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#1 Edited by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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Naruto Uzamaki (@oldkingthanos) vs The Dwarf in the Flask, Homunculus (@asgardianbrony)

  • Win by KO, incap or death.
  • No BFR.
  • Fighters are going all out.
  • Father has God acquired and the souls of Amestris
  • Naruto is current but can only use physical attacks.
  • Fight takes place in uninhabited Amestris
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#2 Posted by EmperorThanos- (14427 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: I guess you didn't see the PM in time. Ah well.

You can change "Byakuya has full powers" to "Byakuya is current and starts with Bankai activated"

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#3 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldkingthanos: I can change to naruto if you want.

If not, ok, i'll edit bakuya's powers.

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#4 Edited by EmperorThanos- (14427 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: Actually yea change it naruto

  • Naruto is current but can only use physical attacks. No special ninjutsu
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#5 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldkingthanos: Ok.

Also, mind if i go first? I have a bit of a window before i need to get busting butt on school.

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#6 Posted by EmperorThanos- (14427 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Chronicplane (6688 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh ok, T4V.

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#10 Posted by deactivated-5b0845740eb0b (1578 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Edited by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldkingthanos:

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Father: The Dwarf in the Flask, Homunculus

The Dwarf in the Flask was the first ever Homunculus, created from the essence of God and a drop of Slave 23, or as he would later be called, Hohenheim's blood. The Dwarf was a slave himself, confined to his flask, until the day the king of Xerxes brought him out to inquire of the way to gain immortality. Taking hold of this chance the Homunculus deceived the king into creating a nationwide transmutation circle which when activated wiped out all of Xerxes, leaving only Hohenheim and the Dwarf alive, now possessing a human form. The Homunculus then traveled across the desert to form the country of Amestris, ruling from the shadows with his spawned homunculus children. From then on the Dwarf, now called Father, had one goal; to experience life to the fullest, to truly escape the flask of limitations, to become a perfect being...

For the purposes of this debate i will be representing Father at his most powerful, after absorbing the souls of Amestris and aquiring God to become a perfect being. Father's powers are vast and include the following:

Powers/Abilities

  • Motionless Alchemy
  • Nuclear Fusion
  • Gravity Manipulation
  • Soul Energy manipulation
  • Immortality/healing factor
  • Self-Manipulation
  • Absorption/Amplification

Now then, on to the argument. This CAV actually started because @oldkingthanos claims that Father would get stomped by any mountain tier character and all his showings, for some reason, dont count even with on-panel proof and calcs to back them up. Therefore, before i show the different ways Father can utilize his alchemy i must first enumerate how powerful his alchemy actually is based on two feats.

The Mini-Sun: Father's Casual Power Level

To start off with lets begin with God Father's signature move after gaining God and the souls of Amestris, his mini-sun.

No Caption Provided

This sun functioned the same as a true sun and, according to Hohenheim, was created using Nuclear fusion (1,2). Firstly, the power this mini-sun would output if allowed to explode, while not on the level of an actual supernova it is still immensely powerful, capable of wiping out an island as large as Ireland (3).

Secondly, Father was containing the mini-sun using his alchemical energy, which is in itself a feat of immense power (4). To allow for the sustained nuclear fusion of a mini-sun to function Father had to mimic 8% of the sun's gravitational field using his alchemical energy! The sun's gravity is 28x greater than earths gravity, so at bare minimum in creating a sun Father was containing it with a force 3.5 times more powerful than earth's gravity.

Thirdly, Father cannot shield himself and use offensive Alchemy of this nature at the same time, meaning that if he were to explode the mini-sun he would be hit with the full brunt of the blast; however as God Father he was fully willing to unleash the sun and destroy everything around him.

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This means that at full power Father can casually tank Island/small country busting attacks with ease.

The above feat is Father's signature move and something he is willing to utilize without remorse when he had his full power (it became to risky to use when he got depowered). This is God Father's casual power level and i already highly doubt Naruto can handle it going by what you said in the PM, but now let us move on to Father's power limits.

Devourer of Truth: Father's Power Limits

Father's greatest feat however is the channeling of the earths gate, devouring of the souls of Amestris and acquiring God. Firstly, the energy Father channeled and absorbed while attempting to pull God down to earth was easily large country level:

  • The energy surrounded the whole country (1)
  • The earth's gate was as large as the whole country (2)
  • Father absorbed the souls of the entire country, aka 50,000,000 souls (3)
  • The energy is not just there for visual effect. Father states that the energies were indescribably immense (5,6)

And then, of course, after pulling down God and absorbing him the energy unleashed was so large that it engulfed the entire country of Amestris:

No Caption Provided

So as you can see, it is explicitly shown on-screen and in the manga (7) that when he had the souls of Amestris and God contained inside him Father's alchemical energy was at large country level at the very least. This is shown on panel plain as day, there is no arguing it unless you want to claim your eyes deceive you.

Now a calc isn't needed, but just to make my case even more rock solid i thought i would calc the power of Father's souls. FMA runs on the concept of equivalent exchange and every soul is equal to another in value; no soul was ever shown to be more valuable than another, thus we can calculate Father's power based off the number of souls inside him.

To begin the calc we must first find the best showing of power using a Philosopher's stone (made up of souls). For that we have Kimblee's feat during the Ishvalan War, where using a Philosopher's stone made of ten souls (two Ishvalans were sacrificed at the 5 pentacle points to create a stone) Kimblee wrecked the Ishvalan city:

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This feat is town level in destructive power, or to be more precise 90.4225 kilotons is the best feat of destructive power performed using 10 souls. 90.4225 divided by 10 equals 9.04225 kilotons of power per souls, now we simply multiply that by 50,000,000 and plug it into the Nukemap to get Father's raw alchemical power:

The bluish/grey circle is the blast power
The bluish/grey circle is the blast power

Thus, by this calc with the souls of Amestris Father's alchemical power is large country level (this only applies to his energy/raw power, not durability or physical strength). Surprisingly, this calc is in perfect agreement with what we see in the show and manga.

Now before you go criticizing the calc or the concept of calcs in general let me be perfectly clear, this calc only serves to legitimize what is plain as day shown in the anime/manga. If i was basing my entire argument on this calc then you would be entirely justified to dismiss it out of hand, but seeing as the anime/manga explicitly show that Father absorbed/wielded large country level power after obtaining the souls of Amestris and God, you cannot dismiss it and in fact there is no argument against this.

There you have it. The alchemical power Father wields at full strength is large country level and he can casually attack with island busting nuclear mini-suns as well as tank island busting power with ease. Seeing as Father had hardly ay screen time at full power it was important i show what power he had during that time, and by on-panel/on-screen feats as well as calcs i think i have definitively proven just how powerful he is.

Motionless Alchemy

With the above cleared up it is now time to show off a few ways Father can utilize his alchemical/soul energy. Seeing as i don't know much about Naruto i will not be revealing my full bag of tricks just yet, but the basics should suffice for now.

Shields

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  • 1: Father's shields are instantaneous and he doesn't even have to look to activate them.
  • 2: Father's shields no-sell Alphonse and Izumi's alchemy attacks.
  • 3,4: Father's shields no-sell Roy Mustang's "oven" attack.

Transmutation

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Chapter 96: our Two Heroins

Father has full knowledge of Alchemy and can use it any way he wishes. As seen here in a weaker form Father equals Hohenheim in a battle of transmutation, and Hohenheim is a living philosopher stone containing over 500,000 souls. Father can also perform feats of alchemy beyond the capacity or knowledge of any other alchemist, such as even controlling the weather to create a tornado:

Chapter 105: on God's throne
Chapter 105: on God's throne
Chapter 105: on God's throne
Chapter 105: on God's throne

Energy Blasts

Father can utilize the philosophers stone within himself to create massive blasts of energy as well. These blasts are huge in size, one of which blew a hole through the central military headquarters:

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Now before we move on i must again point out a few things. Firstly, all the above feats were performed by Father before he absorbed the souls of Amestris or after he lost them; these were all accomplished by Father in a weakened state and as i have shown at full power Father is large country level. Secondly, the above is just scratching the tip of the ice-burgh. Not only does Father have more power than anyone in the series by miles, he is also the one who brought Alchemy to Amestris and thus has full knowledge of its uses (1), thus any feat of Alchemy is a feat for Father.

Conclusion

  • At full power (Souls of Amestris and God absorbed) Father is large country tier by feats/scaling.
  • Father can tank and unleash large Island busting power casually.
  • Father is immensely versatile, capable of no-selling attacks with his forcefields, summoning mini-suns, unleashing his alchemical power in huge blasts and transmuting the entire environment.
  • This is the bare minimum of what i have yet to show.

If what you said in the PM about you using a mountain leve character is true then i must say Father stomps hard as his power quite literally dwarfs mountain busting. Naruto has to be capable of dishing out and tanking large island to large country level attacks if he can even hope to contend, and even then since you have limited him to physicals only Father holds an insurmountable advantage in the versatility department with his alchemy.

Since this debate also started because you claimed Father was weak, maybe with the above proof shown to the contrary you will realize you were wrong and that Father stomps hard and you will concede. There is no shame in it. I await your post or concession and i leave you with an epic AMV :D

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#12 Posted by Chad_Duby (3072 posts) - - Show Bio

Omigod.

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#13 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by TheBeardOfZues (1990 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag please, I'm already intrigued.

Nice first post.

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#15 Posted by Chad_Duby (3072 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by EmperorThanos- (14427 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Gear4God (3841 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#23 Posted by EmperorThanos- (14427 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: In hindsight. Naruto might actually be too strong. So let me know if I need to switch to someone weaker

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Naruto Uzumaki

Bio

Naruto is main protagonist of the popular Shonen Manga series Naruto. When Naruto was a child his father was forced to seal the Nine Tails inside Naruto after it went loose on the village. Naruto's father and mother both died during the attack with sealing the Kurama being their last act. Naruto would grow up as an orphan, shunned by most of the village due Jinchuuriki. Nonetheless he persevered and he had just one goal in life, becoming Hokage. Over the years he would make friends and soon be regarded as hero amongst the people in his village. Naruto would eventually achieve his dream of becoming Hokage and become arguable the strongest character in the entire Naruto verse.

Speedblitz

First reason as to why Father loses to is speed. Father has no noticeable speed feat compared to most characters on this tier. At best he is faster than a bunch of bullet timers which really means nothing. The only speed feat you have shown is him blocking Edwards attack without looking. That is hardly instantaneous.

Naruto is leagues above anyone in FMA in terms of raw speed. Naruo has been shown to be FTE since forever. Even as a kid with Kyuubi chakra Naurto has been able to mover faster than likes of Sasuke who struggled to keep track of him despite having his sharingan activated.

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This was stronger versions of the Sasuke that was shown to be comparable in speed to Lee without Gates. As for how fast Lee is. Well whilst wearing 10 weights Lee was still able to move at casual FTE speeds

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Now as you can see above Lee was struggling against Gaara's shield which is also automatically protects him. However as soon as Lee dropped his weights. Even Gaara's auto sheilds couldn't protect him as Lee was simply too fast for his shields. And Lee was able to tag Gaara through his speed.

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Now this should be enough to put Naruto above anyone in FMA in terms of speed. But this is just kid Naruto and he has much better feats that rely on less scaling so I might as well post them.

In shippuden Naruto in his sage mode was able to throw attacks and fight in the span of a second. We are actually given the time on panel showing how fast Naruto.

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However Naruto only really achieves his speed during the war arc with KCM. KCM Naruto was able to dodge and block the fastest shinbi at the time, 4th Raikage A. Infact the only person that was faster than him was Naruto's father who was a really fast teleporter. Naruto on the other hand was able to dodge his attack with sheer speed.

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The Fourth Raikage uses a technique that essentially shrouds hismself in lightening chakra. It amps his all his stats but more than others, his speed is increased the most. Arguably allowing to move as fast as lightening itself.

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To further prove that is around lightening speed. Raikage was able to move fast that Sasuke could see with Mangekyo Sharingan. The Mangekyo Sharingan has allowed Itachi to react to cloud to ground lightening that could move at 1/1000 of second . And Raikage was able to dodge Sasuke's amaterasu whihc is activated by just looking at his opponent

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Furthermore Naruto stated that his Sage Mode was actually faster than the KCM above and increased his senses. This allowed him to deal with the 3rd Raikage as he was able to dodge his attack at the last minute and direct that attack back to the Raikage.

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So Naruto is faster than someone faster than lightening. Though if you want more proof of Naruto being faster than lightening. Well he reacted to a lightening attack being fired at him and was able to throw his rod to stop the attack before it reached him

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Naruto was also able to blitz Madara. Who at this point was much faster than lightening and was closer to relatavistic speed in terms of reactions. Yet Naruto was still able to blitz him with his speed.

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Now I could go one step further and begin arguing why Naruto is lightspeed. But that is unnecessary. Naruto is several times faster than lightening and that alone puts him leagues above anyone in the FMA verse. Simply put father can't react or see Naruto.

One shotting

Naruto also strikes harder than anyone Father has fought. His shields have never taken strikes from someone on Naruto's level. Here are just a couple of his feats.

A weakened Naruto with basically no chakra left was able to punch sasuke into the air and into the rock. Cracking and creating a small crater as a result of his strike.

No Caption Provided

But that is nothing. Here is a feat that is definitely above basically everyone Father fought in FMA. Here Naruto while just tapping into a small portion of Kurama's chakra was able to blitz and strike Orochimaru through a forest. Destroying a large number of trees as a result of his strike.

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Later in that fight Naruto went in to his 4 tails mode. Where he was able to kill over 100 snakes sent towards him by Orochimaru with casual wave. This also created a large shockwave that could be felt across the forest Yamato was even amazed by this despite Naruto performing the above feat moments earlier. Showing the increase in strength.

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That should suffice in showing he can oneshot Father but I will go a step further and show some of his best striking feats. Such as during his fight with Toneri. This is current Naruto and arguably the strongest he has ever been. Here he punches Toneri hard enough to create a large crater on the moon.

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Initial counters: Not a country buster.

This sun functioned the same as a true sun and, according to Hohenheim, was created using Nuclear fusion (1,2). Firstly, the power this mini-sun would output if allowed to explode, while not on the level of an actual supernova it is still immensely powerful, capable of wiping out an island as large as Ireland (3).

And right off the bat we start with calcs. Calcs you didn't even do. The first glaring problem with this calc is that it uses pixel scaling. Which means that we are unaware of how large the sun, and thus we try to find out through pixels. Which is an issue since manga panels do not directly translate to real world size. Secondly this guy then goes on to use another calc within his own calc. Thirdly this takes a huge assumption on that this mini sun is as hot as a real one. Which if true should have atleast melted most of immediate vicinity. Finally this only takes into account what would happen if it exploded. The Supernova explosion should be related the Father. His feat is for creating the star not exploding it.

Secondly, Father was containing the mini-sun using his alchemical energy, which is in itself a feat of immense power (4). To allow for the sustained nuclear fusion of a mini-sun to function Father had to mimic 8% of the sun's gravitational field using his alchemical energy! The sun's gravity is 28x greater than earths gravity, so at bare minimum in creating a sun Father was containing it with a force 3.5 times more powerful than earth's gravity.

Wait where in the scans does it say he was mimic 8% of the suns gravity? All it states was that he was sustaining it using alchemy. That could mean a varierty things. And before you bring real science and say he had to have been doing this, bare in mind creating suns through alchemy is not real science to begin with. So that could have been something entirely different.

The above feat is Father's signature move and something he is willing to utilize without remorse when he had his full power (it became to risky to use when he got depowered). This is God Father's casual power level and i already highly doubt Naruto can handle it going by what you said in the PM, but now let us move on to Father's power limits.

So I suppose the big question is. Why oh why this Father never use this. Like even once when he was at full power. If this was casual for him he shouldnt have been worried about it even if he got depowered too. So there is really no excuse as to why he wouldn't use it. For all we know he was bluffing earlier when he said he would release it. And in truth he wouldn't because it would kill him.

The fact remains he never did let it loose.

Father's greatest feat however is the channeling of the earths gate, devouring of the souls of Amestris and acquiring God. Firstly, the energy Father channeled and absorbed while attempting to pull God down to earth was easily large country level:

  • The energy surrounded the whole country (1)
  • The earth's gate was as large as the whole country (2)
  • Father absorbed the souls of the entire country, aka 50,000,000 souls (3)
  • The energy is not just there for visual effect. Father states that the energies were indescribably immense (5,6)

You despite all this. No actual damage was done. Like I see that they are large in size but aside from that. But honestly some statements here and there don't change the fact that it still seems like just a fancy visual effect. The Anime just makes it look more flashy but that's about it.

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But like I said in the end no damage to the city at all

No Caption Provided

So as you can see, it is explicitly shown on-screen and in the manga (7) that when he had the souls of Amestris and God contained inside him Father's alchemical energy was at large country level at the very least. This is shown on panel plain as day, there is no arguing it unless you want to claim your eyes deceive you.

Like I said. Looks big but the fact is it didn't much damage to the counter at all. Basically nothing. So his destructive capabilities are called into queston here since again nothing was actually destroyed.

To begin the calc we must first find the best showing of power using a Philosopher's stone (made up of souls). For that we have Kimblee's feat during the Ishvalan War, where using a Philosopher's stone made of ten souls (two Ishvalans were sacrificed at the 5 pentacle points to create a stone) Kimblee wrecked the Ishvalan city:

This feat is town level in destructive power, or to be more precise 90.4225 kilotons is the best feat of destructive power performed using 10 souls. 90.4225 divided by 10 equals 9.04225 kilotons of power per souls, now we simply multiply that by 50,000,000 and plug it into the Nukemap to get Father's raw alchemical power:

Now in regards to the calc I have already. As I said before. you are making a bunch of assumptions here. Like the fact that philosophers stone's power is evenly spread across each soul. Which is a pretty big assumptions. Secondly you assume that it works this linearly. But this is almost never the case. This is clear ABC logic.

Thus, by this calc with the souls of Amestris Father's alchemical power is large country level (this only applies to his energy/raw power, not durability or physical strength). Surprisingly, this calc is in perfect agreement with what we see in the show and manga.

No it isn't. If it was inline with what we see in the manga then we would have seen father country bust. What part of that is hard to understand? For him to be a country buster there needs to be feats for country busting. But he has never country busted nor does he scale from anyone who has. I would have accepted this if he atleast one of the two things have happened. But neither have happened. Instead we have some calcs and one instance of country wide energy that resulted in jack shit.

Now before we move on i must again point out a few things. Firstly, all the above feats were performed by Father before he absorbed the souls of Amestris or after he lost them; these were all accomplished by Father in a weakened state and as i have shown at full power Father is large country level. Secondly, the above is just scratching the tip of the ice-burgh. Not only does Father have more power than anyone in the series by miles, he is also the one who brought Alchemy to Amestris and thus has full knowledge of its uses (1), thus any feat of Alchemy is a feat for Father.

What a BS cop out lol. So because he now lacks feats you are going to use every alchemy feat ever shown. I don't really think that's how it works. I mean did Father show the ability to sues everyone's alchemy? Like Mustangs because I honestly can't remember.

Overall

  • Father has no country busting feats. Period, end of discussion. You can go ahead and do your various mental gymnastics and cals but the fact remains that he lacks feats. The fact that you have to resort to using alchemy feats of others only furthers that.
  • Father lacks speed feats. The speed gap is massive between the two. Father cannot react to Naruto nor can he tag him. He is simply too slow and Naruto would end the fight before Father even realizes it has begun.
  • Father lacks durability feats as well. And I don't see why Naruto cannot oneshot him with one of his more powerful strikes.
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#24 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldkingthanos: He doesn't seem to strong right now. Expect my post in the coming week.

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#25 Posted by Otsdarva999 (376 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#26 Posted by TheWatcherKing (16595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Edited by EmperorThanos- (14427 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking said:
@oldkingthanos said:

something wrong?

Nothing serious.

PM me anyway. I'm curious. Afterall you are in the pm so you know how this started

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#28 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by HitTheAssasin (5774 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh, T4V. This is shaping up to be a rather....strange CaV.

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#30 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldkingthanos: Heh, this was a lot shorter than i expected.

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Father: He who would Swallow God

"When you see an insect lying on the ground, do you stop to consider it a fool? The life of an insect is so beneath you that it would be a waste of your time to even consider judging it. That would be an accurate summation of my feelings towards you humans."

Counters

Country-Tier

You despite all this. No actual damage was done. Like I see that they are large in size but aside from that. But honestly some statements here and there don't change the fact that it still seems like just a fancy visual effect. The Anime just makes it look more flashy but that's about it.

Firstly, you cannot just ignore statements because it is inconvenient to your argument, and you definitely cannot ignore what is flat out shown on-screen to further your wrong thinking:

No Caption Provided

Just the energy Father manipulated to open the earths gate (the same energy described as being beyond description) spanned the entire country of Amestris and cut through the ground all around it, even plowing through mountains! That is on-screen proof to back up the on-panel statement that this was indeed powerful energy, not just a special flashy light.

Furthermore, anyone who knows anything about FMA alchemy knows that one has to harness energy (in humans case, the earths energy and in Father's case soul energy) to perform any transmutation. To claim that Father didn't harness any energy whatsoever is not only proven false by dialogue/on-screen proof, it also contradicts the canon of FMA.

Your claim that Father absorbing God isn't country level is honestly even more laughable. Not only is the explosion that resulted from Father absorbing God country level in size...

No Caption Provided

But God/Truth in FMA is the literal embodiment of the entire world (perhaps even the universe), the Hermetic All in All:

No Caption Provided

But according to you, Father didn't gain a significant amp from that, in fact your argument is that Father gained no power at all as the resulting blast (which was quite obviously metaphysical in nature, considering Father was one with the earths gate which is another plane of existence) didn't damage the country! This is, quite frankly, ridiculous and is a textbook example of reaching.

The blast not destroying the country can simply be attributed to its metaphysical nature. The fact is Father absorbed the earths gate (as large as Amestris), the 50,000,000 souls of Amestris and God (which resulted in a country sized explosion). If you honestly want to claim that Father is street level in the face of all this evidence then be my guest, lol.

No it isn't. If it was inline with what we see in the manga then we would have seen father country bust. What part of that is hard to understand? For him to be a country buster there needs to be feats for country busting. But he has never country busted nor does he scale from anyone who has. I would have accepted this if he atleast one of the two things have happened. But neither have happened. Instead we have some calcs and one instance of country wide energy that resulted in jack shit.

This is an incredibly close minded argument. Firstly, Father didn't country bust as (a) he didn't want to and (b) he had the 50,000,000 souls of Amestris for barely 5 minutes before he got depowered by Hohenheim and crew's reverse transmutation circle they had set up in advance. This does not change the fact that Father absorbed country level energy, if not far higher.

Secondly, Father doesn't scale to anyone? How about God, who as i have shown is the embodiment of the world? Honestly if i wanted i could claim Father/God was planetary or even universal, but I'm limiting my arguments to him being country level as that seems more reasonable and is easily supported by feats/calcs.

Let me guess, God is street tier because he didn't bust a country? I guess TOAA cant beat ants either because he has never killed an ant, lol.

Now in regards to the calc I have already. As I said before. you are making a bunch of assumptions here. Like the fact that philosophers stone's power is evenly spread across each soul. Which is a pretty big assumptions. Secondly you assume that it works this linearly. But this is almost never the case. This is clear ABC logic.

I am assuming you are not well versed in FMA going by your arguments here. Firstly, as i already mentioned, in FMA all souls are equal. No soul was ever shown to be superior to another, nor could they be or else soul transmutation would not work as everything must follow the law of exchange. If you can find it stated in FMA that certain souls are more valuable or powerful in alchemy than others then i will disavow my calc, otherwise it is legit.

Secondly, as i once again already mentioned, the calc serves only to further prop up what is explicitly shown on-screen. You have to refute the feats/statements from the show and manga before you can discredit my calc, and unfortunately for you other than blatant reaching and lowballing their is no way to question the on-screen feats.

Mini-Sun

And right off the bat we start with calcs. Calcs you didn't even do. The first glaring problem with this calc is that it uses pixel scaling. Which means that we are unaware of how large the sun, and thus we try to find out through pixels. Which is an issue since manga panels do not directly translate to real world size. Secondly this guy then goes on to use another calc within his own calc. Thirdly this takes a huge assumption on that this mini sun is as hot as a real one. Which if true should have atleast melted most of immediate vicinity. Finally this only takes into account what would happen if it exploded. The Supernova explosion should be related the Father. His feat is for creating the star not exploding it.

Firstly, if you can calculate the size of the sun then do so, if not you are just nitpicking. The calc judges the size of the sun by how large it was next to Father, which is a perfectly valid calculation. Even if the sun is a few centimeters smaller than the calc says, it would still be in the island busting range as with this calc it is already capable of busting a land mass as large as Ireland.

Secondly, the mini-sun not melting the area can be attributed to Father containing it with his alchemy/soul energy. The mini-sun is explicitly called a Sun by Hohenheim and, like a true sun, is powered by nuclear fusion. In the anime it can even be seen to have energy flares and look exactly like a real sun:

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Claiming it was not as hot as a real sun is plain and simple lowballing that is not only an utterly biased opinion (as you are trying to win this cav by any means), is not supported by any hard evidence but also presumes that the writer wanted to make this feat less impressive. IMO, once you start presuming to think for the author to claim a feat is less impressive is when you know you are reaching too far.

Lastly, are you claiming Father cant explode the mini-sun? He explicitly says he can and was going to do so before he got depowered!

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Wait where in the scans does it say he was mimic 8% of the suns gravity? All it states was that he was sustaining it using alchemy. That could mean a varierty things. And before you bring real science and say he had to have been doing this, bare in mind creating suns through alchemy is not real science to begin with. So that could have been something entirely different.

Actually, Alchemy in FMA is science.

I only brought this up so you couldn't go claiming the feat is scientifically impossible and thus unusable, but if you want to claim the sun is "magical" that is fine, for in fact it shows yet again how ridiculous the lowballing is. If you claim the mini-sun "isn't real science" and that real science doesn't apply, then what is stopping me from claiming the mini-sun is just as powerful as a real full sized sun? After all, if we cant use science to determine how Father contained the sun then why should we scientifically limit the suns power based on its size?

Science/calculations are perfectly valid to use in debates as long as they don't contradict common sense/what is shown on-panel (example: people lowballing Thor's lightning punch because hulk didnt fly backwards, despite the massive shockwave and colateral damage shown on screen). Scientific calcs are used all the time in debates for speed, strength, durability, heat, ect.

So I suppose the big question is. Why oh why this Father never use this. Like even once when he was at full power. If this was casual for him he shouldnt have been worried about it even if he got depowered too. So there is really no excuse as to why he wouldn't use it. For all we know he was bluffing earlier when he said he would release it. And in truth he wouldn't because it would kill him.

Father never used it as he got depowered just before he was about to let it loose, and after being depowered he couldn't as it would kill him.

Father at full power is large country level (at least), so the mini-sun is casual for him to create, explode and tank. After being depowered of the 50,000,000 souls (which left him with only 500,000 souls) the mini-sun was the limit of his power and would kill him on use. Also, Father was deteriorating after getting depowered as his remaining souls were being used up trying to contain God. Its not that hard to understand.

The fact remains he never did let it loose.

He was about to. It is in character for him to do so.

So to sum it up, it is shown on-screen that Father absorbed country level power at the very least by feats and my calcs further support this. To claim otherwise is blatant lowballing and goes against everything shown in the anime/manga, including the core concept of how Alchemy works in the FMA-verse. Father's country level power and his spammable mini-sun are still just as valid as ever.

Arguments

You have indeed proven that Naruto is far faster than Father and will be able to get the first hit in, but that is of no concern to me firstly, because none of the feats you listed come even close to the mini-sun which Father can tank no problem. Secondly, because of Father's unique Homunculus physiology which not only allows him to regenerate rapidly from any injury to the point where he could no-sell Scar's physical disintegration attack (1,2,3) but also gives him full control of his physical form, to the point where he can counter any physical attack:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Chapter 104: the Center of the World

So even when you strike Father it will do no damage to him, as he can simply regenerate and meld his form to restrain you, thus leaving you vulnerable to attack. Father could simply imprison your hands in his body and then AOE blast you like so:

No Caption Provided

Seeing as you have provided no durability feats for Naruto i must assume he will be oneshot killed, but lets say Naruto survives (though he would be stunned). Father can then unleash the mini-sun, which Naruto has no way of escaping and, i assume, would easily disintegrate him.

Of course, Father also has many hax ways to kill Naruto as well.

What a BS cop out lol. So because he now lacks feats you are going to use every alchemy feat ever shown. I don't really think that's how it works. I mean did Father show the ability to sues everyone's alchemy? Like Mustangs because I honestly can't remember.

Indeed he has. As the teacher of Alchemy to Amestris Father knows all Alchemy; this was shown in the final battle where Father easily repelled and then utilized Mustang's flame Alchemy:

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With Flame Alchemy Father can boil Naruto's eyes, burn his tongue, even light him on fire from the inside out. Father can also use Flame alchemy to create burning fire walls around him, both simultaneously protecting from and attacking Naruto. (1,2,3,4).

Father's best ability however is the power to drain souls and while your soul is being drained your body goes into a seizure, so there is no fighting back against it:

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Unless Naruto has some crazy powerful soul manipulation resistance he is going down hard. Speed will not help him escape, as Father is tearing his soul out of him, not shooting an attack at him.

Conclusion

  • My initial argument stands. Father is large-country tier and can tank and unleash large Island busting power casually.
  • Father not only has powerful durability and unlimited regeneration, he can also manipulate his body to survive in any form, even as a puddle. He can also use this ability to restrain Naruto, leaving him defenseless.
  • Father not only has the raw power to oneshot, he has hax abilities that can kill Naruto easily as well.
  • Naruto is massively faster, but Father's alchemy transmuting the environment should help slow him down.
  • Naruto, going by feats shown, cant hurt Father, so his speed advantage doesn't matter.
  • You have relied heavily on lowballing and dismissing feats because they do not fit your narrative.

I stand by what i said in my last post as i see no new information to the contrary. Father stomps as he cannot be hurt by Naruto, has the raw power to oneshot and has a massive advantage in the versatility department.

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#31 Posted by GearSecond659 (3248 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#32 Posted by deactivated-5b17f1b84ea5f (1752 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#34 Posted by DeathHero61 (17488 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting. t4v

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#35 Posted by MessiahBlack9 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

Unique match up with cliche nerfing of Naruto lol, they both doing surprisingly well. T4V

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#36 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

bump.