Thanks for the tag! TF4 please!
CaV: Nightwing (Batman3000) vs Daredevil (KrleAvenger) (Krle Won)
Matthew "Matt" Murdock - Daredevil The Man Without Fear
Introduction:
There is no need to waste time with this so here is Daredevil's Origin from Offical Marvel Handbook (from 2004).
Equipment
- Billy Clubs.
He uses them to punch people, swing around like Spider-man, throw them or even protect himself (I'll ge more into that later).
Radar Sense/Agility/Speed/Refexes
= Stealth. I'd like to think I'm an expert on Dardevil but perhaps you have something on his radar sense to counter nearly Batman-like stealth (I'll also get into stealth next post as well.)
I know this is the last part of your post but I'll actually stop you right there. You should not even bother over stealth. I though we agreed we will use the location where our characters can use their agility. The roof we decided to use is not in any form, a place to use stealth capabilities. It is good for agility but not for stealth. I think we clearly decided to go for agility and not stealth. Anyway that wont help Dick at all. Daredevil actually has a type of 360 degree view with his radar. Like a bat, but much better.
Here is a better explanation on Daredevil's Radar Sense and comparison with other characters with Super Senses.
Matt can even sense the change of molecules in electro magnetic spectrum.
If you want to see how agile and fast Matt is, well the scans you posted are impressive but it does not really any close as impressive as dancing around Spider-man so effectively that he can't land a real punch and trust me, he is not playing around.
And even more impressively, he lands a counter attack on Spider-man's face. Matt's reflexes are also beyond that of a Normal human.
He reflects bullets using his billy clubs. I know people are gonna say how bullet timing is a standard thing for street level characters but in truth it is not. Usually street level characters move so fast that the shooters can't get a bead on them and they just shoot without that bullet ever being meant to it him as they were already out of the range of the bullet. With Daredevil it is not the same way. The shooter clearly had a bead on him and the bullet started to travel before Daredevil even started to react. When the shot was fired he reflected it. Daredevil is the real bullet timer and he reflects them, he is not just dodging them.
Moving on...
Strength
SQUATTING AN ORCA'S MOUTH!
This is the only feat I actually would care addressing since all the other ones can be copied by Daredevil easily. I don't really like saying Street Level characters suffer from outliers. It is not like he stopped a T-Rex or held his own against Superman, but in some form it looks like a high end feat. But instead of going over rubbish arguments I will actually try to calculate that feat.
The force of Orca's bite is a little above 19,000 PSI, source.
So if we calculate that feat in tons then we get...
So Dick (which I assume at that time was Batman and not Nightwing by the suit) held a little more than 9 and a half ton. We all know that in comics Peak Humans are Super Humans. The feat, while overall very well impressive, is not actually enough to prove how Dick is very well superior to Matt in strength. Let me give you a summary on Daredevil's strength and how it got upgraded over the years.
During Silver Age under Stan Lee, Matt was already fighting the most skilled people from the Marvel Universe and was one of top tier street level characters. However, under Frank Miller (seen by many as the greatest writer for Daredevil ever) changed Matt and made him much greater beast than he already was. And not to mention Brain Michael Bendis's Run where Daredevil went on a whole new levels after his massive training and fights he had over Hell's Kitchen with the likes of Elektra and Bullseye. Let's look at Kingpin.
To give you an idea on how skilled Kingpin is, he outskilled people like Captain America but look at these scans.
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Here you can see Fisk fighting 8 master martial artists and all of them are from the best martial arts schools of the world. No make it even more ridiculous, they are using weapons and are attacking Fisk all at one and nobody is even able to land a hit on him and in 17 seconds they are all defeated and was even complaining on how easy it was.
He can also easily open a vault where he stores all the files of crime bosses (scan 1) yet Daredevil could not open them until he started to break his bones (scan 2 and 3).
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Right when he entered he was attacked by Daredevil (who at the time was a peak human himself) and he has a huge advantage considering the fact that Fisk, can't see in the dark while Matt has his radar sense.
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Look at scan 1. Matt attacks Fisk with his attacks, using his agility as an advantage. He said his attacks would cripple a normal human, yet Fisk is not hurt at all. Matt even stated it is like hitting a rock and asks himself is Fisk even a human. Then he punches him and he hurts his legs so much that he screams. Clearly Fisk is so stronger and so much more durable that Daredevil is no match for him. Than in scan 2 you see Matt stating how he is actually hurting himself fighting against Kingpin without Kingpin even being capable of delivering any damage as he is too blind because of darkness. Yet Daredevil is hurt by punching Fisk. Then one hit, and Daredevil gets out right KOed. Let's look at Matt's fights against Spider-man (one during Silver Age, another one in the black suit).
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He is more than capable of holding his own against Spider-man, even the one who holds back less (black suit). Right on the next scan, Matt reflects a bullet with his billy club. See what I'm trying to show you? How big of a beast Kingpin is. Spider-man has problems with Daredevil yet Daredevil almost beat himself up by only punching Fisk. To give you a little bit of better showing of Fisk's strength and durability.
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- Overpowers Red Skull, who is almost equal to Steve Rogers in Strength (Steve actually has 10-20 tons feats).
- Spider-man gets hurt a bit after punching Fisk and Fisk gets up right after (Classic Spider-man is solid 15 tonner).
- Is not hurt by headlock from Spider-man.
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Here you can see Fisk matching Spider-man in strength. I know Spider-man is capable of stomping Fisk but he did that only when his powers were at peak as an adult (as more like 30 tonner at the time) and was really inraged. Spider-man can't be hurt even by normal trained humans and is very well capable of one shotting them even while holding back. Yet he does not do the same with Fisk. Actually he clearly states that Fisk could kill him (or at least injure him a lot) and he even asks himself is Fisk a mutant. Spider-man is aware of Fisk's strength and clearly does not take him lightly as he does with normal human beings.
See how Daredevil was outclassed? He was fighting a foe way out of his league, who was beating or holding his own against 10-20 tonners without being damaged while they got overpowered.
Now I'm not gonna get into the Frank Miller's Daredevil and how OP he became compare to his Silver Age counter part as compare to Fisk, he could break his nose while bloodlusted but he was still taken down rather easily by Fisk (and Matt wanted to kill Fisk here).
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What I'm trying to say is that Fisk is a monster. He is easily a match and is more than capable of overpowering Solid 10-15-20 tonners like Red Skull, Captain America and Spider-man. In fact, I'm sure either of those 3 would not only stop a bite from orca, but they could probably rip her skull apart.
Now lets look at what Brain Michael Bendis did to DDaredevil. During this time, Kingpin became even more of a beast (yeah, even more, if that is even possible) and then, he finally went face to face with Daredevil. They were fighting and thanks to Daredevil's skill improvement and not to mention his upgrade in overall strength and endurance through his fights with the likes of Bullseye and Elektra and other masters of martial arts in Hell's Kitchen, allowed Matt to ultimately come out on top against a beast like Fisk.
And he has done that through the combination of his strength, endurance and overall fighting skill and knowledge on martial arts.The most impressive thing is that he did not even rely on his speed and he almost did not use his agility, which are overall, two greatest factors in anything when it comes to Daredevil. See how impressive Daredevil has become?
I actually do believe Daredevil has greater strength than Dick has, only because he improved so much that he defeated a guy who danced around over 10-20 tonners consistently, without using his agility and strength as an advantage.
Martial Arts Skill/Fighting Experience
Does very well against Batman.
Aaaaa, mate, do you want me to edit the OP? Because clearly, that is New 52 comic. I know based on the appearance of Batman's suit and clearly on the cover it stated it is New 52. If you want to use New 52 and Pre-Flashpoint feats, let me know and I'll edit the OP. By the look of the fight, it is overall impressive but based on the way they are fighting and the dialogue, Dick was fighting against Bruce more than Bruce was fighting against Dick. And by the way I know Batman was not rebooted via Flashpoint but does that mean we can still count his feats Pre-Flashpoint? Because New 52 had continuity errors and by pure showing he does not really look like as impressive as he was Pre-Flashpoint. But instead of playing a hypocrite, I'll just show you how Daredevil overpowering Black Panther in pure H2H Combat.
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I'm not trying to say how Daredevil is somehow more skilled or is he on the same level as T'Challa. He isn't. Neither is Dick compare to Bruce, but his showing against Panther is overall impressive. I know, this is Panther before Hickman and does not have knowledge and experience of every other Black Panther but this is Silver Age Comic and this Daredevil is way weaker than the one from Frank Miller's era and that Daredevil was well below the one from Bendis run. Matt also stomped Lady Bullseye.
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Here is everything that you need to know about her from Marvel's Handbook Entry.
...
Adapts to Hwa Wang in little time.
How effective he is using Hwa Wang? What feats he has with that fighting style and how often is he using it? I'll need to context.
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That is all for now. I could get more into Daredevil's radar, skill and speed and agility and overall how he could win but I decided to keep it simple and just prove how he is a match for Dick and later I'll go over why I think Daredevil would beat Dick after your next post. With that being said, I'm excited to see how this will go on. Make sure to answer some questions O asked for the future of the argument. Your turn @batman3000.
@krleavenger: Dang almost forgot about this. Sorry :(
You should not even bother over stealth. I though we agreed we will use the location where our characters can use their agility. The roof we decided to use is not in any form, a place to use stealth capabilities. It is good for agility but not for stealth. I think we clearly decided to go for agility and not stealth.
Geez I headbusted myself. Sorry bout that.
If you want to see how agile and fast Matt is, well the scans you posted are impressive but it does not really any close as impressive as dancing around Spider-man so effectively that he can't land a real punch and trust me, he is not playing around.
Problem is though I'd argue there are more instances where Spidey has danced around him to the extent of DD saying he can't see him.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the same wouldn't happen to Nightwing (Although I think he can handle it better) however I think Marvel's (in general) made it clear that a Spidey who's serious is faster than DD. Not just by showings against each other either. But comparing their feats too.
Spidey:
And finally:
Aaaaa, mate, do you want me to edit the OP? Because clearly, that is New 52 comic. I know based on the appearance of Batman's suit and clearly on the cover it stated it is New 52. If you want to use New 52 and Pre-Flashpoint feats, let me know and I'll edit the OP. By the look of the fight, it is overall impressive but based on the way they are fighting and the dialogue, Dick was fighting against Bruce more than Bruce was fighting against Dick. And by the way I know Batman was not rebooted via Flashpoint but does that mean we can still count his feats Pre-Flashpoint? Because New 52 had continuity errors and by pure showing he does not really look like as impressive as he was Pre-Flashpoint. But instead of playing a hypocrite, I'll just show you how Daredevil overpowering Black Panther in pure H2H Combat.
Ugh disappointed in myself. Sorry about that I totally forgot.
If you want to use New 52 and Pre-Flashpoint feats, let me know and I'll edit the OP
All good yo I'll manage. Thanks for the offer.
Conclusion
-There are still things I want to cover next post (in greater detail) such as endurance, strength, and durability
- For now though I fell Dick holds a skill advantage
-And gear helps Richard to a greater extent
-Finally I feel agility and speed (combat wise as well) is Richard's (i.e. dodging speed kick from Jesse, Dancing around bullets, contending with superhuman, etc.)
Round 2
Problem is though I'd argue there are more instances where Spidey has danced around him to the extent of DD saying he can't see him.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the same wouldn't happen to Nightwing (Although I think he can handle it better) however I think Marvel's (in general) made it clear that a Spidey who's serious is faster than DD. Not just by showings against each other either. But comparing their feats too.
Spidey:
Literally catching bullets with webs.
Catches two bullets.. Sort of
The best for last....
Webs a barrel of a gun after trigger is pulled but before bullet fires.
I'll stop here because I feel like you're aware of this.
Yes you are right. Spider-man is faster and overall more dangerous than Daredevil in pretty much any shape and form (minus skill and senses). That does not change the fact that you took my Spider-man scans in a totally wrong way mate. They are not there to prove how Matt is somehow faster than Peter (he is not and I never said he is). They are there to show Matt's incredible speed and agility. Fact that he could hold his own against a dangerous foe like Spider-man really proves how fast Matt is himself. Let's look at Daredevil Special #3 which happened long before either Peter or Matt became street level powerhouses as we known them (or for Spider-man, it may actually be low end mid tier). This is actually a full fight of the scan I showed you on my first post where Peter can't land a solid punch.
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In truth, Matt lost that fight but losing to Spider-man is nothing bad. Especially because overall the reason why he lost is because of Peter's overall superior strength which put him down. Dick is not as strong as Spider-man and will not be so lucky against Daredevil, especially the one after his training with Stick and his greater experience in Hell's Kitchen during 2000s. The scan you posted happened in Amazing Spider-Man #438 and in truth, it is not a valid way to try to make Daredevil's feats less impressive. Context of the scan is that Spider-man was saving civilians and at one point, he was hypnotized and started to see Daredevil as a robot who is a threat to the civilians in that same comic.
Matt spend all that time in a fight trying to dodge and calm Peter down as if anyone would rather give his life to prevent any civilian from getting hurt, even less killed, it is Peter. Even more so that his Spider Sense did not really kicked in as he was either hypnotized on such a level that his Spider Sense did not work or he could not feel it or it is just based on a plot. Either way, it does not imply that Peter suffered from CIS in a fight with Daredevil considering the fact that Daredevil did not land a single punch to Spider-man because Peter was attacking him as he thought he was fighting a killer robot in the first place. Matt with his super senses himself find out Peter was hypnotized and tried to calm him down.
He was not fighting him nor did he land a counter attack with his blows nor did he use his billy clubs. It was all dodging Spider-man who was trying to take down non existing threat to the civilians. Add to the fact that Peter thought he was fighting a robot, not a human being. Why fodders stay on their legs after Peter punches them? Because he uses 10% of his strength and overall power set if not less and would do so against guys like Captain America and other street level characters in modern area, where he is a solid 40 tonner. For this instance, it is not the same way.
Why Peter then stands a chance against guys like Venom, Carnage, Dock Ock... when they are one shotting 10+ fodders at the same time? Because he holds back less against super humans. In other way each and every one of his villains would stomp him. Then there is Dock Ock who overpowered him more than once but usually, they are alone when they fight and there are instances when civilians are in danger and at that time, Peter cuts loose even more and easily defeated Dock Ock or at least way easier than we see him fighting against his foes on regular basis. So in fact, Peter did not suffer from CIS at all. He actually, by logic and characters moral/fighting style consistency, Peter held back less because of context of this fight being against a robot in his mind and not his friend Daredevil. Rule you are trying to imply for Matt being overpowered by Spider-man does not work here as Peter is fighting in a totally different way in the scan you posted
Part where Matt said "even tho I knew he was gonna throw that punch, I still could not dodge with all my speed and reflexes". This is actually WIS. The writter clearly did not know much about Daredevil's power set. Besides the fact that Daredevil had trouble locating Spider-man with his senses because of his wast speed (which I find it to be writers mistake to be honest as Matt's senses are way more impressive than he thinks), Matt can actually move as fast as he can think. If he knew Peter is gonna throw that punch, he should be able to move. However he can't react at the same time he thinks. It would take him at least part of a milisecond to move which is such a small time period that we can say "at the same time". So while it can be implied that Peter was moving so fast, that Daredevil could not react in that small time period, it is invalid either way because of the next scan in that issue you missed, where Matt dances around Peter almost the same way Barry danced around Clark in Justice League #2.
There is also that weird part where Matt implies "my advantage is that Spider-man's brain is clouded by the hypnosis, so he is not operating at peak efficiency" is outright wrong because of the context. The only thing the hypnosis did to him is mess with his senses to the point where he thinks he is fighting a robot. Statement Daredevil made is going against the actual context of the comic and the fight because there is no reason for hypnosis to affect Peter in a way to make Daredevil's feat less impressive, if anything, it is actually more impressive that it should because of the fact that Peter thinks he is fighting a robot who is danger to the civilians which should make him hold back less if hold back at all (and not holding back is not the same as being bloodlusted which Peter is obviously not in this fight). Hell, even tho he sees a giand bulky robot who should not be agile, his punches still travel at the same direction Matt is moving with his agility, so in any shape or form and without any logic or evidence is Peter less effective than he usually is as all context and on panel evidence actually proves he is more dangerous than usually given the fact that while he was still making jokes, he indents to hold back less every time he faces a super powered civilian threat, even less robot which he should not be afraid of destroying and tearing apart with his strength as it is not human.
That writter was stating something totally opposite from what was actually shown on panel. Like Peter not being at his best for no good reason, or stating on scan you posted, how he could not dodge Peter even tho right on the next scan, Matt was consistently dodging him and even later dodged his webb at point blanke. To prove my point even furhter, lets look at Daredevil Annual #5 where Matt fought hypnotized Spider-man again.
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Here, Daredevil himself stated how Peter can't dodge simple attacks. Again he was hypnotized and given the fact how Peter consistently fights people more powerful than him or just as powerful but making him more dangerous considering the fact that they are without morals and are willing to kill, put Peter in situations where he has to rely on his intellect and with years of experience in fighting on the street against various meta humans overall gave him some level of skill, a skill Captain America and other top tier fighters explored against Peter more than once until he learned how to fight, making him more dangerous. However he was dangerous before and here, as Matt said, he fights like an animal without using his skills, which is still impressive enough when you think about all those feats he preformed before he learned how to fight.
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Again, I am not saying how Matt is as fast, even less faster than Peter. But in order to keep up with him with lower speed, you still have to be incredible fast, tactical, smart, skilled and also, unpredictable to be capable of fighting or even overpower (not physically but in a fight) powerhouses like Spider-man. If anything, those scans prove how fast, skilled and tactical Matt can be.
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The scans you posted for Spider-man are nice but they are not as impressive as the ones Matt preformed. I will copy/paste my ost from my CaV against TAP.
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Actually Daredevil blocked bullets consistently using his billy clubs.
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Here I have three scans where he reflects a bullet and two scans where he reflects two bullets at the same time. You might say how he was ready as he expected the bullet. You can't really say that. That woul not be correct to say for the one reason. Matt will not know when the bullet will be fired. He can't see the future so he is not aware when the bullet will be fired. He reacts tobullets.
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Still, not trying to prove how Matt is somehow faster than Spider-man. Those scans are just here to prove how he is not that far as logically pure showings against other characters does not work well enough as by that logic, Jane Foster should be above Odin, Red Hulk should be above Watcher, Spider-man should be above Firelord... Same rule does not imply for Daredevil however, as he actually has feats to show his ridiculous speed as he is casual bullet timer.
You're absolutely right. But the same can't be applied for Batman like characters such as Nightwing
Uses Firefly as a human shield from bullets (don't get the wrong idea though suit IS bulletproof.)
Goes as far as too do so on a motorcycle
An example of reactions being better than Batman's
Dodging Machine gun fire while on a speeding car and impressively flips into Bat-Cycle
I don't see that Firefly feat being valid as bullet timing. He was already behind him and it is very possible he used him as a shield before those bullets were fired. Motocycle feat is very debatable but I guess it can fall into that category. The other two scans are pretty impressive but I don't see them as impressive as Matt reflecting bullets.
I actually had the calculation just didn't want to bore everyone xD
I am sure you could. Still I did it for you which does not make your argument any less valid, it is just there for the voters to have an idea how impressive that feat is. However there is some context I forgot to mention in my first post. Dick actually used his legs to stop lower jaw of Orca and supported it with his arms holding to Orca's upper jaw. And just like with humans, power of Orca's bite comes from lower jaw. Dick actually used his legs to stop the bite while using strength of his arms and overall power of muscles in his body (again supported by his arms holding upper jaw of orca that imply almost 0 force) to stop the bite and hold it of which actually makes this feat less impressive than being solid 9-10 ton feat. Unless Dick will charge and unleash full power of his body (which is funny and it wont work for obvious reasons), feat does not make Dick solid 10 tonner, which actually says something considering the fact that that is the most impressive feat of strength you posted for Dick. On the other hand, guys like Cap, Spider-man and Red Skull have solid 10-15 ton feats and Kingpin, while I consider him below Spider-man and Cap, is still capable of overpowering them and he proceed to one shot Daredevil and easily beat him when Miller took over but was ultimatly defeated by Matt during Bendis's run.
Not really anything Nightwing couldn't do if we're talking PURELY skill. I refer you back to handbook scan where Nightwing is stated to be#2. But showings>statements right?
True, Nightwing could beat Cap as well. However it does not change the fact that both Batman and Cap would beat Dick and Daredevil 7/10. Still you did not understand the point of my Kingpin Argument. It is not there to show how Matt can beat ridiculously good fighters. While Kingpin is one, he is well below the likes of Nightwing. Point of my argument is to show you just how PHYSICALLY DANGEROUS MATT IS, NOT TO SHOW HIS INCREDIBLE SKILL. I showed you how much of a monster Fisk is yet Matt has been working out and became better to the point where he defeated a guy who overpoweres 10 tonners, which Dick by feats, is below that level of strength. That is to prove how Daredevil is overall stronger and can tank more damage and beating than Dick from what you showed me. If I wanted to show how skilled Matt is, I would show you his fights against the likes of Captain America, Black Panther, Deadpool, Iron Fist, Sabretooth, Wolverine...
Defeats Shrike while injured who had already beat and capture Black Canary, a fellow top tier DC fighter
I find Elektra to be almost as good as Black Canary even before her death. And Bullsye pretty much stomped her. Remember her famous death at the hands of Bullseye from Daredevil #181?
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Matt defeated Bullseye more than once but here is one of my favorite ones.
When Daredevil cut loose when he remmebered both Karen and Elektra (both of his girlfriends that Bullseye killed), he pretty much stomped him.
(Had trouble with order here it's supposed to go 4,2,1,3) Fight with Roy Harper.
Both of those feats are impressive. Although I don't see why Roy Harper wont be beaten badly by Daredevil. Neither do I see Jason being anywhere close to Matt. To show you anyother great showing of Matt's skill, where he was evenly matched with Danny Rand, Iron Fist himself Daredevil #87.
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In chase you don't know, Danny is one of top 3 best fighters in the Marvel Universe. Rivaled only by the likes of Steve Rogers and T'Challa, the Black Panther. And that is Rand without using his powers. True he used Daredevil's fighting style here as this is the period where Danny actually operated as Daredevil, during the events of great Super Human Civil War between Iron-man and Captain America. However, it does not matter what fighting style you are using but how well you can preform it. Considering the fact how Danny is overall better fighter than both Dick and Matt, it does not make this feat less impressive because Danny is uisng Matt's fighting style as he can probably preform it just as good as Matt. However, Matt got the best of him, landing his strikes and tagging Danny which is impressive showing of skill, speed, agility and unpredictability, considering the fact that Danny is already faster, more skilled and knows Matt fighting style. Still that did not stop him from landing solid blows while goign as far as dodge Danny's own.
Even took the advantage of his billy clubs, throwing it at such accuracy that it reflects back from the pillar, hitting Danny in the head. Impressive that billy club actually had enough force to hurt meta human like Danny even tho most of the force of the throw should be lost after going in contact with the pillar. He even used his agility and speed to get the best of Danny and throw him backwards to the point that Danny did something he never did since he used the identity of Daredevil, he used his Iron Fist to finish the fight. And Matt dodged it! To give you an idea on how fast Danny is, he could dodge a bullet at point blanke range and moving like a blur and could easily catch a bullet going at him at him almost from point blanke range while not being at his peak.
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I am not sure I need to go over Danny's super human abilities and physical advantages, he is still on the same tier as Cap when it comes to skill and he already knows Matt's fighting style which makes Matt more predictable given the fact that anyone who can fight on the same tier as Captain America studies opponent's fighting techniques and how to counter them, making Daredevil more predictable and removing some of his advantages of being unpredictable himself. AND HE STILL GOT BESTED BY MATT ON FOR FIRST TWO PANELS. This is what it means to be peak human. This is how skilled Daredevil is.
Fights evenly with Cass who at this point had trained extensively with Bruce and as you may know has a pre-cognition type power.
Yes I know how dangerous Cassy is and is the only member of the Bat-Family who I consider to be capable of beating Daredevil more times than not (besides Batman of course). However from that scan you posted, I only see Dick getting bested by Cass pretty easily. I don't think Dick ever preformed feats like fighting evenly with top tier fighters of DC like Cass or Batman. Yes he can hold his own, but not get the best of them for few moments like Matt did with Spider-man or Iron Fist. Unless of course you provide some evidence.
Defeats Huntress in a few moves
Impressive. Matt was getting the best of Shuri pretty easily in Original Sin: Daredevil #7. In fact, he was trolling around her not going into direct fight and the fact that Shuri is trained by her Half-Brother T'Challa who I consider to be, better than Batman in every way minus tactical and detective skill and overall intellect (in which I consider them equals which is inferior for this topic), and that Matt got the best of her without even trying (which I can't say the same for Dick considering the fact that he did not know he was fighting Huntress in the scan you posted so he was not playing mister nice guy), I consider this feat more impressive they yours. Especially because Shuri is meta human with enhanced senses, strength, speed, agility, endurance...
Moving on...
That's impressive however I'm even more impressed with how Dick can do the like with League of Assassins, S.W.A.T. and (a consistent basis) fighting the most skilled people in the DCU and in some cases makes jokes of them.
Again that is just to show how good of a fighter Kingpin is and not just brute. Which is dangerous considering the fact that he is already Silver/Bronze Age Spider-man tier without agility (which was never problem for him considering the fact he gets the best of agile characters like Spider-man and Daredevil). The fact that he is so skilled makes Daredevil's showing against Kingpin in Bendis's run even more impressive and not just Strength/Endurance feat as he defeated killing machine with strength, but killing machien with strength AND SKILL. Main point was Daredevil's physical ability to deal and take damage. As I already said, skill argument is focused on his showing against the lies of Iron Fist.
Again I feel Nightwing is overall stronger than DD and if there's any disbelief about that I'll give more feats.
Please do. Because I calculated and debunked orca feat for being less that 10 tons while Kingpin overpowered people who are on that level and above.
And Daredevil not being as strong as any of them must beat him through skill just as I'm sure Nightwing could do like he was taught to.
Matt may not be as strong as them but his pure strength put Kingpin down. He still had enough endurance to continue fighting after his blows and had enough strength to hurt him and ultimatly beat him. In fact, strength was a huge part in that fight because Fisk was never that far below Matt skillwise in the first place. Why do you think he could hold his own against Red Skull who is not only his physical equal or superior but always gave Cap a hard time and defeated Bucky when he was in Cap's body (which does not give him Cap's skill, it was all his own) if he does not have any skill on his level or above? In fact, Matt hurt Fisk with a nerve strike, so Fisk needed a moment to recover so he threw Matt to the side. However, Matt get up and beat the shit out of him. It is pure strength feat and the only part where he used skill was during the end of the fight was when he punched him in the face (which is not because of speed either as that was never a problem when he fought Spider-man or Daredevil). Of course I am talking about the end of the fight, not the fight overall.
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Moving on yet again...
I feel I've provided enough feats for skill and I can get to more Endurance next post however I'm short on time and don't want to forget this again
I'm looking forward to those feats. However you might need more than just endurance mate :)
Just like Bruce Nightwing's hella accurate with his projectiles.
So is Matt. One of his feats is his showing against Iron Fist.
Bouncing Escrima
Knocks away coin in mid air with Wing Ding.
While those feats show Dick's extreme accuracy, no evidence to prove he can actually tag Daredevil. Fact that he casually reflects multiple bullets and has wast senses, I don't see him getting tagged by those attacks. I am actually questioning Dick's ability to find time to do so, as he will have to deal with Matt's superior agility and combat skill (unless you prove otherwise in the next post). And if he tries to throw his sticks at Matt, I am pretty sure Matt could dodge them considering the fact that he could dance around Spider-man in issue #438. You will have to show me Dick tagging master of martial arts with those sticks. Especially someone as skilled, tactical, unpredictable and fast as Matt who has ridiculous senses.
Suit-taser FTW (Can be used if DD gets a hold of Richard [I was about to say Dick but then I re-read sentence....})
Matt will not try to "get hold of" Dick. He will use his fists and legs to kick him or with his billy clubs. Besides, Matt's senses are so effective, he could easily sense tasers in his suit. Look how effective his senses are.
It is totally self-explanatory and I really think there is no need for further details. This post is big enough to begin with. But for the sake of the argument, let's look at his training with Stick where Matt lost is radar sense. So now, Stick teaches him "natural radar sense" (Matt's original radar came from radioactive chemicals that blinded him when he was a kid). As Matt implies, he can feel everything.
"The target, you. How can I ever thank you?" "Concentrate, reach out in yer mind, yer gonna get your radar back, or yer gonna die." Matt more or less, can feel everything. To get even more ridiculous when it comes to speed, his radar was activated right at the time arrow was few inches close to hitting him. Then Matt sensed it, reacted to it, turned and hit the arrow with suck speed it pretty much stayed on the exact same spot, but even more, his hit it with such accuracy that it hit the bullseye. According to mythbusterstheexhibition.com, arrows travel 250 feet per second.
It also stated that if a regular human being sees the shooter of the arrow, even if it's reaction time is 0.20 seconds, he steel needs to be 50 feet away from the arrow in order to dodge it. And that is once you see the shooter. Matt on the other hand, he did not even know the arrow was there until it was few inches close to killing him. Yet not only he had enough time to react to something moving 250 feet per second that was few inches close to him, but he turned and hit the arrow with such accuracy to hit the bullseye. In short, Matt is ridiculously fast and accurate.
Suit Laser (easier to counter as a case could be made that Matt could just outrun it however I'm not sure that's 100% plausible with a man of Dick's skill.)
Does Dick use those lasers in combat or is that an equipment he uses in situations like the ones you just showed in that scan. And if he does use them, how effective is it? Can his fighting style adapt to it? Is it fast enough to tag Daredevil? Is it effective enough against Masters of Martial Arts like Matt?
Insanely powerful explosives
I am pretty sure Matt can dodge explosives.
And the list goes on.....
I know list goes on and on but you should focus more on equipment Dick actually uses consistently in character. Then again, I am not gonna tell you what to do. You are knowledgeable on Dick here. Not me. I can take your word for it but you will have to convince the voters mate.
-There are still things I want to cover next post (in greater detail) such as endurance, strength, and durability
Looking forward to it.
- For now though I fell Dick holds a skill advantage
I respectfully disagree. You need more evidence to prove that.
-And gear helps Richard to a greater extent
Again, I need more evidence to see why gear I am actually aware Dick uses all the time will be effective against Matt and gear like lasers, is it actually used consistently and effectively in a fight? I have two more parts of the argument for Matt and his fighting style I did not mention and one of them involves billy clubs but I will mention them on my next post because as I already said, this post is way too long.
-Finally I feel agility and speed (combat wise as well) is Richard's (i.e. dodging speed kick from Jesse, Dancing around bullets, contending with superhuman, etc.)
I will have to disagree with this as well. But I'll be looking forward to your next post and more scans. Because so far, it looks to me like Dick is outmatched in every category minus the versatility of his gear (which is a non factor unless you show me otherwise). With that being said, this is what I am sure of so far...
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Matt is stronger, faster, more accurate, more agile and more unpredictable than Dick. He is more skilled and more tactical fighter. He preformed impressive feat with his billy clubs against Iron Fist (which is one part of the argument I actually want to get into in a more detail on my next post) and Matt's speed combined with his experience, skill, agility and of course, senses, will allow him to beat Dick.
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@batman3000 Good luck with your next post.
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