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#1 Edited by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio

Piccolo - Represented by: @amendment50

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Thor - Represented by:@New_World_Order

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Battle Information:

  • This is Buu Saga/EOS Piccolo
  • Thor representation of Thor will be pulled from what he's accomplished up to 2005, not beyond that.
  • Standard Gear
  • In-character
  • Morals off
  • Fight to the death
  • No preparation
  • Random encounter

Location: Planet Namek

  • Planet is indestructible
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Voters:

  • Please refrain from posting your opinion on the match until it's done.
  • Ask to be tagged if you wished to be tagged for voting.
  • Don't vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who had the better arguments.
  • When giving your vote, give an explanation on why you think the person won.
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#2 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Amendment50 (9798 posts) - - Show Bio

@newworldorder: Looks good. I'll copy+paste my opener and then tag the people from the old thread.

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#4 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4504 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#5 Edited by Amendment50 (9798 posts) - - Show Bio

Here is a repost of my opener from the original thread:

Loading Video...

Piccolo:

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This is the first Dragon Ball vs. Comic CaV I've ever done, actually. Here goes!

Biography:

Meet Piccolo, the last remaining holdout for useful non-Saiyans in Dragon Ball who was only really made redundant towards the end. He's got enough power in one hand to vaporize a planet and the fighting chops to hang with Goku himself. The man was wiping out cities before he hit four years old!

Originally born as the clone/child/mutant thing of the Demon King Piccolo, Piccolo (Jr.) was a monstrous villain hell-bent on revenge for his father's defeat at Goku's hands. After a little bit of good old fashioned child rearing, though, Piccolo turned fully heel to face and ended up one of the most valuable heroes on Earth, fighting again and again against the opposing threats.

...Again, until Buu, that is.

Piccolo is probably the most versatile Z-fighter, with his Namekian biology making him extremely resilient and his cunning making him a trickier foe than some of his Saiyan allies.

Strength and Damage Output:

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Power! It's where Dragon Ball characters really shine. Thor no doubt has some great striking power and blast power, but rest assured Piccolo will have absolutely no trouble competing where raw damage output is concerned.

So, let's start with the fun stuff!

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A much, much weaker iteration of Piccolo was able to vaporize the moon with a single blast, being left only winded afterwards.

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This very same moon-vaporizing attack was completely no-sold by Raditz...

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And yet after only a year of training Piccolo was powerful enough to two-shot an opponent directly stated to be Raditz's equivalent.

Later, after a new powerup, Piccolo was strong enough to fight totally on par with Frieza...

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...who has enough power to planet bust in his first form...

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...in his second form.

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He was even able to reel Frieza back in his final form with a sneak attack, at which point Frieza was forcing Goku to use the 20x Kaio-ken multiplier just to keep up with him.

But Piccolo's true power doesn't really shine through until he fuses with Kami...

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Note how Android #16 points out that one of the powers between Piccolo and Cell is equal to 17. That power would have to be Piccolo, which is proven by their own fight later on.

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Thus, Piccolo is both stated and proven to be more powerful than Imperfect Cell during his first appearance. At this point in time, even at his weakest point, Cell is still stronger than any Super Saiyan. He has both King Cold's and Frieza's DNA, someone proven to be capable of surviving the explosion of an entire planet.

And yet, Piccolo is powerful enough to knock him across a city with a blast, fast enough to blitz, and strong enough to stagger him with punches.

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Piccolo has enough power to ragdoll Android #17 with his bare fists, enough to do significant damage and even fight him on equal terms.

How durable is Android #17, then, exactly?

Well, to put it in no uncertain terms...

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This is what a sword strike and an energy blast from a relatively casual Super Saiyan Trunks can do to Frieza.

Frieza, who survived this:

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...Meanwhile.

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This is what a sword strike and an energy blast from an enraged Super Saiyan Trunks can do to #17 and his near-equal #18.

Blasts that are by necessity more powerful than Namek's explosion cannot even make #17 flinch, and yet, the result of Piccolo's blasts?

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Visible damage is done.

Unfortunately, this fight against #17 is Piccolo's last real chance to shine in Dragon Ball through Z, since he never finds the opportunity to fight someone on equal terms again.

That said, this is not the limit of Piccolo's power, and he is noted to become stronger a couple times later on, having trained once in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and also during the time skip before the Great Saiyaman saga (though it is clearly established that Piccolo never surpasses the level of Perfect Cell):

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Based on Piccolo's previous levels of power increase, though (I already showed his improvement during the Saiyan saga in only one year, for instance), I think it would be unreasonable to suggest that Piccolo is not at least powerful enough to definitively beat #17 by the conclusion of Dragon Ball.

Either way, even if you don't buy that, I think I have done more than enough to prove that Piccolo is casually planet level through his blasts, and also that his physical strikes can do damage to foes on the same level, even if they don't have the same destructive impact.

Piccolo can hilariously fodderize even the likes of Super Saiyans and Frieza. No doubt his power is sufficient to challenge Thor.

Durability and Regeneration:

As a Namekian, Piccolo can withstand and regenerate from even very severe damage to his body mid-fight, and has been shown time and time again to be able to take a serious beating without dying.

A lot of Piccolo's showings of strength can serve as showing of durability- being able to take blows from Raditz, Frieza, even Android #17, who was strong enough to KO Super Saiyan Trunks with a single blow.

So here I will focus more on pure showings of pain tolerance, endurance, and resistance. For instance:

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Piccolo withstands a barrage of energy blasts from third form Frieza and afterward is not only still conscious but still powerful enough to deflect one of his enraged energy blasts.

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Piccolo survives having his neck broken and being blasted straight through the chest after a beating.

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Piccolo survives being straight-up shot through the heart.

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Piccolo withstands... this... without it even being able to keep him down for ten whole seconds.

Piccolo is extremely resilient and has great showings against opponents that are equal to or stronger than him. Even if he is weaker, sometimes significantly, he repeatedly shows the capacity to keep fighting with sustained damage and survive attacks that should be lethal.

Another thing that gives Piccolo a huge edge in this fight is his ability to regenerate from bodily damage, which is actually really strong. One thing not everyone realizes is that as Piccolo becomes more powerful in DB, so too does his regeneration become more efficient. The growth is clear throughout each of Piccolo's instances of regeneration.

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Early on, Piccolo is able to regenerate his broken arm, but at the cost of a great deal of pain and energy.

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In the Saiyan saga: Piccolo regrows an arm after having it blasted off by Raditz. This time, it doesn't seem to weaken him, but at the cost of the regeneration requiring the entire duration of the fight for him to accomplish.

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...But by the Cell saga, Piccolo is able to rip his arm off and instantly regenerate a new one. The kinks of the technique have been worked out.

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By the Buu saga, Piccolo's regeneration is so strong that he his able to recover his entire body almost instantly after having it completely destroyed.

His incredible durability and resistance to damage combined with an extremely powerful healing factor would be enough to give Piccolo an undisputed win even if every other factor were completely equal here. Even if Piccolo finds himself at a disadvantage in some other area, the ability to recover from damage mitigates it greatly.

Speed:

This is one of the hardest areas to quantify for Piccolo, as with any DBZ character, really. Save for some ridiculous cherrypicking or dumb fancalcs, it's hard to say exactly how fast anyone is beyond "really damned fast". But let's go with what we do know, and what makes the most sense. Given Thor's relatively unimpressive reaction speed, Piccolo should be more than fast enough to completely and utterly outclass him in this area.

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As with any Z-fighter, Piccolo can sense life energy (ki) and use it to perceive enemies in fights, even when he can't see them directly. Regardless, this allows him to effortlessly perceive opponents that are moving literally imperceptibly fast- almost certainly at hypersonic speeds or greater.

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Piccolo evades a Kamehameha wave from Cell at point-blank range. This is despite being caught off-guard- and this is a difficult test of speed even for much faster characters in Dragon Ball:

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Here Perfect Cell is unable to dodge a Kamehameha at point-blank range due to being caught off-guard under very similar circumstances. You can argue that Goku's Kamehameha was much more powerful than Imperfect Cell's was, but it doesn't matter because Perfect Cell outclasses Goku here much more significantly than Piccolo did Cell during their fight. The power gap is comparable, so the feats should be comparable as well.

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Piccolo is the only one to react in time to evade Majin Buu's enraged blast.

Though the speed that this blast came out at cannot really accurately be gauged, we can assume it is impressive on two grounds. A. It was the result of Buu becoming enraged, and thus not holding back, and B. Vegeta and Supreme Kai were unable to avoid it in time due to being at the epicenter of the blast. Even despite their difference in proximity, Vegeta at this point outclasses Piccolo so heavily that the fact that Piccolo has the speed to get out of the way of the blast is impressive enough on its own.

In other words, Piccolo has unusually strong reaction speeds even for one of the Z-fighters.

At the end of the day, speed is hard to quantify for DB characters.

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Goku allegedly learned to move faster than lightning even before the Saiyan saga...

...and yet Piccolo outclasses his speed from that period a hundred or a thousand times over.

We have ridiculous feats of speed even early on for comparison, like Krillin and Roshi's entire fight over the course of an instant or a crippled Goku reappearing at skyscrapers' height in the air without anybody perceiving him having moved in the first place. We know that Piccolo was imperceptibly fast to begin with and increased his speed over and over again over the course of the series, and we know that Dragon Ball well establishes that characters' ability to perceive fighters at high speeds increases alongside their own speed.

But how fast did he exactly become? We really cannot gauge it. I'm not going to apply some kind of faulty logic to try and claim that Piccolo is MFTL, yada yada. I just want to make it crystal-clear that Piccolo has superhuman speed to an incredible degree, and Thor is going to have to be able to contend with someone who can perceive, move, fight, react and dodge to attacks within that frame of time.

And a few miscellaneous notes

Before I wrap up this somewhat overly-long intro, I want to make a few notes on Piccolo's unusual versatility that will make him a tricky opponent.

Piccolo has a few rarely-used moves that he is wont to pull out in a pinch.

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He can stretch his arms Plastic Man-style for a boost in melee range.

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He can increase his size, and proportionally his strength, even without sacrificing his speed.

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His signature attack, the Special Beam Cannon, can concentrate all of his energy into a specific attack. This means that this single attack can hit above Piccolo's usual paygrade, shown in the ability to kill Raditz in one shot despite Raditz's current level being two or three times that of Piccolo's during that fight.

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And he has shown that he is not above bluffing in a fight to gain a tactical advantage.

Piccolo is repeatedly emphasized as an intelligent and cunning fighter, even being absorbed by Buu specifically for his brains rather than his power. His range of abilities and techniques, unique physiology and good old-fashioned fighting skill make him a fighter easily capable of hanging with someone of Thor's caliber.

Gameplan:

As of now, I have yet to see exactly what your iteration of Thor is bringing to the table.

Based on my own showings though, I'll start by saying this: Piccolo can hang with Thor in a face-off. His speed will allow him to outmaneuver his opponent, his strikes will do serious damage and his energy blasts will pack more of a punch than most foes that have given Thor trouble in the past.

His durability and regeneration will provide a hefty safeguard against any damage he may take should any attacks take him off-guard. If he gets into a dangerous situation, he still has enough tricks up his sleeve to pull of a win.

In this fight, Thor is in for a lot more than he's bargained for.

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@New_World_Order: And that's all for my opener; I hope it wasn't too long-winded! I'm looking forward to getting this debate underway and seeing what Thor has to offer. Good luck to you, and may the best man win!

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#6 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio

@newworldorder: Looks good. I'll copy+paste my opener and then tag the people from the old thread.

Sounds good, I should have an opener up soon.

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#7 Posted by DeathHero61 (13487 posts) - - Show Bio

You already know to tag me.

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#9 Posted by haoalchemist (5709 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v hehe

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#10 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (6856 posts) - - Show Bio

It's lit

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#11 Posted by jaycool2 (6940 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#12 Posted by EmperorThanos (9300 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v again

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#13 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (8133 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V!

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#14 Posted by destinyman75 (6227 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#15 Posted by TheMuser (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V again

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#16 Posted by blackpantherisb (2175 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#17 Posted by lvenger (31205 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#18 Posted by NormanBates (1465 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#19 Posted by EmperorThanos (9300 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#20 Edited by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor Odinson

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Lord of the storms, prince of Asgard, son of Odin, and the mightiest Avenger. Thor goes by many titles, but none of them are enough to ever truly show his character. Being one of the most powerful characters the Marvel universe ever known is a status he's always and forever will have, with or without the hammer of Mjolnir in his hand.

Powers

Thor is born of divine heritage. His father being the god of all Norse gods and his mother being the elder god of the earth. He was essentially born into power and has displayed feats on levels that make most heroes or villains look incomparable. Many heroes have complimented Thor's great power, from gods to aliens, from demons to mortals, they all seem him the same. Even Captain America, the greatest Avenger of all time has regarded Thor as the most powerful of anyone on the Avengers roster in Avengers Vol.2 #2. Keep in mind that he's had characters like Hercules, Sersi, Hulk, among others on his the Avengers.

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Enough of that, getting into the abilities that Thor possesses without Mjolnir is quite easy. A lot of his more exotic abilities stem from the hammer itself, though he's still packing a lot on his lonesome. Those abilities would be-

  • Superhuman strength
  • Invulnerability
  • Superhuman speed
  • Superhuman stamina
  • Weather manipulation
  • Earth manipulation
  • Manipulate godly energy

More info on Thor.

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Now, getting into the abilities he gains when utilizing Mjolnir is what makes him truly versatile. Thor gains plenty of abilities that can come in handy when facing an opponent like Piccolo.

  • Flight
  • Energy projection
  • Energy absorption
  • God Blast
  • Tracking
  • Opening portals

Here is additional info on Mjolnir.

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As you can see, Thor could be quite the swiss army knife if he were to truly use these abilities in conjunction with each other, however, luckily for you, he doesn't. He's still a huge threat not doing so, which I'll get into.

Striking

I see you really laid down the foundation for your characters stats and abilities, so I'll try to do the same thing for Thor in my opening post so you can get the same. I don't think I want to counter your opener as it's nothing more than an opener, so I'll just try and one-up your stat feats by presenting mine. Let's start with the striking power Thor harnesses without the use of Mjolnir. I always like to start by showing a feat without Mjolnir because there is constantly the discussion that Mjolnir makes Thor strong or his opponent will make him lose his hammer so he won't be as effective. This showing from The Mighty Thor Vol.2 #7 should put that to rest. In a retelling of Thor's past adventures, we get a story of how Loki made Viking name Bodolf have the power of a God, capable of fighting Thor. This Viking would go on to beat Thor, but the Odinson would eventually come back and take back his win after a minor scuffle and beer and woman (young Thor was like that). Thor actually punches Bodolf with enough force to send him through the earth and come out the next side. The scan says moments later which can even indicate that Thor even struck him with enough force to not only send him through the planet, but also at high speeds. Remember to keep in mind that this was a young Thor who hadn't even obtained Mjolnir yet, so this is a very impressive showing.

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This isn't all, though, because when Thor strikes with Mjolnir, his striking power is actually heightened to a much higher degree where he can strike with enough force to crack planets apart while hitting the god butcher Gorr. The blows were still powerful enough to also harm planet's away as well. Thor: God Of Thunder #9

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I'm aware the biggest issue in this debate is getting people to see how Thor can actually tag Piccolo, however, I don't see that as a huge issue personally. Thor isn't the fastest of characters, but he still gets the job done. He has a way of striking down fleeter characters by drawing them in with an attack and then sending one back which is mightier to send them off balance. I can show you there examples to show consistency as that's what is regarded as consistency on Comicvine.

Thor Vol.2 #35 - Gladiator blitzes Thor into the earth in which Thor easily tanks the assault and then takes his counter shot by blasting Gladiator back out through the hole in the earth with a blast of energy.

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Avengers Vol.2 #5 - Hyperion blitzes Thor in which he evidently takes the initial blitz and releases a powerful strike back which seemingly does much more damage.

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Siege #1 - Thor goes to take out Norman Osborn, in which Sentry catches Thor off-guard and blitzes him into the ground. The Sentry is ready to continue his assault, but Thor strikes him away before he gets the chance to.

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As for the energy blasts Piccolo possesses, I don't see them being the biggest issue as Thor has never had any issue of batting away laser fire or things of this magnitude. For example, in Avengers Vol.2 #23, he was casually knocking away projectiles and laser fire.

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He's repealed Count Nefaria's ionic vision by spinning Mjolnir and essentially creating a barrier. This can be used to block large blasts or ki blasts for that matter. Avengers Vol.1 #166

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Durability

I don't think Piccolo is going to do much harm to Thor physically. In fact, I think most of his damage is going to come from energy projection because Thor is an absolute tank and should be more than capable of taking his physical punishment. Also, Dragon Ball Z characters usually are much more powerful energy wise compared to their actual physicals, which is, of course, the case here as well. I showed above Thor can take a blow and deliver one back showing his durability, however, a showing that should show Piccolo isn't going to do much with his blows, even in rapid succession, is a feat from where Thor takes a continuous barrage of blows from Classic Drax and Hulk in Infinity War.

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He's also done something similar with the Scarlet Witch. In Uncanny Avengers Vol.1 #4 where Thor is mind controlled by the Red Skull and his men to go up against the other Avengers, in which he does. In this particular instance, he goes up against Scarlet Witch who is then assisted by Havok in taking down Thor, which they find themselves completely unable to do. After throwing everything they have it him, he powers through it and Wanda has to proceed to an alternate route to take him down. She taps into the power of Chaos energy (you know the energy Chthon the Elder God is the master of) and proceeds to blast Thor into the sky and away from the battle, because well that's all she could hope to do. This attack also didn't seem to have a lot of effect on him other than sending him away as he came back afterward pretty much unscathed.

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In The Mighty Thor Vol. 1 #5, Thor and Silver Surfer get into abigger scuffle in which an angered Surfer blasts Thor with a blast of cosmic energy. The blast actually doesn't do all that much, in fact, Thor seems relatively unharmed. He then proceeds to toss Mjolnir at Surfer which sends him hurling away.

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Also, just in-case you didn't know, that rainbow gash on Thor's body isn't for show, it's actually an injury he obtained in issue 1. He obtained this when he tried to retrieve the World Seed from the World Tree, and the tree reacted defensively, slicing across his side.

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Keep in mind, just so you can understand this injury has been a pain issue for Thor even since issue 1, take a look at his response when Surfer asks him about the injury.

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Other abilities

This part is going to be relatively small, as I really wanted to focus on the above points for my opener. That being said, there were some things I wanted to get into. For starters, I wanted to state that Thor has the potential to absorb the energy from Piccolo's energy blasts or Piccolo himself. Thor doesn't result to these tactics unless his opponents are energy based, so it's possible he won't drain him from within, but it's likely he'll absorb his energy blasts and send them right back at Piccolo who I don't see stopping the attack once he does. I don't think I need to show Thor absorbing energy but it's pretty clear cut, but here is him absorbing the energy right out of the Presence in Avengers (1998) #44.

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By the way, it's not debatable whether Thor can handle Piccolo's energy potency as he's done so to things much more powerful like the God Bomb (though he had two hammers, but take it as half of it per one).

Thor also has the potential to overpower Piccolo's energy damage output with his own lightning blasts. Thor's lightning blast have high levels of power and are comparable in size to what Piccolo can produce if not much bigger. Here is an example of the lightning Thor can bring forth.

To bring forth the type of lightning Thor can muster, here is one of his most impressive feats to date. Here Odin literally seals off an entire dimension from the nine realms (used to be ten prior to this). Keep in mind Odin is a Skyfather. Original Sin #5.1

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Thor then proceeds to break this seal with a powerful cosmic storm. This lightning is more than capable of one-shotting anyone it hits in this battle, so if it's avoided that's your demise.

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A lightning bolt that can break a seal Odin put in place is an attack that should match Piccolo's most powerful blast and overpower it.

Final Thoughts

This is quite a lot, but I hope I covered most of the factors for the debate in it. Thor can strike much harder than Piccolo so he's going to be delivering more damage with his blows. Though Piccolo can strike him more times, it's going to do less damage and there is Thor being able to take a blow and then deliver one back to hit him. Even if Piccolo relies on energy blasts, Thor can deflect them with Mjolnir, block them by spinning his hammer, absorb them and release them back or using lightning to counter them. All in all, I think Thor has the better chance of victory.

@amendment50

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#21 Posted by Amendment50 (9798 posts) - - Show Bio

@newworldorder: Cool, opener looks good. I'm having a ton of internet issues atm but hopefully I can get a response up relatively soon.

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#22 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio

@newworldorder: Cool, opener looks good. I'm having a ton of internet issues atm but hopefully I can get a response up relatively soon.

Thank you, and no worries, take your time.

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#23 Posted by Watcher5000 (2326 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#24 Posted by Amendment50 (9798 posts) - - Show Bio
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Counters:

Piccolo and Thor have different powersets and vastly different advantages in this fight which is what makes this an interesting matchup. With this first round of counters I will do my best to take a comprehensive look at your showings for Thor and counter your arguments. With openers up I feel the ball is firmly in Piccolo's court. His advantages will be far too difficult for Thor to overcome.

Striking

I see you really laid down the foundation for your characters stats and abilities, so I'll try to do the same thing for Thor in my opening post so you can get the same. I don't think I want to counter your opener as it's nothing more than an opener, so I'll just try and one-up your stat feats by presenting mine. Let's start with the striking power Thor harnesses without the use of Mjolnir. I always like to start by showing a feat without Mjolnir because there is constantly the discussion that Mjolnir makes Thor strong or his opponent will make him lose his hammer so he won't be as effective. This showing from The Mighty Thor Vol.2 #7 should put that to rest. In a retelling of Thor's past adventures, we get a story of how Loki made Viking name Bodolf have the power of a God, capable of fighting Thor. This Viking would go on to beat Thor, but the Odinson would eventually come back and take back his win after a minor scuffle and beer and woman (young Thor was like that). Thor actually punches Bodolf with enough force to send him through the earth and come out the next side. The scan says moments later which can even indicate that Thor even struck him with enough force to not only send him through the planet, but also at high speeds. Remember to keep in mind that this was a young Thor who hadn't even obtained Mjolnir yet, so this is a very impressive showing.

This isn't all, though, because when Thor strikes with Mjolnir, his striking power is actually heightened to a much higher degree where he can strike with enough force to crack planets apart while hitting the god butcher Gorr. The blows were still powerful enough to also harm planet's away as well. Thor: God Of Thunder #9

Okay, so striking power right off the bat. This is something I intend to discuss at length, as it is a very dubious area for DBZ characters and one I feel I need to establish my position on absolutely clearly.

Let me start by conceding that yes, Thor has quite the advantage in raw, quantifiable damage output with physical strikes, but this concession is going to have to come with some hefty qualifications. Dragon Ball as a verse is notorious for arguments based on powerscaling to other characters to a large degree, and this is largely due to the bizarre gap between raw feats of power through energy blasts versus raw feats of physical strength. Fanboyism aside, inconsistency is the very reason the arguments for DBZ characters are so varied- there are people who think EoS Goku would lose to Superman, while others who think Goku would win that fight in the Namek saga.

No doubt everyone and their mother knows that Goku was unable to lift 40 tons in base even in the Buu saga, and as easy as it would be to write this off as a pure inconsistency, the fact of the matter is that in terms of raw physical strength the 40 tons feat is much closer to being in line with the actual feats of striking power displayed in the series at that point, scaling aside, than the many fancalcs and speculation people make to get around it. Piccolo has never punched someone through a planet with a punch; in fact he has never even come close. But we have to find a realistic level of power for him somewhere. So I'm going to talk about the distinction between physicals and energy/ki, because I do not think it is clear-cut. Everyone has their own theory to explain the inconsistency in Dragon Ball's writing, and here's mine.

The problem with drawing a clear line between physical durability and energy durability for DBZ characters is that their superhuman physical durability comes from their ki. They amp their physical durability with ki. This much is pretty clear even though it is never explicitly stated, and I have good evidence for it.

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The first time Trunks slashes at Goku, it is clearly implied that it would have been a lethal strike had Trunks followed through. The second time, Trunks warns that he won't stop, Goku surrounds himself with his ki, and all of a sudden the sword cannot even cut his finger. If ki is not amping physical durability, how else can this possibly be explained?

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Before Goku had training with ki, he was hurt by being hit in the head with an axe by a regular farmer. His durability has increased a thousandfold through training, but how? His muscles got harder? Maybe, but it makes a lot more sense if they can amp their physical durability through ki.

Remember this?

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Stupid, right? Well, maybe, but this is clearly explained by the fact that it is stated that Goku's guard is down when he receives this sneak attack. I.E. He is not preparing himself for an attack- I.E. He is not amping himself to increase his durability.

Purely quantifiable feats alone are not sufficient to gauge DBZ characters in every respect, because ki is complicated and functions as a part of their powersets in a lot of different ways. If their durability to physical attacks is amped by their ki, then it must be on par with their durability to ki attacks.

There are a few reasons I think this is important, the first being that I feel very strongly that a strike from Thor, even one of his upper-level ones with close to planetary-level strength, is not enough to do more than moderate damage to Piccolo. Because he has tanked energy attacks from the likes of Frieza and Android 17, damage output on the level of Thor's striking power is not too much for him to handle unless you consider him to have the physical durability of a much lower character like the Thing, or perhaps lower. Personally I believe that is a ridiculous thing to claim, and as long as Piccolo's durability to physical attacks is similar to his durability to energy attacks, my argument holds.

The second reason is to prove that Piccolo's strikes will likewise be able to damage Thor. While I certainly don't make the claim that Piccolo's striking power is on par with the likes of classic Drax, Piccolo's strikes can demonstrably hurt opponents with planetary durability and higher. He may not have impressive raw strength but if his strikes can do damage to characters with that level of durability (Thor's level of durability) raw strength is not very important. If Frieza and Android 17 are amping their physical durability with ki, then the logical conclusion is that Piccolo's physical attacks are damaging because they are doing similar levels of concentrated damage as his energy attacks. Perhaps his strikes are amped with ki, or perhaps these strikes simply hit in a limited area, but it doesn't really matter because the damage his strikes can do is crystal clear.

If you want to argue that Piccolo's energy and physicals are totally separate- that his physical strikes are completely unrelated to the damage he can do with energy blasts, and that his energy durability is a hundred thousand times above his physical durability- you are going to have to provide a counter-argument to this.

I do realize that not everyone will be convinced by this but I feel I have put forward a strong argument for comparing Piccolo's striking power to his energy attacks and I ask the voters to consider whether you have properly countered this or formulated a response to get around it.

That aside, no matter what you believe about Piccolo's physical strikes and how much of my argument about it that you take to heart, ultimately I think the point is not particularly important. While Piccolo's durability to physical attacks is important, it is contingent on the idea that Thor can physically tag Piccolo in the first place, and as I move on to a speed comparison I think I can demonstrate that this is not the case.

Likewise, while Piccolo in-character attacks with physical attacks and doing damage with those attacks will make the fight go by faster and more straightforwardly, Piccolo does not really need to do damage with his physical attacks because there is absolutely no reason he cannot rely on his energy attacks if necessary. I have demonstrated in my opener that Piccolo is a smart and a coy fighter, and if were to observe that his physical attacks were ineffective, of course he would switch to his more effective energy attacks to get the job done.

Thus, though I argue that Piccolo can definitely contend physically (and I feel that I have provided good evidence that he can), I will qualify that by saying that he does not need to, as he still has the tools to win here without a physical advantage.

With all of that said, I apologize for the long-winded argument and thank you for bearing with me. :P

Onward!

I'm aware the biggest issue in this debate is getting people to see how Thor can actually tag Piccolo, however, I don't see that as a huge issue personally. Thor isn't the fastest of characters, but he still gets the job done. He has a way of striking down fleeter characters by drawing them in with an attack and then sending one back which is mightier to send them off balance. I can show you there examples to show consistency as that's what is regarded as consistency on Comicvine.

Thor Vol.2 #35 - Gladiator blitzes Thor into the earth in which Thor easily tanks the assault and then takes his counter shot by blasting Gladiator back out through the hole in the earth with a blast of energy.

Avengers Vol.2 #5 - Hyperion blitzes Thor in which he evidently takes the initial blitz and releases a powerful strike back which seemingly does much more damage.

Siege #1 - Thor goes to take out Norman Osborn, in which Sentry catches Thor off-guard and blitzes him into the ground. The Sentry is ready to continue his assault, but Thor strikes him away before he gets the chance to.

I am very interested that you do not see speed as an issue here, as for me (and I'm sure many of the readers) it is perhaps the biggest crux of the debate. Based on your opener I am sure we are not in dispute about the fact that Piccolo completely outclasses Thor in speed, which I am thankful for- I am sure nobody wants to look at scans of Thor having trouble hitting Daredevil or author's statements claiming that Thor has no superhuman reaction speed at all. Thor's relative inconsistency, and Piccolo's difficult-to-quantify level, aside, the fact of the matter is that Piccolo has a massive level of super-speed and matching reflexes while Thor simply does not.

I find your examples as to how Piccolo's speed will not be an issue strange, as none of these are really speed feats for Thor at all or even really have anything to do with Thor- they are examples of Gladiator, Hyperion and Sentry failing to dodge a blow from Thor at close range. At best you could say this attests to Thor's ability to strike quickly at close range but that is a huge stretch considering there are numerous examples of Thor failing to land a hit at close range on slower characters. I would argue that these fast characters were clearly caught off-guard by the fact that Thor was even in good enough condition to attack him; after all, the first two Thor struck them out of a bullrush, and in the third Sentry was approaching to examine Thor as he lay on the ground. Either way this does not translate to Thor having no trouble with fast characters, and the fact that he was unable to react to a bullrush from the likes of Hyperion in the first place is evidence of this.

Besides that, Piccolo is a martial artist and does not bullrush in the first place. He simply fights operating at extremely high speeds. He has had no trouble reacting to close-range, even point-blank, melee attacks from opponents that do have super speed in the past, so I fail to understand how Thor will be any different.

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There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Piccolo could not dodge a similar attack from Thor who is not anywhere close to as fast. The most you could argue is that Thor could perhaps land one or two close-range blows due to catching Piccolo off-guard, but you would first have to demonstrate how Thor is supposed to do that in the first place, considering Piccolo does not bullrush and would not come into close range with his guard down.

You haven't yet properly countered the speed argument, but instead, rather confusingly, basically dismissed it, using scans that can simply be chalked up to the more reckless fighting styles of other (less skilled) fighters that were caught by surprise.

As for the energy blasts Piccolo possesses, I don't see them being the biggest issue as Thor has never had any issue of batting away laser fire or things of this magnitude. For example, in Avengers Vol.2 #23, he was casually knocking away projectiles and laser fire.

He's repealed Count Nefaria's ionic vision by spinning Mjolnir and essentially creating a barrier. This can be used to block large blasts or ki blasts for that matter. Avengers Vol.1 #166

Perhaps, but not all energy blasts are created equal, and by EoS Piccolo can by all means vaporize a moon with even a casual energy blast- I really cannot see any rational argument to the contrary, considering that a moon-level blast did not do more than wind him at BoS and the ease with which he damages planet level+ opponents later in the series. How can you say that Thor can just as easily block energy blasts that are magnitudes more powerful than the ones shown in these scans?

And even still, setting his ability to take Thor to blitz city aside for a moment, Piccolo has ways of getting around a guard with his energy blasts:

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Assuming that you can prove that Thor can block energy attacks of such a high magnitude in the first place, Thor still cannot avoiding getting hit by any barrage of Piccolo's if he attempts to target more than one area, unless you can prove that Thor can somehow cover his entire body at once by spinning Mjolnir around.

Not to mention that Piccolo can simply reappear behind Thor faster than he can perceive and then attack faster than Thor can react, considering his considerable speed advantage.

Durability

I don't think Piccolo is going to do much harm to Thor physically. In fact, I think most of his damage is going to come from energy projection because Thor is an absolute tank and should be more than capable of taking his physical punishment. Also, Dragon Ball Z characters usually are much more powerful energy wise compared to their actual physicals, which is, of course, the case here as well. I showed above Thor can take a blow and deliver one back showing his durability, however, a showing that should show Piccolo isn't going to do much with his blows, even in rapid succession, is a feat from where Thor takes a continuous barrage of blows from Classic Drax and Hulk in Infinity War.

He's also done something similar with the Scarlet Witch. In Uncanny Avengers Vol.1 #4 where Thor is mind controlled by the Red Skull and his men to go up against the other Avengers, in which he does. In this particular instance, he goes up against Scarlet Witch who is then assisted by Havok in taking down Thor, which they find themselves completely unable to do. After throwing everything they have it him, he powers through it and Wanda has to proceed to an alternate route to take him down. She taps into the power of Chaos energy (you know the energy Chthon the Elder God is the master of) and proceeds to blast Thor into the sky and away from the battle, because well that's all she could hope to do. This attack also didn't seem to have a lot of effect on him other than sending him away as he came back afterward pretty much unscathed.

Thor has taken blows from characters whose striking power is above Piccolo's, I do not deny. However I contest the idea that Piccolo will not be able to harm Thor with physical attacks, as I have detailed in great length above and do not feel the need to repeat ad nauseam.

While taking blasts from Wanda and Havok is nice, neither of these characters has the destructive capacity of Piccolo and nothing you have shown is evidence that Thor is capable of standing up to repeated planet-level attacks. Of course, I hope I don't have to point out that Silver Surfer is significantly above Thor and is a notorious jobber- and he was not going for a lethal attack in the scan you've provided. As of now I have yet to see any reason why blasts that can hurt Android #17 will not do the same or worse to Thor, especially considering the speed and volume with which Piccolo can throw them out.

Other abilities

This part is going to be relatively small, as I really wanted to focus on the above points for my opener. That being said, there were some things I wanted to get into. For starters, I wanted to state that Thor has the potential to absorb the energy from Piccolo's energy blasts or Piccolo himself. Thor doesn't result to these tactics unless his opponents are energy based, so it's possible he won't drain him from within, but it's likely he'll absorb his energy blasts and send them right back at Piccolo who I don't see stopping the attack once he does. I don't think I need to show Thor absorbing energy but it's pretty clear cut, but here is him absorbing the energy right out of the Presence in Avengers (1998) #44.

By the way, it's not debatable whether Thor can handle Piccolo's energy potency as he's done so to things much more powerful like the God Bomb (though he had two hammers, but take it as half of it per one).

How many times has Thor fought an enemy that used energy blasts and did not absorb them? This fight is a random encounter, so Thor does not even know Piccolo is an energy manipulator right off the bat. That aside, how will Thor even react in time to accomplish this? That Thor would be absorbing Piccolo's energy attacks is a stretch in and of itself and requires some serious generosity toward Thor's fighting style.

And even if Thor were able to throw Piccolo's energy attacks back at him, it wouldn't make nearly the same impact, as Piccolo is fast enough to react to and dodge ki blasts from extremely close range, and powerful enough to deflect ki blasts even more powerful than his own.

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Thor can hardly spam this technique, so considering Piccolo's numerous options and sufficient speed, even if he pulled it out it would have practically no impact on Piccolo.

Thor also has the potential to overpower Piccolo's energy damage output with his own lightning blasts. Thor's lightning blast have high levels of power and are comparable in size to what Piccolo can produce if not much bigger. Here is an example of the lightning Thor can bring forth.

To bring forth the type of lightning Thor can muster, here is one of his most impressive feats to date. Here Odin literally seals off an entire dimension from the nine realms (used to be ten prior to this). Keep in mind Odin is a Skyfather. Original Sin #5.1

Thor then proceeds to break this seal with a powerful cosmic storm. This lightning is more than capable of one-shotting anyone it hits in this battle, so if it's avoided that's your demise.

A lightning bolt that can break a seal Odin put in place is an attack that should match Piccolo's most powerful blast and overpower it.

Not really buying this to be honest, unless you want me to believe that Thor is Odin level in terms of energy projection.

This is the only scan you have provided of Thor's lightning, probably because it is the most impressive, but it's not a combat situation by any stretch, and besides that I don't really understand how it can be strictly scaled to Odin. Just because Odin created the seal does not mean we know how much of his power went into it, and thus how much power would be required to break it, unless you can provide context to clarify that. Considering that a weaker Piccolo could withstand a massive barrage of energy blasts from second form Frieza, who can casually destroy a planet with a finger in first form, I don't think that line of reasoning is really the kind of logic you want to be using. Thor hardly insta-KOs Hulk with a multi-planet-level blast of lightning every time they fight, so I'm not seeing a consistent level of energy output that matches Piccolo's, who has repeated showings of energy blasts being effective against opponents with planetary durability (and above).

Gameplan:

Piccolo still has every advantage that matters here, namely consistently high raw damage output, and extremely high speed. While Thor's blows will surely hurt a lot, it is totally irrational to assume that Thor has any chance of tagging Piccolo with a physical attack to begin with. Meanwhile, Piccolo's strikes have hurt opponents with durability that is comparable to Thor's, with blows that are comparable to attacks that have hurt Thor in the past, so it is safe to assume that Piccolo will be doing damage at melee range even if he does not have the raw strength advantage.

That said, raw strength is playing second fiddle to energy attacks in this fight, since Thor will be so pressed to land melee attacks on Piccolo in the first place. Even if you think Piccolo's striking power is completely and utterly separate from and unrelated to his energy attacks, it shouldn't impact the fight too much- even if Piccolo punching Thor was like hitting a wall of Adamantium, it wouldn't matter because Piccolo does not need to land a single physical strike to win this fight. His energy blasts are good enough to do the job on their own, and Thor cannot evade those attacks well enough to avoid taking incapacitating damage.

Repeated planet level output on Piccolo's side, combined with Thor's inability to tag Piccolo physically, combined with Piccolo's extremely strong durability against energy attacks, combined with his regenerative abilities, mean that Piccolo will sustain significantly less damage than he deals, and it will not impact him as much. Thus, Piccolo has everything he needs to win this fight very solidly.

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@newworldorder: Cranked this out faster than I was expecting... forgive this post for being long-winded. I'm having fun so far, and I look forward to your response! I am sure the next round of counters will be very interesting... any DBZ vs. comics matchup is quite the complicated debate, I think.

You're up; good luck!

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This is looking really good T4V

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#32 Posted by God_Vulcan (1964 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v