The heat is on.
CaV N52 Superman(GhostRavage) vs Thor(Thor_Parker82)GR won!
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Yup, this is still going the exact way I thought it would. Complete destruction. Great debating points. Cheers mate.
@sodamyat said:
Yup, this is still going the exact way I thought it would. Complete destruction. Great debating points. Cheers mate.
Round 3
It's not nit picking, it's showing how consistent is Thor's portrayal as a slow character by comic standards, street levelers like Captain America have danced and claimed Thor is slow, while at the same time Thor himself claiming someone like Wolverine is actually faster than, forwardly stating he wouldn't last that long against him in that type of scenario if he didn't have a thick asgardian skin. Anyways, to cite his fight with Wolverine, let's mention Wolverine vs. Thor from 2009...
Pretty much everyone who knows about Thor agree that his fight against Wolverine was a low showing, Logan has no feats to suggest he is as fast as Thor, let alone being faster than him, and him claiming that Wolverine is faster is bullsh*t, a statement with no consistency at all, Thor one shotted Dario Agger and he stated he was as strong as Hulk, then I guess if we always go by statements Odinson should one shot Hulk with a single punch.
As for Steve being faster than Thor, that´s also extremely wrong, in the following scans Thor was powerless and not only did he keep up with no trouble at all with Captain America, he actually saved him. And it is important to note again that Thor was powerless, meaning he didn´t have his superhuman speed, yet he was still able to keep up with Cap without any problem, so if we give him his godly powers, it´s safe to assume he is MUCH faster than Steve.
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He even states Wolverine is dodging his fiercest blows, someone who has the reaction speed you're actually trying to advocate for here shouldn't have any problems at all hitting Wolverine. I mean, after all, you're basing your argument on Thor's supposed lightning fast reflexes and FTL combat speed, which is nonsense to say the least. Either way, the next part of your argument is seriously flawed and seemingly biased not only because Norrin's speed is not underrated but objectively addressed in the forums, but the fact Thor doesn't really keep up with him and in the scans you're showing Surfer's board knocks him around every single time with no apparent reaction from Thor's part. Hell, it's even a worse showing for you considering all you'e proving here is that Thor can actually be blitzed by fast opponents time and time again. Norrin has his feats, but he surely does not utilize his speed intelligently while fighting and rarely does, which in all honesty is hardly visible in Thor's fights. Regardless, i'm not trying to downgrade Thor to the point fo being slower than street levelers (which he is), but the fact he's blatantly below Superman in combat and reaction speed by quite a wide margin, so wide it's would make this battle almost impossible for Thor to keep up with. So put down your gauntlets and get around the argument, because claiming i'm somehow nitpicking when the same thing can be said about you is rather unpractical, regardless, there are more instance of Thor being slow than not so don't be difficult.
I never said Thor has FTL combat speed, but he has enough to react to Superman and land some hits. And if you go and take a look at most of Norrin´s battles in the forum, he is underrated in his speed, only in his speed, and he actually uses his combat speed most of the times, just look at some of the scans I posted in my previous post, but just so you can see that I have plenty of instances of Surfer using his combat speed, here are more instances of Norrin using his combat speed
- Flies into a ship at the speed of light to break through its defenses.
- Flies around an enemy at faster than light speeds.
- Fights multiple enemies without them being able to land a hit on him.
- Saves the Impossible Man and destroys several starship's weapons in super speed.
- Avoids a barrage of laser beams.
- Fighting multiple enemies in super-speed and finishes them off with a large blast.
- Visits almost every capital on Earth within seconds and easily dodges anti-air fire.
All the times Surfer used his board to speedblitz Thor, he attacked him from his back, Thor was never paying attention to the board, he was too busy fighting Norrin and he took advantage from that and sucker punched/speedblitzed him while he wasn´t even looking at the board. Trying to say Thor is slower than street levelers is absolutely ridiculous buddy.
There is no evidence at all to imply Sentry was going FTL and his Siege fight was rather fast, not in the essence of speed, but time. Either way, did you missed the fact Sentry actually blitzed him? He was blatantly flying so fast he couldn't react and only managed to do so when he touched the ground and considering even Ares managed to tag Sentry during Siege means he wasn't utilizing his speed like he's supposed, let alone consistency affecting Sentry's capabilities of blitzing more times than not, ESPECIALLY, against slow characters.
There actually is, Sentry has been shown to be FTL, and he was bloodlusted during Siege, so he had no reason at all to hold back his speed. I know Sentry did blitz him, but the fact that Thor managed to react immediately after he was punched shows he isn´t slow at all, but in fact, he is fast.
Then if you're OK with Brevoort's own words why would you keep arguing Thor can react to Superman? That precise lack of speed is actually the speed necessary to dodge or block Superman's punches, which Thor has no feats to imply that and most of the feats you've used here can't even be compared to a blitz or flat out reaction against speed blitz. This AoE attacks you're trying to showcase won't take place in this match given Thor would be already hard pressed keeping up his concentration against a blitzing Clark either way, Thor is NOT using that kind of lightning (and by "that kind" i mean the really big ones) in this match as he only uses that type of lightning against cosmic threats and quite powerful opponents which are well beyond Superman's tier and Thor's tier. It can't be applied here as you want, and you were the one claiming an in-character battle benefits you more than it does to me. Either way, i can agree with Superman being seriously damaged or flat out KO'd if one of those lightnings hit him, i mean, one of them was the size of the Earth, but given the fact that one in specific was used against a multiversal threat which already ate 98% of the entire multiverse means he SURELY isn't using that thing here, it's just reaching to a very high degree... Either way, Thor isn't shooting lightnings beyond city level, let alone continent level in this match, he wouldn't have time either so take it as you will, moving on...
Because Thor has plenty of feats to suggest he can react to Clark´s attacks, plenty of people slower than Supes have reacted to him and managed to punch him, I am going to mention some of them in a moment, and provide scans so everyone can see Clark isn´t untouchable like you are trying to make him seem.
The AoE attacks are a perfectly good move and you have failed to counter why he wouldn´t be able to use them, Superman won´t speedblitz at the beggining of the fight, and even if he did, the only thing Thor has to do is to think about releasing an omnidirectional lightning, I fail to see why he wouldn´t do that if he starts to get overwhelmed by Clark´s speed. You also have failed to prove your notion that his omnidirectional lightning isn´t as strong as his directed lightning, which I will address that point in a moment.
It was established that both opponents know they are fighting a powerful foe, so I fail to see why Thor wouldn´t use powerful lightnings, of course he isn´t going to use the one he did against Chaos King, but he certainly can and would use the ones he released against Galactus and Celestials. Also Thor´s directed lightnings can be planet busting without affecting the surrounding or actually busting the planet, it´s comic book logic, a planet busting attack doesn´t necessarily busts the planet, and I think that´s mostly because it´s directed towards a specific person.
Really, it's almost irrefutable that Thor has been consistently a slow character than not and the fact you're implying i'm somehow nit picking instance whereas i have plenty more than you showcasing otherwise means consistency is on my side. It's not nit pick, it's simply pointing out the things most Thor fans neglect even when facts are straight up threw at their faces.
That´s a misconception mostly made by people who don´t know Thor very well, he isn´t slow, he may not be the fastest character but he´s nowhere near slow. Thor fans neglect that Odinson is slow because we actually know him, he isn´t slow, and trying to imply he is even slower than street levelers is ridiculous.
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- Thor is the only character in The Avengers capable of seeing Hermes.
- Thor finishes a tower in seconds, he was moving so fast that he became a blur to others.
- Gladiator, the same guy who has gone 100 times FTL and has fought Hyperion in nanoseconds, couldn´t dodge Thor´s hits.
- Thor was moving so fast that Heimdall, the guy who is capable of seeing every corner of the universe lost him due to how fast he was.
(There´s context to it buddy, I suggest you not to post something about the character you are debating against if you don´t know the context, that only makes you look bad.
In the next issue, Thor explains he was weakened and wasn´t physically good for combat, then procceded to stomp Angela and would have killed her if it wasn´t for Odin´s interruption.) -Thor Parker 82
LMAO! I'm probably the only guy in this site which you can't exploit context against. I'm actually aware and i was prepared to deal with this blatant yet cheap cop out Thor fans use to debunk something that has been seriously established in comics. Not only Thor wasn't weakened but "exhausted" but the fact it makes no sense given Thor's stamina. That said, it was under a different writer namely Matt Fraction in the apparent attempt to give Thor some respect back, which wasn't entirely necessary considering he'll still be a slow character. Anyways, to prove my point let's cite Mighty Thor #12 part 5, where Volstagg narrates a fight which the Warrior's Three fought alongside Thor and lasted 40 days with no sleep, food, water nor rest whatsoever for them and lasted 80 days with the same lack of factors for Thor...
Thor states he was weakened and wasn´t physically good for combat, he was blasted by a machine from the tenth realm, a machine with unkown properties and unknown power, so that may be the reason he was weakened, I have heard many people state that it was that blast which weakened Thor, which is the best explanation considering he stomped Angela in his next encounter, how do you explain that ? The only reasonable explanation is that Thor was actually weakened in his first fight against her, then we get to see how a real fight between the two of them would be, and Thor almost killed her.
He didn't fail to use his speed, he flat out didn't use it because the plot didn't require it, moreover he actually used his speed against H'el and Cheetah, but the fact both of them are faster than him doesn't really undersell his abilities, furthermore, did you actually implied Superman didn't try to use his speed against Graves? Not only Graves was someone the justice league actually saved before becoming an villain, but the fact his power set let him suck on people's life essence like a sponge and almost turned Superman into a skeleton, he didn't use his speed because he couldn't not because he wouldn't. Ocean Master is only 1 instance against several i already showcased... Talking about nit pick.
When I say he failed to use his speed, I mean he just decided not to use it, when doing so could have easily end the entire conflict. Clark indeed used his speed against H´el, but not at the beggining of the fight like you claim he "always" does, when they started fighting, Clark never tried to speedblitz, I know H´el is much faster than Supes, but that´s irrelevant to my point, which is that Superman doesn´t speedblitz at the beggining of fights.
And yes, Superman failed to use his speed against Graves. I am well aware that the Justice League previously saved him, he actually wrote a book about them, I have read every New 52 Justice League issue so far, and I know Graves was sucking his life essence, but when Green Lantern broke that connection, Clark had a chance to speedblitz Graves, and that would have ended the conflict, yet he didn´t.
I'm positive i can find more instance of him using his speed off the bat than the other way around, moreover, you're really trying hard and overlook how i specifically stated both know they'll be fighting a powerful opponent and both are focused, the fact Superman could very easily opt to simply blitz from the beginning like he has done, let alone taking into account he knows the guy he'll be fighting can take his punches, doesn't really give you space to exploit CIS in MY fight. Hell, let's cite Action Comics #22 where he flat out states he won't give his adversary the benefit of doubt and he's going straight for aggressiveness... FAST aggressiveness.
I am pretty sure you won´t be able to, there are waaaay to many instances where Superman didn´t use his speed at the beggining of a fight, he will probably start using it later in the fight, but not at the beggining, and even if he uses his speed, Thor can still use the omnidirectional lightning to stun him and then proceed to use more powerfull strikes and/or lightnings.
You're basing your argument completely off petty arguments towards Superman's supposed character while at the same time wasting your time with something you won't really come on top instead of getting around the argument of speed (which i'm positive you won't be able to anyways) with viable, let alone valid counters besides speculating about Superman's CIS which has been addressed from the beginning given the stipulations you keep conveniently overlooking.
I have actually got around your speed argument, I have shown plenty of instances of Thor reacting to extremely fast characters such as Sentry, Surfer and Gladiator, so I don´t see why it would be a problem reacting to Clark, especially when slower people than Odinson have tagged Supes.
- Helspont tagged him with a blast, there is no indication that the blast was faster than lightning.
- A fodder robot striked him with his tail.
- Spence Becker´s daughter, a girl with no noticeable speed feats punched him.
- Same girl punches him several times during the same issue.
All these during the Secret and Lies TPB
It is not. Thor can't hit Superman so his planet busting potential wouldn't be able to be showcased to begin with yet at this point you keep neglecting this fact by showing Thor keeping up with speedsters while they weren't using their speed. Moreover, Thor isn't busting any planets nor using such force given all the context behind the instances you're citing like Thor fighting Celestials or flat out Galactus or Mikaboshi to use the lightnings you're mentioning here, anyways, in all honesty mate, i think you should focus your arguments on proving why Thor will actually use those lightnings instead of proving Superman will be damaged by them which i already agreed with you but noted Superman will be dodging them making our agreement rather irrelevant.
Thor can and will hit Superman with both lightning and his fists/mjolnir. You keep acting like Clark is untouchable which he certainly isn´t, waaaaay too many people have tagged him, and I am going to mention some of them in a moment. Thor can and will use planet busting strikes against Superman, we agreed they both know they are fighting a powerful foe, so I fail to see why Thor wouldn´t use powerful strikes, Anyways, I think you are confusing some things, planet busting strikes don´t necessarily bust the planet the battle takes place in, it´s comic book logic.
As i knew you would probably do, you're asking for very specific instances which i'm unable to showcase here. The instance you're citing is Justice League #16 and Superman wasn't even paying attention to him, he was too busy saving Wonder Woman and dealing with an entire Atlantean invasion in the issue, same happened to Wonder Woman who was able to keep up with Super Girl which at the same time manage to keep up with Flash whilst holding back. Either way, i will seriously ask you to check the context of things before claiming things, as long as your context is impeccable we shouldn't have any problems nor waste of time here. I don't feel like drawing my argument far enough to completely disregard my main point by posting scans of the issue in question to obliterate your out of context claims.
I know the context of that instance, but at the moment Ocean Master struck Superman with his lightning, he wasn´t dealing with the Atlanteans, he was perfectly focused on the battle, he used his heat vision to repel the atlanteans and at the moment he was struck by the lightning, he was in fron of Ocean Master, yet he was still unable to dodge it. Clark never tried to speedblitz the fodder Atlanteans by the way, like you claim he "always" does.
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If you look at the scans, you can see that Clark was actually paying attention when he got struck by the lightning, so you are the one who should check the context of things before making claims. (scans are not in order, the one in the right goes first)
Anyways, to support my point of Superman reacting fast enough, let's cite Superman #12 once again where he fights some tentacles, and escapes a ground zero-to be zone within less than a second...
Nothing impressive, Iron Man did something similar, yet Thor stomped Stark without any effort.
LMAO! What else do you need to have to properly address the guy in question? Not only Superman belongs to a team where Flash consistently showcases his speed, but the fact Superman actually had more than 1 encounter against Flash and his word is completely validated because of that. He has enough experience with Barry at this point to make a true statement even more so when it is blatantly visible the guy is fast enough to dodge heat vision and blitz Superman while doing it. I don't need to know exactly how fast he was, but just that he was comparable to Flash's speed by Superman's own admission, which is enough to support my case, not like your Hela's statement which was a ridiculous move to say the least mate. Also, just a pro-tip, careful with the "flawed" accusations... Unless you can positively and irrefutably prove me wrong, save it. As for your last statement you're absolutely right, my entire argument will be mostly based off speed, which is completely understandable given Thor is a slug and Superman is a speedster with comparable strength, it is a perfect combination for a nigh-flawless advantage and apologies in advance, as simple, overused and convenient as the argument might sound... Speed is PRECISELY the game changer here.
So, your logic is that because Superman knows and has experience with Flash, his statement is valid ? Then if we follow that logic Sentry, while highly unstable, is the most powefful hero on earth according to Spidey, and Peter has experience and knows him, they were teammates in New Avengers. If we follow that logic also, Lizard is the strongest opponent Spidey has faced, and he has experience with him, and that´s not true, Peter has fought against Morlun and Hulk, both are stronger than Lizard. If we follow your logic there are plenty of statements that would become valid, there needs to be feats to support those statements, which the guy Superman claimed had comparable speed to Flash doesn´t have.
(Lol, "city busting weapons", that´s cute. Mjolnir is easily planet buster.) - Thor Parker82
Never denied that and i think i was very clear was showcasing my feats towards your lightnings. Once again, irrelevant and by now i'm seriously questioning if you're actually reading my arguments. There was a continent shatterer weapon too though...
Thor´s lightning is also planet buster, just as Mjolnir, it doesn´t matter if Superman withstood a continent shatterer weapon, Thor´s lightning is much more powerful than that and it has plenty of feats to back it up.
Why isn't good? You haven't showcased anything about Thor's lightning, which is what i was addressing my scans at, above continent level, it is a energy attack and Superman tanked it just fine. What you're actually trying to showcase here while seemingly neglecting context all the time is Thor's potential to use lightnings the size of a planet and planet busting strikes with Mjolnir which Thor RARELY uses and are only used in very specific occasions like Silver Surfer #79 where Thor hits Beta Ray Bill so hard it busted the planet they were on as a side effect, which in all honesty you took out of context in a very convenient way, mainly because in the previous issue during Thor #461 canonically speaking, Thor was stated to be on Warrior's Madness to the point of actually physically manifesting such anger, likewise, Beta himself stated Thor wasn't himself in their fight...
You have failed to provide feats that suggest Superman would tank Thor´s lightning which is planet buster, and I have plenty of feats to prove it, like I mentioned before, a planet busting strike doesn´t necessarily busts the planet.
He has hurt much more powerful people than Superman with his lightning, take the following for example.
- Here he uses a lightning to BFR Nul.
- Thor one shots Hulk with a lightning, and I am pretty sure you know Hulk is more durable than Superman ;)
You also asked me to show you feats from Mjolnir, well here you have them.
- Thor one shotted Angrir, like I mentioned in my previous post, Angrir stomped Red Hulk, the guy whose punches have created earthquakes, yet Angrir wasn´t hurt by them, Red Hulk was going all out delivering some of his best punches, yet Angrir was unharmed, then you have Thor one shotting him.
- Thor making Odin scream out in pain, when a full blast from Thanos didn´t even move him.
- Thor breaking Galactus´ helmet, when Thanos and Silver Surfer have failed to do that level of damage to him (scan already provided in my previous post)
- Thor hurting Mangog and Thanos who are leagues above Superman in durability.
Thor has severely damaged opponents with much greater durability than Superman.
You have failed to show me any durability feat that would suggest Superman wouldn´t be severely damaged after a couple hammer strikes from Thor, or even just one potent hammer strike.
Hell, even the cover of the issue mentions Thor was on Warrior's Madness... If anything, the whole fight is more of a Beta durability feat than it is for Thor's striking power given the fact Thor becomes 10 times stronger than normal in that state (admittedly i feel the state is purely hyperbolic and mostly unfounded but meh...) and still Beta delivered and took blows from Thor for a prolonged time. Back to the point, Superman's durability feat between continent and city scale are sufficient to make a case for Thor's lightning resistance in-character.
You are also making a mistake regarding Thor breaking a planet as a side effect of hitting BRB. If you actually read the comic instead of just reading respect threads, you would know Thor was never in warrior´s madness, they just thought he was, but in the final issue of Blood and Thunder Odin and Warlock stated Thor was never in warrior madness, he was just angry and stopped holding back, he was basically bloodlusted. It looks like you are the one who reads respect threads instead of actual comics.
Nonsense, there's no evidence besides size to imply it would take such force to bust the portal, for all we know the portal could be incredibly squishy like any machine is against most powerhouses, let alone 2 like Thor and Beta Ray Bill. I don't think you're actually thinking your arguments through by this point and you're speculating in most of your statements or most likely flat out willingly overblowing your feats to somehow sell a decent debate... It's not decent, it's called reaching and it actually affects your chances at beating me. It was a portal, not a metal bag to fit stars and planets inside.
You are the one making baseless assumptions without thinking your response, you are even claiming that you are not sure about the state of the portal, so you can´t assume it´s squishy.
It is a portal that contained stars, so the force necessary to bust it, would need to equal the force necessary to bust the amount of stars it contained, plus not only the portal was destroyed, the stars that the portal contained were busted as well, so this feat is perfectly legit and I don´t see any reason not to take it into account.
First of all, it wasn't a black hole but a wormhole considering they popped out elsewhere and there's absolutely no feats for Young Thor to attribute him such force, even less considering that was the first time he used Mjolnir and had no proficiency with it to actually tab on its real power. Moreover, not only your statement is completely speculative and entirely based off interpretation (biased interpretation nonetheless) but the fact on-panel evidence shows Gorr actually creating wormholes to summon his black dragons, he proved to have this ability in the same issue Thor: God of Thunder #9 and it looked exactly the same as the wormhole that appeared when Young Thor hit him...
Ok, I guess your right in this.
Sure. Fine with me, still fail to see how is he using that here if he has used such thing only once and it's seriously out of character for him to perform such tactics, not only by the scale it implicates but the fact he's not fighting a cosmic threat like Demogorge nor Ego the Living Planet, i mean, c'mon man, Thor fights people on Hulk's level all the time and he isn't using such attacks at all, that's exploiting the very essence of Mjolnir which Thor doesn't do... Like... At all. Regardless, he won't have time to do it, manly because you've failed graciously to counter my speed argument. I thought you had it all figured out when you accepted the match, i was wrong.
We both agreed they know they´ll be fighting a powerful foe, so I don´t see any reason for Thor not to use his powerful lightnings, he may not pull the Demogorge busting or Ego busting lightnings at the begginning of the fight, but if he sees Clark is withstanding lesser lightnings, which he honestly won´t like I have proven, he is going to use more powerful lightnings, he will do anything necessary to knock out Supes. And you are the one who has failed to prove Thor won´t be able to tag Clark, I have provided plenty of instances showcasing Thor´s reflexes and speed, and instances where Superman hasn´t speedblitzed at the beggining of a fight. Now, I am going to show you much slower people than Clark, having no trouble at all in tagging him.
- Helspont tagged him with a blast, there is no indication that the blast was faster than lightning.
- A fodder robot striked him with his tail.
- Spence Becker´s daughter, a girl with no noticeable speed feats punched him
- Same girl punches him several times during the same issue.
All these during the Secrets and Lies TPB (All scans provided above)
(- He blew a hole in the Celestial executioner, Exitar.)
(- Busting a planet as a side effect of hitting BRB) - Thor Parker82
I'm getting tired of this very high end feats mate. You're taking Thor's character way beyond his average showings while mentioning this. I have no quarrels with Mjolnir being able to harm people on that level considering Mjolnir is indeed the most powerful asgardian weapon ever crafted, but Thor has no feats to suggest he'll use such potential against Superman nor anyone on that tier, moreover, it has more to do with the fact magic affects cosmic entities very well than flat out Thor being able to harm everyone like that. As per Beta Ray Bill's instance, i already gave my argument about it above, taken out of context... It's funny because you've been consistently addressing me with bravado claiming i was taking things out of context when it is me who keeps mentioning context to you.
Feats are called high end when there are not many instances of the character performing at such level, when there are only on or two, even three they still fall under the category of "high end", but then they stop being called "high end" when such character performs that kind of feats consistently, say 5 instances or more, this is the case with Thor, I have provided plenty of feats of Thor doing stuff at that level, namely killing Demogorge, defeating Ego the living planet, defeating Glory, hurting the Celestial Exitar, busting planets as side effects of his punches, stalemating Classic Drax, beating Power Gem Drax while he (Thor) was bloodlusted, one shotting Angrir, and plenty of other feats on this level, so they are not high end feats, Thor has shown he is perfectly capable of performing at that level.
And like I mentioned above, you are the one who is wrong about context, Thor was never in warrior´s madness when he busted the planet as a side effect of hitting BRB.
And that's utterly great mate, now, how would you counter speed which has been my sole and only argument in this entire match. Why would you keep arguing for Thor having better striking feat and whatnot if i already agreed with you in the first response? This is a match in which certain things need to be exploited, your character having more and stronger abilities does not equate a win over Superman, you still need to make a case with said abilities with enough relevancy to counter my argument which you've been failing so far.
I have countered your speed arguments, claiming otherwise isn´t going to fool anyone who can read. I have made a case on why Thor would beat Superman and I have shown Clark´s speed is not enough to give him the win, you are the one failing to provide a convincing argument showing Clark´s speed is enough for him to win this battle, and I am sure you won´t be able to provide one.
You're seriously mentioning the very first Superman appearance in his New-52 publication as a way to diminish Superman's potential here? How could you possibly overlook the fact he was a freaking teenager in that moment and his powers were still developing, moreover the fact Superman could still outpace bullets and catch them like a child's play during that time is still faster than anything Thor has shown consistently... Hell, i didn't thought i would have to showcase Teen Superman here, this is beyond my very square and logical mind. Anyways, Action Comics #1...
He catches a bullet with a troll face... I mean -.-. Regardless you also took that instance out of context... AGAIN. Superman wasn't caught the way you're implying, Superman actually stood there thinking nothing could stop him while stating "If you think that's enough..." Then he realized he was hurt and stomped them, i mean, how much out of context scans and instances will you mention here, this is taking me WAY more time than i expected and it's mainly because you're seemingly unable to make a decent citation besides "That time when Superman this and that time where Thor this and that time when this happened..." If you actually knew the context of the things you're talking about or you actually read the issue, you could at the very least give me some introduction to the instance by citing its issue number... I mean, citing is a fundamental part of debating in general, how are we supposed to take your word as factual if you don't even cite the things you're basing your arguments off.
I clearly stated that it was a less experienced Superman and that it had no relevancy, I mentioned that there are plenty of instances of the already experienced adult/current Superman to show he has been tagged by slower people than him, and I have already provided those instances previously in this post.
And yes, Superman was caught the way I am implying, I have read the issue, a tank approaches to Superman, then proceeds to throw a net and traps Clark in it, there is nothing to suggest he just stood there and let himself get trapped thinking he would tank the attack, there´s absolutely nothing to suggest that.
It´s funny that you keep claiming I don´t know the context of the instances I have mentioned, when you are the one who clearly doesn´t know them, I have provided scans, proof and explanation of the context of the instances, and I actually did cite the issue where this happened, I clearly said it was during Action Comics 1. You can´t expect me to name the exact issue for all of the feats from Thor I am providing, I have read hundreds of Thor comics, so please don´t expect me to remember the exact issue for all the instances I am mentioning.
Just keep yourself to your Thor knowledge. Pardon my harshness but it's indeed really tedious to keep explaining context time and time again, is a waste of time which could be actually be used arguing the relevant things of the debate. Again, no hard feelings and sorry if i'm sounding harsh. As per the other instances, they were already addressed previously on the post.
Just keep yourself to your Hulk knowledge ;)
I am the one who has been explaining context to you, so it´s actually funny what you just said.
(Yes, Thor has been able to tank planet shaking and planet busting attacks.) - ThorParker82
Not at all. Sentry's fight, which you used before while currently neglecting by showcasing Thor's very classic and very high end feats, proves that Thor can be harmed by mountain busting punches, considering Superman used such force and shook the planet up to the outer layers of the atmosphere. Regardless, i'm not addressing every feat, you're reaching too much and i'm pretty sure you know Thor has been hurt by MUCH less consistently and this is turning repetitive and i don't have time for such flaws in a debate, sorry. Anyways let's rustle some jimmies with a completely valid instance, considering you actually mentioned it forward in your argument... Let's cite Incredible Hulk Annual from 2001 where Hulk pretty much 3 shot Thor.
Yet, he also took Sentry´s planet shaking punches, and has plenty of showings where he shows planet busting durability.
You mentioned Hulk 3 shoting Thor which is actually wrong, there is no indication Thor was knocked out, and even if he was, he was fine 5 seconds later, so that hardly counts as a knockout or Hulk 3 shoting Thor.
The narration says "Thor, it seems, has been beaten beyond reason, whether he is alive or dead, The Hulk doesn´t care, however, the Odinson yet still lives, and rises". The key word is "seems" the narration says "it seems", so there is no concrete proof Thor was knocked out, and even if he was, he rised 5 seconds later, so that hardly counts as a knockout.
Yes he has, the same way he's been harmed by much less as well. I can't keep jumping between standards mate, arguing like this is incredibly tedious, i expected more from you. I made a valid comparison between Sentry and Superman's instance while proving both instance had the same phenomena, yet you're claiming Thor can tank hits like that because it said "punches that can topple mountains"? The punches still shook the planet which is the same Sentry did and it actually harmed him. Moving on, again with the in-character bullsh!t, pardon my french, Superman doesn't need to be angry to deliver punches like that, he just needs to know he's fighting a powerful opponent which again, it is EXPLICITLY stated in the rules. Let's cite Superman #13 when he fought a a big dragon...
This is completely relevant to my point considering it DOES mentions a mountain busting punch once again and it DOES shows Superman blitzing off the bat just by looking at the destruction it caused, ergo, assuming the beast is powerful while not taking any chances and delivering a mountain busting punch. Stop being difficult and already concede on the fact Superman will be using his speed here, that's not the right way to get around the argument.
You are convienently avoiding the context in which Superman shook the planet, H´el was about to destroy the galaxy, Clark was going all out against him, not every punch Clark delivers is planet shaking, so stop pretending it is. You mention the instance with the dragon as if that proves anything, it doesn´t, only because the narration says the same thing in both instances doesn´t mean he punched equally hard, you need to look at the facts, when Superman punched the dragon, the narration said "punches that can topple mountains" which I have no problem with, Clark is perfectly capable of doing that to a mountain, but the fact is that the planet didn´t shake, not even the field where the battle took place seemed affected, in the other instance you have Superman punching H´el and the narration again says "punches that can topple mountains" only that this time, the planet actually shaked, so it´s safe to assume Clark used more force when he punched H´el than when he punched the dragon, the narration is irrelevant when you look at the facts.
Most of Thor's lightnings? Thor isn't performing a single one omnidirectional or not, he'll be too busy taking Superman's punches to the face to even fathom to concentrate and summon lightning. It is not a baseless assumption considering my evidence is the lack of proof for the omnidirectional lightning to be somehow compared to directed lightning, if that was the case, why wouldn't Thor be moving around throwing omnidirectional lightning every time he could? Why would he opt to use directed lightning against someone as fast as Quicksilver? Makes no sense to me unless Thor has such a tunnel vision in battle he can't figure this out for himself.
You haven´t provided a credible reason as to why Thor wouldn´t use his omnidirectional lightning, you say he would be too busy receiving punches from Superman, that´s a really poor excuse to be honest, all Thor needs to do is think about an omnidirectional lightning and that´s it, I fail to see why he wouldn´t use it if he is getting overwhelmed by Clark´s speed, he did something like this against Quicksilver, he realized Pietro was faster than him and used an AoE attack to defeat him. You have nothing that implies his omnidirectional lightning isn´t as strong as his directed lightning, but let´s assume you are right, Thor can use the omnidirectional lightning just to stun Clark and then proceed to use his more powerful attacks.
Then Superman freezes him again and punches him. Rinse and repeat. This is so easy.
That´s useless, he wouldn´t be doing any damage to Thor.
Science does apply to comics up to certain point, but even if you don't take my argument as legit, there's actually enough evidence to support my claim. Regardless, there's context behind the instance so why you keep addressing a point that is mostly moot as far as the match goes... Thor was doing that by making his arm collapse, which isn't very smart let alone totally out of character for him to do so here. Shake reality itself? What the hell are you talking about? Pardon my french. Look, i don't feel like arguing that instance anymore, you've been mentioning it like it is somehow applicable here and yes, there is indication the planet were being shattered when they were on top of them... C'mon man, for the love of Thor look at your own scans and stop looking for them at respect threads!
Look at the red squared part, they were on top of the planet and the planet is actually shattering, moreover, the fact that they were already on the planet means there's possibly a medium for the to create shockwaves to shatter the planets, more points for my argument. I would suggest you, hell, i'll ask you politely to stop implying i'm making things up, i'm a very respected debater around here and i NEVER take anything out of context and my impartiality has been up to a point i've found myself arguing against Hulk several times. Stop it, it is amateurish and insulting to say the least.
There is so much wrong with this argument that I don´t know where to start.
I agree that science does apply to a certain point, but this is one of those instances where it doesn´t, I am pretty sure Aaron wasn´t thinking in science and how it isn´t possible to shatter planets in space, you seriously need to stop reaching and making horrible excuses.
Yeah, there certainly is context behind the instance, Thor was hitting Gorr as hard as he could, which I can agree he probably won´t do here, but you are also missing some context there, Thor was actually weakened and severely injured, the necrosword was eating him from the inside, with each punch, the necrosword was burrowing deeper in his flesh, deeper inside him, so he wasn´t physically a hundred percent fine, which means that if he was, he would perfectly capable of shattering planets as side effects of his hits, like he proved against BRB.
Lol, it´s funny that you are telling me to look at my own scans when you should do the same, I mean, in the very same scan you posted (and the one I just posted above), if you turn your eyes to the right, you can see a planet that is far away getting shattered, what more proof do you need buddy, stop reaching. I have read pretty much every issue I am posting scans from, so I ask you to stop impying I look for them at respect threads, which is actually funny that you say that, because I think you are the one who looks at respect threads for Thor feats, I have shown you you were wrong regarding the context from most of Thor instances.
Shaking reality... That's absurd.
I really don´t need you to think it´s credible or absurd, it´s science, whether you like it or not, in order to shatter planets in space you would need to shake reality, don´t get me wrong, I am not implying Thor can shake reality, because this is an instance where science doesn´t apply.
There's so much wrong about this argument i don't even know where to start.
I mean, the instance in Justice League #16 was already addressed, Superman wasn't even paying attention to him and the only one who was actually dealing with Ocean Master was Aquaman whereas both Superman and Diana were dealing with the fodder. You won't have such advantages in this match given Superman is completely focused on Thor as it is, once again, explicitly stated in the rules.
I already provided scans to show that you are wrong, at the time Ocean Mater released his lightning, Clark was focused in him, yet was still unable to dodge it. Look above for scans.
If He'l is faster than Superman why would you such instance as proof to support your point? It makes no sense in the essence of a debate to do such thing, this is a horrible argument and there's absolutely nothing right about it, not only because it doesn't fit any type of decent debating style at all, but the fact you're flat out wrong, like 98% of time, considering in the scans i already posted Superman is blitzing H'el ending in the mountain busting punches. I mean, Superman didn't even noticed when H'el brought Superboy to the scene in Superman #14...
This makes me think you are the one who is not reading my arguments, I said I knew that H´el was much faster than Clark, and probably would have countered his speedblitz, but my point was that Clark never tried to speedblitz him at the beggining of their fight, when he didn´t know he was that fast. You conveniently keep avoiding context, Superman only blitzed H´el when he was about to destroy the entire galaxy, Clark was going all out and was angry, which is why he used his speed to speedblitz H´el. You are actually the one who is wrong like 98% of time buddy, claiming otherwise isn´t going to fool anyone with reading skills.
Another ridiculous instance which doesn't support your point at all considering Cheetah is fast enough to actually blitz the entire Justice League including Flash which is already a ridiculous feat given Flash had both nanosecond and attosecond reaction speed by this time yet she didn't struggle that hard to tag him several times, Wonder Woman as well, Superman too. How could you possibly use this instance to downplay Superman, both H'el and this one from Justice League #13 is rather nonsensical in the use of your point.
Same point as with the H´el instance, so read above again.
Wonder Woman has tremendous speed too. -.- This is becoming a nuisance mate, at this point i think you're mocking me or something, your arguments make no sense at all.
Umm, so ? My point is that Clark didn´t even tried to speedblitz her, like you keep claiming he "always" does.
Graves was already explained above considering you like repeating yourself throughout the entirety of your argument.
Same here, I already explained the Graves instance above and actually provided scans.
Meh.
All right, this means you have no argument for this instance, not that it would make any difference, considering they weren´t very good arguments and I have countered them.
Meh.
Same as above.
Superman barely had any on-panel participation during Justice League #8... What on Earth are trying to imply with this issue? Superman doesn't even talk that much and most of the things he does are totally off-panel. Jesus, this is beyond my patience.
It doesn´t matter if Superman had no participation, he never tried to speedblitz the enemies when he had the chance to do it.
Dreaming is for free, so you keep thinking you've actually debunked something.
Right back at you buddy, keep thinking I haven´t.
Thor is a brute and his skill is almost nonexistent and the only reason he managed to showcase some skill was because he lost his powers, as soon as he got them back he returned to be the brute and mediocre fighter he has always been by any skill standards. Regardless, how does he counter speed?
Seriously just stop talking about Thor, the more you talk about him the more clear it becomes that you don´t know him very well, he is actually very skilled, I provided plenty of skill feats in my previous post, hell, I even posted a scan above showing Thor keeping up with Cap when he was powerless, but here are more feats to prove my point.
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- Stomping several thieves
- Stomping a horde of enemies
- Stomping Sif when he was a teen.
- Stomping Fenrir and Loki. Thor was emanating vapor from his fists, that´s an indication of how fast he was punching.
Superman's knows the human body in its entirety, which Thor's actually resembles a lot, which means he could very easily pin point certain parts of the body to flat out affect Thor's motion and concentration, let alone flat out incapacitating him just like Mantis did. Now, may i ask WHY wouldn't Superman look at Thor's insides? Regardless of what you think, i don't even need to go there.
It´s pointless bringing this up, Clark doesn´t have the precision Mantis has, so he isn´t incapacitating Thor, he isn´t even going to pin point certain parts of his body to affect his motion and concentration, that´s something Superman rarely does and it´s really out of character, you have provided one instance where he uses that against Wraith, the problem is Superman has had hundreds of battles and that´s an attack he rarely uses, so again, it´s pointless to bring that up.
Good for him... Not like Asgard has any noteworthy fighters but that's aside the main point... How are you going to deal with the skill and the speed? You've failed time and time again to address positively this point, which in all honesty is the only one i really need, i just used the skill argument to actually have my own approach to Superman which is rarely mentioned. Moving on...
Seriously ? The warriors three are extremely skilled in combat, they are supposed to be the best in Asgard, yet Thor still defeated them in hand to hand combat. You are the one who has failed to provide a credible argument as to why speed would give Superman the win, when it´s something he doesn´t always use to his full potential. And your skill argument isn´t very useful buddy, it is something Clark rarely does.
You know, being that specific doesn't work as an argument as long as the arguments pertains some logic and are supported by consistency and corroborated by in-character instances, but for the sake of the debate and to satisfy your SPECIFIC requests... He actually did so in the scans i posted before, i mean, i think i just confirmed you're NOT reading through my arguments and you're NOT looking at the scans i post. I don't know why i'm putting so much in this if you're not even taking this half serious. Either way, i told you he did it twice against Wraith while i just showcased one of the fights. In the same issue, Superman manages to damage Wraith trachea making him unable to hold his breath, punched him in the diaphragm to force the release of air and restrained him to make it impossible for him to react nor take a break...
I am reading your arguments, the only thing you showed was Clark kicking someone in the neck and doing some key hits to Wraith, but he never did it as easily nor as good as you claim he does, not that it matters, because that´s something Clark rarely does.
All of this happened before Wrath could react, which is someone who is faster than Superman by both his and Superman's admission. Not only Superman demonstrate he can actually perform precisely what i'm stating at high speed, but the fact he already did in comics, and for the sake of your nit pick and constant questioning towards very specific instances, the exact same tactic can be applied for Thor as well considering Thor can survive in space PRECISELY because he can hold his breath for very long times periods. If he rans out of oxygen, bam, Thor's down and it only took Superman a few seconds. Nonetheless, he did all of this while going straight through the moon like a hot knife into butter. Moving on...
Any feats besides statements to suggest Wraith is faster than Clark ? Until I see them, he isn´t faster than Clark. Again, this tactic is irrelevant and pointless to bring it up, mainly because it´s something Clark rarely does in character, and it is very clear in the rules of this CaV that this battle is in character, otherwise I would be claiming Thor would use tsunamis , winds of a thousand worlds, or his earth manipulation, which I am not, because those are abilities Thor rarely uses in character.
Thor can breath in space, he´s been shown countless times doing it, hell, I could post hundreds of scans of Thor being a prolonged time in space.
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Why wouldn't my tactic be valid here? He used the tactic in 2 different occasions which didn't have any exploitable context besides fighting a powerful opponent, which Thor actually is and Superman is aware of this fact before the match even begins. It's in-character for him to not take chances against powerful opponents like he already proved twice in my scans during Action Comics #22 and Superman #13. I explicitly stated Clark doesn't have that precision while fighting, but i also stated Thor isn't going down that fast either, but Superman SURELY can apply his techniques on Thor and affect him just like he did to Wraith and the Avengers citation was solely to prove Thor can be incapacitated via pressure points. That said, i find incredibly funny you've been spouting an obnoxious amount of incongruences towards Superman character while making false statements and unfounded speculations about how he's going to perform here, mainly because you've been using 1 time instances with Thor using universe shaking thermoblasts and whatnot. Quit the double standards, again, i CAN'T keep jumping between them.
Your tactis isn´t valid because that´s something Clark rarely does in character, you mentione two instances as if that´s any proof that Clark does that, when there has been hundreds of instances where hje hasn´t used his body knowledge to incapacitate an opponent. It´s funny that you think you have proven your point by showing two instances of Clark using that tactic, yet I have provided 8 instances of Thor damaging beings on Galactus´ level and you say Odinson wouldn´t use that kind of attacks, clearly you are the one who needs to stop with the double standards.
He really doesn't considering he's a brutish slug, but hey, let's agree he's not a complete moron and know how to throw a punch, regardless, how is he dealing with someone with better techniques, astonishingly faster and stronger as well. The durability feats are mostly energy based attacks and Thor has been put down time and time again by physical force incredibly pettier than the ones you've showcased, i cited Incredible Hulk Annual from 2001, let's cite Heroic Age: Avengers #2 where Wonder Man one shots Thor and drops him for quite a prolonged time...
I have mentioned countless times times how Thor would deal with Clark, omnidirectional lightning, combat skill, fast enough to react to his attacks and fast enough to connect some hits, that´s how he would deal with him. I already debunked the instance with Hulk, now are you seriously mentioning Wonder Man one shotting Thor, that´s an extremely low showing, something that all people use to have some fun, just like Rulk beating Odin Force Thor, Batman kicking Spectre or Batman making Clark bleed with a bat-kick. Wonder Man has no feats to suggest he could do that, plus Thor was fine some time after that. During Busiek´s Avengers, I think it was the third issue, Thor was stated to be the most powerful Avenger, the roster of Avengers includes Wonder Man, so it´s ridiculous to think he could do that kind of damage to Thor.
Awesome fan fiction story mate! Sadly, it is hardly applicable for an entirely objective match where the most likely scenarios while exploiting each character's best attributes coupled with consistency. First of all, this nonsense of Thor throwing his hammer like that and hitting Clark is unfounded and completely delusional in nature. Why would Superman stand there like a statue and take Thor's very slow hammer throw? Not only Angela managed to dodge his hammer throws multiple times but the fact even Hulk has managed to dodge such thing in the past, namely Avengers Season One...
It´s not fan fiction, that´s the most likely scenario in this fight, of course Superman isn´t just going to stand, but he is not going to be able to dodge Mjolnir, please don´t bring up Hulk, Angela and Steve´s son (you are probably going to mention him as well) dodging Mjolnir when characters much faster like Silver Surfer, Gladiator and Sentry have been unable to dodge it, the same weapon that has traveled several times the speed of light and has already been confirmed to be at least twice the speed of light.
It isn't as fast as you claim, let alone the stupidity behind that argument and Superman's opting to take such thing without moving at all. Anyways, even though i know Mjolnir is a night-sentient weapon, i fail to see why Superman would just stand there and take the projectile to the face, which is actually where your argument consumes itself in idiocy. Furthermore, i don't know why you keep neglecting time and time again the fact BOTH Thor and Superman know they'll be fighting a powerful foe, he doesn't need to try nor test nor stay in the way of a slow projectile to figure out he's fighting a powerful foe, i can't fathom the reason how could you overlook the RULES of this match... I mean, when i asked you "Does it look ok for you?" Did you replied like a monkey (Whiplash quote) or did you actually read the stipulations? Regardless, i don't want to sound overly harsh but i need you to focus.
Yes it is, Mjolnir is an insanely fast weapon, I know Clark isn´t just going to stand there and let himself get hit, but he is going to be unable to dodge the hammer, the same hammer that has plenty of feats going several times the speed of light. All of the travel speed feats from Thor are due to Mjolnir, and you probably know Thor has traveled several galaxies in a couple of seconds, he entered hyperspace and Ego the living planet was unable to keep up with his speed, he once threw Mjolnir to the farthest reaches of the galaxy and it returned to him in less than a minute, that is many times FTL.
Silver Surfer, the guy who has traveled countless galaxies in a couple of seconds was unable to keep up with Mjolnir´s speed.
So I really don´t see Superman dodging a weapon several times FTL, without PIS, characters who are below that speed shouldn´t be able to dodge it, and there is no plot involved here, so unless you show me Clark dodging a weapon several times FTL, he is definitely going to get hit, not to mention Mjolnir can lock on to targets.
This celestial hurting lightnings you keep spouting nonsense about, Thor doesn't use those lightnings like, at all, considering the scenarios you selected but given the fact you actually cited Infinity #6, let's apply legitimacy to the whole issue...
Thanos laughs off Thor's lightnings. I guess Thanos is more durable than Galactus, ergo, more durable than Celestials as well. Of course, all of this is neglecting the fact Mjolnir has very attuned properties to fight cosmic threats like both Galactus and the Celestials are. I'm getting really tired of your delusional approach for all i care i could very easily claim Superman went through several black holes and wasn't harmed at all and call it a wrap, but not only that feat is very high end, but the fact it has context behind... 2 things you keep missing and purposely leaving out to suffice your claims. To conclude this point, i fail to see any legitimacy on your speculative and baseless prediction of the match, not only you're picturing Superman like a total retard by making him pretty much a statue while failing to perform any offensive maneuver whatsoever, but the fact you pretty much neglect Superman's character in its entirety. Childish and biased proposition at best.
I don´t understand what´s your point with this, Superman is nowhere near Thanos in durability, Thanos is a tank who is extremely difficult to damage, there is no shame in him tanking Thor´s lightning, and even though Thanos lost his fight against Odin, he took some blasts from him without even moving.
I'm not completely addressing the forwardly overused scans you've been using twice in your arguments... Seems like you;re running out of feats. Regardless Galactus was starving during that story arc and still was powerful enough to be completely fine after Odin himself attacked him with a headbutt and KO himself in the attempt, as per the other scans, Mikaboshi wasn't harmed during Chaos War and anything short of a amped Hercules with the power of an entire Multiverse managed to harm him, let alone him being beaten via plot than any other way around... Lastly, Hulk actually took the same lighting previously in the same issue im quite sure you haven't even read and was just shaken afterwards...
Exactly buddy, Galactus was powerful enough to tank hits from Odin, yet Thor managed to break his helmet, something we have rarely seen before. I know Mikaboshi wasn´t harmed by Thor´s lightning, but the fact it ripped through him, when nothing in the entire story arc seemed to phase him, when Hercules who had the power to restore the multiverse couldn´t do it, makes this feat really impressive.
Stop assuming things, I have read the Hulk annual, in fact, I edited the wiki from the issue here in Comic Vine.
Thor probably used a less powerful lightning at the beggining of his fight with Hulk, that´s why he was able to tank it, when he really wanted to end the conflict he one shotted Hulk, but this again is irrelevant considering Savage Hulk is more durable than New 52 Superman.
So
- Thor is fast enough to react to Superman
- Thor is fast enough to strike Superman
- Clark doesn´t speedblitz at the beggining of fights.
- Thor´s durability surpasses Superman´s damage output, Clark won´t be able to knock out Thor
- Thor can use omnidirectional lightning if he gets overwhelmed by Clark´s speed
- Thor has incredible striking power that definitely would knock out Superman.
PS : Again I am missing some scans, my computer loads them extremely slow, so I´ll post them ASAP.
@thor_parker82: Alright, let's continue this already...
Pretty much everyone who knows about Thor agree that his fight against Wolverine was a low showing, Logan has no feats to suggest he is as fast as Thor, let alone being faster than him, and him claiming that Wolverine is faster is bullsh*t, a statement with no consistency at all, Thor one shotted Dario Agger and he stated he was as strong as Hulk, then I guess if we always go by statements Odinson should one shot Hulk with a single punch.
As for Steve being faster than Thor, that´s also extremely wrong, in the following scans Thor was powerless and not only did he keep up with no trouble at all with Captain America, he actually saved him. And it is important to note again that Thor was powerless, meaning he didn´t have his superhuman speed, yet he was still able to keep up with Cap without any problem, so if we give him his godly powers, it´s safe to assume he is MUCH faster than Steve.
I know Thor and i completely disagree with you and that people. Even Thor expert, Hall of Famer and probably the most knowledgeable person regarding Thor and Cosmic characters this site had to offer, namely @killemall, back in the day supported the idea Thor has been consistently a slow character, which in all fairness is something i subscribe to as well... The fight with Wolverine is not a low showing considering Thor has multiple instances that can corroborate what happened during his fight with Logan. Hell, he even stated something similar towards Daredevil's movements back in Daredevil #30...
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Thor states Daredevil's movements are beyond understanding, something very similar to what Hela stated back in the scan you posted in your opener. So in fact, Thor stating a street leveler is fast or implying he's slower than them is not something that only happened once. By now i'm seriously questioning myself if it actually worths the time to keep arguing about something i'm almost sure you won't concede, even though you haven't presented ANY proof to suggest Thor is fast, let alone faster than street levelers. With this i'll rest my case towards Thor slowness... Moving onto the Steve instance, first of all, Steve stating Thor had the same problem as Thunderstrike, which was the same Steve who actually danced around Thor during Avengers #62, is completely legit because he has proven to be faster than Thor already. Your scans do not show Thor keeping up with Steve but with nameless fodder, if there was a fight between them 2 then i would agree with you but as far as Thor fighting street levelers go, he is a slug. Regardless, i don't know what makes you think having his powers makes him faster, not only Thor while missing his powers needed to rely in his almost nonexistent fighting skill, but the fact he is consistently sloppy when he has his powers.
By now, i think you already realized you're arguing for Thor being on-par with street levelers... Which only supports my case of Thor being seriously outclassed in the speed department to the point of being unable to react against someone as fast as Superman. I mean, you haven't showcased anything on Thor to make a case of him reacting to Superman while at the same time struggling to make a case for Thor being on par with power less street levelers.
I also discarded the Agger analogy. You can do better.
I never said Thor has FTL combat speed, but he has enough to react to Superman and land some hits. And if you go and take a look at most of Norrin´s battles in the forum, he is underrated in his speed, only in his speed, and he actually uses his combat speed most of the times, just look at some of the scans I posted in my previous post, but just so you can see that I have plenty of instances of Surfer using his combat speed, here are more instances of Norrin using his combat speed
Norrin is not underrated, he just doesn't use his speed at all and everyone and their mothers have been able to tag him easily because of this. Going from street levelers to bricks like Thor and Hulk. Again, Silver Surfer expert @killemall back in the day formulated arguments with the sole purpose of proving Silver Surfer hardly uses his speed in combat. This is kind of funny considering all the instances you've showcased to suffice Norrin's combat speed were not done with Thor at all, let alone Silver Surfer speed being completely based on his board, which in return is the sole thing that blizted the snot out of Thor several times during an issue you tried to wrongly exploit. Moreover, dodging lasers is an average feat for Street Levelers, dodging gunfire is even more common for street levelers to the point they can actually see bullets in slowmotion like Captain America or just flat out pin point them with Billy Clubs like Daredevil. Those feats can be hardly connected with how Norrin operates while fighting Thor, let alone Silver Surfer NOT using speed at all against Thor.
In fact, the speed argument is all about that, even if you can prove Silver Surfer uses his speed more times than not (which i'm incredibly positive you won't be able to), you still need to showcase such speed while fighting Thor, which hasn't happened at all in any of the scans you've posted.
All the times Surfer used his board to speedblitz Thor, he attacked him from his back, Thor was never paying attention to the board, he was too busy fighting Norrin and he took advantage from that and sucker punched/speedblitzed him while he wasn´t even looking at the board. Trying to say Thor is slower than street levelers is absolutely ridiculous buddy.
So now you're telling me Thor tunnel visions fights? He wasn't paying attention to the sole thing that actually blitz him during that fight? I mean, what kind of argument is that, just concede already Thor can't react to such speeding objects and as i said, there's no need to showcase more street levelers being faster than Thor, i almost posted 10 different instances of street levelers being flat out faster than Thor, it's unpractical to keep arguing this.
There actually is, Sentry has been shown to be FTL, and he was bloodlusted during Siege, so he had no reason at all to hold back his speed. I know Sentry did blitz him, but the fact that Thor managed to react immediately after he was punched shows he isn´t slow at all, but in fact, he is fast.
THIS is what i'm talking about... You can't even see it yourself but you keep jumping between standards and it's really tedious to argue this way because i'd keep repeating myself over and over. Look, you stated you weren't claiming Thor was FTL but in this quote you're actually implying Thor reacted to a FTL speed blitz, which essentially will make Thor FTL as well. He's not and he has NO feats to support this claim. Sentry managed to blitz him, the fact he did it the wrong way, like, not applying ANY skill nor intelligent speed advantage whatsoever, is beyond my reach, but it hardly proves Thor can react to him.
Sentry striking feats are not that great and he lacks every shred of intelligence Clark actually exploits in his fights, something Clark himself blatantly stated when he fought Wraith, but that's another topic. There's no proof as how fast nor how strong Sentry was blitzing besides actually struggling to break some asgardian concrete and whatnot, the fact Thor was already being blitzed and the fact Sentry lacks feats to support his blitzing striking strength means the tactic is still viable. Either way, there is some context behind these claims. Sentry wasn't Sentry per se, during Siege, it was Void and the script from the story arc seriously implies it...
Actually, Void during the entire saga of Siege opted to let himself be punched and harmed all the time even before Osborn planned to take over Asgard. His fight with Ares, who doesn't have any super speed noticeable managed to tag him several times, prior to that he still took a shot to the face for no apparent reason by his wife. Regardless, the most important part is Sentry's blitz is not that strong given how he struggled to go through Asgard as the script mentioned, but the fact Superman went straight through the Moon like a hot knife into butter. Also, if it wasn't because Sentry opted to stand there and look at a grounded Thor after blitzing him prior to the issue of your scan, namely Siege #1, he could be able to blitz just like Superman does and did to both Wraith and Orion...
The best thing about this is that Thor found himself helpless to the initial blitz which actually involved speed. Either way, it's enough for such a short quote of yours.
Because Thor has plenty of feats to suggest he can react to Clark´s attacks, plenty of people slower than Supes have reacted to him and managed to punch him, I am going to mention some of them in a moment, and provide scans so everyone can see Clark isn´t untouchable like you are trying to make him seem.
No. He has none considering you've failed to showcase PRECISELY that factor in this fight. Superman has on-panel statements that pretty much explain why he gets punched and tagged so many times. Let's cite Action Comics #23 where it was blatantly stated he thinks he's pretty much indestructible, hence the reason why he's always letting himself get hit and whatnot...
Then again, in the previous issue he stated he won't give the benefit of doubt to the alien who punched him and went straight to the blitz, which actually resembles the scenario both of us agreed to have here. It all depends on how powerful Superman knows the character he's fighting is and in this match he has more than enough intel to cut loose. You don't need to mention them as the only thing that matter is that he has actually reacted, fought, blitzed and overpowered people by speed alone including someone who was as fast as Flash by Superman's own admission. Hell, someone who can catch Barry by surprise is horrendously fast, just as Superman did in Justice League #2 when he anticipated Flash's position...
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This is even more impressive when the fact Flash's reflexes are so freaking fast he actually reacts in femtoseconds as he proved in Flash #4 when he reacted to a bullet that was already touching him, let alone Flash being completely unfocused during the instance...
Again, this is a quite solid combat speed feat for Superman and yet i expect you to neglect it without any sort of valid reason besides nit picking instances where Superman didn't use his speed to completely base your flawed vision of Superman's character as a whole. The fact that you ignore things like Superman being focused, Superman knowing he'll be fighting someone powerful and the fact he has stated 3 times in his publication that's actually what he needs to cut loose and go for the blitz is beyond me, but do me a favor and keep any response towards these points to yourself as i'm not going to address them any further. I think i've been overly reasonable towards your arguments, including the omnidirectional lightning one and restrained myself from doing exactly what you're doing here, in fact, i could post 350 issues of Thor not using omnidirectional lightning and use it as an argument for Thor simply don't using it here, but then again that's not how you debate here considering it overlooks the Vine's rules as well as the match's rules. Got the point now?
The AoE attacks are a perfectly good move and you have failed to counter why he wouldn´t be able to use them, Superman won´t speedblitz at the beggining of the fight, and even if he did, the only thing Thor has to do is to think about releasing an omnidirectional lightning, I fail to see why he wouldn´t do that if he starts to get overwhelmed by Clark´s speed. You also have failed to prove your notion that his omnidirectional lightning isn´t as strong as his directed lightning, which I will address that point in a moment.
Yet again, you used the same double standards you've been using throughout the whole thread. How can you fail to see Thor not using such lightning if you fail to see Superman using his speed... Is incongruent and seemingly tedious to argue like this mate and i need to ask you to stop. Thor is going to be seriously phased by mountain busting punches considering he's been harmed by less, the fact Superman won't only be delivering punches of such force, but the fact he'll be using his combat skills against Thor as well at speeds he won't be able to comprehend, throwing him completely off balance and not allowing him any time to think. Anyways, let's wait for your omnidirectional lightning argument.
It was established that both opponents know they are fighting a powerful foe, so I fail to see why Thor wouldn´t use powerful lightnings, of course he isn´t going to use the one he did against Chaos King, but he certainly can and would use the ones he released against Galactus and Celestials. Also Thor´s directed lightnings can be planet busting without affecting the surrounding or actually busting the planet, it´s comic book logic, a planet busting attack doesn´t necessarily busts the planet, and I think that´s mostly because it´s directed towards a specific person, take the following for example.
Exactly, both know they'll be fighting a powerful adversary so i fail to see why Superman wouldn't exploit his speed off the bat like he did in the first 15 issues of Superman series, like literally, that was his very first move and the times he didn't do it was flat out because he was talking someone down or trying to understand why he was fighting his foe. Certainly you don't know what you're talking about because even against Hulk, he didn't use such lightnings, EVER. The last part is hilarious... May i ask, what should i take from that argument? The fact you're actually implying that we should disregard on-panel graphic proof we consistently and almost all the time use to validate and roughly quantify feats and assume every single lightning Thor uses is a planet busting lightning? Or the fact you're going delusional now?
Either way, that approach is absurd and it's nothing more than a poorly thought argument to fit your twisted POVs. I mean, i don't even know how to address that or most likely i'm unable to see any reason at all why should i use my time delivering such a flawed point. C'mon man, you've been a lot better than that. Just to let you know, i'm going to jump any part regarding this subject.
That´s a misconception mostly made by people who don´t know Thor very well, he isn´t slow, he may not be the fastest character but he´s nowhere near slow. Thor fans neglect that Odinson is slow because we actually know him, he isn´t slow, and trying to imply he is even slower than street levelers is ridiculous.
Redundancy over there. I know Thor, not a fan at all, but i know him enough to claim he's a slug and i've showcased a quite significant amount of proof over yours to support my case, whereas you've been jumping between double standards and misaddressed instances to try and reach a reasonable point where Thor doesn't look like a complete turtle for Superman. By that statement you're calling 6 different writers ridiculous, including DeFalco which had Thor's issues for a very long time.
Anyways, to address your scans, first of all the citation you attempted to make for Avengers #281 and #282 yet posted a scan from Mighty Thor #7 who doesn't match at all with your argument considering Hercules still was able to see Hermes and it is blatantly shown in your scan. As per the real instance, Thor was only able to see him like you're implying because he was the only one looking at the window of the hospital and Hermes's shoulder was visible during Avengers #281...
Moreover, the fact that in the same issue it was stated Hermes just moved almost faster than the eye could follow means he wasn't even operating beyond the perception speed of a normal human being, which takes a LOT from your argument given you're somehow implying Thor reacts faster than the Avengers as a whole, which is nonsense given Captain America alone would drown Thor in reaction speed feats, that said, he was also caught up and seen by Captain Marvel/Photon and a bunch of random citizens easily...
Furthermore, the only reason Thor managed to get a hold at him was because of Mjolnir, as he was traveling through Olympus trying to follow him, so in fact that hardly applies as a reaction speed for Thor, mainly because Mjolnir is a self-sentient weapon which follows people wherever they're at, like it was proven in Thor Corps #4 where Thor followed Demonstaff to a void between alternate planes of reality simply by tracking him with Mjolnir...
So yeah, he didn't even found him because he somehow followed his tracks with his eyes, that feat is hardly a feat... Either way, here's the scan where Thor is blatantly trying to get a hold at him by using Mjolnir's traveling abilities instead of his combat speed or raw speed so to speak...
Moving onto the next scan, even though becoming a blur is partially impressive for someone as slow as Thor, it hardly stacks to become a decent threat or someone capable of reacting to Superman mainly because the speed necessary to become a blur in front of human eyes is incredibly petty and it's actually below Mach 1. For the sake of saving time, just wave your hand as fast as you can in front of your face... Ta-da! You're as fast as Thor.
The next scan... That was a standstill Gladiator during The Mighty Thor #35, there was no use of speed over there and the only actual factor for Thor is his striking strength which hasn't been doubted at all in this match. Either way, just to let you know, a blitzing Gladiator looks like this, which is completely different to what you showed in your scan...
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Moreover, the fact Gladiator only has 1 single feat against Earth-712 Hyperion which was stated to be done between nanoseconds makes it incredibly inconsistent to the point of being completely useless for debating purposes. You can't solidly claim Gladiator operates around that speed all the time, even less if people like Thor, both Masterson and Odinson, Thing, Hulk and other bricks manage to tag him on regular basis... That's of course not mentioning the blatant fact his powers are completely driven by how confident he feels at the instance in question, which in your scan seems to be wavering given what Thor is stating, that and the fact that Gladiator was from the future so who knows what level of confidence he had. Anyways, i fail to see any speed usage by Thor's part there and, just for the sake of the debate, in the previous issue The Mighty Thor #34, where Gladiator actually attempted to blitz, Thor could barely move before receiving a hit that KO'd him...
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Stomped the ground underneath them while being in front of them, moved fast enough to be behind them throwing them a whole lot of debris and proceed to blitz him so hard he could barely swing once before getting his hammer kicked out of his hand and thrown several miles away and punched out like the average powerhouse he really is. This becomes even more interesting when the fact Superman used a quite similar tactic to this one during the very first issue of Superman's solo series, Superman #1, when he threw the Daily Globe's Globe at the enemy as a diversion to blitz him without him noticing Superman.
I'm not going to touch Heimdall's feat considering i care next to nothing about him, but if my knowledge serves right, he doesn't have any noteworthy speed feats nor reaction speed feats to make his claim or his instance any impressive or enough to suffice Thor's speed. Regardless, i'm actually open for some insight here.
Thor states he was weakened and wasn´t physically good for combat, he was blasted by a machine from the tenth realm, a machine with unkown properties and unknown power, so that may be the reason he was weakened, I have heard many people state that it was that blast which weakened Thor, which is the best explanation considering he stomped Angela in his next encounter, how do you explain that ? The only reasonable explanation is that Thor was actually weakened in his first fight against her, then we get to see how a real fight between the two of them would be, and Thor almost killed her.
So you don't know the reason why Thor wasn't physically good for combat? The hearsay can be pretty tricky mate given people back then said the Earth was flat, hope you get my point, but regardless, he didn't stomp Angela in their next encounter during Original Sin: Thor and Loki #5.5, he didn't even landed a single hit on her, not even lightning since it was Odin who threw it at Angela. In fact he was still getting smacked around the same way it happened before to the point of Thor claiming she was nimble and asking her if she was actually faster than lightning, meaning physically Thor was outmatched, once again. Hell, i'm not entirely sure why you made such statement before...
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It's even less impressive, or not impressive at all, since Angela's true weakness is lightning, which was actually showcased before Original Sin's issues while fighting the Guardians of the Galaxy, so meh, you're wrong and you seem strangely misinformed on the subject.
When I say he failed to use his speed, I mean he just decided not to use it, when doing so could have easily end the entire conflict. Clark indeed used his speed against H´el, but not at the beggining of the fight like you claim he "always" does, when they started fighting, Clark never tried to speedblitz, I know H´el is much faster than Supes, but that´s irrelevant to my point, which is that Superman doesn´t speedblitz at the beggining of fights.
And yes, Superman failed to use his speed against Graves. I am well aware that the Justice League previously saved him, he actually wrote a book about them, I have read every New 52 Justice League issue so far, and I know Graves was sucking his life essence, but when Green Lantern broke that connection, Clark had a chance to speedblitz Graves, and that would have ended the conflict, yet he didn´t.
You've said it yourself... It isn't because of Superman's character but because the plot needed to create a situation in the first place. You can't expect Superman to use speed blitz 100% of the time, but given the stipulations of this match, there's absolutely no reason to imply he won't use it off the bat when on-panel evidence shows that with these precise factors taken into account, Superman will decide to blitz at the start of the fight. Regardless, the same analogy applies to you, why isn't Thor using omnidirectional lightning and Celestial sized lightning all the time like "Woops! Street Leveler dancing around me! Must use Omnidirectional pew pew because i'm too slow, have at thee!" all the time? In fact, Thor has even less instances showing the character development you're trying to exploit here than Superman not blitzing, and we're talking about a 55 years of comics publication against 4 years... See my point?
He didn't failed, the plot didn't require Superman ending the issue in 2 panels because it was a shared issue with 6 other big faces of DC Comics, i mean, this is turning into a nuisance mate and seemingly a trolling intent. Stop being so difficult.
I am pretty sure you won´t be able to, there are waaaay to many instances where Superman didn´t use his speed at the beggining of a fight, he will probably start using it later in the fight, but not at the beggining, and even if he uses his speed, Thor can still use the omnidirectional lightning to stun him and then proceed to use more powerfull strikes and/or lightnings.
I'm sorry, i won't post that quantity of scans here but considering your imperviousness to logic, i feel safe assuming people will analyze what you tried to do here. Every time i see Superman not using his speed right next to the omnidirectional lightning argument i die a little inside. The double standards is TOO OBVIOUS.
I have actually got around your speed argument, I have shown plenty of instances of Thor reacting to extremely fast characters such as Sentry, Surfer and Gladiator, so I don´t see why it would be a problem reacting to Clark, especially when slower people than Odinson have tagged Supes.
Yeah, these "plenty" of instance have been addressed and flat out discredited. Silver Surfer wasn't using his speed and Sentry's blitz was actually successful twice during the Siege event, the fact that it was a weak blitz is beyond me and considering even the script mentions how Sentry struggle to go through Asgard's walls already proves it wasn't that strong. Gladiator wasn't your regular Gladiator since he came from the future during Thor #35 and there's absolutely no way to determine how well he was operating and given the fact how inconsistent is his power level due to be completely based off his confidence, makes the feat incredibly unpractical to use, let alone Gladiator actually lacking any visible speed in the instance. I need to let you know that the same Gladiator knocked Thor out during the issue.
Now, let's addressed the bunch of nonsense you tried to show as factual regarding Superman issues. First of all, the fact Superman was actually giving him the back just before he took the beam means he wasn't paying attention to him to the point of not expecting Helspont to attack him like he did during Superman #7, hell, this is the panel that goes JUST prior to Helspont's attack, something you would actually know if you actually read the issue instead of posting random scans you simply don't know the context, or most likely, disregard logical things to fit your delusional approaches...
I mean, you posted 2 instances from the same issue and you left the MOST important panel of the issue regarding the situation you're trying to exploit here. Anyways, moving on with the same issue, the robot wasn't a simple robot and it was 1 of Helspont scout which are quite powerful by themselves, now, Superman taking his punches was due to the fact he was still caring about the people and the surrounds, he was even holding back against him and when he cut loose, which he actually stated so on panel, he literally one shot'd him. He didn't use his speed because he was still trying to figure out if it was a simple robot or something with live. Also, in the same issue he blitzed the same robot off the bat, mainly because he already knew who he was fighting and that he could take his punches. Again, stick to your scans because every time you try to exploit something is just flat out wrong, driven by ignorance or lacking significant context.
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The citation from Superman #9 is rather ridiculous for several things... First of all, Superman was trying to talk her down throughout the whole issue, the comes the fact that she was actually intangible and pretty much untouchable by anything and anyone, which Superman spent the whole issue figuring out how to deal with her... He didn't actually tried to hurt her but understand why she was so upset. Again, you left some substantial context hidden to fit your once again flawed vision... In the next issue Superman #10, Superman dodges her more than once with little to no effort. Either way, stop trying to undersell his speed usage, this is taking me more time than it should precisely because you keep posting this nonsense.
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I mean, this citation of yours is so flawed you even tried to name the story arc while also mentioning the torrent page you rush-downloaded the issue from while blatantly showing you didn't even take the time to read the issue, or whatever goes next for all i care... ThePirateBay? Really man? Could you please at least pay attention to the citations you make?
Thor can and will hit Superman with both lightning and his fists/mjolnir. You keep acting like Clark is untouchable which he certainly isn´t, waaaaay too many people have tagged him, and I am going to mention some of them in a moment. Thor can and will use planet busting strikes against Superman, we agreed they both know they are fighting a powerful foe, so I fail to see why Thor wouldn´t use powerful strikes, Anyways, I think you are confusing some things, planet busting strikes don´t necessarily bust the planet the battle takes place in, it´s comic book logic, I have pleny of instances with Thor performing planet busting strikes without busting the planet, I am going to show you what I am talking about, you´ll be able to see them in a moment when I adress Thor´s lightning capabilities.
Thor cannot and this is going in circles, pretty much because you keep neglecting facts instead of coming with an insightful argument that actually levels the things here. Superman has been tagged by people who doesn't have Super Speed because he tends to talk people down. The scenarios you keep trying to exploit here hardly resemble the stipulations we've agreed on having in this match, hell, i even cited 3 different instances where Superman decided to blitz because he already knew his opponent could take his punches or flat out opted to go that way by not giving any chances, the fact Superman has these factors by default in this match means he will blitz.
Thor using powerful lightnings and Thor using planet busting lightnings are 2 completely different things mainly because one is viable here and the other one just happens when Thor is facing Galactic threats, which Superman isn't. The "disregard graphic proof and assume everything busts planets" analogy again? Not touching that, it's just too... Just no.
I know the context of that instance, but at the moment Ocean Master struck Superman with his lightning, he wasn´t dealing with the Atlanteans, he was perfectly focused on the battle, he used his heat vision to repel the atlanteans and at the moment he was struck by the lightning, he was in fron of Ocean Master, yet he was still unable to dodge it. Clark never tried to speedblitz the fodder Atlanteans by the way, like you claim he "always" does.
If you look at the scans, you can see that Clark was actually paying attention when he got struck by the lightning, so you are the one who should check the context of things before making claims. (scans are not in order, the one in the right goes first)
This is a preposterous and ridiculous approach. First of all, Superman did blitz the Atlanteans in the issue while talking to Wonder Woman and no, he was not focusing on Ocean Master, Arthur was and it is blatantly visible in the scans you posted, i mean, why do you keep arguing like this? At this time i just want to wrap this up and enter the voting session not because i actually agreed with anything you posted here, but the fact i haven't gone further on my strategy because you keep posting out of context scans and baseless assumptions.
Totally focused on Ocean Master and not blitzing Atlanteans at all. Anyways, you don't need to tell me what to do with my scans, i haven't used a single scan out of context in this entire thread, something you've been doing all the time and it is the sole reason why this debate hasn't gone forward, regardless, the irony behind your words is inexplicable because in the same scans you posted, Superman is actually addressing the freaking Atlanteans just before taking Ocean Master's lightning... I mean, how more obvious can it get?
I'll cease to ask you to stop wasting my time. It's no use for me to keep debating like this. Either way, my cockiness is completely supported by my flawless CaV record and my work on the vine, mimicking my way of debating doesn't suit you at all but to each its own.
Nothing impressive, Iron Man did something similar, yet Thor stomped Stark without any effort.
You missed the whole point as if you were Thor and the point was a speeding bullet. What Tony escaped from was a missile and it didn't detonated with him inside the building, he was already outside when it detonated which means he actually moved faster than the rocket, not the explosion per se, whereas Superman actually moved, fought some tentacles and escaped from the expansive explosion of a nuke, which is confirmed to carry enough power and expand within microseconds. I don't expect you to see the difference because you never do. Regardless, Superman has other instances where he operates after the explosion is set off and manages to perform tactics while the explosion is still expanding, like he did in Superman #29 where he wrapped up someone up from Starfire's surprise attack after she actually shoot the fiery blast...
Moreover, he actually did the same thing for Wonder Woman during Superman/Wonder Woman #6 when they both were at the ground zero of a nuclear explosion, which means he must have done it at incredibly high speeds to actually perform such tactic, which means then again, Superman is operating WAY beyond Thor's best speed-wise.
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He also did the same for Louis but i guess you get my point. It's not the moving missile but the detonation which actually makes it a feat and Stark sure as hell didn't move that fast. By the same token, Stark has actually proven to be faster than Thor feat-wise and that feat of yours was only achievable because he can process information as fast as a computer, which conveniently for Superman, was attributed a quite similar feat during Action Comics #14 where it was stated he process information a supercomputer would have taken years in seconds.
Anyways, you took my feat the wrong way. Again.
So, your logic is that because Superman knows and has experience with Flash, his statement is valid ? Then if we follow that logic Sentry, while highly unstable, is the most powefful hero on earth according to Spidey, and Peter has experience and knows him, they were teammates in New Avengers. If we follow that logic also, Lizard is the strongest opponent Spidey has faced, and he has experience with him, and that´s not true, Peter has fought against Morlun and Hulk, both are stronger than Lizard. If we follow your logic there are plenty of statements that would become valid, there needs to be feats to support those statements, which the guy Superman claimed had comparable speed to Flash doesn´t have.
Fact is, Superman was stating so while the guy was blitzing him, considering he was mostly helpless in their first encounter, and by that moment Superman already fought Flash to the point of actually predicting his next steps means his statement is trustworthy. The guy blitzing Superman, moving fast enough for Superman to state he had comparable speed to Flash and the fact he dodged heat vision point blank are feats themselves. I mean, heat vision travels at the speed of light.
The analogy you're trying to use doesn't apply to my instance considering Spider-Man has a very wide record of simply overblowing people's capabilities let alone, Superman stating such thing about a character that doesn't have more appearances than that one, which means he was that fast in his sole and first issue, not like Lizard which we've seen the best of him and we have something to compare with Hulk and Morlun to either discard or take the statement into account. The fact the guy blitzed Superman, which is something Flash already did, means the statement is totally valid.
Thor´s lightning is also planet buster, just as Mjolnir, it doesn´t matter if Superman withstood a continent shatterer weapon, Thor´s lightning is much more powerful than that and it has plenty of feats to back it up.
No.
You have failed to provide feats that suggest Superman would tank Thor´s lightning which is planet buster, and I have plenty of feats to prove it, like I mentioned before, a planet busting strike doesn´t necessarily busts the planet. Thor doesn´t need to use lightnings the size of a continent for them to be powerful, he can do continent busting/planet busting directed lightnings.
No. YOU have failed to provide any decent case as to why Thor would use such a powerful lightning, let alone using the most ridiculous analogy i've seen so far, which is "ignore on-panel graphic evidence and assume everything can bust planets". Regardless, Superman can dodge them.
Here he uses a lightning to BFR Nul, I think it´s safe to assume this lightning is at least continent busting considering the attacks Hulk has tanked without any harm are already continent busting, then you add the fact that this was an amped Hulk to an unknown degree and Thor knew that, so he certainly used a lightning more powerful than the ones he normally uses, yet the city where their fight took place wasn´t destroyed.
Thor was weakened in the instance, he was actually dying because of a cosmic wound im pretty sure you know about. The analogy is nonsensical, i won't address such a folly but to address context... Once again... Thor never KO'd Hulk and Hulk never took a continent busting attack during Fear Itself and the best he did was overpowering the gravitational weight of a secondary adamantium net which made him as heavy as if he was on Jupiter... Besides almost beating Thor to death. So, there's no way to determine if Thor was actually operating to such degree he can summon this continent busting lightning and whatnot and nothing implied his lightning was that strong.
Thor one shots Hulk with a lightning, considering Hulk has tanked the weight equal to that of a neutron star, and several hits from Red Hulk that were causing 9.0 earthquakes and those same hits were about to trigger the San Andreas stuff, it´s safe to assume this lightning was beyond continent shattering, yet the place where they fought wasn´t busted, another proof that planet busting attacks don´t need to actually bust a planet to be considered one, just that it packs enough force to bust the planet if directed at it.
You don't know about Superman and now you're going to approach Hulk as well? Dude, i'm going to destroy you. First of all, the issue where Thor one shot'd Hulk happened 6 years before Hulk got his permanent amp after the core breach in Sakaar during Incredible Hulk #105 which make him stronger than anyone, hence why Green Scar was such a badass. The fact that you're referencing an instance that happened 3 years after Planet Sakaar means Hulk was stronger than when he fought Thor in 2001. In fact, it is stated in 2 different biographical entries, namely Marvel Facts Files #5 and World War Hulk: Gamma Files, either way, here's the former, just ask for the other one if you want...
So Hulk wasn't as strong nor durable as when he fought Red Hulk, moreover, the fact lightning is a energy attack and Rulk attacks with blunt force, something Hulk is incredibly attuned to resist, means the encounters are hardly resemblant or relevant between each other. Moreover, those punches which generated Earthquakes were delivered on Abomination's face, not Hulk's. Then of course there's the fact Hulk's power level varies depending on his anger and in both occasions he wasn't that mad to suggest he would overpower the things you stated.
Stop saying it's safe to assume, there's nothing safe in anything you've posted so far. Do you have any factual and objective approach to anything, all this time you've been using the word "assume" to support your case. Just sayin'
Another example is Red Hulk hitting Hulk to the point of almost knocking him out, those were easily city busting punches yet they didn´t bust the city, I think you already get my point.
City busting punches? From where are you getting this? I do get your point and it's safe to assume you don't even know what you're talking about. You're stretching everyone's capabilities in your arguments, there's no way to determine how well Savage Hulk was operating there, also the fact he was getting drained while fighting Red Hulk making him weaker and the fact Rulk is not that durable either given the fact a bunch of women who doesn't have any city level attacks were owning him, although he beat them at the end.
Thor one shotted Angrir, like I mentioned in my previous post, Angrir stomped Red Hulk, the guy whose punches have created earthquakes, yet Angrir wasn´t hurt by them, Red Hulk was going all out delivering some of his best punches, yet Angrir was unharmed, then you have Thor one shotting him, that´s a continent busting/planet busting strike.
The best Angrir did during Fear Itself was destroying a city block, which is not that great. Moreover, the fact Red Hulk was about 12 issue under Jeff Parker's pencil, which actually downgrade Red Hulk to the point of being overpowered by Hulkbusters, means he wasn't operating anywhere near Loeb's Rulk, which was the writer who gave him all those feats. Regardless, Rulk was getting stomped and Angrir didn't show anything beyond city block level to imply he somehow took planet threatening punches to the face. I mean, Rulk couldn't even get stronger nor hotter during that fight mainly because he was opting not to use his absorbing ability during Fear Itself: Red Hulk #37... Even M.O.D.O.K states that his absorbing ability is the core of Red Hulk's physical nature, meaning his actual strength comes from that ability, which means if he doesn't absorb, he's not that strong...
There's absolutely no proof to suggest Angrir was that strong, in fact, there's no proof at all to suggest Thing under any circumstances operated beyond city block level in his entire publication, so yeah, this is a baseless assumption once again and you keep trying to exploit things like i wouldn't take the time to make a research on the nonsense you keep spouting. You should know by now that i know every single piece of dialogue and contextual factor regarding anything from Hulk, yet you keep trying to hide things from me.
Thor making Odin scream out in pain, when a full blast from Thanos didn´t even move him, so the Mjolnir strike Thor used on Odin could have been city busting.
Thor breaking Galactus´ helmet, when Thanos and Silver Surfer have failed to do that level of damage to him (scan already provided in my previous post)
Thor hurting Mangog and Thanos who are leagues above Superman in durability.
- Mjolnir is an Asgardian weapon and the most powerful of them. Odin wasn't hurt but bothered and he proceeded and grounded Thor like the spoiled blond slug he is.
- Again, no one is doubting Mjolnir's striking strength but the reasons why you suggest Thor will be using such potential. Regardless, Galactus was starving to a very high degree during the entire story arc and still was powerful enough to face Odin and beat him. I could care less about the instance given Mjolnir's properties.
- He didn't hurt Mangog and even Odin himself has failed to harm him considering he was specifically created to not be taken out the way Thor was doing, in fact, during The Mighty Thor #21 which is the previous issue, Mangog actually grounded Thor like the weak character he is compared to him...
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In fact, he was impervious to Thor's attacks for 3 consecutive issues including against attacks like anti-matter beam and whatnot... Thor didn't have the means to harm such a powerful foe, let alone one that actually was created to be taken out via different ways than anger and physical assaults, but to each its own.
The Thanos argument is ridiculous considering during The Mighty Thor #25, Thor fought a Thanosii instead of the real Thanos, it was revealed during Infinity Abyss #3 when Thanos explicitly stated Thor beat nothing more than a cheap copy of him...
Moreover, the instance becomes even more useless towards your argument considering all the gear Thor used against a simple Thanosii... In fact, the gear was ridiculously powerful given the fact Odin himself powered it up just before Thor used it, as he explicitly stated before, he was about to imbue the armor with the OdinForce...
Who's showing context to who?
You have failed to show me any durability feat that would suggest Superman wouldn´t be severely damaged after a couple hammer strikes from Thor, or even just one potent hammer strike.
I don't need to show anything, Thor is not touching Superman that way, even less considering Superman actually has enough feats to suggest he'll be able to react to Thor's lightning, which is ridiculously faster than Thor physical attacks, attacks that can't even hit street levelers properly.
You are also making a mistake regarding Thor breaking a planet as a side effect of hitting BRB. If you actually read the comic instead of just reading respect threads, you would know Thor was never in warrior´s madness, they just thought he was, but in the final issue of Blood and Thunder Odin and Warlock stated Thor was never in warrior madness, he was just angry and stopped holding back, he was basically bloodlusted. It looks like you are the one who reads respect threads instead of actual comics.
I read the comic, hence why i took the bother to actually cite the issue you only took the scan off Google. What Odin meant in the instance is that Thor didn't actually went on Warrior's Madness by normal means and that he was acting like that because Odin manipulated his soul to the point of actually manifesting the Warrior's Madness physically in the form of Valkyrie. He stated it wasn't true Warrior's Madness because that state by concept is incurable, hence why he proceeds and states there's still hope for Thor after figuring out the reason he was like that was because he manipulated his soul, not because he entered on Warrrior's Madness by true means.
Regardless, Thor is not bloodlusted and he was operating totally different from his normal character. Also, i find rather sad you try to use MY punch lines, tsk tsk.
You are the one making baseless assumptions without thinking your response, you are even claiming that you are not sure about the state of the portal, so you can´t assume it´s squishy.
It is a portal that contained stars, so the force necessary to bust it, would need to equal the force necessary to bust the amount of stars it contained, plus not only the portal was destroyed, the stars that the portal contained were busted as well, so this feat is perfectly legit and I don´t see any reason not to take it into account.
It's not baseless, it's a logical assertion. Why would i assume the portal was as durable as you're claiming if they bust it so easily? Thor has never shown that kind of power with a hammer throw and even people like Earth-616 Hyperion has taken it to the chest. Moreover, i think this is going WAY too far with the fallacies and childish analogies. I can contain a small steel ball in my hand but someone can easily break by hands with a bat swing and try the same with the steel ball for it to be completely impervious afterwards. It's not rocket science. Either way, i don't feel like addressing this point, sorry, i can't put it any more simple for you.
We both agreed they know they´ll be fighting a powerful foe, so I don´t see any reason for Thor not to use his powerful lightnings, he may not pull the Demogorge busting or Ego busting lightnings at the begginning of the fight, but if he sees Clark is withstanding lesser lightnings, which he honestly won´t like I have proven, he is going to use more powerful lightnings, he will do anything necessary to knock out Supes. And you are the one who has failed to prove Thor won´t be able to tag Clark, I have provided plenty of instances showcasing Thor´s reflexes and speed, and instances where Superman hasn´t speedblitzed at the beggining of a fight. Now, I am going to show you much slower people than Clark, having no trouble at all in tagging him.
DOUBLE STANDARDS AGAIN!
Feats are called high end when there are not many instances of the character performing at such level, when there are only on or two, even three they still fall under the category of "high end", but then they stop being called "high end" when such character performs that kind of feats consistently, say 5 instances or more, this is the case with Thor, I have provided plenty of feats of Thor doing stuff at that level, namely killing Demogorge, defeating Ego the living planet, defeating Glory, hurting the Celestial Exitar, busting planets as side effects of his punches, stalemating Classic Drax, beating Power Gem Drax while he (Thor) was bloodlusted, one shotting Angrir, and plenty of other feats on this level, so they are not high end feats, Thor has shown he is perfectly capable of performing at that level.
And like I mentioned above, you are the one who is wrong about context, Thor was never in warrior´s madness when he busted the planet as a side effect of hitting BRB.
F*cking really... You're arguing Superman never uses his speed because he has some instances where he didn't yet you come again and state Thor will be using such force even though the amount of times he used it compared to the amount of times he didn't is obnoxiously underwhelming? I can't deal with double standards... It's unpractical to argue against it and you seem like trolling me, hence why this is going to be my last reply. Good job.
I have countered your speed arguments, claiming otherwise isn´t going to fool anyone who can read. I have made a case on why Thor would beat Superman and I have shown Clark´s speed is not enough to give him the win, you are the one failing to provide a convincing argument showing Clark´s speed is enough for him to win this battle, and I am sure you won´t be able to provide one.
You haven't and i don't need to fool anyone, everyone can see how you keep using double standards and taking every shred of context out of your equation to fit your amateurish and delusional approach. Again, i don't regret any single word i've said here and i'm being as honest as i can.
I clearly stated that it was a less experienced Superman and that it had no relevancy, I mentioned that there are plenty of instances of the already experienced adult/current Superman to show he has been tagged by slower people than him, and I have already provided those instances previously in this post.
And yes, Superman was caught the way I am implying, I have read the issue, a tank approaches to Superman, then proceeds to throw a net and traps Clark in it, there is nothing to suggest he just stood there and let himself get trapped thinking he would tank the attack, there´s absolutely nothing to suggest that.
It´s funny that you keep claiming I don´t know the context of the instances I have mentioned, when you are the one who clearly doesn´t know them, I have provided scans, proof and explanation of the context of the instances, and I actually did cite the issue where this happened, I clearly said it was during Action Comics 1. You can´t expect me to name the exact issue for all of the feats from Thor I am providing, I have read hundreds of Thor comics, so please don´t expect me to remember the exact issue for all the instances I am mentioning.
Then why stating such folly? Why making me lose my time with instances that have no relevancy whatsoever to the point i've been trying to prove here? I'm not going to address this kind of points anymore. Superman stood there because he was already shrugging off everything those guys were throwing at him, he thought, as almost every occasion, that he was indestructible and couldn't be harmed. He was a teenager too.
Anyways, i DO expect you to cite every single instance you drag your scans from, even more considering you've been taking stuff out context the whole thread, meaning your word is something i take with a grain of salt... You can't claim having hundreds of comics is the reason you can't cite them, either physically or digitally, comics have covers and it takes you little to no time to look at the issue number. You have hundreds, i literally have 422GB of comics in my laptop where i drag all my scans from and i cite every single one of them so you, people that is watching and future users to go to the issues referenced and look for the context themselves to either agree or notify something they disagree with. Petty excuse of yours. I mean, i'm giving you all the base in the world to make your claims and counter my POVs and you don't even take the bother to read the citations you make. You have shown scans... You haven't shown proof nor explained anything.
Yet, he also took Sentry´s planet shaking punches, and has plenty of showings where he shows planet busting durability.
You mentioned Hulk 3 shoting Thor which is actually wrong, there is no indication Thor was knocked out, and even if he was, he was fine 5 seconds later, so that hardly counts as a knockout or Hulk 3 shoting Thor.
I agree, nobody denied he tanked those punches, but he was still greatly phased by them which is the only thing that matters considering Superman can throw several punches like that at ridiculously speed, just like he did to Orion, like he did to H'el and like he did to Parasite as well during Superman #27 just after saving Louis...
Again, Superman's counts with his Super Speed and coincidentally this was the first tactic he used during the instance, go straight to the blitzing and it's so blatantly shown even Superman himself literally states precisely that tactic. As per the instance with Hulk, i can't fathom from where did you get the idea Thor woke up within 5 seconds if no time indicator was shown in the scan, moreover, it still took Hulk 3 punches to ground him... You can't claim Hulk used planet shaking nor planet shattering, nor supernova, nor reality shaking (LMAO) punches on Thor's face to ground him like that, in fact, that issue alone support my case in its entirety but i guess you're going to completely neglect such facts and start using double standards once again right? So predictable...
You are convienently avoiding the context in which Superman shook the planet, H´el was about to destroy the galaxy, Clark was going all out against him, not every punch Clark delivers is planet shaking, so stop pretending it is. You mention the instance with the dragon as if that proves anything, it doesn´t, only because the narration says the same thing in both instances doesn´t mean he punched equally hard, you need to look at the facts, when Superman punched the dragon, the narration said "punches that can topple mountains" which I have no problem with, Clark is perfectly capable of doing that to a mountain, but the fact is that the planet didn´t shake, not even the field where the battle took place seemed affected, in the other instance you have Superman punching H´el and the narration again says "punches that can topple mountains" only that this time, the planet actually shaked, so it´s safe to assume Clark used more force when he punched H´el than when he punched the dragon, the narration is irrelevant when you look at the facts.
Superman found out H'el was going to destroy several planets after the punches were delivered. Regardless you're using double standards again, which i'm rather unimpressed by now considering you simply don't know how to debate. The fact you've been spouting this nonsense things don't necessarily need to create collateral damage to be considered planet busting or city busting or whatever, is PRECISELY what you're trying to debunk of my feat. Make a decision already, your double standards killed every single shred of dedication i had in this match, hence why it is my last reply.
You haven´t provided a credible reason as to why Thor wouldn´t use his omnidirectional lightning, you say he would be too busy receiving punches from Superman, that´s a really poor excuse to be honest, all Thor needs to do is think about an omnidirectional lightning and that´s it, I fail to see why he wouldn´t use it if he is getting overwhelmed by Clark´s speed, he did something like this against Quicksilver, he realized Pietro was faster than him and used an AoE attack to defeat him. You have nothing that implies his omnidirectional lightning isn´t as strong as his directed lightning, but let´s assume you are right, Thor can use the omnidirectional lightning just to stun Clark and then proceed to use his more powerful attacks.
This is not entirely true, Thor actually needs Mjolnir to summon either directed or omnidirectional lightning and considering he has a tendency to drop Mjolnir if hit hard enough, i believe won't be using those lightnings any time soon, in fact, let's cite those instances... Take for example Incredible Hulk #255 where Hulk punches him and manages to make him drop Mjolnir, which even though it can return to him, he won't think straight enough to actually call it and summon lightning...
This has happened at least 11 times by my count and it's completely consistent, hell, let's cite Indestructible Hulk #7 where Thor gets smacked by a Frost Troll hard enough to make him drop Mjolnir and fly several miles away, which is completely replicable by Superman given his feats, which i'll be mentioning later on...
Yet again, he drop Mjolnir by an attack the sent him flying quite far, but that's not the actual force needed to make him drop Mjolnir, considering Hulk did the exact same thing while also one shoting Thor and make him get captured by both Abyss and Ex-Nihilo during Avengers #1... This last one is interesting because Thor barely moved and the fact Hulk completely KO'd him with a single punch, which makes me think Superman's punches will be more than enough to at the very least harm him significantly...
Hope you see what i'm doing here ;). Anyways, as i said, Superman has the means to replicate this considering he has punched people into orbit and has flat out kicked things into orbit, pretty much like he did to Mongul the Elder during Batman/Superman #6, where he punched him 200 miles into the sea while holding back...
Then comes the fact Superman did actually blitz after knocking someone that far away, namely Orion, so in fact, Thor will be hard pressured with Superman's assault which not only will involve being punched this hard several times, but the fact he'll be using his skill, shown twice, which is completely applicable to the scenario applied in this match. Now, the instance regarding Quicksilver, he didn't use omnidirectional lightning nor anything like that, even though he DID tried to fry him with a directed lightning. He actually busted the ground underneath him during The Mighty Avengers #34 to throw him out of balance, pretty much what he did to Wolverine as well.
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This is a tactic that is not going to work against someone who will be blitzing in the air, or flat underground. Hell, Pietro was actually affected by something like that because he lacks physicals to contend with someone like Thor, something Clark actually possess and has enough feats to support it. Either way, let's continue.
That´s useless, he wouldn´t be doing any damage to Thor.
So Superman punches wouldn't hurt Thor now? But... Whatever.
There is so much wrong with this argument that I don´t know where to start.
I agree that science does apply to a certain point, but this is one of those instances where it doesn´t, I am pretty sure Aaron wasn´t thinking in science and how it isn´t possible to shatter planets in space, you seriously need to stop reaching and making horrible excuses.
Yeah, there certainly is context behind the instance, Thor was hitting Gorr as hard as he could, which I can agree he probably won´t do here, but you are also missing some context there, Thor was actually weakened and severely injured, the necrosword was eating him from the inside, with each punch, the necrosword was burrowing deeper in his flesh, deeper inside him, so he wasn´t physically a hundred percent fine, which means that if he was, he would perfectly capable of shattering planets as side effects of his hits, like he proved against BRB.
I haven't made a single excuse in this match and that's a preposterous accusation. Given the fact my approach, even if you disagree with it, is completely founded by tangible proof means it's valid some way or another. I could go deeper here but i could care less about the instance. Thor was fighting someone who could take on Skyfathers, let alone incredibly bloodlusted given how many gods Gorr killed.
I never doubted Thor's potential to shatter planets as a side effect of his fight, hell, he was doing so in the instance. However, what i find astonishingly ludicrous is he fact he somehow shattered a planet which was significantly far from his fight, when on panel evidence shows lesser collateral damage to planets that were right underneath them.
Lol, it´s funny that you are telling me to look at my own scans when you should do the same, I mean, in the very same scan you posted (and the one I just posted above), if you turn your eyes to the right, you can see a planet that is far away getting shattered, what more proof do you need buddy, stop reaching. I have read pretty much every issue I am posting scans from, so I ask you to stop impying I look for them at respect threads, which is actually funny that you say that, because I think you are the one who looks at respect threads for Thor feats, I have shown you you were wrong regarding the context from most of Thor instances.
You know, of course i did ignored the planet getting shattered even though i blatantly stated i disagreed with the assumption of that planet being shattered by Thor's blows on another planet. Hell, my whole scientific approach was addressed precisely because i mentioned the planet. -.-. I don't look at respect threads at all, for any character, because most of them are lacking context and are mostly based off hype and bias. Considering you can't even cite the issues you take your scans from, you are in no position to imply i do what you do. The last part made my pancreas itch in laughter.
I really don´t need you to think it´s credible or absurd, it´s science, whether you like it or not, in order to shatter planets in space you would need to shake reality, don´t get me wrong, I am not implying Thor can shake reality, because this is an instance where science doesn´t apply.
Shake reality? What does that even mean? How can you even try to explain something as "shaking reality" with science, let alone actually implying science supports your delusional stance. GTFO with this argument LMAO. I can't believe you're actually trying to imply "shaking reality" is a freaking scientific term. Hell... I don't regret a single word i've written here. This is absurd.
I already provided scans to show that you are wrong, at the time Ocean Mater released his lightning, Clark was focused in him, yet was still unable to dodge it. Look above for scans.
Lol.
This makes me think you are the one who is not reading my arguments, I said I knew that H´el was much faster than Clark, and probably would have countered his speedblitz, but my point was that Clark never tried to speedblitz him at the beggining of their fight, when he didn´t know he was that fast. You conveniently keep avoiding context, Superman only blitzed H´el when he was about to destroy the entire galaxy, Clark was going all out and was angry, which is why he used his speed to speedblitz H´el. You are actually the one who is wrong like 98% of time buddy, claiming otherwise isn´t going to fool anyone with reading skills.
If you knew H'el is faster... Why do you need to use the instance as a way to say Superman didn't use his speed? You're missing the point, it doesn't matter if Clark knows someone is fast or slow, he just need to know if it's powerful or not, which in this case he knows Thor will be able to take his hits. Parasite was slower than him and he was exploiting his speed precisely the way i'm trying to showcase here. Clark actually blitzed hell twice, once during the same issue previously quoted, namely Superman #14, when he first punched him while calculating where he was going to land to afterwards proceed and blitz him some more...
Furthermore, during Superman #16, previously to the planet shaking instance, Superman actually blitz him and was indeed his first move considering he popped out of nowhere, blitzed H'el from behind and put him on submission incredibly fast. He didn't wait for H'el to attack, he didn't wait for something to happen and he didn't wait to be harmed to opt and blitz off the bat, mainly because he was aware of how powerful H'el was, which in this scenario, for the 10th time, Superman has the same factors.
In both instances Superman wasn't angry and didn't know about H'el plans, so i guess you're spouting nonsense without even knowing what your talking about again. I can't tell you how tedious it is to deliver every single comment you make here, given most of them are flat out unfounded. By now, i'm just replying because of decency, if this was a normal thread i would have dropped this long time ago.
Talking about reading skills when your reading and comprehension is not something to praise about. Either way, i'm just going to skip the one lined arguments to save time, and to avoid being annoyed by petty rants and jada jada that won't affect my argument at all so take it as you want.
Seriously just stop talking about Thor, the more you talk about him the more clear it becomes that you don´t know him very well, he is actually very skilled, I provided plenty of skill feats in my previous post, hell, I even posted a scan above showing Thor keeping up with Cap when he was powerless, but here are more feats to prove my point.
I know him more than you do and i don't even like him. Thor didn't keep up with Captain America, he kept up with nameless fodder, which is understandable considering they are meant to be beaten every single time. Now, let's have some fun addressing these feats... Regarding the first set of scans from The Mighty Thor #495, they were nameless fodder, untrained thieves that hardly stand a chance against any character at all... I mean, not only they were completely fine after Thor tried to defend himself, but the fact Thor himself stated they weren't good...
Do you how does it look to stomp nameless fodder? Daredevil knows, as he showed in Marvel Knights #4...
He blitzes and one shots 3 guards at incredibly high speed, Thor hasn't done anything like this and it's not going to any time soon, then again, Daredevil is faster than Thor and a lot slower than Superman so this shouldn't add that much to my argument, considering the essence of what i'm trying to show here was already addressed in my opener. Moving on... I don't know why the 2nd scan is any impressive... Thor is not doing anything there and it is against nameless fodder once again. 3rd scan... Alright, i'll concede on the point Thor might not be a total disgrace skill-wise, but he's been consistently a brute in that department, but to address your scan... Too bad Thor doesn't use a sword anymore, nor ignores he has a very high durability and actually tries to show his skill.
The 4th scan was taken out of context considering Thor, during Avengers Disassemble: Thor #81, Thor didn't punch them as fast as you're claiming and the fact he had vapor or smoke being released from his punches is due to completely different reason... Loki was on fire. The fact Thor was fighting Loki who was surrounded in green fire means Thor was getting burned, not only is a logical thing to think, but the fact it was actually blatantly shown in the scan he was getting burned. Moreover, prior to those scans, Iron Man took an attack that set him on green fire and he had the same vapor or smoke being released from his armor and i hardly believe he was vibrating his body so fast he was releasing smoke...
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Yet again, you try to overblown a feat, completely disregard context and flat out ignore blatant factors that are explicitly shown in your scans. I don't know if you actually believe what you state or you're just trying to rustle my jimmies with nonsensical arguments.
It´s pointless bringing this up, Clark doesn´t have the precision Mantis has, so he isn´t incapacitating Thor, he isn´t even going to pin point certain parts of his body to affect his motion and concentration, that´s something Superman rarely does and it´s really out of character, you have provided one instance where he uses that against Wraith, the problem is Superman has had hundreds of battles and that´s an attack he rarely uses, so again, it´s pointless to bring that up.
I was trying to make this more fair back then but to hell with it, i just want to end this as fast as i can... In fact, Superman has an even better precision than Mantis considering he has managed to actually cut an atom in 2 with Wonder Woman's sword, as shown in one of my previous scans, during Superman/Wonder Woman #6, where Wonder Woman states she has a sword that can cut atoms but she can't see atoms, in which Superman proceeds and guides her to the atom in question...
This coupled with the fact Sueprman's X-Ray vision works almost effortlessly and he can manage to scan people up to DNA level with it within nanoseconds as he proved during Superman #30 means logically, he could actually spot Thor's weakest points and pin point them for maximum efficiency.
Regardless, i've provided 3 instance where Superman uses fighting techniques for submission or flat out physical domination through combat knowledge. I think it's enough to show some consistency while fighting powerful foes, i mean, it's not like Superman always fights a nigh-equal foe in every issue, but i don't expect you to see that so meh.
Seriously ? The warriors three are extremely skilled in combat, they are supposed to be the best in Asgard, yet Thor still defeated them in hand to hand combat. You are the one who has failed to provide a credible argument as to why speed would give Superman the win, when it´s something he doesn´t always use to his full potential. And your skill argument isn´t very useful buddy, it is something Clark rarely does.
Yeah, i don't see them being that skilled, even the least skill of street levelers can take on them feat-wise, Thor on the other side, hasn't shown any shred of skill while being powered up with Mjolnir, mainly because when he's mortal or can be damaged easily, he tends to be afraid of dying, like it was shown in your own scan of Thor fighting the thieves. But oh well... I don't need to convince you but the voters, if they think the tactic is actually applicable, then i'm good with it. I didn't went out of character considering the stipulations in this fight.
I am reading your arguments, the only thing you showed was Clark kicking someone in the neck and doing some key hits to Wraith, but he never did it as easily nor as good as you claim he does, not that it matters, because that´s something Clark rarely does.
You weren't and if you did, then you need to pay more attention to what you write. He performed those precision strikes with incredible ease and one of them was done without looking at the target in question. You can disagree with me, i mean, that's the whole point of a debate and it is completely fine due to the tactic being a subjective approach to the fight, objective things like Superman's character development and context can't be disagreed with.
Any feats besides statements to suggest Wraith is faster than Clark ? Until I see them, he isn´t faster than Clark. Again, this tactic is irrelevant and pointless to bring it up, mainly because it´s something Clark rarely does in character, and it is very clear in the rules of this CaV that this battle is in character, otherwise I would be claiming Thor would use tsunamis , winds of a thousand worlds, or his earth manipulation, which I am not, because those are abilities Thor rarely uses in character.
Thor can breath in space, he´s been shown countless times doing it, hell, I could post hundreds of scans of Thor being a prolonged time in space.
The redundancy on your arguments is pitiful. Regardless, i don't know why you keep asking for specific scenarios, the fact Wraith had Superman beat in all scenarios by a fair margin throughout 8 issues actually suffices to support Superman's statements mate, in fact, Superman himself tested him and Wraith easily overpowered him both strength and speed-wise during Superman Unchained #3...
Also, it was factually stated Wraith powers works exactly the same as Superman's and considering he absorbs more sunlight than Superman as explained in Superman Unchained #2 by Batman, means he's superior, period. Now i think i get why you keep saying Superman will not blitz. The rules of the match are "in-character, focused and aware they'll be fighting a powerful opponent", those 3 factors altogether will change their state of mind, but since you're too dense to see it, i don't really need you to agree or disagree on this. Let the voters decide.
As per your blatant ignorance towards Thor's capabilities surviving in space, Thor can't breath in space, hell, no one can breath in space because there's no oxygen! Is not rocket science... Moreover, the fact that even Thor himself has mentioned his powerful lungs and has bragged about how long he can hold his breath, means he actually needs to hold his breath to be in outer space, pretty much like it was stated in Avengers #35 when he was captured by using gas absorbed through the skin...
Likewise, this hasn't been stated only once, but for the sake of the debate, let's cite the most recent instance where this was implied or flat out stated, namely Hickman's Avengers when Earth-13034 Hyperion was addressing everyone's capabilities of surviving in a containerized cube while referring Thor's ability to hold his breath for very long periods of time and his, which allows him to survive without breathing at all...
I know you can find a lot of instances showing Thor holding his breath in space, not beathing in space which my definition is impossible, and the fact Thor does really need to breath. Considering my tactic actually aims to get the air out from the lungs and provoke suffocation by lack of oxygen means Thor can be easily taken down by this tactic because he still needs to breath, and without air in his lungs, he'll faint.
Your tactis isn´t valid because that´s something Clark rarely does in character, you mentione two instances as if that´s any proof that Clark does that, when there has been hundreds of instances where hje hasn´t used his body knowledge to incapacitate an opponent. It´s funny that you think you have proven your point by showing two instances of Clark using that tactic, yet I have provided 8 instances of Thor damaging beings on Galactus´ level and you say Odinson wouldn´t use that kind of attacks, clearly you are the one who needs to stop with the double standards.
*Searching for something new* *Nothing found* *Proceeds to ignore while shaking head* I bet you don't even know what double standards is. The fact Thor uses that kind of lightning against people that is incredibly above both Thor and Superman's tier means he actually uses them in very specific scenarios, he has never used such lightning against someone like Hulk for example, and he has fought the green dude even on Warrior's Madness. I could care less about your delusional view towards Thor character, but what really ticks me off is the fact you keep talking about character development while underselling Superman's smarts and overrating Thor's character to the point of making him something he's not.
I have mentioned countless times times how Thor would deal with Clark, omnidirectional lightning, combat skill, fast enough to react to his attacks and fast enough to connect some hits, that´s how he would deal with him. I already debunked the instance with Hulk, now are you seriously mentioning Wonder Man one shotting Thor, that´s an extremely low showing, something that all people use to have some fun, just like Rulk beating Odin Force Thor, Batman kicking Spectre or Batman making Clark bleed with a bat-kick. Wonder Man has no feats to suggest he could do that, plus Thor was fine some time after that. During Busiek´s Avengers, I think it was the third issue, Thor was stated to be the most powerful Avenger, the roster of Avengers includes Wonder Man, so it´s ridiculous to think he could do that kind of damage to Thor.
Yes, because that's the only thing you do, repeat yourself over and over till your opponent simply opts to question your intelligence. Now, i know Thor has omnidirectional lightning... Has he ever used such thing against a speedster, because from what i can recall of every single fight Thor opted to use an omnidirectional attack, he used blunt force to either affect the ground, ergo, throwing his foe off balance or flat out spin with his hammer, i have never seen Thor using his omnidirectional lightning to fight speedsters.
Anyways, to address the Red Hulk instance during Red Hulk #3, Thor was holding back the whole time, and the fight was hard reckoned later one when Thor simply shat on Red Hulk so bad it wasn't even funny during Red Hulk #26, he even exploited Mjolnir's "worthy" ability on him same as Red Hulk did to him before. The former fight was written by Jeph Loeb, which used Red Hulk's absorbing ability to the fullest which actually made him capable of getting his hands on the untouchable Watcher, as M.O.D.O.K stated during Fear Itself, so in fact, a Thor holding back against a Red Hulk using his absorbing abilities to the fullest is capable of getting the upper hand, i see no reason why the fight is somehow a low showing or anything. Anyways, here's the next fight...
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This was done without OdinForce and he was completely owning him, hell, this isn't even the whole fight but Red Hulk didn't land a single hit and was getting smacked around throughout the whole fight... He was helpless. Thor wasn't holding back that much and he was aware of potential holes in Mjolnir's properties, totally different outcome. I mean, it's not like Ross beat Thor that bad either, Thor didn't even bleed once against him and he was smacking Red Hulk around during Red Hulk #4 as well...
I'm not touching Batman since i'm not that versed with him, but the fact Wonder Man in Ionic Form actually went toe to toe with the same Hulk that grounded Thor back in the 2001 Annual within 3 hits, means he has feats to support him putting Thor to his knees the way he did, even more so considering he was bloodlusted and hit Thor right in the stomach, i mean, even classic Wonder Man took several hits from a pumped up Red Hulk during Hulk Smash Avengers #5 with no harm whatsoever and stomped him so freaking bad later on with a real submission technique... He's not as weak as you think. Even then, i'm not trying to imply Thor gets one shot'd here nor by anyone, but that he can be harmed by attacks MUCH weaker than planet shaking punches.
It´s not fan fiction, that´s the most likely scenario in this fight, of course Superman isn´t just going to stand, but he is not going to be able to dodge Mjolnir, please don´t bring up Hulk, Angela and Steve´s son (you are probably going to mention him as well) dodging Mjolnir when characters much faster like Silver Surfer, Gladiator and Sentry have been unable to dodge it, the same weapon that has traveled several times the speed of light and has already been confirmed to be at least twice the speed of light.
It's the most likely scenario in your mind, not an scenario objectively addressed. Silver Surfer's speed comes from his board and the fact the instance you cited had him thrown on the ground means he didn't had the means to dodge Mjolnir considering even Daredevil has managed to get a hold at him incredibly easy during Waid's Daredevil #30... I mean, how many times you're going to neglect the fact Silver Surfer wasn't using his speed against Thor at all and that most of times Silver Surfer just flat out ignores the fact that he's fast, especially against Thor?
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Moving on... The times where Gladiator actually used his speed, Thor was helpless to the point of being completely stomped within 2 movements from Gladiator. The same case scenario applies, for Sentry and Gladiator, they hardly use their speed, let alone reactions against someone like Thor and when they do, they successfully blitz him. Regardless let's mention 2 more instances where Mjolnir isn't moving as fast as you're suggesting first of all, i guess Spider-Man and his web shooters are faster than light considering he managed to catch an out of control Mjolnir speeding through the air during Spider-Man #2...
Your intent of selling Mjolnir as a weapon that all the time travels at such speed is beyond my thought process, but the fact Spider-Man's web shooters can tag it like this really subtracts from your notion, likewise, Hulk actually managed to move a similar speeds during Indestructible Hulk #7 when he just leaped the same direction of Mjolnir and was going nose to nose with it...
Hulk has NEVER moved faster than light and never will, in fact, Mjolnir almost never moves that fast on Earth and it has moved that fast in space or for traveling purposes, or just when Thor swings it. Either way, your scan is from AvX which is by far, one of the most inconsistent story arcs Marvel has to offer, to the point of Charles Xavier dominating the Phoenix Force with his mind, Hulk actually grounding someone who possessed half the Phoenix Force, Hawkeye harming someone who took punches from Gladiator with mere arrows and Thing beating Namor underwarter are completely fine. Furthermore, his hammer throws are overrated as well, most of the time they barely bother the foe in question, take for example him against Red Hulk, he already knew he was powerful and smart, and still didn't managed to throw Mjolnir that fast, let alone strong enough to harm anyone above that durability. He's done the same to Hulk and other characters, but let's go back and cite Avengers #70, where Earth-616 Hyperion took Thor's hammer throw and didn't even flinch, the best thing about this is Stan Lee was behind the issue and was totally fine with it, which later on was totally fine with Hyperion being beaten easily by other and weaker characters...
Don't get me wrong, i'm well aware that when Thor is fighting Galaxy threats or any other Cosmic being, his hammer throws are actually quite powerful, but on regular basis and as far as the factors applicable on this match goes, Thor shouldn't be using any hammer throws faster than light, which in any case Superman would still be able to dodge considering he has moved fast enough to block heat vision twice, which are very impressive feats by themselves... In fact, let's cite Batman/Superman #8 where he blatantly blocked Power Girl's heat vision out of nowhere...
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He did it prior to the instance too during Batman/Superman #6 but let's leave it like that considering i cited the issue several times already. Either way my point actually stands, many people has taken, dodge or flat out block Thor's hammer throw, there's no reason to believe Superman is just going to stay there and take, let alone implying he's too slow for Mjolnir when plenty of people has reacted to it, including Thor ;).
Yes it is, Mjolnir is an insanely fast weapon, I know Clark isn´t just going to stand there and let himself get hit, but he is going to be unable to dodge the hammer, the same hammer that has plenty of feats going several times the speed of light. All of the travel speed feats from Thor are due to Mjolnir, and you probably know Thor has traveled several galaxies in a couple of seconds, he entered hyperspace and Ego the living planet was unable to keep up with his speed, he once threw Mjolnir to the farthest reaches of the galaxy and it returned to him in less than a minute, that is many times FTL.
Silver Surfer, the guy who has traveled countless galaxies in a couple of seconds was unable to keep up with Mjolnir´s speed.
So I really don´t see Superman dodging a weapon several times FTL, without PIS, characters who are below that speed shouldn´t be able to dodge it, and there is no plot involved here, so unless you show me Clark dodging a weapon several times FTL, he is definitely going to get hit, not to mention Mjolnir can lock on to targets.
So you're basically repeating yourself from the last quote. Anyways, to address the pertinent parts of your argument here, Mjolnir has no feats to suggest he can compete with Silver Surfer travel-wise. All those feats you're mentioning are for travel speed, not the speed in which Thor throws his hammer, in fact, considering Mjolnir is a nigh-sentient weapon it becomes even less impressive. I can't show you Clark dodging something faster than light but i can show you Clark blocking things that travel at the speed of light and analyzing situations in nanoseconds, which is fast enough to perceive light speed movement.
I don´t understand what´s your point with this, Superman is nowhere near Thanos in durability, Thanos is a tank who is extremely difficult to damage, there is no shame in him tanking Thor´s lightning, and even though Thanos lost his fight against Odin, he took some blasts from him without even moving.
My point with this is eve though Mjolnir managed to harm Galactus, that in no way shape or form means he's less durable than someone like Thanos who consistently shrugs off Thor's best blows with a smile on his face. Then again, Thanos is not a cosmic entity like Galactus or the Celestials whose properties can be bypassed by Mjolnir's own properties. Either way, Thor knew who Thanos was and he wasn't holding back, and still didn't managed to harm him at all, which actually back fires at your delusional approach of Thor using planet busting lightning or whatnot to harm Superman when even against Thanos, he surely didn't use them and he had all the encounters in the world to know Thanos is a tough cookie... I mean, the factors that are involved in a Thanos fight leaves little to no room for holding back tactics in Thor's persona, but to each its own, i know you'd come up with some bullsh!t argument like lightning doesn't need to bust the planet to be a planet buster lightning and all that jada jada to forwardly be addressed with double standards.
Exactly buddy, Galactus was powerful enough to tank hits from Odin, yet Thor managed to break his helmet, something we have rarely seen before. I know Mikaboshi wasn´t harmed by Thor´s lightning, but the fact it ripped through him, when nothing in the entire story arc seemed to phase him, when Hercules who had the power to restore the multiverse couldn´t do it, makes this feat really impressive.
Repeating yourself again... Gosh, this is so boring. I could care less about Mjolnir by now, Thor is not landing a hit but as far as Mikaboshi goes, he was pure void, he could very easily be intangible towards Thor's lightning and Hercules couldn't what? Hercules did most of the job harming Mikaboshi, actually, he was the only one who managed to harm him. -.-
Stop assuming things, I have read the Hulk annual, in fact, I edited the wiki from the issue here in Comic Vine.
God help us... I guess i need to do some editing myself.
Thor probably used a less powerful lightning at the beggining of his fight with Hulk, that´s why he was able to tank it, when he really wanted to end the conflict he one shotted Hulk, but this again is irrelevant considering Savage Hulk is more durable than New 52 Superman.
Probably, maybe and perhaps, Thor's 3 stooges. Can you come up with an objective and irrefutable counter post? Regardless, i do agree Savage Hulk is more durable, but that's not the point because Superman's true advantage isn't in durability but raw speed.
Hell, that was a long post, i'm so relieved i actually finished this, anyways, i'm not going to address every single "so" point you posted there because it was continuously and extensively addressed throughout the whole post... I'm just going to say you're wrong in all factors and that i disagree completely. Feel free to call the voters if you feel like it, again, i'm not planning to read your next counter, i'm really sorry but i can't keep arguing against your double standards.
Done, ball is on your side. Good luck and it worth the time up to certain point.
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