"Real power is forged from the desire smoldering in the heart. It fans into a flame and begins to burn with an intensity scarcely imagined to be possible."
Experience
Orochimaru was born as a orphan after his parents were killed. orochimaru does greatly despise death, despite his willingness to kill on the spot. but this doesn't matter, as a kid, orochimaru was trained by the legendary third hokage,of Hiruzen Sarutobi alongside Jiraiya and Tsunade. his talents, knowledge, and determination were considered by Hiruzen to be that of a prodigy seen only once in a generation.
to think the third hokage, the one who was renowned as the "god of shinobi" thought orochimaru as a kid had the potential to surpass him speaks volumes of his fighting prowess and his extreme experience. even while young and still inexperienced, he earned the rank of sannin with Jiraiya and tsundere.
the sannin are renowned ninjas from Konohagakure, hailed as three of the greatest shinobi of their time. so during his time, orochimaru, while still weaker then his prime, was hailed as one of the greatest during his time. even this wasn't enough to hold down orochimaru's great power, as not long after, he would soon join the akatsuki.
joining the akatsuki by itself is already a remarkable feat for his experience, as the akatsuki only hire the strongest from village to village, and orochimaru being a sannin while also being a akatsuki member speaks to his high amount of power and experience. Ever since the Second Shinobi World War, Orochimaru became fascinated with the idea of learning all jutsu around the world. this would lead him to want to accomplish this goal, which indefinally lead to him beginning illegal experiments that involved experimenting with the corpses of deceased people, as a mean of cheating death.
but even so, orochimaru's experience of learning from the third hokage, becoming a sannin and becoming a akatsuki member means orochimaru greatly outstats kisame in terms of real world and fighting experience.
strength
i will say this right now, kisame out stats orochimaru in terms of strength, as kisame is able to hold his own against the likes of six gate guy(but gets destroyed by seventh gate but eh)
but this doesn't necessarily means orochimaru already lost, as he got plenty of strength to handle kisame for some time. we know that orochimaru managed to assassinate the fourth kazekage, gaara's dad, pretty easily. along with a couple of kazekages gaurds.
we already know from the kazekage, that he was able to constantly stalemate the one tailed beast without much effort during his time while he was alive.
even while edo(which is weaker then when they are alive might i add), the kazekage was to pretty diffult with a war arc gaara.
this is insane to know cause of what we know, orochimaru killed him without much effort. this puts orochimaru easily at kage levels of power. but even though, his match up with the third hokage should show his amazing fighting prowess. during his fight, just by flexing his charka a little bit, orochi was able to cause the ground below him to break open and crack.
and this is orochimaru just flexing(even though it isn't as impressive). some other feats of him is going hand to hand with sarutobi.
theses are highly impressive, as sarutobi was able to completely catch hashirama's arm, while sarutobi was under his bringer of darkness jutsu. this means orochimaru is able to at least be comparable in H2H speed with hashirama in a imperfect edo state.
allso, the part of the scan where orochimaru is blocking the staff is incredibly impressive, as this staff was strong enough to push the kyubi out of village boundaries with ease, and orochimaru blocked it casually with his blade.
we all know the nine tails is a being of incredible power, a being in which can level a mountain with a single tail, and sarutobi was able to send it flying with a single staff. and for orochimaru to be able to resist the hit of the hokage should put him easily around mountain level by scaling. but lets get into some more feats of his strength. just by swinging his tongue, hes able to cause a massive crater from swinging jiraiya. and might i add, this is him severely handicapped from the reaper death seal that took away his ability to morph jutsus.
but lets get into some good stuff, like him being able to push back a KCM4 cloak naruto while handicapped, which not even jiraiya could handle a cloaked three tails.
hes even able to keep KCM4 naruto from tagging him by using his snakes to stop the strike from the raging beast.
this is immensely impressive, as just by flexing his charka, this version of naruto was able to do this with ease from his part.
i feel like this is enough to put orochimaru around mountain+ by scaling and feats. his pure physical prowess wont win him this match though, but his willingness to stay into the fight and able to fight on par with a opponent such as a KCM4 naruto would allow him to at least trade and keep up with kisame. but to furthermore prove how strong he is, he was able to casually hold back the god tree branch with little difficulty
this should show that orochimaru is capable of competing with kisame for some time
SPEED
i feel comfortable enough to say orochimaru is at least comparable, likely higher then kisame for a couple of reasons. orochimaru is no slouch when it comes to speed, which im gonna show im a moment. so lets start with some small ones, like orochimaru appearing as a blur when he was evading kunais thrown by a two tomoe sharingan sasuke.
we know this sasuke can hang around a haku which can move almost instantaneous in his/her/his ice mirrors, but dodging a folly of shuriken by a genin doesn't seem impressive does it. well, how about coping the movement of the third hokage?
the hokage here is insane, even as edo, who is able to keep up with a edo madara and obito. but lets get into some more juicy things then just hokages. even while having his arms sealed by the third hokage, orochimaru was able to out maneuver jiraiya and tag him on the throat while he had his underworld spikes on.
this is a good feat, cause even prime jiraiya is at least comparable to the third, and orochimaru was able to keep up with him, putting him around Massively Hypersonic or Massively Hypersonic+, depending on how you scale jiraiya to pain. but even so, orochimaru was able to dodge the charka arm of KCM3 naruto, rather easily while nerfed by his arms.
we all know naruto is a massive monster in speed, even as a kid, he was able to speed blitz a sasuke who could out speed gaara's sand, which could react to explosions. which explosions go around 26,400 feet per second (8,050 meters per second), and sasuke surpassed that rather easily. and we have sasuke, completely overwelmed by the pure speed of naruto.
naruto blitzed sasuke to high heavens. This is impressive because the sharingan lets sasuke perceive things that are even too fast for him such as rock lee, to a degree greater than that of a regular human, but he couldn't even see naruto moving. even then, in a much much much higher form of KCM for naruto, orochimaru was able to react to him and at least be on par with him while handicapped
this should put orochimaru around Sub-Relativistic or sub rel+ in speed, and and Relativistic in reaction time. something im sure kisame cant keep up with. but lets say he can, it wont matter cause orochimarus reaction and combat speed greatly outstats kisame anyway, leaving kisame with his heavy hitting natured attacks useless against this man.
but now, lets get into some more juicy things. mmhhhh juicy.
Endurance/ durability
this is where things are quite clear. orochimaru greatly beats kisame in durability and endurance by a land slide. his weakest ones include stabbing himself in the hand, cause he was simply bored.
not only does this show orochimarus lack of care to take damage, but it mostly goes to his plans. orochimaru is a unfeeling monster and hes able to soak up damage like the sponge underwater. hell, he even took a fireball jutsu to the face without flinching, and sasukes fireball jutsu is potent enough to melt though rock.
hes able to tank a beating from tsundere a multitude of times, even when she has the 100 healings open, which boosts her physical strength by tens of times.
but theses are low tier feats, so let get into the meat and potatoes(honestly, i might be hungry writing this lol)
here is orochimaru tanking strikes that sent him across a giant landscape of the forest from a single strike from KCM3 naruto, which blew off parts of his face, but he was relatively unharmed by the attack.
hell, even the giant flexing of charka naruto done in KCM4 sent out a large city to mountain level explosion, and orochimaru was able to escape it and only have a small price to pay. his arm. which he regrew momentarily later.
he can near instantly pull himself back together with his snakes, this will happen if kisame somehow manages to slice orochimaru apart.
some others of orochimarus include his entire body being mangled by KCM4 naruto, and coming back like it didn't bother him.
this is impressive, cause the craters you see is from KCM4 narutos bijuu bomb, which orochimaru got the bad end of by his gates, which was not enough to block his bijuu bomb. but either less, he survived it. the bijuu bomb was this big. this was enough to vape the surrounding area around them.
when rocks melt (as in a volcano) they become magma (underground) and only lava when it reaches the surface. To vaporize rock you would need to raise the heat way higher than what can occur naturally in a volcano. The temperature of lava when it is first ejected from a volcanic vent can vary between 700 and 1,200 degrees C (1,300 to 2,200 F). heat of vaporization of water = 2257 J/g = 540 calories/gram. Density of water or skin (70% water) = 1 gram/cubic centimetre. it takes serious energy to break these oxygen bonds. In fact, it takes 460 kilojoules of energy to break just one mole of oxygen-hydrogen bonds — around the same energy that a 2,000-pound car going 70 miles per hour on the highway has in potential. And that's just 18 grams of water! So as you can see, it would take a gargantuan amount of energy to separate all the atoms in even a small glass of water — especially if that glass of water is your analog for a person. The human body is a bit more complicated than a glass of water, but it still vaporizes like one. And thanks to our spies spread across scientific organizations, we now have the energy required to turn a human into an atomic soup, to break all the atomic bonds in a body. According to the captured study, it takes around three gigajoules of death-ray to entirely vaporize a person — enough to completely melt 5,000 pounds of steel or simulate a lightning bolt."
this means orochimaru was hit by a (incomplete) bijuu bomb, and came out rather unharmed, which is immensely impressive, and imo, far outpaces anything kisame has been dished.
Jutsus
orochimaru is a monster when it comes to jutsu, having lived a long life, he acquired several jutsus to be able to deal with kisames amazing arsenal.
one of them is the sinking jutsu, which allows him to sink into the ground to escape any dangerous situation he might be in.
And one of the most dangerous abilities orochimaru has is too use Genjutsu. orochimaru is severely good at using genjutsu, enough so, that he can trick a two tomoe sasuke and make kakashi see his death while using a genjutsu.
i believe this alone could snag orochimaru the win by genjutsuing him and taking his sweet time to go over to him and think of plenty of ways to kill him, because kisame hasn't shown any genjutsu resistance from what i know. if im missing one, please enlighten me.
but other then genjutsu, he allso knows wind style, a wind style powerful enough to uproot trees.
some fire style jutsus
we all know wind is the natural enemy to water in naruto, but even so, orochimaru has access to the Shadow clone jutsu, which can give him enough time to plan a strategy to defeat the monster.
his shadow clone is so close to the original to sight, that not even a special jounin could tell the difference between the two. but one of his most recognizable jutsus is his body manipulation jutsu, which allows him to change and morph his body into snake like properties.
he can allso use his tongue as a weapon if he needs too. his tongue is potent enough to destroy a zero cloak naruto and body tsundere.
orochimaru is a absolute genius when it comes to hiding, as he can passively camouflage himself when he feels the need too.
but thats not all of his snake aspects, he can summons not only snakes from his mouth, but himself and countless weapons, which the snakes themselves can weild.
this can give orochimaru the advantage in close, or long range.
but his most dangerous aspect if his summons, which can tower of konoha's tallest buildings and an smash them just as easily.
but theses aren't even his biggest summons. his biggest, and most problematic summon is the great snake manda!
Manda is strong enough to restrain Katsyu while simultaneously blocking Gambata's sword with it's mouth, and completely overwelming gamabata not long after.
and gamabata is so powerful, he is able of stopping the nine tails from rampaging for a moment
but even so, if kisame some how(which i doubt) beats all his jutsus and summons, orochimaru will be resort to his white snake form.
with this form, orochimaru can simply wait for kisame to slash him, then orochimaru will simply absorb him.
with this, i see no way kisame will get pass orochimarus large amount of jutsus and vetatilites
Conclusion
orochimaru is faster then kisame, and can possibly blitz
orochimaru has more experience and durability then kisame, which he can tank anything he throws at him.
orochimaru can genjutsu kisame and absorb him.
orochimaru has a overwhelming arsenal of jutsus that can all trick and take kisame down.
"I get stronger in direct proportion to how strong my opponent is. I do not tire, and cannot be defeated."
Brief Bio & Reputation
Kisame was a ninja from the Hidden village of Kirigakure and was one of the most if not the most gifted shinobi of the village. Born as one of the members of the Hoshigaki clan [ clan likely known for having all his members being human-sharks] he was one of the strongest shinobi to ever being born in Kiri. Before making his name as one of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist and then as an member of the most feared criminal organisation in the ninja world: Akatsuki ,he was already trusted with the mosts dangerous missions
Kisame was in charge of protecting the Cypher Division [which was basicaly the most important group in Kiri because they carry all the importants secrets about the village ] and as the Misukage controled by Obito himself said in the scan, Kisame did this protection mission and other highly dangerous stuffs many times and he always survived, this is a great feat by itself.
In other words, even before becoming one of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen he was already respected by the most importants people in the village for his strenght, and was already highly respected by Obito Uchiha himself.
If we are looking for the facts he was so respected for his strenght and mentality by Obito that he was asked to join the Akatsuki by Obito himself which Obito only did with Itachi Uchiha and only with him as a matter of facts Obito wanted him so much that he revelated his face and the Moon Eye plan to Kisame
When Kisame joined the Akatsuki he was partened with Itachi of the sharingan and then the fame of the Tailed Beast without a Tail grown even highter as he was completing various dangerous missions alongside Itachi.
Feats and counters
Now the real battle begins. Ready @rikuyamaha ? Let's do it ! I am going to prove that not only Kisame is a bad matchup for Orochimaru but I will also prove Kisame can overwhelm Orochimaru before Orochimaru use effectively his jutsu and attacks arsenal
Kisame Battle Theme
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Experience
As I showed above even before becoming one of the legendary swordsmen of the mist Kisame was already trusted for the most dangerous missions , he fought in numerous fights and battles even before joining the swordmens and as far as we know he always came back unscratched. As a matter of fact when the group was ambushed by Ibiki division Kisame killed every ninja who attacked him and after killing his fellow members he managed to escape despite being alone and surrounded by an elite group.
Then he joined the Seven Ninja Swordsmen of The Mist which is the group who lead Kiri army on frontlines and fight in the most dangerous missions by himself. So Kisame acquired plenty of battle experience when he was with the group.
When he joined the Akatsuki after becoming an S-rank criminal he fought in numerous fights alongside Itachi, and when Orochimaru deserted the group, Kisame was still gaining experience while Orochimaru was not fighting anymore. As a matter of fact Orochimaru stayed years without fighting anyone after he deserted the Akatsuki. Furthermore Kisame fought against strong Jinchurikis with various and versatile fighting style, so even if it's true that Orochimaru have some more experience it's not THAT much.
the sannin are renowned ninjas from Konohagakure, hailed as three of the greatest shinobi of their time. so during his time, orochimaru, while still weaker then his prime, was hailed as one of the greatest during his time.
Feats>Reputation. We know for a fact that Itachi who was still a kid when he beat him>Orochimaru. And Itachi at that time was far from having Orocimaru reputation even with the slaughter of his clan. As a matters of fact even Kisame stated that the sannin reputation where beyond the Swordsmen and the Uchiha.
joining the akatsuki by itself is already a remarkable feat for his experience, as the akatsuki only hire the strongest from village to village
I can say the same about Kisame.
but even so, orochimaru's experience of learning from the third hokage, becoming a sannin and becoming a akatsuki member means orochimaru greatly outstats kisame in terms of real world and fighting experience.
No he don't. Orochimaru likely outclass him in terms of numbers of battle he have been in but nothing is sure about that, anyway it's not like it's means something about Orochimaru being stronger than Kisame in skills or battle intellect ,as a matter of fact
experience don't mean being better at fighting.
Kakuzu and 90 years old veteran who was already fighting under the First Hokage era, was outclassed and outsmarted and defeat by an 15 years old boy tactic
Counters about Strenght
but this doesn't necessarily means orochimaru already lost, as he got plenty of strength to handle kisame for some time. we know that orochimaru managed to assassinate the fourth kazekage, gaara's dad, pretty easily. along with a couple of kazekages gaurds.
We know for a fact it was most than likely an ambush. Gaara dad was in a alliance with Orochimaru and Orochimaru used that to attack him by surprise. Furthermore Orochimaru was alongside Kabuto and if you use the anime filler about that assasination he was also with Kimimaro. So I don't need to debunk further about Gaara father because Orochimaru don't fought him in a proper 1vs1 he ambushed him and sneaky killed him before he could react.
but even though, his match up with the third hokage should show his amazing fighting prowess. during his fight, just by flexing his charka a little bit, orochi was able to cause the ground below him to break open and crack.
Impressive but far from being as impressive as breaking Mokuton prison-pressure while being seriously weakened after fighting Guy and tanking the Hirudora at full power right on his body and being crushed by it
Keep in mind that when Kisame break Yamato Mokuton pressure, he did it just after waking up from an intensive mind control
But what is even more impressiveabout that, it's the fact that Yamato Mokuton was show to be able to handle and restrain for a time Naruto Four tails Kyubi ,which means that Kisame raw strenght>> Naruto four tails raw strenght
Some other feats of him is going hand to hand with sarutobi.
Sarutobi was with a weak old man body. Even Enma, Sarutobi summon stated that Hiruzen could have surely killed Orochimaru when Hiruzen was younger.
Even Orochimaru admitted that Hiruzen was waaaaaaay weaker than he was when he was 10-12 years younger
theses are highly impressive, as sarutobi was able to completely catch hashirama's arm, while sarutobi was under his bringer of darkness jutsu. this means orochimaru is able to at least be comparable in H2H speed with hashirama in a imperfect edo state.
The same imperfect Hashirama who was so weakened in Edo State that he can't break Orochimaru control and he can't even resist against it ? The same imperfect Hashirama who was so weakened that even with the help of Tobirama he and Orochimaru can't kill an a old and weakened Hiruzen ?
allso, the part of the scan where orochimaru is blocking the staff is incredibly impressive, as this staff was strong enough to push the kyubi out of village boundaries with ease, and orochimaru blocked it casually with his blade.
That was the 12 years old Younger Hiruzen who did it.
we all know the nine tails is a being of incredible power, a being in which can level a mountain with a single tail, and sarutobi was able to send it flying with a single staff. and for orochimaru to be able to resist the hit of the hokage should put him easily around mountain level by scaling.
No. Because the Hiruzen who did this was much stronger and in a much better physical shape than the one Orochimaru fought.
but lets get into some more feats of his strength. just by swinging his tongue, hes able to cause a massive crater from swinging jiraiya. and might i add, this is him severely handicapped from the reaper death seal that took away his ability to morph jutsus.
Cool feat. But far from being as impressive as overpowering Might Guy the Taijutsu and body strenght master with a single strike from Samehada
In fact Kisame overpowered Guy so much that he pushed him far away deep down under water which is extremely impressive.
but lets get into some good stuff, like him being able to push back a KCM4 cloak naruto while handicapped, which not even jiraiya could handle a cloaked three tails.
First of all Jiraiya was surprised and Jiraiya was obviously holding back. He wouldn't want to hurt Naruto obviously.
Second of all Kisame already did a similar feat but who was much better , he stopped Killer B V1 charge and lifted him up above him with Samehada while taking a part of his chakra cloack during the process
Killer Bee the perfect Jinchûriki who have much better strenght feats than Naruto in base, and who control perfectly his Tailed Beast using V1>>>Naruto under Kurama control with Four tails .
hes even able to keep KCM4 naruto from tagging him by using his snakes to stop the strike from the raging beast.
Nice feat, but not as impressive as matching head against head when stopping Killer Bee V1 headbut and Kisame did this without any troubles at all
I would like to remember to y'all that BASE KILLER BEE is far stronger than giants bears who are as massive, if not more than summons
. his pure physical prowess wont win him this match though, but his willingness to stay into the fight and able to fight on par with a opponent such as a KCM4 naruto would allow him to at least trade and keep up with kisame.
this should show that orochimaru is capable of competing with kisame for some time
I agree that Orochimaru won't be overpowered directly but if he try to fight Kisame in close combat he would get his ass kicked and let alone in strenght contest. While it's true, that I don't think Kisame would kill him with Kenjutsu/Taijutsu he can surely push him back and damage him enough to force Orochimaru to run away and try to keep his distance. Because fighting Kisame in close combat is quite bad idea for Orochimaru not only because Kisame is stronger but because he can absorb Orochimaru chakra while they are trading blows.
Counters about Speed
i feel comfortable enough to say orochimaru is at least comparable, likely higher then kisame for a couple of reasons. orochimaru is no slouch when it comes to speed, which im gonna show im a moment. so lets start with some small ones, like orochimaru appearing as a blur when he was evading kunais thrown by a two tomoe sharingan sasuke.
I feel comfortable enough to say Kisame is at least superior likely higher than Orochimaru for a couples of reasons especially when it come to reactions and speed reflexes
the hokage here is insane, even as edo, who is able to keep up with a edo madara and obito. but lets get into some more juicy things then just hokages. even while having his arms sealed by the third hokage, orochimaru was able to out maneuver jiraiya and tag him on the throat while he had his underworld spikes on.
Nice speed feats but Kisame did as good if not better. When he was fighting Guy team who where all close combat/H2H experts he was able to almost remain untagged the whole fight before Guy used the gates [The ony time he was directly hit was when Neji attacked him with the long range palm technique]
Baring Neji who was able to successfully tag him when Kisame was focusing Guy, and Neji only hit him because he used a long ranged move , Kisame remained untagged the whole fight before Guy used the gates and even then despite not being able to stop the kick he was still able to somehow see it and react against Guy attack
this is a good feat, cause even prime jiraiya is at least comparable to the third, and orochimaru was able to keep up with him, putting him around Massively Hypersonic or Massively Hypersonic+, depending on how you scale jiraiya to pain. but even so, orochimaru was able to dodge the charka arm of KCM3 naruto, rather easily while nerfed by his arms.
Good feat but not a better feat than reacting against an attack coming from above [a blind point] when Kisame was focused on fighting guy+creating the clones before the three opponents all expert in H2H touch him [including Rock Lee and Neji] +stopping them when they are still in the airs + traping all of them in a Water Prison before they can react
we all know naruto is a massive monster in speed, even as a kid, he was able to speed blitz a sasuke who could out speed gaara's sand, which could react to explosions. which explosions go around 26,400 feet per second (8,050 meters per second), and sasuke surpassed that rather easily. and we have sasuke, completely overwelmed by the pure speed of naruto.
Kisame was able to react and stop two of Killer Bee charge, a Killer Bee who was with a massive boost in speed due to his V1 cloacks and base Bee is fast enough to cross a distance of two mountains in an instant
naruto blitzed sasuke to high heavens. This is impressive because the sharingan lets sasuke perceive things that are even too fast for him such as rock lee, to a degree greater than that of a regular human, but he couldn't even see naruto moving. even then, in a much much much higher form of KCM for naruto, orochimaru was able to react to him and at least be on par with him while handicapped
Thank you for bringing this . Because now you proved how much better Kisame speed reactions feats are. Kisame was able to stop an attack from Killer Bee coming from a blind point while dodging just before another attack coming from the other side AND stopping another attack from another side
And we all know how Killer Bee pressured Sasuke in close combat and managed to tag before Sasuke could try to defend himself, a Sasuke much much much much much stronger faster and skilled than the one you used for you point
it wont matter cause orochimarus reaction and combat speed greatly outstats kisame anyway,
No.
Endurance/ durability
Now I want to make something clear. I do agree that Orochimaru have likely a better durability [ and regenerative powers mostly] Than Kisame but Kisame is not THAT much weaker than him in that era in fact he have feats very impressives.
As I proved he was able to tank the full power of Hirudora who created a explosion even greater than the one Four Tails Naruto TBB did against Orochimaru [you can see in the right side of the scan how small is the Island in comparison of the explosion] and Kisame survived it with littles to none serious injuries
He was also able to survive from having the major part of his high body/torso completely destroyed by Killer B V2 charge which would have killed almost anyone in Naruto baring those like Kisame and Orochimaru with regeneration obviously.
Samehada can cure Kisame most dangerous injudries in a matter of seconds as I proved with those two scans, so even if Orochimaru manage to somehow hurt Kisame (would not happen) he would be helped by his sword right away.
And about Stamina I don't see how Orochimaru is superior ? Can you provide some scans than Kisame being tired ?
Jutsus
one of them is the sinking jutsu, which allows him to sink into the ground to escape any dangerous situation he might be in.
Kisame can pretty easily counter this. He would just turn the battlefied into water and then Orochimaru who can't stay forever underground would have to come out and then Kisame sharks would eat him completely.
Orochimaru regenerative powers are impressives but he never ever showed to be able to come back from nonexistence or to be able to regenerate himself only from blood , and Kisame sharks can eat someone completely if he want them to do so, only the blood remains
And one of the most dangerous abilities orochimaru has is too use Genjutsu. orochimaru is severely good at using genjutsu, enough so, that he can trick a two tomoe sasuke and make kakashi see his death while using a genjutsu.
This is not Genjutsu what he used against Kakashi and Sasuke/Sakura it's called killing intent (https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Killing_Intent) which only works if the opponent is afraid , Kisame woun't be afraid of Orochimaru.
i believe this alone could snag orochimaru the win by genjutsuing him and taking his sweet time to go over to him and think of plenty of ways to kill him, because kisame hasn't shown any genjutsu resistance from what i know. if im missing one, please enlighten me.
but other then genjutsu, he allso knows wind style, a wind style powerful enough to uproot trees.
Kisame already proved that even when he is weakened he can break himself free from mind control.
Anyway it's not like it does matters because you only showed to me Orochimaru killing intent feats which only work against people who are afraid of the user which wouldn't work against Kisame. At all.
some fire style jutsus
Useless against Kisame super powerful water jutsu.
we all know wind is the natural enemy to water in naruto
Sure but Orochimaru haven't showed any wind jutsu who would save him when he is underwater or when he is inside Kisame water Jutsu unless you use some feats who can prove it, Orochimaru can't breathe underwater so when Kisame will use Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave Orochimaru will be trap inside the water without being able to breathe and Kisame would easily beat him.
ut even so, orochimaru has access to the Shadow clone jutsu, which can give him enough time to plan a strategy to defeat the monster.
Kisame can do the same and counter his Shadow clone with his water clones.
his shadow clone is so close to the original to sight, that not even a special jounin could tell the difference between the two.
It doens't matter because even if Orochimaru manage to trap Kisame with one of his clones Kisame is fast and skilled enough to react against everything Orochimaru could try. Anyway it's not like Orochimaru can do anything before Kisame who a proved to be faster overwhelm him with water jutsus and his sharks jutsus such as this one :
Kisame can send a wave of a THOUSAND massives sharks against Orochimaru and crush him with it, and when Orochimaru is confused about how to fight back the sharks would eat his entire body in an instant before he could do anything.
but one of his most recognizable jutsus is his body manipulation jutsu, which allows him to change and morph his body into snake like properties.
How that would help him against the sharks wave ?
he can allso use his tongue as a weapon if he needs too. his tongue is potent enough to destroy a zero cloak naruto and body tsundere.
How that would help him here ? Kisame with 100 f distance would have turned the battlefied into water long before Orochimaru try to use this on him.
orochimaru is a absolute genius when it comes to hiding, as he can passively camouflage himself when he feels the need too.
With the battlefield turned into water and with a thousand sharks searching for him I don't see how it would help him here. The best he can do it's run away.
but thats not all of his snake aspects, he can summons not only snakes from his mouth, but himself and countless weapons, which the snakes themselves can weild.
Kisame can dodge and overwhelm in close combat those kind of attacks anyway. I still don't see how it's help him against the thousand sharks or how this would help him fighting underwater.
this can give orochimaru the advantage in close, or long range.
Kisame is stronger and faster and he have his sharks to help him. And he can also become one with Samehada and use his beast form when they are both underwater and then body Orochimaru with it. Orochimaru have no feats who suggest he can fight decently underwater let alone against Kisame who fusioned with Samehada and who is much faster and can suck all his chakra.
About the whole snakes summons argument none of them have feats who suggest they can fight underwater, the would just die because they can't breathe or they would get killed by the sharks.
orochimaru will be resort to his white snake form.
Orochimaru only use this form when he take a new body, so he obviously wouldn't want to try this against Kisame and anyway it's not like he can do it before being dead.
with this form, orochimaru can simply wait for kisame to slash him, then orochimaru will simply absorb him.
Won't happen because Kisame sword don't cut and Orochimaru would be dead long before considering using this as a last measure.
Conclusion
Kisame is as fast if not faster than Orochimaru.
Kisame is faster when it's comes to reaction feats and reflexes and general combat speed.
Kisame is as skilled if not more than Orochimaru in close combat.
Kisame is way stronger than Orochimaru in both strenght and striking.
Kisame can counter everything Orochimaru try before he tries it .
Orochimaru would get overwhelm either by the Thousand shark jutsu and get eaten or either he would die because Kisame would absord all his chakra and Orochimaru can't breathe underwater.
Orochimaru have no counter against Kisame massive jutsus and can't outsmart or overpower them.
As I showed above even before becoming one of the legendary swordsmen of the mist Kisame was already trusted for the most dangerous missions , he fought in numerous fights and battles even before joining the swordmens and as far as we know he always came back unscratched. As a matter of fact when the group was ambushed by Ibiki division Kisame killed every ninja who attacked him and after killing his fellow members he managed to escape despite being alone and surrounded by an elite group.
While impressive in its own right, the legendary sannin were renowned by all, a orochimaru was a prodigy seen only once in a generation.
Then he joined the Seven Ninja Swordsmen of The Mist which is the group who lead Kiri army on frontlines and fight in the most dangerous missions by himself. So Kisame acquired plenty of battle experience when he was with the group.
true, but due to orochimaru being practically immortal, and being born into the third shinobi war, he gained far higher amounts of experience.
When he joined the Akatsuki after becoming an S-rank criminal he fought in numerous fights alongside Itachi, and when Orochimaru deserted the group, Kisame was still gaining experience while Orochimaru was not fighting anymore. As a matter of fact Orochimaru stayed years without fighting anyone after he deserted the Akatsuki.
no, he just experimented on his body and several others during that time.
Furthermore Kisame fought against strong Jinchurikis with various and versatile fighting style, so even if it's true that Orochimaru have some more experience it's not THAT much.
i disagree on this, as i said before, orochimaru was born into a war, which he had to kill and fight several higher ranked shinobis, some being extremely dangerous like hanzo.
Feats>Reputation. We know for a fact that Itachi who was still a kid when he beat him>Orochimaru.
due to his sharingan. do you believe at that time kisame would stand a chance against itachi? i believe orochimaru would of killed him either way if he wasn't a uchiha with a sharingan. this is further proved by the fact that orochimaru, if he wasn't under genjutsu, would of killed itachi.
And Itachi at that time was far from having Orocimaru reputation even with the slaughter of his clan. As a matters of fact even Kisame stated that the sannin reputation where beyond the Swordsmen and the Uchiha.
yeah? orochimaru was one of the greatest of the sannins, and you bring up a high tier uchiha beating him to prove? again, i'll bring this up, do you believe kisame would beat itachi at this point?
Counters on strength
We know for a fact it was most than likely an ambush.
even if it was a ambush, there was high ranking shinobi guards guarding the kazekage. which he had to kill as well.
Gaara dad was in a alliance with Orochimaru and Orochimaru used that to attack him by surprise.
go back to my guard point.
Furthermore Orochimaru was alongside Kabuto and if you use the anime filler about that assasination he was also with Kimimaro.
kabuto is pretty useless there, as i presume he was only there for information, not in the over all assassination. and im not using filler cause the rules said Manga/Anime canon
So I don't need to debunk further about Gaara father because Orochimaru don't fought him in a proper 1vs1 he ambushed him and sneaky killed him before he could react.
its more of a 50/50 chance on how you see it, cause there was guards around the kazekage, which implies there was a struggle.
Impressive but far from being as impressive as breaking Mokuton prison-pressure while being seriously weakened after fighting Guy and tanking the Hirudora at full power right on his body and being crushed by it
yeah, i agree on this feat being weaker then that one.
Keep in mind that when Kisame break Yamato Mokuton pressure, he did it just after waking up from an intensive mind control
yeah? its still...
But what is even more impressive about that, it's the fact that Yamato Mokuton was show to be able to handle and restrain for a time Naruto Four tails Kyubi ,which means that Kisame raw strenght>> Naruto four tails raw strenght
ohh boy.. you realize it held down kisame as well for some time. and naruto in this form broke out rather easier then kisame.
Sarutobi was with a weak old man body. Even Enma, Sarutobi summon stated that Hiruzen could have surely killed Orochimaru when Hiruzen was younger.
which even as his old frail body fought, he was able to fight edo versions of the kage, which were nearly as good as there true forms.
and theses hokages were pretty much blood lusted as commented by kabuto.
The same imperfect Hashirama who was so weakened in Edo State that he can't break Orochimaru control and he can't even resist against it ?
ok? even a perfect edo zombies like nagato, jins, swordsmen and etc couldn't break out of a edo, so i don't see why this is valid.
The same imperfect Hashirama who was so weakened that even with the help of Tobirama he and Orochimaru can't kill an a old and weakened Hiruzen ?
your downplaying hiruzen when he was stated to be the strongest of the three.
even so, this hiruzen could keep up and blitz a blood lusted tobirama and hashirama just fine.
That was the 12 years old Younger Hiruzen who did it.
and that should chance the outcome how? he was still old AF when he did it, and to think he couldn't do it again, despite his old age would be pretty ridiculous don't you think?
No. Because the Hiruzen who did this was much stronger and in a much better physical shape than the one Orochimaru fought.
as i stated before, when he fought the nine tails, he was still old and still pretty frail. this orochimaru might be fighting a older shinobi, but it doesn't mean it makes it easier.
Cool feat. But far from being as impressive as overpowering Might Guy the Taijutsu and body strenght master with a single strike from Samehada
overpowering a base guy isn't that impressive, but still good.
First of all Jiraiya was surprised and Jiraiya was obviously holding back. He wouldn't want to hurt Naruto obviously.
doesn't want to hurt naruto, even though the cloaked naruto was blood lusted? even if you do imply that, this makes orochimarus feat all the better as orochimaru was severely handicapped and weakened while fighting a more powerful version.
Second of all Kisame already did a similar feat but who was much better , he stopped Killer B V1 charge and lifted him up above him with Samehada while taking a part of his chakra cloak during the process
with samehada absorbing the charka, of course it would drastically decrease the initial impact.
Nice feat, but not as impressive as matching head against head when stopping Killer Bee V1 headbut and Kisame did this without any troubles at all
that feat can still be brought down to his chakra being absorbed, but yeah, still very impressive.
I would like to remember to y'all that BASE KILLER BEE is far stronger than giants bears who are as massive, if not more than summons
id like to make this clear that this is useless information, as kid sasuke done the same thing.
and this bear is several times bigger than that panda you mentioned. and orochimaru>>>>>>>kid sasuke during that point.
I agree that Orochimaru won't be overpowered directly but if he try to fight Kisame in close combat he would get his ass kicked and let alone in strenght contest. While it's true, that I don't think Kisame would kill him with Kenjutsu/Taijutsu he can surely push him back and damage him enough to force Orochimaru to run away and try to keep his distance. Because fighting Kisame in close combat is quite bad idea for Orochimaru not only because Kisame is stronger but because he can absorb Orochimaru chakra while they are trading blows.
while i agree, you haven't disproved my god tree statement. in which he held it back with little difficulty, something not even the naruto in that panel could do.
and again, there is no reason to downplay a hiruzen, as a weaker form hiruzen was able to cut the god tree limbs with zero diff.
but neither less, lets move to speed.
Speed counters
I feel comfortable enough to say Kisame is at least superior likely higher than Orochimaru for a couples of reasons especially when it come to reactions and speed reflexes
ok, lets see.
Nice speed feats but Kisame did as good if not better. When he was fighting Guy team who where all close combat/H2H experts he was able to almost remain untagged the whole fight before Guy used the gates [The ony time he was directly hit was when Neji attacked him with the long range palm technique]
while impressive, not as impressive as the edo kage reacting to the yamato blasts before it could reach any of the allies.
Baring Neji who was able to successfully tag him when Kisame was focusing Guy, and Neji only hit him because he used a long ranged move , Kisame remained untagged the whole fight before Guy used the gates and even then despite not being able to stop the kick he was still able to somehow see it and react against Guy attack
the scan you shown was him being blitzed by guy and saying "too fast" before he could even lift his arms, i dont see how that should correspond with reaction time on his side.
Good feat but not a better feat than reacting against an attack coming from above [a blind point]
it shown him seeing them from said blind point.
when Kisame was focused on fighting guy+creating the clones before the three opponents all expert in H2H touch him [including Rock Lee and Neji]
i wouldn't call tenten a expert in H2H lol, but neji and rock are. but he could create the clones with no hand signs, which is impressive i will say.
+stopping them when they are still in the airs
his clones stopped them.
+ traping all of them in a Water Prison before they can react
his clones done that while he was busy with might guy.
Kisame was able to react and stop two of Killer Bee charge, a Killer Bee who was with a massive boost in speed due to his V1 cloacks and base Bee is fast enough to cross a distance of two mountains in an instant
i would not say instant, or directly scale bees speed to kisame, but yeah, its incredibly good feat.
Thank you for bringing this . Because now you proved how much better Kisame speed reactions feats are. Kisame was able to stop an attack from Killer Bee coming from a blind point while dodging just before another attack coming from the other side AND stopping another attack from another side
while extremely impressive, orochimaru was able to react to a bijuu bomb, hurling at him and set down gates all before it could reach him. and we all know bijuu bombs go across the terrain at a highly face pace. and even so, he was able to react to narutos bijuu hands while they were underground, before it could even surface.
And we all know how Killer Bee pressured Sasuke in close combat and managed to tag before Sasuke could try to defend himself, a Sasuke much much much much much stronger faster and skilled than the one you used for you point
while very true, this isnt orochimarus true speed, as not only can he react and grab onto the god tree limbs, but even severely weakened, he could out pace the charka arms of naruto and react fast enough to intercept a bijuu bomb in midair.
it wont matter cause orochimarus reaction and combat speed greatly outstats kisame anyway,
No.
i should reword it. not greatly outstats, just out stats in general.
Counters to endurance/durability
Now I want to make something clear. I do agree that Orochimaru have likely a better durability [ and regenerative powers mostly] Than Kisame but Kisame is not THAT much weaker than him in that era in fact he have feats very impressives.
i agree on this, kisame has shown very good durability feats.
As I proved he was able to tank the full power of Hirudora who created a explosion even greater than the one Four Tails Naruto TBB did against Orochimaru [you can see in the right side of the scan how small is the Island in comparison of the explosion] and Kisame survived it with littles to none serious injuries
i disagree on the whole tanking thing, while he survived it, he came out of it with very sever injuries. while orochimaru came out rather unharmed. im not downplaying said feat, which is more impressive then the TBB naruto did, but the difference in tanking it is clear between the two feats.
He was also able to survive from having the major part of his high body/torso completely destroyed by Killer B V2 charge which would have killed almost anyone in Naruto baring those like Kisame and Orochimaru with regeneration obviously.
while severely impressive, it said in your scan that it was because of the stolen charka samehada stole,which was put into healing him. if not for that, kisame would of died without samehada.
Samehada can cure Kisame most dangerous injudries in a matter of seconds as I proved with those two scans, so even if Orochimaru manage to somehow hurt Kisame (would not happen) he would be helped by his sword right away.
while i agree, thats if it can steal any of orochimarus charka before hand, which i doubt due to the speed and combat speed difference between the two.
And about Stamina I don't see how Orochimaru is superior ? Can you provide some scans than Kisame being tired ?
while very hard to cause his stamina to break, he can in fact run out of it(reckon he has to be near death for that to happen) but even so, after his arms being sealed by the reaper death seal(which caused his arms to burn like they were on fire might i add), he was able to withstand that without much effort for two years.
Counters to jutsus
Kisame can pretty easily counter this. He would just turn the battlefied into water and then Orochimaru who can't stay forever underground would have to come out and then Kisame sharks would eat him completely.
while a good counter, kisame doesnt start out in character by flooding the battlefield. and orochimaru can do this rather casually, which could get the drop on him.
Orochimaru regenerative powers are impressives but he never ever showed to be able to come back from nonexistence or to be able to regenerate himself only from blood , and Kisame sharks can eat someone completely if he want them to do so, only the blood remains.
i agree, he hasn't come back from nothing. but he has shown to come back from fragments of his charka lying about via his curse marks.
This is not Genjutsu what he used against Kakashi and Sasuke/Sakura it's called killing intent (https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Killing_Intent) which only works if the opponent is afraid , Kisame woun't be afraid of Orochimaru.
oh, i see. thanks for the heads up! i'll reform of using the genjutsu argument.
Sure but Orochimaru haven't showed any wind jutsu who would save him when he is underwater or when he is inside Kisame water Jutsu unless you use some feats who can prove it,
nope, but a natural enemy is a enemy as wind>water. and uprooting tree trunks takes a massive amount of force to accomplice. A tree of this type can weigh in excess of 50 tons. it would take about 1400 pounds. or 2800 pounds. which can easily overpower the water kisame is able to produce.
Orochimaru can't breathe underwater so when Kisame will use Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave Orochimaru will be trap inside the water without being able to breathe and Kisame would easily beat him.
i wouldn't necessarily say that. he could use wind style to create bubbles for himself or other unorthodox methods of jutsus to help him out if submerged.
It doesn't matter because even if Orochimaru manage to trap Kisame with one of his clones Kisame is fast and skilled enough to react against everything Orochimaru could try.
so hes trapped, but able to react while trapped? odd.
Anyway it's not like Orochimaru can do anything before Kisame who a proved to be faster overwhelm him with water jutsus and his sharks jutsus such as this one
i proved in my counter speed post that orochimaru is faster, and orochimaru can do the same with his snakes, and with less charka storage.
Kisame can send a wave of a THOUSAND massives sharks against Orochimaru and crush him with it, and when Orochimaru is confused about how to fight back the sharks would eat his entire body in an instant before he could do anything.
orochimaru can create MILLIONS of snakes to overwhelm kisame and crush him. and his snakes can simply use his weapons as well, as with blades or there fangs. and they can allso immenstor poison to the person once bit, which will cause massive confusion on kisames part.
How that would help him against the sharks wave ?
firstly, kisame doesnt start off with shark wave while orochimaru mostly always starts out with his snakes, and secondly, his body morphing wont help, it'll just be troublesome for them to hit.
How that would help him here ? Kisame with 100 f distance would have turned the battlefied into water long before Orochimaru try to use this on him.
as i said, kisame IC does not flood the area at first, and kisame loves to go to H2H firstly in combat, which WILL give him time to use his tongue.
With the battlefield turned into water and with a thousand sharks searching for him I don't see how it would help him here. The best he can do it's run away.
as i said before, he doesnt flood at first, and he can allways sneak up on him if given the chance.
Kisame can dodge and overwhelm in close combat those kind of attacks anyway. I still don't see how it's help him against the thousand sharks or how this would help him fighting underwater.
doublyfully he can dodge strikes from millions of snakes, and again, which i will not be repeating because you bring it up everytime, he DOES NOT flood instantly or use his snakes at first.
Kisame is stronger and faster and he have his sharks to help him. And he can also become one with Samehada and use his beast form when they are both underwater and then body Orochimaru with it. Orochimaru have no feats who suggest he can fight decently underwater let alone against Kisame who fusioned with Samehada and who is much faster and can suck all his chakra.
the fight wouldn't last long once he goes into close quarters, which gives orochimaru time to plant a curse mark on him, rendering kisame immobile. hes fast enough to tag a tobi infused yamato, which is another speed feat i did fail to mention
About the whole snakes summons argument none of them have feats who suggest they can fight underwater, the would just die because they can't breathe or they would get killed by the sharks.
so you completely ignore the snake and manda summons because you believe kisame will flood asap? odd, because manda is bigger then gamabunta, which can crush kisame when given the chance.
Orochimaru only use this form when he take a new body, so he obviously wouldn't want to try this against Kisame and anyway it's not like he can do it before being dead.
??? orochimaru does this when he is near death, or needs a new body. this can stop him dead in his tracks if kisame wants to battle it.
Won't happen because Kisame sword don't cut
let me stop you there
it does slice, as shown here.
and Orochimaru would be dead long before considering using this as a last measure.
nope, but i like that attitude, but even so, i failed to mention more of his jutsus, like his charka sealing jutsu, which can seal charka of a person.
but even so, if pushed, orochimaru can allso resort to this, his hydra
if not for the sword of tosuka, im am fairly sure orochimaru would of defeated itachi in this. and this form should be enough if backed into a corner.
Conclusion
Orochimaru can keep up and tag kisame before he knows whats happening
orochimaru can tag him with his millions of snakes or restrict his charka with seals.
orochimaru can tank pretty much any attack kisame throws at him
orochimaru has a overwhelming amount of experience to deal with kisame.
orochimaru has a overwhelming amount of jutsus to deal with anything kisame throws towards his way.
orochimaru can and most likely will hit kisame with his curse mark, and restrict his movement, then will decap kisame moments later, or absorb him as a new host.
While impressive in its own right, the legendary sannin were renowned by all, a orochimaru was a prodigy seen only once in a generation.
Feats>statement, and prodigy don't means he is stronger. Kisame is also an unique prodigy who have arguably [likely] the strongests Suiton jutsu in all Naruto. Hell, Kisame managed to become a beast and unlock an beast transformation without being a tailed beast.
Raikage with V1 who was able to stop and restrain KCM Naruto could arguably kill Jiraiya before he tries really anything does this means that the Raikage is a greastest prodigy/genius than Jiraiya ?
Onoki can destroy any of the sannin in 1vs1 does this means he is a greatest prodigy ? Orochimaru is an insane and unique scientist and jutsus creator this is why he is an unique prodigy , just like Tsunade with her medical jutsus.
true, but due to orochimaru being practically immortal, and being born into the third shinobi war, he gained far higher amounts of experience.
How him being "praticall immortal" help your argument at all ? And we don't know that, we can't know in how many missions and battles Kisame have been, same for Orochimaru. As far as we know they can have a comparable amont of fighting experience. But I agree, likely Orochimaru have fought more than Kisame in his life, but again that don't mean anything.
no, he just experimented on his body and several others during that time.
Yes, soooo ? We agree that he was not fighting and gaining experience when Kisame was ? And we know for a fact that the Akatsuki was already used by the Hidden Stone so Kisame was likely in pretty hards missions while Orochimaru was doing scientific things.
i disagree on this, as i said before, orochimaru was born into a war, which he had to kill and fight several higher ranked shinobis, some being extremely dangerous like hanzo.
Nobody eslse was like Hanzo. Hanzo was one of the strongest of that time even Pain said that he killed him because he was far weaker and rusty
And the sannins LOST the fight against Hanzo they are only alive because Hanzo allowed them to survive out of respect.
due to his sharingan. do you believe at that time kisame would stand a chance against itachi?
Unlike Orochimaru Kisame can break sharingan genjutsu due to Samehada (it's arguable about Tsukyomi) we don't know if Itachi was with Susanoo etc at that time. So I wouldn't say as a fact that Kisame can win but I can surely say that Kisame would give him a much harder challenge than Orochimaru.
And before anyone lose their mind YES SAMEHEDA CAN VERY LIKELY BREAK GENJUTSU
The sword is alive and can feel emotions and act on his own will and we know for a fact that the sword can give her chakra to the user, why couldn't she break genjutsu ?
i believe orochimaru would of killed him either way if he wasn't a uchiha with a sharingan.
Orochimaru himself admitted that he can't beat Itachi in a fight 1vs1. He in fact stated that Itachi was clearly superior
yeah? orochimaru was one of the greatest of the sannins, and you bring up a high tier uchiha beating him to prove? again, i'll bring this up, do you believe kisame would beat itachi at this point?
Answered just above.
Counters about strength
even if it was a ambush, there was high ranking shinobi guards guarding the kazekage. which he had to kill as well.
Lol you know very well that is not a good argument. Because those high ranking shinobi just like Konoha nonames from Anbu are most than likely fodders. In fact almost everyone who is not named is fodder, Kid Kakashi was keeping up against an entire group of Anbu from Kiri and killing them in 1vs1 before Obito came. (Rin death scene)
go back to my guard point.
Go back to my fodder point
and im not using filler cause the rules said Manga/Anime canon
Fair point. You are right filler are not allowed I made a mistake.
kabuto is pretty useless there, as i presume he was only there for information, not in the over all assassination.
Why wouldn't he be there for assassination ? He is a Kakashi lvl ninja and was know to be Orochimaru right-hand man for years
Orochimaru is arrogant and can be cocky but he is not stupid. He wouldn't attack the Kazekage and his guards by himself without any possible backup
its more of a 50/50 chance on how you see it, cause there was guards around the kazekage, which implies there was a struggle.
Orochimaru could have sneaky killed with Kabuto help the guards when they where off-guard and then he rushed Rasa who was surprised ? Or Orochimaru could have rushed Rasa and stabbed him by surprise when he was off-guard, and then killed the guards by himself ? Y'know something like that.
ohh boy.. you realize it held down kisame as well for some time. and naruto in this form broke out rather easier then kisame.
No. Kisame almost as soon as he woke up brook the Mokuton as you can see in the scan and unlike Kisame Kyubi Naruto was not seriously weakened and was not under a prison who was prepared when he was inconscious to have an strong pressure on him.
which even as his old frail body fought, he was able to fight edo versions of the kage, which were nearly as good as there true forms.
Completely false and you know it. A nearly as good as his true form Edo Hashirama was the one who was brought back during the War Arc , this one is able of breaking Orochimaru control very very easily , Orochimaru was totaly unable to have a control on him even with a stronger Edo Tensei than the one he used against Hiruzen
Tobirama himself stated that him and Hashirama edo where almost as strong as their prime in comparison with the last time when they where far weaker
The Edo Hokages who fought Hiruzen where leagues weakers than their primes versions.
and theses hokages were pretty much blood lusted as commented by kabuto.
Cool, Hokages leagues weakers than their prime version bloodlusted.
ok? even a perfect edo zombies like nagato, jins, swordsmen and etc couldn't break out of a edo, so i don't see why this is valid.
It's valid because what I said above, and because Hashirama is far stronger than any of them.
your downplaying hiruzen when he was stated to be the strongest of the three.
Feats>Statement, and Hiruzen can't beat the Raikage or Onoki if you want to we can make another CaV , Old Hiruzen vs Raikage.
even so, this hiruzen could keep up and blitz a blood lusted tobirama and hashirama just fine.
Again, leagues under their prime.
and that should chance the outcome how? he was still old AF when he did it, and to think he couldn't do it again, despite his old age would be pretty ridiculous don't you think?
No. The last time Orochimaru saw Hiruzen it was 10 years ago, (2 years after Kyubi attack) and both Enma and Orochimaru stated that the Hiruzen from that period was far stronger than the one who fought Orochimaru.
as i stated before, when he fought the nine tails, he was still old and still pretty frail. this orochimaru might be fighting a older shinobi, but it doesn't mean it makes it easier.
As I proved, this is false.
overpowering a base guy isn't that impressive, but still good.
Kisame did not only overpowered him, he literally crushed him when both matched strength , Kisame strenght was so much above Guy, that Guy was send deep down underwater when Kisame clashed against him
doesn't want to hurt naruto, even though the cloaked naruto was blood lusted? even if you do imply that,
I do. Jiraiya love Naruto like a son and Naruto was a freakin 12/13 years old child when that happened, no way in the world Jiraiya tried to hurt him.
this makes orochimarus feat all the better as orochimaru was severely handicapped and weakened while fighting a more powerful version.
Most of Orochimaru arsenal come from his snakes jutsus from what he saw, and when he fought Naruto Kyubi he could use many of them. He was absolutely fine and not severely weakened. And unlike Jiraiya Orochimaru tried to kill Naruto.
with samehada absorbing the charka, of course it would drastically decrease the initial impact.
Kisame still need to be strong enough to absord the impact with his swordhand and arm, without being overpowered by the said impact, as we saw during Kisame vs KillerBee while Samehada can absord many chakra from Bee she can't just stop all of it in an instant when Bee is charging.
that feat can still be brought down to his chakra being absorbed, but yeah, still very impressive.
The cloack already give Bee a significant speed and strenght boost when Samehada absorbed the chakra.
id like to make this clear that this is useless information, as kid sasuke done the same thing.
Ok, good point. It is useless.
while i agree, you haven't disproved my god tree statement. in which he held it back with little difficulty, something not even the naruto in that panel could do.
Yeah sorry I forgot about this, this is so far the best strenght feat you showed. But I don't think it outclass most of my Kisame feats. KCM Naruto/Naruto who became friend with Kyubi have not that much of strenght feats (I don't remember any where he show a impressive amount of strenght or striking power), in fact he is more about speed and striking fast.
Counters on speed & reflexes/reaction feats
while impressive, not as impressive as the edo kage reacting to the yamato blasts before it could reach any of the allies.
??????? How does that help Orochimaru case here ?
the scan you shown was him being blitzed by guy and saying "too fast" before he could even lift his arms, i dont see how that should correspond with reaction time on his side.
When Guy used the 6 gate Kisame was able of reacting to an extrent, When Guy jumped from the water to hit him Kisame managed to jump in the airs before he could ,while Guy was very easily able to follow him that show Kisame can at very least react against 6 gate instant speed
Despite Guy being able to blitz him in a speed contest , Kisame was able to try to hit him with Samehada when they where in the middle of the jump, which means he managed to react and try to defend himself before Guy could beat him with his kick, and even then Kisame was able to ALMOST hit Guy, as you can clearly see in the scan Kisame attack almost match Guy speed for a very short time
it shown him seeing them from said blind point.
Because he looked behind him ?
i wouldn't call tenten a expert in H2H lol, but neji and rock are. but he could create the clones with no hand signs, which is impressive i will say.
his clones stopped them.
his clones done that while he was busy with might guy.
Yeah right about Tenten and right about the clones, but still it show how fast and effectively Kisame can use his clones. Which he could use against Orochimaru and trap him in a Water Prison when Orochimaru try to sneaky attack him.
i would not say instant, or directly scale bees speed to kisame, but yeah, its incredibly good feat.
Kisame is able to react without troubles against Bee base speed. And like I already proved he can also react against Killer B V1 speed which is much much faster and Kisame have no troubles fighting back against this kind of super fast opponent like Bee who by feats is much faster than Orochimaru. Base Bee is fast enough to react and fight in a strenght contest V2 Raikage, when both are rushing against each other.
Kisame who can react from everything Bee tries in base=>/<Base Killer Bee in general speed.
Kisame who can stop without troubles any kind of attack from Bee even when Bee attack from behind and even when Bee use V1 = Kisame>Killer Bee in combat speed reflexes, which means Kisame>Bee>>Orochimaru by feats.
while extremely impressive, orochimaru was able to react to a bijuu bomb, hurling at him and set down gates all before it could reach him. and we all know bijuu bombs go across the terrain at a highly face pace. and even so, he was able to react to narutos bijuu hands while they were underground, before it could even surface.
Orochimaru saw Naruto Kyubi preparing the Bijuu bomb before he used it and he runned far away from it and was already prepared to counter it .
while very true, this isnt orochimarus true speed, as not only can he react and grab onto the god tree limbs, but even severely weakened, he could out pace the charka arms of naruto and react fast enough to intercept a bijuu bomb in midair.
and even so, he was able to react to narutos bijuu hands while they were underground, before it could even surface.
While quite impressive it's not on the lvl of the Kisame feats I showed. You don't debunked my point about Killer Bee V1 speed being much faster than Four tails Naruto speed . Because you know this is true.
i should reword it. not greatly outstats, just out stats in general.
Kisame speed, speed reaction and reflexes and combat speed>>Orochimaru.
Endurance & Durability
i disagree on the whole tanking thing, while he survived it, he came out of it with very sever injuries.
Well he dind't lose an arm or was with scars or anything, but yeah he was sracthed in the whole body and seriously weakened true.
while orochimaru came out rather unharmed. im not downplaying said feat, which is more impressive then the TBB naruto did, but the difference in tanking it is clear between the two feats.
Agreed, good point.
while severely impressive, it said in your scan that it was because of the stolen charka samehada stole,which was put into healing him. if not for that, kisame would of died without samehada.
Good thing Samehada is with him when he fight Orochimaru ins't it ?
while i agree, thats if it can steal any of orochimarus charka before hand, which i doubt due to the speed and combat speed difference between the two.
I already debunked this on the speed argument above.
while very hard to cause his stamina to break, he can in fact run out of it(reckon he has to be near death for that to happen) but even so, after his arms being sealed by the reaper death seal(which caused his arms to burn like they were on fire might i add), he was able to withstand that without much effort for two years.
We know for a fact that Orochimaru took a new body before meeting Sasuke in his hideout and this new body lasted for quite a time. As for Kisame stamina he was not without stamina in the scan you showed, he was just very badly hurt.
Counters about Jutsus
while a good counter, kisame doesnt start out in character by flooding the battlefield. and orochimaru can do this rather casually, which could get the drop on him.
I already proved above that Kisame know Orochimaru reputation and don't understimate him going by the said reputation. Furthermore Orochimaru was a former member of the Akatsuki and is said to be dangerous by Pain himself AND ITACHI, Kisame partner, Kisame have no reasons in the world to hold back against Orochimaru or to allow him to show his jutsu arsenal and abilities . He won't try to play with him like he did with Guy, he would most likely go all out and tries to kill him right away.
Furthermore Orochimaru won't be fast enough to do anything before Kisame turn the battlefied into water, V1 Killer Bee was unable to react against it and was traped by it without being able to do anything in reaction.
i agree, he hasn't come back from nothing. but he has shown to come back from fragments of his charka lying about via his curse marks.
Yes. He was able to do this when Sasuke used his power to fight Itachi because Sasuke literally ABSORBED Orochimaru, he wans't show to be able to come back by himself. Same when he ressurected he only came back to "life" because Sasuke brough him back. He can't come back by himself. So if Kisame sharks eat him he can't come back= Kisame wins.
nope, but a natural enemy is a enemy as wind>water. and uprooting tree trunks takes a massive amount of force to accomplice. A tree of this type can weigh in excess of 50 tons. it would take about 1400 pounds. or 2800 pounds. which can easily overpower the water kisame is able to produce.
Keep in mind that Orochimaru must escape the water dome BEFORE Kisame in his Tailed beast form body him like he did against Bee. When we look at Kisame Beast form speed and how he is strong underwater when Orochimaru don't know shi** how to fight underwater , I see no reason to think that Orochimaru can escape.
Even if Orochimaru manage to do that (which I highly doubt) and escape from Kisame giant water dome, Kisame can still turn the battlefield in a small lake like he did against Team Guy, and then Orochimaru would be forced to fight on it, and Kisame can pressure him and push him underwater like he did against Guy.
He can also use his Tailed Beast form which turn him in a much faster and stronger foe when he is on water/underwater, with it he can drag Orochimaru underwater and then he can body Orochimaru and stole his chakra when they are in close combat underwater. He did this exact same thing against Killer Bee , the difference here it's the fact that unlike Octopus, snakes are not good to fight underwater and Orochimaru is far from having as much chakra as Killer Bee.
i wouldn't necessarily say that. he could use wind style to create bubbles for himself or other unorthodox methods of jutsus to help him out if submerged.
He have no feats which would allow him to do that. Anyway Kisame would have stole all his chakra before he tries it.
so hes trapped, but able to react while trapped? odd.
I proved Kisame to be fast and skilled and strong enough to react even if Orochimaru take advantage with a sneaky attack.
i proved in my counter speed post that orochimaru is faster, and orochimaru can do the same with his snakes, and with less charka storage.
I proved Kisame to be way faster. Anyway the sharks are way bigger, just look at their sizes in my scan where they eat Kisame. And Kisame can't run out chakra , let alone with Samehada. Furthermore the shark wave could just crush the snakes with raw power given how massive the wave is in comparison with the snakes jutsu you showed.
orochimaru can create MILLIONS of snakes to overwhelm kisame and crush him. and his snakes can simply use his weapons as well, as with blades or there fangs. and they can allso immenstor poison to the person once bit, which will cause massive confusion on kisames part.
Kisame can fly using Water Shark missile technique and get away from Orochimaru range, and when he is in the airs he can spam jutsus to crush Orochimaru
firstly, kisame doesnt start off with shark wave while orochimaru mostly always starts out with his snakes,
Against Orochimaru which he doens't underestimate and know how dangerous he is , he will.
as i said, kisame IC does not flood the area at first, and kisame loves to go to H2H firstly in combat, which WILL give him time to use his tongue.
as i said before, he doesnt flood at first, and he can allways sneak up on him if given the chance.
which i will not be repeating because you bring it up everytime, he DOES NOT flood instantly or use his snakes at first.
Already answered and countered above.
doublyfully he can dodge strikes from millions of snakes, and again
Kisame can fly. Kisame can go underwater, Kisame can crush those snakes with his shark waves which he can spam because unlike Orochimaru he have a insane amount of chakra. Kisame is also fast enough to get away before those snakes tag him anyway.
the fight wouldn't last long once he goes into close quarters, which gives orochimaru time to plant a curse mark on him, rendering kisame immobile. hes fast enough to tag a tobi infused yamato, which is another speed feat i did fail to mention
Even if Orochimaru tag him with that (which would not happen but for the sake of the arguments let's say it does) those kind of attacks don't work on Kisame, he already proved to be immune against those kind of abillities
So if Orochimaru try to use this on him Kisame would just absord his chakra when Orochimaru try to use the chakra to put the mark on him.
so you completely ignore the snake and manda summons because you believe kisame will flood asap? odd, because manda is bigger then gamabunta, which can crush kisame when given the chance.
Again, Kisame can fly, Kisame can go underwater and Kisame can dodge Manda attacks or overwhelm him with the sharks waves.
??? orochimaru does this when he is near death, or needs a new body. this can stop him dead in his tracks if kisame wants to battle it.
Orochimaru dimmension is still a Genjutsu. And Samehada as I proved above can very likely snap Kisame out of it.
it does slice, as shown here.
Yeah slice. It doens't cut.
nope, but i like that attitude, but even so, i failed to mention more of his jutsus, like his charka sealing jutsu, which can seal charka of a person.
He is not fast or strong enough to manage to use that on Kisame , let alone to restrain him and put the sealing on him.
but even so, if pushed, orochimaru can allso resort to this, his hydra
Kisame use the thousands sharks against it +the dome and he use his Tailed beast form to absord the massive chakra of the hydra =Orochimaru defeat
Conclusion
Kisame is a lot faster in speed, combat speed and have better reflexes than Orochimaru
Kisame is far stronger
Kisame can counter everything Orochimaru have and his bad matchup for him
Kisame wins by drowing Orochimaru underwater and/or taking all his chakra.
@rikuyamaha: Yeah you are right 2 post for a nice CaV like this is rather short . A final post where each of us can give everything we have in a last counter argument would be better. So let's do 3 post each ! I am looking forward to this.
@kingantagonist: ok, a final conclusion for our post it is! Even if I lose the debate,this was a very enjoyable CaV not even gonna lie. But now! Im gonna get down to working on my final conclusion, so be ready.
this has been really fun for me tbh. i loved every counter my opponent thrown and his or her never give up attitude. but here is my final counter and final conclusion.
Experience
Feats>statement, and prodigy don't means he is stronger. Kisame is also an unique prodigy who have arguably [likely] the strongest Suiton jutsu in all Naruto. Hell, Kisame managed to become a beast and unlock an beast transformation without being a tailed beast.
you said in your previous that the sannin were far above any normal shinobi and that the sannin were above the swordsmen. and while i agree feats> statements, lore still should be shown in debates to what they did.
Raikage with V1 who was able to stop and restrain KCM Naruto could arguably kill Jiraiya before he tries really anything does this means that the Raikage is a greastest prodigy/genius than Jiraiya ?
the raikage is stronger then jiraiya and arguable a greater assets in battle then him. him being blitzed by a KCM naruto doenst help it much as it said naruto far surpassed jiraiya.
Onoki can destroy any of the sannin in 1vs1 does this means he is a greatest prodigy ? Orochimaru is an insane and unique scientist and jutsus creator this is why he is an unique prodigy , just like Tsunade with her medical jutsus.
he was a prodigy like sasuke was. his ingenious and his quick development allows orochimaru to be a prodigy. and bringing up A: someone who got blitzed by KCM and B: someone who could kill any akatsuki member doesn't back theses statements.
How him being "practically immortal" help your argument at all ?
immortality= longer life= more world and experience.
And we don't know that, we can't know in how many missions and battles Kisame have been, same for Orochimaru.
true, but due to orochimaru being born earlier then kisame and fighting more in a war then kisame, that gives more experience.
As far as we know they can have a comparable amont of fighting experience. But I agree, likely Orochimaru have fought more than Kisame in his life, but again that don't mean anything.
it does when it accounts to knowledge on how battles play out. a inexperienced kid will always lose to a experienced old man.
no, he just experimented on his body and several others during that time.
Yes, soooo ? We agree that he was not fighting and gaining experience when Kisame was ? And we know for a fact that the Akatsuki was already used by the Hidden Stone so Kisame was likely in pretty hards missions while Orochimaru was doing scientific things.
same with orochimaru , as in the databooks, it shows orochimaru completed a number of 1,468 total missions. far surpassing kisames mission to completion ratio.
Nobody eslse was like Hanzo. Hanzo was one of the strongest of that time even Pain said that he killed him because he was far weaker and rusty
does the pain thing matter? pain not only is stronger the the akatsuki as a whole, but killing a old and weakened hanzou isnt impressive as fighting him in his prime.
And the sannins LOST the fight against Hanzo they are only alive because Hanzo allowed them to survive out of respect.
due to their fighting prowess. even though they lost, no one has fought hanzo like they did.
Unlike Orochimaru Kisame can break sharingan genjutsu due to Samehada (it's arguable about Tsukyomi)
this means nothing, as it was never shown he could break out of genjutsu with samehada and the one orochimaru was hit with was tsukyomi.
we don't know if Itachi was with Susanoo etc at that time. So I wouldn't say as a fact that Kisame can win but I can surely say that Kisame would give him a much harder challenge than Orochimaru.
kisame doesn't have the speed, let alone the endurance to tank or see that he was a genjutsu, let alone knowing he is in tsukkomi like orochimaru was.
And before anyone lose their mind YES SAMEHEDA CAN VERY LIKELY BREAK GENJUTSU
that samehada reacting to charka. since it can react to charka doesn't mean it can break genjutsu.
The sword is alive and can feel emotions and act on his own will and we know for a fact that the sword can give her chakra to the user, why couldn't she break genjutsu ?
due to two reasons. one, the charka it gives is from the stolen charka it takes, and second, it never been shown that she can.
Orochimaru himself admitted that he can't beat Itachi in a fight 1vs1. He in fact stated that Itachi was clearly superior
as i said before, due to genjutsu. anyone with lack of genjutsu resistance would lose immediately to itachi in a 1v1, not because of orochimarus lack of strength.
Answered just above.
disproved answer above.
Counters about strength
Lol you know very well that is not a good argument. Because those high ranking shinobi just like Konoha nonames from Anbu are most than likely fodders. In fact almost everyone who is not named is fodder, Kid Kakashi was keeping up against an entire group of Anbu from Kiri and killing them in 1vs1 before Obito came. (Rin death scene)
true rip death scene, but it should not be ignored of the power. and as have shown with my first argument, there were guards and he had to take them down before proceeding.
Go back to my fodder point
just did.
Fair point. You are right filler are not allowed I made a mistake.
its fine, filler doesn't help cannon wise. unless were gonna count robot naruto lol.
Why wouldn't he be there for assassination ? He is a Kakashi lvl ninja and was know to be Orochimaru right-hand man for years
he was there for gathering details and not enough information on the matter other then he assassinated the kazekage can provide more evidence that kabuto was involved.
Orochimaru is arrogant and can be cocky but he is not stupid. He wouldn't attack the Kazekage and his guards by himself without any possible backup
true, but my statement above will provide at least some substantial wording into the matter.
Orochimaru could have sneaky killed with Kabuto help the guards when they where off-guard and then he rushed Rasa who was surprised ? Or Orochimaru could have rushed Rasa and stabbed him by surprise when he was off-guard, and then killed the guards by himself ? Y'know something like that.
these could happen, in which theses following scenarios would occur. 1: blitzing a rasa, which is incredibly impressive. 2: blitzing again. this correlates to speed which doesn't really belong in the strength category, but even so, off guard or not, killing said kazekage, a kage who controls SAND in a desert is impressive by its own right.
No. Kisame almost as soon as he woke up brook the Mokuton as you can see in the scan and unlike Kisame Kyubi Naruto was not seriously weakened and was not under a prison who was prepared when he was unconscious to have an strong pressure on him.
a good feat on kisames part, but still both of them broke out rather easily, with kyubi naruto breaking out due to amps. ill back away on this one, as now its kinda apparent that kisames prison break is a better feat then the naruto one.
Completely false and you know it. A nearly as good as his true form Edo Hashirama was the one who was brought back during the War Arc , this one is able of breaking Orochimaru control very very easily , Orochimaru was totaly unable to have a control on him even with a stronger Edo Tensei than the one he used against Hiruzen
they never broke control from the edo...orochimaru was giving them the free will to move like the others, as no edo reincarnated was able to break free from the control of the user, without the use of suiseis eye.
Tobirama himself stated that him and Hashirama edo where almost as strong as their prime in comparison with the last time when they where far weaker
while true, orochimaru was in fact giving them free will to move. as shown in the previous scan you posted.
The Edo Hokages who fought Hiruzen where leagues weakers than their primes versions.
even so, they were blood lusted and fighting with the intent to kill while hiruzen was fighting to figure out how to defeat said edo.
Cool, Hokages leagues weakers than their prime version bloodlusted.
yep, and why should it be ignored. even if they were far weaker, they were both matching a hiruzen who was able to push the nine tails away a few years prior with zero difficulty.
It's valid because what I said above, and because Hashirama is far stronger than any of them.
none of the kage broke free from said edo as i stated. the only edo that broke it was itachi, and that was sully used with koto.
Feats>Statement, and Hiruzen can't beat the Raikage or Onoki if you want to we can make another CaV , Old Hiruzen vs Raikage.
not gonna debate over that lol, but as i said, statements should be involved as well. and by using feats, pushing the nine tails out of konoha with little difficulty is far above most if not all things raikage has shown.
Again, leagues under their prime.
again, it should not matter as hiruzen was as well, and fighting the two strongest shinobis alive.
No. The last time Orochimaru saw Hiruzen it was 10 years ago, (2 years after Kyubi attack) and both Enma and Orochimaru stated that the Hiruzen from that period was far stronger than the one who fought Orochimaru.
i stated in my previous , oldness doesn't change the outcome of skill.
As I proved, this is false.
didn't disprove it, but i do see your standpoint.
Kisame did not only overpowered him, he literally crushed him when both matched strength , Kisame strenght was so much above Guy, that Guy was send deep down underwater when Kisame clashed against him
that....is defining overpowering.
I do. Jiraiya love Naruto like a son and Naruto was a freakin 12/13 years old child when that happened, no way in the world Jiraiya tried to hurt him.
jiraiya was still in a life or death situation, and due to his sealing jutsu, was able to help naruto. this doesnt mean jiraiya is stronger, just that he had the means to stop him/
Most of Orochimaru arsenal come from his snakes jutsus from what he saw, and when he fought Naruto Kyubi he could use many of them. He was absolutely fine and not severely weakened. And unlike Jiraiya Orochimaru tried to kill Naruto.
2 things are wrong with that, one, orochimaru was severely weakened with his arms being sealed. and 2: he was fighting a much more stronger and more dangerous naruto.
Kisame still need to be strong enough to absorb the impact with his swordhand and arm, without being overpowered by the said impact,
while true, it shown him absorbing it rather quickly to decrease said impact.
as we saw during Kisame vs KillerBee while Samehada can absorb many chakra from Bee she can't just stop all of it in an instant when Bee is charging.
true, in which the charge kisame was being overpowered for a time.
The cloack already give Bee a significant speed and strenght boost when Samehada absorbed the chakra.
point above.
Ok, good point. It is useless.
we should make a thread of which feat was better lmao.
Yeah sorry I forgot about this, this is so far the best strength feat you showed. But I don't think it outclass most of my Kisame feats. KCM Naruto/Naruto who became friend with Kyubi have not that much of strength feats (I don't remember any where he show a impressive amount of strenght or striking power), in fact he is more about speed and striking fast.
naruto has alot of crazy strength feats even before SO6P. let me show you.
the simply act of screaming caused a massive hole so big,it made everything around it in comparison small next to it. and if i might add, this was caused by naruto simply releasing a little smidgen of kuramas charka.
in half sage mode,naruto was able to lift a giant frog statue over his head,and even to his surprise, was clearly happy over on how powerful this form was.
naruto was able in his newly formed perfect sage mode to chunk a giant rhino out of the village with no effort.
the village by itself is rather large might i add, so to throw something of that size and cailber would take a substantial amount of force to do. and naruto just scuffs this off like it didn't happen. He didn't even budge despite the fact that the ground around him was shattered. Which means, that Naruto must have tossed it many Miles away.
and lets not froget when naruto in 8 tails was able to tear out of a chibaku tensei.
theses are some from my BSM naruto cav i did but theses relevate to strength on a drastic level, and theses are all weaker versions of naruto
Counters on speed & reflexes/reaction feats
??????? How does that help Orochimaru case here ?
that orochimaru scales higher then the edo hiruzen.
When Guy used the 6 gate Kisame was able of reacting to an extrent, When Guy jumped from the water to hit him Kisame managed to jump in the airs before he could ,while Guy was very easily able to follow him that show Kisame can at very least react against 6 gate instant speed
6 gates does not grant instant speed...and kisame could not react to him to him ,he was overwhelmed.
Despite Guy being able to blitz him in a speed contest , Kisame was able to try to hit him with Samehada when they where in the middle of the jump, which means he managed to react and try to defend himself before Guy could beat him with his kick, and even then Kisame was able to ALMOST hit Guy, as you can clearly see in the scan Kisame attack almost match Guy speed for a very short time
the scans you shown was him just being overwhelmed. . . well anyway, its still a good feat, but no where close to instant speed like you implied.
Because he looked behind him ?
yeah, thereby not making it a blind point.
Yeah right about Tenten and right about the clones, but still it show how fast and effectively Kisame can use his clones. Which he could use against Orochimaru and trap him in a Water Prison when Orochimaru try to sneaky attack him.
while a very plausible situation, orochimaru is much more flexible and more creative then the likes of guy or rock lee, who solely focus on close quarters combat. same with neji. orochimaru will most likely, like he does, stick to mid to long range so kisame cant tag him.
Kisame is able to react without troubles against Bee base speed. And like I already proved he can also react against Killer B V1 speed which is much much faster and Kisame have no troubles fighting back against this kind of super fast opponent like Bee who by feats is much faster than Orochimaru. Base Bee is fast enough to react and fight in a strenght contest V2 Raikage, when both are rushing against each other.
while i'll say bee is fast, he was not matching him in speed, the only time he was was when he trapped bee in water. other then that, kisame was getting overwhelmed.
Kisame who can react from everything Bee tries in base=>/<Base Killer Bee in general speed.
ok.
Kisame who can stop without troubles any kind of attack from Bee even when Bee attack from behind and even when Bee use V1 = Kisame>Killer Bee in combat speed reflexes, which means Kisame>Bee>>Orochimaru by feats.
mhhh, that is wrong for two reasons. if we go by feats, Orochimaru is about as fast as KCM naruto or higher due to reacting and stopping the god tree before it could reach the ground. the god tree being able to blitz BSM naruto easily and orochimaru being able to intercept it.
Orochimaru saw Naruto Kyubi preparing the Bijuu bomb before he used it and he runned far away from it and was already prepared to counter it .
he saw it yes, but he didnt set down any jutsus until it was allready half way towards him.
While quite impressive it's not on the lvl of the Kisame feats I showed. You don't debunked my point about Killer Bee V1 speed being much faster than Four tails Naruto speed . Because you know this is true.
yeah, i didnt need to cause its irrelevant for four tails, but not when it comes to the god tree, which blitzed a much faster naruto.
Kisame speed, speed reaction and reflexes and combat speed>>Orochimaru.
false, but i love the spirit.
Endurance & Durability
Well he didn't lose an arm or was with scars or anything, but yeah he was sracthed in the whole body and seriously weakened true.
coolio, glad we agree.
Agreed, good point.
cool
Good thing Samehada is with him when he fight Orochimaru ins't it ?
lol very much, samehada is gonna give orochimaru a hard time.
I already debunked this on the speed argument above.
you debunked my KCM4 naruto feat, not my god tree one where it blitzed a higher form naruto.
We know for a fact that Orochimaru took a new body before meeting Sasuke in his hideout and this new body lasted for quite a time. As for Kisame stamina he was not without stamina in the scan you showed, he was just very badly hurt.
that is very false, because its clearly shown that he still had his arms restricted by the seal.
the markings on his arms correlate to his sealed arms.
Counters about Jutsus
I already proved above that Kisame know Orochimaru reputation and don't understimate him going by the said reputation.
to where did you say that?
Furthermore Orochimaru was a former member of the Akatsuki and is said to be dangerous by Pain himself AND ITACHI, Kisame partner, Kisame have no reasons in the world to hold back against Orochimaru or to allow him to show his jutsu arsenal and abilities
while true, this is kisame we are talking about, the man who fought the eight gates formation, even while having knowledge on might guy, with his samehada.
. He won't try to play with him like he did with Guy, he would most likely go all out and tries to kill him right away.
his showings on what he does doesnt prove that.
Furthermore Orochimaru won't be fast enough to do anything before Kisame turn the battlefied into water, V1 Killer Bee was unable to react against it and was traped by it without being able to do anything in reaction.
i allready proven why he would be fast enough to evade, even so, turning the battlefield into water wont really be a problem, as orochimaru can still tag him while under.
Yes. He was able to do this when Sasuke used his power to fight Itachi because Sasuke literally ABSORBED Orochimaru, he wans't show to be able to come back by himself.
go to the curse mark on The jounin.
Same when he ressurected he only came back to "life" because Sasuke brough him back. He can't come back by himself. So if Kisame sharks eat him he can't come back= Kisame wins.
i agree on if the sharks eat him, but you told me to provide a feat of that, in which i did, now your changing the question based on the feats i have shown, but either way, he wont be hit by the sharks for him to die.
Keep in mind that Orochimaru must escape the water dome BEFORE Kisame in his Tailed beast form body him like he did against Bee. When we look at Kisame Beast form speed and how he is strong underwater when Orochimaru don't know shi** how to fight underwater , I see no reason to think that Orochimaru can escape.
i see no reason as of why kisame floods immedaly in character. and Lol at kisame automatically using his strongest form first hand. kisame only floods and uses that form as a final act, in which the battle will be over before that with orochimaru tagging him with a curse mark.
Even if Orochimaru manage to do that (which I highly doubt) and escape from Kisame giant water dome, Kisame can still turn the battlefield in a small lake like he did against Team Guy, and then Orochimaru would be forced to fight on it, and Kisame can pressure him and push him underwater like he did against Guy.
the lake is more plausible, but it wont work much considering A: he can blow it away via wind style or B: simply move away from it until hes out of it.
He can also use his Tailed Beast form which turn him in a much faster and stronger foe when he is on water/underwater, with it he can drag Orochimaru underwater and then he can body Orochimaru and stole his chakra when they are in close combat underwater. He did this exact same thing against Killer Bee , the difference here it's the fact that unlike Octopus, snakes are not good to fight underwater and Orochimaru is far from having as much chakra as Killer Bee.
while i agree with the snakes not being good underwater, there are plenty of snakes that can kill sharks with poison, in which orochimarus arsenal has shown to be capable of doing.
He have no feats which would allow him to do that. Anyway Kisame would have stole all his chakra before he tries it.
faster, more durable will not be stolen. and its plausible that he can due to idk, going into the ground.
I proved Kisame to be fast and skilled and strong enough to react even if Orochimaru take advantage with a sneaky attack.
you didn't prove he was faster, only that he had orochimarus travel speed with reaction speed. orochimaru has superior combat and reaction speed via scaling and the god tree.
I proved Kisame to be way faster. Anyway the sharks are way bigger, just look at their sizes in my scan where they eat Kisame. And Kisame can't run out chakra
kisame CAN run out of charka via his own stamina running low, to say he cant is ridiculous.
, let alone with Samehada. Furthermore the shark wave could just crush the snakes with raw power given how massive the wave is in comparison with the snakes jutsu you showed.
just cause something is big compared to the other, does not equal into AP or DC. i will say kisames sharks> orochimarus snakes, but due to sheer numbers on orochimarus side, it'll turn into snakes> sharks.
Kisame can fly using Water Shark missile technique
was that shown in the manga, cause i dont remember him fly cannon wise.
and get away from Orochimaru range, and when he is in the airs he can spam jutsus to crush Orochimaru
you know while he is in the air like to propose, orochimaru can easily pierce him with his sword
Against Orochimaru which he doesn't underestimate and know how dangerous he is , he will.
as i shown via the might guy statement, he wont start off with it
Already answered and countered above.
didnt counter the IC kisame vs might guy statement.
Kisame can fly.
gets pierced via blade
Kisame can go underwater
does not flood in start IC
, Kisame can crush those snakes with his shark waves which he can spam because unlike Orochimaru he have a insane amount of chakra.
i would very much like to disagree on orochimarus charka supply. he has enough to casually whip out a monster summon, while heavily nerfed, can hold onto the god tree for a extended period of time and not have his charka drained, etc etc.
Kisame is also fast enough to get away before those snakes tag him anyway.
go back to my speed feats for orochimaru.
Even if Orochimaru tag him with that (which would not happen but for the sake of the arguments let's say it does) those kind of attacks don't work on Kisame, he already proved to be immune against those kind of abillities
that is ninjutsu, not senjutsu, which is a applicant of the curse mark. kisame has zero resistance of absorbing or tanking any senjutsu attacks.
So if Orochimaru try to use this on him Kisame would just absord his chakra when Orochimaru try to use the chakra to put the mark on him.
as i shown, its senjutsu, not ninjutsu, in which kisame cant asorb.
Again, Kisame can fly, Kisame can go underwater and Kisame can dodge Manda attacks or overwhelm him with the sharks waves.
go back to my previous statements on what you just said.
Orochimaru dimmension is still a Genjutsu. And Samehada as I proved above can very likely snap Kisame out of it.
his samehada has not shown to do that.
Yeah slice. It doens't cut.
??????? you know slicing is the same thing as cutting yeah?
He is not fast or strong enough to manage to use that on Kisame , let alone to restrain him and put the sealing on him.
i allready proven orochimaru is faster, and kisame as zero feats of resisting a sealing jutsu.
Kisame use the thousands sharks against it +the dome and he use his Tailed beast form to absord the massive chakra of the hydra =Orochimaru defeat
again, as i said, kisame doesn't start with thoses as he allways gos into close range combat via samehada. with that, a curse mark, genjutsu, asorbison, paralyzation via snakes and his sword will land orochimaru the win.
Conclusion
Kisame is a lot faster in speed, combat speed and have better reflexes than Orochimaru
i have shown why he is slower.
Kisame is far stronger
i agree, he is stronger, but not my much.
Kisame can counter everything Orochimaru have and his bad matchup for him
i have shown several things kisame cant counter.
Kisame wins by drowing Orochimaru underwater and/or taking all his chakra.
orochimaru wins via curse mark and decap.
final conclusion.
this was extremely fun to do, but even so.
my opponent has failed to debunk orochimaru being faster
failed to debunk his jutsus that can harm him.
i have shown countless ways orochimaru can win while my opponent shown about two or three.
this has been really fun for me tbh. i loved every counter my opponent thrown and his or her never give up attitude. but here is my final counter and final conclusion.
Experience
Feats>statement, and prodigy don't means he is stronger. Kisame is also an unique prodigy who have arguably [likely] the strongest Suiton jutsu in all Naruto. Hell, Kisame managed to become a beast and unlock an beast transformation without being a tailed beast.
you said in your previous that the sannin were far above any normal shinobi and that the sannin were above the swordsmen. and while i agree feats> statements, lore still should be shown in debates to what they did.
Raikage with V1 who was able to stop and restrain KCM Naruto could arguably kill Jiraiya before he tries really anything does this means that the Raikage is a greastest prodigy/genius than Jiraiya ?
the raikage is stronger then jiraiya and arguable a greater assets in battle then him. him being blitzed by a KCM naruto doenst help it much as it said naruto far surpassed jiraiya.
Onoki can destroy any of the sannin in 1vs1 does this means he is a greatest prodigy ? Orochimaru is an insane and unique scientist and jutsus creator this is why he is an unique prodigy , just like Tsunade with her medical jutsus.
he was a prodigy like sasuke was. his ingenious and his quick development allows orochimaru to be a prodigy. and bringing up A: someone who got blitzed by KCM and B: someone who could kill any akatsuki member doesn't back theses statements.
How him being "practically immortal" help your argument at all ?
immortality= longer life= more world and experience.
And we don't know that, we can't know in how many missions and battles Kisame have been, same for Orochimaru.
true, but due to orochimaru being born earlier then kisame and fighting more in a war then kisame, that gives more experience.
As far as we know they can have a comparable amont of fighting experience. But I agree, likely Orochimaru have fought more than Kisame in his life, but again that don't mean anything.
it does when it accounts to knowledge on how battles play out. a inexperienced kid will always lose to a experienced old man.
no, he just experimented on his body and several others during that time.
Yes, soooo ? We agree that he was not fighting and gaining experience when Kisame was ? And we know for a fact that the Akatsuki was already used by the Hidden Stone so Kisame was likely in pretty hards missions while Orochimaru was doing scientific things.
same with orochimaru , as in the databooks, it shows orochimaru completed a number of 1,468 total missions. far surpassing kisames mission to completion ratio.
Nobody eslse was like Hanzo. Hanzo was one of the strongest of that time even Pain said that he killed him because he was far weaker and rusty
does the pain thing matter? pain not only is stronger the the akatsuki as a whole, but killing a old and weakened hanzou isnt impressive as fighting him in his prime.
And the sannins LOST the fight against Hanzo they are only alive because Hanzo allowed them to survive out of respect.
due to their fighting prowess. even though they lost, no one has fought hanzo like they did.
Unlike Orochimaru Kisame can break sharingan genjutsu due to Samehada (it's arguable about Tsukyomi)
this means nothing, as it was never shown he could break out of genjutsu with samehada and the one orochimaru was hit with was tsukyomi.
we don't know if Itachi was with Susanoo etc at that time. So I wouldn't say as a fact that Kisame can win but I can surely say that Kisame would give him a much harder challenge than Orochimaru.
kisame doesn't have the speed, let alone the endurance to tank or see that he was a genjutsu, let alone knowing he is in tsukkomi like orochimaru was.
And before anyone lose their mind YES SAMEHEDA CAN VERY LIKELY BREAK GENJUTSU
that samehada reacting to charka. since it can react to charka doesn't mean it can break genjutsu.
The sword is alive and can feel emotions and act on his own will and we know for a fact that the sword can give her chakra to the user, why couldn't she break genjutsu ?
due to two reasons. one, the charka it gives is from the stolen charka it takes, and second, it never been shown that she can.
Orochimaru himself admitted that he can't beat Itachi in a fight 1vs1. He in fact stated that Itachi was clearly superior
as i said before, due to genjutsu. anyone with lack of genjutsu resistance would lose immediately to itachi in a 1v1, not because of orochimarus lack of strength.
Answered just above.
disproved answer above.
Counters about strength
Lol you know very well that is not a good argument. Because those high ranking shinobi just like Konoha nonames from Anbu are most than likely fodders. In fact almost everyone who is not named is fodder, Kid Kakashi was keeping up against an entire group of Anbu from Kiri and killing them in 1vs1 before Obito came. (Rin death scene)
true rip death scene, but it should not be ignored of the power. and as have shown with my first argument, there were guards and he had to take them down before proceeding.
Go back to my fodder point
just did.
Fair point. You are right filler are not allowed I made a mistake.
its fine, filler doesn't help cannon wise. unless were gonna count robot naruto lol.
Why wouldn't he be there for assassination ? He is a Kakashi lvl ninja and was know to be Orochimaru right-hand man for years
he was there for gathering details and not enough information on the matter other then he assassinated the kazekage can provide more evidence that kabuto was involved.
Orochimaru is arrogant and can be cocky but he is not stupid. He wouldn't attack the Kazekage and his guards by himself without any possible backup
true, but my statement above will provide at least some substantial wording into the matter.
Orochimaru could have sneaky killed with Kabuto help the guards when they where off-guard and then he rushed Rasa who was surprised ? Or Orochimaru could have rushed Rasa and stabbed him by surprise when he was off-guard, and then killed the guards by himself ? Y'know something like that.
these could happen, in which theses following scenarios would occur. 1: blitzing a rasa, which is incredibly impressive. 2: blitzing again. this correlates to speed which doesn't really belong in the strength category, but even so, off guard or not, killing said kazekage, a kage who controls SAND in a desert is impressive by its own right.
No. Kisame almost as soon as he woke up brook the Mokuton as you can see in the scan and unlike Kisame Kyubi Naruto was not seriously weakened and was not under a prison who was prepared when he was unconscious to have an strong pressure on him.
a good feat on kisames part, but still both of them broke out rather easily, with kyubi naruto breaking out due to amps. ill back away on this one, as now its kinda apparent that kisames prison break is a better feat then the naruto one.
Completely false and you know it. A nearly as good as his true form Edo Hashirama was the one who was brought back during the War Arc , this one is able of breaking Orochimaru control very very easily , Orochimaru was totaly unable to have a control on him even with a stronger Edo Tensei than the one he used against Hiruzen
they never broke control from the edo...orochimaru was giving them the free will to move like the others, as no edo reincarnated was able to break free from the control of the user, without the use of suiseis eye.
Tobirama himself stated that him and Hashirama edo where almost as strong as their prime in comparison with the last time when they where far weaker
while true, orochimaru was in fact giving them free will to move. as shown in the previous scan you posted.
The Edo Hokages who fought Hiruzen where leagues weakers than their primes versions.
even so, they were blood lusted and fighting with the intent to kill while hiruzen was fighting to figure out how to defeat said edo.
Cool, Hokages leagues weakers than their prime version bloodlusted.
yep, and why should it be ignored. even if they were far weaker, they were both matching a hiruzen who was able to push the nine tails away a few years prior with zero difficulty.
It's valid because what I said above, and because Hashirama is far stronger than any of them.
none of the kage broke free from said edo as i stated. the only edo that broke it was itachi, and that was sully used with koto.
Feats>Statement, and Hiruzen can't beat the Raikage or Onoki if you want to we can make another CaV , Old Hiruzen vs Raikage.
not gonna debate over that lol, but as i said, statements should be involved as well. and by using feats, pushing the nine tails out of konoha with little difficulty is far above most if not all things raikage has shown.
Again, leagues under their prime.
again, it should not matter as hiruzen was as well, and fighting the two strongest shinobis alive.
No. The last time Orochimaru saw Hiruzen it was 10 years ago, (2 years after Kyubi attack) and both Enma and Orochimaru stated that the Hiruzen from that period was far stronger than the one who fought Orochimaru.
i stated in my previous , oldness doesn't change the outcome of skill.
As I proved, this is false.
didn't disprove it, but i do see your standpoint.
Kisame did not only overpowered him, he literally crushed him when both matched strength , Kisame strenght was so much above Guy, that Guy was send deep down underwater when Kisame clashed against him
that....is defining overpowering.
I do. Jiraiya love Naruto like a son and Naruto was a freakin 12/13 years old child when that happened, no way in the world Jiraiya tried to hurt him.
jiraiya was still in a life or death situation, and due to his sealing jutsu, was able to help naruto. this doesnt mean jiraiya is stronger, just that he had the means to stop him/
Most of Orochimaru arsenal come from his snakes jutsus from what he saw, and when he fought Naruto Kyubi he could use many of them. He was absolutely fine and not severely weakened. And unlike Jiraiya Orochimaru tried to kill Naruto.
2 things are wrong with that, one, orochimaru was severely weakened with his arms being sealed. and 2: he was fighting a much more stronger and more dangerous naruto.
Kisame still need to be strong enough to absorb the impact with his swordhand and arm, without being overpowered by the said impact,
while true, it shown him absorbing it rather quickly to decrease said impact.
as we saw during Kisame vs KillerBee while Samehada can absorb many chakra from Bee she can't just stop all of it in an instant when Bee is charging.
true, in which the charge kisame was being overpowered for a time.
The cloack already give Bee a significant speed and strenght boost when Samehada absorbed the chakra.
point above.
Ok, good point. It is useless.
we should make a thread of which feat was better lmao.
Yeah sorry I forgot about this, this is so far the best strength feat you showed. But I don't think it outclass most of my Kisame feats. KCM Naruto/Naruto who became friend with Kyubi have not that much of strength feats (I don't remember any where he show a impressive amount of strenght or striking power), in fact he is more about speed and striking fast.
naruto has alot of crazy strength feats even before SO6P. let me show you.
the simply act of screaming caused a massive hole so big,it made everything around it in comparison small next to it. and if i might add, this was caused by naruto simply releasing a little smidgen of kuramas charka.
in half sage mode,naruto was able to lift a giant frog statue over his head,and even to his surprise, was clearly happy over on how powerful this form was.
naruto was able in his newly formed perfect sage mode to chunk a giant rhino out of the village with no effort.
the village by itself is rather large might i add, so to throw something of that size and cailber would take a substantial amount of force to do. and naruto just scuffs this off like it didn't happen. He didn't even budge despite the fact that the ground around him was shattered. Which means, that Naruto must have tossed it many Miles away.
and lets not froget when naruto in 8 tails was able to tear out of a chibaku tensei.
theses are some from my BSM naruto cav i did but theses relevate to strength on a drastic level, and theses are all weaker versions of naruto
Counters on speed & reflexes/reaction feats
??????? How does that help Orochimaru case here ?
that orochimaru scales higher then the edo hiruzen.
When Guy used the 6 gate Kisame was able of reacting to an extrent, When Guy jumped from the water to hit him Kisame managed to jump in the airs before he could ,while Guy was very easily able to follow him that show Kisame can at very least react against 6 gate instant speed
6 gates does not grant instant speed...and kisame could not react to him to him ,he was overwhelmed.
Despite Guy being able to blitz him in a speed contest , Kisame was able to try to hit him with Samehada when they where in the middle of the jump, which means he managed to react and try to defend himself before Guy could beat him with his kick, and even then Kisame was able to ALMOST hit Guy, as you can clearly see in the scan Kisame attack almost match Guy speed for a very short time
the scans you shown was him just being overwhelmed. . . well anyway, its still a good feat, but no where close to instant speed like you implied.
Because he looked behind him ?
yeah, thereby not making it a blind point.
Yeah right about Tenten and right about the clones, but still it show how fast and effectively Kisame can use his clones. Which he could use against Orochimaru and trap him in a Water Prison when Orochimaru try to sneaky attack him.
while a very plausible situation, orochimaru is much more flexible and more creative then the likes of guy or rock lee, who solely focus on close quarters combat. same with neji. orochimaru will most likely, like he does, stick to mid to long range so kisame cant tag him.
Kisame is able to react without troubles against Bee base speed. And like I already proved he can also react against Killer B V1 speed which is much much faster and Kisame have no troubles fighting back against this kind of super fast opponent like Bee who by feats is much faster than Orochimaru. Base Bee is fast enough to react and fight in a strenght contest V2 Raikage, when both are rushing against each other.
while i'll say bee is fast, he was not matching him in speed, the only time he was was when he trapped bee in water. other then that, kisame was getting overwhelmed.
Kisame who can react from everything Bee tries in base=>/<Base Killer Bee in general speed.
ok.
Kisame who can stop without troubles any kind of attack from Bee even when Bee attack from behind and even when Bee use V1 = Kisame>Killer Bee in combat speed reflexes, which means Kisame>Bee>>Orochimaru by feats.
mhhh, that is wrong for two reasons. if we go by feats, Orochimaru is about as fast as KCM naruto or higher due to reacting and stopping the god tree before it could reach the ground. the god tree being able to blitz BSM naruto easily and orochimaru being able to intercept it.
Orochimaru saw Naruto Kyubi preparing the Bijuu bomb before he used it and he runned far away from it and was already prepared to counter it .
he saw it yes, but he didnt set down any jutsus until it was allready half way towards him.
While quite impressive it's not on the lvl of the Kisame feats I showed. You don't debunked my point about Killer Bee V1 speed being much faster than Four tails Naruto speed . Because you know this is true.
yeah, i didnt need to cause its irrelevant for four tails, but not when it comes to the god tree, which blitzed a much faster naruto.
Kisame speed, speed reaction and reflexes and combat speed>>Orochimaru.
false, but i love the spirit.
Endurance & Durability
Well he didn't lose an arm or was with scars or anything, but yeah he was sracthed in the whole body and seriously weakened true.
coolio, glad we agree.
Agreed, good point.
cool
Good thing Samehada is with him when he fight Orochimaru ins't it ?
lol very much, samehada is gonna give orochimaru a hard time.
I already debunked this on the speed argument above.
you debunked my KCM4 naruto feat, not my god tree one where it blitzed a higher form naruto.
We know for a fact that Orochimaru took a new body before meeting Sasuke in his hideout and this new body lasted for quite a time. As for Kisame stamina he was not without stamina in the scan you showed, he was just very badly hurt.
that is very false, because its clearly shown that he still had his arms restricted by the seal.
the markings on his arms correlate to his sealed arms.
Counters about Jutsus
I already proved above that Kisame know Orochimaru reputation and don't understimate him going by the said reputation.
to where did you say that?
Furthermore Orochimaru was a former member of the Akatsuki and is said to be dangerous by Pain himself AND ITACHI, Kisame partner, Kisame have no reasons in the world to hold back against Orochimaru or to allow him to show his jutsu arsenal and abilities
while true, this is kisame we are talking about, the man who fought the eight gates formation, even while having knowledge on might guy, with his samehada.
. He won't try to play with him like he did with Guy, he would most likely go all out and tries to kill him right away.
his showings on what he does doesnt prove that.
Furthermore Orochimaru won't be fast enough to do anything before Kisame turn the battlefied into water, V1 Killer Bee was unable to react against it and was traped by it without being able to do anything in reaction.
i allready proven why he would be fast enough to evade, even so, turning the battlefield into water wont really be a problem, as orochimaru can still tag him while under.
Yes. He was able to do this when Sasuke used his power to fight Itachi because Sasuke literally ABSORBED Orochimaru, he wans't show to be able to come back by himself.
go to the curse mark on The jounin.
Same when he ressurected he only came back to "life" because Sasuke brough him back. He can't come back by himself. So if Kisame sharks eat him he can't come back= Kisame wins.
i agree on if the sharks eat him, but you told me to provide a feat of that, in which i did, now your changing the question based on the feats i have shown, but either way, he wont be hit by the sharks for him to die.
Keep in mind that Orochimaru must escape the water dome BEFORE Kisame in his Tailed beast form body him like he did against Bee. When we look at Kisame Beast form speed and how he is strong underwater when Orochimaru don't know shi** how to fight underwater , I see no reason to think that Orochimaru can escape.
i see no reason as of why kisame floods immedaly in character. and Lol at kisame automatically using his strongest form first hand. kisame only floods and uses that form as a final act, in which the battle will be over before that with orochimaru tagging him with a curse mark.
Even if Orochimaru manage to do that (which I highly doubt) and escape from Kisame giant water dome, Kisame can still turn the battlefield in a small lake like he did against Team Guy, and then Orochimaru would be forced to fight on it, and Kisame can pressure him and push him underwater like he did against Guy.
the lake is more plausible, but it wont work much considering A: he can blow it away via wind style or B: simply move away from it until hes out of it.
He can also use his Tailed Beast form which turn him in a much faster and stronger foe when he is on water/underwater, with it he can drag Orochimaru underwater and then he can body Orochimaru and stole his chakra when they are in close combat underwater. He did this exact same thing against Killer Bee , the difference here it's the fact that unlike Octopus, snakes are not good to fight underwater and Orochimaru is far from having as much chakra as Killer Bee.
while i agree with the snakes not being good underwater, there are plenty of snakes that can kill sharks with poison, in which orochimarus arsenal has shown to be capable of doing.
He have no feats which would allow him to do that. Anyway Kisame would have stole all his chakra before he tries it.
faster, more durable will not be stolen. and its plausible that he can due to idk, going into the ground.
I proved Kisame to be fast and skilled and strong enough to react even if Orochimaru take advantage with a sneaky attack.
you didn't prove he was faster, only that he had orochimarus travel speed with reaction speed. orochimaru has superior combat and reaction speed via scaling and the god tree.
I proved Kisame to be way faster. Anyway the sharks are way bigger, just look at their sizes in my scan where they eat Kisame. And Kisame can't run out chakra
kisame CAN run out of charka via his own stamina running low, to say he cant is ridiculous.
, let alone with Samehada. Furthermore the shark wave could just crush the snakes with raw power given how massive the wave is in comparison with the snakes jutsu you showed.
just cause something is big compared to the other, does not equal into AP or DC. i will say kisames sharks> orochimarus snakes, but due to sheer numbers on orochimarus side, it'll turn into snakes> sharks.
Kisame can fly using Water Shark missile technique
was that shown in the manga, cause i dont remember him fly cannon wise.
and get away from Orochimaru range, and when he is in the airs he can spam jutsus to crush Orochimaru
you know while he is in the air like to propose, orochimaru can easily pierce him with his sword
Against Orochimaru which he doesn't underestimate and know how dangerous he is , he will.
as i shown via the might guy statement, he wont start off with it
Already answered and countered above.
didnt counter the IC kisame vs might guy statement.
Kisame can fly.
gets pierced via blade
Kisame can go underwater
does not flood in start IC
, Kisame can crush those snakes with his shark waves which he can spam because unlike Orochimaru he have a insane amount of chakra.
i would very much like to disagree on orochimarus charka supply. he has enough to casually whip out a monster summon, while heavily nerfed, can hold onto the god tree for a extended period of time and not have his charka drained, etc etc.
Kisame is also fast enough to get away before those snakes tag him anyway.
go back to my speed feats for orochimaru.
Even if Orochimaru tag him with that (which would not happen but for the sake of the arguments let's say it does) those kind of attacks don't work on Kisame, he already proved to be immune against those kind of abillities
that is ninjutsu, not senjutsu, which is a applicant of the curse mark. kisame has zero resistance of absorbing or tanking any senjutsu attacks.
So if Orochimaru try to use this on him Kisame would just absord his chakra when Orochimaru try to use the chakra to put the mark on him.
as i shown, its senjutsu, not ninjutsu, in which kisame cant asorb.
Again, Kisame can fly, Kisame can go underwater and Kisame can dodge Manda attacks or overwhelm him with the sharks waves.
go back to my previous statements on what you just said.
Orochimaru dimmension is still a Genjutsu. And Samehada as I proved above can very likely snap Kisame out of it.
his samehada has not shown to do that.
Yeah slice. It doens't cut.
??????? you know slicing is the same thing as cutting yeah?
He is not fast or strong enough to manage to use that on Kisame , let alone to restrain him and put the sealing on him.
i allready proven orochimaru is faster, and kisame as zero feats of resisting a sealing jutsu.
Kisame use the thousands sharks against it +the dome and he use his Tailed beast form to absord the massive chakra of the hydra =Orochimaru defeat
again, as i said, kisame doesn't start with thoses as he allways gos into close range combat via samehada. with that, a curse mark, genjutsu, asorbison, paralyzation via snakes and his sword will land orochimaru the win.
Conclusion
Kisame is a lot faster in speed, combat speed and have better reflexes than Orochimaru
i have shown why he is slower.
Kisame is far stronger
i agree, he is stronger, but not my much.
Kisame can counter everything Orochimaru have and his bad matchup for him
i have shown several things kisame cant counter.
Kisame wins by drowing Orochimaru underwater and/or taking all his chakra.
orochimaru wins via curse mark and decap.
final conclusion.
this was extremely fun to do, but even so.
my opponent has failed to debunk orochimaru being faster
failed to debunk his jutsus that can harm him.
i have shown countless ways orochimaru can win while my opponent shown about two or three.
@rikuyamaha Put up a good fight and that was really a nice debate, but now I think it's more than time to end this once and for all. Ready boys ?
Final counters about experience
you said in your previous that the sannin were far above any normal shinobi and that the sannin were above the swordsmen. and while i agree feats> statements, lore still should be shown in debates to what they did.
Yes in reputation they are this is true. But reputation and strenght are not the same thing, Sasori have less reputation in the ninja world than Kakashi part 1 , but he would surely murder Kakashi part 1 in 1vs1.
the raikage is stronger then jiraiya and arguable a greater assets in battle then him. him being blitzed by a KCM naruto doenst help it much as it said naruto far surpassed jiraiya.
That do not contradict my point.
he was a prodigy like sasuke was. his ingenious and his quick development allows orochimaru to be a prodigy. and bringing up A: someone who got blitzed by KCM and B: someone who could kill any akatsuki member doesn't back theses statements.
Yeah ? Orochimaru is a prodigy but he was far under sasuke as he himself admitted. I don't see your point
immortality= longer life= more world and experience.
At that point in Naruto ship Orochimaru don't reached true immortality yet (still need new body etc) and he was around 50 years old just like Jiraiya and Tsunade, so he don't have more experience because of his immortalities jutsus
true, but due to orochimaru being born earlier then kisame and fighting more in a war then kisame, that gives more experience.
As I proved with Orochimaru and Itachi point, and Kakuzu/Naruto point more experience don't mean always the wins.
it does when it accounts to knowledge on how battles play out. a inexperienced kid will always lose to a experienced old man.
How did Pain beat Hanzo then ? How did Itachi beat Orochimaru then ? How did Orochimaru beat Hiruzen then ? How did Pain beat Jiraiya then ? Ah I know ! Because experience don't means power.
same with orochimaru , as in the databooks, it shows orochimaru completed a number of 1,468 total missions. far surpassing kisames mission to completion ratio.
As I said Orochimaru having more experience don't give him the win here. We don't know in how many missions Kisame have been anyway.
does the pain thing matter? pain not only is stronger the the akatsuki as a whole, but killing a old and weakened hanzou isnt impressive as fighting him in his prime.
No he is not, and how does this contradict my statement anyway ?
due to their fighting prowess. even though they lost, no one has fought hanzo like they did.
That do not contradict my point.
this means nothing, as it was never shown he could break out of genjutsu with samehada and the one orochimaru was hit with was tsukyomi.
Because Kisame was never caught under a Genjutsu. Samehada is alive and can help Kisame without him asking it, they are in so perfect bond that he can transform himself with the sword. Samehada can give the chakra she have inside her to Kisame as I proved, and this is how you break a genjutsu.
kisame doesn't have the speed, let alone the endurance to tank or see that he was a genjutsu, let alone knowing he is in tsukkomi like orochimaru was.
Why ? I already proved with my mind control breaking feat , that what you just stated is false. But as I said their still a doubt about Tsukyomi so I woun't state anything as a fact.
that samehada reacting to charka. since it can react to charka doesn't mean it can break genjutsu.
Already answered.
due to two reasons. one, the charka it gives is from the stolen charka it takes, and second, it never been shown that she can.
Samehada can have chakra reserve inside her. Why can't she ? That would be logic for Kisame to not use all the chakra he stole with the sword without reason. But I agree their still a doubt.
as i said before, due to genjutsu. anyone with lack of genjutsu resistance would lose immediately to itachi in a 1v1, not because of orochimarus lack of strength.
Answered above.
Final counters about strength
true rip death scene, but it should not be ignored of the power. and as have shown with my first argument, there were guards and he had to take them down before proceeding.
As I explained Kabuto could and would have likely helped.
its fine, filler doesn't help cannon wise. unless were gonna count robot naruto lol.
Lol, that one robot story was ridiculous asf
he was there for gathering details and not enough information on the matter other then he assassinated the kazekage can provide more evidence that kabuto was involved.
I already talked about that. We can't know FOR SURE but it's very likely that Kabuto was with Orochimaru
true, but my statement above will provide at least some substantial wording into the matter.
ok.
blitzing a rasa, which is incredibly impressive
Not when it was a sneaky and surprise attack ,and anyway this have nothing to do with strenght.
blitzing again. this correlates to speed which doesn't really belong in the strength category
Yeah it doens't belong at all lol.
, but even so, off guard or not, killing said kazekage, a kage who controls SAND in a desert is impressive by its own right.
Yes, but again this have nothing to do with strenght feats.
a good feat on kisames part, but still both of them broke out rather easily, with kyubi naruto breaking out due to amps. ill back away on this one, as now its kinda apparent that kisames prison break is a better feat then the naruto one.
Glad we agree.
they never broke control from the edo..orochimaru was giving them the free will to move like the others, as no edo reincarnated was able to break free from the control of the user, without the use of suiseis eye.
Orochimaru disagree with you. Tobirama dind't break control, but Hashirama did.
while true, orochimaru was in fact giving them free will to move. as shown in the previous scan you posted.
You don't understand the scan then.
even so, they were blood lusted and fighting with the intent to kill while hiruzen was fighting to figure out how to defeat said edo.
This doens't change my point. Both of them are leagues weakers than the other edo version.
yep, and why should it be ignored. even if they were far weaker, they were both matching a hiruzen who was able to push the nine tails away a few years prior with zero difficulty.
The Hiruzen who did that was far stronger than the one Orochimaru fought ,as Orochimaru himself agree as I proved.
none of the kage broke free from said edo as i stated. the only edo that broke it was itachi, and that was sully used with koto.
Hashirama did.
not gonna debate over that lol, but as i said, statements should be involved as well. and by using feats, pushing the nine tails out of konoha with little difficulty is far above most if not all things raikage has shown.
again, it should not matter as hiruzen was as well, and fighting the two strongest shinobis alive.
i stated in my previous , oldness doesn't change the outcome of skill.
Already answered
that....is defining overpowering.
He crushed Guy. I also forgot to mention that the Kisame who did that was in fact a clone with only 30/100 of Kisame original chakra. Which in fact means that the real Kisame is , FAR stronger in strenght
jiraiya was still in a life or death situation, and due to his sealing jutsu, was able to help naruto. this doesnt mean jiraiya is stronger, just that he had the means to stop him/
How does that help your point ?
2 things are wrong with that, one, orochimaru was severely weakened with his arms being sealed
As I said, and as you himself proved most of Orochimaru arsenal come from his snakes. And as we can see in your scans he was not seriously weakened or suffering from the arms being sealed during the fight.
he was fighting a much more stronger and more dangerous naruto.
Ok
while true, it shown him absorbing it rather quickly to decrease said impact.
Only a part of the cloack. (when Killer Bee charged head on with his sword)
true, in which the charge kisame was being overpowered for a time.
He only was overpowered when Bee used V2.
theses are some from my BSM naruto cav i did but theses relevate to strength on a drastic level, and theses are all weaker versions of naruto
As I said, the feat you brought with Orochimaru is the best one from him, but It's not above Kisame strenght feat, even more now that I proved the Kisame who crushed Guy have only 30/100 of his strenght. And as a matter of facts you don't showed Naruto being unable to hold the branch.
And as far as strenght feats go, SM Naruto>KCM Naruto.
Final counters on speed & reflexes/reaction feats
that orochimaru scales higher then the edo hiruzen.
Even with the help of those two edo hokages he was unable to hurt Hiruzen before a long time during the fight.
6 gates does not grant instant speed...and kisame could not react to him to him ,he was overwhelmed.
Yes it does, and Kisame reacted at an extent as I proved.
the scans you shown was him just being overwhelmed. . . well anyway, its still a good feat, but no where close to instant speed like you implied.
He reacted and managed to jump in the airs and try to hit guy without getting blitz , it should also be noted that he managed to follow guys moves, and keep in mind as I proved above that was a version of Kisame with only 30/100 of his chakra.
yeah, thereby not making it a blind point.
Ok.
while a very plausible situation, orochimaru is much more flexible and more creative then the likes of guy or rock lee, who solely focus on close quarters combat. same with neji. orochimaru will most likely, like he does, stick to mid to long range so kisame cant tag him.
I proved Kisame to be faster on everything than Orochimaru.
while i'll say bee is fast, he was not matching him in speed, the only time he was was when he trapped bee in water. other then that, kisame was getting overwhelmed.
The scans disagree with you. As you can clearly see Kisame was capable of keeping up and outfought Bee attacks when Bee was in base. And as I proved with my two previous posts he also did it when Bee was in V1.
mhhh, that is wrong for two reasons. if we go by feats, Orochimaru is about as fast as KCM naruto or higher due to reacting and stopping the god tree before it could reach the ground.
How does that even make sense ? Nowhere in the scans you posted Naruto and Orochimaru are in a speed contest to stop the god tree.
the god tree being able to blitz BSM naruto easily and orochimaru being able to intercept it.
You never showed that .
he saw it yes, but he didnt set down any jutsus until it was allready half way towards him.
Ok good point.
yeah, i didnt need to cause its irrelevant for four tails, but not when it comes to the god tree, which blitzed a much faster naruto.
You never showed Naruto being blitzed by it , and Orochimaru stopping the same attack who blitzed Naruto.
Final about endurance & durability
you debunked my KCM4 naruto feat, not my god tree one where it blitzed a higher form naruto.
I did.
that is very false, because its clearly shown that he still had his arms restricted by the seal.
That doens't change what I said.
Final counters about Jutsus
to where did you say that?
When Kisame mentionned Jiraiya and the Sannin reputation.
while true, this is kisame we are talking about, the man who fought the eight gates formation, even while having knowledge on might guy, with his samehada.
He dind't knew about Might Guy true power. He underestimated him as he himself stated when they fought for the second time
his showings on what he does doesnt prove that.
Yes it does. As soon as he knew how strong Guy really was he did go all out against him, unlike Guy Orochimaru have a massive reputation under his belt, I see no reason for Kisame to hold back his attacks. Hell Kisame himself stated that he respect the Sannins reputation
i allready proven why he would be fast enough to evade, even so, turning the battlefield into water wont really be a problem, as orochimaru can still tag him while under.
Orochimaru have no feats on fighting underwater.
go to the curse mark on The jounin.
???
i agree on if the sharks eat him, but you told me to provide a feat of that, in which i did, now your changing the question based on the feats i have shown
The feat you showed was him coming back when Sasuke CALLED for his power AFTER ABSORBING HIM, and anyway I don't see how it does contradict my point.
but either way, he wont be hit by the sharks for him to die.
Likely he would.
i see no reason as of why kisame floods immedaly in character. and Lol at kisame automatically using his strongest form first hand. kisame only floods and uses that form as a final act, in which the battle will be over before that with orochimaru tagging him with a curse mark.
Kisame know Orochimaru reputation and how dangerous he is. As I said he would want to get ride of him as soon as possible. But even without the Tailed Beast form Kisame can beat him.
he can blow it away via wind style
The entire lake ? Which will be more than twice bigger than the one Kisame used against Might Guy team ? (because the whole 30/100 thing y'know) Hell no ! He have no feats who would allow him to do that when he is pressured by Kisame and his sharks. But for the sake of the argument let's say Orochimaru manage to spam Wind Style, Kisame can crush him using his own jutsu power against him
Not to mention that the Daikodan is as big as Might Guy Hirudora, I proved above the explosion from the Hirudora is much bigger than the Island where Naruto and Bee where hidding.
If Orochimaru tank the Daikodan boosted by his own Wind Style he would just be completely destroyed from existence.
simply move away from it until hes out of it.
Nop, Kisame is still faster.
while i agree with the snakes not being good underwater, there are plenty of snakes that can kill sharks with poison, in which orochimarus arsenal has shown to be capable of doing.
Being uselles underwater= They can't fight and would get destroyed by Kisame sharks in seconds.
faster, more durable will not be stolen. and its plausible that he can due to idk, going into the ground.
I proved Kisame to be faster in both general speed and combat speed. And the whole into the ground argument is debunked by the battlefield being water.
you didn't prove he was faster, only that he had orochimarus travel speed with reaction speed. orochimaru has superior combat and reaction speed via scaling and the god tree.
Debunked above.
kisame CAN run out of charka via his own stamina running low, to say he cant is ridiculous.
That would take ages, ages Orochimaru don't have.
just cause something is big compared to the other, does not equal into AP or DC. i will say kisames sharks> orochimarus snakes, but due to sheer numbers on orochimarus side, it'll turn into snakes> sharks.
Debunked above.
was that shown in the manga, cause i dont remember him fly cannon wise.
you know while he is in the air like to propose, orochimaru can easily pierce him with his sword
Samehada would heal him instantly, he was able to take Bee V2 charge and getting back on the fight almost right after, the sword would be a joke for him.
as i shown via the might guy statement, he wont start off with it
didnt counter the IC kisame vs might guy statement.
gets pierced via blade
does not flood in start IC
All answered.
i would very much like to disagree on orochimarus charka supply. he has enough to casually whip out a monster summon, while heavily nerfed, can hold onto the god tree for a extended period of time and not have his charka drained, etc etc.
Good feats. But far under Kisame feats as I proved above. Kisame chakra>>>>>Orochimaru chakra
that is ninjutsu, not senjutsu, which is a applicant of the curse mark. kisame has zero resistance of absorbing or tanking any senjutsu attacks.
Orochimaru cursed mark is still chakra who is given by force like the guy tried on Kisame. And I proved Kisame to be able to absod instantly any exterior chakra in him, I don't see why it won't work with the cursed mark.
his samehada has not shown to do that.
Already answered.
FINAL CONCLUSION IN SUMMARY
I proved Kisame being not only far stronger than Orochimaru but also more skilled ,faster and as versatile. I showed plenty of ways on how Kisame could beat Orochimaru (Sharks wave, Daikodan, stealing the chakra, drowning) and countered every point on how Orochimaru could beat Kisame.
That being said good job @rikuyamaha that was a pleasure !
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