Okay this broken ass website isn't submitting the post and I wrote 5000 words and took an hour out my day uploading images so I'm dropping out. @mods fix ur website
Okay this broken ass website isn't submitting the post and I wrote 5000 words and took an hour out my day uploading images so I'm dropping out. @mods fix ur website
CSRF is a problem you'll run into when you try to post after a page has been open for a while. How long I have no clue. My advice is save your post to a self PM or open a duplicate page and post from there.
Note: Due to the more controversial aspects of this debate, I’ll be focusing first on his abilities before going onto stats, because the crux of this entire debate is probably going to be speed related. Decaff has agreed to me using a composite Kenjaku, which means that all cursed spirits that Kenjaku has owned and/or utilized can be used in this battle.
Introduction
Kenjaku is a Jujutsu Sorcerer that has lived for over 1000 years, due to his brain hopping technique that allows him to transfer his brain into other peoples bodies. Currently, not much is known about his personal history, and his only known motive is that he wants to force humankind to evolve by utilizing cursed energy.
Kenjakus Abilities
Cursed energy comes from the negative emotions of humanity. (Almost) all humans in Jujutsu Kaisen have cursed energy, but people who have above the average amount of cursed energy are able to manipulate this energy in order to boost their stats, utilize barrier techniques and fuel it into their techniques(if they’re born with any.)
Reverse Cursed Technique is the result of multiplying cursed energy rather than adding it together, which creates positive energy, rather than negative. It costs more energy to do, but it allows sorcerers to regenerate damage done to them, as well as fuel positive energy into techniques in order to reverse their effects, as well as boost its effects. A simple example of this would be fueling positive energy into an ability which pulls people closer to you, to instead push people away from you at double the strength. If Kenjaku ever takes damage in this fight, RCT will allow him to regenerate all damage done to him.
Domain amplification is an ability which gives the users cursed energy the characteristics of a domain expansion. If a technique is not imbued in the cursed energy during domain amplification, then it neutralizes the techniques of anything it hits. The main downside to this ability is that while it is being used, you cannot use your own techniques. Luckily for Kenjaku, any cursed spirit released before he uses this wouldn’t be affected, as cursed spirits that are summoned aren’t techniques. Hanami and Jogo used this against Gojo to nullify his infinity ability and force him to fight up close using energy reinforcement + physicals alone. Gojo does eventually counter technique ability by just nullifying it with raw power, so if there's a significant gap in power then this technique doesn't mean much.
The Anti-Gravity system is one of his abilities that has obtained in the past from previous hosts, which allows him to negate gravity. We’re not so sure about its exact limitations and restrictions, although it’s not just a generic gravity negating technique because he had to amplify its output with a domain expansion in order to counter a blackhole(more on this later.)
The reversal technique of the Anti-Gravity system allows him to just manipulate gravity. It has a range of 3 meters and lasts for 6 seconds before it is put on a cool down which lasts for a few seconds. Yuki notes that he uses CSM during the cool down intervals so that he's not completely defenseless. This basically allows him to redirect any attacks as well as slam people down or push them away in close combat.
Domain Expansion is an advanced barrier technique which manifests a person's innate domain into reality and imbues their cursed technique into the domain. Domain Expansions trap people, boost a technique's power by about 120%, changes the environment(which usually gives the user a boost,) expand its possibilities, and guarantee techniques to hit no matter what. There's also different types of domain expansions. Incomplete domain expansions do not utilize barriers so it simply just boosts the techniques powers and versatility, although if an ample physical space is present in real life then the technique can be imbued into it. Non-lethal domain expansions focus on forcing opponents to follow specific rules which allows the user to control the flow of battle. Lethal domain expansions focus on guaranteeing lethal sure hit attacks, which can only be countered by another domain expansion, or barrier techniques which specifically counter the sure-hits of a domain expansion.
However, Kenjaku is the only other person in this series to showcase a lethal sure-hit domain expansion with no exterior barrier. This was described by the narrator as being a truly divine technique, it gives up the ability to trap people physically to instead massively increase the range of the technique by allowing an escape route. Most domain expansions seem to be around the size of a tennis court, but 15F Sukunas domain expansion was 200 meters long.
His Gravity DE basically gives him a huge barrier to protect himself as well as allowing him to slam anyone within its vicinity down hard and turn them into mush. The only reason why Yuki didn’t get completely crushed was because the floor that they were on was a barrier that she simply fell down through and Tengen was able to dismantle the barrier eventually.
He also used an incomplete domain expansion by using his body as the parameters for the domain to temporarily boost his anti-gravity system techniques output enough to negate the pull of a blackhole.
CSM Versatility
Cursed Spirit Manipulation is the ability that he gained after taking over Getos body. It allows him to absorb cursed spirits and summon them during battle. If there's a huge powergap between the cursed spirit and Kenjaku, then he’d have to whittle its life down before absorbing it, but otherwise it’s conditionless. One thing to note about all cursed spirits is that they all have natural regeneration.
Uzumaki is the Maximum Technique of CSM. Maximum Techniques are the most powerful applications of a technique besides domain expansions. Uzumaki allows him to fuse cursed spirits into one cursed spirit and launch it for massive damage. He can also utilize mini-uzumakis which can be used as quick and powerful beams.
Uzumaki also has the function of allowing him to extract the techniques of powerful cursed spirits that he put into his Uzumaki. I’ll speak more on one specific case on this later, but for now I’ll shine light on some of his most powerful cursed spirits throughout the series.
Kenjaku utilizes a variety of non-notable curses to compliment his fighting style and not reveal any of his abilities. However, he’s so powerful that he’s able to amplify the power of weak cursed spirits to the level of a Grade One, which he used against Choso to attack him. He has cursed spirits that he uses to fly around, Octopuses that grabs/restrains targets and seems to eat people alive, monsters which he use to block powerful attacks, and a mini-dragon that’s basically a Genjutsu which tricks peoples brains to make them think that they fell down a huge hole. The Octopuses and Mini-Dragon will be particularly useful in this fight.
The Smallpox Deity is a special grade curse spirit with a deadly domain expansion. Inside the domain expansion, the curse targets the person with the highest power level, and instantly traps them inside of a coffin. The coffin is then slammed into the ground by a gravestone at the top, burying the target. If the target cannot come back up to ground in three seconds, they’re infected with the chickenpox and instantly dies. Mei Mei, a Grade One sorcerer, notes that the gravestone does a great amount of damage each time it hits and if it kept hitting her then eventually her injuries wouldn’t allow her to move freely. The only reason she beat it is because her brother was there and they had a specific counter to it. Kenjaku has said this curse was one of his most deadly and powerful curses although it lacks feats against top tier characters in the verse.
Kurorushi is a special grade curse spirit that was released by Kenjaku when he started the culling games. It’s a cockroach spirit with the ability to produce swarms of cockroaches and manipulate them. It can reinforce the cockroaches with cursed energy to amplify its stats. The swarms are extremely deadly, as they can eat humans alive in under seconds, not only eating them from the outside but also the inside. The more flesh that the cockroaches consume, the more cockroaches that Kurorushi can produce, and if it ever dies their cursed energy transfers to the body of its child, which basically functions as an auto-revive. It also has the ability to create insects that release a liquid substance that blinds people, and they have a sword that can shoot small eggs that pierce the body and eventually causes huge insects to bust out and eat the target from the inside out. Its stats are impressive as they were able to physically hang with Yuta, the second strongest modern sorcerer, and Uro + Ryu who’re both top tiers who forced Yuta to use Rika.
Ganesha is a special grade asian moon cursed spirit with the ability to entangle(cancel) concepts and “remove” obstacles for Kenjaku. For example, a group of soldiers were commanded to come and kill him, so because they were “obstacles” to Kenjaku, Ganesha “removed” them and they were teleported from coming down from the hallways to being outside and in the air, where they fell to their death. The only reason why Yuki and Garuda could ignore this ability, is because they could inject so much virtual mass into themselves which made them impossible to “target” conceptually.
Mahito is a special grade cursed spirit who represents the collective hatred and fear of other humans. His ability, idle transformation, allows him to manipulate the souls of himself and others, which also manipulates their bodies. Only attacks that directly hit his soul damage him, otherwise attacks simply shave off a little bit of cursed energy. He uses this ability on himself to shapeshift, manipulate his size to dodge attacks, transforming parts of his body to run faster and fly, hardening parts of his body, turning parts of his body into various weapons, and even creating clones of himself.
If he's able to touch you with his hands, he can manipulate your souls, which causes irreversible damage and automatically kills anyone who doesn’t know how to protect their own soul. Stronger opponents in the series tend to know how to do so, so in these cases, quick taps may only blow up a limb or half of someone's face. He can also collect humans that he manipulates and turn them into weapons that he can use for himself. He can also merge the souls of humans and fuel them with his cursed energy to send them out with great force. The Polymorphic Soul Isomer allows him to force multiple souls into one body, which are glass cannons who’re physically powerful but very frail.
He also has a lethal domain expansion, which allows him to manipulate the souls of anyone within the domain without even touching them. He’s also showed the skill to perform a 0.2 domain expansion, which combines the two step process of imposing an innate domain into reality and automatically hitting all targets within the domain expansion with his cursed technique.
Finally, he has the Instant Spirit Body of Distorted Killing, which is a transformation where he trades off the ability to freely manipulate his body(besides his tendrils) in order to double all of his stats. He learned this ability after hitting black flash twice, which is a universal application of cursed energy that multiplies the power of a strike by 2.5* if cursed energy is applied to a strike in a millionth of a second. This also causes the user to enter the “zone” which boosts their potential by 120% and makes it far easier to perform black flash again.
In terms of physical stats, in his base he’s slightly above Itadori, and in his ISBODK transformation his stats are doubled, and in the fan books it was said that if he fought Itadori at full health then he would have curb stomped him. The fan books also say that Kenjaku would have some trouble fighting Mahito, which implies a level of relativity in stats.
Now, within the actual events of the verse, he ended up fusing Mahito within a Uzumaki and extracted his technique in order to start the culling games, but as we’re using a composite Kenjaku, Kenjaku can utilize Mahito in two different ways.
Summon Mahito, which adds a deadly and versatile opponent to the battle
Extract his Cursed technique.
The second way would probably be worse, as techniques extracted with Uzumaki can be used only once, which means that Kenjaku could use the ability in three different ways.
Use it to instantly kill/massively damage his opponent once he gets up close
Use it one time to manipulate his body so that he can boosts his stats and/or dodge an attack
Use it one time in order to completely nullify the damage of an attack.
It’s also likely that he would be able to use Mahitos domain expansion, as he used the domain expansion of his gravity technique, which was extracted, although I acknowledge that this is sort of an iffy claim.
I think it's likely that he’d summon Mahito, rather than extract his technique. Kenjakus Physicals.
Kenjakus AP.
Kenjaku has only really had one real fight, and he mainly fought utilizing gravity and concentrated blasts, so this will be less of a showcase of his feats and more of simply powerscaling him to other characters in the verse. I believe that this scaling is justified because-
He’s a Special Grade Sorcerer, who scales relative to other special grade sorcerers who either defeated people on this list or was said to be able to match people on this list(I.E Yuta Matching Ishigori in raw power and tanking his most powerful attacks on multiple occasions)
Fanbook statements which show that he would beat people on this list, and said characters were able to defeat people on this list(I.E. Gege stating that he could beat Jogo 1v1)
He soloed Yuki(a special grade) Tengen(the most powerful barrier user in the series) and Choso(a top tier grade 1)
There’s a multitude of statements about special grades which indicate that they can solo nations alone, which indicate that they could fight off entire militaries, as well as dealing with any sorcerers and cursed spirits that came after them. It was also said recently that Gojo could be used as an energy source that could fuel an entire nation. Gojo is somewhat above other special grade sorcerers, but various characters in the series has still tanked his attacks on multiple occasions, so Kenjaku scaling to this wouldn’t be a reach.
Given these reasons, I see no reason why Kenjaku shouldn’t scale to/above these attacks. I’ll post the scans now.
Sure, but this entire fight is an outlier. This is the first time that we see two experienced special grade sorcerers fight to the death, this is the first time we even see these two characters fight, they fight in an area away from civilians, and this fight has the highest stakes in the entire series(if Kenjaku fused with Tengen he could end all of civilization) and towards the end, they have to pour out all of their power and use every useful technique in order to counter/create the black hole. There’s only 3 villains in the entire series that are SG level, all three had no desire to destroy the planet and one isn’t even at full power. The other three are good guys, and their team includes Gojo, who’s the strongest character in the series. Up until this arc, most of the fights have been between mid tier characters and the few fights that have high tiers are the high tiers not going all out. The series is starting to ramp up its scaling anyways, right before the Kenjaku vs Yuki miniarc, with the statement about Gojo being able to power an entire nation. The series is approaching its final story arcs, and in typical shonen fashion, this usually means that the villains get way bigger and stronger. I understand why some people would want to wait for more feats before they agreed with a planet level Kenjaku, but currently, I don’t see any reason on why I should just completely ignore this feat, given the all of the reasons above. It’s not like these characters are consistently outputting these levels of destructive output(because a majority of feats like this in fiction series are extremely rare events) they all went all out in an environment that allowed them to win a battle for their lives and for the future of humanity.
Due to these five reasons (especially point 1, 2 and 5) I believe that Kenjaku is Multi-Continental to Large Planet Level. Even if you want to disregard this, he should scale somewhat to Gojo whos raw energy output is enough to power up America alone, which would require him to output MCB+ levels of energy per second(and generally in fights, CE gets concentrated and charged up longer for stronger attacks, and CE can be fueled into techniques to increase their output even more.)
If you disregard all of this information as just being an outlier, I’ll treat your series with the same level of skepticism and scrutiny.
Kenjakus and Narutos Speed
Because this is a jujutsu kaisen discussion, I already know where this will go. Subsonic Naoya, Mach 3 Naoya, etc.
Instead, for now, I’m simply going to post a variety of speed feats in the series, and I'd like for you to think about how consistent it is.
So here we have multiple instances of Awakened Maki being blitzed by subsonic attacks, while BOS Maki reacted to multiple subsonic attacks. Characters which scale significantly below Toji/Awakening Maki in stats reacting to subsonic and supersonic+ attacks multiple times. Awakened Maki failed to dodge a Mach 3 attack while she reacted to a point blank bullet. This is highly inconsistent, but so are speeds in the majority of action shonens.
Whether you choose to wave away anti-feats or accept outliers generally comes down to bias, although there’s other ways to measure whether or not a feat should be accepted, by looking at a combination of feats, fancalcs, consistency author statements, narrator statements, character statements, etc. Generally, I tend to focus more on feats and consistency. Mosts series contains outliers which cant be reconciled, but depending on the nature of it, it may be accepted or completely dismissed. Let's look at Naruto(part 1)
Adult Kakishi struggling against Itachi[https://xfs-224.batcg.org/comic/7001/5f4458bbf90a20a2430be6af/1300635_781654_760_1200.png?acc=SbD9rUctmVILxkYr6Kc-uw&exp=1673612746]
Itachi getting blitzed by lightining[https://youtu.be/R5ji269zW0I]
Itachi struggling against sound attacks[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHOANqSXUAAc5Bz?format=jpg&name=large]
However, a majority of people will still try to scale Part 1 Naruto Characters to being consistently High Hypersonic + MHS, even when the amount of feats are small or comes from iffy fancals. Jujutsu Kaisen actually has more hypersonic feats and they're actually consistent
as well the Geto blocking bullets feat and Maki catching a bullet feat that i posted earlier.
If I really wanted to, I could also use Geto resisting being pulled into a black hole as proof of him being relatavistic, but we both know thats wank.
In fact, I’d make the case that the JJKverse has a stronger claim of having hypersonic reaction timing, given that most of these feats are consistent. Gojo, Kenjaku and Hakari are all high-tiers, and if Special Grade sorcerers can solo nations, this implies that they have the ability to fend off entire army units and squadrons. Megumi isn’t a top tier, but hes a Grade 1 in strength, and although he struggles at first with the explosions, he starts to adapt to the speed throughout the fight.
Narutos AP and Versatility
I’ve written enough today, and I’ll expect you to articulate more on Narutos skills and power, but I’ll just say that I have Part 1 Narutos AP around City Block - Small Town Level. Even if you lowball Kenjaku, he should still have more raw power and defense than Naruto, so now I'll talk about Narutos abilities, and how Kenjaku counters them.
Ability: Shadow Clone Justu. This ability allows Naruto to create many clones of himself, although he has to split his chakra between them.
Counter: Kenjakus base gravity reversal technique, or his domain expansion, completely negs this ability. Most Shadow Clones get negged in a hit, and Naruto would also end up dying if he was within the radius of the domain expansion. Kurorushis roach manipulation gives him huge AOE and each shadow clone just gives him more fuel to produce more roaches. Mahito also can manipulate his body's size to deal with huge crowds of shadow clones, and Ganesha can possibly just “remove” Narutos ability, or at the very least, “remove” the clones from his presence and kill them.
Ability: Rasengan. Basically a close ranged energy ball that does damage when it hits the opponent.
Counter: Kenjakus Gravity Manipulation + Ganesha will stop Naruto before he even gets up close.
Ability: Gamabunta. A huge frog that Naruto can summon to attack people.
Counter: Mahitos Idle Transformation kills it, Ganesha “removes” the summon or Gamabunta, and Kenjaku could just kill it with his gravity DE or nullify the ability using domain amplification.
Kenjakus Gameplan.
The Game Plan is simple. Kenjaku will summon Ganesha, Kurorushi and Mahito. Naruto will either start by trying to get closer, maybe opening up by summoning shadow clones, which Kurorushi and Mahito would quickly make work of. Mahito would just need to get close enough and trap him within a domain expansion, which would kill him. In the worst case scenario, if Narutos is able to get past the two, Ganesha would target them, sending him all of the way up into the sky, and Kurorushi and Mahito would just attack him while he hopelessly falls down from the sky until death. If Gamabunta is summoned, Ganesha targets him or Mahito transforms into something small until he can get close to him and then uses IT on him. Narutos only has close ranged attacks, and Kenjaku simply has too many ways of shutting him down and killing him.
I don't expect you to respond to every single point I made in this thread, but I expect you to at least respond to
How can Naruto even get close to Kenjaku, given the existence of his gravity techniques and Ganesha?
If we treat the Narutoverse with the same level of scrutiny and skepticism that you treat the JJKverse with when it comes to speed and AP, can you prove that Naruto has an abundance of legitimate evidence that shows that he’s significantly faster and stronger?
How can Naruto deal with Kurorushi, Smallpox Deity and Mahito attacking him at the same time while he tries to deal with Kenjaku?
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