CaV: Mr _Ingenuity vs HigherPower (Voting)

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Mr_Ingenuity

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#1  Edited By Mr_Ingenuity

Mr _Ingenuity Alita 2.0

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HigherPower Garou

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Rules

  • Standard morals
  • Standard gear
  • No prep
  • Basic knowledge
  • Win by KO, Incapacitation & Death
  • 10 meters apart

Location: Z'Gambo

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Mr_Ingenuity

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One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong.

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TheWatcherKing

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I'm not sure how fair this is, but T4V nonetheless.

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HigherPower

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#6  Edited By HigherPower

@mr_ingenuity: I dig your title format, and the thread looks great.

Personally, I would prefer Garou to have basic knowledge, but I'm fine with everything else. You know Garou better than I know Alita, so under normal circumstances I'd suggest you go first, but my opener is 80% done (it's basically my revamped respect thread but stripped down and tightly structured) so I can have a post up by tommorow.

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Sy8000

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Tag.

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#8  Edited By HigherPower

@mr_ingenuity:

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Say hello to Garou, the "Human Monster" and hunter of heroes. Like most villains, Garou's motives are fueled by a tragic backstory, but in line with the comedic nature of One Punch Man, his is humorous and quite endearing. Garou was a pariah as a child, and in school he was subjected to frequent bullying by his peers. He grew up watching a TV show called Justice Man in which he would always root for the bad guys to win. They never did of course—a fact that exposed him to the cruel revelation that the world was unfair. As he developed a festering hatred for heroes, Garou's philosophy was centered around the fact he believed the popular will always win and hated will always lose. So he joined Bang's dojo and excelled as a martial art prodigy, and after he was expelled for slaughtering all the other practitioners, Garou set out to become the most powerful villain the world has ever seen and change the narrative.

General Showings | The Hero Hunt

Garou makes his first full appearance in chapter 40 of One Punch Man. He's an abrasive and enigmatic hot-shot, who comes of as predominantly arrogant and antagonistic. His arrogance is not without place however, because he quickly proves himself as a force to be reckoned with by casually dispatching three A-Class heroes who try to intercept him. In-verse rankings and titles are generally meaningless in cross-universe battles, but in One Punch Man, heroes are (at the least) usually peak to superhuman. In addition to that, one of the heroes Garou stomped in his debut was not entirely featless. I am talking about Heavy Tank Loincloth, who shattered concrete with a single punch.

One Punch Man #40
One Punch Man #40

Immediately thereafter, Garou breaks his arm in several places before casually one-shotting him with a vicious uppercut. This doubles as a speed feat as well. You see the masked man who appears to be levitating next to the trail of Heavy Tank's fist? He is Magic Trick Man, and Garou was holding him by the collar in the scan prior to this one, so Loincloth's punch tells us he was aiming for Garou. Garou then disappears in the posted scan, and is revealed to have broken Heavy Tank's arm at the same time he attacked, showing FTE speed and superhuman strength. Here is the full sequence of events.

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One Punch Man #40

Garou's FTE speed is showed again when Blue Fire, another A-Class hero, confronts him. Blue Fire shoots a stream of flames at him from his arm, but Garou was able to dodge it and immediately discern the fact he was using a contraption to generate the flames—all before closing the distance between them and severing his arm faster than he could see.

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One Punch Man #40

After this, Garou slaughters what was an entire room full of A-class criminals and villains, while wearing gleaming grin on his face, and without procuring a single injury.

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One Punch Man #40

At this point in time, Garou was a simple and intriguing character, not morbidly overpowered or anything. His steady rise in infamy and power was entertaining though, and his feats got better with each and every appearance. His next major showdown was against the S-Class hero Tank Top Master and his followers, and this match placed Garou at the lower spectrum of street tier for me. The biggest takeaway from this encounter was the revelation that Garou's skill (we already knew him to be a prodigious martial artist) enabled him with the ability to memorize his opponents fighting styles, and this allocated him with an adaptation complex.

As far as raw feats go, in the realm of durability, Garou tanked a punch from TTM, followed by a tackle and a couple more punches down the line.

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One Punch Man #46
  • Scans 1-2: Garou tanks a punch from TTM.
  • Scans 3-6: Garou tanks a tackle from TTM with some damage (a nosebleed).

This is impressive because TTM was able to shatter the concrete ground with a punch over a far larger area than Loincloth. Enough to where I would say there were multiple tons of force behind his blow.

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One Punch Man #46

In the next chapter, Garou appears to be on the losing end as he struggles to withstand TTM's attacks. He is spewing blood after an off-panel blow, and is bleeding profusely in other areas as well.

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One Punch Man #47

This leans more to the area of endurance and pain tolerance than durability, but Garou is actually getting more powerful as the battle continues. After gushing more blood, he feigns surrender as he turns around and is greeted in the face with a punch from TTM's absurdly large fist. But much to everyone's surprise, he counterattacks just as if not more brutally while simultaneously eating the blow.

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One Punch Man #47

On the next page, we see Garou accomplished this with Fist of Flowing Water, Bang's signature martial art.

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Garou uses it to blitz and pummel TTM with a flurry of quick strikes that collectively have enough power to fracture a brick wall.

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Fist of Flowing Water is actually an interesting martial art, and it's mechanics were elaborated perfectly on later by TTM One Punch Man #48-49.

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TTM tells us that Garou repelled, nullified and redirected all of his attacks. He then says that no matter how powerful your attack is, if you can't hit him it's useless, meaning that this technique (Fist of Flowing Water) uses advanced skill to make Garou's opponents harm themselves instead of him, using their own attacks, power and strength. It is even stated that this return deals double the damage, and Garou targets vital spots and joints to incapacitate physical functions and progressively weaken you.

I think this is pretty cool, because it basically dictates that unless you're faster than or more skill than Garou, he'll always dominate you in close quarters combat, specifically hand-to-hand. All of your punches and blows simply won't land on him. He'll be parrying and redirecting your strikes back at you with double their original power through raw skill, and it will be aimed at your vital points like your neck and sternum. If you read the scans you'll know I'm not lying about this, nor reaching or overselling. TTM explained it pretty gracefully. So in CQC, I genuinely don't see an actual way to circumvent Garou's technique without having a speed advantage (meaning he won't be able to react to your attacks) or a skill advantage (which means you have superior technique and better fighting prowess than him).

However, Garou is decently fast for his tier, and having more skill than him will prove incredibly difficult as you will later see. Garou's reactive adaptation is also worth a mention. A few pages later in the fight (after Garou smashes Mumem Rider's face and taunts the followers to join), Tank Top Master attacks Garou in a visible rage, and Garou knocks him out with one hit without even turning around to look at him.

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One Punch Man #47

He tells us that he figured out TTM's fighting style, and after TTM drops the rest of the match is rather one-sided. Garou blitzes and beats the crap out of all the remaining heroes and followers of Tank Top that were present.

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One Punch Man #47

They next prey of Garou's Hero Hunt was the A-Class hero Golden Ball.

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Golden Ball told Garou there was parking lot near a bar where they could fight, so they headed out. While they were in an alleyway when Garou's back was turned, Golden Ball launched a surprise attack and fired a bullet from his slingshot that Garou narrowly dodged the moment he turned around.

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One Punch Man #50

He then fires another one that Garou aim-dodged, despite being within dim light (it was night time in an alley with no lights). After that he fires a bullet against one of the walls so it ricochets and pierces Garou through the leg.

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One Punch Man #50

Golden Ball refers to his projectiles as bullets, but they aren't the same as handgun bullets as they are fired from a slingshot. So it's hard for me to determine their speed relative to real handgun bullets, but they move at FTE. Garou was able to dodge over half a dozen of them after they ricocheted off walls in numerous odd angles, and he did so with minimal effort and extreme ease as noted by Golden Ball himself. Keep in mind they were in an area of low visibility and Garou had a hole in his right leg.

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One Punch Man #50

That feat already makes Garou well above FTE in terms of reflexes, but he ups the ante a moment later and begins to deflect Golden Balls bullets with his bare hands. This shows increased combat speed and a newborn resistance to piercing attacks.

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One Punch Man #50

Golden Balls' shape-memory bullets can penetrate steel light poles but they broke on Garou's skin.

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One Punch Man #20

Spring Mustachio (Golden Ball's partner) appears with a surprise attack on Garou too, but Garou is again not caught off-gaurd. He dodges all of his sword attacks (which slash apart the alley walls) and jumps in the air, but this was a set up for Mustachio to use his signature technique. He expands his sword (which has incredible piercing power, far more than any bullet) and it shoots hundreds of feet into the sky, going right through Garou's hand. Garou ignores the pain and one-shots Mustachio.

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One Punch Man #50

The next match is against Metal Bat. Metal Bat was injured at the time he fought Garou, but I'd like for us to acknowledge the fact that Metal Bat no-sold a fall from hundreds of feet into the air onto the concrete.

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One Punch Man #57

That's pretty good blunt force durability, and his bat is even more durable but we'll get into that later. Garou's fight with Metal Bat ensues and Garou weaving through his swings and clocking him repeatedly.

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One Punch Man #58

Metal Bat doesn't give in however and begins to swing faster and harder at Garou. Eventually, Metal Bat's swings have enough force behind them to crack a multi-story building in half from several meters away, without directly touching it. The shock-wave from another blow was strong enough to levitate an entire parking lot of cars.

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One Punch Man #58

At this point, we've superseded the territory of "multi-ton" hits. A swing from Metal Bat can crack a whole building in half and fracture the immediate ground, and remember Metal Bat's physical capabilities became progressively stronger as the fight wore on. It's safe to say his single blows are nearing building level after this, and Garou was able to casually repel/deflect every one of his swings with raw strength and skill.

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One Punch Man #58

His speed and agility were also put on display as he danced around Metal Bat's attacks just prior to that.

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One Punch Man #58

Garou's stats are high street level at this point really, with the exception of durability since he's rarely gotten tagged enough to show it. He makes up for it in his next couple of fights though. Garou's Hero Hunt doesn't slow down in the slightest and he targets Watchdog Man next. WDM stomped him due to superior speed, power and an animal-like fighting style. Garou, like Metal Bat, implies the encounter only improved him, and he lunges at King the moment he saw him only to get kicked through a wall by Saitama.

Feat wise, that isn't the most relevant instance for Garou, but his next set of feats come from his battle with the A-Class heroes after that. Keep in mind he's suffered critical injury from his match with WDM (as he was seen limping and bleeding) and was also KO'd again by Saitama. He states his body is at it's limit and he goes to a warehouse to sleep through his aches, unintentionally drawing the attention of A-Class hero Death Gatling.

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One Punch Man #79

I bring this up so you'll realize that Garou's next match was performed with him having already sustained damage and wounds. Even though Garou tries to rest in an abandoned cabin, he notes that he has a fever and still wouldn't be able to move properly for the next 2-3 days.

One Punch Man #80
One Punch Man #80

Needless to say, he was weakened and not at full power, and definitely was not in peak fighting condition. He even explicitly states so...

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In spite of that, Garou still put on a show. Death Gatling had secretly followed Garou to the cabin, but he brought along a band of other heroes with him. They surrounded the base and Garou could sense their killing intent. He then reads up on a Hero Catalogue to gain basic knowledge on their abilities, and he uses it to his advantage. Garou leaves the hut per threats from Gatling, and shortly after the battle commences and he literally teambusted them. There were 8 heroes in total (stated above); check out the roster:

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One Punch Man #81

Garou states that with them, the number of heroes he's hunted will surpass 100.

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And indeed he hunts. The fight is long (it spans two chapters and each was 50+ pages) and I've already scan bombed this opener into oblivion, so I may skip individual scans to save space and time. I cite the chapter if you want to read them though.

Moving on, the battle starts with Garou dodging bullet fire (real bullets) from the hero "Gun Gun" after leaping on top of the hut. He lunges at Gun Gun after clinging to a tree, and while in midair Stinger attacks him with his Bamboo Spear. Garou's acrobatics are proven to be top grade as he twists his body midair and mid-attack to narrowly dodge the spear and land on his feat.

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One Punch Man #81

The hero Shooter then fires a hail of arrows into the sky which rain down on top of Garou, and he dodged every single one. It is also revealed that the arrows are laced with poison.

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One Punch Man #81

The heroes continue to pressure him, and attack him from different angles. Garou's skill and incredibly nuanced movement holds true, but they manage to nearly get the best of him in this following exchange. He gets shot in the leg and arm by Gun Gun while trying to punch Wild Horn in the face.

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One Punch Man #81

He is then struck in the abdomen by the weight on Toad's kusarigama chain before being smacked dead-on by Smile Man's kendama.

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One Punch Man #81

Eventually he gets tagged by one of Shooter's poisonous arrows (which completely paralyze the body after 2 minutes), but not after yet another incredible display of agility.

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One Punch Man #81

At this point Garou is faced with his previous injuries and wounds, a fever, heavy bleeding, fatigue and poison.

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But against all the odds, Garou completely turns the tables. The paralyzing poison is mentioned again, having already been passed the point where it should take effect.

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One Punch Man #82

He doesn't go down, but instead begins to put the pressure on the heroes. Upon breaking the Kendama string and taking out Toad, he reacts to one of Gun Gun's bullets after it was fired and blocks it with the weight on Toad's kusarigama chain.

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One Punch Man #82

He then one-shots Gun with the smile ball and uses Wild Horn as a human shield against Shooter's arrows. After that he catches pebbles thrown by Glasses, and then throws them at Shooter knocking him out instantly. Then he does a tombstone on Wild Horn, and with that he's stomped 4 of them.

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One Punch Man #82

Glasses' next comment really highlights what I was going to say.

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Garou's resilience is unparalleled. None of his wounds, injuries, fatigue or the even the paralysis poison can slow him down. His stamina is also immense, being able to complete multiple taxing consecutive battles while still performing impressive feats of strength, speed, skill, agility and tactical combat ingenuity.

Garou calls out Stinger but this is just a ploy to take advantage of an opportunity to break the heroes' Beehive formation. After rushing them, pulls out the roots of a tree (for distraction and to offset balance) and kicks Smile Man in the face, one-shotting him.

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One Punch Man #82

Death Gatling then opens fire and unleashes a wall of bullets at Garou with his mounted gatling gun. The bullets from this particular minigun are so fast and powerful they literally shred apart entire trees, and Garou dodges them all after they were fired.

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One Punch Man #82

This feat is well above regular handgun bullet timing and I think that much is obvious.

Up next, Garou chases Glasses into out of the clearing and just beats the crap out of him. Stinger tries to attack him, but Garou uses Fist of Flowing Water to redirect his spear and then stomp him and Glasses both.

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One Punch Man #82

The biggest feat of the match comes after that. Death Gatling uses a technique called Death Shower, in which he fires all the bullets from his minigun at Garou until he runs out of ammo. Garou deflects each and every single bullet with his bare hands, so he was fast enough to deflect literally thousands of rounds—each one coming at him at minimum mach 2 speeds (and with enough piercing to blow a tree and leave gaping holes in the cabin)—and he does so while standing only a couple meters away, in the condition he was in.

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After that Garou just punches Death Gatling so hard he breaks his minigun in half and crumples his face.

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The Hero Hunt doesn't end there, but that's where I'll stop for now. Garou gets more feats after this, but I think this should suffice for an opener. What you've just read was simply a chronological exhibition of Garou's feats, in the order of his Hero Hunt.

Skills | What He Can Do

Garou was trained by Silver Fang, the S-Class rank 2 hero in OPM who owned a prestigious doujo and taught the Fist of Flowing Water. Garou mastered the style and defeated all of Bang's other students with relative ease before entering the Super Fight Martial Art tournament and winning. He also has stomped martial arts masters and many trained and skill fighters.

But those are just accolades. Garou's skill is formidable for three major reasons:

  • His ability to memorize and then replicate a fighting style/martial art he sees.
  • His adaptation and adjustment to his opponent (before growing stronger)
  • Fist of Flowing Water and it's ability to use his opponents power against them.

Garou was able to copy Bomb's martial art after it was used on him, and in the webcomic he crossed it with Bang's to form an entirely new technique. His skill also endows him with a high level of battle precognition through move and muscle reading. So needless to say, Garou is incredibly skilled (scans will be uploaded).

Conclusion

I'm currently binging Battle Angel Alita, but I haven't seen enough feats from Alita herself to make any definitive declarations on the overall battle. But I'll go out on a limb and say Garou probably holds an advantage in raw skill (so unless she's faster, engagement in CQC/h2h is an automatic loss), and these feats should put him in the high street/low mid ball park. He's hypersonic+, has building level strength, incredible pain tolerance and survivability, and is immensely skilled with adaptation to boot. I haven't layed out all my cards on the table yet, so I'm interested to see what arguments you'll be making and how Alita's feats measure up to his.

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Mr_Ingenuity

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@higherpower: Just a brief introduction of Alita's combat abilities.

Character Intro: Alita

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Body

Here Nova explains the basics of Alita's new Imaginos body. Which is nano tech that can be rearranged at the atomic level.

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The most important thing to note here is the sword a damascus blade is an ingredient used in Alita's Imaginos body. Which makes Alita highly durable and while she does have limits the only limits shown are insane levels of force and cutting power.

A brief example of how durable the sword is. In Alita's hands the sword has been able to cut through a supersonic waterjet.

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Plasma is a key feature of Alita's bodies and rightfully so since it's lethal to pretty much everything since it's heated to 15000°C

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Forms plasma knives on her fingertips.

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Throws a plasma ball.

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Damascus blade.

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Stats

Strength

While Alita doesn't have much in the way of lifting strength she excels in striking power.

Lifts & throws a steel beam which topples a giant robot.

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In the first iteration of the imaginos body or 1.0 Alita uses electromagnetism to amp the speed of her strikes.

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Speed

Alita has solid feats of speed with no scaling needed.

Here first feat is seeing Toji's electromagnetic punch in slow motion.

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Here next feat is far more impressive as Rakan couldn't even perceive her movements.

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Rakan has is own impressive feats such as deflecting assault rifle bullets with his fingertips. When he himself is fast enough to side step them.

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But wait there is more! Alita's most impressive feat is counter acting tens of thousands of oscillation waves. But what's impressive isn't the quantity of the waves but their speed. Which was confirmed to be over mach 5.

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Although for the feat itself she did have help from her onboard quantum computer named Arthur. Arthur contributes nothing to her speed tho as he only calculates the trajectory of the waves so Alita knows where to strike.

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Durability

Tanks multiple hits from a building size robot while daydreaming.

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Skills

Alita has multiple forms of move reading.

The first form is ting jing which is an actual martial art. By her opponent being in contact with her she can read their movements.

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The other two forms are Kizashi & chi.

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Alita has a vibration technique called the Hertza Haeon which is design to bypass armor of other cyborg and robots.

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The best part about it is that in her imaginos body even the slightest touch can connect it.

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Keep in mind this isn't all of her skills just the most notable ones.

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#13  Edited By HigherPower

@mr_ingenuity:

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"The difference in our physical strengths, I'll make up for with my technique"

Counters | Everything Physical

But wait there is more! Alita's most impressive feat is counter acting tens of thousands of oscillation waves. But what's impressive isn't the quantity of the waves but their speed. Which was confirmed to be over mach 5.

Although for the feat itself she did have help from her onboard quantum computer named Arthur. Arthur contributes nothing to her speed tho as he only calculates the trajectory of the waves so Alita knows where to strike.

Before I begin, I want to commend you on an excellent post. You drove a hard bargain, so it's time for me to up the ante seeing as you posted less feats but better feats than I did. This one in particular stole the show, and after reading the original manga and some of Last Order, I realized that I just might have to concede the raw speed advantage to Alita. I mean, the maximum speed of Alita's original Imaginos body (created by Desty Nova in the final chapters of the first manga) was already stated to be mach 17.5...

Battle Angel Alita #51.6
Battle Angel Alita #51.6

..and in Last Order, her Imaginos body was shown to be radically superior before going on to gain several additional upgrades. Her feat of neutralizing the oscillation waves coursing through Zazie only supports the impression that Alita is capable of achieving double-digit mach speeds. She may be superior to Garou in regards to raw speed due to this, but even then, only by a hair's width—and Garou can make up for it. So I'll take this moment as an opportunity to inform you and the voters that any notion of Alita blitzing Garou is nothing short of unsubstantiated drivel.

For one, even though I admit Alita is indeed faster than Garou, it doesn't matter in the slightest when facing his level of skill. Here Garou actually admits that the speed of Saitama's attacks surpasses what his reflexes can react to (and also says Saitama's speed and power is better than his), but explains in detail how his move reading circumvents that.

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Garou proves that this isn't all talk either, after he dodges multiple attacks from Saitama, moves FTE to him and lands hits in return; completely turning the tables of the battle and at one point seemingly blitzing him.

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One Punch Man (ONE) #89

Garou is dodging Saitama's attacks (and landing hits in return) through skill and move reading, not speed. Alita would have to be faster than Saitama for his move reading to not work on her. Your counter to this would have most likely concerned Saitama's absence of skill in stark contrast to Alita's abundance of it, or mention Alita's own move reading. But I'll save you the trouble right now—both are extremely futile cavils. Why?

  • Panzer Kunst (Alita's martial art) offers no answer to Garou's method of move reading itself. Having move reading of your own isn't a counter to your opponents move reading when your opponents move reading is vastly superior to yours.
  • Alita's move reading is inordinately inferior to Garou's because he analyzes several things she doesn't, and has used it successfully on someone who drastically outstats both him and anyone Alita has ever fought. Ting Jing is useless because it requires extended physical contact with her opponent to work, while Garou literally only needs to look at his. Kizashi and Chi don't require physical contact, but Garou even takes things like point of view and gravity into account so it's just better. But most importantly, she's never read the moves of someone that has stats as great as Saitama's.

In other words, she has no counter to this no matter how you spin it.

For two, the speed difference between Garou and Alita isn't particularly large to begin with. Garou was able to deflect and maneuver through a relentless barrage of horn/tentacle strikes from Monster King Orochi, despite having suffered physically mutilating injuries from multiple fierce battles prior.

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One Punch Man #92

To put that into perspective, a single one of Orochi's horn tentacles is fast enough to blitz Awakened Cockroach..

One Punch Man #79
One Punch Man #79

..who is in turn hypersonic seeing as he can blitz Genos while getting a kick out out it.

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One Punch Man #64

This makes an injured Garou massively faster than Genos (by that point in the story), and a vastly inferior version of Genos to the one Cockroach humiliated was already capable of moving at hypersonic speeds. Genos has feats like outrunning his own canon beam after firing it, and he fought off DSK with one arm, who in a matter of seconds appeared behind someone that was so far away from him they had to use a telescope to see him.

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One Punch Man #24

Lastly, Garou's adaptability can not be overstated nor overlooked. He is already capable of reacting to and tagging her due to his skill and move reading technique, but I'll wait for you to argue Alita at a certain level before saying Garou can adapt past her. Though for current Garou not to be able to, she would have to be much faster than Golden Sperm whom Garou blitzed in the webcomic before he fully awakened. For context, Black Sperm (a much weaker version of Golden Sperm) was capable of outpacing Atomic Samurai, and Atomic Samurai has a triple-digit mach feat in slicing Monster Haragiri over 40 times while his supersonic blade appeared frozen in place. She would also have to be much stronger than Genos, who punched DSK through a fallout shelter that can tank missiles and then through a row of buildings.

Which makes Alita highly durable and while she does have limits the only limits shown are insane levels of force and cutting power.

Can I see some cutting/piercing durability feats for Alita? I know she's vulnerable to getting cut by the Titan Blade, by I actually can't remember feats she has against attacks of that nature.

In the first iteration of the imaginos body or 1.0 Alita uses electromagnetism to amp the speed of her strikes.

Here's to hoping she can strike better than that, because a punch of that level wouldn't serve to do much more than annoy Garou. You see, after his body was already ravaged, Garou withstood a brutal beating from Bang's Fist of Flowing Water.

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One Punch Man #83

Bang using Flowing Water was able to destroy several meteorite fragments, and a single one of them was creating massive explosions and sinking buildings. Collectively the fragments laid waste to the entire city, most of them comparable to buildings in size by the last scan.

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One Punch Man #21

This keys in to Garou's blunt force resistance. But judging from the explosion, if the electromagnetic punch can double as more than blunt force (meaning it's an energy attack too) Garou's comfortably stacked in that area as well. Honestly he can bathe in attacks of blasts of that magnitude based on his encounter with Overgrown Rover. Garou was able to tank point blank blasts from Rover several times, each sending him multiple stories underground over a wide area.

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One Punch Man #91

Again.

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One Punch Man #91

After Rover spammed them, the explosions caused tremors on the surface that were so mighty they spread destruction throughout city blocks.

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One Punch Man #91

If Alita doesn't have any blunt force or energy attacks that can supersede an injured Garou's durability threshold, she'll be in a really tight spot to say the least.

The best part about it is that in her imaginos body even the slightest touch can connect it.

Touching him can also mean her arm gets severed. Though to be fair she's fought seemingly unimpeded without limbs and has regeneration.

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One Punch Man #91

Not that he has to touch her to do that.

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One Punch Man #90

Opening Argument | A Game of Skill

Your post was light so there wasn't really much for me to "counter". I mostly presented some more feats for Garou.

Personally, I think the most important factor in this battle will boil down to be skill. Garou's fighting style revolves around the exploitation of his immense skill and dexterity in comparison to his opponents, and here will be no different. Skill should be especially crucial to this match because Alita's speed advantage is annulled by Garou's move reading, and speed is the most important thing she had over him based on the feats presented. For now, I'm pretty sure has Garou has better durability and better strength, and of course better skill. Here's a breakdown:

- She loses in hand to hand and close quarters combat because of Fist of Flowing Water. I'll post the scans and my elucidation again to jostle your memory as to why.

One Punch Man #48-49.

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TTM tells us that Garou repelled, nullified and redirected all of his attacks. He then says that no matter how powerful your attack is, if you can't hit him it's useless, meaning that this technique (Fist of Flowing Water) uses advanced skill to make Garou's opponents harm themselves instead of him, using their own attacks, power and strength. It is even stated that this return deals double the damage, and Garou targets vital spots and joints to incapacitate physical functions and progressively weaken you.

I think this is pretty cool, because it basically dictates that unless you're faster than or more skill than Garou, he'll always dominate you in close quarters combat, specifically hand-to-hand. All of your punches and blows simply won't land on him. He'll be parrying and redirecting your strikes back at you with double their original power through raw skill, and it will be aimed at your vital points like your neck and sternum. If you read the scans you'll know I'm not lying about this, nor reaching or overselling. TTM explained it pretty gracefully. So in CQC, I genuinely don't see an actual way to circumvent Garou's technique without having a speed advantage (meaning he won't be able to react to your attacks) or a skill advantage (which means you have superior technique and better fighting prowess than him).

I know Alita has techniques like Ausser Stosse that can send the opponents power back at them, but Garou sends them back at double the force. So he is once again superior.

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- Garou only gets more powerful and faster as a fight drags on. While on the other hand Alita will progressively be getting weaker as her physical functions are incapacitated.

- There is a large possibility that Garou can copy individual techniques under Panzer Kunst. He copied Watchdog Man's movement style and Bomb's Whirlwind Fist, but most notable he even copied Metal Bat's fighting spirit which is an abstract concept.

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Among martial arts, Garou was able to copy and intangible concept to empower him with increased adaptation abilities, and that alone erases any doubt in my mind that he can copy Alita's techniques. The only question is whether or not he has the body makeup to do it, since some of them are designed for cyborgs and require experience to pull of like Herta Haeon or plasma imbued skills. But he'd have no problem copying something like Ausser Stosse, for example.

As it stands, the main problems for Garou are plasma and Hertza Haeon. Especially Hertza since it bypasses durability and can destroy internal organs like the brain and heart. But as every underdog should, I have a few more things up my sleeve that I think will give you a rude awakening. And with that-

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Where are the spile block???

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@higherpower:

Opening Strategy

Before I get into all the details of why Alita wins I want got give more background on her martial art Panzer Kunst. Panzer Kunst is feared martial art in the Battle Angel universe due to its perfecting of cyborg combat early on. With that most cyborg martial arts that came after became successful by utilizing only surface level Panzer Kunst techniques. So truthfully the only way to defend against it is to first be a cyborg & two be somewhat trained in Panzer Kunst.

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Such as Zazie when she fought Alita. Alita opted for her most common technique the Hertza Haeon but Zazie saved herself by canceling it out. It's not that Zazie is a master of Panzer Kunst but that level of technique was obtained by most cyborg martial artist when Panzer Kunst secret were shared. But keep in mind Alita could have blown through Zazie's defenses if she didn't risk destroying her own space suit in the process

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Now you might be wondering what I'm trying to get at. Well all that was to say this no matter how many styles of combat Garou may know or copied his chances of defending against Panzer Kunst are currently zero. Panzer Kunst can't be reproduced by human physiology & without the ability to reproduce it there is no defence.

Since Garou is a melee fighter his downfall was there from the beginning as simply making contact with Alita gives her the best chance to perform any of her techniques. Alita can focus vibrations in her arms so opponents take damage simply trying to block a punch.

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Alita can perform an electromagnetic punch from point blank range with no windup. As I've shown above this attack can produce sizeable AOE.

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So Alita's strategy is simple dominate in melee combat & she'll continue to do so since Garou has no to avoid it. Between plasma, vibrations, & electromatic strikes I don't see Garou surviving long enough to come up with a counter.

Rebuttal I

Before I begin, I want to commend you on an excellent post. You drove a hard bargain, so it's time for me to up the ante seeing as you posted less feats but better feats than I did. This one in particular stole the show, and after reading the original manga and some of Last Order, I realized that I just might have to concede the raw speed advantage to Alita. I mean, the maximum speed of Alita's original Imaginos body (created by Desty Nova in the final chapters of the first manga) was already stated to be mach 17.5...

I would like to note the canon of the last few chapters are iffy since events play out different in the last order. With that in mind this statement isn't even needed since the feat presented in the last order is superior.

She may be superior to Garou in regards to raw speed due to this, but even then, only by a hair's width—and Garou can make up for it. So I'll take this moment as an opportunity to inform you and the voters that any notion of Alita blitzing Garou is nothing short of unsubstantiated drivel.

Speed wasn't my argument to begin with, now I understand it's a stat you must address but regardless Garou doesn't stand much of a chance.

For one, even though I admit Alita is indeed faster than Garou, it doesn't matter in the slightest when facing his level of skill. Here Garou actually admits that the speed of Saitama's attacks surpasses what his reflexes can react to (and also says Saitama's speed and power is better than his), but explains in detail how his move reading circumvents that.

I will admit that Garou's move reading is far more advanced than Alita's move reading but you have to keep in mind Garou isn't fighting a human opponent. Things like muscle tension, breathing, point of view don't apply to Alita so in this fight Garou will lose major data point when accessing Alita's style & potential counters.

No you might say wait a minute we see in the first chapter Nova gave Alita's imaginos body muscle mass. But that's just it Nova gave that to her a scientist with phd understanding of biology. Alita recreated her body from scratch & when Super Nova did a scan of her all we see is a basic skeletal structure powered by a a wormhole ractor. And why would she have muscles she has no brain like her first imaginos body did.

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If you want more proof Alita in the current Mars Chronicles has shown she is complete machinery.

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No muscle tension means no move reading, & no breathing means he can't anticipate her exertion. Also Alita has electromagnetic senses and sonar so no blind spots to exploit.

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Alita would have to be faster than Saitama for his move reading to not work on her.

Not true, Garou has been defeated by Watchdog Man due to his inhuman movement.

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Alita like Watchdog man fight more like an animal than a human. More specifically a cat/tiger. She does things such as spins grabs with her tail & pounces. You can see this in both parts of her fights with Toji.

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In other words, she has no counter to this no matter how you spin it.

I think Alita being an android is sufficient enough to say Garou is rob of his move reading combined with her unorthodox skills.

Lastly, Garou's adaptability can not be overstated nor overlooked. He is already capable of reacting to and tagging her due to his skill and move reading technique, but I'll wait for you to argue Alita at a certain level before saying Garou can adapt past her. Though for current Garou not to be able to, she would have to be much faster than Golden Sperm whom Garou blitzed in the webcomic before he fully awakened. For context, Black Sperm (a much weaker version of Golden Sperm) was capable of outpacing Atomic Samurai, and Atomic Samurai has a triple-digit mach feat in slicing Monster Haragiri over 40 times while his supersonic blade appeared frozen in place. She would also have to be much stronger than Genos, who punched DSK through a fallout shelter that can tank missiles and then through a row of buildings.

So you basis on saying Alita and and Garou are at similar speeds is Garou blitzing a character with triple digit mach speeds that was given through a calculation of another character. So if you were to calculate Alita's feats above don't you think you would arrive at some crazy mach speeds that would be triple if not quad digit? I'm not seeing how you can add these invisible numbers up and just decided who's faster.

Not that I need alita to be any faster than Garou as she has AOE to trap his movements and techniques that will one shot him on contact. But seeing as you've already conceded to Alita's speed there is nothing you can argue proving Alita can't land the one shot KO.

Can I see some cutting/piercing durability feats for Alita? I know she's vulnerable to getting cut by the Titan Blade, by I actually can't remember feats she has against attacks of that nature.

I would state her body being fortified by her damascus blade is enough to support that she's too durable for Garou to cut. The blade itslelf far surpassas steel and Garou hasn't been shown to cut anything more durable than steel.

The Titan Blade is Crystalized Titanium which mean it's strengthen far beyond its usual toughness. The titan blade is based of Alita's damascus blade & should have similar level of sharpness.

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Here's to hoping she can strike better than that, because a punch of that level wouldn't serve to do much more than annoy Garou. You see, after his body was already ravaged, Garou withstood a brutal beating from Bang's Fist of Flowing Water.

On a flesh ab blood target Alita's electromagnetic punch does internal damage without even connecting. With that you would have to be very hope full to thin Alita going for a connecting strike without ending it there since her Hertza Haeon would easily blow Garou up from the inside out.

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Touching him can also mean her arm gets severed. Though to be fair she's fought seemingly unimpeded without limbs and has regeneration.

Garou's arm gets blow off simple as that.

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.

There is a large possibility that Garou can copy individual techniques under Panzer Kunst. He copied Watchdog Man's movement style and Bomb's Whirlwind Fist, but most notable he even copied Metal Bat's fighting spirit which is an abstract concept.

I think what you're forgetting about all of this is Garou copied (not master or countered) Watchdog Man's fighting style after getting defeated by it. He didn't defeat Bang despite knowing his fighting style inside out he simply power through all the hits, he can't do that here.

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Your whole strategy seems to be move reading and adapting are I win buttons but that's not how any of Garou's major fights have worked.

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#16  Edited By jashugan

T4V. yeah, man. Should've used current Alita

@higherpower those scans in your second post are outright non-canon.

@mr_ingenuity are these my scans?

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@jashugan: No I'm uploading scans directly from the omnibus.

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#18  Edited By HigherPower

@mr_ingenuity: @jashugan: I'm offended that you guys didn't think I knew bonus chapters were not canon? 51.5, 51.6 and 51.7 aren't a part of the main storyline, but it has good information for the verse. Using it is kind of like using the chapter of OPM that stated the fallout shelter (that DSK and Genos broke through) could no-sell missiles. Or the Vampires of Edinburgh special for NNT.

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#19  Edited By HigherPower

@mr_ingenuity:

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Now you might be wondering what I'm trying to get at. Well all that was to say this no matter how many styles of combat Garou may know or copied his chances of defending against Panzer Kunst are currently zero. Panzer Kunst can't be reproduced by human physiology & without the ability to reproduce it there is no defence.

This is illogical reasoning. Panzer Kunst can not be replicated by human physiology within the context of its own verse, and that's because it is designed for the cyborgs within Battle Angel Alita. First and foremost, you need to understand that Garou can evolve his physiology into something that is not human. Second, if a non-cyborg character from a verse that isn't BAA can copied techniques that mirror Panzer Kunst techniques, arguing that they will not be able to copy Panzer Kunst techniques strictly because of their physiology makes no sense.

But in this case, I literally already said Garou wouldn't be able to copy plasma or Hertza Haeon vibrations (and by extension, electromagnetic punches) in my last post due to his body makeup.

Among martial arts, Garou was able to copy and intangible concept to empower him with increased adaptation abilities, and that alone erases any doubt in my mind that he can copy Alita's techniques. The only question is whether or not he has the body makeup to do it, since some of them are designed for cyborgs and require experience to pull of like Herta Haeon or plasma imbued skills. But he'd have no problem copying something like Ausser Stosse, for example.

Why do you think I would say this? It should be obvious that it's because Garou doesn't need to copy HH vibrations and what not in order to defend against them... case in point-

Since Garou is a melee fighter his downfall was there from the beginning as simply making contact with Alita gives her the best chance to perform any of her techniques. Alita can focus vibrations in her arms so opponents take damage simply trying to block a punch.

If Garou's arms are blown off due to vibrations from hand to hand contact, he can simply regenerate them back.

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And keep in mind the same move can't be used successfully on Garou multiple times due to his adaptation.

So Alita's strategy is simple dominate in melee combat & she'll continue to do so since Garou has no to avoid it. Between plasma, vibrations, & electromatic strikes I don't see Garou surviving long enough to come up with a counter.

He can survive as long as he needs due to regeneration. At the beginning of their fight, when Saitama punched Garou he blew his body apart into multiple pieces.

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You can see here that all of his limbs and torso were clearly separated:

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But seconds later he regenerated and was completely intact:

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And like I showed you, he regenerated his arm after it was destroyed in seconds. So Garou can regenerate his whole body, meaning he can easily heal from Alita's plasma bisection, Hertza Haeon, and related attacks, as well as his arms being blown off due to vibrations.

Speed wasn't my argument to begin with, now I understand it's a stat you must address but regardless Garou doesn't stand much of a chance.

This isn't really a counter so much as it is you flattering yourself.

I will admit that Garou's move reading is far more advanced than Alita's move reading but you have to keep in mind Garou isn't fighting a human opponent. Things like muscle tension, breathing, point of view don't apply to Alita so in this fight Garou will lose major data point when accessing Alita's style & potential counters.

How does point of view not apply? Anyway, movement patterns, stance, energy, and center of gravity should be enough, since the only thing Garou really needs to read his opponents moves is analyze their fighting style. TTM is the prime example.

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No muscle tension means no move reading, & no breathing means he can't anticipate her exertion. Also Alita has electromagnetic senses and sonar so no blind spots to exploit.

Cool, he only needs to analyze her fighting style in order to predict her attacks like he did with TTM. Her lack of muscle mass isn't the end of the world. Furthermore, Garou has fought fine against beings like Genos who's body is also 100% machinery like Alita.

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Genos also has a radar and senses of his own, so don't think you're special.

Not true, Garou has been defeated by Watchdog Man due to his inhuman movement.

Alita like Watchdog man fight more like an animal than a human. More specifically a cat/tiger. She does things such as spins grabs with her tail & pounces. You can see this in both parts of her fights with Toji.

This would have been a valid counter if it wasn't for the fact that the version of Garou I'm using is post his fight with Watchdog Man. That means inhuman/animal-like fighting style isn't a weakness anymore, since Garou is known to grow stronger with each and every encounter he has. After his fight with Watchdog Man, he was shown to have copied his animal like movement style.

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So Alita's animal like movement style won't be foreign to him. What boggles me is the fact that you posted scans from these chapters. And I've mentioned it several times so you clearly know Garou adapted to and copied WDM's movement style. So why do you think Alita can defeat Garou with something he's encountered previously and learned to overcome? Yeah Watchdog Man defeated him once with his inhuman movements, but Garou adapted to and copied it. His evolution guarantees the same trick won't work twice on him. Alita can't take this route.

I think Alita being an android is sufficient enough to say Garou is rob of his move reading combined with her unorthodox skills.

No, it's not sufficient in any way shape or form. Looking at his opponents fighting style is all Garou needs to predict their movements, and center of gravity, stance, patterns and all that is just icing on the cake. The unorthodox skills you speak of is animal movement style, which Garou has already adapted to and thus can't be exploited against him again. Alita's inorganic physiology won't impede Garou, as it hasn't when he's fought characters like Genos who are not dissimilar in that regard.

So you basis on saying Alita and and Garou are at similar speeds is Garou blitzing a character with triple digit mach speeds that was given through a calculation of another character. So if you were to calculate Alita's feats above don't you think you would arrive at some crazy mach speeds that would be triple if not quad digit? I'm not seeing how you can add these invisible numbers up and just decided who's faster.

I didn't want to be the one to bring calcs into a debate, but a consistent middle end for Atomic Samurai's feat is mach 900 (1,2). You speak of invisible numbers but you didn't substantiate the results for Alita's feat, and that level of speed would be woefully inconsistent for her even if it was true. AS can't suffer the same fate of inconsistency since that's his only quantifiable speed feat. And remember, Garou blitzed him, so even if Alita measures up, she'll be at a speed that Garou has blitzed.

Not that I need alita to be any faster than Garou as she has AOE to trap his movements and techniques that will one shot him on contact. But seeing as you've already conceded to Alita's speed there is nothing you can argue proving Alita can't land the one shot KO.

I conceded the speed advantage before realizing that she wasn't that impressive. If you have feats that prove she can tag someone who blitzes high triple-digit mach characters then I won't rescind my concession, but other than that, she can't one-shot him due to his regeneration which she has no counter for at the moment.

I would state her body being fortified by her damascus blade is enough to support that she's too durable for Garou to cut. The blade itslelf far surpassas steel and Garou hasn't been shown to cut anything more durable than steel.

Fair enough.

On a flesh ab blood target Alita's electromagnetic punch does internal damage without even connecting. With that you would have to be very hope full to thin Alita going for a connecting strike without ending it there since her Hertza Haeon would easily blow Garou up from the inside out.

I think I've shown that Garou's body being blown up isn't a problem, and with his possibly superior speed and move reading precog boosting him further at the moment he would have the ability to disappear around her like so.

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Garou's arm gets blow off simple as that.

He grows it back, simple as that.

I think what you're forgetting about all of this is Garou copied (not master or countered) Watchdog Man's fighting style after getting defeated by it.

Yes, but now he's not weak to animal like fighting styles. I think that is what you're forgetting.

He didn't defeat Bang despite knowing his fighting style inside out he simply power through all the hits, he can't do that here.

Yeah let's just pretend Garou's body wasn't physically almost destroyed by the time he fought Bang. Not only was he severely weakened, Bang stomped Garou due to superior stats and skill which is a luxury Alita isn't blessed with. By the webcomic his skill evolved as he combined multiple styles into one.

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Your whole strategy seems to be move reading and adapting are I win buttons but that's not how any of Garou's major fights have worked.

No, my strategy at this point is to actually just punch Alita until she is destroyed. I think it's undeniable that he can tag her, and the best blunt force durability feats you posted for her have been building level. Garou was able to fight against a Serious Saitama for an extended amount of time, living up to ONE's comparison of him to Boros and making him physically far stronger than monsters like Beefcake who destroyed a city with air pressure generated from waving his hand.

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@higherpower:

Rebuttal II

This is illogical reasoning. Panzer Kunst can not be replicated by human physiology within the context of its own verse, and that's because it is designed for the cyborgs within Battle Angel Alita. First and foremost, you need to understand that Garou can evolve his physiology into something that is not human. Second, if a non-cyborg character from a verse that isn't BAA has copied techniques that mirror Panzer Kunst techniques, arguing that they will not be able to copy Panzer Kunst techniques strictly because of their physiology makes no sense.

Wait what?

I get that you're trying to argue that Garou isn't human so his ability aren't limited to his original physiology. But then you go on to say humans are capable of performing Alita's techniques but not giving one example of such. Which throughs me off and has me back to thinking your argument is even Garou as a human can perform stated techniques.

But in this case, I literally already said Garou wouldn't be able to copy plasma or Hertza Haeon vibrations (and by extension, electromagnetic punches) in my last post due to his body makeup.

Well this makes your previous statements make even less sense.

Why do you think I would say this? It should be obvious that it's because Garou doesn't need to copy HH vibrations and what not in order to defend against them... case in point-

If Garou's arms are blown off due to vibrations from hand to hand contact, he can simply regenerate them back.

Healing isn't a sound defensive strategy here you do understand that Alita isn't at all restricted on how many of these blows she can land or where she can land them.

You showed Garou regenerating his arm cool, how about his head? What does garou do if his entire torso is blow away in the process? While you might say well he just regenerates but can he regen fast enough for this even to be considered a fight from then on?

While I didn't go into specifics it should be known Alita is powered by a particle accelerator around jupiter that's linked to a wormhole there is no getting tired.

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And keep in mind the same move can't be used successfully on Garou multiple times due to his adaptation.

There is no evidence of this, as you only get feats Garou has shown not potential feats based on your opinion of what Garou should be able to adapt to.

He can survive as long as he needs due to regeneration. At the beginning of their fight, when Saitama punched Garou he blew his body apart into multiple pieces.

You can see here that all of his limbs and torso were clearly separated:

But seconds later he regenerated and was completely intact:

And like I showed you, he regenerated his arm after it was destroyed in seconds. So Garou can regenerate his whole body, meaning he can easily heal from Alita's plasma bisection, Hertza Haeon, and related attacks, as well as his arms being blown off due to vibrations.

My obvious retort to this was already posted above. But I would like to go over one that was already stated. "can he regen fast enough for this even to be considered a fight from then on?"

I am going to assume your answer to that question will be yes. But the details you provided proves to me that the answer is no. My bases for that is you consider seconds fast enough for Garou to regen from Alita's attacks but you didn't consider Alita's combat speed.

You see even before Alita's upgrade that made her high hypersonic Alita preformed attacks within a 100 milliseconds. And this is confirmed by in the previous scans I've shown.

It took her just over 100 milliseconds to perform a non supersonic punch. (Emphasis on the on supersonic because in this battle alita will be fighting at hypersonic speeds.) With that it took alita only 13 milliseconds to perform a vibration technique.

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With that level of speed & precision Garou will be no more than embers.

This isn't really a counter so much as it is you flattering yourself.

Well that may be what you think but you can easily confirm that statement by my lack of a speed debate.

How does point of view not apply? Anyway, movement patterns, stance, energy, and center of gravity should be enough, since the only thing Garou really needs to read his opponents moves is analyze their fighting style. TTM is the prime example.

As this progresses I'm sincerely doubting the fight will go on for even that long.

Cool, he only needs to analyze her fighting style in order to predict her attacks like he did with TTM. Her lack of muscle mass isn't the end of the world. Furthermore, Garou has fought fine against beings like Genos who's body is also 100% machinery like Alita.

Genos also has a radar and senses of his own, so don't think you're special.

You must be referring to the webtoon. Because the Garou I know made it known his style minimal body movements couldn't dodge all of Genos attacks.

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This would have been a valid counter if it wasn't for the fact that the version of Garou I'm using is post his fight with Watchdog Man. That means inhuman/animal-like fighting style isn't a weakness anymore, since Garou is known to grow stronger with each and every encounter he has. After his fight with Watchdog Man, he was shown to have copied his animal like movement style.

So Alita's animal like movement style won't be foreign to him. What boggles me is the fact that you posted scans from these chapters. And I've mentioned it several times so you clearly know Garou adapted to and copied WDM's movement style. So why do you think Alita can defeat Garou with something he's encountered previously and learned to overcome? Yeah Watchdog Man defeated him once with his inhuman movements, but Garou adapted to and copied it. His evolution guarantees the same trick won't work twice on him. Alita can't take this route.

That's just the thing Garou only copied it he hasn't shown any counters to that fighting style. You can imply Garou has tricks to counter it but you can't prove as much.

No, it's not sufficient in any way shape or form. Looking at his opponents fighting style is all Garou needs to predict their movements, and center of gravity, stance, patterns and all that is just icing on the cake. The unorthodox skills you speak of is animal movement style, which Garou has already adapted to and thus can't be exploited against him again. Alita's inorganic physiology won't impede Garou, as it hasn't when he's fought characters like Genos who are not dissimilar in that regard.

Yeah that worked so well in his manga fight against Genos./s

So at this point there isn't anything going Garou's way. We've seen him fail miserably at dodging all of Genos hits which forced him into hand to hand. Which mean move reading will only stave off a few attacks from Alita meaning he'll be forced to block unblockable hits.

We've also seen him be hit repeatedly by characters he hasn't yet produced a counter for. It would seem he prefers to take the hits until he counters them. So there is no way you can state he runs circles around Alita until he has he has her figured out.

The there is his healing which by your own admission takes seconds isn't going to kick in until Alita has finished beating him him.

And above all we haven't seen Garou adapt to anything similar to any of Alita's skills, with those lack of feats he'll be at Alita's mercy long as she using any of her Panzer Kunst skills.

I didn't want to be the one to bring calcs into a debate, but a consistent middle end for Atomic Samurai's feat is mach 900 (1,2). You speak of invisible numbers but you didn't substantiate the results for Alita's feat, and that level of speed would be woefully inconsistent for her even if it was true. AS can't suffer the same fate of inconsistency since that's his only quantifiable speed feat. And remember, Garou blitzed him, so even if Alita measures up, she'll be at a speed that Garou has blitzed.

Are you serious right now? You've shown no restraint into bringing calculations into this debate and on top of that linking to sites to prove your point. What I'm even more insulted by then calculations is that these aren't calculations you've done yourself and you want me to get through these sites & then give my retort on why I think they're wrong.

You do understand that the reason for my dislike of calculations isn't only there inconsistency but the standard of debate they give rise to. The only thing that can come of this is copy and paste whole blocks of numbers which you may or may not have any understanding of.

I conceded the speed advantage before realizing that she wasn't that impressive. If you have feats that prove she can tag someone who blitzes high triple-digit mach characters then I won't rescind my concession, but other than that, she can't one-shot him due to his regeneration which she has no counter for at the moment.

This doesn't help your argument at all you basically admitted your understanding of your character changed in between my introduction & your first official chance at rebuttal. If that isn't the case then you'll be admitting to not fully understanding the feats I presented. Which would also baffle me because I think I'm doing a suffenticent job for those who don't read manga to understand.

Regen has been addressed and in detail

I think I've shown that Garou's body being blown up isn't a problem, and with his possibly superior speed and move reading precog boosting him further at the moment he would have the ability to disappear around her like so.

I still think it's the biggest problem you'll face that is if Alita doesn't opt to out right melt him like she did to Tzykrow & tried to do to Toji (if it wasn't for his electromagnetic shield)

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and with his possibly superior speed

This statement gave me a bit of a laugh. Which is due to the fact you're using calculations to prove his speed but on top of that you're not even convinced it's enough. Even though I've shown Alita's best feat & have no plans to show any more speed feats that would be inferior.

Also before I move away from this point Garou can't hide from electromagnetic senses.

He grows it back, simple as that.

Not that simple from the evidence I've shown.

Yeah let's just pretend Garou's body wasn't physically almost destroyed by the time he fought Bang. Not only was he severely weakened, Bang stomped Garou due to superior stats and skill which is a luxury Alita isn't blessed with. By the webcomic his skill evolved as he combined multiple styles into one.

I'm not pretending he wasn't but the fact that he was injured during all his major feats can't be used a shield to ignore his low showings.

You're just going to have to accept Garou isn't perfect and at that point injured or uninjured Garou wasn't going to beat Fang using his own techniques against him. Simple as that.

No, my strategy at this point is to actually just punch Alita until she is destroyed. I think it's undeniable that he can tag her, and the best blunt force durability feats you posted for her have been building level. Garou was able to fight against a Serious Saitama for an extended amount of time, living up to ONE's comparison of him to Boros and making him physically far stronger than monsters like Beefcake who destroyed a city with air pressure generated from waving his hand.

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this. You're using the authors statements but not showing any context of what that mean in terms of feats.

I assume you know or I at least hope you do that martial artist in fiction have never been about their destructive capacity but the effectiveness of their stikes. And I'm not talking about potency B.S. Take marvel for example Mantis is considered peak human and she can nerve strike Thor. There is also WildStrom/DC where character like Midnighter can bust the ear drums of characters strong enough to tank nukes.

What I'm stating is ABC logic doesn't apply to martial artist not that it should be applied to most debates anyway. Whatever point you were trying to make here you did a particularly poor job of conveying it.

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Where are those conclusions at.

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#22  Edited By HigherPower

*Attention*

Alright, so at this point I think it's pretty obvious for anyone who has been genuinely reading this debate that my opponent has been clearly winning up until now. Originally I was using strictly manga feats for Garou, and because of this, I was legitimately seconds away from conceding the match after Mr_Ingenuity posted his opener. His last rebuttal again had me on the brink of just giving up and sweeping this embarrassment under the rug, but I don't know whether it's a combination of my arrogance, my need to prove myself for no reason, unwillingness to quit or deep admiration for Mr_I that makes me want to continue.

To @mr_ingenuity, I just want to commend you on a fantastic debate, and you've once again reminded me why you're one of my favorite debaters on this site. To anyone who's reading this and has made up their mind to vote for him, I can totally understand that, but I ask that you at least give me a chance to correct my errors thus far and display my best performance. I haven't been going the extra mile or putting in considerable effort until now. This will be one of my "be all end all" posts, which I always use when I think I'm about to lose a CaV. Every time it's come out, I've never lost, and I'm not about to start today.

Apologies/Forfeited Arguments

As always with these kind of posts, I start off by first apologizing for sub-par performance, before dropping arguments that have been weighing me down and then reformatting my posts and attacking at a new angle.

In this CaV, what I'll be apologizing for is my laziness and the arguments I'm dropping, because of how bad they were. That in addition to things like linking VS battles calculations in order to prove speed, when my opponent didn't bother arguing it; which in retrospect is one of the dumbest stunts I've pulled in a CaV. I'll maintain my stance on Garou having greater strength and durability though, which are two points that stood unchallenged. The only thing that's left to debate is skill and the battle at large.

So to conclude, speed will not be debated from here on out, and I apologize for my lackluster debating thus far. I've also cut out several other parts of the debate; arguments which I felt weren't relevant to the match or that I didn't need to make anymore.

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I get that you're trying to argue that Garou isn't human so his ability aren't limited to his original physiology. But then you go on to say humans are capable of performing Alita's techniques but not giving one example of such. Which throughs me off and has me back to thinking your argument is even Garou as a human can perform stated techniques.

This wasn't my argument at all. You completely misconstrued the message I was trying to convey, and in this situation, I'd have to blame it on your reading comprehension as opposed to my communication skills. To start with, you understood the meaning of the comment I made in which I stated Garou can evolve from human physiology. The second leg of my statement had no relation to that one. What I was trying to say there was, you shouldn't argue that Panzer Kunst can only be performed by cyborgs within Battle Angel Alita strictly because they're cyborgs.

The reasoning for that is the fact there are many characters in fiction who can copy virtually any type of ability, and there are also many non-cyborg characters in fiction who can do things like manipulate both acute and widespread vibrations for various purposes including attack. If you want specific examples, then some Speed Force users can utilize vibrations, and so can Yo Shindo from My Hero Academia. Zebra from Toriko actually has a technique very similar in effect to Hertza Haeon called Beat Punch, in which he sends vibrations through his opponents to destroy their organs internally.

No Caption Provided

And I have no doubt in my mind that characters like Medaka Kurokami would be able to copy Zebra or Shindo's abilities (or 666 Satan, but he's not human). So they would be able to copy Alita's techniques as well, which is why I said you can't argue certain Panzer Kunst techniques are exclusive to cyborgs only because of their physiology, or that humans can't replicate it because they're human.

Well this makes your previous statements make even less sense.

No, you were overthinking when you attributed it to Garou, who I already said likely wouldn't be able to copy some of Alita's techniques. My refutation of your logic was simply that—a refutation of your logic. That's why I called you reasoning illogical in my previous post, and went on to explain why before having to re-explain further just now.

Healing isn't a sound defensive strategy here you do understand that Alita isn't at all restricted on how many of these blows she can land or where she can land them.

You showed Garou regenerating his arm cool, how about his head? What does garou do if his entire torso is blow away in the process? While you might say well he just regenerates but can he regen fast enough for this even to be considered a fight from then on?

If Alita throws a blow at his head, Garou will parry it which would result in his arm getting blown off. He will regenerate his arm immediately and then continue the fight. I literally already showed Garou regenerating his torso (and limbs) after getting them blown apart by Saitama's punch in those scans... you should pay attention more. I didn't only show him healing his arm. You make good points about the speed of Garou's regeneration later on, so I'll address them then.

Garou is a martial arts prodigy in every sense of the word. Even you agreed that he is superior to Alita in terms of technical skill. Alita's skill is only lethal because certain techniques like HH that ignore conventional durability, but when you have someone like Garou who can regenerate his limbs and nearly 50% of his total body composition within a single comic panel while fighting hypersonic characters, then that technique loses a lot of if not all of it's weight.

While I didn't go into specifics it should be known Alita is powered by a particle accelerator around jupiter that's linked to a wormhole there is no getting tired.

If you're trying to use this to say Alita will eventually overtax Garou's healing due to supposedly limitless energy reserves, just know that you'll be completely and unfairly ignoring Garou's own damage output. Like, have you ever stopped to consider the fact that they will be trading blows? I've already rebutted your counter to Garou's healing which I think saves him from getting one-shotted by vibrations, so now it's your turn to prove that Alita can tank repeated strikes from him. Monster Garou benefits from scaling above monsters like Beefcake (who can one-shot small cities with the air pressure of him waving his hand) Carnage Kabuto, and Deep Sea King. Many people actually scale him to Boros due to this Word of God statement made by the series' author:

Garou vs Boros

[6]ONE: Garou or Boros, who would win? Before, Boros was definitely the stronger one, but Garou is now a near-perfect monster. I don't really know. A good match . . . I do believe Garou is stronger in close combat where things like punches and kicks can generally be avoided.

ONE said it was "a good match" (in other words an even match), with Garou having the advantage in close combat since he would be able to avoid things like punches and kicks (presumably due to his move reading like we saw against Saitama). In terms of overall stats, I think it'd be fair to put them relatively close to each other based on ONE's statement, mostly since they're predominantly physical fighters—so for a match between them to be even they would have to be comparable. To put that into perspective for those who aren't intimately familiar with One Punch Man, a single blow from Boros released so much energy that it was capable of melting a stupefying portion of his ship, even after Saitama absorbed most of the force behind the blow. For context, Boros' ship is roughly city sized.

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And later he dialed it up to 11 by kicking Saitama from the Earth all the way to the Moon...

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You can't even begin to tell me that Alita can tank strikes of this magnitude. That means the only options you have left to counter this is by saying something along the lines of "You're scaling Garou to Boros through an ambiguous Word of God statement? Pathetic" or something similar. In order to avoid debating semantics over the statement itself, I just want to state that there is absolutely nothing contradicting Garou scaling to Boros. Just think about it for a second... both of them are the physically strongest villains we've seen in the series to date; the only characters who Saitama has fought for more than a page. Even the creator of the series doesn't know who would win in a fight, and a fight between them is guaranteed to include exchanging blows. How would they not be peers as far as stats are concerned?

The next argument I can envision you using as a counter is the fact that Garou is extremely skilled, so he doesn't need to be as strong as his opponents to keep up with them in close combat (meaning you wouldn't think he'd scale to Boros). But tell me, how many people has Garou fought who were actually anywhere near as skilled as him? There are plenty of instances I can cite that show that Garou still struggles against opponents who are stronger than he is, and his battle with Superalloy Darkshine is a prime example. Garou usually needs to adapt to his opponent in order to be on the same level as them in stats, allowing to compete in the match. In other words, a fight between Garou at his absolute strongest (who is comparable to Boros) would still have comparable stats to Boros. And that's the version of Garou I'm using here, seeing as you allowed me to argue webcomic feats.

The last possible rebuttal I can see you making is the validity of Word of God statements in general. That would be a very subjective argument and thus not the best route for you to take, but I'll counter it preemptively anyway. Personally, I believe WoG statements are worth as much as feats. Neither should take precedence over the other, and that's how it should be. Arguing that one is superior leads to debates over showings like Flash's Korea nuke feat, in which the feat itself was over 13 trillion times the speed of light but the authot/narrator placed it at just under the speed of light.

And with that, I think I've proved that Garou can't get one-shotted by Alita like you claim, and the moment they make physical contact, she'll explode seeing as Garou is more or less peer with Boros in terms of stats and she can't tank hits half as strong as his.

There is no evidence of this, as you only get feats Garou has shown not potential feats based on your opinion of what Garou should be able to adapt to.

Are you serious? Did you literally just say there's no evidence that the same moves can't be used on Garou multiple times due to his adaptation? The hell are you on about... this is flagrantly and explicitly false. Once Garou figures out the moves of his opponent, those same moves can't be used on him again.

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And that's not just a boast either, I remember mentioning Tank Top Master and posting the scan of Garou hitting him in the face as he was about to strike, due to figuring out his fighting style. I'm posting it again since you seem to have selective memory...

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Then there's his fight with Darkshine in which the techniques that were significantly harming Garou became less effective as the fight progressed because Garou got faster and stronger. It came to the point Garou was able to block Darkshine's Bazooka punch with his hands, when earlier a weaker tackle shattered his rib cage.

I get that you're trying to say that arguing Garou being able to adapt to Alita's fighting style is an NLF (since the ability is susceptible to NLF due to having shown no limits) but it's almost as if you haven't grasped the fact Garou has adapted to people more powerful than her like Saitama. Sure, Alita is more skilled than anyone Garou has ever fought, so adapting to her style specifically would definitely be difficult. However, Garou has not only been in a situation where he's faced an aberrant, animal-based fighting style or a martial style that he was unfamiliar with (and learned from it), but in terms of technical skill he is Alita's better. So there is actually no argument against Garou being able to read to Alita's physical movement patterns, other than your denial and refusal to accept the most elementary logic in order to increase the chances of your characters victory.

My obvious retort to this was already posted above. But I would like to go over one that was already stated. "can he regen fast enough for this even to be considered a fight from then on?"

I am going to assume your answer to that question will be yes. But the details you provided proves to me that the answer is no. My bases for that is you consider seconds fast enough for Garou to regen from Alita's attacks but you didn't consider Alita's combat speed.

You see even before Alita's upgrade that made her high hypersonic Alita preformed attacks within a 100 milliseconds. And this is confirmed by in the previous scans I've shown.

It took her just over 100 milliseconds to perform a non supersonic punch. (Emphasis on the on supersonic because in this battle alita will be fighting at hypersonic speeds.) With that it took alita only 13 milliseconds to perform a vibration technique.

With that level of speed & precision Garou will be no more than embers.

This scenario you've laid out can only be possible if Garou just stood there and let Alita attack him. Between his move reading, adaptation, progressively increasing speed, and the fact that his physical strength is enough to one-shot Alita on contact roughly scaling to Boros, I think it's safe to say that she would only be able to overload his healing factor if he didn't fight back. Why? She will be tagging him at the exact same moment he tags her. The only difference is that her attacks are lethal only if they accumulate and won't immediately one-shot Garou. She has to overtax his regeneration. While on the other hand, physical blows in the city to multi-mountain level tier can one-shot her on contact.

As this progresses I'm sincerely doubting the fight will go on for even that long.

Me too. The second I hit you you're dead. But you have to overtax my regeneration over however many milliseconds. Even if I can't regenerate that fast, you're dying before I do.

You must be referring to the webtoon. Because the Garou I know made it known his style minimal body movements couldn't dodge all of Genos attacks.

Human Garou was weakened when he fought Genos. He one-shotted Genos in the webcomic, and dodged attacks from faster and more skilled people such as Lightspeed Flash. So try again.

That's just the thing Garou only copied it he hasn't shown any counters to that fighting style. You can imply Garou has tricks to counter it but you can't prove as much.

What sense does this make? Copying an ability is a counter to that ability in and of itself. If you copy a technique, that technique can't be used against you successfully as long as you use it against your opponent as well.

Yeah that worked so well in his manga fight against Genos./s

So at this point there isn't anything going Garou's way. We've seen him fail miserably at dodging all of Genos hits which forced him into hand to hand. Which mean move reading will only stave off a few attacks from Alita meaning he'll be forced to block unblockable hits.

Jesus Christ, Garou didn't even make an attempt to read Genos' moves. He was focused on only escaping because his body was destroyed after the extremely taxing battle with the A-Class heroes. Garou was literally limping while clutching his wounds and gasping for water the moment a newly improved Genos showed up to fight him:

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It's mind blowing how shamelessly you're using such a bad argument. In my OPENER I showed that Garou was in bad condition even BEFORE he started fighting the A-Class heroes. You can't use anti-feats for a character when the character in question was drastically weakened.

We've also seen him be hit repeatedly by characters he hasn't yet produced a counter for. It would seem he prefers to take the hits until he counters them. So there is no way you can state he runs circles around Alita until he has he has her figured out.

Who are you talking about? Whoever it is, anytime Garou takes repeated hits from someone before adapting to them, he has managed to touch them at least once in exchange (Bang, Saitama, Darkshine, TTM) but if Garou touches Alita she dies.

The there is his healing which by your own admission takes seconds isn't going to kick in until Alita has finished beating him him.

Alita isn't going to beat him in before he touches her once.

And above all we haven't seen Garou adapt to anything similar to any of Alita's skills, with those lack of feats he'll be at Alita's mercy long as she using any of her Panzer Kunst skills.

While I don't think he has to anymore, I've addressed the possibility of Garou adapting to her already.

I still think it's the biggest problem you'll face that is if Alita doesn't opt to out right melt him like she did to Tzykrow & tried to do to Toji (if it wasn't for his electromagnetic shield)

I highly doubt Alita would opt to melt a random person she has no knowledge on and in a random encounter.

Not that simple from the evidence I've shown.

The evidence you showed was that Alita can attack faster than Garou can regenerate his entire body. You never showed any evidence to say he can't regenerate just his arm at all.

I'm not pretending he wasn't but the fact that he was injured during all his major feats can't be used a shield to ignore his low showings.

If you're injured and you perform a good feat, then the feat is made more impressive due to your injury. In the case of Genos and Bang, Garou was weaker than he was when he performed those good feats, and at that point in the story they were simply stronger than him. I'm using a version of Garou stronger than the one from that arc anyway, so it doesn't even really make sense to use those instances as anti-feats, since he's more powerful in the webcomic as a monster than he was when he fought Genos or Bang.

You're just going to have to accept Garou isn't perfect and at that point injured or uninjured Garou wasn't going to beat Fang using his own techniques against him. Simple as that.

Ok.

I assume you know or I at least hope you do that martial artist in fiction have never been about their destructive capacity but the effectiveness of their stikes. And I'm not talking about potency B.S. Take marvel for example Mantis is considered peak human and she can nerve strike Thor. There is also WildStrom/DC where character like Midnighter can bust the ear drums of characters strong enough to tank nukes.

What I'm stating is ABC logic doesn't apply to martial artist not that it should be applied to most debates anyway. Whatever point you were trying to make here you did a particularly poor job of conveying it.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Monster Garou scales to Boros in stats so if he hits Alita she dies. Doesn't even have anything to do with skill or martial arts.

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Is this still happening?

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@mr_ingenuity: We can do another one but I recall you mentioning something about making another post.

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@higherpower: IIRC I only mention doing another post if we ended it there. But then we already came to a conclusion so I didn't think it was necessary.

I could still make one then we can move on to voting.

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@higherpower

Rebuttal II

This wasn't my argument at all. You completely misconstrued the message I was trying to convey, and in this situation, I'd have to blame it on your reading comprehension as opposed to my communication skills. To start with, you understood the meaning of the comment I made in which I stated Garou can evolve from human physiology. The second leg of my statement had no relation to that one. What I was trying to say there was, you shouldn't argue that Panzer Kunst can only be performed by cyborgs within Battle Angel Alita strictly because they're cyborgs.

My reading comprehension? Maybe we should focus on your ability to make a cohesive point. First off we're on the topic of what Garou can do. But instead of just concluding Garou would fail to copy Alita's techniques you went on some rant about copying within all of fiction.

What does Zebra, & the speed force have to do with Garou, the obvious answer is nothing. I think you've confused debating with word count. Something you've probably picked up from school, but a word of advice no one is grading you on the amount of words you can type.

The reasoning for that is the fact there are many characters in fiction who can copy virtually any type of ability, and there are also many non-cyborg characters in fiction who can do things like manipulate both acute and widespread vibrations for various purposes including attack. If you want specific examples, then some Speed Force users can utilize vibrations, and so can Yo Shindo from My Hero Academia. Zebra from Toriko actually has a technique very similar in effect to Hertza Haeon called Beat Punch, in which he sends vibrations through his opponents to destroy their organs internally.

And I have no doubt in my mind that characters like Medaka Kurokami would be able to copy Zebra or Shindo's abilities (or 666 Satan, but he's not human). So they would be able to copy Alita's techniques as well, which is why I said you can't argue certain Panzer Kunst techniques are exclusive to cyborgs only because of their physiology, or that humans can't replicate it because they're human.

So you learned word count but not the ability to stay on topic, that's a failing grade.

No, you were overthinking when you attributed it to Garou, who I already said likely wouldn't be able to copy some of Alita's techniques. My refutation of your logic was simply that—a refutation of your logic. That's why I called you reasoning illogical in my previous post, and went on to explain why before having to re-explain further just now.

Ah so it's your reading comprehension that we should be questioning. You're arguing a point I never made, with characters you are not debating. At one point I thought this was a distraction from all concessions you've made through out the debate but that's giving you too much credit.

If Alita throws a blow at his head, Garou will parry it which would result in his arm getting blown off. He will regenerate his arm immediately and then continue the fight. I literally already showed Garou regenerating his torso (and limbs) after getting them blown apart by Saitama's punch in those scans... you should pay attention more. I didn't only show him healing his arm. You make good points about the speed of Garou's regeneration later on, so I'll address them then.

What, I need to pay more attention? I think you're arguing with a fictional version of me in your head. You start by giving a counter which is expected. But you move on to try an insult me based on a counter you just gave. How does that work? Was no response there no response in your head that you were satisfied with. So you went through every argument with the fictional version of me & concluded he wasn't paying attention.

I also made the point of Garou's regen speed here as well. Which is kind of critical when you think about it. Garou gets his arm(s) blown off then what? I would think Alita blows his head off, he's not regenerating in milliseconds.

Garou is a martial arts prodigy in every sense of the word. Even you agreed that he is superior to Alita in terms of technical skill. Alita's skill is only lethal because certain techniques like HH that ignore conventional durability, but when you have someone like Garou who can regenerate his limbs and nearly 50% of his total body composition within a single comic panel while fighting hypersonic characters, then that technique loses a lot of if not all of it's weight.

Garou's martial arts knowledge has no bearing on this. As he's encountered a move he can't defend against nor copy. Which is the weight of the techniques Alita uses. You're arguing as if Alita needs to one shot Garou to win and that isn't the case.

If you're trying to use this to say Alita will eventually overtax Garou's healing due to supposedly limitless energy reserves, just know that you'll be completely and unfairly ignoring Garou's own damage output. Like, have you ever stopped to consider the fact that they will be trading blows?

You've yet to show a single striking feat for Garou, Alita can't withstand. You're absolute best for Garou is scaling him to Fang who only destroyed smaller meteor fragments. Not even large building busting all things considered.

I've already rebutted your counter to Garou's healing which I think saves him from getting one-shotted by vibrations, so now it's your turn to prove that Alita can tank repeated strikes from him.

You haven't I'll even quote you. "You make good points about the speed of Garou's regeneration later on, so I'll address them then."

Monster Garou benefits from scaling above monsters like Beefcake (who can one-shot small cities with the air pressure of him waving his hand) Carnage Kabuto, and Deep Sea King. Many people actually scale him to Boros due to this Word of God statement made by the series' author:

NotLikeThis. You trying to give me an aneurysm? Your scaling with zero feats that's even city block level. But you're convinced that Garou hits harder than Beefcake. And to justify this you use author statements with zero feats I should stress. On top of that you quote the wiki which cites and links to a reddit thread that you should have quoted and linked yourself.

Your character doesn't have any feats. Where is your god now?

You can't even begin to tell me that Alita can tank strikes of this magnitude. That means the only options you have left to counter this is by saying something along the lines of "You're scaling Garou to Boros through an ambiguous Word of God statement? Pathetic" or something similar. In order to avoid debating semantics over the statement itself, I just want to state that there is absolutely nothing contradicting Garou scaling to Boros. Just think about it for a second... both of them are the physically strongest villains we've seen in the series to date; the only characters who Saitama has fought for more than a page. Even the creator of the series doesn't know who would win in a fight, and a fight between them is guaranteed to include exchanging blows. How would they not be peers as far as stats are concerned?

I don't need to since we're not even discussing an outlier, but the author's opinion. Your word of god statements doesn't even make any sense, considering even god has feats. If your god actually held that opinion as true he would come down and write it on stone tablets. Or in layman's terms give the feats within the story.

Quite frankly this is worse than Collapsing Star Roaring Cannon. You know the one attack which the databook confirms (I use that term loosely) would obliterate a star.

Is your alt by any chance RealityWarper?

The next argument I can envision you using as a counter is the fact that Garou is extremely skilled, so he doesn't need to be as strong as his opponents to keep up with them in close combat (meaning you wouldn't think he'd scale to Boros). But tell me, how many people has Garou fought who were actually anywhere near as skilled as him? There are plenty of instances I can cite that show that Garou still struggles against opponents who are stronger than he is, and his battle with Superalloy Darkshine is a prime example. Garou usually needs to adapt to his opponent in order to be on the same level as them in stats, allowing to compete in the match. In other words, a fight between Garou at his absolute strongest (who is comparable to Boros) would still have comparable stats to Boros. And that's the version of Garou I'm using here, seeing as you allowed me to argue webcomic feats.

Tell that fictional version of me in your head he's a shit tier debater. Moving on.

The last possible rebuttal I can see you making is the validity of Word of God statements in general. That would be a very subjective argument and thus not the best route for you to take, but I'll counter it preemptively anyway. Personally, I believe WoG statements are worth as much as feats. Neither should take precedence over the other, and that's how it should be. Arguing that one is superior leads to debates over showings like Flash's Korea nuke feat, in which the feat itself was over 13 trillion times the speed of light but the authot/narrator placed it at just under the speed of light.

The problem is you take everything as valid as a feat when if fall inline with your argument. And don't bring flash into this we have the perfect example of statements not matching feats with Collapsing Star Roaring Cannon or the fact that Beefcake is listed as no more than 300 meters. And this is all from your god.

Are you serious? Did you literally just say there's no evidence that the same moves can't be used on Garou multiple times due to his adaptation? The hell are you on about... this is flagrantly and explicitly false. Once Garou figures out the moves of his opponent, those same moves can't be used on him again.

No I didn't, try reading. I stated there is no evidence of your claim that Garou can adapt to an attack that he doesn't have feats against. If you're going to argue Garou as some watered down Doomsday you should know users were tired of the argument back then & have no patience for it now.

I get that you're trying to say that arguing Garou being able to adapt to Alita's fighting style is an NLF (since the ability is susceptible to NLF due to having shown no limits) but it's almost as if you haven't grasped the fact Garou has adapted to people more powerful than her like Saitama. Sure, Alita is more skilled than anyone Garou has ever fought, so adapting to her style specifically would definitely be difficult. However, Garou has not only been in a situation where he's faced an aberrant, animal-based fighting style or a martial style that he was unfamiliar with (and learned from it), but in terms of technical skill he is Alita's better. So there is actually no argument against Garou being able to read to Alita's physical movement patterns, other than your denial and refusal to accept the most elementary logic in order to increase the chances of your characters victory.

NotLikeThis. You're really trying to kill me aren't you?

Immediately jumping to no limit fallacy when you haven't even shown Garou adapting to an internal attack or shown Garou's conventional durability to just be too much. Quite simply you're arguing a version of Garou that doesn't exist & because of that any argument against that version is a no limit fallacy. The quicker you come to terms with what Garou can and can't do the quicker you'll understand why Garou losses here.

I'm not even going into the rest of that since I've either addressed it & you're just increasing your word count.

This scenario you've laid out can only be possible if Garou just stood there and let Alita attack him. Between his move reading, adaptation, progressively increasing speed, and the fact that his physical strength is enough to one-shot Alita on contact roughly scaling to Boros, I think it's safe to say that she would only be able to overload his healing factor if he didn't fight back. Why? She will be tagging him at the exact same moment he tags her. The only difference is that her attacks are lethal only if they accumulate and won't immediately one-shot Garou. She has to overtax his regeneration. While on the other hand, physical blows in the city to multi-mountain level tier can one-shot her on contact.

You've already conceded that Alita is faster with and without fan-cals. Then there is the fact that Garou's move reading means little her & he tanks hits until he adapts. This is evident by your own scans.

https://i.imgur.com/icGaXBI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zT7wutl.jpg

Also you're ignoring the fact that Alita doesn't even need to overload his healing factor as a headshot is all it takes. Even then how many lethal attacks can Garou with stand within milliseconds. Two, four, six eight see where I'm going with this?

the fact that his physical strength is enough to one-shot Alita on contact roughly scaling to Boros

My sides they hurt.

Me too. The second I hit you you're dead. But you have to overtax my regeneration over however many milliseconds. Even if I can't regenerate that fast, you're dying before I do.

I would say Alita being a millisecond timer at her very best would need no more than 100 millisecond to put down garou. I've addressed the rest.

Human Garou was weakened when he fought Genos. He one-shotted Genos in the webcomic, and dodged attacks from faster and more skilled people such as Lightspeed Flash. So try again.

This statement resembles nothing of your original point. I pointed out Garou didn't fight fine with Genos, him being weakened wasn't a point that need to be made. He's was weakened for every major fight in the manga. Also Garou didn't one shot Genos in the webcomic so I'm not sure where you got that from.

What sense does this make? Copying an ability is a counter to that ability in and of itself. If you copy a technique, that technique can't be used against you successfully as long as you use it against your opponent as well.

Copying a technique just means you know the movements, it doesn't mean you know the weaknesses or just as proficient in its uses. Even a slight change in speed is enough to throw off skilled mimics. Garou in particular hasn't shown he's equal to Fang at his own technique.

No Caption Provided

.

Jesus Christ, Garou didn't even make an attempt to read Genos' moves. He was focused on only escaping because his body was destroyed after the extremely taxing battle with the A-Class heroes. Garou was literally limping while clutching his wounds and gasping for water the moment a newly improved Genos showed up to fight him:

It's mind blowing how shamelessly you're using such a bad argument. In my OPENER I showed that Garou was in bad condition even BEFORE he started fighting the A-Class heroes. You can't use anti-feats for a character when the character in question was drastically weakened.

So you go from Garou did just fine against to he didn't even attempt to read Genos movements & focused on escaping. That's an odd retelling of events. Maybe statements aren't as reliable as one might think. Besides that my statements aren't some PIS moments or a low showing. Considering those are Garou's only showings. You can't have it both ways Garou can fight genos so he can fight Alita. But you want the fact that he didn't do well in that fight to have no bearing on this fight.

Just look at your response and my reply.

Alita's inorganic physiology won't impede Garou, as it hasn't when he's fought characters like Genos who are not dissimilar in that regard.

Yeah that worked so well in his manga fight against Genos./s

It's not shameless to counter a point you brought up in your favor.

Who are you talking about? Whoever it is, anytime Garou takes repeated hits from someone before adapting to them, he has managed to touch them at least once in exchange (Bang, Saitama, Darkshine, TTM) but if Garou touches Alita she dies.

Forget reading comprehension I'm questioning your ability to read. What part of my statements where hard for you to understand? To put it simple Garou takes hits before adapting.

I've addressed the next two replies so I'll skip them.

I highly doubt Alita would opt to melt a random person she has no knowledge on and in a random encounter.

This is a fight and for Alita that usually means to the death. She's only ever avoided killing the characters she knows are the good guys. Even then she still used plasma.

The evidence you showed was that Alita can attack faster than Garou can regenerate his entire body. You never showed any evidence to say he can't regenerate just his arm at all.

You should have just stopped there since that's the evidence I've shown. Which means you understood but choose to ignore it to make and irvalent point.

If you're injured and you perform a good feat, then the feat is made more impressive due to your injury. In the case of Genos and Bang, Garou was weaker than he was when he performed those good feats, and at that point in the story they were simply stronger than him. I'm using a version of Garou stronger than the one from that arc anyway, so it doesn't even really make sense to use those instances as anti-feats, since he's more powerful in the webcomic as a monster than he was when he fought Genos or Bang.

That would work if we were talking about measurable stats such as speed & strength but I'm discussing skill. Garou not being able to reflect and dodge all of Genos attacks with minimal movement wasn't the fault of his stats but his skill. We know this due to the fact that he reacted to Genos in the first place but was still forced to take hits. Fang a character I would state is considerably slower than Genos but far more skilled landed far more hits on Garou. Once again due to Garou skill not being infallible.

Closing

Garou is undoubtedly more skilled than Alita in terms of collective technique. On top of that he also has formidable adaptive regen. But none of that will stop Alita from winning here. Alita has techniques Garou can't simply outfight or regen. With that in mind his regen doesn't even come into effect until relatively long after Alita has done lethal damage impeding his ability to fight back. And that if she hasn't landed the killing blow to his head in that time.

My opponent had no counter for Alita overcoming regen with pure speed nor could he substantiated any claims of adapting with feats. In terms of offences Garou doesn't have any output worth mentioning or feats worth posting. So to circumvent this my opponent thought it best to use writers statements & scale his character from there. As anyone should know scaling from feats is rather tedious. But scaling from statements is impossible only getting you DBZ in the short & long run.

But that isn't all since I still have salt to pour on these wounds. My opponent conceded to Alita's speed advantage early on & then after bringing it up again with fan cals. Which is a major blow to his entire argument even I didn't need to make those points myself.

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HigherPower

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#32  Edited By HigherPower

@mr_ingenuity: Ok, after reading your post I can say with confidence that I lost this. Coming out of concession to use a stronger version of Garou that was more reliant on scaling was a bad idea, mostly since you had sympathy for my initial concession. (Alita is just vastly superior to Garou in terms of stats and several of her abilities are guaranteed one-shots, it wasn't really fair/debatable).

I just wanted to keep the debate going since I've been meaning to debate you for a long time and I didn't want it to end that way. Now I see it was a mistake since this last post of yours completely decimated me and all my points.

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@mr_ingenuity: Ok, after reading your post I can say with confidence that I lost this. Coming out of concession to use a stronger version of Garou that was more reliant on scaling was a bad idea, mostly since you had sympathy for my initial concession. (Alita is just vastly superior to Garou in terms of stats and several of her abilities are guaranteed one-shots, it wasn't really fair/debatable).

I just wanted to keep the debate going since I've been meaning to debate you for a long time and I didn't want it to end that way. Now I see it was a mistake since this last post of yours completely decimated me and all my points.

You should of let me say that. Lol.

Though it wasn't as one sided as you think(Though there was only one winner imo)