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#1 Edited by oceanmaster21 (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

Racob7 Representing: Goku SS1 Namek Saga


Oceanmaster21: Representing Wonder Man

Rules:Characters will be in-character But taking the battle very serious Each character will have basic-knowledge on the other.The characters will be 100 feet from each other before the battle begins. Battle takes place On Earth in the sky CaV RulesPlease leave your biases at the door.Please ask to be tagged during the debate.This will be a debate between the two of us.We will debate until we're bored and then open voting.

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#2 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15388 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43364 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes

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#4 Posted by Racob7 (10059 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Evil-Incarnate (7218 posts) - - Show Bio

This is gonna be interesting

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#6 Posted by Racob7 (10059 posts) - - Show Bio

@oceanmaster21: Also you should do a full edit and put Goku vs Wonder Man in the title so people actually click.

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#7 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15388 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15388 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Racob7 (10059 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15388 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Ouroborik (3744 posts) - - Show Bio


This is some hardcore stuff that's about to go down...

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#12 Edited by Racob7 (10059 posts) - - Show Bio
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He really needs no introduction, does he? I'll be using the main timeline or "canon" Goku from the Namek Saga. On to my argument.

First of all, let's talk about power suppression or rather ki control as it's called in the context of the Dragon Ball universe. Akira Toriyama isn't a great writer and sometimes he doesn't even know what will happen at the end of the story he's telling until he gets there. He wrote himself into a tough spot by making his characters in Dragon Ball Z so ridiculously powerful that pretty much the entire fighting cast were capable of easily destroying whatever planet they were standing on. If everyone has that kind of firepower then how can they possible have life or death battles on the surface of worlds without destroying everything around them? Toriyama's explanation for this is that the characters in Dragon Ball can suppress or more accurately focus their power so that Piccolo can casually blow the moon to smithereens or leave Raditz standing unscathed in a small crater with pretty much the same blast. As stupid as ki control is it's nonetheless the canon explanation that Toriyama gives us to explain the inconsistency of the series.

He even shows it to us very plainly in Battle of Gods when Goku first becomes a Super Saiyan God and starts trading blows with Beerus. Waves of their unbridled energy spread out across the universe and cause destruction so widespread that the universe is almost destroyed before Goku, the conveniently prodigal man that he is, fully adapts to having the power of a god and is able to suppress his power so that the fight causes no more collateral damage than a fight would have during the Cell saga even though Vegeta's iconic final flash from back then wouldn't even register in a battle on that level. We do see a little bit of difference now with battles often causing changes or damage to reality like Toppo's god power creating a sky full of stars in an empty universe or Gogeta and Broly punching their way into another dimension but for the most part the fights in Dragon Ball look the exact same as they used to look because of ki control.

Now let's talk about the actual battle here. I'm first going to disprove a common misconception about Goku and other Dragon Ball characters which is that they are much weaker physically then they are when it comes to their energy blasts. People don't realize that the energy that Goku puts into his kamehameha is the same energy that he uses to enhance his strength, so ki control applies just as much to the physical attacks he uses as it does to his energy attacks. There's a scene from the anime that really shows what Goku's strength is like and even though it doesn't appear in the manga, it appears in Dragon Ball Kai which is the same timeline as Dragon Ball Super, the primary timeline that the series now follows. I tried for like half an hour but couldn't find the scene for some reason. If I do find it I will add it.

In this scene Frieza charges up a death ball with both hands and throws it down at Goku. Goku catches the ball and holds it back, then punches it away. The ball flies out into space at a speed faster than light and a few seconds later collides with another planet presumably in the same solar system which is destroyed. It wasn't the force of the punch exerted on the ball that destroyed the planet, it was the ball exploding on impact and releasing the energy inside like a bomb detonating, but still this is a ridiculous feat. Frieza's attacks can push their way down to a planet's core in just his first form and this is an attack from his final form. Goku catches that and then knocks it away with the sort of punch you'd expect from Superman. Imagine a punch that could knock you from Earth to Mars, assuming the distances between Namek and this other planet are something similar to that. Wonder Man is definitely going to be hurt by punches like this. For reference, Simon was KOed when Gladiator pummeled him into the core of a planet like driving in a nail. Goku should be able to do the same quite easily.

Oh, and of course Goku can hold his own in drawn out fights where he's taking lots of punches like that so there's his durability for you. He also no sold attacks from Frieza and straight up mocked him for being able to destroy planets easily but not being able to destroy a dude.

A way in which Goku laughably outclasses Simon is speed. If you've ever seen a Dragon Ball debate you'd heard this all before. Piccolo blew away the moon in seconds and his special beam cannon which was even faster than his regular attacks like the one that destroyed the moon was dodged by Raditz. This proves that long before Frieza came along characters could avoid FTL attacks. Goku won't have to worry about any of that from Simon however. Let's compare two feats. Goku traveled from one half of Namek to the other almost to confront Frieza in the time it took Frieza to say a few words, and this is before his Super Saiyan transformation.

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Compare that to this.

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This was Simon flying with the aid of a jetpack but even after he learned to fly using his own power there's no evidence that he's faster than this. He certainly has no feats anywhere near Goku's speed feats.

I suppose I should briefly mention Goku's skill but I doubt we disagree on this. Goku is a whole lot more skilled at fighting than Simon is. Even as a child he was rivaling Roshi who is several hundred years old and is known as a god of martial arts. That was before Goku trained with the actual gods of Earth and King Kai. I don't think Simon even has any skill feats which is really really bad against Goku.

My final and also brief section is energy attacks. Piccolo of course destroyed the moon with a casual blast from his hand while he was training during the Saiyan saga and then Frieza in his first from was shown destroying planet Vegeta with a finger while chilling in his hover chair. Planet Vegeta had ten times the gravity of Earth by the way and since it's not a magically created planet like King Kai's world which also has ten times Earth's gravity but has the area of maybe a football field it's logical to assume that planet Vegeta has ten times the mass of Earth. If Frieza is ten times planet busting casually in his first form which he undeniably is I don't need to waste much time telling you that any Super Saiyan has enough firepower to blow away Simon.

That's the end of my first post. Sorry if some of you don't like the walls of text but I prefer to not copy and paste a respect thread when I do a CaV especially here when I had so little feats I actually needed to talk about. I look forward to the rebuttal from @oceanmaster21.

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#13 Posted by Racob7 (10059 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by TifaLockhart (21167 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be good. I'd like to be tagged even if I abstain from voting please.

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#15 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

@racob7: I get to this sometime this week, been sick for couple days. But I got you this is going to be fun.

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#16 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry for Delay been very sick of late and family issues to.

But let's get this started now

Now I am a huge DBZ fan so I not going to sit here and deny Goku speed, But Simon not a slouch by anymeans

1st scan catching savage Hulk mid leap and tossing him

2nd scan Red Hulk sucker punches him off guard but revenge is so sweet- seen in the 3rd scan

3rd scan he punches Red Hulk but then Simon does a DBZ move by flying past Rulk and went from his hit to go behind him to place him in a sleeper hold

4th scan puts Rulk to sleep.

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But in any case Goku is faster but can he dish out and handle physical damage.

I start off with a few Durability feats

1 takes hit from Hulk

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Survives Scarlett crashing a mountain on him.

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1-tanks millions of ampers of Electricity,note scan mentions him being on thor strength level.

2-3 tanks hit from Sentry

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Now lets talk about Strength

1 lifts weights designed for Tor, even though he couldn't hold it very long he still did it, which is impressive. And more so that MS. Marvel couldn't even budge them

2 lifts 50,000 tons

3-8 Battle Abomination

9-12 battles and defeats MS. Marvel

13 Punched Hercules so hard that he said Simon rivals the god of Thunder

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Now keep in mind of one particular of Simon lifting 50,000 tons- Goku can't lift that at ss1 Namek. Epecially if this is accurate, Goku a 2,000 tonner so no where near 50,000 tons. Not to mention that i showed Simon lifting Thor weight equipment.

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Now for the battle itself, Goku is indeed faster no doubt about it, But Simon has dealt with people on Frieza/Goku level dozens of times and survived. Even has defeated those individuals on some occasion. Goku dose have great fire power and great fighter at that but. Simon is physically stronger, And More Durable- And even though Goku might indeed be a better fighter, once Simon gets the hands on him it's a wrap.

Also to my opponents and to viewers/Judges. Sorry if my post looks sloppy, I have a 2003 pc it moves at a very slow rate, my scan fiele ept taking forever to upload, then comicvine deleted them, had to keep posting and posting and posting, think I tried posting this post 9 times already. Again my apologies.

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#17 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15388 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by Racob7 (10059 posts) - - Show Bio
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I'm actually going to start with the last thing you said. The forty tons thing is pretty ridiculous since there are feats from Dragon Ball, from before DBZ I mean, that are on that level. You have Goku as a child before his training with Roshi pushing a huge boulder that definitely weighs a lot more than forty tons which is actually how he convinced Roshi to train him. Then you have Tao who gets around by throwing trees and stone pillars many miles away so he can ride them. You have Goku as a teenager throwing giant piccolo by grabbing just his finger...

Also something to consider with many of Simon's feats is that most of them come from the an older era when characters weren't as ludicrously powerful as they are now. Back then Spider-Man was one of the strongest characters in terms of lifting strength. Just like Dragon Ball the power levels have gotten inflated over time.

Also, in the same scan where Simon is taking hits from Hulk he's also being blitzed by Hulk. Oof...

Let's do some comparing again. As we've already established Raditz was at least very nearly light speed since he dodged a special beam cannon, I'm just being generous with that claim but the cannon is definitely light speed since it's several times faster than the beam that hit the moon in seconds, and then later on we have Goku fighting Jeice and Burter who are so slow compared to him that to them it seems like Goku is intangible when he dodges their attacks. From their perspective it's as though their attacks just pass right through him. Then Goku gets a boost after that and then after that his hair turns gold and he fights Simon in this hypothetical battle...

Do you really think Simon will ever be able to touch Goku at all? He's apparently relative to the Hulk in speed even in the modern era meanwhile Goku is looking more like Quicksilver with martial arts training from gods and enough power to blow away the Earth probably close to a hundred times over without exaggeration.

Sure, Simon could maybe get punched all the way to Mars and be okay but what about someone who hits that hard that can hit him thousands of times before he can blink?

This is a cakewalk for Goku. He's up against a slow brick with no skill at all and honestly he's not even that much physically weaker than Simon. Even if we said Goku wasn't allowed to use energy blasts he'd still win the fight.


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#20 Edited by oceanmaster21 (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

Now I already admitted Goku is faster no doubt about it. But Simon still take the strength department, and durability. I shown Simon lifting some serious weight, as well as taking blows from people who are stronger and faster then Goku. Such as people like Sentry. I shown Simon being able to deal damage to those guys proving he can hang with the big boys. Yes kid Goku did lift giant king piccolo. Which is good except how much did he weigh? Let say Piccolo weighed 100 tons. What has Goku done since then till the namek saga,beside his ss1 transformation, that has put him on Simon level? when Simon lifted 50,000 tons.

Yes Goku dose have the speed,can Simon catch Goku yes,as he dealt with faster individuals, do you really think Goku can handle one good solid blow from Simon? Goku will cause problems but nothing Simon can't handle, and I believe Simon will achieve victory.

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#21 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

Even though namek saga goku was a badass. I have seen nothing to suggest he has anything to bring to Simon, that Simon hasn't Simon hasn't deal with. Simon has faced worse opponents then Namek Saga ss1 Goku.

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#22 Posted by cKarma (218 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol Is this real

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#23 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

@racob7: its your turn mate, after your next post, the next one I make after you will be final post.