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#1 Edited by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio

Challenge - A - Viner

Greetings my fellow Viners and welcome to a debate between my friend TheMultiversity and me. He will be representing Marvel's Version of the Green Lantern (sorta), space traveling Xandarian Centurion and a former member of the Annihilators who recently came back to the Marvel Landscape. I will be representing the original fastest man alive, founding member of the Justice Society of America and the mentor to Barry Allen. Meet...

Richard Rider Nova Prime - Represented by TheMultiversity

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VS...

Jay Garrick the Flash - Represented by KrleAvenger

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The Rules

  • Combatants will fight at best of their abilities but they are still In Character to a degree.
  • It means no instant portal opening and phasing attacking vital organs.
  • Combatants do not have to worry about collateral damage.
  • Standard knowledge about each other (Rich has Worldmind).
  • Battle Field Removal (BFR) allowed but only as the final option.
  • If an opponent's character is BFRed, he is allowed to come back if he is able to.
  • If BFRed character can't come back to the battle field in 5 seconds, he loses.
  • No Prep Time.
  • No amps (besides Annihilation and Speed Force Upgrades).
  • 616/Prime Marvel Universe Nova Prime.
  • Pre-Flashpoint/New Earth Jay Garrick.
  • Win by Death/Incap/KO/BFR.

Location

Metropolis
Metropolis

Voting

This is a Challenge a Viner, a special type of battle forum where two debaters can have a nice argument between the two of them so we would appreciate if you would not interfere with that. Please don't make us call the mods.

Please don't say who you think would win until the debate is completely over. Again another reason why the debaters call the mods.

Ask to be tagged and you'll be reserved for voting at the end when you the debate is done. Even those who are not tagged and didn't ask to be tagged are still allowed to vote.

Keep your negative comments to yourself or at-least bring them forth when the debate is over. If some of us made a mistake bring it up but NOT BEFORE THE DEBATE IS OVER. Also please do not flood the thread with unneeded comments like talking about your own stuff or posting funny stuff unless you asked to be tagged in those comments.

Thanks for understanding and I hope you will enjoy.

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#3 Posted by foxerdes (9773 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#4 Posted by nfactor1995 (12746 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#5 Posted by Debelindzo (832 posts) - - Show Bio

BOIIII this gon be gud. T4V

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#6 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4503 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Edited by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18008 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#9 Posted by APEX_pretador (18884 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh well, a speedster match including rider, t4v

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#10 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (15631 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by blackpantherisb (6620 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Edited by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by theawesomeflashsandiego32 (2150 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger:Could you tag me for all of your future CaV's?

Also T4V

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#24 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Edited by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio

Introduction

No Caption Provided

Biography:

Nova, Richard Rider, probably the most well-known and famous Nova Corpsmen, and also a member of the Annihilators He's a protector of the universe, and also a protector of earth, using the Nova Force he helps take down some of the most powerful villains Marvel knows.

After annihilation, it was discovered that all the other Nova Corpsmen were dead. Leaving Richard Rider as the sole Nova Force user in the universe, so he was than imbued with all the Nova Force energies from every other corpsmen making him much more powerful.

Richard gains the Full Nova Force.

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Richard Rider has a wide variety of powers which consist of

Powers/Abilities/Stats

  • Enhanced physicals (Well beyond 100 tons)
  • Insane speed (faster than light)
  • Flight
  • Enhanced durability (Can take hits from class 100's)
  • Can open portals
  • Can open Stargates
  • Energy manipulation
  • Energy absorption
  • Tracking abilities
  • ,Manipulation of gravity
  • Produce force-fields

These powers and abilities have been greatly increased after gaining full power to the Nova Force. Well although Richard has all of the Nova Force, he can't necessarily tap into all of it as it would be too much power and would drive him crazy. This has been stated by another thing Richard Rider will have in this battle. World Mind!

World Mind

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World Mind is all the knowledge, energy and power from the planet Xander, and Nova Corps. World Mind is what gave Richard the full Nova Force not to mention the same thing that keeps it's power in check. Being that Richard has all the Nova Force, World Mine speaks to him a lot, and often gives him strategic approaches and information in battle.

@krleavenger I understand this is a very small opener, but I just wanted us to get the mere details upon our characters out of the way. Wanted this to at-least have something so the daily debater could put it up. My next post will make up for what this is lacking. I'll even go straight into the debate from there.

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#26 Edited by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason Peter "Jay" Garrick - The Flash

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@themultiversity: Nice opener man and to be honest, I don't have a problem with it being short. I myself prefer this kind of debate. Just introduce the character you are debating with and wait for the next round to start the debate. It will be awesome debating using a Speedster without worrying about hostility between the debaters and the voters like when someone puts Superman, or Thor, or even Silver Surfer against a Speedster. And Rich is the perfect candidate. My post will be focused on introducing Jay Garrick without focusing on a debate or jumping to any conclusions.

Origin

The original Jay Garrick that existed before Barry Allen's attempt to save his mother (Flashpoint) is the original fastest man alive and he is the founding member of the JSA. He retired but eventually came back and reformed the JSA and he never left the team. He was also a close friend to all members of the Flash Family (Barry, Iris, Wally, Linda, Bart, Jesse...). Jay overall has a unique bond with younger super heroes. They see him as a father figure (especially Barry and Wally) and he felt the same. He was always there to support new generation of heroes. His origin and history is explained in a more detailed way under the spoiler block.

Becoming the Flash

Jay Garrick was a Midwestern University Student in Keystone City where he would double-major in chemistry and physics. He had a girlfriend named Joan. During his junior year Jay was working on experiment with purify hard water without any residual radiation in a cyclotron. A test tube of the hard water was accidentally spilled and the fumes knocked Jay out but he was saved by his friend Elliot Shapiro. Jay was unconsciousness for a week and doctors did not know will he survive, until one day he woke up extremely healthy. Running the same tests over and over again, the doctors find out that the accident increased Jay's metabolism, giving him the ability to run, move, react and think at superhuman speeds Flash Comics #1 (his first appearance).

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Discovering his new powers, Jay decided to use them to help people and do some good, so he created a costume for himself and took the name The Flash, the original fastest man alive. Jay's helmet was inspired by his father's Brodie Helmet.

World War II

Jay was fighting alongside his best friend Alan Scott, the original Green Lantern. Both of them were fighting for the government at the time people could actually trust the government. Eventually Alan and Jay were send to fight in World War II and other heroes who also joined the fight like Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson), Hourman (Rex), Hawkman, The Spectre (Jim) and Atom (Pratt) eventually formed the Justice Society of America, the World's first super hero team. When the World War two was finished, the members of the Justice Society had to reveal their secret identities and most of them did so but they gave up their super hero carriers and retired.

Flash of Two Worlds

When Barry Allen vibrated so fast he traveled through realities, visiting Earth 2, Barry met Jay Garrick who on his Universe (Earth 1) is a comic book character and it was he who inspired Barry to become a Super Hero and use the Flash name after he gained Super Speed. Barry needed help to stop Jay's old enemies, Fiddler, Shade and Thinker which is why he came to him Flash Vol. 1 #123.

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Jay decided to become the Flash once again and the two Speedsters shared a lot of adventures together, travelling in and out of their Earths to help each other.

Crisis on Infinite Earths

After the fight between the Spectre and the Anti Monitor, the Universe collapsed. When Krona saw the hand of God the Multiverse was created but because of the Anti Monitor's time travel, he saw Spectre and the Anti Monitor fighting instead which collapsed the Multiverse. It caused the destruction of Earth 1 (main DC Universe), Earth 2 (Golden Age Universe now decades after WWII), Earth 3 (World of Evil Heroes like Crime Syndicate) and all other Earths are destroyed. The only thing that remains is New Earth, a Universe with Earth 1 with changed histories Crisis on Infinite Earths #11.

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It turns out that the only people that actually remember everything that happened (events before the collapse and collapse itself) are people who were there at the end of time when The Anti Monitor fought the Spectre. That is why Jay remembers Earth 2 Superman but his wife Joan doesn't, because technically she never met him but he and Jay remember because reboot did not erase their memories.

While people like Superman, Wonder Woman and a lot of other characters were rebooted entirely, characters like Batman, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Wally West, Jay Garrick and all other members of the JSA were not rebooted. While everyone (including Superman and WW who were rebooted) remember the events of COIE, Jay's history and events that happened Pre Crisis all remain canon (including characters they know like Joan, Iris, Wally's parents, Alan's wife and kids...) The only thing the COIE changed for Jay and members of the JSA is that they were never heroes of Earth 2 as the Earth 2 never existed. Instead they were just retired heroes from 40s.

So Barry Allen being inspired by a comic book character who is a real person in Earth 2 was changed to Jay being real person and a hero of WWII who retired because of request of revealing secret identities and was never seen again (although both Barry and Jay remember Jay being a comic book character of now non existing Earth 1).

Reformation of the JSA

Now a resident of New Earth and Barry Allen now dead, Jay retired once again but Alan and Jay decided to return to their super hero carriers once again during Justice Society of America Vol. 2 #1 and reassembled the team during issue 2.

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While he was operating as a member of the JSA, Jay was also supporting Wally West who at the time was the new Flash because his mentor Barry Allen died during COIE. Jay was there to help Wally when needed, like he did during the fight with Eobard Thawne (Professor Zoom and/or Reverse Flash) when Jay asked Johnny Quick (another speedster from 40s) and Max Mercury (the first speedster ever) to help him stop Eobard Flash Vol. 2 #76.

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Since then, Jay was active member of the JSA while operating as the Flash in Keystone City with Wally and other speedsters. The JSA however did not stay the same. Even when it was reformed, a lot of members did not come back either because they died, they weren't able to join or they just didn't want to. As JSA Volume 1 came out, a lot of old members retired for good or simply died of old age and were replaced with new members using the same name, either because they were in some way related to past members or because they were looking up to them and did not want their legacy to die.

Powers and Abilities

I will mention all Jay's abilities for the sake of info even tho some of them are pretty much useless. I will not focus on his ridiculous showing Pre-Crisis when he was running through Infinity, travelling between dimensions and other absurd stuff.

  • Speed Force Connection: The accident that gave Jay his super speed also gave him connection to the Speed Force, an extra dimensional energy source that serves as a power source and the afterlife for all the speedsters in the DC Universe. Jay's connection to the Speed Force is not as great as Wally's or Bart's (as the Flash) and he does not have the ability to manipulate it like Max Mercury and Savitar. However, Jay is still superior to average speedsters like Jesse Quick and has almost all abilities other Speedsters have (besides manipulators like Savitar and generators like Barry) which are the following:
  • Superhuman Speed/Reflexes: The main power granted to everyone who has the connection to the Speed Force. Jay can run, move, react, think and process information faster than any human. Jay can also process information at superhuman speed. According to Jay, he is as fast as Superman and he can approach the Speed of Light. While he is not as nearly as fast, Jay consistently proved to be fast enough to keep up with fastest Speedsters in the DC Universe, like Barry Allen, Wally West and Eobard Thawne. Jay's speed is comparable to that of Bart Allen and Max Mercury.
  • Speed Force Aura: The Speed Force manifests an aura around Jay, protecting him from getting hurt or killed because of effects of their speed, such a friction with the air, heat, sonic booms... The Speed Force Aura also gives Jay increased durability. He can tank blows from DC's Powerhouses without much damage and does not hurt his hand after punching them.
  • Accelerated Healing: Jay, like all speedsters has the ability to heal extremely fast. While he does not have advanced healing like Savitar and Max and his healing is not as fast and effective as Barry's, he can still tank blows from powerhouses and heal in seconds.
  • Decelerated Aging : Jay's connection to the Speed Force decreased the effectiveness of time and age on his body slightly as well as those close to him like his wife Joan. This is why both Jay and Joan appear to be in their 60s even tho they are in their 90s.
  • Phasing: Jay, like all Speedsters can vibrate his molecules at super speed, making them intangible by tapping into the Speed Force. Although he is using this tactic only to vibrate through attacks and objects while running and does not use them to kill or take down his targets by vibrating through them like Barry, Wally and Thawne.
  • Superhuman Stamina: While Jay does not have unlimited stamina and still needs food and water to survive, his enhanced stamina prevents him from getting tired as soon as normal humans.
  • Increased Striking Power: Jay never actually showed the ability to preform Infinite Mass Punch like Wally but Jay's punches are powerful enough to hurt powerhouses.
  • Vortex Creation: Jay can create vortex by either running in circles or rotating his arm at Super Speed. They can be used for a variety of effects. One effect is pulling the air away from the center in order to suffocate an enemy. Another effect is levitating whoever and whatever was in the center. Some other effects are acting as barriers to movement or funnels for toxic gas's.
  • Speed Steal: The ability he learned from Wally West. Jay has the ability to steal speed from other moving objects or people. When he does this he slows down that person or object while boosting his speed with the kinetic energy absorbed from that object/person. He can even make those objects or people motionless like statues, completely absorbing their speed.
  • Speed Force Empathy: Jay's connection to the Speed Force allows him to sense and locate other Speedsters when they are troubled, just like he did with Barry Allen when he was thinking about his mother in his old house.

Misconception about Speedsters

Considering the fact that there is nothing more to do but start a debate, I would like to point out few misconceptions about speedsters and their speed before we start with an actual debate. Mostly it is based on their low showing. I know you are respectful debater and you are not really gonna focus on instances when speedsters were not able to use their speed at their peak or got blitzed or tagged by people slower than they are, but I need to make an argument voters will agree with and for the sake of that argument I'm just gonna provide some context about speedsters not using their speed. It is a bit longer than I would prefer, especially for the opener but I would prefer to go over that "low/high showing/will he use/will he not use/can he/he won't/can't" argument, mostly because of the voters.

While there is a lot of context about speedsters not using their speed, for Barry and Wally especially, there is one thing people don't know about the speedsters and it is a common thing for pretty much all of them (besides evil ones like Eobard Thawne and Hunter Zolomon). First off, during the comics that came out after Crisis on Infinite Earths, not a single speedster ever approached light speed. Actually not even close. It was consistently stated to be impossible, dangerous and ridiculous. That is, until Mark Waid took over the title and introduced Max Mercury in the story Return of Barry Allen who is the first known human who had the power of super speed and he is the first person who found out about the Speed Force and tapped into it. Actually, the concept of the Speed Force never existed until later on when Max Mercury mentioned it to Wally while he was training him Flash Vol. 2 #91

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This comic came out in June 1, 1994,which is 7 years after Wally West became the Flash. Everything before that is Pre-Crisis does not matter. It was full of inconsistency and ridiculous feats. Barry had multiple feats that out him on Multiversal+ level Pre-Crisis.

The point that I'm trying to make with this scan is that the Speed Force was introduced long after Wally became the Flash. Even the first two Post Crisis Series of JSA came out where Jay and Alan were the main characters came out before this comic and certainly before issues 99 and 100 (final two issues of the story Terminal Velocity) when Wally tapped into the Speed Force and came out of it, becoming ridiculously broken character (power wise) we know today.

The reason why this is relevant for Jay and not just Wally who had a permanent power upgrade after he got out of the Speed Force, is because after the Speed Force was introduced, Mark Waid and later Geoff Johns and other writers started to write the speedsters as people who can go light speed and above. While Wally is the only character who gained a power upgrade, other speedsters were never introduced as light speedsters and above until the end of Terminal Velocity story. Hell, during the time when Barry was the Flash and Wally was his sidekick Kid Flash, they were talking about how the lightning and chemicals can give them Super Speed and Barry actually asked himself are they even human and is there probably some kind of a force that is giving them power Speed Force #1 - Chapter "Burning Secrets".

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Hell, the narrator himself said that the thing that Barry is talking about is the Speed Force but it is something Wally will never found out about until later years in his life, like when he met Max who mentioned the Speed Force with Wally himself claiming Barry never mentioned it himself (because Barry's statement above was just a theory and there was nothing to confirm it because he never tapped into the Speed Force until he died during the COIE which wasn't revealed until the Final Crisis story from 2008 as the Speed Force was never introduced as the concept until 1994 so there is no argument).

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Now when it comes to whole "in character" thing, speedsters usually get tagged or fail to blitz people slower than them is because they don't always go top speed. Let's focus on Max Mercury and his showing from Impulse #16. First off, let me explain the context. Max is around the same level of Speed as Jay. The reason why he decided to train Bart and go to school in Manchester Alabama was revealed in this issue but I'll get to that in a second and bare with me. Max is a speedster born in 19th century. He consistently travels forward through time when he taps into the speed force.

While training Bart, he met a young woman called Helen who was flirting with Max (for some reason). Than at the end of issue 15 of the Impulse series, it turned out that Helen is Max's daughter. So not only they talked more than once, not only she was flirting with him and not only they even had a dinner at some point, but he never told her he is his father. Even worse, Helen's mother was a wife of a doctor who saved Max's life and Max was sleeping with her and h was so pissed when he did that that he tapped into the speed force. This was an extremely bad moment for Max and he ran away and was about to tap into the Speed Force again. However, not only it took him minutes to approach near light speed but for some time he was only traveling mach 3 (3x the speed of sound), which says a lot considering the fact that Max reacted at FTL speed while being almost beaten to Death. Anyway, Impulse #16.

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There is another instance I'm a fan of, when Kyle Rayner and Wally West (same Wally West who was fighting in span of picoseconds and traveling 10-13 trillions of times the speed of light) were fighting Sonar, a guy who could shot sonic blasts so powerful, they were actually felt from Keystone City all the way to the New York and were still powerful enough to push a human being off the building while sitting on the edge of the rooftop. Plus Sonar was powerful enough to overpower both Kyle and Wally at the same time. Yet it turned out that Wally was traveling below the speed of sound throughout the entire fight because he did not break the speed of sound until the end which is the strategy he used to defeat Sonar. Based on Kyle's and Wally;s dialogue you can see that they are talking about breaking the sound barrier as something special as he did not do something like that until the end of the fight, which is funny because Wally preformed around 5 near light speed/light speed/above light speed feats before this comic came out.

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By the way, the issue is Green Lantern Vol. 3 #67.

Overall, lack of speedster's consistent use of their maximum speed is because of them written with CIS, going below the speed of sound to super sonic speed on the daily basis. They use their maximum speed or at least go to higher levels of their maximum when they have to. As I said, it is something common to all speedsters. I even have scans of Black Adam tagging Jay Garrick even tho Adam is lacking feats to compete with Jay at his maximum. Based on Comic Vine battle forum rules on characters fighting at best of their abilities, without holding back, jobbing or focusing on PIS/WIS and especially CIS plus Jay having at least standard knowledge on Rider meaning knowing he is a powerhouse makes all those showings invalid.

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Alright, that was a little longer than I expected. But I hope I can kill that argument against the Speedsters before it even started, at least when the voters try to use the use of better feats for Jay against me using that argument. Either way, I'm looking forward to this debate and I'm interested to see how much I know about Nova and what arguments you will use to prove he will beat Jay.

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#28 Edited by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by blackpantherisb (6620 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#30 Posted by Ouroborik (3139 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#31 Posted by deactivated-5aeee927346fb (1531 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please.

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#32 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by British_Loki (844 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#34 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2: The Debate

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Additional Information:

Here is a bio on Nova Prime for some additional information on him and his powers.

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Capability:

I'll start this debate off by going over the advantages Nova Prime holds over Jay Garrick which should highlight why he's capable of edging him out in a battle. For starters, let's talk about the obvious physical advantage he has over Jay, who I might say isn't the strongest of character's being a Flash. Richard is capable of pulling 5 large ships in the ocean with nothing but ropes tied to his back. Nova Vol.4 #13

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Given Jay obviously doesn't have any strength feats comparable to that, I think it's fair to say that Prime has the obvious strength advantage in this debate and should he get a hold of Jay, there wouldn't be much he could do on the physical side to break his grip.

Now I'm aware physical strength isn't everything, so I'll highlight some of Richard's striking feats to show that he could quite literally lay Jay out in a couple of blows if he gets the chance. For starters, Richard is strong enough in his classic days to strike Thor hard enough to make him need to collect his senses from a single blow from Rider. This is an impressive feat given Richard was much weaker in his rookie days and would go much more powerful after attaining the full Nova Force. Not only that, but he was also shown phasing/harming/sending back Thor multiple times in that fight. Also shows he can take a blow from an enraged Thor who isn't in his right mind. Nova Vol. 1 #4

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I'm aware Wally West and Barry Allen have some incredible striking power, however, Jay was always the one I never really seen hold up to them in this regard, so I'm interested to see how hard he can strike.

With the Nova Force he was shown strong enough to go blow for blow with a woman called Strontian, who is from the race Gladiator is from. This also doubles as a showing of his durability as he's also taking blows from someone of her strength. Nova Vol.4 #27

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This is the same woman who was previously beating up on Ravenous, you know, the same character who has fought and harmed characters like Ronan and Silver Surfer. Nova Vol.4 #26

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I showed a little of Nova's durability but here's an additional feat to show that he can large collisions. In Nova Vol.4 #14, the Silver Surfer bull-rushed him and Nova from space into a planet and both of them didn't see harmed at all.

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I think it's needed from me to show why Richard could kep up with Jay because it's what makes him able to challenge him in this fight. Richard being a speedster in the Marvel universe makes this an interesting battle to see how they compare. That being said, Richard has shown some pretty impressive showings of speed which should be more than enough to suggest he can keep up with Jay.

While fighting Sphinx, Nova is overwhelmed by the powerful KA stones Sphinx possesses. So what does he do? He grabs the stones at extremely fast speeds out of Sphinx's helmet, flies to the sun, tosses it in there, and returns to the battlefield in no time at all. He moves so fast that by time he starts his sentence on earth, he finishes it when he reaches the sun. This indicates he probably reached the sun before he could finish a sentence. Nova Vol.3 #6

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This also works for reaction speed because like Flashes, Nova Prime is able to move around objects in his path at the same speeds he's moving at. He doesn't slow down or buffer. Though, if Nova is being overwhelmed, he could most certainly accelerate his combat speed to make it so he can compare to Jay. Nova Vol 4. Annual #1

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How Jay will be defeated:

The most difficult thing about fighting any Flash is their incredible speed, which is always on a very high level. Luckily, Richard isn't too shabby in that department himself, so he shouldn't have as much difficulty as most would trying to tag Jay. Not to say it will be easy for him, but it shouldn't be nearly as hard. As I've shown above, Richard should actually have comparable to Jay.

To go into detail how Nova can deal with Jay here, he can utilize his versality in order to keep him from using his fast movements effectively. For one, Nova can use his gravity force to manipulate gravity and keep Jay gravity which is what he did to Strontian. Seeing how Strontian is much stronger than Jay, I don't see how he would be capable of breaking free from this without vibrating through the ground. Given he would be in some pain, it may take some time for him to actually vibrate through the ground in-which Prime can follow it up with an attack of his own. Nova Vol.4 #26-27

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Another method that can be used is Nova releasing omni-directional blasts which span his entire bodily area. This would be effective given Flashes love to blitz their opponents from all directions, which wouldn't work out well for Jay. In order to not only get him off but also stun Jay for a follow up attack, he could do this. Nova Vol.4 #21

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He can create gravimetric force-fields which should be capable of keeping Jay from beating on him physically. Nova Vol.4 #20

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Conclusion:

  • Nova Prime has comparable speed to Jay via his flight which should give an advantage someone grounded wouldn't have. He could even accelerate his speed.
  • Nova Prime is much stronger and strikes much harder than Jack can.
  • Nova Prime can shrug off every blow Jay sends his way and can come back for more.
  • Gravity force with an energy blast should work wonders in putting Jay down.
  • Could release omni-directional blasts to stop Jay's speed-blitz and stun him.
  • His gravimetric force-fields should be more than capable of keeping Jay out.

You're up @krleavenger

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#37 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio

@themultiversity: Great post. I think this is gonna be an awesome debate. Oh yeah, sorry if I made some typing errors. I always do that when I post large comments.

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#38 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio

@themultiversity: Great post. I think this is gonna be an awesome debate. Oh yeah, sorry if I made some typing errors. I always do that when I post large comments.

Sorry for the wait, but I agree, this will be tons of fun. Also, no worries and good luck.

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#39 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Edited by blackpantherisb (6620 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#41 Edited by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio

Rebuttal/Argument - Round #1

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"A lot of heroes heroes today wonder why I look after them. Why I treat them like children Joan and I never had. For me, getting used to being a father... I really did love it." - JSA #25 - Seven Devils

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I'll start this debate off by going over the advantages Nova Prime holds over Jay Garrick which should highlight why he's capable of edging him out in a battle. For starters, let's talk about the obvious physical advantage he has over Jay, who I might say isn't the strongest of character's being a Flash. Richard is capable of pulling 5 large ships in the ocean with nothing but ropes tied to his back. Nova Vol.4 #13

Given Jay obviously doesn't have any strength feats comparable to that, I think it's fair to say that Prime has the obvious strength advantage in this debate and should he get a hold of Jay, there wouldn't be much he could do on the physical side to break his grip.

Speedsters actually have superhuman strength but mostly it goes beyond peak human. There are speedsters with ridiculous strength but it involves around speed force manipulation which Jay does not have and never shown similar levels of strength. He may be a 5 toner or something but I'm not even gonna bother searching for feats. In a strength contest this is a godstomp in Rich's favor. However, Speedsters don't rely on strength. They rely on their speed and versatility more than anything as well as their impressive striking power (I'll get more into that later). While I do agree that Rich can tag Jay, he has no hope of holding him in place or grabbing him in a perfect angle, even less holding him long enough before he escapes. Jay is just too fast in every sense of the word, including traveling speed/running, reaction/reflexes, combat speed and perception. Even if Rider somehow gets lucky enough to actually grab Jay, Jay might as well vibrate through him. Jay showed the ability to vibrate through walls in Secret Files and Origins: The Flash #1and he used those tactics to get himself out of the bad situations which he will use if he has to.

Now I'm aware physical strength isn't everything, so I'll highlight some of Richard's striking feats to show that he could quite literally lay Jay out in a couple of blows if he gets the chance. For starters, Richard is strong enough in his classic days to strike Thor hard enough to make him need to collect his senses from a single blow from Rider. This is an impressive feat given Richard was much weaker in his rookie days and would go much more powerful after attaining the full Nova Force. Not only that, but he was also shown phasing/harming/sending back Thor multiple times in that fight. Also shows he can take a blow from an enraged Thor who isn't in his right mind. Nova Vol. 1 #4

That scan is extremely cool. At least on paper. But when I read the issue and looked into further context, I was extremely disappointed because I like Rich and I think he is pretty underrated but that feat is not as nearly as impressive as it seems. As you said, Thor wasn't in his right mind and he was brainwashed by a guy called Corruptor right? Because I have the scan from the same issue where it shows Thor being brainwashed or to be more accurate, corrupted Nova #4 - Nova against the Mighty Thor.

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Which should actually make Rich's showing against Thor more impressive and it does durability wise, but when it comes to striking power, there is one part that really bugs me and that is the scan where the Corruptor returns to his human form during the fight and at the moment it happened, Thor was in some kind of pain already.

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Than the next scan shows Rider punching Thor in the face and when he asked him is he alright, he was after few seconds but he wasn't brainwashed (IIRC, Corruptor is not using telepathy but some kind of psychoactive chemical to the person he wants to control). In truth, I don't think Thor "needed a minute to collect his senses" because Rider just hit him that hard. I think Thor needed time to recover or at least come to his senses after his mind was freed from Corruptor's corruption/control and add to the fact that he was already in pain just before Rich punched him because of effects of Corruptor's powers wearing off.

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Based on further context, I don't think Pre-Annihilation Nova is strong enough to affect Thor with a punch to the point of a moment being required for Thor to come to his senses. He was just about to break free from mind control which already makes it difficult to think like you just woke up from the bad dream or being drugged or even drunk and the effects wearing off and add to the fact that Thor was already in a huge pain just before Rich punched him. I don't see any reason why this feat is so impressive but considering the fact that you know where these scans came from, I'm guessing you read the issue and you should know the context. So maybe I'm wrong about something here but it seems pretty clear to me that this feat is not that impressive but I'm not coming to any conclusions yet. I'm just gonna ask you, is there any reason why my view of this feat is wrong?

I'm aware Wally West and Barry Allen have some incredible striking power, however, Jay was always the one I never really seen hold up to them in this regard, so I'm interested to see how hard he can strike.

Yes, Jay's striking power is not coming close to Barry's or Wally's. I would even say Bart strikes harder than Jay. But Jay is not lacking any striking power. I'll get more into that in a minute.

With the Nova Force he was shown strong enough to go blow for blow with a woman called Strontian, who is from the race Gladiator is from. This also doubles as a showing of his durability as he's also taking blows from someone of her strength. Nova Vol.4 #27

This is the same woman who was previously beating up on Ravenous, you know, the same character who has fought and harmed characters like Ronan and Silver Surfer. Nova Vol.4 #26

I don't consider Ravenous's showing with Silver Surfer extremely consistent to be honest. Although I know Strontian is pretty strong, isn't she weaker than Gladiator? Or I missed something? Because I don't think Gladiator is that strong. I would put him somewhere in between Iron-man and the Hulk (and not on his level). I see that she has High Tier striking power and that Rich was able to overpower her to a degree but I don't think that showing is enough to prove Nova can damage Jay by a significant margin. Especially because moving a bit to the side and vibrating to decrease the damage of a blow is a tactic speedsters like to use and most of Jay's durability feats were shown without him trying or being able to do so. For instance, lets look at Flash Vol. 2 #77 where Jay was slammed into the ground and beaten up by bloodlusted Eobard Thawne (or if you prefer Professor Zoom or Reverse Flash) while taking almost zero damage.

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To provide some context, this is from the story called Return of Barry Allen where Eobard Thawne made everyone (including himself) believe that he is Barry Allen, the Flash who died during Crisis on Infinite Earths. That is why Thawne wears Barry's costume instead of his Reverse Flash costume (it is actually way more complicated than that but this is a simple way to explain it). Just to explain how impressive the feat is, Thawne can strike hard enough to hurt Superman and Hal Jordan without much trouble and here he was extremely pissed and and he slammed Jay into the ground and Jay just had a bloody nose which stopped bleeding after a second.

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Jay has more feats than this one but I'll save those for later.

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I showed a little of Nova's durability but here's an additional feat to show that he can large collisions. In Nova Vol.4 #14, the Silver Surfer bull-rushed him and Nova from space into a planet and both of them didn't see harmed at all.

Extremely impressive feat. It will be difficult for Jay to hurt Rich. However, I am sure Jay is capable of hurting Nova and eventually knock him out. We all know that if you run or you are given some kind of momentum, your striking power increases and especially when we talk about speedsters.

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Before I show any feats, let's look at Black Adam. The powerhouse so strong and durable, he could actually tank blows from various heroes without sustaining any injury, even at the same time, like Captain Marvel, various members or Marvel Family, Atom Smasher, Powergirl... He had pretty good durability showing at the end of 52 series. But let's look at his showing with Superman who himself stated Adam is one of the characters Clark does not really hold back against and both were evenly matched Action Comics #831

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Pretty impressive right? He wasn't really phased too much by Superman's blows. Even tho when Superman was about to hit him with a blow that appeared to be his strongest, he stopped it because he saw Adam not trying to dodge it and Clark claiming that punch could destroy the Moon which we both know is Superman's limit of damage output. Based on that context, Clark wasn't hitting Adam with his most powerful punches but he himself said Adam is someone he does not really hold back against. This means he was punching him extremely hard even if those blows weren't Moon busting punches. Because not holding back is not the same thing as going all out. It is still extremely impressive showing of durability against blunt force attacks.

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When Black Adam became mentally unstable because he had a tumor in his brain and attacked the JSA, Jay was able to make him bleed with his punches which is something Superman wasn't able to do JSA Vol. 1 #6

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Now I'm not saying Jay strikes harder than Superman (maybe he can if he goes light speed) but the fact that he could make a powerhouse like Black Adam bleed is very impressive. Plus Jay wasn't going extremely fast while he was fighting Adam based on the panel before this one. Adam doesn't have any impressive reaction/combat speed feats on consistent level. Even Hawkman had enough time to speak half a sentence before Adam caught him even tho he was trying to blitz him and move like a blur. Yet in the scanbefore this one, he had enough speed to keep up with Jay which only supports my claim from previous post on speedsters travelling around the speed of sound (more or less) on a daily basis.

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You can also consider narrator's hyperbolic statement on moving like lightning bolts as fact but lighting speed in measured in milliseconds which is millionth of a nanosecond. Light moves 1 foot per nanosecond and Jay actually has feats which prove he is faster than light but if we consider statements as facts and that Jay can't go above light speed, he was still moving million times slower than he can and even then, it wouldn't be his maximum speed. If Jay blitzes Rich at light speed and beat the shit out of him, he will eventually take him down. Jay is capable of beating people up until they fall down and is totally in character for him to throw barrage of punches, like he did to Mordru who was weakened but still powerful enough to overpower and almost kill Nabu JSA Vol. 1 #79

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This is just one of several showing of Jay punching people this way and most of them are more impressive than this one and I'll be happy to provide more scans if necessary. Same goes for Jay's striking power.

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Moving on...

I think it's needed from me to show why Richard could kep up with Jay because it's what makes him able to challenge him in this fight. Richard being a speedster in the Marvel universe makes this an interesting battle to see how they compare. That being said, Richard has shown some pretty impressive showings of speed which should be more than enough to suggest he can keep up with Jay.

Oh man, speed argument is coming...

While fighting Sphinx, Nova is overwhelmed by the powerful KA stones Sphinx possesses. So what does he do? He grabs the stones at extremely fast speeds out of Sphinx's helmet, flies to the sun, tosses it in there, and returns to the battlefield in no time at all. He moves so fast that by time he starts his sentence on earth, he finishes it when he reaches the sun. This indicates he probably reached the sun before he could finish a sentence. Nova Vol.3 #6

This also works for reaction speed because like Flashes, Nova Prime is able to move around objects in his path at the same speeds he's moving at. He doesn't slow down or buffer. Though, if Nova is being overwhelmed, he could most certainly accelerate his combat speed to make it so he can compare to Jay. Nova Vol 4. Annual #1

I see that he does not slow down but I don't see him using his combat speed in that instance. All I see is that he can accelerate his speed to fight extremely fast but can he really fight at the same level of speed as the level he operates on when he is flying? Because travelling is still totally different than combat speed. If he was travelling on foot than it makes more sense to me but flying is not the same thing. From what I remember, Rich's best combat speed feat is his showing with Lord Mar-Vell although he probably has more impressive feats. Still, based on the scan you showed me, Nova is capable of changing direction in a instant while travelling extremely fast but I doubt he was moving even light speed while changing direction and I don't see why he can fight at light speed either. Jay on the other hand has real light speed combat. He was fighting and beating various acolytes of Savitar. He had help from Bart and Wally but they were outnumbered so it is not like it matters Impulse #11

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To avoid confusion, John, Jesse and Max are there on the first scan and completely disappear on the next scan is because there are several panels between scan 1 and scan 2 showing John, Jesse and Max going after Savitar which I left out because they are not showing the fight between the 3 speedsters and Savitar's acolytes.

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The reason why I'm even posting these scans is because Savitar just shared the Speed Force energies to his acolytes which allows them to easily move in hyperspace which requires Light Speed. And they were not just travelling in hyperspace but moving and fighting in it with ease. Even Wally said they are moving as fast as he does Flash Vol. 2 #108

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You should look at the scan 3. Jay was able to throw his helmet so fast he actually tagged Savitar's acolytes while moving and run to the other side to catch his helmet. Here is Savitar giving his acolytes the speed force in the issue before their fight Flash Vol. 2 #110

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Savitar is from the story Dead Heat which takes place in Flash's book and Impulse's book both written by Mark Waid. Chronologically, Impulse #11 (the issue where they fight) comes out after Flash Vol. 2 #110 (the issue where Savitar gives them the Speed Force at the end).

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Based on Jay's consistent showing with other speedsters and his extremely slow perception of time, it is more likely that Jay will blitz Rich than the other way around. Jay was even able to blitz Wally West without any context like Wally being weakened and distracted. Actually, the only context is that Jay had 24 hours to live and he was extremely weakened and was still fast enough to blitz Wally. I could not find the scan anywhere but it happened in Green Lantern/Flash: Faster Friends #1 (issue 2 is called Flash/Green Lantern).

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The most difficult thing about fighting any Flash is their incredible speed, which is always on a very high level. Luckily, Richard isn't too shabby in that department himself, so he shouldn't have as much difficulty as most would trying to tag Jay. Not to say it will be easy for him, but it shouldn't be nearly as hard. As I've shown above, Richard should actually have comparable to Jay.

Maybe to a degree but Rich is not suppose to tag a fly. He is fighting someone with enough striking power to hurt him and I have yet to cover more abilities Jay has which can give him the win and prevent Rich from hurting him. Even if Rider tags Jay (which will be extremely hard and Jay might actually be closer to victory which I'll explain on my next post), it won't be a game changer or even less game over.

To go into detail how Nova can deal with Jay here, he can utilize his versality in order to keep him from using his fast movements effectively. For one, Nova can use his gravity force to manipulate gravity and keep Jay gravity which is what he did to Strontian. Seeing how Strontian is much stronger than Jay, I don't see how he would be capable of breaking free from this without vibrating through the ground. Given he would be in some pain, it may take some time for him to actually vibrate through the ground in-which Prime can follow it up with an attack of his own. Nova Vol.4 #26-27

Cool, so we agree he can vibrate to escape? Good. The only thing you are questioning is his speed which should not be a problem. During his easily days (days of World War II) when he was much less experienced and way slower than he is now, Jay was able to vibrate so fast to allow the explosion unleashed by Stalker's disciple to pass through him. Jay wasn't even expecting the explosion and it came out without any warning. Jay thought he was about to KO his opponent and he still vibrated fast enough to avoid any kind of damage from the explosion Justice Society Returns Part 4: National Comics #1

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Mostly the level of speed and the time period between detonation and travelling as far as it can until the explosion stops is based on the mass of element used to produce the explosion. It is unknown what is used to give Stalker's disciple this ability but mostly neutrons travel 10 million meters per second, or 10 meters per microsecond.

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Fact that reaction/reflexes are usually based on movement like dodging something like a bullet takes just few inches to move, or moving your whole body for a whole meter to dodge barrage of bullets like Captain America and Spider-man, the distance from the point before they start dodging and after they dodged is usually equal to 1 or 2 meters. Either you consider reaction to be moving few inches or few meters/feet, it is a rare thing to see someone react in 10 meters per second and it mostly not even considered reaction speed anymore. Because of this, the time it takes for Jay to vibrate and phase through something while being distracted is less than a microsecond (around 0.1 microseconds or 100 nanoseconds, maybe even less). And this is without taking the element used to activate the explosion because if it is around the same mass as uranium (more or less), the feat would actually be 10x more impressive because the mas of uranium is 0.1 meters and not full on meters like I calculated. Because there is no evidence it is uranium, I'll try to make the feat the least impressive as possible. It was still preformed by way slower and way less experienced Jay who did not expect the attack.

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I would also like to know how Rich will be able to use gravity manipulation on someone as fast as Jay. He may he able to react to him but can he really use gravity manipulation as fast as his or Jay's movement? I doubt it but feel free to prove me wrong. I also don't see why Rich will try to attack Jay when he is held back by gravity. Rich might as well already consider himself a winner because the opponent is incapacitated. Before Worldmind informs him about Jay still being a threat, Jay might as well free himself already. Even if he does attack him I am pretty sure Jay can tank his blows (which I'll prove on my next post if I have to). Still, I don't see why he could even tag Jay who defeated Light Speedsters already and blitzed above top tier speedsters like Wally West while dying.

Another method that can be used is Nova releasing omni-directional blasts which span his entire bodily area. This would be effective given Flashes love to blitz their opponents from all directions, which wouldn't work out well for Jay. In order to not only get him off but also stun Jay for a follow up attack, he could do this. Nova Vol.4 #21

Which is the exact same type of attack Jay countered with his phasing. Although I don't think Nova's blasts are as fast as explosions. For the sake of the argument and the possibility of Rich using that ability while Jay blitzes him, Jay outran the explosion while bullrushing Stalker's disciple in the same fight in the same issue as the scan above even tho he was in front of him and continued to run forward.

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Let's see what else you got in store for me...

He can create gravimetric force-fields which should be capable of keeping Jay from beating on him physically. Nova Vol.4 #20

And Jay could phase through them to continue with his attack like he phased through the glass Green Lantern Corps Quarterly #3

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Moving on...

Nova Prime has comparable speed to Jay via his flight which should give an advantage someone grounded wouldn't have. He could even accelerate his speed.

Actually the only thing I saw was Rich's ability to accelerate his combat speed to currently unknown levels and being capable of instantly changing direction while flying at super speed even which seems to be super sonic at best.

Nova Prime is much stronger and strikes much harder than Jack can.

Much stronger? Indeed but that advantage is a non factor. Strikes much harder? I don't think so.

Nova Prime can shrug off every blow Jay sends his way and can come back for more.

I respectfully disagree. Black Adam didn't shrug them off.

Gravity force with an energy blast should work wonders in putting Jay down.

I would have to disagree with this as well.

Could release omni-directional blasts to stop Jay's speed-blitz and stun him.

Unfortunately, Jay found himself in the exact same situation twice in the same fight in the same issue at the time he was not as nearly as fast and not as nearly as experienced and he countered it perfectly.

His gravimetric force-fields should be more than capable of keeping Jay out.

Probably the most problematic thing I could think of besides Rich's potential speed but I am pretty sure Jay can counter it.

Conclusion

I don't actually want to jump to any conclusions just yet. The debate just started. However there is a reason why I think Jay beats Rich based on current argument and that is mostly because the most impressive stuff I have seen from Rich is traveling speed which won't be as helpful as Jay's because of Jay's superior perception and brain functions. I have yet to see that combat speed. When it comes to durability, you are probably gonna mention how one showing against Eobard Thawne is not enough to show Jay's durability but as I said, I will focus more on durability later. When it comes to Jay's striking power, I think it is enough to eventually put Rich down. Rich could potentially tag Jay but even if he does it won't be a game changer and Jay can deal with it with the use of his ability to make himself intangible by vibrating at super speed and Jay still has massive speed advantage when it comes to combat speed and reaction time speed/reflexes. Rich's versatile will give Jay problems but he has ways to counter it (vibrating, moving too fast to be used against him, Rich being busy because of Jay's attacks...). IIRC, Rich has more abilities he could use to win but so does Jay and I have yet to bring them all to the table.

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#42 Edited by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio

@themultiversity: Post is up bro. I can provide links to comics those scans came from in case you need more info.

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#43 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: That's a very good post. I can tell you're going to be very problematic, I'm gonna have to take my time with this CaV, lol.

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#44 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio

@themultiversity: LOL me too. Thanks. BDW, how many CaVs are you working on at the moment (excluding this one)?

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#45 Edited by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio

@themultiversity: LOL me too. Thanks. BDW, how many CaVs are you working on at the moment (excluding this one)?

No problem and two other CaV's. One is almost done and the other just begun.

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#46 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio

@themultiversity:

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I know you're currently working on other CaVs and you said it will take some time to continue with this but a week passed so I just want to make sure you didn't forget about this.

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#48 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Edited by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by KrleAvenger (26108 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for voters.