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#1 Posted by Temporal_Shift (3640 posts) - - Show Bio

Ichigo and Ichiebi represented by @unlimited1

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Naruto and Sasuke represented by myself

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Rules:

  • the fight starts 50 meters apart.
  • the fight ends in death, KO, or incapacitation
  • no knowledge or prep.

Battleground:

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This is a CAV if you want to vote ask to be tagged, vote for the best argument no who you believe is stronger.

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#2 Posted by Temporal_Shift (3640 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Jatom22 (957 posts) - - Show Bio

This will be good. Good luck to both

Online
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#4 Edited by Unlimited1 (648 posts) - - Show Bio

@temporal_shift:

Please restrict Genjutsu and Reiatsu crush.

I can go first if you like.

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#5 Posted by Temporal_Shift (3640 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by Unlimited1 (648 posts) - - Show Bio

@temporal_shift: Its really annoying to debate them, but if you truly want to, then its fine with me.

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#7 Posted by Unlimited1 (648 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by MessiahBlack9 (126 posts) - - Show Bio

T4Votes pls

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#9 Posted by deactivated-5b17f1b84ea5f (1752 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#10 Edited by Unlimited1 (648 posts) - - Show Bio

General Information: Bleach scaling

When power scaling Bleach characters, there are a few important statements that are commonly used and are likely to come up many times in this debate. The first one is the following:

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This is the "Bankai multiplier" and it is used to estimate the increase in power gained from activating Bankai.

The second scan is of no less importance and will be used often as well:

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A Shinigami cannot cut a massively superior opponent due to the difference in their spiritual pressure.

Ichigo Kurosaki

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Forms

Shikai: The first release of Ichigo's Zanpakutō (spirit weapon), Zangetsu.

Bankai: The second release of Zangetsu which increases Ichigo's strength and speed.

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Hollow Mask: While wearing the mask, Ichigo's Hollow powers supplement his Shinigami powers, giving him a vast increase in both strength and speed.

True Shikai: After his original Shikai is broken,Ichigo, coming to terms with his powers, gains access to his true Zanpakutō (spirit weapon), which had been suppressed all this time.

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Fused hollow form: After Ichigo learned the truth about the source of his soul reaper powers and reforged his Zanpakutō, his Hollow and Quincy came into balance with one another. However, when Ichigo is exposed to large amounts of Quincy spirit energy, this balance will be disrupted, and Ichigo can meld with his inner Hollow, resulting in a powerful transformation.

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Speed

To establish the speed of Bleach high tiers and Ichigo's speed in particular I will start from the very beginning, with a feat taken from early in the manga. Take a look:

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In this scan, a vice captain named Matsumoto successfully reacted to and blocked captain Gin's Shinso, a Zanpakutō (spirit weapon) with the ability to rapidly expand or contract. Later in the story Gin states his Bankai, which is an improved version of his Shikai (the first release of the blade, which he used in the previous feat) could extend at 500 times the speed of sound. After applying Bankai multipliers we get the vice captain Matsumoto could react to and block an attack moving at Mach 50.

Ichigo is of course, much faster than that, as he can easily blitz three vice captains right after his Bankai training:

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Next, after getting some more practice with his powers Ichigo dodges the aforementioned Mach 500 attack while in Bankai, some consistency right here:

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But Ichigo can do better, in a more impressive showing of speed and while recovering from injury in his base form, Ichigo instinctively reacts to a punch from "Lightning Fast Tenjirō" who previously blitzed Suì-Fēng, one of the fastest captains. Remember that even the weakest captains are leagues above Mach 50.

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To end this section I will present one of the most important and impressive speed feats in Bleach, in which Ichigo redirects lightning from very close range in his true Shikai.

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Where is the lightning? you might be asking, well the lightning shaped arrow on the left is actually real lightning! However, we all know not every lightning shaped projectile in fiction is real lightning so some kind of proof must be found if we are to consider it so. In the following scan it is stated that the bolts contain 5 Gigajouls of energy which is the approximate amount of energy true lightning contains, this makes it very clear that the author meant for it to be real lightning.

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What is even more interesting is that even the weak Sternritter that fought Ichigo were able to dodge the lightning after Ichigo redirected back at them, these Sternritter are around captain level which means an average captain is a lightning timer in Shikai.

Summary: Speed

  • Mach 500<masked Bankai Ichigo<Dangai Ichigo=Base true Shikai<merged hollow form (true Shikai)<merged hollow form (true Bankai)
  • Point blank Lightning timing<Merged hollow form (true Shikai)<Merged hollow form (True Bankai)
  • Mach 50< Suì-Fēng/Lightning timing< Tenjiro=Recovering Base Ichigo<Base Ichigo<Shikai Ichigo<Bankai Ichigo<masked Bankai Ichigo<Dangai Ichigo=true Shikai (Base)<merged hollow form (true Shikai)<merged hollow form (true Bankai)

Power

Cutting power is something Bleach characters excel at and Naruto characters have a very hard time dealing with. To showcase their impressive power, I will start by presenting another feat from early in the manga:

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The air pressure from the clash between Shikai Ichigo and a heavily suppressed base Kenpachi Zaraki destroyed multiple buildings. Of course, the most of the force each fighter applied was cancelled by the opposite force applied by other fighter, from this we can infer that the visible destruction was caused by only a small fraction of the fighters full power.

A more impressive air pressure feat was preformed by Dangai Ichigo when he fought Aizen. He was able to completely destroy a hill with the air pressure created by his swing, note that as I previously explained, sword clashes significantly reduce the amount of visible destruction.

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And while these are great feats I will have to use scaling to showcase Ichigo's true power. To do so, I will first determine the power level of Yhwach, one of the strongest characters in the series. Yhwach in his base form he was able to one shot captain Yamamoto and steal his Bankai which can destroy the entire souls society with its passive heat.

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Soul society is comprised of 360 districts plus the Seireitei which serves as the capitol. Districts are no longer used in the Japanese administrative system, but they are roughly equal to the districts of the house of representatives, of which there are 306. Based on this information and the way soul society is portrayed throughout the series, it is safe to assume the size of soul society is roughly equal to the size of Japan (364,485 square kilometers of land). This implies that Yamamoto is comfortably country level. Note that the purpose of Yamamoto's Bankai is to condense the heat, not to expand it and that the possible destruction is only a side effect of the dangerous release, this means Yamamoto might be even more powerful.

After proving he is comparable to Yamamoto, Yhwach continues his murder spree and one shots Ichibe, the leader of squad zero. Squad Zero contains five members who are all former captains and are tasked with protecting and serving the soul king. The combined power of squad zero is stated to be far grater than the power of the 13 court guards squads (all captains in soul society and their subordinates), as the captain of squad zero and the strongest member by a very large margin, Ichibe should be superior to the former captain of the 13 court guards, Yamamoto. This is further supported by how easily Shikai Ichibe rag-dolls Yhwach before Yhwach unleashes "The Almighty" (his broken hax ability)

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So Yhwach is a bit above country level at base, but is that the full extent of his power? Absolutely not, as after preforming these feats he absorbs the power of five of the most powerful characters in the verse:

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These Characters are:

  1. True Shikai Ichigo (only his quincy powers)
  2. Gerard Valkyrie
  3. Mimihagi
  4. The soul king
  5. Jugram Haschwalth

Gerard Valkyrie is one of the strongest Sternritter capable of matching Shikai Kenpachi Zaraki in his base form. Kenpachi in his (Eos) base form was able to destroy a huge meteor and reduce it to rubble.

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This is a country level feat. But to prove that I will have to use a calculation, I am aware of the general dislike of calculations in comic vine, but this one is simple and straightforward so I hope you will be willing to at least consider it. This calculation was originally preformed by Vs Battle Wiki user Piercer of Heaven and all credit goes to him.

Seireitei Scaling

Ichigo=2 Pixels=1.74 m

Stand=116 Pixels=100.92

Sokyoku Hill=969 Pixels=2,963.37818181818 m

Sokyoku Hill Height=45 Pixels=2,963.37818181818 m

Seireitei Diameter=1461 Pixels=96,211.0116363636 m

Seireitei Diameter=1660 Pixels=96,211.0116363636

Seireitei Height=815 Pixels=47,236.1292070098

Meteor

Seireitei Height=475 Pixels=47,236.1292070098 m

Meteor Diameter=457 Pixels=45,446.1285212705 m

Meteor Radius=22,723.0642606352 m

It's a sphere so:

Volume=49,146,127,100,000 m^3=49,146,127,100,000,000,000 cm^3

Violent fragmentation 69 joules/cm^3

E=3,391,082,769,900,000,000,000

This is borderline small country level already. Considering it was done casually and while Kenpachi was wearing his eye-patch (a device that consumes his spiritual energy), it stands to reason Kenpachi is country level in Shikai.

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Gerard was able to fight with Shikai Kenpachi on equal ground, matching his monstrous power.

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Later, Gerard attained two more powerful forms, his original form not even holding a candle to the last one. Only then Yhwach absorbed his power.

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But Gerard's power pale in comparison to the power of the soul king, who posses such immense spiritual energy that after absorbing him Yhwach said he feels like he has an absolute excess of power. If Yhwach believes the soul king power is limitless compared to the power he used to defeat Yamamoto and Ichibe, it must be truly great.

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In addition to all of that he also absorbed the right hand of the soul king Mimihagi and his most trusted servant Jugram Haschwalth, both very powerful high tiers in the verse. He later absorbed Ichigo's Quincy powers as well gaining an unknown amount of power. So what does this have to do with Ichigo? Well, there is a lot of evidence implying that true Shikai merged hollow Ichigo is about on par with Yhwach and that true Bankai merged hollow Ichigo may be even more powerful than him. First, Yhwach compliments Ichigo's power multiple times, saying it is magnificent and that he has no room for error. Secondly, Ichigo was able to one shot Yhwach twice and according to the scaling statement I already presented, in order to cut someone in Bleach you must have comparable spiritual power.

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Summary

  • Cutting multiple buildings with air pressure of a clash<Bankai Ichigo<masked Bankai Ichigo<Dangai Ichigo=true Shikai Ichigo<merged hollow form (true Shikai)<merged hollow form (true Bankai)
  • Obliterating a hill with the air pressure of a clash=true Shikai Ichigo<merged hollow form (true Shikai)<merged hollow form (true Bankai)
  • Country level+limitless power (compared to country level)+Power much greater than country level+the power of two high tiers=merged hollow form (true Shikai)<merged hollow form (true Bankai)

Durability

Like many HST characters, Ichigo doesn't have many durability feats, but what he has is still enough to prove he will be very hard to take down. His first major durability feat can be found in Ichigo's fight against Ulquiorra Cifer. During the fight Ulquiorra attacked Ichigo with a technique named "Lance of Lightning" a spear made of spiritual energy that produces an incredibly destructive explosion if thrown. Instead of throwing the spear, Ulquiorra attacks Ichigo with it directly, but Ichigo tanks the attack without suffering any damage.

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The explosion was so large, it dwarfed Las Noches, a massive palace 5.46 kilometers long. The scaling is as follows:

Ulquiorra = 14 px = 1.7 m

Width of Column = 351 px = 42 m

Width of column (2) = 5 px = 42 m

Length of Las Noches = 650 px = 5460 m = 5.46 km

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Later in the series, Ichigo tanked a similar but much more powerful attacked fired by monster Aizen, What makes it a notable feat is that Aizen was already much stronger than Ulquiorra in his base form as Ulquiorra, together with a group of other characters, (some of which are more powerful than him) served Aizen without question, fearing his immense power.

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Summary

  • Tanking an energy blast that dwarfs a fortress more than five kilometers long<Dangai Ichigo=true Shikai Ichigo<merged hollow form (true Shikai)<merged hollow form (true Bankai)
  • Tanking an energy blast that dwarfs a fortress more than five kilometers long<Base Aizen<Chrysalis Aizen<Transcendent Aizen< tanking monster Aizen Cero=Dangai Ichigo=true Shikai Ichigo<merged hollow form (true Shikai)<merged hollow form (true Bankai)

Getsuga Tensho

Simple and basic energy projection. Ichigo explains it well.

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Ichibe Hyosube

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Speed

Ichibe is surprisingly fast, being able to traverse massive distances near instantly and keep up with the top fighters of the bleach verse. Despite the relatively low amount of chapters he appears in, we have a few very impressive speed feats to go on, the most important one is found in his battle against Yhwach, where he sends him flying thousands of kilometers away, and immediately catches up to him. Ichibe's ability to keep up with an object flying in massively hyper sonic speeds while having a conversation, never losing track of his target implies he can keep up with almost anyone.

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Ri (also known as the Japanese Mile) is a unit of length. 1 Ri = 3.927 km. 1,000 Ri = 3927 km. The time frame of the feat is hard to determine, but based on the amount of actions Yhwach preformed, it is safe to assume it is a few seconds at most.

But if that's not enough for you, Ichibe was able to casually block to one of Yhwach's fastest attacks. If he can block an holy arrow that easily, when even the holy arrow of the weakest named members in his army are lightning speed, he can react to most projectiles.

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And of course, we cam always scale him from Bankai Ichigo mach 500 feat, as he was the strongest soul reaper before the last arc, and should be way above Bankai Ichigo in power.

Spirit weapon: Ichimonji

Base

In its base form, Ichimonji doesn't cut flesh, it cuts names. for example, if Ichibe lands a blow on his opponent's arm, he can reduce the capabilities of that arm by half if he cuts its name in half to Ar and if he cuts his opponents entire body, their power will be reduced by half.

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Shikai

In its Shikai, Ichimonji releases ink and anything that touches the ink loses its name and thus, its power. This is not the only ability his Shikai has, the second ability grants him control of all the "black" in the world, this black becomes his ink, making taking peoples name with his Shikai extremely easy.

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Evolved Shikai (Bankai)

Ichibe can give and change the name of targets who have been struck by the ink of Ichimonji by writing kanji on their body; doing so gives his target the properties and powers of the name granted. For example, by changing their name to "Black Ant" (Kuroari), his opponent would be as weak and powerless as an ant.

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Ultimate move- Futen Taisatsuryō (Slaughterous Mausoleum of Halted Reincarnation)

After a short incantation, Ichibe uses the black in his opponents body to erase his opponents from existence. He wont even reincarnate (quite fitting when the enemies are the reincarnation of two legendary historical figures)

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Other abilities

Aside from the spirit hands I already posted in the speed sections, Ichibe can use some powerful Kido (spirit spells). With Ura Hadō: Sannodō — Teppūsatsu, he was able to shatter Yhwach's Blut vane, his strongest defensive ability.

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And Yhwach spiritual power (before absorbing the powers of multiple tiers) was comparable to Yamamoto country level spiritual energy, which I already discussed in Ichigo's power section.

Another very powerful ability Ichibe has is his self resurrection, he can completely reconstruct his body after being killed. Their is only one condition: Someone must say his name out loud, giving him some of their energy. Luckily, Ichigo knows Ichibe's name and can resurrect him if need be.

Durability

Ichibe doesn't really have traditional durability feats, so for the most part I will just scale him from Dangai Ichigo, who should be inferior to him based on their portrayal and general performance. However, Ichibe does have one interesting durability feat, in which he resists Yhwach's attempt to control his body using his Blut (a form of spirit energy manipulation) this further proves that Ichibe's spirit energy can protect him from powerful attacks.

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#11 Posted by Unlimited1 (648 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Gear4God (4013 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh dear... Thank Allah this is a CaV.

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#13 Posted by BrownZeus (678 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh. A Bleach vs Naruto CAV. T4V.

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#14 Posted by ovy7 (857 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be interesting. T4V please.

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#15 Posted by Claymore_Fools (697 posts) - - Show Bio

@gear4god said:

Oh dear... Thank Allah this is a CaV.

Lol facts. This would have been a nasty sh1tstorm with everything that's been going on with Naruto v Bleach threads lately.

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#16 Posted by Unlimited1 (648 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Unlimited1 (648 posts) - - Show Bio

@temporal_shift: Man, if you wont respond I will ask someone to replace you.

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#18 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (1661 posts) - - Show Bio

@unlimited1:

He hasn’t been active for a while so I suggest you do find someone else this CAV is a must see.