CaV: Naruto vs Ichigo, Luffy, and Meliodas

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emperorthanos-

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#1  Edited By emperorthanos-  Moderator
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Rules:

  • In Character but know the other side is a threat.
  • Random Encounter
  • Basic Knowledge
  • No BFR
  • Standard Gear
  • Perfect Teamwork
  • Gear 4 BoundMan Luffy(No time limit)
  • Composite Ichigo
  • Current Meliodas
  • BSM Naruto(Boruto Feats Allowed)

Voters:

  • Please refrain from posting your opinion on the match until it's done.
  • Ask to be tagged if you wished to be tagged for voting.
  • Don't vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who had the better arguments.
  • When giving your vote, give an explanation on why you think the person won.
  • If you have any questions or concerns regarding the match up, PM us.

Battle Location:

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emperorthanos-

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#2 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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TheWatcherKing

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Hmm,t4v.

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#5 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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#6 emperorthanos-  Moderator

@shirso: Also posted something on the PM don't know if you saw it

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higherpower

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T4V.

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#8  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

T4V

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shirso

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@shirso: Also posted something on the PM don't know if you saw it

Regarding which feats to use for Naruto? Sorry, I haven't caught up to Shippuden yet, you have to wait and see what Dh61 and Darth says.

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#11 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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Saint_of_Origin

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T4V

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#13 darthjhawk  Moderator

@shirso: @emperorthanos-:@deathhero61: Alright guys, as promised I have this up. Hope its a good initial read.

Ichigo Kurosaki: The Hybrid Transcendent

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"... If fate is a millstone, then we are the grist. There is nothing we can do. So I wish for strength. If I cannot protect them from the wheel, then give me a strong blade, and enough strength... to shatter fate."

Character Theme: Number One

As always I present my characters with their accompanying theme. Ichigo is no different.

IchigoThe Rundown
Real NameIchigo Kurosaki
Created ByTite Kubo
First AppearanceChapter 1: "The Death & the Strawberry"
Latest AppearanceChapter 686: Death & Strawberry
Powers & Abilities
  • Superhuman Physical Characteristics
  • Expert Swordsman
  • Immense Spirtiual Pressure
Current Status
  • Alive
  • Married to Orihime Inoue
  • Running the Kurosaki Clinic

The Substitute Shinigami I: An Introduction to Ichigo Kurosaki

Bio/Background:

Ichigo grew up in Karakura Town and was raised by his mother and father, Masaki and Isshin; and he was the older sibling to his twin sisters, Karin and Yuzu. For as long as Ichigo could remember he could see ghosts. One rainy day, Ichigo rushed to try and stop who who thought was girl falling into the flooding river, but this had just been a ghost. When he woke up, he found his mother dead on top of him. He would eventually spend hours alone walking along the area where his mother died. The child who smiled all the time was lost. He blamed himself for his mother's death and the suffering it caused his family. He then dedicated his life to protecting his sisters.

When Ichigo was 15 years old, a Soul Reaper named Rukia Kuchiki walked into his room through the wall. At first he refused to believe Rukia's story, but the family clinic was soon attacked by a monster called a Hollow. Yuzu and Karin were both injured, and Rukia told him that the monster was there for his soul. Ichigo was ready to sacrifice his life, but Rukia jumped in the way and was seriously injured. She made an offer to Ichigo to transfer some of her powers to him by piercing his heart with her sword. Ichigo inadvertently took all of Rukia's powers and destroyed the Hollow with his own zanpakutō.

Ichigo Kurosaki is now a human Substitute Soul Reaper for the Soul Society, who protects his friends and family above all else. Unlike most characters he really doesn't have an end goal. Ichigo will still protect everything he cares for even at the cost of his life and/or amazing powers. He was unsure of his powers and job but has come to embrace them as a part of himself and uses those powers for the greater good.

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Powers & Abilities:

  • Expert Hand-to-Hand Combatant: Physically, Ichigo's Human body is in top form. Ichigo has been trained in martial arts since he was a small child, both professionally and by his father. He has repeatedly shown great agility and coordination in his attacks. In addition to having powerful kicks and punches, Ichigo is proficient in counterattacks, takedowns, and body locks.
  • Enhanced Strength: Even while not in his Shinigami form, Ichigo is deceptively strong, smashing a man's head through a concrete road with a single kick, and later kicking Asguiaro Ebern from his bedroom into the street without injuring his leg from the man's Hierro.
  • Enhanced Speed & Reflexes: Even before learning Shunpo, Ichigo is a very fast and agile fighter. Ichigo possesses great reflexes, dodging a strike with no wasted effort and immediately counterattacking. He can strike quickly, without warning, and in rapid succession. His speed allows him to follow the movements of faster opponents to better analyze their movements, and block otherwise fatal strikes
  • Enhanced Durability: While only a teenage Human, Ichigo is a highly resilient young man, safely breaking free from a binding spell (albeit a low-level one) and withstanding an assault from a large Hollow.
  • Advanced Growth Rate: According to both Aizen and Urahara, Ichigo's most astounding ability is his growth rate; he grasps the basic control of advanced techniques in days where it would take several years for even the most gifted Shinigami.
  • Immense Spiritual Power: Ichigo has been noted on several occasions to have tremendously vast levels of spiritual energy, well beyond most other Shinigami. His spiritual power is noted to be heavy, which surprised Renji Abarai. Ichigo constantly gives off Reiatsu at the level of a captain and beyond.
  • Master Swordsman: In terms of fighting style while in his Shinigami form, Ichigo relies mainly on swordplay. Aside from his initial training with Urahara, he is essentially on a "learn as you go" training regimen; thusly, his skill has developed by fighting rather than formal instruction, becoming even more capable with every fight. His overall skill allows him to fight evenly against sword masters of Byakuya Kuchiki and Kenpachi Zaraki's caliber. While usually fighting right-handed, Ichigo appears to be ambidextrous, as he is proficient in wielding Zangetsu in his left hand. Since attaining the true form of Zangetsu, he has shown great skill at wielding both blades at once without any trouble.
  • Shunpo Expert: Though not particularly versed in its various techniques, Ichigo is proficient enough in the technique itself to keep up with and even surprise high-level Shinigami with his speed. Byakuya Kuchiki, one of the most proficient users of Shunpo in Soul Society, complimented Ichigo's growing mastery of the technique.

The Substitute Shinigami II: General Showings of the Substitute

So for this section of my post I'll show off a few feats of Ichigo's that I find very impressive and a good baseline for how powerful he is.

Feat One: Ichigo vs Aizen

So we all knew this was coming sooner or later. I might as well start off with Dangai Ichigo. These feats mainly come from Chapter 417-419:

Chapter 418: "Deicide 20"

So I figured we'd start off with one of Ichigo's most famous/infamous showings vs Monster Aizen. Breaking it down, we can see in scans 1-2 that Ichigo is able to easily react and combat Aizen's teleportation ability. While it may not be as fast as say Minato's FTG teleportation, its still pretty impressive that Ichigo was fast enough to react to Aizen using this ability, especially considering Aizen could surprise Gin Ichimaru with this abilities speed. (Chapter 415). Now moving on to scans 3-5. We see that the impact of Ichigo's sword is powerful enough to create shockwaves that can quite easily destroy small mountains. Ichigo is also able to overpower a full power Hado #90, Black Coffin. While it is stated to be a torrent of gravity that can distort space-time, its a bit unquantifiable just how much. Still considering that a much weaker Aizen could use the ability at only a 3rd of its power to oneshot Sajin Komamura,(Chapter 176). tells me that this is still quite an impressive showing of Ichigo's power.

Feat Two: Ichigo vs Candice Catnipp

Chapter 583: "The Headless Star 2"

One of Ichigo's notable & concrete speed feats during the TYBW arc. When fighting The Sternritter Candice who uses lightning with her attacks & to amplify her speed, we see Ichigo is more than capable of casually fighting her. Even casually timing her lightning and countering it with Getsuga Jujisho. What makes it a little more impressive, is that Candice was fully capable of outreacting & blitzing a Post-Gremmy fight Kenpachi. It should also be noted that Ichigo's Getsugas can quite easily overpower her abilities which contain 5 gigajoules of energy and even tear Candice's arm off in her Vollständig state.

Feat Three: Ichigo vs The Sternritter:

Chapter 585

Here we see Ichigo engage in an 1v8 with all of the remaining Sternritter. It should be noted that Ichigo isn't really trying to fight back here, as he is focused on getting to Yhwach. But he tanks being plowed through multiple city blocks by Meninas Mcallon, (who can casually lift city blocks herself, and incapacitate Post-Gremmy Kenpachi with a casual punch), then dodge a blitz from Nanana Nahkhanjoop and finally also bullet times from having gun directly on his head and counter attacks against Robert Accutrone (who could fight evenly with Shikai Shunsui Kyoraku.) A solid showing of his combat stats in my opinion.

The Substitute Shinigami III: Forms, Techniques, & Abilities

So this section will cover, the various forms & techniques Ichigo has shown throughout the series thus far.

Forms:

From Left to Right
  • SS Arc Ichigo
  • Hollow Mask Ichigo
  • Vasto Lorde Ichigo
  • Dangai Ichigo
  • Fullbring Bankai Ichigo
  • TS/TB/FH Ichigo

Getsuga Tensho:

Chapter 461: "Come Around Our Turn"

At the instant of the slash, Zangetsu, absorbing Ichigo's spiritual energy, releases highly condensed spiritual energy at the tip of the blade, which, magnifying the slash attack, flies forward. This slash takes the form of a crescent moon or the shape of a wave. Ichigo uses this ability without knowing its name several times, but masters the technique later on during his Bankai training. As stated by Zangetsu, knowing the name of an attack heightens its power compared to its strength when the wielder does not know its name. The Getsuga Tenshō is a powerful technique with great force, capable of causing large-scale damage and destruction. Ichigo has used this technique in several different manners, such as striking the ground, creating an omnidirectional blast which knocks away incoming attacks, or slashing at the ground, upturning it and crushing everything in its path.

Chapter 583: "The Headless Star 2"

After Ichigo regains his Shinigami powers for the second time, his Getsuga Tenshō is noticeably larger and stronger than it was before he lost his powers. A single strike from it cleanly cut off the top portion of Tsukishima's mansion and dispersed an entire rainstorm.After gaining his true Zanpakutō, Ichigo can fire a Getsuga Tenshō by simply pointing his smaller sword at the enemy and making a small slash with it. He can also fire a Getsuga Tenshō with his larger sword; this version is completely black, and is powerful enough to blast a large hole in the Soul King Palace and knock someone as powerful as Yhwach several meters back.

Getsuga Jujisho:

Chapter 583-584

By firing a Getsuga Tenshō with each blade of his true Shikai, Ichigo can fuse them into a large, cross-shaped blast of energy. It is powerful enough to disperse Candice Catnipp's Electrocution technique and completely destroy her left arm on contact.

Hollowfication Cero:

Chapter 350-351

The practitioner fires a powerful blast of concentrated spiritual energy at the target. While in most cases it is fired from the mouth, some Arrancar and Visored can fire Cero from their hands, fingers, and other parts of their bodies. This often requires the user to take on a specific pose. Ichigo in Vasto Lorde form is able to discharge a Cero with enough destructive force to offset Ulquiorra's Cero Oscuras. And even oneshot him later.

Getsuga/Gran Rey Cero:

Chapters 676-677

By using the longer sword of Zangetsu as a substitute second horn and with his blood as a catalyst, Ichigo can fire a Gran Rey Cero; moreover, he can combine it with a Getsuga Tenshō to create a massive slashing attack powerful enough to wound a Soul King-empowered Yhwach; though the latter quickly brushed it off, he noted that it was nonetheless a potent technique and proof that he had to take Ichigo seriously or he could become greatly injured.

Blut Vene:

Chapter 513: "The Dark Moon Stroke"

One of two Blut abilities, Blut Vene is the defensive Blut. Ichigo's imprisonment by Quilge Opie transferred some of Quilge's Reiatsu to Ichigo, which awakened the memories within his Reiatsu left by his mother, who was a Quincy. This has given him access to the defensive Blut. He used it to tank & survive an attack from Yhwach's sword, which only left a small cut. It should be noted that Yhwach thought this would have killed him or at least KO'ed him and a (casual swing can bifurcate Yamamoto) This power can also be used to aid Ichigo against critical wounds that have already been inflicted, able to stop the severe loss of blood that would be caused from said wound

Mugetsu:

Chapter 420: "Deicide 22"

Generating a blade of deep black spiritual energy in his hand, Ichigo swings it at the target. Doing so causes a massive veil of black spiritual energy to erupt upwards and approach the target, darkening the sky and heavily damaging anything caught within the blast. The energy continues to rise, dissipating into the sky

Current Thoughts & Closing: The Substitute Shinigami Joins the Fight

So with this post I just went for an intro to Ichigo and some of what he can do. What I want to get across with this post is a few things:

  • Ichigo, while not being the most powerful certainly has the means and capabilities to keep up alright in this fight.
  • Ichigo's abilities & techniques, while straightforward present a unique challenge that Naruto will have a hard time getting around.
  • Ichigo has incredible resolve, stamina & willpower that will enable to stay in the fight for the long run and keep the pressue up on Naruto.

So while I showed what Ichigo is capable of in this post, I'll go more in depth next post. I look forward to what everyone's going to open up with. I know Ichigo may have the least concrete showings, I hope I have given a good idea of his capabilities. With that I'll leave the rest to you all Good Luck!


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wow T4V

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shirso

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@deathhero61, @darthjhawk : Shall I go next? Two swordsman back to back might get monotonous for the readers lol.

Crisp post Darth btw.

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#16 darthjhawk  Moderator

@shirso: Thank you sir, & yep that sounds good.

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Great, am a bit cranky and out of practice, but will try to get this up in the next few days.

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#18  Edited By DeathHero61

@shirso: glad you offered, I would have taken awhile, and I need to completely reformat how I make my Meliodas CAV posts. Its been awhile.

Edit: I might just go with the same format and heavily edit it.

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#19 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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#21 darthjhawk  Moderator

@emperorthanos-: Thank you sir.

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The Fifth Emperor
The Fifth Emperor

Bio

The main protagonist of the One Piece manga series, Monkey D Luffy is the captain of the Strawhat Pirates, and arguably their most powerful member. His dream is to find the One Piece and become King of the Pirates. During his adventures, Luffy has clashed with plenty of powerful adversaries, including Marines, other Pirates, Warlords and Bounty hunters.

As a result of eating the Gomu Gomu Devil fruit as a child, Luffy's body attained the properties of rubber, which he has since used in pretty creative ways, the latest of which is Gear 4.

Unlike his teammates, Luffy isn't a swordsman but a purely hand to hand, mostly close quarters brawler. I guess this will add a nice touch of versatility to the team's offense.

As you can guess, Luffy's physicals are quite monstrous, especially after the latest chapter, he is on a whole different level in the verse, but those will be discussed in due course. For now I will just provide a brief rundown of Luffy's stats, to give an idea of what you are dealing with here.

Durability and Endurance

As a result of having a rubber like body, Luffy is outrageously immune to insane amounts of blunt force. Unless coated with Armament haki (which of course Naruto lacks), its nearly outright impossible to put the guy down with blunt force.

Let's see some feats...

Two examples, one pre and one post skip.

Pre skip Luffy tanks several vicious attacks from Shadow's Asgard Moria, who was strong enough to crack the island sized Thriller Bark in half with a punch.

Barely notices Hajrudin's full power punch. Hajrudin is strong enough to punch a guy weighing 10,000 tons flying miles into the air, while having all the bones in his body broken.

As for cutting and piercing attacks, well here's where the G4 amp comes in handy. In this form, a large chunk of Luffy's body is covered in Armament haki, in addition to which he blows massive amounts of air into his muscles to inflate them. The end result is that his cutting/piercing resistance rises considerably, to the extent that he can completely no sell attacks that could seriously hurt him before.

Also worth noting is that in spite of the CoA coating, Luffy's body still retains its rubbery nature, meaning not an ounce of blnt durability is sacrificed.

For example, Doflamingo's CoA enhanced kick does absolutely nothing to him. The shockwave from a casual kick of Doffy sliced through 3 towers like wet tissue paper.

Speed and Agility

Luffy is very fast, not only does he have great reactions, but his general fighting style is also fairly agile and evasive. Current base Luffy is easily deep into the massively hypersonic tier, Gear 4 gives another monstrous boost, to the point that it wouldn't be wrong to say that Luffy's Gear 4 form has probably one of the highest raw speeds in the entire verse.

Let's look at the progression of Luffy's speed throughout the series.

His best showing of speed in the East Blue is definitely tagging Kuro in speed mode (when Kuro goes FTE). At this stage Luffy can't really perceive him, but has sufficient movement speed and instincts to grab and slam him mid attack.

At Jaya (pre Skypiea), base, pre skip, pre gears Luffy, was already fast enough to casually tag Bellamy, a guy who can hop around like a spring and moved so fast that he was massively FTE over a large, nearly city block sized area, for extended periods of time. Unlike Kuro (an East Blue villain) who couldn't fully control his speed, and who East Blue Luffy could barely react to, not only is Bellamy a total pro with his fruit, but at this point Luffy didn't struggle to perceive or handle this level of speed at all.

And yeah, did I mention that Luffy had already taken hits from Bellamy before he faceplanted that guy like a boss?

Even at this very early stage, Luffy is pushing hypersonic.

Next, in Skypiea, we have Luffy outright kicking away a bolt of lightning from Enel.

No Caption Provided

So is Luffy a lightning timer by Skypiea? Probably not, because that bolt did come from a fair distance, and he fails to react to lightning other times in the arc. But taken in context with later feats, its clear that he is fast approaching lightning timing.

Then comes Enies Lobby, and Luffy's first major boost, Gear 2. This form exponentially raises his speed and strength, to the point that he can completely dominate opponents who were previously a tough or at least equal match for base Luffy.

The best example of this is the Blueno fight. Gear 2 is blatantly FTE to Blueno.

To appreciate the boost, keep in mind that when Luffy fought him in Water 7, Blueno was completely FTE to Luffy.

Now keep in mind that Skypiea Luffy was already approaching lightning timing levels, so with Gear 2, its reasonable to peg Enies Lobby Luffy as an official lightning timer.

This is further supported by the fact of course, that Kalifa, the weakest of the CP9, could react to Nami's natural lightning.

Moving forward a bit, let's come to his fight against Boa Hancock's sisters on Amazon Lily. These two have Observation Haki, aka precognition, and could react to and even outspeed Luffy fine in base form (base form Luffy evenly matched Blueno and the astronomically more powerful human Rob Lucci as far back as Enies Lobby). But the moment Luffy goes Gear 2, not only can the sisters not react to his attacks, even with precog, but the speed gap becomes so enormous that Luffy is able to tie their tails together without them noticing !

Last pre skip feat, to put to rest any doubts about how fast Luffy is even pre skip, he dodges some pretty close range attacks from Mihawk, the World's Greatest Swordsman, and hyped to be Yonko level.

No Caption Provided

Of course you might say here that Mihawk was holding back, but there's a panel just before this where Mihawk specifically says that he won;t hold back against Luffy just because he is Shanks' protege (remember that for the Shichibukai and WG, Luffy was explicitly one of the highest value targets due to his association with Dragon).

Also, Mihawk is a guy who can cut mountain sized icebergs miles away with just a casual swing.

Luffy dodged multiple slashes from this guy at close range. And its not as if Mihawk had completely thrown the fight, you can see he is still displaying some intricate swordplay there.

So as you can see, even pre skip Luffy's speed (at least with Gear 2) is well above lightning timing by Marineford.

One of the most prominent movement speed feats post skip is when he dodges Caesar's Gastanet and appears behind Caesar without the former noticing. This when the explosives were literally sticking to his body.

Now for 1 feat of Gear 4, it moved so fast that not even someone like Doflamingo could track its movements across the length of a city block, and failed to stop it from appearing right beside him and blitzing.

To understand why this is impressive, you have to remember that Doffy is one of the fastest characters in the verse, with feats like slicing a point blank meteorite, or being more or less as fast as Gear 2 Luffy. Consider that Doffy also most certainly has CoO precog, and this becomes an insane speed feat for Gear 4. I need to see some serious reaction feats from Naruto to prove he won't be getting blitzed throughout, especially since as he is distracted by 2 others here.

And yeah, with Gear 4, Luffy can fly.

Strength and Striking Power

Luffy is a lightning bruiser in the truest sense of the term. Not only is he extremely fast as the previous section proved, but he hits monstrously hard as well.

Luffy has an embarrassment of feats in this section. I will pick some of the best.

Alabasta saga Luffy punches Crocodile through several meters of solid bedrock and crumbles a city block in the process.

Keep in mind this was a pre skip, pre gears Luffy who was heavily injured, bleeding, poisoned and exhausted at that point. Also his attack had to first overcome Crocodile's sand armor, making this feat even more impressive.

So Luffy is already city block lvl, even at this early stage.

The first real feat post skip, is when the M3 casually oneshot Pacifistas, when previously it took the entire crew to barely put one down.

Pacifistas are basically World Government owned murder bots, and are just insanely durable among other things. Pre skip, not even the M3's combined most powerful moves + Robin's neck snap + Franky's powerful artillery + Usopp's explosives + Nami's weather attacks + Chopper's physical strikes (which is no pushover btw) could make so much as a dent in a Pacifista. Given just the M3's feats pre skip (apart from Luffy, things like Zoro and Sanji deflecting Oars' attacks for instance), that puts a Pacifista's durability well above city lvl.

What happened when the M3 faced an improved model of the Pacifistas post skip? See for yourself...

Luffy one shots a Pacifista with his most basic move.

A few chapters later, Luffy's CoA enhanced Elephant Gun knocks out a humongous Kraken, 10,000 metres under sea level, and with Luffy's arm exposed to the sea (which as you know, weakens DF users massively).

Even throwing a punch at that sea level would take insane strength, let alone one with enough power to one shot a monster that dwarfed the Sunny.

That isn't all though, in the very next arc, Fishman Island, we see Luffy sending Hody flying with a single kick, bringing down a lot of a mountainous wall in the process.

No Caption Provided

It is much better represented in the anime.

Luffy kicks Hody

In the same arc, he tops this feat with a second, even more impressive one.

When Fishman Island seems in danger of getting crushed by the falling Noah (which is a gigantic ship, nearly the size of the island itself), Luffy tries to destroy it before it crashes. He doesn't quite succeed, but does manage to do a crapton of damage, using one of his more powerful moves, Elephant Gatling.

And the Noah is huge. Just look at its size compared to Fishman Island.

No Caption Provided

Seeing the Noah's size, and how much damage Luffy did in just a few panels, this is a solid mountain lvl + feat.

I hope you can appreciate how much of a beast Luffy already is, even without Gear 4.

With Gear 4, raw strength wise, he is able to easily break out of Doffy's strings.

No Caption Provided

Doffy's strings are insanely durable, they can slice through meteorites like tissue paper, and restrain extremely powerful individuals like Diamond Jozu (who was strong enough to rip out and throw a mountain sized iceberg an appreciable distance).

And his striking power is enough to easily overpower Doffy's guard, grievously injure him and send him flying the length of a city, toppling a number of buildings in the process.

For reference, Doffy is a massive tank, not even Sanji's Diable Jambe, or Luffy's Gear 2 Jet Gatling, or an even more powerful attack, his Red Hawk, could quite ragdoll Doffy like this.

The first two attacks he straight up no sold, while Red Hawk took him by surprise. In comparison, a single G4 Kong Gun broke through a fully prepared Doffy's Armament haki enhanced guard and sent him flying that huge distance.

And I haven't got to Gear 4's best striking feats yet. You better show some serious blunt durability feats for Naruto.

Coming up

Depending on how the debate proceeds, in my next post I will be discussing:

  • Luffy's various techniques in Gear 4, many of which will be a major headache for Naruto.
  • More on his Observation haki or precognition.
  • The role Luffy fulfills in the fight and how he complements his teammates.

Initial Thoughts

I am not very familiar with this form of Naruto, but I'm interested to see:

  • How Naruto plans to harm G4 Luffy. Blunt force is useless for one, and G4 makes Luffy extremely resistant to cutting/piercing as well.
  • Whether he can keep up with or even perceive G4, especially in close quarters.
  • If he can tank the massive amounts of blunt force trauma that G4 will be doling out.

That's it from my side for now. Let's see how this goes :)

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Very interesting indeed. @emperorthanos-, you're using BSM Naruto without The Last feats, if I understand this correctly? T4V regardless, only good debaters are in this CaV.

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#25 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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#26  Edited By HitTheAssasin
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#27 darthjhawk  Moderator
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#29 emperorthanos-  Moderator

Damn I'm actually starting to think BSM Naruto may not be enough after all.

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DeathHero61

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#30  Edited By DeathHero61

@emperorthanos- said:

Damn I'm actually starting to think BSM Naruto may not be enough after all.

I heavily disagree. This entirely depends on how you use naruto. You have clones, summons, and various techniques as well. Plus you can honestly argue a speed advantage.

You guys wanna wing it and allow him to have So6p feats?

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T4V, this is looking great

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deactivated-5b7c40870d0af

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@deathhero61: That would be a very imbalanced matchup, hardly a fair one.

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T4v

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DeathHero61

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@deathhero61: That would be a very imbalanced matchup, hardly a fair one.

Naruto near the end of the series is a very complicated character.

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@deathhero61: I agree, jumping from casually island/small country level up to moon level usually creates some interesting disparity.

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@marx_mayhem: He's a Bleach fan... they don't understand feats. Although, I wouldn't exactly say Moon level though... More like Continent which is only a little bit smaller than moon anyhow.

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@b_r023: You're too focused on surface area, the moon has far more mass and volume than any continent, and Naruto has directly created one and launched it to orbit.

Plus that whole casually overpowering a moon level opponent and tanking his best attacks like nothing. He's moon level, it's not debatable.

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@marx_mayhem: By scaling, yes he is, especially when he only used about half of BSM because half of Kurama was fighting away the Goelm so, at full power i.e. S06P mode, he should be Moon level.

But by feats however...

Hopefully we will see Naruto truly cut loose and fight with the intent to kill since we have never truly seen him go all out. At least not in the way most God tiers from the verse do.

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@b_r023: What? His feats already put him at moon level, there's no need for scaling here.

With it, he's closer to outright moon busting or small planet level.

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@marx_mayhem: Not exactly, he didn't create CT himself. He had Sasuke to help. And he only overpowered a moon splitter... not a buster.

Interesting discussion and all but let's not derail the CAV, yea?

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@b_r023: Which is why I noted him as moon level several times, nothing more.

I said nothing about overpowering a moon buster.

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#45 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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#46 emperorthanos-  Moderator

@emperorthanos- said:

@hittheassasin: Yes BSM.

BTW I need your team on th PYP tourney.

Oh, ok. I'll work on it. When exactly do you need the team?

As soon as possible. If someone gives me the team before I'm going to give the spot to them. You can be a reserve when someone eventually drops if that happens.

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#47  Edited By DeathHero61

My post will be done by the end of the week.

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#48  Edited By DeathHero61

Heir To The Demon King, Meliodas

Sorry for making you guys wait so long, its mostly a copy and paste, with very slight edits. Considering I had a previous Cav relating to SDS vs Naruto, I will structure it exactly the same, and based off your replies I will scale up the feats I show off.

No Caption Provided

Bio(wall of text, feel free to skip)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiVc5BzOjrU

"This is a tale of ancient times. An era before the human and non-human worlds were forever divided..."

"Throughout it's history, Britannia has been plagued by countless battles. As for why they began, or how they might come to an end, nobody seems to know. But there is one who has an answer. He is the captain of the legendary order of knights, called the Seven Deadly Sins!"

In a world of fairy tales(no not the one with the dragon slaying main character) and legends, and myths alike, 3000 years ago a nasty war broke out between 5 different clans, Demons, Giants, Fairies, Goddesses and the Humans. A certain man was revealed to have incited the war, the man with all the answers, the man who was the strongest of all demons, and the strongest in all of Britannia. Meliodas. He became a traitor to the Demon Clan who were going around murdering people for the most part and trying to subjugate all of Britannia,and not only changed the tide of the war by leaving, but also turned every other clan including the goddess clan against the Demon Clan ultimately having them sealed for thousands of years. This was because of a forbidden love between him and the goddess Elizabeth, as punishment, Meliodas literally cannot die and every time he does he's immediately revived from purgatory, while the woman of his life constantly reincarnates, and is drawn to Meliodas automatically, one day she will regain her memories and when she does dies three days later. Meliodas repeated this cycle for thousands of years since the holy war. That tragic backstory aside, somewhere down the line he finds himself in the kingdom of Liones, where he mets founding member Merlin, and the king of Liones, and the latter had a vision and declared a prophecy, that sin would defeat commandment, implying that Meliodas' former comrades would be revived, he then became the leader of the sins. Each of these "sins" were dastardly criminals(not really) that each committed a "sin" that branded them a criminal, the sin of sloth due to negligence of his job which resulted in the supposed sin of greed, seeking the fountain of youth and murdering the guardian saint, and etc. etc. this group of ragtag misfits are the protectors of the world: a former thief/thug, the equivalent of a mad scientist who thirsts and hungers for knowledge and the unknown, a lazy fairy who neglected his job and somehow lost his memory, and has bigger identity issues than Jaden Smith, a ditzy giant woman(that's literally all that's notable about her) the equivalent of Red Hulk and Superman except with an axe and a love for poetry, and a sociopath doll. Meliodas is the leader, the Dragon's Sin of Wrath.

Mentioning some stuff about Power Levels before the debate.

Before i get into abilities and stats and the like, NNT is basically a more sophisticated and consistent DBZ, along with more detail in fights. Power Levels and Power Scaling is the easiest thing in the world in NNT, because you can automatically tell who's in what areas of stats and ability based off the fights and choreography of said fights. For example, Gloxina of the commandments although durable based off feats, without certain amps or abilities, his physical strength is just as pathetic as Kings and he's pretty fragile. All Fairies are like this, but their TK strength and magic power is pretty impressive. Meliodas naturally has balanced out stats in terms of magic and power, spirit varies from person to person, what the hell am i talking about you may ask? Check this out:

No Caption Provided

Strength: Physical Stats Speed and Strength, mostly strength, this most likely includes speed considering how well scaling is done, but some characters have low strength values but high magic values and end up having a good level of speed. But it wouldn't be wrong to say speed is a factor one way or another in these values.

Spirit: Will Power Self-explanatory.

Magic/Power: Special abilities and how potent they are. Here's where you cannot really scale or make resistance arguments due to the huge differences between the characters.

Say someone had a strength feat they performed with a level of 2000 or something, arguments could be made of someone with a higher level or a comparable level doing the same, and they wouldn't be too much speculation because it would be someone of a particular STRENGTH level. And the thing is, it's not inconsistent, i could sit here, and spend time showing you each power level of each commandment, sin, holy knight, then going in detail as why it makes sense a certain character has this power level and that power level, i couldn't do this with DBZ. For example, i can argue that Izarf, the Vampire King that Escanor stomped would beat sealed Meliodas by showing a good combination of what limited feats and street cred he has along with his power level stats such as magic and strength.

This might be important later for certain scaling.

Abilities

Expert Hand to Hand Combatant and Expert Swordsmen-Meliodas is well known for his immense skill in all forms of CQC. He has been fighting for several thousand years, always making precise blocks and counters when fighting against even the most skilled of fighters, even against his fellow sins who are all extremely skilled in their own areas of combat. Meliodas was stated to be unparalleled in swordsmanship and that he was on two different levels of fighting ability when he uses a sword as opposed to his fists. Meliodas' choreography is definitely a sight to behold. Especially against the Holy Knights, who were well trained combatants powerful enough to take down an army of a thousand or more on their own.

Meliodas at one point solo'd two holy knights along with a powerful mage who was the apprentice of Merlin.

Superhuman Strength and Speed- Meliodas' physical strength is the second highest out of all the sins. Escanor being the strongest.(technically by Meliodas' own accord) Meliodas despite his size packs an insane punch. And his speed is nothing to laugh at either.

While his power was sealed due to lack of control at the time, Meliodas was capable of slashing a small mountain in half with a twig.......this feat is insane, because Meliodas maintained no contact with the mountain in question, and slashed it in half with a shockwave. He swung the twig with enough force, in an angle and fashion that it would slash through, along with the speed being used in the feat in question, Meliodas swung the twig so fast that the mountain itself got slashed before the twig vaporized due to the force.

He cut it so cleanly that he could not only walk through it, but see all his friends including Diane who is huge. Despite what people may believe due to certain situations in the series, Meliodas holds back a lot. His power is insane, and even when sealed, he is way beyond his other comrades in arms. Aside from Escanor who is leagues above him, Meliodas if willing could have stomped and easily killed every single person he went up against throughout the series, even Ban who was the most equal to Meliodas, when he was sealed. He's just that effective in combat. And even that feat above isn't his full power while sealed, its still him holding back.

Meliodas manages to effortlessly cross a room, blitz Griamore, another Holy Knight, dodging everything he has to offer, smacking him around and KOing him(specifically going for precise and quiet blows to KO him quickly and as quietly as possible, stopping him from drawing his sword to manage damage control and to prevent him from making too much noise, neck chopping him twice in turn knocking him out) all without making a sound, before a cup could fall to the ground and Elizabeth could raise her head to see what was going on(Meliodas was trying to be stealthy in order to sneak out Elizabeth.) BTW in regards to Griamore, (he stated that his wall ability can tank meteors, he must have tested this himself obviously, that means that he had to have reacted to a meteor to know that his own shields can protect him from such impacts so that says a crap ton about Meliodas considering how hard he speed blitzed him)

Very early on in the series, Meliodas timed lightning summoned from a cloud spawned by Gilthunder.

Later even while going all out he could not harm Galand The Truth. His blows even with demon amplifying transformations, could not harm Galan whatsoever.

Meliodas gained another significant amp and the difference between their levels of ability was clear as day.

After getting his power back, beats Galan in about 5 seconds. Overpowering him, easily dodging his blows and even pins him at one point of the battle. Barehanded, although Galan was surviving, as soon as Mel took out his sword Galan lost all his strength.

Meliodas states that he was holding back.

This is incredibly impressive, considering Galan was one of the bricks of the Ten Commandments, who had feats such as these:

Cutting mountainous landscapes and creating huge fissures as a result.
Cutting mountainous landscapes and creating huge fissures as a result.

Plays golf with 30 to 100 ton boulders

And Galan while weakened, wiped out an entire city

And with his power and strength intact did a similar feat with less effort just so he can get some "space"

and Galan is the weakest brick of the commandments(Dolor, Zeldris, Estarossa are all stronger)

Durability and Endurance- It's extremely hard to kill Meliodas. It would take a lot to actually take him down, even while in a weakened state. Meliodas during his fight with Hendricksen and Gilthunder tanked amped lightning bolts from him.

The shockwave of the blast alone was felt from several city blocks away. Gil's lightning is above most of Naruto's standard attacks in terms of raw power IMO his rasenshuriken being a close second due to cutting on a somewhat cellular level.

Even after that he still survived the combined attack from Vivian the mage, and was still capable of fighting.

He also took point blank explosions from geera, earlier on in the series, this was right after his fight at the festival that he had with Ban and Diane respectively.

Meliodas tanks gloxina attack which might as well be a nuke considering the spread and the destructive capacity.(I want to make note that the shockwave of the blast alone was destroying some hills or mountains nearby in the corner of the third scan)

Magic Abilities

Full Counter- Full Counter is an ability that is used to reflect all types of magical attacks. It's basic in nature. When Mel reflects an attack, its doubled in power and force.

Full counters large meteor like explosions.

Meliodas counters several different attacks all aimed directly towards him, vines, fire, energy blasts, bullets, etc. And managed to reflect all of it, in one sweep.

Full counter cannot just counter non-physical attacks it can counter attacks that are charged with energy as they release.(Look at the scan closely. Everytime she is prepared to use an explosion blast which she channels through her sword, meliodas manages to counter in time so the explosion instead hits her and not him. It's either that or Meliodas is simply reacting to the explosion and then redirecting it as it expands which would be even more impressive.)

Counter Vanish- Sub ability of Full Counter. It's basically Imagine Breaker except different. Negates attacks.

When he actives his demonic powers he has a decent pool of abilities he could use.

He can create dark constructs to defend himself from powerful blows,constructs around his hands to increase his range, his striking strength and power, cane make blades or shields, and the plus side is that his power constantly rises when he starts to use his demon powers, the downside is the powers grow slightly more out of control the longer he uses it.(This is however no longer the case)

At his full power he can practically remain untouched while utilizing skillful swordplay and hand to hand along with his additional constructs.

Weapon: Sacred Treasure Lostvayne.

Lostvayne was a weapon that Meliodas reacquired during the beginning of the demon arc. It was one of the sacred treasures given to the sins. Lostvayne is rather versatile. All sacred treasures give a rather basic boost in ability.

Meliodas couldn't even touch an Albion, a weapon of war 3000 years ago. He could barely agitate it. But when he got his hands on his sacred treasure that was a different story all together.

One limitation of full counter was that it cannot block attacks from several angles, and it cannot block attacks it cannot reach. Lostvayne counteracted said limitation. Providing multiple clones to cover multiple angles so Mel could deflect attacks more efficiently.

Obviously creating clones diminished the power of the wielder. But at Meliodas current level of power,(which i haven't even got to yet) it wouldn't even matter if we go by power levels.....

For example Mel is at a low level like 3000-4000 when his power was sealed. Now he's at 60,000, split that up and that's higher than his normal power when he was sealed. Imagine dealing with 5 Meliodas.(At the very least 5 meliodas' on par with sealed meliodas) I'll go into detail later on why this is important.

What Meliodas Brings to The Team

Defense and Coverage is Meliodas' biggest role here. Naruto has a lot of techniques that can threaten the team as a whole, so Meliodas will be there to defend against large scale attacks. He can even use full counter against CQC attacks like Rasengan.

He can also use clones to assure he can back up teammates if they are a little far to reach. So this could possibly help defend against attacks as well. I'll refer back to these scans.

He has other tools, but this should be enough for now.

Initial Thoughts

Luffy provides unpredictability, and a level of survivability to most forms of damage along with ranged blunt force attacks. Ichigo provides mostly firepower and range(which is on par with meliodas, while also being superior in terms of range based off my knowledge) while Meliodas provides defense and support. It will be an insanely tough battle, but sooner or later, Naruto will go down despite the huge movepool he has. I'll go into more detail once you reveal your strategy and overall approach to this battle.

Come at me.

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@deathhero61: Cool post. I love how SDS inverts common shonen tropes by having the mc start out as already ridiculously powerful, yet not making the story boring as a result.