"Names Midnighter. And here's where I tear out your carotid artery"- New52 Stormwatch issue 11
Origin
Midnighter was once a boy from Kosovo who was abducted by owl shaped aliens when coming back from working in a neighbor's farm when he was a child. His life ended that night, what he is today grew from that wreckage of an existence. He was experimented upon for many years before he finally escaped. It was during his escape, in which the air dent he was in fell apart that he first met Apollo.
Alright. Lets start with some basic stuff from Midnighter in regards to how hard he's going to be beating the snot out of his victim....errr I mean opponent in this matchup. For starters, lets cite New52 Stormwatch Issue 5, where Midnighter tells Henry Tanner that he has Carbon Fiber muscles
This obviously makes his muscles a lot more dense then a normal humans, and allows him to strike with a greater force then normal people. That said, lets actually get into some of his more normal striking feats. For starters, lets start with New52 Stormwatch issue 14, where Midnighter punches hard enough to visibly draw blood from Etrigan
Lets cite another feat where Midnighter hits a powerhouse. Next we look at New52 Stormwatch issue 15 where Midnighter hits Apollo so hard that he visibly staggers him:
This should pretty well establish that whenever Midnighter strikes Obidiah (and he's gonna), it's gonna inflict some very serious damage to Obie.
Speed
Now, I know speed is equalized here, but for the sake of argument, I'm gonna post some speed feats to not only give voters a good idea on how fast Midnighter is, but to establish why speed had to be equalized in the first place. To start with, lets look at Midnighter issue 10 in where he times bullets from Deadshot casually.
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Not too shabby if I say so myself. Lets now look at Midnighter issue 8, where he gets behind someone while they have a gun right to his head:
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Now, because speed here is equalized, Midnighter won't be able to blitz Obidiah right off the gate, but he can still make it difficult for Obidiah to even tag him.
Skill
Through a combination of Midnighters battle computer and his pure raw skill, Midnighter has been able to take on some extremely skilled people and pretty much laugh his way through them. He's also able to take on hordes of enemies at once and come out without a scratch. Let's look at Midnighter issue 3 where he takes on lots of Multiplex clones at once, and where most people would be worried, Midnighter's darn excited:
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Now that we've established that Midnighter can take on lots of enemies. Lets look at how he does against some skilled opponents, as Obidiah possess knowledge of many, if not all martial arts, thanks to his abilities. In fact, I think Midnighters fight against Prometheus in Midnighter issues 6 & 7 is a good example of facing someone skilled in lots of martial arts:
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Due to the site scan rule, some scans of the fight had to be omitted. but the gist of it should be clear. Despite having the skills of multiple people like Batman,Lady Shiva, & even Midnighter himself, wounding Midnighter before the fight began, and negating his battle computer thanks to his own enhancements, Midnighter is still able to defeat Prometheus.
Another fight I'm going to bring up is his fight against the Orphans in Batman & Robin: Eternal issue 25, with a scan from issue 26 to tie it all together
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As we can see in the second scan, Orphans are skilled enough to give Jason Todd a challenge, yet Midnighter has no issue taking on 12 of them at once, and even though the fight happens off panel, his dialogue from issue 26 (last scan), indicates that he never had that much of a challenge against them.
I'm gonna leave the skill feats here for now. I think I've established that knowing multiple martial arts styles won't be enough to defeat Midnighter, considering he's faced comparatively skilled people and bested them.
Durability
This is a category where Midnighter doesn't have a whole lot of feats in, due to the fact that he rarely ever gets tagged without significant context attributed to it. One good feat for his durability is in Midnighter issue 2 where Midnighter not only tanks the six sounds of death twice, but goes on to punch out his own ears to counter them and tanks all this just fine:
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The six sounds of death are capable of one-shotting normal people, yet Midnighter is able to tank them twice, then punch out his own ears, and is still good to go for the fight.
Another feat of his is where he basically just shrugs off being stabbed through the hand in Midnighter issue 6
Again, he doesn't have a whole lot of non-context feats of getting tagged, because he almost never gets tagged legitimately. His durability is very good though, as we can clearly see from the scans provided.
I'm gonna leave things here, since this is just an opener. I know Obidiah has some more haxy like abilities in his arsenal, but my memory on that front is a little hazy, so I'll leave it to you to showcase that stuff for him, and I'll counter them where need be.
Archer's origin is somewhat complex so I'll just go over the basics. Archer as a child was abducted an experimented on. This activated his latent psiot (valiant's version of mutants) powers. He was then brainwashed and raised as an assassin by his evangelical parents until he split from them after learning they were part of a doomsday cult. Yeah its weird.
Skill
Archer is one of if not the most skilled character in comics. At the start of the series he was already incredibly skilled able to take down half a dozen of his foster siblings all of which are trained assassins.
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Just to give you an idea for how skilled his siblings are one of his sisters Mary Maria was able to break into a cartel compound and solo everyone inside with a sword. Here's the scan though most of the confrontation was off screen.
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Archer can also had the ability to copy any skill he had seen. This ability allowed him to copy the 5,000 years of experience of fighting from Eternal Warrior.
Even more so Archer has learned to tap into the Akashic records the collective of human experience.
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With this he can download any skill that he desires without need for having seen them.
Stats
Archer has enhanced stats due to the activation of his psiot powers.
This page showcases the fact that Archer has enhanced agility and speed but he has also shown strength and durability outside of what can be considered humanly possibly.
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Archer has been able to throw the Eternal Warrior 15ft casually and was able to even overpower and smash EW into stone hard enough to create a small crater. Eternal Warrior is a multi (3-5) tonner himself and while I don't think Archer is as strong as him the fact that he could hang with him at all shows he has somewhat enhanced strength. Possibly more importantly however is Archer's rather impressive durability.
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Archer was able to tank a small vehicle being thrown at him by Armstrong an at least 3-5 tonner with only a few broken ribs even when the car caught him by surprise, he has also tanked hits from superhumans such as Armstrong and Bloodshot. Bloodshot hits hard enough to one shot kill a regular human and can even casually mutilate superhumans with his strength.
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Armstrong is even stronger than Bloodshot and Archer tanked hits from both of these people. But more notably Archer can enhance both his striking strength and durability with his skill.
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Archer has demonstrated the ability to channel his chi into his strikes similarly to iron fist. His enhanced strikes are powerful enough to bring down buildings. Lastly Archer knows a unique skill called systema.
This allows Archer to tank superhuman blows around Bloodshot and Armstrong's level without any damage at all.
Counters
Striking strength
Alright. Lets start with some basic stuff from Midnighter in regards to how hard he's going to be beating the snot out of his victim....errr I mean opponent in this matchup. For starters, lets cite New52 Stormwatch Issue 5, where Midnighter tells Henry Tanner that he has Carbon Fiber muscles
This obviously makes his muscles a lot more dense then a normal humans, and allows him to strike with a greater force then normal people. That said, lets actually get into some of his more normal striking feats. For starters, lets start with New52 Stormwatch issue 14, where Midnighter punches hard enough to visibly draw blood from Etrigan
Lets cite another feat where Midnighter hits a powerhouse. Next we look at New52 Stormwatch issue 15 where Midnighter hits Apollo so hard that he visibly staggers him:
This should pretty well establish that whenever Midnighter strikes Obidiah (and he's gonna), it's gonna inflict some very serious damage to Obie.
This is cool and all but it isn't really calcable. It doesn't establish a level of strength for Midnighter characters stagger high tiers all the time it doesn't mean they are even close to their level. What definitive strength feats does midnighter have putting him above the people Archer has tanked hits from.
Speed
Now, I know speed is equalized here, but for the sake of argument, I'm gonna post some speed feats to not only give voters a good idea on how fast Midnighter is, but to establish why speed had to be equalized in the first place. To start with, lets look at Midnighter issue 10 in where he times bullets from Deadshot casually.
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Not too shabby if I say so myself. Lets now look at Midnighter issue 8, where he gets behind someone while they have a gun right to his head:
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Now, because speed here is equalized, Midnighter won't be able to blitz Obidiah right off the gate, but he can still make it difficult for Obidiah to even tag him.
Cool scans good thing I equalized speed. Archer is fast but not that fast.
Skill
Through a combination of Midnighters battle computer and his pure raw skill, Midnighter has been able to take on some extremely skilled people and pretty much laugh his way through them. He's also able to take on hordes of enemies at once and come out without a scratch. Let's look at Midnighter issue 3 where he takes on lots of Multiplex clones at once, and where most people would be worried, Midnighter's darn excited:
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Now that we've established that Midnighter can take on lots of enemies. Lets look at how he does against some skilled opponents, as Obidiah possess knowledge of many, if not all martial arts, thanks to his abilities. In fact, I think Midnighters fight against Prometheus in Midnighter issues 6 & 7 is a good example of facing someone skilled in lots of martial arts:
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Due to the site scan rule, some scans of the fight had to be omitted. but the gist of it should be clear. Despite having the skills of multiple people like Batman,Lady Shiva, & even Midnighter himself, wounding Midnighter before the fight began, and negating his battle computer thanks to his own enhancements, Midnighter is still able to defeat Prometheus.
Even with the skills of all those people he still isn't close to Archer in skill. Eternal Warrior alone out skills prometheus having mastered nearly 500 martial arts which should be around as much if not more then all those DC characters combined. Archer has his plus ever other humans skill.
Another fight I'm going to bring up is his fight against the Orphans in Batman & Robin: Eternal issue 25, with a scan from issue 26 to tie it all together
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As we can see in the second scan, Orphans are skilled enough to give Jason Todd a challenge, yet Midnighter has no issue taking on 12 of them at once, and even though the fight happens off panel, his dialogue from issue 26 (last scan), indicates that he never had that much of a challenge against them.
I'm gonna leave the skill feats here for now. I think I've established that knowing multiple martial arts styles won't be enough to defeat Midnighter, considering he's faced comparatively skilled people and bested them.
I would argue none of these people are nearly as skilled as even Eternal Warrior who has foughten and killed armies of demons (possibly every demon in hell). Archer easily schooled Eternal Warrior. Only Karate Kid really comes close to being as skilled as Archer.
Overview
Overall Archer actually has a few notable advantages here.
He is infinitely more skilled than Midnighter
He is incredibly versatile. Probably more versatile than any other person Midnighter has ever fought. I'll get into more details of his priot powers in the next round but overall their are millions of ways Archer can open this fight. If Midnighter's famous battle computer can only run the battle a million times before the fight starts this will be one of the few times he runs into an opponent who could still catch him off guard.
Archer will be able to last against midnighter's hits with his durability and systema and his Chi enhanced strikes should be able to easily defeat him if they land and they aren't his only form of offense.
Archer has a ranged weapon in his cross bow though that probably won't come into play much in this fight.
This is cool and all but it isn't really calcable. It doesn't establish a level of strength for Midnighter characters stagger high tiers all the time it doesn't mean they are even close to their level. What definitive strength feats does midnighter have putting him above the people Archer has tanked hits from.
You're not actually countering my strength feats here. If anything, it's coming across as you attempting to dismiss them as outliers, when they aren't. I've just shown you two of his feats, and I have others that can sustain this argument.
If anything, I should be asking you why Obidiah should be able to tank even a single strike from Midnighter. I've already posted the strength feats that put Midnighters striking strength above anything that you've posted for Bloodshot or anyone Obie's tanked a hit from. So, saying that "tanking a shot from Bloodshot= tanking a punch from Midnighter", isn't accurate as they're nowhere near the same strength level based on the feats provided. Heck, you want an example why staggering Apollo is good? Let's just cite New52 Futures End issue 14, where Apollo is explicitly stated to be a "Superman level" character"
"Including the Superman-level Apollo"
Now, while I personally don't take this statement to mean Apollo= New52 Superman in stats, this would most certainly put him in that ballpark, probably below Superman if I'm being realistic, but it's not like his durability is pathetic. You don't get to be called a Superman level character without some good stats to your name. Now that that's cleared up, lets post another striking feat for Midnighter. Lets cite his brief fight against the Mawzir in Midnighter & Apollo issue 2:
Now, lets actually show why staggering the Mawzir is a good feat. In Midnighter & Apollo issue 1, the Mawzir was shown taking on Apollo, and even tanking a blow from him. So staggering him twice is a darn impressive feat. Now, if you insist on pressing this issue further, I have more scans of Midnighter harming superhumanly durable beings. This is a consistent thing for him, it's gonna be tough for you to prove otherwise...
Even with the skills of all those people he still isn't close to Archer in skill. Eternal Warrior alone out skills prometheus having mastered nearly 500 martial arts which should be around as much if not more then all those DC characters combined. Archer has his plus ever other humans skill.
Here's the thing with skill: Knowing more martial arts only gets you so far in a fight, it's not an automatic "I win" condition, otherwise, people like Batman would beat Deathstroke every single time despite the reverse happening more times then not. My point in the skill section was not to portray Midnighter as more skilled, it was to convey that knowing lots of martial arts is not enough to defeat Midnighter, as he has taken on very skilled people, and bested them, even in unfavorable circumstances such as his fight with Prometheus. Just because EW knows more martial arts does not grant him the win over someone like Midnighter for example. The same applies for Obidiah.
I would argue none of these people are nearly as skilled as even Eternal Warrior who has foughten and killed armies of demons (possibly every demon in hell). Archer easily schooled Eternal Warrior. Only Karate Kid really comes close to being as skilled as Archer.
Your feats of Obie "schooling" EW that you posted... lets approach them for a second.
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Archer & Armstrong issue 5
Here's the full showing in the first scan you posted. He throws him into the container, locks it, then Armstrong BFR's him. Hardly what I would call "schooling" someone.
Now let;s move on to the other instance you posted of Obie defeating Eternal Warrior. While it's a good feat, there is some context to that fight that I feel is important to bring to light:
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Archer & Armstrong issue 8
While the fight itself happens in Archer & Armstrong issue 9, it's important to note that Archer was under the possession of someone at the time of the fight. This is important because this person used Archers powers more effectively then Archer normally used his powers, and is basically a morals off Obidiah as well, which is not how Obie normally is. Furthermore, Gilad had to tank a massive explosion before the fight even began, so he was significantly weakened before they fought. The context to that fight is clearly important imo
Honestly, when we look at the context surrounding the skill feats with Gilad, they really don't prove that Obie is superior to Midnighter in fighting skill imo, and those feats aren't anything that Midnighter couldn't replicate.
I would argue none of these people are nearly as skilled as even Eternal Warrior who has foughten and killed armies of demons (possibly every demon in hell). Archer easily schooled Eternal Warrior. Only Karate Kid really comes close to being as skilled as Archer.
Well, we aren't comparing Midnighter's skill against Eternal Warriors, we're comparing it to Obie's. I've already posted the context behind the Obie v EW matches you've cited. Hardly a "schooling" by any means if you ask me. This skill advantage is hardly as big as you want to make it, and like I said: knowing more martial arts is hardly an automatic "I win". If anything, Midnigters own comparable skill, along with his battle computer, should let him have an initial advantage. Obie's never faced someone like Midnighter before.
Some more minor rebuttals
Archer is one of if not the most skilled character in comics
Eh, he knows the most martial arts, at least more then anyone I've ever seen, this does not mean that it isn't possible to out skill him in application. Heck, you posted a scan of Bloodshot himself countering Obies attempt at utilizing Krav maga against him. So, "most skilled" is subjective imo
Archer can also had the ability to copy any skill he had seen. This ability allowed him to copy the 5,000 years of experience of fighting from Eternal Warrior.
If he attempts to copy Midnighter's fighting skill then I can't see that working out for him too well (I don't even think he does that anyway), considering Prometheus already tried that, and Midnighter still beat him under worse conditions then he's facing here
Armstrong is even stronger than Bloodshot and Archer tanked hits from both of these people.
Well, by feats, Armstrong has better lifting strength. Lifting strength and striking strength are not the same thing. Bloodshot just doesn't compare to Midnighter in the strength department. So you can't equate the two, the same goes for Armstrong so far
Archer has demonstrated the ability to channel his chi into his strikes similarly to iron fist. His enhanced strikes are powerful enough to bring down buildings.
The only time I can recall him using the Fujian white punch was in Archer & Armstrong vol 1 issue 25 that you cited. I'm pretty sure it's not a consistent thing for him to use
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Archer & Armstrong issue 25
The same could be said about Archers use of Dim Mak. The only time I can recall him using it was in Archer & Armstong issue 4 (which is what your scan is from), and even that use had context behind it:
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Archer & Armstrong issue 4
Even if I'm misremembering his use of it, I've never seen anything to suggest that it's in character for him to use it on a person. I'm gonna have to see some supporting evidence in order to buy this argument
Lastly Archer knows a unique skill called systema.This allows Archer to tank superhuman blows around Bloodshot and Armstrong's level without any damage at all.
What feats does this guy have putting him on Armstrongs level, exactly? Heck, what striking strength feats does Armstrong have to put him in Midnighter's strength class? You can't really compare a featless person (more or less anyway) to someone like Armstrong or even Bloodshot unless they have comparable feats. And you can't compare the striking strength of Armstrong or Bloodshot to someone like Midnighter unless they have comparable feats, which so far, they really don't. So, I don't see systema letting him tank a single shot from Midnighter since, in my view, it hasn't let him tank a blow from someone in Midnighters striking strength range
Overview rebuttal
He is infinitely more skilled than Midnighter
Correction- He knows more martial arts then Midnighter. This does not mean that he can't be outskilled. Your own scan with Bloodshot supports this assertion. Midnighters own raw skill coupled with his battle computer should let him compete on even footing, if not take the edge in what seems to be a short scuffle at this point
He is incredibly versatile. Probably more versatile than any other person Midnighter has ever fought. I'll get into more details of his priot powers in the next round but overall their are millions of ways Archer can open this fight. If Midnighter's famous battle computer can only run the battle a million times before the fight starts this will be one of the few times he runs into an opponent who could still catch him off guard.
Well, like I said, I'll wait for you to showcase this versatility before I address it. Everything you've shown isn't really gonna do the job for reasons I've already stated. I'm gonna need to see a more consistent use of his chi punch in order to consider it coming into play, because I can only remember him using it once. But I know you have more to showcase for Archer.
Archer will be able to last against midnighter's hits with his durability and systema and his Chi enhanced strikes should be able to easily defeat him if they land and they aren't his only form of offense.
Not based on anything you've posted so far. Heck, someone like Bloodshot was able to bloody him, and from what you've posted, Midnighters striking strength is leaps and bounds better then Bloodshots. Archer doesn't have the durability to tank even a handful of strikes from Midnighter and every strike is gonna leave Obie screaming in pain, and Middy won't stop at 1
Archer has a ranged weapon in his cross bow though that probably won't come into play much in this fight.
We're talking about a guy who can laugh at marksmen like Deadshot when they try to tag him, even if speed is equalized, this might as well not even be here. This really isn't an advantage mate....
Conclusion (so far)
Midnighter's striking strength is consistent enough to harm some pretty durable people, even ones like the Superman-level Apollo
There have yet to be feats posted as to why Obidiah could tank even a single shot from Midnighter, much less repeated ones
The skill gap between the two is much less then you think by actual feats once the full picture of those showings is brought to light & Midnighters battle computer should even the odds if not give him the edge
Obidiah's chi enhancing strikes has yet to be established as something he uses consistently when he fights.
I know there's more to Obie that you've yet to post. And I still have a few cards left to play for Midnighter. Looking forward to your next post @americanspeeddemon
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