jack’s fog, and won’t be able to easily handle the speed with which they can rob him of his tech. I do agree that Alex is unlikely to just come up and Super-G punch him.

The Wizard’s physical strength won’t come into play, and the Pack has ways of dealing with his speed (due to Julie’s greater maneuverability and similar speed, and Alex’s increase of his gravity), and his durability (due to Katie’s massive power balls and disintegration, his unprotected face, the forcefield that Jack can seep through, and the fact that his helmet to some degree, and his costume to a much greater degree, have inconsistent durability).

Wizard’s gravity powers are more versatile, but Alex’s powers are stronger, and that matters for how he’s going to use them. The Pack will mostly be able to avoid Wizard’s gravity powers.

The Pack has a half-dozen ways to avoid all of Wizard’s attacks due to Julie’s maneuverability, Jack’s fog form, Katie’s energy absorption, Katie’s disintegration, Alex’s ability to counteract Wizard’s gravity powers, and Jack’s density fields.

The Sort-of-Succinct Strategy Summarization:

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  • Jack can seep through his force field and fog his goggles, rendering Wizard semi-blind and unable to effectively attack or defend, and Wizard won't be able to get away from it.
  • Jack can also turn to his Jack Hammer form, too quickly for Wizard to counteract, and knock him out by a hit to the face, as several others have been able to do. Or, he can air-bubble-blast him in the face with the same effect.
  • Jack can also seep into his helmet and mess up his gear from the inside, physically or with the air bubble blast. We’ve seen that the scale of the tech is the right size to pull apart.
  • Finally, Jack can protect the others with his density fields. I agree he can’t do a million things at once, but he could certainly do the density fields while blinding Wizard in fog form.
  • Meanwhile, the Wizard will be largely unable to affect Jack at all, so Jack is basically acting at will.
  • Katie can blast away at his force field and armor with her Power Balls while he’s blinded; we agree that they can destroy the field and armor at their higher levels. She can gain energy from a variety of local sources.
  • Alex can throw cars at him, distracting him.
  • Julie can help blind him with rainbow trails, but more so she can carry Alex and Katie around, providing Katie with better aim, and also by putting them on his back, where Katie can quickly absorb his force field and disintegrate his tech, while Alex forces him to the ground.
  • They can use their variety of powers to avoid, destroy, or counteract the disks and absorb his main energy blasts, avoid or counter his typhoon sphere. His mind control and illusion powers will be of no use due to a lack of time and concentration, and a lack of prep. His causality-field would help them as much as hurt them; his kinetic stabilizer won’t do anything. His pain gun, time loop, and wave of a hand gravity powers are unlikely to be used early on in the fight until the Pack already have the advantage.
  • If they are hurt but not knocked out, they can heal themselves, although this would take some concentration.
  • Even if a Pack member is taken out, there are still others to keep fighting, with plenty of redundancy in the strategies.
  • Overall, the Pack can neutralize his offenses, and can penetrate his defenses, more often than the reverse.

I don't have any new feats or strategies to add after this. You can respond to this as you like, and I suppose it's possible that I'd have some responses back to that. But generally speaking I feel like I've said what I need to say, and future posts would largely be rehashing my existing arguments.

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#33 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

Clarifications

Mind Control

While it is true we don't get to see how he gained control of Spider-Man or Medusa, we do see him do it to Malus as you showed. It does take concentration (I do believe I said that) and the symbiote may have hampered that further. If we really want to think too hard about it, he really only could have gained control of those guards while in the prison because the jig would have been up when they checked in for work. He's broken out of the Vault, so chances are he can break in (and has broken into FF HQ numerous times).

Another example of how his mind control probably has some limits comes in the issue you showed where he made the FF believe their powers didn’t work. Here, he was trying to interrogate the Wingfoots and resorted to threats instead of just using mind control to make them answer.

Aside from the obvious answer that is plot, it can be speculated he might not have had the ability at the time or that it was just his standard hubris and theatrics. Over time we have seen his power go from the massive, clunky Id Machine that required catching his foes to a version in his helmet. The latest was the Superior Carnage instance and it was advanced compared to all previous versions, showing that he could control multiple people and read their thoughts.

Illusions

His illusion powers are also not as useful as they seemed in your description. When he used the illusions on Spider-man, that was a result of both prep AND of having a physical virtual reality chamber. As can be seen here (these are just a smattering of the pages from this lengthy story) this was part of a larger plan, and the illusions were created in a specific chamber, including the seats that held them there. So he was in no way able to create these illusions through just his suit, or without prep.

To my understanding, they were still in a regular warehouse. The structure he had created was his dimensional matrix to harness the power of the Negative Zone. He used his illusions to make sure it was safe for himself to enter (which he eventually did and faced them in the illusion landscape) and Trapster (who was in the same room) was not part of the illusion.

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The second example, with the Fantastic Four, is also a clear example of prep, as he specifically states in your scan: “Do you really think I would not have prepared for such a contingency?” So again, it is not be something he could use in this situation.

Wizard was not expecting the Fantastic Four to show up. He was in Silver Rock Springs, Oklahoma. It's just something he had up his sleeve just in case (i.e. contingency plan). There's a difference between being prepared and prepping. If anything, this instance shows he would have this ability ready at any time, specifically since our scenario involves him going to take on the FF.

The Armor

Mentioned in my first post but never shown, the armor is remotely available. Knocking off the helmet would be a temporary thing.

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I won't delve into it, but sometimes his armor is shown as actual armor and sometimes more of a padded suit.

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#34 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: I did my best to clarify a few things without biting on the pesky urge to counter. Obviously, I could keep going forever and might even like to, but I'm not here to convince you, I'm here to convince the voters and I think I've given them enough to read!

I'm ready to open for votes when you are.

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#35 Posted by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

Illusions

His illusion powers are also not as useful as they seemed in your description. When he used the illusions on Spider-man, that was a result of both prep AND of having a physical virtual reality chamber. As can be seen here (these are just a smattering of the pages from this lengthy story) this was part of a larger plan, and the illusions were created in a specific chamber, including the seats that held them there. So he was in no way able to create these illusions through just his suit, or without prep.

To my understanding, they were still in a regular warehouse. The structure he had created was his dimensional matrix to harness the power of the Negative Zone. He used his illusions to make sure it was safe for himself to enter (which he eventually did and faced them in the illusion landscape) and Trapster (who was in the same room) was not part of the illusion.

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The only thing I want to push back on a bit is this thing with the illusions in the warehouse. I totally agree it was a warehouse, but it seems pretty obvious to me that it was part of a long-made plan involving the senator that involved equipment outside of his armor--thus the remote control thing, which clearly is not just part of his armor. As you know, it's part of a "dimensional matrix" that can create a portal to the Negative Zone, and also apparently can make illusions to make things "safe for the human body and mind." At least the way I take it, the dimensional thing and the illusions are all part of the same equipment. Anyway, I put the rest of the pages from the story into my original link, and readers can make up their own minds. Like you said, I think we've given them plenty to read!

I'm ready to open for votes too. Thanks for making my first dip into the CaV waters a very enjoyable one! I had a great time with this.

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#36 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by Wyldsong (9577 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump me tomorrow, will read and vote

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#38 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

Bump me tomorrow, will read and vote

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#39 Posted by Wyldsong (9577 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart: Trying to read now, vote will be dropped tonight or tomorrow morning=)

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#40 Posted by Wyldsong (9577 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: @jloneblackheart: Alright guys, I truly do hope that the voters show up and read this. While some of the posts were lengthy, overall, this was a great CaV. This was probably one of the most respectful CaVs between two debaters I have ever seen on these forums as well. That being said, I don't really have any major critiques for either of you in this debate...@owie, I've always found you to be reasonable and knowledgeable as a debater. You put in a good amount of research in your debates, and it shows. I felt like your Power Pack knowledge was superb, and you had a decent handle on some Wizard intel as well.

@jloneblackheart, you showed a fantastic amount of knowledge on the Wizard, and I think you proved him to be much more of a threat than I initially thought he would be. I haven't read many of your debates prior to this, but I think you handled yourself well here, and you laid out some well thought out responses/counterpoints.

Like I said, it is really hard to find something to critique each of you on in this. You each had a fantastic performance here, and I really hate picking a winner, but I won't pull the cop out move of calling it a tie. While I agree that Wizard has a mind-boggling array of tech that would make this a difficult fight, I found myself siding with the Power Pack's abilities and team work, with them being able to pull the win in the end. So with that said, @owie gets my vote. This was not an easy one to pick, and I do so with a heavy heart, because you both impressed me in this one.

Good work both of you!

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#41 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: You're awesome. Thanks for voting!

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#42 Edited by Wyldsong (9577 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart: It was a darn good read my friend, and you both did a phenomenal job with your debates=)

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#43 Posted by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: thanks very much! I appreciate your vote and analysis.

@jloneblackheart shall we do some more callouts for votes? I think there are at least a few more people I can think of that might be interested.

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#44 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: Sure. Call out anyone you can think of. The more the merrier.

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#45 Posted by Owie (7103 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: @jloneblackheart:I will give this a read for sure. Love obscure and rarely seen characters.

Same here. Tag me again to remind me so I don't forget. :)

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#48 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

That was way longer than I like. I hate walls of text myself, my current CaV with Jasro being kinda like that and hard to bear. That said, I did started skimming after the end of second posts, and in the end, I felt one thing was consistent more and more as the arguments dragged on. Wizard is so damn versatile. For every move the kids had or able to deal out, the Wizard had multiple counters to it. In the end, I give the win to Jloneblackheart for that reason alone more than anything. Owen argued his heart out, but Jlone just had so many similar feats as good, and feats of abilities that the kids never encountered before.

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#49 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9111 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Thanks for taking the time to read and vote!

While I don't mind doing the long posts, I understand it can be rough on voters. In my most recent debate I learned that going counter for counter isn't always necessary as long as I cover the main points.

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#50 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Thanks for taking the time to read and vote!

While I don't mind doing the long posts, I understand it can be rough on voters. In my most recent debate I learned that going counter for counter isn't always necessary as long as I cover the main points.

Some people LOVE long post. Wall of Text. Its very divisive at times on Comicvine.