CaV | Obito Uchiha(Binnk) vs. Erza Scarlet(SleekCyber)

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Binnk

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#1  Edited By Binnk
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Rules and Stipulations

  • Rinnegan WA Obito
  • Current Erza
  • Manga feats for both
  • In character, serious and going all out
  • Win by K.O or death, BFR does not count
  • Standard gear
  • Random encounter

CAV Rules

  • Do not give your opinion on the fight or try to debate
  • Do not comment on both debater's arguments until after the debate
  • Vote for who made the better arguments, not who you think would win this hypothetical matchup
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#2  Edited By Binnk
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Let's get it, excited for this one. Post will be up soon.

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#9  Edited By High_Pressure

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Erza Scarlet - The Fairy Queen

"If you truly desire greatness, you must first know what makes you weak!"
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One of the most popular characters in all of Mashima's works, Erza Scarlet (Eruza Sukāretto), also known as "Titania" by her epithet, is an S-Class Mage of the Fairy Tail Guild, wherein she is a member of Team Natsu. She also served as the guild's 7th Guild Master during Makarov's absence in X792. A character with the highest of ups, and some pretty memorable moments, I hope to convince you that she outclasses her opponent in more ways than one. In that case I hope you enjoy, I wish my opponent good luck, and without further ado let's begin:

Magic

One of the most versatile characters within the setting, Erza gets her epithet "Titania" from the style of her magic similar to other characters such as Natsu and August. In a nutshell, her magic allows her to requip weapons & armors that enhance her abilities in battle. As explained by Happy early on, this weapons and armors are in a different dimension at which she can use instantly. This magic of hers is known as "The Knight."

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She has a dozens, and dozens of these armors, all of which give her different abilities to use in battle. Some of them are elemental in nature and allow her to use the power of fire, ice, water, lightning, all through her swords and other weapons. Not only do these armors allow her to attack using the element, but gives her resistance when up against them.

Power & Capabilities

Erza has always been known as a powerhouse both inside, and outside the guild itself. Not only is she an S-Class mage of the #1 guild, but she has also been called the strongest woman in the guild on many occasions [1][2]. Her name alone instills fear in both ally and enemy, and she has her position has given her the authority to discipline the other members that includes Elfman, Gajeel, Natsu, and Gray. Going back to Edolas and her fight with Erza Knightwalker, Erza preformed a mountain level feat when the two clashed swords. In fact, to say they destroyed it would be an understatement; they completely shattered the entire island.

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The reason why I'd call this a mountain level feat is for a few reasons. First off, visually speaking, the floating island of which they're fighting on has multiple buildings on it and a city block as well. These floating islands, as we've seen before can be decently large as well, holding not only city blocks, but also multiple mountains and entire landscapes as well.

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The power levels really jumped levels during the Alvarez arc and continuing into the sequel. This is especially true for Erza who's feats in both pretty much put all previous to shame. This is with the introduction of the Spriggan 12 who per Mashima, are the strongest villains of the original series. This statement is also consistent with their introduction as Brandish, her magical power was menacing on an unprecedented level and we know the Spriggans (bar Irene and August), are relative to one another. Brandish with ease changed the entire landscape of an island by making it bigger many times over.

She's showed similar feats by making Gajeel as big as Aldoron. Other notable feats include Invel with a wave of his hand, covering an entire landscape in a heavy blizzard with ease.

Alright, back to Erza who's first proper battle in the arc came against Ajeel who is Invel and Brandish's peer. Someone who actually is a bad matchup because his Sand can dry out Erza's swords [1][2]. Ajeel's trump card is his "Sand World" which as the name suggest, creates a massive sandstorm where he can move freely with the sand and attack from wherever he pleases.

This sandstorm was very large and I'd say it's large island sized as it was deployed in Magnolia and was able to reach Bisca and co who were in the Eastern woods. Using a map of Fiore, we can see that the distance between Magnolia and the Eastern woods, is comparable to that of Magnolia to Hargeon which is 370 km. Erza was able to disperse this sandstorm in an instant which is an incredible feat.

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Continuing through the arc, Erza, with the help of Wendy, went up against Irene who is the strongest woman of the Spriggan 12 and is the only one who is capable of rivaling August. Irene herself is incredibly powerful in both power and enchantments, she has on panel continental feats in Universe One and I will explain why. Universe One is a reconstruction magic which by default, means she's deconstructing (which is destruction) the earth itself including tectonic plates, compressing them, and relocating them at insanely high speeds. She also shrunk Fiore to 1/20th of it's true size which was calc'd to be continental in size. Just a reminder, that Fiore is the one of the smallest countries on the map.

As crazy as this feat is, U1 isn't even her most powerful enchant, not even close actually. That title goes to Deus Sema, a meteor that Erza was able to blitz and destroy it despite not only being tired and fatigued from the war, but all the bones in her body were broken except for her right arm. No, that isn't a hyperbole.

She caps off this incredible feat by slicing Irene's dragon form, causing so much damage that she straight up knocked her out of her dragon form.

At this point during Alvarez, Erza should be operating in the large island - small country level range but that isn't everything yet. She had a stalemate fight against Laxus, who like her is incredibly powerful, a fellow S-Class mage and has been compared to Gildarts multiple times. Laxus over the year, mastered Red Lightning which logically should be more than a 2x power multiplier and I will explain why. During his fight with Wahl, Laxus wasn't able to do any damage because the former was immune to lightning based attacks. But with RL, he was able to overcome this immunity and one-shot Wahl.

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Erza was not only capable of fighting on equal basis with Laxus and even overpowering him at times, she was able to match his Raiko with her own attack of equal power, canceling both in the process. That was the same attack that one-shot Wahl.

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There are a few of her armors which are obviously going to be stronger than others which I think should be highlighted despite not being shown much. One of these is known as Nakagami Armor which Erza was able to use after releasing her Second Origin. With this, not only does Erza get an incredible boost in power and stats, but the ability of this armor allows her to cut through space itself dispel any and all magic attacks thrown at her.

Strength & Speed

One of Erza's best traits is her ability to take damage and keep going. First feat we see is when she intercepts Natsu and Gray as they're trying to kill each other, and stops their punches from ever intercepting. This also goes to show her how fast she is as she intercepted them as they were swinging their fists.

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What makes this notable? Because Natsu was bloodlusted and fighting to kill and as we know, the more emotional Natsu gets, the stronger he is. The power in his punches would be above those that he used against the war god which were already mountain level.

During the fight with Laxus, Erza's durability and ability to keep fighting was again put on display. She easily tanked his lightning punch (which was capable of breaking her lightning empress armor) and his roar. It should be noted that Laxus has explicitly gotten much stronger since the Alvarez war, the arc where he was already one-shotting country level characters like Wahl.

During their fight, she was hit multiple times and tanked all the attacks coming her way.

Read left to right:

  • First scan is Erza being hit with a jolt of RL.
  • Second scan is the same thing as before but this time it was through a punch from Laxus.
  • Third scan is Erza being kicked by him.
  • Fourth scan is Erza being punched into the ground which was capable of crushing the ground beneath them.
  • Fifth scan is again, Erza being hit by a powerful jolt of RL. All these attack Erza was able to tank when characters like Wahl were one-shot almost immediately.

Onto speed, Laxus' lightning has shown to emulate real life lightning on multiple occasion. When Laxus threw his lightning halberd at Natsu, Gajeel was able to redirect the attack to him by turning himself into a lightning rod. Laxus was able to intercept Hades before he was able to fire off his bullets on Natsu when he was right in front of him. During Alvarez, Laxus was able to summon lightning to intercept and destroy Wahl's enhanced bullet attacks which were launched at point blank range.

Reading left to right:

  • Scans 1-2 show Laxus turning himself into a lightning bolt and intercepting Hades
  • Scans 3-5 are Laxus destroying Wahl's attack by summoning lightning

Someone did end quantifying this feat which I'll post here:

"For reference, your average bullet can move 5 meters in 0.007 seconds(they move at speeds of 762 meters per second), meaning Laxus' lightning would have to have come down from the clouds in that timeframe to vaporise all of Wall's bullets before they could cover the distance between the two of them. For reference, regular cloud to ground lightning takes about 0.021 seconds to cover the same distance, which would make Laxus' lightning 3 times faster, or about Mach 850. This math also matches up with the fact that low-level clouds manifest at around 2 kilometres above ground level, and Laxus' lightning covering that distance in such a short timeframe would also be around Mach 900. And both Natsu and characters that are equal to his base form dodged this very lightning" -HitTheAssassin

During their fight, Laxus was able to straight up blitz his own lightning bolt, let me illustrate:

Reading left to right:

  • First scan we can see his RL bolt approaching Erza
  • Second scan is Laxus crossing the distance between them and we can see him right in front of Erza's face before the bolt was able to make it.

As shown with her fight against Irene, Erza was hit by her dragon claw and had every single bone in her body broken except her right arm yet she was still able to destroy Deus Sema. As good of a durability and endurance feat as this is, it's also very much a speed feat for Erza. Deus Sema was summoned from extremely deep of parts of outer space. Visually, a lot farther than distance between the earth and moon which is 384,000 km.

Erza straight up blitzed this meteor, she swung her sword right when she was face to face with meteor and intercepted it before it was able to hit the ground. This feat was proved to be a sub-rel feat.

Conclusion

I won't make any conclusions on my opponent's character before we can see their opener but I hope I've done a decent job of properly highlighting what Erza can bring to the table.

On to you!

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The_MetaBee

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Amazing post!

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Ilikecarti

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#25  Edited By Ilikecarti

Great post

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El_directo_

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Hmmm good post!

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Binnk

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@cosmicemperorr: Good stuff, I should have something up within a couple days or so

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@binnk said:

@cosmicemperorr: Good stuff, I should have something up within a couple days or so

Sounds good.

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#34  Edited By Binnk

The Saviour: Obito Uchiha

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“I have no interest in the affairs of the world soon to end.”

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Introduction

Biography

Obito Uchiha is a central antagonist of the Naruto series. He was a member of Konohagakure's Uchiha clan who was believed to have died during the Third Shinobi World War, his only surviving legacy being the Sharingan he entrusted to his teammate, Kakashi Hatake.

A Few Key Terms

Chakra - A substance present in nearly every living being in the Naruto world. People are able to manipulate Chakra in order to create Jutsu, think of it as sort of like Ki or Magic, the more you have of it, the stronger you will be and the more stamina you have

Ninjutsu - One of the three main forms of Jutsu in the Naruto world, users of Chakra are able to manipulate the substance to change its nature element in order to create effects such as explosions, fireballs or healing

Genjutsu - Another form of Jutsu, this causes disruptions in one's chakra network, causing them to feel effects that are merely illusions

Kekkei Genkai - Also known as a bloodline technique, where an anomaly in someone's DNA gives them abilities that are unique to themself and their family members

Physical Stats

Strength/Durability

While Obito isn't necessarily a physical based fighter at all, he's certainly no slouch in this department. For instance, he is capable of trading blows with KCM Naruto, this Naruto should scale significantly above Four Tailed Naruto, as that Naruto during his fight against Orochimaru was able to create shockwaves strong enough to level a large part of the forest they were in and the crater produced dwarfed the small mountains surrounding it. Keep in mind that this feat was performed while Naruto was merely transforming into his 4T state, and this was only a mere fraction of Kuruma's chakra that Naruto had access to at the time, which is nothing in comparison to KCM Naruto, which is the version Obito fought.

As a result of this, Obito should scale to the likes of Pain in terms of pure physicals (at bare minimum, the weaker ones), as one of the weakeer paths was able to tank a kick from Jiraiya, who in turn should be a mountain level character, as his Rasengan is said to be able to carve through mountains, while using Sage Mode, Jiraiya's physicals are enhanced further, and as such he was able to kick away one of Pain's summons with his physical strength alone, and was able to create a hole that was much larger than the pipes he was trying to escape through.

Jiraiya's feat alone should be a casual hill level feat, which would make Jiraiya a solid mountain level+ character. In addition to this, Obito was able to take a Rasengan from both KCM Naruto and Base Minato, both Rasengans should once again scale to Jiraiya's own mountain+ level Rasengan. I'd also like to point out that KCM Naruto's rasengan should scale above Sage Naruto's Rasengan, which in turn was stated to have surpassed Jiraiya's in power.

Going back to Obito's fight with Naruto and Guy, in the scan above, Naruto is visibly getting overpowered physically by Obito, claiming that he's so strong he can't find the opportunity to attack, this version of Naruto, combined with attacks from Itachi and Bee was able to overpower Nagato's Chibaku Tensei, and was able to come out of the resulting explosion unscathed. The resulting explosion was big enough to be comparable to the surrounding mountain range around it. A normal Bijuudama is capable of leveling multiple mountains alone, this combined with Naruto's Rasenshuriken and Itachi's Magatama overpowering the gravitational pull of CT's core should put KCM Naruto somewhere in the higher ends of the Island level range.

Well that was one hell of a long scaling chain huh? With this I believe we can conclude that Obito's physicals should be in the Island - Large Island level range easily, once again, Obito is not a physical based fighter as he mostly relies on his versatility and hax which I will cover later on in this post.

Speed

This section should be fairly straightforward, as Obito is able to react to attacks from both KCM Naruto (shown above) and BM Naruto. Shortly after Naruto unlocked KCM, he was able to not only react to, but blitz the Raikage's Lariat at point blank range, this Jutsu was stated to enhance the Raikage's speed to "near lightspeed". "Near lightspeed' can vary as it could be as low as 1% the SOL, putting this feat at Sub-Relativistic at bare minimum.

As for BM Naruto, as soon as he unlocked the form, Naruto was able to intercept 5 Bijuudama at point blank range and send them all in different directions. What's impressive about this feat is that the Bijuudama, even after having their trajectory changed by Hashirama's Rashomon Gates were still fast enough to cross an ocean all the way to the opposite coastline over a couple seconds, which is at least a quad mach feat. Even more impressive is that Obito himself was able to react to a Bijuudama as shown in the scans posted above. It should be noted that BM Naruto scales above KCM in terms of speed significantly.

With this in mind, I would personally have Obito within the Relativistic range in terms of speed, which is definitely more than enough to keep up with the likes of Erza in this fight

Sharingan

Being a member of the Uchiha Clan, Obito has access to his clan's infamous Kekkei Genkai known as the Sharingan. The Sharingan, when activated, grants the user enhanced reaction speed and perception. To put into perspective as to how big a boost this eye gives the user, during Naruto and Sasuke's first major battle in the series, Sasuke, after fully maturing his Sharingan, went from being barely able to keep up with a Nine Tails chakra amped Naruto to being able to predict what Naruto was going to do next, as if he could see slightly ahead into the future.

Genjutsu

One of the most basic Sharingan abilities is the ability known as Genjutsu, which I'm sure many of you are familiar with. Genjutsu allows the user to put their target under an illusion as a form of immobilization or as a way to control people and gather information. Obito's Genjutsu potency is no joke either, as he was able to put the 4th Mizukage, Isobu under his control, Isobu is also a Jinchuriki, who are known to have ridiculously a high Genjutsu resistance, showing that Obito's Genjutsu potency is incredibly strong for an Uchiha.

Kamui

Now this is where things get really interesting and is one of the reasons I wanted to represent Obito in this debate. After evolving his Sharingan into the Mangekyo Sharingan, Obito was granted the powerful ability known as Kamui, and his usage of this ability is basically his main form of combat. This ability allows Obito to transport objects and people in and out of his own pocket dimension from a short distance, as I'm aware victory by BFR is restricted for the sake of this debate, I will not use this as a win condition for Obito, but the ability to eject objects out of the Kamui Dimension will surely be useful, as shown by him shooting out projectiles strong enough to slice through the Eight Tails' Tail like butter, which is impressive as all the Bijuu are capable of leveling mountains with ease, putting them somwhere in the Island level range.

Obito mainly uses this ability to make himself intangible, how this works is that Obito uses the teleportation ability to teleport parts of his body to the Kamui dimension, making him basically untouchable through normal means. This ability allows Obito to phase through objects and Jutsu as well as conceal his own presence by erasing all trace of his Chakra. This alone would make Obito an absolute pain to fight against, as he would be able to phase and move through the ground to take his opponents by surprise.

Obito has also shown incredible mastery over Kamui, as he is able to fight against multiple high level opponents such as Naruto and Might Guy yet still keep his concentration in order to not get hit once and still keep pressuring his opponents.

As for the speed of Kamui, Obito was able to activate it while the Raikage was charging towards him at near lightspeed without much trouble, putting the speed of Kamui anywhere from Sub-Rel to Relativistic, which is further backed by the scans above that show Obito casually reacting to quite casually.

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In addition, Obito is able to quite freely move around in the air with Kamui, as sort of a pseudo method of flight, further showing his prowess with this ability, this would allow him to levitate in the air while raining down projectiles against his opponent.

With this ability alone, Erza is sure to have a tough time even harming Obito, while Obito could simply phase through all of her attacks. This is not even mentioning his other set of Jutsu, which I will be covering in the next section.

Rinnegan

As White Mask Obito is being used here, not only does Obito have access to his already broken ability, Kamui, but after extracting Nagato's eyes, he was given the abilities of the Rinnegan. The Rinnegan is definietly one of, if not the single most busted dojutsu in the entire series, which I will go into why in this section. It is important to note that Obito does in fact have access to and knows how to use each of the Rinnegan Paths, but simply chose not to use them because in both instances of him fighting in the war before becoming the Ten Tails Jinchuriki, he was more focused on using the Rinnegan for controlling the Six Jinchuuriki and the Gedo Mazo.

For the sake of this debate, energies are not equal, so I will only be focusing on the Rinnegan abilities that wil lactually be useful in this fight, so without further ado, let's get into them shall we?

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Deva Path

Shinra Tensei

With the Deva Path, Obito creates a repulsive force able to blow away anything in its vicinity, he is able to alter the size of this force in order to avoid hitting allies with it. This ability is quite useful, as Obito would be able to repel both physical attacks and Ninjutsu.

With each use of ST, there is a 5 second cooldown in between, however this cooldown does depend on how strong the ST is when used. The strength of a Shinra Tensei can vary depending on how much chakra is put into it, as the strongest ST used by the Deva Path was able to destroy basically all of Konoha, completely devastating several kilometers worth of land in a few seconds

This repulsive force also seems to be omni directional, being able to repel attacks from all directions, with a casual ST being able to level a good chunk of Konoha, which would be around MCB in terms of range.

Banshou Tenin

This ability is quite simple, as it is the complete opposite of ST, allowing the user to attract anything in their vicinity towards them

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Chibaku Tensei

Probably one of the strongest Jutsu in Obito's arsenal, Chibaku Tensei allows Obito to create a black sphere which then ascends to the sky while drawing in its surroundings. The gravitational force of the sphere is so strong that it can literally rip apart mountains, the crater that was created from the sphere was larger than an entire mountain range, which is an easy Island level feat. What's even crazier is that Nagato when he used it actually wanted to enlarge it before the nine tails broke out of it, implying that it can be even larger than what was shown.

Now while the Jutsu does have a weakness, that being the sphere, it took the strongest attacks from KCM Naruto, Bee and Itachi to breach the rock formation surrounding it in order to destroy it completely. What's interesting here, is that not even a barrage of Bijuudama from KN6 Naruto was able to destroy an incomplete rock formation

Asura Path

The Asura Path allows the user to, in a sense, weaponize their own body to summon a plethora of machinery and weapons. For instance, its capable of using a cannon with blasts strong enough to destroy quite a large area.

Additionally, the user is capable of removing their own hand to reveal missles that can be locked on and fired at their target. Furthermore, these missiles are said to be made from technology that doesn't exist in the Shinobi world yet, so I don't think that these missles can be absorbed as chakra.

The user is also able to create extra arms from their body with blades, these arms are long enough to restrain their opponent's movements as shown here with Killer Bee

Animal Path

This might just be one of the most useful paths that Obito has access to and I have no doubt it would give Erza a run for her money either. This path allows the user to summon different types of creatures, as well as summon multiple creatures at the same time. These creatures can also be re summoned once they are destroyed. The main strategy by using this path is to overwhelm opponents by using a barrage of summons.

Giant Chimera

This summon is quite deadly, as it grows larger with the more damage it takes so opponents would have quite a tough time putting it down, and the only way to destroy it for good is by attacking the summoner directly. However with ohter summons on the battlefield, this is no easy task by any means. This summon is quite tanky too, as it was able to take multiple elemental jutsu from the Anbu, as well as a giant Rasengan from KCM Naruto.

Giant Drill Beaked Bird

This path grants the user the advantage of flight, furthermore, this bird is also capable of a strong piercing attack with its beak

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Giant Chameleon

This is probably the most useful summon in Obito's arsenal as it allows for him to move around the battlefield while completely invisible while at the same time being able to use other Jutsu, as seen when he used a ST while invisible. This summon also has a tail that is capable of restricting movement.

Giant Panda

User summons a giant panda that is capable of hardening it's body which in turn creates an effective defense for the suer

Now while the Animal Path does have more summons that this, I believe that the above summons are probably the most versatile and useful for this battle, so for now I'll only mention these ones for the sake of simplicity

Naraka Path

Finally, we have the Naraka Path, while this ability may not seem as useful as the other paths, it would still come in quite handy in this fight.

This path allows the user to interrogate their opponent, the user only needs to restrain their opponent first and summon the King of Hell to question them, once answers are provided, the KOH releases its tendrils from its mouth and suck up the victim's life force, if the person was lying or refused to answer anything, the KOH would then consume the victim's life force, thereby killing them instantly. If they told the truth, they would live but come out quite exhausted

Another handy ability is the ability to repair damages. Once again summoning the King of Hell, it would then ingest a body, after some time the body would then be appear outside the KOH's mouth completely rejuvenated and without a single scratch. This ability would prove quite handy if Obito were to sustain any significant damage in this fight

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Human Path

This path is probably one of the most dangerous abilities that anybody would have to go up against. As the ability allows the user to rip the souls and read the minds of their opponents.

By placing their hand on their opponent's head, the user forces them into a nigh comatose state where they cannot move or cast any Jutsu, thereby exposing them to another follow up attack.

Additionally, the user is capable of ripping out the souls of their opponent just by making contact with them, as shown when Nagato used it against KCM Naruto

Without basic knowledge, this ability would prove deadly for any fighter, as one wrong move and they would be immobilized and find their soul being sucked with nothing they can do about it.

And there we have it, all of Obito's Rinnegan abilities summed up in one category. With this level of versatility combined with the use of Kamui, I have no doubt that Obito would emerge the victor in this fight.

Gedo Mazo

Obito's summon, the Gedo Mazo is the husk of the Ten Tails after the extraction of its Chakra. This summon is quite impressive, as when Nagato initially summoned it, the Gedo Mazo was able to instantly drain the souls of its targets by producing phantom dragons that don't even need to make physical contact with their targets. It can also produce chakra chains that immobilise targets, as well as lightning bolts that can cause some AOE damage.

Its physical might is nothing to scoff at either, as it was able to shrug off attacks from a mountain sized Choji and Choza as well as produce a chakra blast strong enough that it is comparable to, if not greater than both of them in size. Additionally, it was able to overpower Kitsuchi's Mountain Jutsu which is even greater than Choji and Choza in size.

A few counters

As this is only the start of the debate I'm not going to spend too long on countering my opponent's initial post. However, there are a couple of things that I'd like to address.

One of these is known as Nakagami Armor which Erza was able to use after releasing her Second Origin. With this, not only does Erza get an incredible boost in power and stats, but the ability of this armor allows her to cut through space itself dispel any and all magic attacks thrown at her.

While this is an impressive armour, Erza not only doesn't use this armor right off the bat in character, but assuming she is willing to, she doesn't have any prior knowledge about how Kamui works nor is she intelligent enough to figure it out. In addition, from what we've seen, the armor allows Erza to cut through the space in front of her, however, Obito's intangibility merely teleports his body parts into another dimension, so it's arguable on whether or not this ability would even counteract his intangibility in the first place.

The power levels really jumped levels during the Alvarez arc and continuing into the sequel. This is especially true for Erza who's feats in both pretty much put all previous to shame. This is with the introduction of the Spriggan 12 who per Mashima,are the strongest villains of the original series.This statement is also consistent with their introduction as Brandish, hermagical power was menacing on an unprecedented leveland we know the Spriggans (bar Irene and August),are relative to one another.Brandish with ease changed the entire landscape of an island by making it bigger many times over.

While I do agree with your placement for Universe 1, I'm not really too sure if Brandish and the rest of the other Spriggan's scaling is really relevant here, as Brandish's size altering of the island doesn't necessarily scale to her AP, since she's not destroying or reconstructing anything there.

Erza straight up blitzed this meteor, she swung her sword right when she was face to face with meteor and intercepted it before it was able to hit the ground. This feat was proved to be a sub-rel feat.

I've always never been a huge fan of using pixel scaling due to the various inconsistencies surrounding it, but from what I'm seeing the calc doesn't seem to go into how much Deus Sema would weigh, which could significantly lower the speed of it. I know this may seem a bit nitpicky, but Erza did perform such a feat while being amped by PoF, which is known to amp characters like Natsu and Erza to absolutely ridiculous degrees in power, so this feat could be argued as an outlier in the end.

Intial Thoughts/Strategy

  • I believe Obito is comparable to, if not faster than Erza in terms of combat speed, this paired with the precognitive abilites of the Sharingan should bridge any possible speed gaps
  • While I do acknowledge that Obito is likely weaker than Erza physically, his stats should still allow him to take hits from her and his wide arsenal makes up for this
  • Erza does not have a solid counter for Kamui nor is she smart enough to figure out how it works so Obito would be able to phase through all her attacks
  • While phasing through her attacks, Obito could either pin her down with black chakra rods and/or finish her off by stealing her soul
  • Erza would be overwhelmed by the Rinnegan's wide array of Jutsu such as the summons, as she would have a tough time fighting them off and trying to keep track of Obito, who once again can take her off guard using Kamui
  • Using both the Rinnegan abilities along with the Gedo Mazo seems unrealistic for Obito, but assuming he does decide to summon the Gedo Mazo, once again, Erza would have a tough time fighting it and trying to keep track of Obito
  • The GM can also steal her soul using the phantom dragons it can produce
  • In worst case scenario, Obito can use Chibaku Tensei or a Full power Shinra Tensei to finish off Erza

And that's my opener done, best of luck to Cosmic!

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Binnk

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@binnk: Looks good. I don't know when I'll post up again but I'll try to make it soon.

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Ugh, it seems some of my links aren't working, and for whatever reason CV isn't letting me save edits. I really hate this site sometimes lol. Apologies everyone, I'll try to get them posted for my next post if possible

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@binnk: Excellent post. I do wonder how Cosmic will fire back.

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@binnk said:

Ugh, it seems some of my links aren't working, and for whatever reason CV isn't letting me save edits. I really hate this site sometimes lol. Apologies everyone, I'll try to get them posted for my next post if possible

been an issue for a while, long CaV posts aren't editable atm, you can copy the whole thing, paste it back and edit the things you wanted to add, then delete the old post. At least, that's how I've been dealing with the issue.

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nice openers

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Return of the Queen - Counterattack 1

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Sorry for the delay, sometimes I have to fight my own laziness XD but here is my post.

Counters to Obito's Strength

Ok before I get into the counters, one thing I saw was that for your strength, you had a very long chain of scaling through multiple other characters. While scaling is not an issue, it's a bit shaky since not a concrete feat for Obito was shown and as you mentioned, he's not a physical fighter.

While Obito isn't necessarily a physical based fighter at all, he's certainly no slouch in this department. For instance, he is capable of trading blows with KCM Naruto, this Naruto should scale significantly above Four Tailed Naruto, as that Naruto during his fight against Orochimaru was able to create shockwaves strong enough to level a large part of the forest they were in and the crater produced dwarfed the small mountains surrounding it. Keep in mind that this feat was performed while Naruto was merely transforming into his 4T state, and this was only a mere fraction of Kuruma's chakra that Naruto had access to at the time, which is nothing in comparison to KCM Naruto, which is the version Obito fought.

So you have Obito scaling over KCM Naruto who is scaling over 4T Naruto. Okay, if that base feat is small mountain level, where would you put Obito? Large mountain? Small island? I've already shown that Erza back in Edolas has a large mountain feat that should be comparable, if not greater, to what you've shown.

As for the crater itself, it's not that great of a feat as you make it seem to be either. From another view, we can see the crater isn't that large to begin with. Creating large-scale shockwaves is something that exists in FT as well, very early on too. Going as far back as the guild war and the fight between Makarov and Jose, creating shockwaves strong enough to "tremble the earth" and reaching Porlysucia. Knowing that shockwaves get weaker the farther they travel, and Porlysucia not being in the same city, it makes the feat comparable to what you've shown.

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As a result of this, Obito should scale to the likes of Pain in terms of pure physicals (at bare minimum, the weaker ones), as one of the weakeer paths was able to tank a kick from Jiraiya, who in turn should be a mountain level character, as his Rasengan is said to be able tocarve through mountains, while using Sage Mode, Jiraiya's physicals are enhanced further, and as such he was able to kick away one of Pain's summons with his physical strength alone, and was able to create a hole that was much larger than the pipes he was trying to escape through.

Are there any feats of Jiraiya being able to carve through mountains? This is pre-timeskip level, Erza's physicals scale to Irene's attacks which are many times above mountain level to an absurd degree.

Jiraiya's feat alone should be a casual hill level feat, which would make Jiraiya a solid mountain level+ character. In addition to this, Obito was able to take a Rasengan from both KCM Naruto and Base Minato, both Rasengans should once again scale to Jiraiya's own mountain+ level Rasengan. I'd also like to point out that KCM Naruto's rasengan should scale above Sage Naruto's Rasengan, which in turn was stated to havesurpassed Jiraiya's in power.

So Jiraiya has a hill level feat, making him mountain level? I don't get that. Even if I was to accept this, all it would do is make Obito's physicals mountain level at best which is one-shot for Erza.

Going back to Obito's fight with Naruto and Guy, in the scan above, Naruto is visibly getting overpowered physically by Obito, claiming that he's so strong he can't find the opportunity to attack, this version of Naruto, combined with attacks from Itachi and Bee was able to overpower Nagato's Chibaku Tensei, and was able to come out of the resulting explosion unscathed. The resulting explosion was big enough to be comparable to the surrounding mountain range around it. A normal Bijuudama is capable of leveling multiple mountains alone, this combined with Naruto's Rasenshuriken and Itachi's Magatama overpowering the gravitational pull of CT's core should put KCM Naruto somewhere in the higher ends of the Island level range.

Well that was one hell of a long scaling chain huh? With this I believe we can conclude that Obito's physicals should be in the Island - Large Island level range easily, once again, Obito is not a physical based fighter as he mostly relies on his versatility and hax which I will cover later on in this post.

This is the feat you're talking about:

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I don't see how Obito overpowering Naruto means he scales to the attack you mention or anywhere close. It's not like Naruto caused the explosion on his own, it took the combined power of three attacks, one of which was from another tailed beast. Plus, that resulting explosion from the attack only affected a small area of the forest. The nearby trees and mountains were just fine.

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All these + the Bijuudamas are shown to be mountain level attacks. Just for a point of comparison, Motherglare's roar has shown similar power by destroying multiple mountains and causing destruction to the nearby environment.

As it stands right now, the feats you've shown for Obito are pre-timeskip levels of power which is fodder to Erza. Current Erza should have no problem one-shotting Obito with this + speed which I'll talk about next.

Counters to Obito's Speed

This section should be fairly straightforward, as Obito is able to react to attacks from both KCM Naruto (shown above) and BM Naruto. Shortly after Naruto unlocked KCM, he was able to not only react to, but blitz the Raikage's Lariat at point blank range, this Jutsu was stated to enhance the Raikage's speed to "near lightspeed". "Near lightspeed' can vary as it could be as low as 1% the SOL, putting this feat at Sub-Relativistic at bare minimum.

Yea so I'm taking the databook statement with a grain of salt. Mainly because the databooks are quite notorious for their use of hyperbole such as omnipotent Kakashi and universal Temari. Both of which are more outlandish than the next.

Plus, it makes even more sense to be hyperbole with the way it's worded. "Near light-speed" is such a massive range so there's no way to know whether it's sub-rel or rel+.

As for BM Naruto, as soon as he unlocked the form, Naruto wasable to intercept 5 Bijuudama at point blank rangeand send them all in different directions. What's impressive about this feat is that the Bijuudama, even after having their trajectory changed by Hashirama's Rashomon Gates were still fast enough to cross an ocean all the way to the opposite coastline over a couple seconds, which is at least a quad mach feat. Even more impressive is that Obito himself was able to react to a Bijuudama as shown in the scans posted above. It should be noted that BM Naruto scales above KCM in terms of speed significantly.

Now this is where you go backwards. First you try arguing that Obito is at the minimum sub-rel but in this feat you're showing, it's a MHS+ feat which is slower. MHS+ is far too slow for Erza considering that Deus Sema was a sub-rel feat and she was fatigued and had all her bones broken.

With this in mind, I would personally have Obito within the Relativistic range in terms of speed, which is definitely more than enough to keep up with the likes of Erza in this fight

0 feats were shown by you to put Obito at relativistic. The only feat that was shown is MHS+ which is far too slow to compete with Erza.

With the strength and speed sections down, I don't see why Erza doesn't just one-shot Obito.

Eye Illusions and Such

Being a member of the Uchiha Clan, Obito has access to his clan's infamous Kekkei Genkai known as the Sharingan. The Sharingan, when activated, grants the user enhanced reaction speed and perception. To put into perspective as to how big a boost this eye gives the user, during Naruto and Sasuke's first major battle in the series, Sasuke, after fully maturing his Sharingan, went from being barely able to keep up with a Nine Tails chakra amped Naruto to being able to predict what Naruto was going to do next, as if he could see slightly ahead into the future.

It's not like Sasuke was a complete statue to begin with, he was always able to keep up.

One of the most basic Sharingan abilities is the ability known as Genjutsu, which I'm sure many of you are familiar with. Genjutsu allows the user to put their target under an illusion as a form of immobilization or as a way to control people and gather information. Obito's Genjutsu potency is no joke either, as he was able to put the 4th Mizukage, Isobu under his control, Isobu is also a Jinchuriki, who are known to have ridiculously ahigh Genjutsu resistance,showing that Obito's Genjutsu potency is incredibly strong for an Uchiha.

So here we get into the bread and butter of your argument. While I will admit that dealing with the Sharingan and Rinnegan. Given the nature of Erza's character, she has a fake eye meaning that illusions and the such aren't as potent on her as they are normally. First showing is when she was completely immune to Evergreen's stone eyes.

Here we have a scenario in which Erza is completely able to withstand Midnights illusions almost immediately because optical magic doesn't work on her. What makes this feat even more special is that Jellal, an incredibly strong character in his own right, was shocked to see her overpower it seeing as how it affected him too.

Similarly, when fighting Kyokya, she was able to continually fight despite being affected by the latter's enhancement curse. So while not completely like the Sharingan, Erza has shown to not only counter optical illusions, but also fight through the enhancement of her pain many times over. In fact, she was able to fight through having all 5 of her sense removed from her so she ends up developing a sixth sense.

Combine this with the speed gap and Erza doesn't have much to worry about.

Now this is where things get really interesting and is one of the reasons I wanted to represent Obito in this debate. After evolving his Sharingan into the Mangekyo Sharingan, Obito was granted the powerful ability known as Kamui, and his usage of this ability is basically his main form of combat. This ability allows Obito to transport objects and people in and out of his own pocket dimension from a short distance, as I'm aware victory by BFR is restricted for the sake of this debate, I will not use this as a win condition for Obito, but the ability to eject objects out of the Kamui Dimension will surely be useful, as shown by him shooting out projectiles strong enough to slice through the Eight Tails' Tail like butter, which is impressive as all the Bijuu are capable of leveling mountains with ease, putting them somwhere in the Island level range.

Is there a reason as to why her Nakagami armour wouldn't counter Kamui? Cutting through space itself, an intangible property, is something that Erza is capable of doing. Even then, being able to cut through spatial dimensions is something that has been shown early on in the series.

Now ejecting weapons in and out of the dimensions is not a problem either. Erza specifically can summon hundreds of her swords and weapons at once with ease whether it be against Acnologia or Evergreen; Erza can just keep deflecting those projectiles you talk about easily with her Blumenblatt which can match country level attacks.

Obito will be forced into a proper battle where he is completely outclassed. Now Kamui itself has a couple weaknesses in and of itself, Obito can only phase through things for 5 minutes and while this is happening, he can't use it for teleportation.

Not to mention, Obito has to make contact with his opponent before he can phase through their attacks and Obito also has to become solid in order to attack his opponent and make contact.

Back to the 5 minutes rule, it'll take a lot longer than 5 minutes to put down Erza. Look towards the latest chapter when Erza fought Misaki. 5 seconds in Misaki's blue dimension (which was described as her own unique space) is 5 hours in the real world of torture and damage yet she was still able to get up and fight.

As for the speed of Kamui, Obito was able to activate it while the Raikage was charging towards him at near lightspeed without much trouble, putting the speed of Kamui anywhere from Sub-Rel to Relativistic, which is further backed by the scans above that show Obito casually reacting to quite casually.

I've already debunked this notion of the Raikage's Lariat being LS so sub-rel Obito and by extensions, sub-rel Kamui is wrong. Obito isn't going to be fast enough to use it before he gets pasted.

In addition, Obito is able to quite freely move around in the air with Kamui, as sort of a pseudo method of flight, further showing his prowess with this ability, this would allow him to levitate in the air while raining down projectiles against his opponent.

Acnologia can also fly. This ability with Kamui is honestly useless since Erza can summon hundreds of weapons instantly from all directions with ease.

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Rinnegan Shenanigans

With the Deva Path, Obito creates a repulsive force able to blow away anything in its vicinity, he is able to alter the size of this force in order to avoid hitting allies with it. This ability is quite useful, as Obito would be able to repel both physical attacks and Ninjutsu.

With each use of ST, there is a 5 second cooldown in between, however this cooldown does depend on how strong the ST is when used. The strength of a Shinra Tensei can vary depending on how much chakra is put into it, as the strongest ST used by the Deva Path was able to destroy basically all of Konoha, completely devastating several kilometers worth of land in a few seconds

This repulsive force also seems to be omni directional, being able to repel attacks from all directions, with a casual ST being able to level a good chunk of Konoha, which would be around MCB in terms of range.

Regarding ST, as you said the more power Obito puts into it, the more energy he has to exhaust. Given Erza's prowess as I've shown, and with the 5 second cooldown in between, Erza can easily attack Obito and overwhelm him. The ST that was used on Konoha just left a large crater but that's about it. Even Konan comments on how risky it would be.

It also isn't in Obito's character to continually spam as he would just exhaust his chakra supply from the beginning.

This ability is quite simple, as it is the complete opposite of ST, allowing the user to attract anything in their vicinity towards them

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Chibaku Tensei

Probably one of the strongest Jutsu in Obito's arsenal, Chibaku Tensei allows Obito to create a black sphere which then ascends to the sky while drawing in its surroundings. The gravitational force of the sphere is so strong that it can literally rip apart mountains, the crater that was created from the sphere was larger than an entire mountain range, which is an easy Island level feat. What's even crazier is that Nagato when he used it actually wanted to enlarge it before the nine tails broke out of it, implying that it can be even larger than what was shown.

Now while the Jutsu does have a weakness, that being the sphere, it took the strongest attacks from KCM Naruto, Bee and Itachi to breach the rock formation surrounding it in order to destroy it completely. What's interesting here, is that not even a barrage of Bijuudama from KN6 Naruto was able to destroy an incomplete rock formation

What makes this gravitational pull greater than of Bluenote? Bluenote, who was strong enough to fight Gildarts, was able to affect all of Tenrou island with his gravity. As for Pain's repulsion jutsu, it's directly stated that he needs a moment to recharge so it's not a continuous effect.

Base Natsu over the 1 year timeskip, who's weaker than Erza, can casually overpower Bluenote's gravity like nothing.

The weakness can also be exploited by Erza given the nature of her magic. Summoning hundreds of swords and weapons and using them all instantly to destroy the sphere should do the trick seeing as how the destruction of said sphere caused minimal destruction to the landscape overall.

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Animal Path

This might just be one of the most useful paths that Obito has access to and I have no doubt it would give Erza a run for her money either. This path allows the user to summon different types of creatures, as well as summon multiple creatures at the same time. These creatures can also be re summoned once they are destroyed. The main strategy by using this path is to overwhelm opponents by using a barrage of summons.

Giant Chimera

This summon is quite deadly, as it grows larger with the more damage it takes so opponents would have quite a tough time putting it down, and the only way to destroy it for good is by attacking the summoner directly. However with ohter summons on the battlefield, this is no easy task by any means. This summon is quite tanky too, as it was able to take multiple elemental jutsu from the Anbu, as well as a giant Rasengan from KCM Naruto.

Giant Drill Beaked Bird

This path grants the user the advantage of flight, furthermore, this bird is also capable of a strong piercing attack with its beak

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Giant Chameleon

This is probably the most useful summon in Obito's arsenal as it allows for him to move around the battlefield while completely invisible while at the same time being able to use other Jutsu, as seen when he used a ST while invisible. This summon also has a tail that is capable of restricting movement.

Giant Panda

User summons a giant panda that is capable of hardening it's body which in turn creates an effective defense for the suer

Now while the Animal Path does have more summons that this, I believe that the above summons are probably the most versatile and useful for this battle, so for now I'll only mention these ones for the sake of simplicity

Naraka Path

Finally, we have the Naraka Path, while this ability may not seem as useful as the other paths, it would still come in quite handy in this fight.

This path allows the user to interrogate their opponent, the user only needs to restrain their opponent first and summon the King of Hell to question them, once answers are provided, the KOH releases its tendrils from its mouth and suck up the victim's life force, if the person was lying or refused to answer anything, the KOH would then consume the victim's life force, thereby killing them instantly. If they told the truth, they would live but come out quite exhausted

Another handy ability is the ability to repair damages. Once again summoning the King of Hell, it would then ingest a body, after some time the body would then be appear outside the KOH's mouth completely rejuvenated and without a single scratch. This ability would prove quite handy if Obito were to sustain any significant damage in this fight

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Is it in Obito's character to summon these? Because so far, all you've shown is Pain using it and if you're going to criticize Erza for not using Nakagami IC, then I'll apply the same scrutiny as you. But for the sake of the argument, I'll counter these abilities. The animal summoning's such as the Bird's beak and the giant Chimera, how fast are they? I've not seen anything that says they don't get blitzed and destroyed by Erza.

The Naraka path would be a threat ifit could tag Erza which I don't think it can since you must make direct contact with your opponent to interrogate them. Kakashi was able to create a lightning style doppelganger in time before the Naraka path was able to inflict damage while Pain casted BT.

I have 0 doubt in my mind that Erza can blitz any of the 6 paths, seeing as how Sage Mode Naruto easily did.

Human Path

This path is probably one of the most dangerous abilities that anybody would have to go up against. As the ability allows the user to rip the souls and read the minds of their opponents.

By placing their hand on their opponent's head, the user forces them into a nigh comatose state where they cannot move or cast any Jutsu, thereby exposing them to another follow up attack.

Additionally, the user is capable of ripping out the souls of their opponent just by making contact with them, as shown when Nagato used it against KCM Naruto

Without basic knowledge, this ability would prove deadly for any fighter, as one wrong move and they would be immobilized and find their soul being sucked with nothing they can do about it.

The human path nor Obito are fast enough to directly put their hand on Erza's head long enough for them to rip her soul out. I think I've already shown why.

Countering Gedo Mazo

Obito's summon, the Gedo Mazo is the husk of the Ten Tails after the extraction of its Chakra. This summon is quite impressive, as when Nagato initially summoned it, the Gedo Mazo was able to instantly drain the souls of its targets by producing phantom dragons that don't even need to make physical contact with their targets. It can also produce chakra chains that immobilise targets, as well as lightning bolts that can cause some AOE damage.

How fast is the Gedo Mazo statue? I ask because you say it doesn't need to make physical contact but in the very same scans you show, 8 Tails directly says "don't let it touch you" and the dragons are seen to make contact before ripping their souls out. Notice how a ninja even says, "run. If it touches you, you die."

The lightning can be countered by Erza's lightning empress armour which will reduce the effects of said lightning by at least 50%.

Its physical might is nothing to scoff at either, as it was able to shrug off attacks from a mountain sized Choji and Choza as well as produce a chakra blast strong enough that it is comparable to, if not greater than both of them in size. Additionally, it was able to overpower Kitsuchi's Mountain Jutsu which is even greater than Choji and Choza in size.

What this shows is that it's durability is mountain level, so a barrage of attacks from Erza would easily destroy it. Choji, visually speaking, isn't that large either. Unless there's direct confirmation that I'm missing, his size seems to be relative of a small mountain.

Maintaining my Arguments

While this is an impressive armour, Erza not only doesn't use this armor right off the bat in character, but assuming she is willing to, she doesn't have any prior knowledge about how Kamui works nor is she intelligent enough to figure it out. In addition, from what we've seen, the armor allows Erza to cut through the space in front of her, however, Obito's intangibility merely teleports his body parts into another dimension, so it's arguable on whether or not this ability would even counteract his intangibility in the first place.

This is just borderline wrong, Erza is very intelligent. I've shown her figuring out Midnight's ability within seconds which shocked both Midnight and Jellal.

The whole IC character can be applied to you which renders all of the paths you've shown borderline useless since Obito doesn't use them off the bat either. The difference is that Erza has used it on more than one occasion, the first being against Minerva and the other against Ajeel.

Nakagami cuts through space itself and the direction is wherever she swings. If she's aiming for Obito, how is Obito going to deal with that?

While I do agree with your placement for Universe 1, I'm not really too sure if Brandish and the rest of the other Spriggan's scaling is really relevant here, as Brandish's size altering of the island doesn't necessarily scale to her AP, since she's not destroying or reconstructing anything there.

I wasn't really relating the power to AP, I was trying to point out the power creep that occurred between Tartaros and Alvarez.

I've always never been a huge fan of using pixel scaling due to the various inconsistencies surrounding it, but from what I'm seeing the calc doesn't seem to go into how much Deus Sema would weigh, which could significantly lower the speed of it. I know this may seem a bit nitpicky, but Erza did perform such a feat while being amped by PoF, which is known to amp characters like Natsu and Erza to absolutely ridiculous degrees in power, so this feat could be argued as an outlier in the end.

According to the American Meteor Society, if it's over 1000 tons (which would be silly to think otherwise since objects like cargo ships weigh more than 1000 tons) still retain 70% of their original velocity putting the feat at sub-rel still.

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I'm also against PoF being used as a legit argument since PoF is a common theme for many characters throughout the series. Plus, Erza has similar feats such as being able to cut Irene and cause so much damage, she forcefully knocks her out of her dragon form.

Conclusion

Again, my apologies for taking so much time to finish this counter. The way I see it, you have not shown the strength/durability feats nor the speed feats that show Obito is capable of keeping up with Erza or even surviving any of her attacks. Obito's eyes are a bit of an issue but as shown, they have their own drawbacks and Erza has her way of dealing with them. The way things are as of now, I still maintain that Erza can easily stomp Obito.

On to you!

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Good stuff, my counters might take a while though since I'm pretty busy with schoolwork these days

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#50  Edited By Binnk

The Uchiha's Curse: Counters

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Counters

A few things

This sandstorm was very large and I'd say it's large island sized as it was deployed in Magnolia and was able to reach Bisca and co whowere in the Eastern woods.Using a map of Fiore, we can see that the distance between Magnolia and the Eastern woods, is comparable to that of Magnolia to Hargeonwhich is 370 km. Erza was able todisperse this sandstorm in an instantwhich is an incredible feat.

The thing with this feat, is that Erza didn't disperse the sandstorm like you suggest, as the sandstorm only started to dissapear once Bisca fired the Jupiter Cannon, as shown in the scans below. In scan 2, we can clearly see the sandstorm dissapearing on the top right, which is before Erza uses the Nakagami armour

Onto speed, Laxus' lightning has shown to emulate real life lightning on multiple occasion. When Laxus threw his lightning halberd at Natsu,Gajeel was able to redirect the attack to him by turning himself into a lightning rod.Laxus was able to intercept Hades before he was able to fire off his bullets on Natsu when he was right in front of him. During Alvarez, Laxus was able to summon lightning to intercept and destroy Wahl's enhanced bullet attacks which were launched at point blank range.

I'd like to address your Wahl scaling here, as I myself am guilty of using this same feat before lol. For instance, the bullets being destroyed and the lightning bolt summoned by Laxus occur within different timeframes, as Laxus typically motions his hand upwards in order to call down lightning from the sky. Here, we can clearly see him just standing there letting his aura destroy the bullets at first, in the next panel we can see Laxus' facial expression change with motion lines present, implying he casted another spell. This in turn means Laxus summoned that bolt of lightning AFTER the bullets were destroyed.

As for your point with Hades, travelling as a lightning bolt doesn't necessarily mean your combat speed would also be lightning speed, since we know travel speed =/= combat speed. In addition, the thing with Gajeel's iron rod wouldn't really work either since lightning is when energy flows along electrons, so it would take the shortest path to the nearest set of electrons or a conductor, even with the amount of iron Gajeel made at that moment the lightning wouldn't just suddenly change directions like that.

With this in mind, along with the inconsistency of Erza's Deus Sema feat, I believe she is considerably slower than where you seem to place her, which should be no problem for Obito in this fight

Strength/Dura Rebuttals

I'll try not to spend as much time on this section since as I've stated previously, Obito isn't a physical based fighter, but just to address a couple things:

So you have Obito scaling over KCM Naruto who is scaling over 4T Naruto. Okay, if that base feat is small mountain level, where would you put Obito? Large mountain? Small island? I've already shown that Erza back in Edolas has a large mountain feat that should be comparable, if not greater, to what you've shown.

I was simply using this feat to establish a scaling chain, if Naruto, while only having access to a tiny piece of Kurama's Chakra was able to perform such a feat with a mere shockwave (not even a physical strike, mind you), then the version of Naruto that Obito faced in the war would be able to easily replicate and surpass such a feat as he has access to the full power of Kurama's Chakra by that point in the story. This is further supported by the fact that Naruto was able to perform a similar feat against Orochimaru with a single swipe of his arm, which caused yet another shockwave covering a considerable distance.

As for the crater itself, it's not that great of a feat as you make it seem to be either. From another view, we can see the crater isn't that large to begin with. Creating large-scale shockwaves is something that exists in FT as well, very early on too. Going as far back as the guild war and the fight between Makarov and Jose, creating shockwaves strong enough to "tremble the earth" and reaching Porlysucia. Knowing that shockwaves get weaker the farther they travel, and Porlysucia not being in the same city, it makes the feat comparable to what you've shown.

I mostly chose to highlight this feat in particular due to how casually it was performed, and additionally, I'm not too sure if we can really compare this feat to the feat performed by Makarov and Jose, since Porylusca doesn't live in a different city at all, in fact, it's stated that she lives in the Eastern Woods of Magnolia. In addition, Warren, who's telapathy extends up to 5km was still able to reach Bisca during Alvarez while she was in the exact same woods, we also still have Bisca's group being able to see everything happening in Magnolia, further supporting the notion that the eastern woods really aren't that far from town

Are there any feats of Jiraiya being able to carve through mountains? This is pre-timeskip level, Erza's physicals scale to Irene's attacks which are many times above mountain level to an absurd degree.

I've shown previously that with Jiraiya's casual hill level feat of knocking away the summon, his strongest attacks should logically scale above that, so his Rasengan being able to carve through mountains isn't out of the ordinary at all. If we're talking about the fight in Alvarez, I disagree with Erza scaling to Irene, since for most of their fight, she was getting dominated for the most part, with Irene brushing off most of her attacks and needed Wendy's assistance just to get a good hit in.

So Jiraiya has a hill level feat, making him mountain level? I don't get that. Even if I was to accept this, all it would do is make Obito's physicals mountain level at best which is one-shot for Erza.

The fact that Jiraiya performed the feat so casually would make him a mountain level character, and I've shown in my opener that Obito scales massively above this version of Jiraiya, so he wouldn't be capped at just mountain level.

I don't see how Obito overpowering Naruto means he scales to the attack you mention or anywhere close. It's not like Naruto caused the explosion on his own, it took the combined power of three attacks, one of which was from another tailed beast. Plus, that resulting explosion from the attack only affected a small area of the forest. The nearby trees and mountains were just fine.

The power of the explosion was contained due to the CT's gravitational sphere pulling their attacks in, even then, the resulting explosion in terms of size was still comparable to the mountain range behind it, not to mention Naruto was basically in the centre of the explosion yet he still shrugged it off without much damage, which puts his durability within that range, if not above. The fact that Obito was able to physically contend and even overpower this Naruto is even more impressive.

Speed Rebuttals

Yea so I'm taking the databook statement with a grain of salt. Mainly because the databooks are quite notorious for their use of hyperbole such as omnipotent Kakashi and universal Temari. Both of which are more outlandish than the next.

Plus, it makes evenmore sense to be hyperbole with the way it's worded. "Near light-speed" is such a massive range so there's no way to know whether it's sub-rel or rel+.

I see what you mean, however, the universal Temari stuff was confirmed to be a mistranslation a while ago, with the translator misinterpreting the kanji "sekai" as "universe". The actual translation is “The fierce tornado that blows the entire world away!.” as in, she surprised the world with her power, not literally destroy it. As for omnipotent Kakashi, this is yet another mistranslation from fans, since the actual databook doesn't mention "omnipotence" anywhere. Another definition for omnipotence is to have great power and influence over something, not just having unlimited power. So overall, the databook is a pretty reliable source as long as we don't misinterpret certain statements

As for the speed of Lariat, I wouldn't consider this to be an outlier at all. For instance, Kakashi's Raikiri is said to be able to cut a lightning bolt in half, I am aware that we don't actually see how Kakashi cuts this bolt of lightning in the manga, but it is a fact that the Jutsu massively boosts the speed of the user, to the point it cannot be safely used without the prowess of the Sharingan. In addition, Kakashi was able to intercept and counter Kakuzu's False Darkness jutsu before it reached Team 10. The databook refers to the Jutsu as "lightning bolts" and emphasises the difficulty of dodging it, strongly implying that it indeed moves at the speed of lightning.

Moreover, taking a look at the Sasuke vs Itachi fight, in order to cast Kirin, Sasuke manipulates natural Lightning. According to Zetsu, lightning strikes at 1/1000th of a second which Itachi wouldn't be able to dodge. He was proven wrong however, as Itachi was able to prop up a Susanoo to defend himself just in time. Keep in mind he did this while sick, low on Chakra and partially blind, and it's strongly implied he activated Susanoo just before Kirin made contact with him, explaining why both Sasuke and Zetsu mentioned seeing anything beforehand.

Depending on the size of the mountain the Uchiha hideout was on, this feat can vary between mid end 3 to 4 digit mach.

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Sasuke, someone in a far better state than Itachi was in this scene, was barely able to even keep up with the Raikage with his eyes, as the Raikage was even able to dodge Amaterasu, which is also said to be an undodgeable Jutsu similar to Kirin, and even blitz him, proving that the Raikage is above lightning timing speeds, which is further backed by Cee stating that Sasuke wasn't able to keep up even with the aid of the Sharingan.

So with this, we can clearly see that both a sick, dying Itachi and a pre BOS Kakashi are able to react to lightning speed attacks, so it would make zero sense for the Raikage to be capped at these speeds, further supporting the databook statement putting him at near lightspeed.

Now this is where you go backwards. First you try arguing that Obito is at the minimum sub-rel but in this feat you're showing, it's a MHS+ feat which is slower. MHS+ is far too slow for Erza considering that Deus Sema was a sub-rel feat and she was fatigued and had all her bones broken.

I simply used this feat to further support Obito being at Sub-Rel at bare minimum, as Naruto just unlocked BM and still casually performed this feat of intercepting the Bijuudama. This is further supported by Obito reacting to a Bijuudama without any issue, KCM Naruto blitzing a Sub-Rel attack from the Raikage which was mere inches away from his face, and Obito keeping up with said version of Naruto as well as a stronger version of Naruto (BM), which should prove that Obito is within the Relativistic range of speed.

Sharingan Rebuttals

It's not like Sasuke was a complete statue to begin with, he was always able to keep up.

Not necessarily, when Naruto first uses Nine Tails Chakra, he was blitzing Sasuke around, with Sasuke himself admitting Naruto was too fast for him and was only able to keep up with him once his Sharingan fully matured

So here we get into the bread and butter of your argument. While I will admit that dealing with the Sharingan and Rinnegan. Given the nature of Erza's character, she has a fake eye meaning that illusions and the such aren't as potent on her as they are normally.First showing is when she was completely immune to Evergreen's stone eyes.

I don't think Erza was "completely immune" to Evergreen's ability at all, since at the beginning of the arc she was turned into a statue and was only freed because of the fake eye

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Here we have a scenario in which Erza is completely able to withstand Midnights illusions almost immediately because optical magic doesn't work on her. What makes this feat even more special is that Jellal, an incredibly strong character in his own right, was shocked to see her overpower it seeing as how it affected him too.

Midnight's illusions and Genjutsu work pretty differently. First of all, Midnight's "illusions" are more like mirages, or visual tricks, they don't manipulate any of the senses or the mind of the person they are used on, Midnight merely uses his reflector magic to refract and twist light which forms these images meaning they aren't as potent as a Genjutsu at all. Second of all, even just basic Genjutsu can manipulate the five senses, so just imagine the potency of Genjutsu from a Sharingan or even a Mangekyo. Considering this is a random encounter and Erza wouldn't know how to deal with a Genjutsu from an Uchiha, I highly doubt Erza would resist falling for one or know how to break out of one, since you can't break out of a Genjutsu by just overpowering it.

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Similarly, when fighting Kyokya, she was able to continually fight despite being affected by the latter's enhancement curse. So while not completely like the Sharingan, Erza has shown to not only counter optical illusions, but also fight through the enhancement of her pain many times over. In fact, she was able to fight through having all 5 of her sense removed from her so she ends up developing a sixth sense.

I'm not sure if we can attribute Erza beating Kyouka purely because she developed a "sixth sense", as this seems to just be a theory as to how Erza was still able to get up by Lily and Happy, secondly, a major reason why she was able to still fight is because of her high pain tolerance, Genjutsu attacks the mind, so the affected person doesn't experience any real physical pain, so it's fundamentally different from Kyouka's enchancement.

Is there a reason as to why her Nakagami armour wouldn't counter Kamui? Cutting through space itself, an intangible property, is something that Erza is capable of doing. Even then, being able to cut through spatial dimensions is something that has been shown early on in the series.

Actually, something I found while re-reading the Erza vs Minerva fight, is that it was Elfman who theorized Erza being able to cut space, so the idea she can do such a thing with this armour is also questionable, in addition, when Levy reads the actual description for the armour, it is said that the armour cuts through and dispels magic, not space, so it acts as a sort of anti magic armour instead. Energies aren't equalised here, meaning this magic dispersion wouldn't even work in the first place. Even if I were to accept Erza being able to cut through space, Kamui is a teleportation Jutsu, meaning it teleports Obito's body parts into another dimension, so I highly doubt Erza would even know or be able to cut through it just by swinging at him.

Now ejecting weapons in and out of the dimensions is not a problem either. Erza specifically can summon hundreds of her swords and weapons at once with ease whether it be against Acnologia or Evergreen; Erza can just keep deflecting those projectiles you talk about easily with her Blumenblatt which can match country level attacks.

True, however Obito still has a wide arsenal of other Jutsu such as his fireball techniques or even Wood Style due to him having some of Hashirama's cells, his wood style is strong enough to hold BM Naruto for a bit, so in addition to being able to keep Erza busy by summoning weapons via Kamui, he still has access to all these Jutsu, not to mention the Rinnegan and its wide array of abilities, meaning Erza would have to deal with giant shuriken, fire jutsu and wood style being thrown at her while having to worry about other things such as the invisible chameleon or other Animal Path summons

Obito will be forced into a proper battle where he is completely outclassed. Now Kamui itself has a couple weaknesses in and of itself, Obito can only phase through things for 5 minutes and while this is happening, he can't use it for teleportation.

Not to mention, Obito has to make contact with his opponent before he can phase through their attacks and Obito also has to become solid in order to attack his opponent and make contact.

True, however this five minute weakness only applies if Obito plans on staying intangible for five minutes straight. Obito isn't going to just stay intangible for that long as he will be attacking Erza while turning Kamui on and off to maneuver around her attacks. And as I've shown above, Obito isn't far weaker than Erza in terms of stats, with the aid of the Sharingan's precog and his comparable, if not superior speed, making contact with Erza wouldn't be a problem at all since she won't be hitting him.

Back to the 5 minutes rule, it'll take a lot longer than 5 minutes to put down Erza. Look towards the latest chapter when Erza fought Misaki. 5 seconds in Misaki's blue dimension (which was described as her own unique space) is 5 hours in the real world of torture and damage yet she was still able to get up and fight.

Impressive, but Misaki seems like the type of character to toy around with her enemies, and Blue Stream seems to just be a wave of attacks, as if Erza was getting cut/attacked by the same spell over and over again, so I'm not sure if her endurance would hold up if she was being attacked non stop by a wave of different Jutsu such as Almighty Push

Acnologia can also fly. This ability with Kamui is honestly useless since Erza can summon hundreds of weapons instantly from all directions with ease.how fast you would have these swords?

How fast would you say these weapons are? Is there a reason why Obito couldn't just repel all of these weapons with a charged up Shinra Tensei, suck them up with Kamui, stay intangible or just teleport and reappear behind her? IIRC it wouldn't really take long for these swords to fall and it would take a considerable amount of magic from Erza.

Rinnegan Rebuttals

Regarding ST, as you said the more power Obito puts into it, the more energy he has to exhaust. Given Erza's prowess as I've shown, and with the 5 second cooldown in between, Erza can easily attack Obito and overwhelm him. The ST that was used on Konoha just left a large crater but that's about it. Even Konan comments on how risky it would be.

It also isn't in Obito's character to continually spam as he would just exhaust his chakra supply from the beginning.

I disagree with Erza figuring out how ST works for a few reasons. Not only would she have to also deal with Obito phasing through her attacks as well as the other paths' abilities, but Kakashi, someone who is renowned for his strategical and tactial genius on the battlefield, was only able to figure out the Deva's abilities due to having prior knowledge from Fukasaku, something Erza doesn't have here, and the assistance of Choji and Choza. And Obito doesn't need to continually spam the Deva's abilities as he still can use Kamui and the other Paths' abilities in conjunction. Chakra won't exactly be an issue here either, considering the part of Zetsu attached to his body allows him to perform tasks that would normally be quite taxing, for instance during the war he was able to control the Jinchuuriki and the Gedo Mazo, both of which take a considerable amount of chakra, yet afterwards he was still able to continuously use Kamui.

What makes this gravitational pull greater than of Bluenote? Bluenote, who was strong enough to fight Gildarts, was able to affect all of Tenrou island with his gravity. As for Pain's repulsion jutsu, it's directly stated that he needs a moment to recharge so it's not a continuous effect.

The gravitational pull of CT's core is strong enough to literally rip apart mountains and create a rock formation that leaves a crater wider than an entire mountain range, Naruto himself states that once you're caught in the jutsu there's basically no escape unless of course you figure out its weakness in time, so yes, I would argue it is stronger than Bluenote's gravity. Bluenote's gravity does not really impressive as much considering all you need to be able to do in order to resist it is have a similar amount of MP as him, and although it did affect all of Tenrou, IIRC the FT members that weren't at the site of the fight were still able to move pretty normally. In the scan you provided, Choza himself states that the interval between each repulsion is so brief that it's still risky to attack, so this shouldn't be an issue especially since I doubt Erza would be able to deduce said interval.

The weakness can also be exploited by Erza given the nature of her magic. Summoning hundreds of swords and weapons and using them all instantly to destroy the sphere should do the trick seeing as how the destruction of said sphere caused minimal destruction to the landscape overall.

That is assuming Erza can figure out CT's weakness on time before she gets crushed under several layers of large mountain sized rocks, which is unlikely as this is a random encounter. She would most likely be distracted by the orb pulling the environment around her towards it the moment Obito casts it, and how would she know that you would need to destroy the core in the first place to cancel the Jutsu? Naruto, a shinobi that is quite analytical and strategic himself could not figure this weakness out and the trio needed Itachi's assistance to know that they had to destroy the core. Additionally, Naruto, Bee and Itachi's attacks were all energy based attacks that detonated, in turn destroying the core, I'm pretty sure Erza's swords are still physical constructs at the end of the day and would probably just get pulled in as extra mass for the CT formation.

Is it in Obito's character to summon these? Because so far, all you've shown is Pain using it and if you're going to criticize Erza for not using Nakagami IC, then I'll apply the same scrutiny as you. But for the sake of the argument, I'll counter these abilities. The animal summoning's such as the Bird's beak and the giant Chimera, how fast are they? I've not seen anything that says they don't get blitzed and destroyed by Erza.

I mean, Obito during the war was willing to use the Rinnegan to control the six Jinchuuriki he had at his disposal and is known for being an intelligent combatant, willing to use any resources at his disposal, so it would make more sense for him to use the Rinnegan abilities if he is able to use them, as during the war he was more focused on controlling the Jinchuriki and the Gedo Mazo instead of using the Paths. He also became the Juubi Jinchuriki before he ever got the chance to use the Rinnegan abilities.

Without the six Jinchuriki however, he should logically be more willing to use the animal path's summons as a substitute, to answer your question about the summons, they are controlled by the Rinnegan user through the black receivers inside them, meaning they should scale to the user in terms of speed too. The main tactic for the summons is to just overwhelm opponents through sheer numbers, which is aided by the Chimera, as it can not only split itself into multiple dogs, but it can't be put down unless the summoner is attacked directly, being able to tank a Giant Rasengan from KCM Naruto. In addition, the summons can be resummoned if they are killed. So while Erza is being distracted by these summons and trying to figure out a way to put them down permanently, Obito could use another Jutsu or stab her with a rod while she's being overwhelmed.

The Naraka path would be a threat ifit could tag Erza which I don't think it can since you must make direct contact with your opponent to interrogate them. Kakashi was able to create a lightning style doppelganger in time before the Naraka path was able to inflict damage while Pain casted BT.

I believe you're confusing the Asura and Naraka Paths in your scans there, Kakashi saved himself from getting stabbed by the Asura path in that instance. And tagging Erza shouldn't be a problem, as Obito could use the invisible chameleon to restrain Erza, and while she's off guard, begin tugging at her soul. As shown by Nagato, you don't to question someone in order to use the ability

I have 0 doubt in my mind that Erza can blitz any of the 6 paths, seeing as how Sage Mode Naruto easily did.

I'm not saying Obito is actually summoning the six paths, I'm just saying he can use their abilities on his own. I've already shown that Obito is comparable if not superior to Erza in terms of speed, so she's not blitzing him at all.

Defending the Gedo Mazo

How fast is the Gedo Mazo statue? I ask because you say it doesn't need to make physical contact but in the very same scans you show, 8 Tails directly says "don't let it touch you" and the dragons are seen to make contact before ripping their souls out. Notice how a ninja even says, "run. If it touches you, you die."

The Gedo Mazo isn't really meant to be a fast summon, as it mostly remains stationary while launching jutsu at opponents, and it would still be hard to dodge the dragons in this case considering Erza would have to also worry about Obito sneaking up behind her or throwing a bunch of jutsu/ninja tools at her

The lightning can be countered by Erza's lightning empress armour which will reduce the effects of said lightning by at least 50%.

I'm actually not too sure if this would work considering energies are equalised and lightning in the FT universe is also made out of Ethernano, which makes up most matter in the world of FT, so its a bit questionable if lightning with different properties than the FT verse's lightning would be countered by Erza's armour

What this shows is that it's durability is mountain level, so a barrage of attacks from Erza would easily destroy it. Choji, visually speaking, isn't that large either. Unless there's direct confirmation that I'm missing, his size seems to be relative of a small mountain.

Why would its durability be just mountain level if its brushing off mountain level attacks no problem? If anything it should be higher, and to answer your question about its size and Choji, pre timeskip Choji in the databooks was confirmed to be the size of a mountain, in addition, the Choji that fought the GM is also more than a hundred times stronger than his pre timeskip self which is crazy considering as a kid, he was able to bust a small mountain by body slamming it, Jirobo was able to toss around this Choji yet he still got beaten by a Butterfly Choji who is a hundred times stronger than the enlarged, mountain sized Choji (shown in the link)

No Caption Provided

Final Counters

This is just borderline wrong, Erza is very intelligent. I've shown her figuring out Midnight's ability within seconds which shocked both Midnight and Jellal.

I acknowledge that she is indeed intelligent, but does the series ever emphasize this trait of hers after this? Not to mention Kamui is a far more complex ability than Midnight's Reflector, considering it took three high level shinobi, including Kakashi, a character known for his great intelligence, to figure out how Kamui works. How would she differentiate Kamui from just basic intangibility to what it actually is, that being teleporting the user's body parts? Not to mention she would need to figure out the counters for the Rinnegan abilities. Him teleporting around the battlefield wouldn't help her either.

The whole IC character can be applied to you which renders all of the paths you've shown borderline useless since Obito doesn't use them off the bat either. The difference is that Erza has used it on more than one occasion, the first being against Minerva and the other against Ajeel.

I've already proven that Obito will use the Rinnegan abilities if they will provide an advantage for him, which they will, and Erza has only used the Nakagami armour twice throughout the entire series (possibly a third depending on how the fight with Misaki goes), both scenarios were a last resort usage. Considering Erza would most likely not figure out the abilites of Kamui during the fight, and considering she uses the armour very rarely IC, it's highly unlikely she would resort to using this armour as it does take quite a lot of MP.

Nakagami cuts through space itself and the direction is wherever she swings. If she's aiming for Obito, how is Obito going to deal with that?

I've shown above that the idea Nakagami can cut through space is a bit questionable, and its main property seems to be the ability to cut through magic attacks, which is meaningless here. Even if I agree to this, Obito's body parts are being teleported to another time space entirely, so I don't think she could cut through him if she tried.

I'm also against PoF being used as a legit argument since PoF is a common theme for many characters throughout the series. Plus, Erza has similar feats such as being able to cut Irene and cause so much damage,she forcefully knocks her out of her dragon form.

I mean, besides Natsu and Erza, does anyone else really fall under this trope at all? The feat of her knocking out Dragon Irene takes place seconds after she busts Deus Sema, and both I would consider to be very inconsistent considering Erza was clearly portrayed as being far below Human Irene previously and she had Wendy's DS enchantments amping her attacks. She went from being clearly below Irene's human form to one shotting Dragon Irene and her strongest attack while having her bones broken, showing that PoF is a huge amp.

Conclusion

My initial thoughts still haven't changed too much, so I'll sum up my thoughts briefly here:

  • I've proven that Obito is comparable to, if not superior to Erza in terms of speed
  • I've shown that Obito is more likely to use his Rinnegan abilities IC right off the bat than Erza using the Nakagami armour
  • Erza wouldn't be able to deduce how Kamui or the Rinnegan abilities work in time before Obito puts her down
  • Obito has several win conditions here, such as stealing her soul via the Naraka Path, putting her under a Genjutsu then impaling her with wood style or black rods
  • Nakagami armour, even if used, wouldn't work on Obito either way
  • Erza would most likely be taken down before she has the chance to use Nakagami
  • If Erza is caught in CT, she wouldn't be able to figure out its weaknesses in time
  • Obito isn't far inferior in terms of physical stats compared to Erza, so he's not getting oneshotting even if he gets hit
  • With the prowess of the Sharingan, and superior speed aiding his usage of Kamui he's not getting tagged by Erza

Thats' it for my second post, looking forward to wrapping this up in our final posts!