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#1 Edited by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio
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Rules

  • Monster Trio are canon versions
  • Meliodas is canon version
  • Everyone is morals off
  • Everyone is current versions
  • starting distance:30 meters
  • Full Counter works on M3 Energy type attacks
  • Takes place on an empty, indestructible Mountain
  • This is a CaV, don't state your opinion on the match and vote based on who you fought debated better

Does this look good @shirso?

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#2 Edited by jardinain2 (4714 posts) - - Show Bio

hmmm... tag I guess.

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#3 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: Cool. I checked some of Mel's feats, the guy is a beast. This will be quite a tough one I guess.

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#4 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by deactivated-59b71d5620272 (3438 posts) - - Show Bio

......T4V.......

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#6 Posted by jardinain2 (4714 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: I do, occasionally. I like the anime more though.

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#7 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: i'll open, it's only fair considering i probably have the advantage in this matchup.

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#8 Edited by DeathHero61 (16002 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag I guess, I kind of wanted to do this when Meliodas got more feats.

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#9 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by darthjhawk (1655 posts) - - Show Bio

Gomu Gomu Diable 360 Red Hawk Mutton Poundo Hou Gatling GO!!!!

vs

REVENGE COUNTER!

T4V tho this looks fun.

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#11 Edited by God_Vulcan (7042 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag, though it's undecided whether I'll vote

Online
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#12 Edited by NakkLeVaar_1A (36 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin said:
  • Meliodas is canon version
  • Everyone is current versions

Meliodas sets 3 oneshots..... Nah, that's too fat for them.. A common oneshot for all the trio..

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#13 Posted by deactivated-59b71d5620272 (3438 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by NakkLeVaar_1A (36 posts) - - Show Bio

@kamishini: Idk what means CaV, but you saw meliodas from last chapters? saw?!

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#15 Edited by deactivated-59b71d5620272 (3438 posts) - - Show Bio

@nakklevaar_1a: It means Challenge a Viner, it's a debate between two users. So your opinion is unnecessary before the votes.

It's even wrote in the OP, so delete your post.

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#16 Posted by vooon (353 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#17 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

The Dragons Sin of Wrath: Meliodas

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Bio

Meliodas「メリオダス」 is the captain of the Seven Deadly Sinsand the Dragon's Sin of Wrath. He is the owner of the renowned tavern Boar Hat, and the main protagonist of the series. His Sacred Treasure is the Demon SwordLostvayne and his inherent power is Full Counter. He is also the former leader of the Ten Commandments, a former member of Stigma, and the Demon King's oldest son.

Needed Terminology(please read)

Power Level: In Seven Deadly Sins power levels are represented as a total number, the total being combined from three categories: magic, strength, and spirit. The overall power level is not a measure of who definitely wins a battle, it's just a guide to who's more likely to win. For example, someone with a relatively low power level but super hax magic can beat someone with a high power level if they don't have a good way to fight. The spirit category is a measure of composure in battle, willpower, etc. Magic and strength are self-explanatory.

I'll be using these to scale Meliodas from his weaker incarnations. This works because Meliodas power likely increased linearly(or more, so i'm going to be using the bare minimum).

For reference later on, Meliodas current power level is at least 120,000,more likely 150,000+ based on his rather casual defeat of Escanor in a physical and magical battle, who's own power level was 114,00.

Sacred Treasure: In this manga a character will not be using the full amount of power at their disposal unless they are equipped with a good weapon. King explains it pretty well. So someone could have a strength level of, for example, 100, but if they're just swinging a wooden sword rather than a legitimate one then their full 100 strength level really doesn't matter because their blows will only be hitting their opponents with, arbitrarily, 25 strength for each blow. King's explanation accounts for the massive boost in power Meliodas obtains when using his Sacred Treasure rather than a good, if worn out, sword, despite his power level not changing because of getting it back.

This matters because many of Meliodas earlier feats are performed without said Sacred Treasure, meaning they're even more impressive in comparison.

Strength

Honestly, Meliodas far surpasses any of the monster trio in physical abilities, as i will prove here, which will be his key to victory.

Meliodas breaks a large dungeon as the side-effect of his arm-wrestling contest with Ban. Additionaly, this was at the start of the series, back when his power level was 3370, so, at least 40x weaker than current! Also, the Dungeon was reinforced by a powerful spell, making this feat even more impressive.

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The dungeon is actually huge as well, easily visible as a large mass from 8 miles away. Looking at the landscape, it's at least Very Large Hill sized, more probably small Mountain sized.

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Meliodas also lacked his sacred treasure when performing this feat, making it even more impressive!

Another ridiculous feat from Mel is when he split a large Hill in half with just the shockwave of him swinging a twig(massively inferior to his sacred treasure). This was also back when he had a power level of 3370(i.e 40x weaker!)

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He has also caused a huge shockwave, around town sized, simply by lightly swinging his broken sword-hilt(also power level of 3370).

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Last but not least, heres proof he can effectively use this power in combat. Here he beats around Galand(mountain+ durability via taking several of 3370 power level Meliodases strikes without any damage).

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Galan can easily tank 3370 power level Meliodas' hits without a scratch, even while he is using his sacred treasure and demon mark(amps his power).

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That should be enough to prove current Meliodas strength far surpasses any of the Monster Trio's.

Durability

The Monster Trio will be hard pressed to even hurt Meliodas.

Meliodas while he had a power level of 32,250(weaker than current) tanked this blast from Gloxinia, which travelled many kilometres away and dwarfed a mountain with it's explosion.

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He also tanked hits from Diane back when he had a power level of 3,370, who had a strength level of only 10 below Meliodas while in a weaker form. This proves Meliodas can tank hits from people equal to himself in strength, so multi-mountain+ as proven in the above section.

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More proof of Meliodas's ridiculous durability should hardly be required, but just in case, here he tanks hits from someone who could shake the entirety of the massive Dungeon mentioned above with one punch. This was also back when his power level was about 40x weaker.

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This should be enough, as i've proven Meliodas can tank hits from people of the same strength as he(multi-mountain+) and energy attacks on that level as well, while in a weaker form. He will take almost no damage from the M3's attacks.

Speed

Meliodas is faster than the M3, though he can't blitz them.

Here King Arthur confirms he's casually supersonic back when he was 40x weaker, proving Meliodas massively hypersonic speeds.

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Then there's also this, which proves Meliodas speed surpasses lightning back when his power level was 3370.

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Dozen examples in the Gilthunder fight we see lightning flashes from the sky countered by Meliodas easily, every time. One statement, scan 7, stated its a legit lightning bolt that Meliodas catches with his finger in that attack.

That is base speed. Now lets look at Galan....

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Galan is so fast, that he seems to dispear in his movement. All these Massivly Hypersonic Seven Deadly Sins thought Merlin BFR him, when in reality he moved too fast for the Instant spell to nail him. He cleared seven miles in a speed too fast for the already MHS character to see, this proves the Galan's speed >>lightning.

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In this whole fight, Meliodas dodges every super speed attack by Galan, and walks slowly on as if never bothered. Then when he does fight, its faster than Galan, who by scaling already blitz weaker Mel ten time over, can perceive.

This puts Mel at a ridiculous amount beyond lightning speed and adding to that, this Mel's speed is still way below current Mel's!!

The Meliodas above was blitzed by Estarossa here, he moves FTE to Meliodas, moving from several meters away to Meliodas, before he can swing his sword.

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Then, this Estarossa is blitzed by Escanor.

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Escanor is later thoroughly outsped by Mel.

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This puts Mel, so far above lightning(Mach 286), it's not even funny. Based on this, i'd honesty have Mel in the relativistic ranges of speed, far above the M3.

This is enough to prove the M3 are far outmatched in this regard.

Special Abilities

Lostvayne Cloning

Meliodas can clone himself using his sword. The only downside is that the clones only have a fraction of his own strength. With 1 clone it's half his original strength, with 2 a quarter, etc.

He has shown the ability to make up to 4 clones.

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Their purpose in this fight is to fight each of the M3 1V1. Meliodas himself will fight Luffy, while his clones distract Sanji and Zoro. Considering his clones power levels would be at 30,000+ if he used 2, they will still be able to replicate most of the feats i showed above, placing them at Mountain+ DC and Durability and Lightning+ speed, easily enough to hold off Zoro and Sanji long enough for the original to stomp Luffy and join his clones in beating the others.

Revenge Counter

Revenge Counter「リベンジ・カウンター Ribenji Kauntā」: Meliodas turns off his abilities so that he can take damage. After Meliodas has taken enough damage, he charges his blade with power and strikes his enemy with it. This is considered to be Meliodas' ultimate attack and has an average survival rate of 0.2%.

This technique will probably not be necessary, but incase he's on the losing end of the fight he'll be able to purposely take the M3's attacks and counter with far greater than normal power. THE DIFFERENCE IS ASTOUNDING.

For example, Meliodas was inferior to Hendrickson interns of power etc., but his Revenge Counter could defeat the latter in a single blow!

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This technique will almost surely work on the M3 as their attacks shouldn't be enough to kill Meliodas with all that regeneration of his. If he's in a pinch(won't happen, just in case, he can use this attack to destroy the M3's chances at victory.

Conclusion

  • Meliodas is far too strong, durable and fast for the M3.
  • Meliodas has special techniques that will make this battle even easier for him to win
  • Meliodas wins decisively

your turn @shirso, i decided to do this quickly cause i have a lot of time right now.

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#18 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@nakklevaar_1a: It means Challenge a Viner, it's a debate between two users. So your opinion is unnecessary before the votes.

It's even wrote in the OP, so delete your post.

thanks for that.

But yeah, please delete your post nakk

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#19 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: That was quick. I will try and get one up over the weekend.

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#20 Posted by deactivated-59b71d5620272 (3438 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso said:

@hittheassasin: That was quick. I will try and get one up over the weekend.

yeah, that'd be cool. No need to rush though.

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#22 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin:

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Bio

The three strongest members of the Straw Hat Pirate crew, Straw Hat Luffy the captain, Pirate Hunter Roronoa Zoro, the swordsman and Black Foot Sanji, the chef. These three have so inhumane strength (even by One Piece's already ridiculous standards!) that the rest of the crew have dubbed them the "Monster Trio".

The opener's purpose will mostly be for comparing Mel's physicals to the Trio's. Detailed strategies will follow subsequently.

Strength

Honestly, Meliodas far surpasses any of the monster trio in physical abilities, as i will prove here, which will be his key to victory.

Interesting, since One Piece is generally considered to be the physically strongest verse amongst the HST, so this is quite a bold claim, but let's see a few of Mel's feats.

Meliodas breaks a large dungeon as the side-effect of his arm-wrestling contest with Ban. Additionaly, this was at the start of the series, back when his power level was 3370, so, at least 40x weaker than current! Also, the Dungeon was reinforced by a powerful spell, making this feat even more impressive.

This is one of his earliest feats, and done jointly with Ban. Still pretty cool.

The dungeon is actually huge as well, easily visible as a large mass from 8 miles away. Looking at the landscape, it's at least Very Large Hill sized, more probably small Mountain sized.

Here I disagree with you. For one, the dungeon is constructed on much higher ground than Dalmary town, which gives it better visibility.

Secondly, the Dungeon itself is hardly as big as you think. I can take that its bigger than average skyscrapers, maybe as big as a small city block if we are being generous, but mountain sized is pushing it a lot.

For example, here's a scan of a few Weird Fang Knights talking in front of the dungeon, which gives a better sense of scale (bottom right panel).

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As you can see, its really not much larger than your average skyscraper to be honest.

In response to this, I'd say that all 3 of the trio have been one shotting Sea Kings, which are building sized monsters right from the start of the series.

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Some assorted scans of M3 members one shotting Sea Kings.

A little further, and we get a feat from Luffy that absolutely blows the Baste Dungeon busting one out of the water.

Alabasta saga Luffy punches Crocodile through several meters of solid bedrock and crumbles a city block in the process.

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Keep in mind this was a pre skip, pre gears Luffy who was heavily injured, bleeding, poisoned and exhausted at that point. Also his attack had to first overcome Crocodile's sand armor, making this feat even more impressive.

Another ridiculous feat from Mel is when he split a large Hill in half with just the shockwave of him swinging a twig(massively inferior to his sacred treasure). This was also back when he had a power level of 3370(i.e 40x weaker!)

While doing that with a twig is indeed impressive, objectively speaking, he showed about small hill level cutting power in that scan. My own swordsman, Zoro has cutting feats pre skip that are far superior.

Easily cuts through the cross section of an absolutely ginormous beanstalk.

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Just notice how Zoro is a speck compared to the stalk. This incidentally also stacks up as a nice speed feat, as we see Zoro outrunning Enel's lightning bolts.

One of his best feats pre skip, one of his joint attacks with Luffy manages to blast a hole through a massive tsunami wave large enough for a train to pass through.

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Again keep in mind that the combined heavy artillery fire of the Franky family and Galley-La company were basically doing nothing to the wave.

Now I know you are going to say that that was a weaker Mel without his sacred treasure, but then again even I am going purely by pre skip feats right now.

He has also caused a huge shockwave, around town sized, simply by lightly swinging his broken sword-hilt(also power level of 3370).

Okay, now you are highballing Mel's feats a little.

First of all, that feat is unquantifiable as hell, because not only was that fodder knight not even KO'd by the attack, but there's no way to gauge how large the blast even was. And that is Meliodas from the very first chapter. As powerful as the guy surely is, I seriously doubt he was a town buster at this early stage.

Secondly, creating that shockwave has nothing to do with Mel's own physical strength, because he was using his Full Counter ability which reflects back an attack amplified many many times. Its even explicitly mentioned by his opponent just a few pages back.

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Its a good feat of his hax, but has little to do with his raw strength actually.

Last but not least, heres proof he can effectively use this power in combat. Here he beats around Galand(mountain+ durability via taking several of 3370 power level Meliodases strikes without any damage).

3370 power level Mel has no feats putting him remotely at mountain lvl, he is city block lvl at best going by his joint feat with Ban, but no more. Alabasta saga M3 surpasses every strength feat you have shown for Mel thus far, with Luffy in particular being considerably ahead owing to the conditions under which he performed his own block busting feat (he was tired, mortally wounded and poisoned).

Before closing this section, here's a feat for Sanji, traditionally considered the weakest among the M3, which proves beyond doubt that even the pre skip M3, while hardly operating at their best are touching city lvl attack potency.

In the Thriller Bark arc, Sanji deflects Oars' Bazooka with a single kick.

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Some context, Oars is a giant who had Luffy's exact powers, stats and skills courtsey of having Luffy's shadow (this is not speculation or statements, that's literally the entire plot of the arc).

For reference, here's how Oars is wrt normal humans.

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Now Luffy was already city block lvl + about 3 arcs prior to this, and could fight at massively hypersonic speeds. Now put that speed and strength in a giant body dwarfing even Diane, and Sanji deflecting Oars attack becomes easily a lot more impressive than whatever you have shown for Mel thus far.

Speed

A lot of scaling in this section I see.

Here King Arthur confirms he's casually supersonic back when he was 40x weaker, proving Meliodas massively hypersonic speeds.

Cool, I guess. In any case, Luffy has been tagging massively FTE opponents, e.g: like Bellamy, even before he developed Gears.

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Supersonic speeds are low tier in One Piece, honestly.

back when he was 40x weaker, proving Meliodas massively hypersonic speeds.

I have a question here, does the power levels also scale to speed, because the only categories you mentioned were magic, strength and spirit (your power level link is broken bte).

Dozen examples in the Gilthunder fight we see lightning flashes from the sky countered by Meliodas easily, every time. One statement, scan 7, stated its a legit lightning bolt that Meliodas catches with his finger in that attack.

Any proof that Gilthunder's attacks are indeed as fast as natural lightning?

Not that it matters, because the M3 have very similar feats in the Skypiea arc, when they fought Enel, a guy literally made of lightning.

For example, here Luffy catches a point blank attack from Enel. According to Enel, the attack was essentially a lightning based attack given physical form (scan 1).

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That's pretty similar to Mel catching Gilthunder's attack.

I already showed Zoro outrunning thunder bolts from the sky.

This is no outlier, because 2 arcs later, during Enies Lobby, we see Kalifa, the weakest member of CP9, dodge lightning from Nami's clima tact. Nami's lighting is as close to natural lightning as you will get in most series, because it is created from actual thunder clouds.

And Kalifa is fodder to the likes of Jabra, Kaku or Rob Lucci (the 3 strongest members of CP9), whom the M3 fought. So if we consider Mel to be a lightning timer based on his feats against Gilt, then so are the M3 and way early in the series.

Galan is so fast, that he seems to dispear in his movement. All these Massivly Hypersonic Seven Deadly Sins thought Merlin BFR him, when in reality he moved too fast for the Instant spell to nail him. He cleared seven miles in a speed too fast for the already MHS character to see, this proves the Galan's speed >>lightning.

This is mostly a travel speed feat tbh. And even here, Luffy has something which can compete.

Luffy, in base form, outruns a large liquid explosion where the explosives were sticking to his body.

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Outrunning a point blank explosion that massive is as good as Galan's feat imo.

In this whole fight, Meliodas dodges every super speed attack by Galan, and walks slowly on as if never bothered. Then when he does fight, its faster than Galan, who by scaling already blitz weaker Mel ten time over, can perceive.

You have shown only 1 speed feat for Galan, and that is related to travel, not combat speed, so this reasoning is faulty.

This puts Mel, so far above lightning(Mach 286), it's not even funny. Based on this, i'd honesty have Mel in the relativistic ranges of speed, far above the M3.

This is enough to prove the M3 are far outmatched in this regard.

Okay, that's fairly big talk for someone who has only 2 speed feats shown thus far that do not depend on scaling. You are basing your entire argument on the basis that Gilthunder's attacks are as fast as natural lightning, and on the faulty logic of equating Galan's travel speed as combat speed.

By that logic, the M3 should be lightning timers as well by the end of the Skypiea arc (since they reacted to Enel's attacks), and so should be more or less even speed wise with Mel after all the powerups and time skip they went through.

I, on the other hand, have presented only concrete quantifiable feats thus far, all of which are, barring faulty scaling, as good as anything Mel has shown.

But don't worry, I have something up my sleeve which would substantially balance the scales. Meet...

Gear 4

Luffy's first real power up after the time-skip, he first used it against the Warlord Donquixote Doflamingo. With some creative use of his Gomu-Gomu powers combined with Haki, it exponentially boosts Luffy's stats, giving him the speed of Gear 2 and the strength of Gear 3, allows to "fly" (though its more like he glides) and boosts Luffy's resistance to any form of cutting attacks considerably.

Here's a sample of Gear 4's strength.

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As you can see, Gear 4's King Kong gun folds the entire city of Dressrosa in half just by the impact of Doflamingo colliding. This is again a heavily exhausted, out of haki Luffy, whose punch first had to overcome Doflamingo's God's Thread and Spider's Web, Doffy's strongest offensive and defensive techniques respectively.

So Gear 4 is easily Multi City level+ to possibly approaching island lvl in striking power. Even Mel would be seriously messed up if Luffy can land a KKG.

And yeah, most of Luffy's body is coated in haki whilst still retaining its rubbery nature in Gear 4. This gives Luffy tremendous durability against both blunt force as well as cutting and piercing attacks.

Luffy Gear 4 vs Doflamingo

After going Gear 4 Luffy outright no sells Doflamingo's Haki infused kick (one of Doflamingo's normal kicks cut through several towers just by air pressure) and his strings (which can cut through meteorites like wet tissue paper), so Luffy's so called ":vulnerability" to piercing attacks is virtually non-existent in Gear 4.

As for speed, Luffy in this form was effortlessly blitzing Doflamingo all over the place, when Gear 2 Luffy (massively hypersonic who outran a liquid explosion) and Trafalgar Law (who sliced apart a point blank meteorite) could barely keep up in speed with Doflamingo.

One of G4's most impressive feats, it was able to blind side and blitz Doflamingo from over a city away.

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Keep in mind Doflamingo can slice apart meteorites at point blank range and was too fast for even massively hypersonic extreme hax characters like Trafalgar Law.

Knowing how fast Doffy is, I would say G4 is certainly more than fast enough to keep up with Mel, with the added advantage of flight and insane range.

Mel's durability vs M3's DC

Meliodas while he had a power level of 32,250(weaker than current) tanked this blast from Gloxinia, which travelled many kilometres away and dwarfed a mountain with it's explosion.

Can I see a scan showing exactly how much damage this attack did? I can see it bowing off the tops of a few mountains but the M3 are well above mountain lvl at this point, and were approaching it even pre skip I'd say.

This is also energy durability while the M3 relies exclusively on physicals.

He also tanked hits from Diane back when he had a power level of 3,370, who had a strength level of only 10 below Meliodas while in a weaker form. This proves Meliodas can tank hits from people equal to himself in strength, so multi-mountain+ as proven in the above section.

I can't really accept without more proof that beginning of series Meliodas was a legit mountain buster. In terms of feats, even Alabasta saga Luffy is better.

More proof of Meliodas's ridiculous durability should hardly be required, but just in case, here he tanks hits from someone who could shake the entirety of the massive Dungeon mentioned above with one punch. This was also back when his power level was about 40x weaker.

Baste Dungeon is nowhere as large as a mountain, nor was that guy strong enough to destroy the dungeon. This is a multi building lvl durability feat at best.

Also, you have yet to show any cutting or heat resistance feats for Mel, which is what Zoro and Sanji will be coming at him with. From what I have seen, Mel isn't particularly resistant to cutting damage.

M3's durability vs Mel's DC

So far from feats shown, Mel seems to have about city block lvl blunt force striking and small hill level cutting potency.

First of all, Luffy is completely immune to any kinds of blunt and concussive force, and in G4 has haki capable of no selling Doffy's strings (Doffy's strings are incredibly tough and sharp, his bird cage could not be cut by the likes of Zoro and Fujitora and would have cleaved through Dressrosa in time).

As for Zoro and Sanji, they have incredible damage soak and pain tolerance.

E.g: Both of them tanked Kuma's Ursus Shock, an island wide explosion.

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Zoro's pain tolerance in particular is just ridiculous.

I think everyone knows of this feat by now, at the climax of Thriller Bark, Zoro takes all the pain and damage sustained by Luffy during his fights, in addition to all the damage that Zoro had himself received throughout the arc, and survives.

In a nutshell, even though Zoro and Sanji would definitely take some damage from Mel's attacks, their insane pain tolerance would keep them in the fight long enough to finish Mel off.

Luffy, on the other hand, can just no sell most of Mel's attacks on account of his rubbery nature, and mitigate any cutting attacks with Armament Haki.

Another asset that would help the M3 balance out speed is...

Observation Haki

This is basically very high level precognition.

Pre skip, this allowed Luffy to avoid Mihawk's potentially fatal attack Note that his was a Luffy entirely untrained in the use of Haki.

Post skip it has allowed Luffy to casually dodge lasers from a Pacifista (he even calls them slow), dodge a bullet after it has been fired at point blank range, and casually dance through Hody's barrage of water bullets(each of these bullets can level city blocks and cross an island in seconds).

Here's another good showing of Observation Haki.

Hakuba, a demon which awakens when its host Cavendish falls asleep,is ridiculously fast and could blitz and clear the entire D-Block (which all consisted of New World veterans) in seconds.

Only Rebecca, who is a relatively weak Haki user compared to the top tiers like M3, could react to Hakuba and outlast him.

Here's the full fight.

In summary, Observation Haki further evens out whatever little speed advantage Mel might possibly have.

Countering your strategy

Cloning

Considering his clones power levels would be at 30,000+ if he used 2, they will still be able to replicate most of the feats i showed above, placing them at Mountain+ DC and Durability and Lightning+ speed, easily enough to hold off Zoro and Sanji long enough for the original to stomp Luffy and join his clones in beating the others.

I have yet to see a single scan of even true Mel legit busting a mountain, and your entire speed argument depends on scaling off Gilthunder.

That doesn't matter though, as I have shown, the pre skip M3 were at city/mountain lvl attack potency, and were already lightning timers as far back as Skypiea, the post skip M3 is on a whole different level. So if Mel's clones only have mountain lvl durability, they are gonna get one shotted real fast.

Meliodas himself will fight Luffy, while his clones distract Sanji and Zoro.

I doubt Mel's clones would last long against Zoro and Sanji, but this issue can be also be easily circumvented if Luffy goes G4 from the onset and just blitzes and one shots the 2 clones (G4 can quite easily do this).

Strategy

For taking Mel down, it makes sense for Luffy to go G4 right from the start. It does have a limited window, but even an exhausted Luffy who had already used up a lot of his haki could maintain G4 and fight evenly against Doflamingo's Awakening for about half an hour, so I think it would be enough for the purpose of this fight.

Besides Luffy has already started to show more control over G4. He fought Cracker 12 hours straight in G4 and against very powerful opponents like Big Mom, it has been his go to move.

Once he goes G4, he easily blitzes and one shots Mel's clones, and from there, the M3 gang up on the true Mel. A tentative plan of action can be G4 Luffy and Sanji grapples and holds him down, while Zoro drives a sword through his heart or chops his head off.

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#23 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso said:

@hittheassasin: Opener's up.

pretty nice, but cut the lowballing....

City Block durability and Hill level potency....really...

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#25 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin:

City Block durability and Hill level potency....really...

I ain't saying Mel is at that level because I know he has much better feats. I am just giving my 2 cents on what has been shown thus far, most of which btw are from beginning of series Mel.

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#26 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Your posts pretty long, but ill have a counter up by the weekend for sure, possible earlier.

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#27 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Edited by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso:

Counter 1: Physicals and Strategies

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Strength

Interesting, since One Piece is generally considered to be the physically strongest verse amongst the HST, so this is quite a bold claim, but let's see a few of Mel's feats.

Meh, Naruto's god tiers are better, but otherwise, i'd tend to agree.

This is one of his earliest feats, and done jointly with Ban. Still pretty cool.

That's the point. As already stated, power level wise Mel increased at least 30-40x since then, the scaling is what makes this feat impressive.

As for Ban, that doesn't really matter considering Ban is <<<<Meliodas in strength, even as of this point.

Meliodas overpowers Ban despite the fact that a good portion of his strength had been stolen by Ban(read: a depowered Meliodas > an amped Ban in strength)

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Here I disagree with you. For one, the dungeon is constructed on much higher ground than Dalmary town, which gives it better visibility.

Fair enough, but, if you look in the scan, it's still significantly taller than the Hills surrounding it, essentially dwarfing them.

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Secondly, the Dungeon itself is hardly as big as you think. I can take that its bigger than average skyscrapers, maybe as big as a small city block if we are being generous, but mountain sized is pushing it a lot.

Meh, it seems to vary in size, as happens often with structures in fiction, the author obviously can't draw them completely to scale. In one scan it dwarfs Hills, including the one that's in the back of your scan behind Golgius, in others it isn't that big.

With high-end feats it's small Mountain sized.

With low-end it's skyscraper.

For example, here's a scan of a few Weird Fang Knights talking in front of the dungeon, which gives a better sense of scale (bottom right panel).

Well, their a considerable amount away from the Dungeon and at a certain distance even Mountains look small.

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As you can see, its really not much larger than your average skyscraper to be honest.

As said above this scan depicts it smaller than some others, honestly, it's just lack of consistency in artworks so i'd say it's best to meet at the mid way point and say it's large City Block size.

Besides, that's not even what makes the feat so impressive. It's impressive because the destruction was caused by the mere side-effect of an arm wrestling contest(it's not like it was there intention or goal to destroy the Dungeon, yet they did so anyway, thus the effect of an actual punch meant to destroy would be much, much higher), despite the fact that an extremely powerful spell that has durability way above town level(to the point where 10 town level beings couldn't destroy it) was reinforcing it, and they still destroyed it effortlessly. When you take into account the scaling to current versions this easily puts Meliodas at Mountain+ level.

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In response to this, I'd say that all 3 of the trio have been one shotting Sea Kings, which are building sized monsters right from the start of the series.

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Those are at best small building size, Luffy and co. are clearly visible next to them, besides, it not like Luffy vaporised or actually fully destroyed there bodies so this is not actually a quantifiable DC/Power feat.

A little further, and we get a feat from Luffy that absolutely blows the Baste Dungeon busting one out of the water.

Alabasta saga Luffy punches Crocodile through several meters of solid bedrock and crumbles a city block in the process.

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It doesn't "absolutely blow it out of the water", it's solidly inferior. First off, Luffy took a lot of full power punches to do this, looking at the picture and the speeds Luffy operates at, even at this stage in the show, it's solidly 50 hits that did this damage, and looking at how many Buildings that was and the size of them, it's still only Small City Block level. This means you showed a feat that took took Luffy 50+ full power punches and was still only small City Block level... This doesn't compare to Meliodas's feat at all....

Keep in mind this was a pre skip, pre gears Luffy who was heavily injured, bleeding, poisoned and exhausted at that point. Also his attack had to first overcome Crocodile's sand armor, making this feat even more impressive.

Yeah, but it sure seems as if Luffy was delivering attacks at his full power considering the amount of damage they do to Crocodile, how he's screaming etc.

This scan does not give the indication that Luffy was weakened, like, at all.

While doing that with a twig is indeed impressive, objectively speaking, he showed about small hill level cutting power in that scan. My own swordsman, Zoro has cutting feats pre skip that are far superior.

Lol at this. Yes, it's a hill level cutting feat but there are 3 huge things your leaving out here.

1) This was done with a twig, which is << a Sword, which in turn is << Mel's sacred treasure.

Just for comparison, Meliodas with a basic sword couldldn't even break Albion's skin...

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But, with his Sacred Treasure he can casually cut said Monsters arm into pieces, with ease no less.

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Going from being unable to break the skin to cutting right through it's arm is undoubtedly a massive increase(10x, minimum), then considering the difference between a regular ass twig and a sharp, well crafted sword, the difference is ridiculous(30x, once again, bare minimum).

2)This was just the shockwave of his swing, it's not like he actually hit it, it was the air pressure of his swing with a twig that did this, a huge, huge difference.

3) This Meliodas is incredibly weaker than current.

Considering the first 2 points this honestly places PL:3370 Meliodas at Mountain+ level, bare minimum and he increases massively.

Easily cuts through the cross section of an absolutely ginormous beanstalk.

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Just notice how Zoro is a speck compared to the stalk. This incidentally also stacks up as a nice speed feat, as we see Zoro outrunning Enel's lightning bolts.

You can't be serious....

Comparing Zoro's size to the piece he cut makes it quite obvious the piece he cut is small building level at best, far smaller than the hill Meliodas split, not even considering Meliodas did it with the shockwave while using a twig.

One of his best feats pre skip, one of his joint attacks with Luffy manages to blast a hole through a massive tsunami wave large enough for a train to pass through.

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Entirely unimpressive, blasting a Skyscraper size hole in a wave of water with 2 people no less.... you'd be hard pressed to prove that's Skyscraper level, yet alone on the level Mel operates on.

You'll have to do better than showing me these Building-

Again keep in mind that the combined heavy artillery fire of the Franky family and Galley-La company were basically doing nothing to the wave.

That just means they're artillery is shit, unless you're suggesting the water is somehow more durable....lol

Now I know you are going to say that that was a weaker Mel without his sacred treasure, but then again even I am going purely by pre skip feats right now.

Yeah no, that doesn't equate at all considering i too am only using early series Meliodas feats.

Okay, now you are highballing Mel's feats a little.

Not really.

First of all, that feat is unquantifiable as hell, because not only was that fodder knight not even KO'd by the attack, but there's no way to gauge how large the blast even was. And that is Meliodas from the very first chapter. As powerful as the guy surely is, I seriously doubt he was a town buster at this early stage.

Well, if you compare the size of the blast to the nearby Hill i was clearly very large, though Town level is a bit of an exaggeration.

Secondly, creating that shockwave has nothing to do with Mel's own physical strength, because he was using his Full Counter ability which reflects back an attack amplified many many times. Its even explicitly mentioned by his opponent just a few pages back.

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Its a good feat of his hax, but has little to do with his raw strength actually.

He was using full counter there yeah, but there's no proof the attack later on was full counter. Anyway, i'll just concede this one because it's hardly relevant anyway, Meliodas has way better feats anyway.

3370 power level Mel has no feats putting him remotely at mountain lvl, he is city block lvl at best going by his joint feat with Ban, but no more. Alabasta saga M3 surpasses every strength feat you have shown for Mel thus far, with Luffy in particular being considerably ahead owing to the conditions under which he performed his own block busting feat (he was tired, mortally wounded and poisoned).

Yeah, no. That Mel could already bust a hill with the mere shockwave of a twig, which is <<<< his sacred treasure, and bust a city block sized structure that was reinforced with a town++ level spell casually and without trying. Also, he clearly performs at Mountain level with Lostvayne looking at how he can casually cut Albion's arm into slices.

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From right to left.

For reference, Albion was able to tank City Block+ level Meliodas attacks without them even breaking his skin.

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Adding that to Albion's sheer size shown in these scans,

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proves Meliodas is definitely Mountain+ level.

Galan blocked an attack from him in his demon form, who's power level was actually 4400 without a scratch. This clearly puts Galan's durability at Mountain+ - Multi-Mountain level. Meliodas later curb stomps and cuts him up casually without his demon power and Meliodas got significantly stronger later.

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Before closing this section, here's a feat for Sanji, traditionally considered the weakest among the M3, which proves beyond doubt that even the pre skip M3, while hardly operating at their best are touching city lvl attack potency.

I'd argue pre=skip M3 are town level at best, you'll have to use post-skip feats to hold up here.

In the Thriller Bark arc, Sanji deflects Oars' Bazooka with a single kick.

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Some context, Oars is a giant who had Luffy's exact powers, stats and skills courtsey of having Luffy's shadow (this is not speculation or statements, that's literally the entire plot of the arc).

Ok, so Sanji deflects a casual Bazooka from Oars using his full power and that's impressive.....how exactly?

The best (high end) feats you've shown thus far have Luffy at City Block level with 50+ punches so this means Sanji is sub-City Block level.....

Now, before you say Gears upgrade, where was it stated that Oars had Luffy's gear powers? Those are techniques that can only be performed using Luffy's body and have a special "look" that can be clearly identified, so the chances are Oars doesn't possess Luffy's gear powers, thus putting him at City Block level(Luffys base improved since the crocodile incident and Oars is Base Luffy+ his own powers, so he should be City Block level in one punch). This means, Sanji is now City Block level, hurray, it still doesn't remotely compare to even 3370 Meliodas.

For reference, here's how Oars is wrt normal humans.

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Now Luffy was already city block lvl + about 3 arcs prior to this, and could fight at massively hypersonic speeds. Now put that speed and strength in a giant body dwarfing even Diane, and Sanji deflecting Oars attack becomes easily a lot more impressive than whatever you have shown for Mel thus far.

Yeah, no. Luffy was City Block level only with 50+ punches and full power, granted he improved since then and adding Oars strength to Luffy's leads to to believe he is in fact City Block+ level, meaning Sanji is also at that level.

However, that doesn't even compare to Mel who showcases this level of power casually and as a side effect of his attacks etc.

Now, for some new feats actually showing Mel's powers!

Meliodas in his most powerful mode, Assault form otherwise known as 10 Commandments Era Meliodas, was capable of one-shotting Escanor while holding back no less.

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This is the same Escanor(probably more powerful actually) that tanked Galans strike literally without any damage.

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The mere aftershock(most of the force was absorbed by Escanors body) was Mountain sized and cut the tops of of Large Hills many miles away and was felt by Meliodas and Merlin(also many miles away). Additionally, scaling from 3370 Mel(already atleast City Level) also puts Galan at Mountain level considering he casually overpowered said Meliodas.

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Honestly, Meliodas is multi-mountain level in attack potency and can destroy a M3 in a few blows.

Speed

A lot of scaling in this section I see.

Yeah, Mel isn't exactly swimming in speed feats.

Cool, I guess. In any case, Luffy has been tagging massively FTE opponents, e.g: like Bellamy, even before he developed Gears.

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My point was mainly to prove that even BOS Mel is easily supersonic and current should thus be on par with even Gear 4 Luffy.

Supersonic speeds are low tier in One Piece, honestly.

Same with NNT honestly.

I have a question here, does the power levels also scale to speed, because the only categories you mentioned were magic, strength and spirit (your power level link is broken bte).

It does looking as how powerlevel 4400 Meliodas was speed blitzed by Galan but power level 32,250 Meliodas speed blitzed him back.

Any proof that Gilthunder's attacks are indeed as fast as natural lightning?

Being stated as a literal lightning bolt and the fact that only Meliodas was able to react to them at that point in time.

Not that it matters, because the M3 have very similar feats in the Skypiea arc, when they fought Enel, a guy literally made of lightning.

Enels lightning speed is dubious at best looking as how Nami was able to react to him and fodder where able to react to them on numerous occasions, even in one of your scans actually.

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Enel isn't lightning speed, just as little as Kizaru is LS.

For example, here Luffy catches a point blank attack from Enel. According to Enel, the attack was essentially a lightning based attack given physical form (scan 1).

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Well, Enel is wrong, looking at how Nami and Fodder where able to react to him moving and because, while his lightning bolts may be lightning speed, his physical attacks certainly aren't, just like with Kizaru essentially.

That's pretty similar to Mel catching Gilthunder's attack.

Except Enel physical attacks aren't lightning speed looking as to how Devil Fruits users physical speed have been shown as =/= to their elements speed, like Kizaru. Unless you can specifically prove that attack was lightning speed, it probably wasn't.

I already showed Zoro outrunning thunder bolts from the sky.

Yeah, that isn't a combat worthy speed feat due to several reasons.

1) He's running away from lightning bolts that are coming from way up in the clouds meaning it takes a lot longer for them to reach the ground.

2) We don't know the interval they were fired at.

3) He could have had a head start.

4) It's a travel speed feat anyway.

This is no outlier, because 2 arcs later, during Enies Lobby, we see Kalifa, the weakest member of CP9, dodge lightning from Nami's clima tact. Nami's lighting is as close to natural lightning as you will get in most series, because it is created from actual thunder clouds.

Could i have the scans?

I do believe you, but just for the record.

And Kalifa is fodder to the likes of Jabra, Kaku or Rob Lucci (the 3 strongest members of CP9), whom the M3 fought. So if we consider Mel to be a lightning timer based on his feats against Gilt, then so are the M3 and way early in the series.

We'll see.

This is mostly a travel speed feat tbh. And even here, Luffy has something which can compete.

Meh, i disagree. Galan was able to react and move away from Merlins nigh-instantaneous spell before Meliodas and the other sins could even see or react, thats a reaction/speed feat all right.

Luffy, in base form, outruns a large liquid explosion where the explosives were sticking to his body.

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Outrunning a point blank explosion that massive is as good as Galan's feat imo.

This is a really good feat, however i disagree that it's better than Galans because Galan did it faster than 7 lightning timers could react.

You have shown only 1 speed feat for Galan, and that is related to travel, not combat speed, so this reasoning is faulty.

The actual point of that feat was to show that Galan could react, then get ready and jump, all before the 7 sins could react.

Okay, that's fairly big talk for someone who has only 2 speed feats shown thus far that do not depend on scaling. You are basing your entire argument on the basis that Gilthunder's attacks are as fast as natural lightning, and on the faulty logic of equating Galan's travel speed as combat speed.

Yeah, because everything suggests Gilthunders attacks are that fast. No one has ever dodged them that shouldn't have a realistic chance of doing so and they have been stated as literal lightning bolts.

By that logic, the M3 should be lightning timers as well by the end of the Skypiea arc (since they reacted to Enel's attacks), and so should be more or less even speed wise with Mel after all the powerups and time skip they went through.

Nope, because Enel physical attacks aren't actually lightning speed. They should be lightning timers by Enies Lobby though.

I, on the other hand, have presented only concrete quantifiable feats thus far, all of which are, barring faulty scaling, as good as anything Mel has shown.

Interns of speed you're probably right, there isn't much to be discussed here. IMO Mel is about as fast as G4 Luffy and thus won't be doing any significant outspeeding but won't be blitzed either, so i'd suggest we rather focus on the other areas of the fight as i feel speed doesn't need to be discussed as it's not particularly relevant here.

But don't worry, I have something up my sleeve which would substantially balance the scales. Meet...

Ok.

Gear 4

Luffy's first real power up after the time-skip, he first used it against the Warlord Donquixote Doflamingo. With some creative use of his Gomu-Gomu powers combined with Haki, it exponentially boosts Luffy's stats, giving him the speed of Gear 2 and the strength of Gear 3, allows to "fly" (though its more like he glides) and boosts Luffy's resistance to any form of cutting attacks considerably.

Yeah, G4 is cool.

Here's a sample of Gear 4's strength.

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As you can see, Gear 4's King Kong gun folds the entire city of Dressrosa in half just by the impact of Doflamingo colliding.

What were you smoking when you said this? I'm sorry but look at your scan.... Those are at best a few City Blocks, nowhere near the entirety of Dressrosa goddamnit. It's an impressive feat but don't go overhyping it to much ok.

This is again a heavily exhausted, out of haki Luffy, whose punch first had to overcome Doflamingo's God's Thread and Spider's Web, Doffy's strongest offensive and defensive techniques respectively.

I don't think he fact that he was exhausted matters much in a series like One Piece. He was using his most powerful attack and clearly at full power no less.

Due to the circumstances at hand i'll agree to the fact that this is in fact a City+ level feat despite the destruction only being multi-city block level, but no more.

So Gear 4 is easily Multi City level+ to possibly approaching island lvl in striking power. Even Mel would be seriously messed up if Luffy can land a KKG.

Wait, wut?

He destroyed a few City Blocks and considering the circumstances it does scale to City+, possibly even Mountain level but there's just no way a City Block level suddenly scales to Island level, the difference is beyond massive.

I agree that a KKG can certainly hurt Meliodas, but that guys pain tolerance is insane. He tanks all of these Mountain+ level attacks and survives, still conscious.

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Once again, from right to left.

And yeah, most of Luffy's body is coated in haki whilst still retaining its rubbery nature in Gear 4. This gives Luffy tremendous durability against both blunt force as well as cutting and piercing attacks.

I disagree. He's still weak to powerful enough cutting attacks as showcased in his fight against Commander Cracker.

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Meliodas Mountan+ level attacks would most certainly ruin him.

Luffy Gear 4 vs Doflamingo

After going Gear 4 Luffy outright no sells Doflamingo's Haki infused kick (one of Doflamingo's normal kicks cut through several towers just by air pressure) and his strings (which can cut through meteorites like wet tissue paper), so Luffy's so called ":vulnerability" to piercing attacks is virtually non-existent in Gear 4.

Impressive.

As for speed, Luffy in this form was effortlessly blitzing Doflamingo all over the place, when Gear 2 Luffy (massively hypersonic who outran a liquid explosion) and Trafalgar Law (who sliced apart a point blank meteorite) could barely keep up in speed with Doflamingo.

One of G4's most impressive feats, it was able to blind side and blitz Doflamingo from over a city away.

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Keep in mind Doflamingo can slice apart meteorites at point blank range and was too fast for even massively hypersonic extreme hax characters like Trafalgar Law.

Knowing how fast Doffy is, I would say G4 is certainly more than fast enough to keep up with Mel, with the added advantage of flight and insane range.

Extremely impressive, and i agreee that G4 would most certainly be able to keep up with Mel,, which is why i suggest dropping the speed argument in favour of the more important, more relevant ones.

M3's DC vs Meliodas Durability

Can I see a scan showing exactly how much damage this attack did? I can see it bowing off the tops of a few mountains but the M3 are well above mountain lvl at this point, and were approaching it even pre skip I'd say.

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Keep in mind the blast is several miles further than that Mountain and the shockwave destroyed the Mountain. Just off of sheer size that blast is multi-mountain level and its clearly powerful enough to vape stone etc., so...

Multi-Mountain level and Meliodas tanked it.

This is also energy durability while the M3 relies exclusively on physicals.

No difference, both are blunt energy.

I can't really accept without more proof that beginning of series Meliodas was a legit mountain buster. In terms of feats, even Alabasta saga Luffy is better.

Wrong! I proved above why Meliodas is Mountain level even at that point. To summarize

1) Easily cutting a large Hill with the shockwave of a twig!

2)Cutting Mountain+ size Albion who's skin had City Block++ durability into pieces.

3) Casually breaking Baste Dungeon which was reinforced by a Town++ level spell as a side effect.

Also, you're missing the point. Diane's strength at that point was only very minimally < Meliodas' own and yet he could tank her attack which proves he can tank attacks at his own power level, which are Multi-Mountain and far superior to the M3.

Baste Dungeon is nowhere as large as a mountain, nor was that guy strong enough to destroy the dungeon. This is a multi building lvl durability feat at best.

Meh, fair enough, Mel has better anyway.

Also, you have yet to show any cutting or heat resistance feats for Mel, which is what Zoro and Sanji will be coming at him with. From what I have seen, Mel isn't particularly resistant to cutting damage.

This is silly...

Split Durability isn't a thing unless specifically stated so.(f.x Luffy without Gear 4)

You'll have to prove Meliodas has split durability to make this argument work.

Using this split durability logic is how it came to "neck feats for ....., else ..... just cuts his neck" for a while.

Now for some other durability feats for Meliodas. He tanks all these attacks from the ten commandments.

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right to left again.

Now, as for how impressive this is, Fraudrins attack(the beam from the sword) has been confirmed > a meteor because it broke a barrier that could tank even a Meteor.(both Fraudrin and his son confirm this and Hendrickson doesn't deny it either).

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Now comes the shocker: out of all the commandments present there, Fraudrin is officially the weakest, his power level is 31,000. (Out of the others who attack there, Derriere is 53,000, Monspiet is 50,000 and Gloxinia is 47,000).

This means all the commandments present are >> Meteors and Mountains and Meliodas tanked there attacks.

Mel's DC vs M3's Duability

So far from feats shown, Mel seems to have about city block lvl blunt force striking and small hill level cutting potency.

Boi...... Even by the feats i showed in my opener that Mel scales to atleast City level when you look at the fact that he casually destroyed a City Block sized structure that was reinforced by a Town++ level spell as a side-effect of an arm wrestle.

First of all, Luffy is completely immune to any kinds of blunt and concussive force, and in G4 has haki capable of no selling Doffy's strings (Doffy's strings are incredibly tough and sharp, his bird cage could not be cut by the likes of Zoro and Fujitora and would have cleaved through Dressrosa in time).

Yep, Luffy is immune to physical force which means it's good that Mel relies exclusively on cutting attacks, Luffys weakness.

As for Zoro and Sanji, they have incredible damage soak and pain tolerance.

E.g: Both of them tanked Kuma's Ursus Shock, an island wide explosion.

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Ok, first off, that Shockwave isn't covering anywhere near an island, just by comparing it to the building it's next to you can see it's City Block radius at best.

Secondly, it didn't even completely destroy the City Block area it exploded in.

So yeah, this at best a City Block level attack.

Zoro's pain tolerance in particular is just ridiculous.

Agreed.

I think everyone knows of this feat by now, at the climax of Thriller Bark, Zoro takes all the pain and damage sustained by Luffy during his fights, in addition to all the damage that Zoro had himself received throughout the arc, and survives.

Yep that's some ridiculous pain tolerance on par with even Meliodas' own.

In a nutshell, even though Zoro and Sanji would definitely take some damage from Mel's attacks, their insane pain tolerance would keep them in the fight long enough to finish Mel off.

Zoro you've proved, Sanji not so much.

Luffy, on the other hand, can just no sell most of Mel's attacks on account of his rubbery nature, and mitigate any cutting attacks with Armament Haki.

Nope, considering Mel mostly uses Cutting attacks which Luffy is still weak to if there powerful enough(refer to scans above), which Meliodases certainly are. The only other attacks Meliodas consistently uses are energy attacks in his Demon Form, which none of the trio have a particular weakness or resistance against. Mel barely utilises punches so Luffy's rubbery nature won't be a notable advantage here.

Observation Haki

This is basically very high level precognition.

True,

Pre skip, this allowed Luffy to avoid Mihawk's potentially fatal attack Note that his was a Luffy entirely untrained in the use of Haki.

Was it ever confirmed that this was due to Haki?

Post skip it has allowed Luffy to casually dodge lasers from a Pacifista (he even calls them slow), dodge a bullet after it has been fired at point blank range, and casually dance through Hody's barrage of water bullets(each of these bullets can level city blocks and cross an island in seconds).

Cool i guess, but nothing suggests Luffy wouldn't be able to dodge those attacks without pre-cog, so if you're trying to show how great Haki is this doesn't cut it.

All you're showing is that he has decent pre-cog.

Here's another good showing of Observation Haki.

Hakuba, a demon which awakens when its host Cavendish falls asleep,is ridiculously fast and could blitz and clear the entire D-Block (which all consisted of New World veterans) in seconds.

Only Rebecca, who is a relatively weak Haki user compared to the top tiers like M3, could react to Hakuba and outlast him.

Here's the full fight.

Don't exaggerate. Rebecca barely managed to react and only because Hakuba was lazily attacking in a straight forward line, besides, this has nothing to do wth the M3 anyway so why bring it up?

In summary, Observation Haki further evens out whatever little speed advantage Mel might possibly have.

I agree, which is why i suggest we focus on the other sections.

Countering your strategy

Cloning

I have yet to see a single scan of even true Mel legit busting a mountain, and your entire speed argument depends on scaling off Gilthunder.

But scaling from the Hill feat, Baste Dungeon feat and the Albion feat make it clear he casually operates on that level.

Also scaling from Gilthunder is fine because nothing contradicts the notion that his attacks are lightning speed and they have been confirmed as literal lightning multiple times.

That doesn't matter though, as I have shown, the pre skip M3 were at city/mountain lvl attack potency, and were already lightning timers as far back as Skypiea, the post skip M3 is on a whole different level. So if Mel's clones only have mountain lvl durability, they are gonna get one shotted real fast.

Hilarious. You've proven pre-skip M3 operate at City-Block+ level, but no more.

Mel's clones are there to handle Sanji and Zoro for a short while so Meliodas can body Luffy, which he can do quickly with his overwhelming cutting power, G4 or not.

Meliodas clones would have power level of about 30,000, meaning they operate on Mountain+ level looking at how powerful 3,370 Meliodas was and looking as that's above Galan who tanked Mountain level attacks with no damage at all.

This is easily enough to distract Sanji and Zoro so that Meliodas can dispose of Luffy quickly with a powerful cutting attack or with an attack by his darkness.

I doubt Mel's clones would last long against Zoro and Sanji, but this issue can be also be easily circumvented if Luffy goes G4 from the onset and just blitzes and one shots the 2 clones (G4 can quite easily do this).

Luffy never goes G4 off the bat, and he won't here considering he doesn't actually know how powerful Mel is.

Strategy

For taking Mel down, it makes sense for Luffy to go G4 right from the start. It does have a limited window, but even an exhausted Luffy who had already used up a lot of his haki could maintain G4 and fight evenly against Doflamingo's Awakening for about half an hour, so I think it would be enough for the purpose of this fight.

He doesn't do that in-character though, especially not against someone whose strength he can't evaluate.

Besides Luffy has already started to show more control over G4. He fought Cracker 12 hours straight in G4 and against very powerful opponents like Big Mom, it has been his go to move.

Only because he knew how strong they would be.( Big Mom=Yonko, obviously powerful)

Once he goes G4, he easily blitzes and one shots Mel's clones, and from there, the M3 gang up on the true Mel.

He won't go G4 before he gets annihilated.

A tentative plan of action can be G4 Luffy and Sanji grapples and holds him down, while Zoro drives a sword through his heart

Won't work, Meliodas can use his darkness to turn his hands into huge weapons or claws and push them away.

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Or he could block it with darkness armour.

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Besides, it wouldn't work anyway, Meliodas has 7 hearts.

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Demon Power

This is what i consider to be Meliodas' trump card. This power no longer has any drawbacks for him and many attributes that will help against the M3, those being...

Regeneration

Mel's Regeneration when using the Demon Power is amazing, so much so that Zoro's attacks will all be regenerated, making him nothing more than a nuisance.

Reconnects his arm, twice.

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Now for some context. Hendrickson, a human, gained the power of a significantly lower class Demon than Meliodas and Meliodas should have atleast = Regen to that Demon. Hendrickson performed these feats.

Heals from dozens of stabs all over his body in an instant.

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Heals from 3 huge cuts in an instant.

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Looking at this, nothing short of being cut into pieces or having all the bones in his body broken will stop Mel, neither of which the Team is capable of doing.

Another thing Mel's regeneration adds is the option to bait Zoro into slicing him, Zoro will think the fight is over and get destroyed while off-guard.

The other thing his demon powers give him is...

Darkness Energy Manipulation

Meliodas darkness is capable of some insane stuff, capable of nigh-one-shotting the M3 honestly.

Here he uses a beam of darkness to kill Gelda, making huge hole that was later revealed to be 30,000 feat deep(for reference that's nearly 1000 feet deeper than Mount Everest is high) or 5.7 Miles.

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Confirmed 30,000 feat.

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This is the textbook definition of a casual Large Mountain level attack, fully capable of one-shotting Sanji who has no feats to suggest he can take something like this.

Meliodas has done something even more impressive though.

Here he destroys an entire Kingdom using his darkness in a weaker incarnation. Said beam of darkness creates a huge crater and dwarfs even nearby Mountains.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

This proves current Meliodas' darkness should be sitting at a casual multi-mountain level, enough to one-shot at the very least Sanji and deal severe damage to Luffy or Zoro. The AOE is so massive dodging isn't an option either.

Conclusion

  • Meliodas is stronger and more durable than the M3 by a large margin
  • Meliodas darkness can and will severely injure anyone here and most likely one-shot Sanji
  • Meliodas regeneration will make him incredibly hard to put down
  • Meliodas clones can distract 2 members of the M3 while the real one stomps the other one
  • Meliodas wins
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#29 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: Well damn. This post was long as shit and took forever to make, probably the most effort i've ever put into one post.

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#30 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Edited by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: Exams just got over man. Already working on it. Give it a few more days.

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#33 Edited by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso said:

@hittheassasin: Exams just got over man. Already working on it. Give it a few more days.

How'd ya do?

That's fine, i just wanted confirmation.

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#34 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin:

How'd ya do?

Lot better than expected for sure. Was plenty distracted (which is mostly CV's fault), but somehow managed.

That's fine, i just wanted confirmation.

Np.

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#35 Edited by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: Round 2

Strength

Fair enough, but, if you look in the scan, it's still significantly taller than the Hills surrounding it, essentially dwarfing them.

Only the hills in question are small dwarf hills barely taller than the houses in Dalmary Town itself.

Anyway, I don't want to continue debating this rather trivial point in the grand scheme of things, especially since both parties have much better feats. I will say this though, keeping in mind that it was a side effect of Mel and Ban's arm wrestling, and the fact that the dungeon was magically reinforced, I can give that this is more or less a city block lvl feat at best, putting it anywhere above that is plain ludicrous.

It doesn't "absolutely blow it out of the water", it's solidly inferior. First off, Luffy took a lot of full power punches to do this, looking at the picture and the speeds Luffy operates at, even at this stage in the show, it's solidly 50 hits that did this damage, and looking at how many Buildings that was and the size of them, it's still only Small City Block level. This means you showed a feat that took took Luffy 50+ full power punches and was still only small City Block level... This doesn't compare to Meliodas's feat at all....

Way to lowball the feat...

Let's forget, shall we, that Luffy had to first overpower and break through Crocodile's sand blades,

Or that he punched Crocodile through meters of solid bedrock, and caused a fissure in the ground itself,

Or that Crocodile absorbed the brunt of Luffy's attack, and it was still more than enough to crack the very ground in half, and crumble a small city block in the process,

Or that this feat was performed by a poisoned, exhausted, near death, pre gears Luffy.

Yeah, but it sure seems as if Luffy was delivering attacks at his full power considering the amount of damage they do to Crocodile, how he's screaming etc.

No, Luffy was barely able to stand just a few minutes after Crocodile cut him, and its explicitly mentioned by Crocodile multiple times elsewhere that the poison was numbing Luffy's muscles.

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Entirely unimpressive, blasting a Skyscraper size hole in a wave of water with 2 people no less.... you'd be hard pressed to prove that's Skyscraper level, yet alone on the level Mel operates on.

Dude, that's no ordinary wave, that's a full fledged tsunami, which permanently submerges a part of Water 7 island every year it strikes, and was even bigger than usual during the events of the Water 7 arc.

Even at a premature stage, it was a city spanning wave easily.

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That just means they're artillery is shit, unless you're suggesting the water is somehow more durable....lol

You missed the point of the feat. Its not that their artillery couldn't break the water, it is that their artillery couldn't stop the momentum of a tsunami wave (which has city lvl destructive power), something Zoro and Luffy, did with ease. Even average real world tsunamis devastate towns easily.

To give a real world analogy, that feat is the equivalent of diverting the course of a hurricane with sheer strength.

I wouldn't put them at city lvl yet by this feat, but its well above city block lvl for sure, and this is still pre gears Luffy.

Ok, so Sanji deflects a casual Bazooka from Oars using his full power and that's impressive.....how exactly?

Its impressive because Oars was astronomically stronger than the entire pre skip crew put together (including Luffy).

The best (high end) feats you've shown thus far have Luffy at City Block level with 50+ punches so this means Sanji is sub-City Block level.....

Now, before you say Gears upgrade, where was it stated that Oars had Luffy's gear powers? Those are techniques that can only be performed using Luffy's body and have a special "look" that can be clearly identified, so the chances are Oars doesn't possess Luffy's gear powers, thus putting him at City Block level(Luffys base improved since the crocodile incident and Oars is Base Luffy+ his own powers, so he should be City Block level in one punch). This means, Sanji is now City Block level, hurray, it still doesn't remotely compare to even 3370 Meliodas.

Why are you comparing Oars to Luffy? Oars is much, much stronger than Luffy. He was the strongest enemy pre skip and teambusted the entire crew with ease. He no sold a vicious barrage of attacks from the insanely amped Nightmare Luffy (for reference , Nightmare Luffy is considered by many to be comparable to or even stronger than post skip Luffy). The SH's weren't even able to get a proper KO, but only won by incap.

Deflecting Oars's Bazooka is like overpowering several hundred tons of pure muscle moving at massively hypersonic speeds. That's easily city lvl.

Meliodas in his most powerful mode, Assault form otherwise known as 10 Commandments Era Meliodas, was capable of one-shotting Escanor while holding back no less.

Assault mode isn't really in character for Mel though.

Honestly, Meliodas is multi-mountain level in attack potency

In Assault mode maybe, but in general he is around city-mountain lvl by scaling.

and can destroy a M3 in a few blows.

Not really, more on this in durability section.

Now, let me bring out the M3's best dc feats.

Even if pre ts M3 being city/mountain lvl is debatable, post skip, they are comfortably so, with numerous instances to support my statement.

The first real feat post skip, is when the M3 casually oneshot Pacifistas, when previously it took the entire crew to barely put one down.

Pacifistas are basically World Government owned murder bots, and are just insanely durable among other things. Pre skip, not even the M3's combined most powerful moves + Robin's neck snap + Franky's powerful artillery + Usopp's explosives + Nami's weather attacks + Chopper's physical strikes (which is no pushover btw) could make so much as a dent in a Pacifista. Given just the M3's feats pre skip, that puts a Pacifista's durability well above city lvl.

What happened when the M3 faced an improved model of the Pacifistas post skip? See for yourself...

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1) Luffy one shots a Pacifista with his most basic move.

2) Ditto Zoro and Sanji.

So, post skip, the M3 haven't even left Sabaody, and we already have a mountain lvl feat.

That isn't all though, in the very next arc, Fishman Island, we see Luffy sending Hody flying with a single kick, bringing down a lot of a mountainous wall in the process.

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It is much better represented in the anime.

Luffy kicks Hody

In the same arc, he tops this feat with a second, even more impressive one.

When Fishman Island seems in danger of getting crushed by the falling Noah (which is a gigantic ship, nearly the size of the island itself), Luffy tries to destroy it before it crashes. He doesn't quite succeed, but does manage to do a crapton of damage, using one of his more powerful moves, Elephant Gatling.

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And the Noah is huge. Just look at its size compared to Fishman Island.

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Seeing the Noah's size, and how much damage Luffy did in just a few panels, this is a solid mountain lvl + feat.

For Zoro, well, this one feat is more than enough to prove he has casual mountain lvl cutting power.

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Cleaves Pica in two with a single slash. Note how buildings appear like specks on Pica's body. Also remember that Pica is a golem made of pure rock.

Now Sanji does not have the best direct dc feats that the other two have, but he is still strong enough for Doflamingo to comment on his strength, which is impressive considering Doffy was pretty much no selling post skip G2 Luffy's blows.

Sanji's main selling point though, is his Diablo Jambe technique and its accessory heat attacks. He can create enormous quantities of extremely hot flames nearly instantly, for example here he sets a small mountain sized demon's entire body on fire instantly.

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I haven't seen any durability feats from Mel that suggests that he can tank heat of this magnitude, and the AoE is so damn large that its doubtful whether he can dodge them.

Speed

Not much to this section, neither party will be blitzing the other, my aim is simply to prove that just like SDS top tiers, the M3 are several orders above lightning timing as well.

First, some small counters.

Well, Enel is wrong, looking at how Nami and Fodder where able to react to him moving and because, while his lightning bolts may be lightning speed,

Aaaaaaand, this proves that you have never read One Piece and have no idea what you are talking about.

This is the scan in question.

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First off, Nami never "reacts" to Enel's movements, she just provides exposition on how Enel is moving (by using the gold as a conducting medium, same as electricity, further proof that Enel's powers are indeed same as real world lightning).

And now, this one is the biggie, that little girl you call "fodder" is actually Aisa, a very important supporting character of the arc, and the only person on Skypiea, apart from Enel's gang, who had "Observation Haki".

If anything, this is a tremendous feat of Observation Haki, seeing how a young girl, entirely untrained in its use, can easily perceive lightning speed movements.

Apart from the one above, Luffy has one other solid lightning timing feat, in Skypiea itself, when he kicks away one of Enel's lightning bolts.

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Enels lightning speed is dubious at best looking as how Nami was able to react to him and fodder where able to react to them on numerous occasions, even in one of your scans actually.

Nope, never happened. I reread the entire arc, no "fodder" ever reacted to Enel's attacks, with only the M3 being capable of at least keeping up.

And in Enies Lobby, we of course get the weakest CP9 member Kalifa reacting multiple times to Nami's lightning.

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1) Kalifa goes FTE, dodges Nami's lightning balls and blitzes her.

2) Reacts to a massive thunder storm attack at point blank range.

To give an idea of how fast the M3 were by Enies Lobby, Sanji was too fast for Kalifa, inspite of holding back heavily (you know Sanji's gimmick), blitzing her easily.

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Conclusion:

At least in raw speed, the M3 is dead equal with Mel, with both being several tiers above lightning timing.

The M3 edges it out though because they have high level precognition. As seen, even latent Observation Haki in untrained young girls gives you lightning fast perceptions.

On Mel's durability

I find it hilarious that you want to put beginning of series Mel's durability at mountain + levels.

Also, you're missing the point. Diane's strength at that point was only very minimally < Meliodas' own and yet he could tank her attack which proves he can tank attacks at his own power level, which are Multi-Mountain and far superior to the M3.

As I have proven, the M3 post skip are well above mountain lvl even with basic attacks.

which proves he can tank attacks at his own power level, which are Multi-Mountain and far superior to the M3.

Really? Because iirc Meliodas got KO'd nearly every arc upto the Kingdom Infiltration saga.

He got quite easily taken out by Guila's explosions, and spit up blood from a single punch of Ban's. So what next, Guila and Ban are multi-mountain lvl as well?

One instance that particularly stands out is the fight against Helbram in the Fight Festival arc.

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Demon Form Meliodas gets straight up one shotted by a casual backhand from Helbram, an attack which doesn't even leave a decent crater in the mountain it crashes into.

Split Durability isn't a thing unless specifically stated so.(f.x Luffy without Gear 4)

You'll have to prove Meliodas has split durability to make this argument work.

Using this split durability logic is how it came to "neck feats for ....., else ..... just cuts his neck" for a while.

What do you mean, split durability is a staple in debating, and just about every fictional character shows it.

To give a few examples, Luffy is immune to blunt force, but his durability against cutting/piercing attacks is much lower, Thanos has much better energy than physical durability, etc.

I have yet to see any heat resistance feats for Mel to prove he won't get burnt to a crisp by Sanji's flames.

As for cutting resistance, unless Mel is using Demon from black mass for protection, he isn't particularly durable against cutting/piercing attacks. He is cut easily by Gilthunder, Helbram, Hendricksen, and the Commandments. Zoro's mountain level slashes would mess him up.

Nor is his pain tolerance anything noteworthy.

Meliodas collpases after taking a shoulder gash from Gilthunder, a mid tier Holy Knight.

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That is a wound which any of the M3 would have barely noticed.

He tanks all these attacks from the ten commandments.

This is a good feat of damage soak, but he is still clearly damaged and is even losing an arm.

Now you might say that he has his demon mode healing factors, but Mel's healing isn't something that is involuntary, like say Deadpool's or Wolverine's he can't regenerate entire limbs. He can only reattach his limbs, and I doubt he would get the time when fighting 3 opponents as fast as him.

On the M3's durability

You seem to put Mel's attack potency in the mountain-multi mountain range, so my goal in this section is to prove the M3's durability and damage soak is at that level.

First, the customary counters.

Yep, Luffy is immune to physical force which means it's good that Mel relies exclusively on cutting attacks, Luffys weakness.

Who was the one that said again that split durability is not a thing?

Luffy is completely immune to blunt force, hence he is completely immune to cutting attacks as well and Mel loses by default :P

Jk

Ok, first off, that Shockwave isn't covering anywhere near an island, just by comparing it to the building it's next to you can see it's City Block radius at best.

No Kuma's Ursus Shock compresses a large amount of air into a very small bubble, and releases the entire air as a tremendously destructive shockwave.

Said blast of pressurized air covered the entirety of Thriller Bark (which is a ship as large as an island) and one shotted everyone on it, except Zoro and Sanji.

The span of Ursus Shock is better presented in this scan.

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As you can see, it not only devastated Thriller Bark entirely, but even went beyond that and rocked the surrounding ocean.

Zoro and Sanji tanked this attack after all the damage they has already taken from fighting Oars and throughout the arc in general. That's some seriously impressive durability.

Zoro you've proved, Sanji not so much.

So you agree that Zoro can stand up to Mel's attacks? Good, one down, two to go, for those keeping count.

So let's see a few feats for Sanji.

To start off, he tanked Ursus Shock, which is a big blunt durability showing in itself.

Another really cool feat of blunt durability, is when being 10,000 meters below sea level barely affects his fighting ability, like at all.

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Not only does he not even notice the enormous sea pressure, but casually oneshots some humongous demon.

For cutting durability, he has tanked Doflamingo's 5 strings attack head on, and recovered very quickly.

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Doflamingo's strings slice through meteorites, steel structures etc, and this same attack took out Vice Admiral Smoker, a powerful character in his own right, for more than a whole day.

As for energy durability, well, Sanji's main form of offense is generating intensely hot, reentry level+ flames, and coming out entirely unscathed.

He has also tanked Enel's "God Judgement", which is a massive bolt of lightning, with no lasting damage to his body.

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And the best part is that he is not even KO'd instantly.

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Sanji has more than enough raw durability and damage soak in all three departments, blunt, cutting and energy to withstand Mel's attacks.

I disagree. He's still weak to powerful enough cutting attacks as showcased in his fight against Commander Cracker.

Another out of context argument. Cracker could cut him yes, but the reason for that isn't because of Cracker's strength, but because Cracker has stronger haki than Luffy.

Let's not forget that G4 has withstood Doffy's full power kicks (which can slice through buildings just by air pressure), and his best string based cutting attacks. Doffy's strings are so incredibly tough that not even people like Zoro or Fujitora could cut through his Bird Cage, and his strings can pierce Jozu's Diamond tough skin.

For that matter, Luffy even in base has tanked multiple string based cutting attacks from Doffy and kept on fighting.

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So, no, I don't believe Mel will find it very easy cutting through Luffy's haki.

Gear 4

The question here is whether or not Luffy will use G4 immediately if he doesn't know of Mel's power level.

I say its very likely, because one of the uses of Observation Haki is estimating your opponent's strength, as explained by Rayleigh.

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Rayleigh uses Haki to estimate the number of beasts stronger than Luffy.

All 3 are proficient Haki users, so they can immediately gauge how big of a threat Mel is.

What were you smoking when you said this? I'm sorry but look at your scan.... Those are at best a few City Blocks, nowhere near the entirety of Dressrosa goddamnit. It's an impressive feat but don't go overhyping it to much ok.

Well, it was also done by a nearly haki depleted Luffy (haki is very important for G4), had to overpower Doflamingo's God Thread and Spider's Web simultaneously (his strongest offensive and defensive techniques respectively. Spider's Web has no sold attacks from Trafalgar Law and Luffy's Elephant Gatling), and the bulk of the impact was absorbed by Doffy himself.

Also just the indirect impact of Doffy colliding was enough to fold an enormous chunk of the ground and lift it miles into the air.

That's >>>>> simply destroying the buildings in a city block, and for that matter better than any dc feat you have shown for Mel as well.

Its probably not truly island lvl yet, but make no mistake, a direct KKG from a fresh Luffy would have done a lot of damage all over Dressrosa

I don't think he fact that he was exhausted matters much in a series like One Piece. He was using his most powerful attack and clearly at full power no less.

Like the Crocodile feat, again it was explicitly pointed out several times how Luffy was on his last dregs of haki and barely able to stand considering how G4 taxes his body. So your point is moot.

Extremely impressive, and i agreee that G4 would most certainly be able to keep up with Mel,,

I disagree, I think G4 is blatantly faster than Mel. Apart from reacting to Gilthunder's lightning, everything from there relies on stacked scaling, which would put Mel several tiers above lightning timing level. But so are Supernova lvl characters like the M3 and Law, via scaling from Enis Lobby and Skypiea, and in fact they have a lot more quantifiable feats than Mel . Doflamingo had no problem keeping up with or even outspeeding the likes of Law, Sanji or G2 Luffy.

This same Doflamingo was utterly trashed by G4, and don't forget that Doffy is a proficient precognition user as well, unlike Mel. I am not convinced that Mel is even faster than Doflamingo tbh, let alone G4.

Observation Haki

I can't exaggerate how annoying this will make for Mel to tag the M3.

You sort of already conceded this point, but I can't help posting one of the coolest feats from the current arc.

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Sanji repeatedly dodges Katakuri's Jelly Bean shots.

Katakuri is one of Big Mom's Sweet Commanders and his own CoO is so potent that it allows him to see a few seconds into the future. He is dominating G2 Luffy physically in the latest chapter.

Honestly, durability wise, Sanji was the one you had the best chance of putting down quickly. But seeing his level of CoO, I doubt Mel is tagging him with any ease, if at all.

More counters

Hilarious. You've proven pre-skip M3 operate at City-Block+ level, but no more.

Well, I hope this post was an epiphany of sorts for you.

Mel's clones are there to handle Sanji and Zoro for a short while

Nah, I don't think Mel's 30,000 clones would be enough to beat Zoro or Sanji. And G4 Luffy can two shot them easily.

Meliodas can body Luffy, which he can do quickly with his overwhelming cutting power, G4 or not.

There's nothing to prove Mel's cutting power is higher than Doflamingo's best attacks, so no. And just for the record, Luffy doesn't need G4 to defend against cutting attacks, he only needs his Armament Haki for that (can show scans of him tanking Doffy's strings in base form with nothing but haki if you want). G4 just covers a large part of his body with haki.

Luffy never goes G4 off the bat, and he won't here considering he doesn't actually know how powerful Mel is.

Observation Haki. And it wouldn't take more than a single attack from Mel for Luffy to estimate his power level anyway.

He won't go G4 before he gets annihilated.

Luffy can use Armament Haki to block Mel's first cutting attack, and then go G4 right away. But he should realistically use G4 from the start once he gauges Mel's level by haki.

Won't work, Meliodas can use his darkness to turn his hands into huge weapons or claws and push them away.

Mel is no match for G4 Luffy in grappling strength.

G4 Luffy is the only person so far in the series who has ripped through Doflamingo's Parasite String on panel.

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To put this in perspective, Diamond Jozu, one of Whitebeard's commanders couldn't do so, and that guy ripped out and threw a freaking mountain sized iceberg, which still remains one of the best lifting/grappling strength feats in the series to this day.

Look at its scale compared to the giants
Look at its scale compared to the giants

Or he could block it with darkness armour.

It doesn't cover Mel's entire body though, so he would still be cut by Zoro's mountain spanning strikes. Or he can be engulfed in flames by Sanji's Hell Memories technique. What heat resistance feats does this armor have?

Zoro has other good AoE attacks as well, like his Tatsumaki, which is a huge tornado that can cut through steel like fruit.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

These AoE techniques would cut up Mel where he's exposed and keep him at bay.

Besides, it wouldn't work anyway, Meliodas has 7 hearts.

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Decapitation or head shots should still drop him.

Demon Form

A disclaimer: Last I checked this used to rob Mel of his sanity and is not at all in character for him. Is that changed now, and can you show some scans of Mel resorting to this straightaway in a random encounter? Also does this form have any durability feats of its own?

Also can the clones use this form?

Heals from dozens of stabs all over his body in an instant.

Heals from 3 huge cuts in an instant.

Those are all just surface cuts though. Can it regenerate from a clean decapitation? Zoro cleaved the mountain sized Pica in half with a casual slash, his cutting power is exponentially larger than King's.

Looking at this, nothing short of being cut into pieces or having all the bones in his body broken will stop Mel, neither of which the Team is capable of doing.

From what I can see, Zoro's cutting power is enough to mince him like cheese. You haven't really shown too many cutting durability feats for Mel, and he has taken damage from far weaker characters like Gilthunder for example.

And what about heat based attacks? Can Mel regenerate from Sanji's Hell Memories burning off his skin? Luffy packs heat based attacks too, like Red Hawk for example.

Another thing Mel's regeneration adds is the option to bait Zoro into slicing him, Zoro will think the fight is over and get destroyed while off-guard.

Observation haki

This proves current Meliodas' darkness should be sitting at a casual multi-mountain level, enough to one-shot at the very least Sanji and deal severe damage to Luffy or Zoro.

These are indeed impressive feats of dc, but again I ask, how in character is this for Mel in a random encounter?

Also I think Sanji has shown at least enough energy durability to take a few of these blasts (tanking Enel's strongest attack, using Diable Jambe, which covers his entire body in flames, etc).

The AOE is so massive dodging isn't an option either.

This I disagree with. Both G4 Luffy and Sanji are capable of flight, and Sanji in particular is insanely fast with his "Skywalk" technique, while G4 Luffy flew the length of a city so fast that he was FTE to Doflamingo. That combined with their precog, and Mel's own inability to fly means they should be able to keep out of Mel's energy blasts' range.

That leaves Zoro, but his energy durability is just as good as Sanji's and he has the best pain tolerance of the 3 by far. And he has his own AoE techniques to trouble Mel.

Conclusions

Here is why the Trio wins:

  • Raw speed seems equal to me, but the M3 has an edge due to their precognition.
  • The post skip M3 is well above mountain busting, even in base form, so they can easily harm Mel.
  • You have not shown any notable heat or cutting durability feats for Mel so far.
  • I'd wager G4 can actually outstrip Mel in stats. G4 is a lot stronger than Mel for sure, and Observation Haki solves the issue of whether Luffy would use it right away.
  • The M3 have shown more than enough cutting, blunt and energy durability to suggest they can take a lot of Mel's attacks. Their impressive pain tolerance would keep them in the fight as well.
  • I'm not sure Mel's best chance, using his Demon mode powers, is even in character for him.
  • His clones can be one shotted by G4 and wouldn't stand up to more than a few blows from Zoro or Sanji as well.

As for a strategy, once the clones are dispatched, Sanji engulfs Mel in Hell's Memories, Zoro keeps his distance and sends a Dragon Twister along his way, while slicing him up with mountain busting slashes from afar, G4 Luffy goes cqc and just pounds him up with his plethora of immensely destructive moves like Kong Gun, Leo Bazooka, Rhino Schneider, etc.

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#36 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by darthjhawk (1655 posts) - - Show Bio

Dang, great debate so far.

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#38 Edited by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso:apart from the lowballing(though i admit i too am guilty of this), great post. I'll get one up in the next 1-2 weeks.

Dang, great debate so far.

thanks, it's been fun as well.

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#39 Posted by DeathHero61 (16002 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting. I will actually read through this, T4V and expect a long analysis.

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#40 Posted by Novawing (120 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#41 Edited by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso:Here it is, my final(probably) post.

Round 3: Final Counters

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Strength

Only the hills in question are small dwarf hills barely taller than the houses in Dalmary Town itself.

Not true at all. Look at the scan, the hills clearly dwarf the likes of regular Houses. Baste Dungeon is City block size for sure.

Anyway, I don't want to continue debating this rather trivial point in the grand scheme of things, especially since both parties have much better feats.

While that's true, this feat matters in scaling category, so i'll continue debating it.

I will say this though, keeping in mind that it was a side effect of Mel and Ban's arm wrestling, and the fact that the dungeon was magically reinforced, I can give that this is more or less a city block lvl feat at best, putting it anywhere above that is plain ludicrous.

Wait wut..... Based on scaling to Diane's size, the hills and the fact that the Dungeon could be seen as a huge structure from 8 miles away, it's City Block size. Adding the fact that it was reinforced by a town++(10 Town level monsters couldn't destroy it) spell.

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Adding to that that this was done casually and as a side-effect of Meliodas strength, puts this feat at Multi-Town level, at best, low-end City level.

Way to lowball the feat...

Yeah, looking back at my post, i overdid it. Sorry.

Let's forget, shall we, that Luffy had to first overpower and break through Crocodile's sand blades,

True, but he clearly had already done that, then still wailed on with a shit load of punches. Based on the scan and how long it took for the ground to break, it was still atleast 50+ punches hitting Crocodile and the ground around him.

Or that he punched Crocodile through meters of solid bedrock, and caused a fissure in the ground itself,

Yeah, but that's part of being City-block level. To be City-block level, you have to be able to completely destroy a city-block sized area, never you destroy the buildings and the ground, or do it by punching through the bedrock to cause such a reaction. This onset make the feat anymore impressive, it's just one way to achieve City-Block level destruction.

Or that Crocodile absorbed the brunt of Luffy's attack, and it was still more than enough to crack the very ground in half, and crumble a small city block in the process,

Yeah, but several of Luffy's punches probably hit the ground behind him.

Besides this is balanced out by the fact that it took a Supersonic Luffy several seconds worth of punches(bare minimum 50-100)

Or that this feat was performed by a poisoned, exhausted, near death, pre gears Luffy.

That would make the feat more impressive, though by how much is up for interpretation.

Overall, this is a solid City-block level feat, though, even BoS Mel's Baste Dungeon feat clearly eclipses it.

No, Luffy was barely able to stand just a few minutes after Crocodile cut him, and its explicitly mentioned by Crocodile multiple times elsewhere that the poison was numbing Luffy's muscles.

Fair enough, this does make the feat more impressive, though by how much is, once agin, up for interpretation.

As said above, it's a City-Block level feat in my opinion.

Dude, that's no ordinary wave, that's a full fledged tsunami, which permanently submerges a part of Water 7 island every year it strikes, and was even bigger than usual during the events of the Water 7 arc.

OK.

Even at a premature stage, it was a city spanning wave easily.

That's cool and all, but the hole Luffy and Zoro blasted in it was clearly not City sized, so i don't see how that's relevant.

You missed the point of the feat. Its not that their artillery couldn't break the water, it is that their artillery couldn't stop the momentum of a tsunami wave (which has city lvl destructive power)

Well, duh. You can't stop a wave with a rocket launcher. Also, just because it's clearly City-Block+ sized, doesn't mean it has that much power, unless you can prove that.

, something Zoro and Luffy, did with ease.

Not with ease, they were clearly both exhausted afterwards.

Even average real world tsunamis devastate towns easily.

Yeah, that's true, but it's hard to equate a wave to a level of destructive power, as water functions completely differently to the likes of stone etc.

What i'm trying to say is that it's hard to quantify how much energy it would take to blast a hole in the Tsunami, apart from "a lot".

To give a real world analogy, that feat is the equivalent of diverting the course of a hurricane with sheer strength.

So, also kinda unquantifiable?

I wouldn't put them at city lvl yet by this feat, but its well above city block lvl for sure, and this is still pre gears Luffy.

Looking at the size of the hole, how difficult it is to temporarily stop the momentum of the attack, but how it is still done by a combined attack using a lot of energy from the duo, i'd place it at City-Block level, which is consistent with the power they've showcased thus far. Still a Far cry from Mel though.

Its impressive because Oars was astronomically stronger than the entire pre skip crew put together (including Luffy).

Why are you comparing Oars to Luffy? Oars is much, much stronger than Luffy. He was the strongest enemy pre skip and teambusted the entire crew with ease.

Then how did Sanji deflect his attack? There's 3 options.

1) He was holding back, which makes this feat unquantifiable

2) He isn't that strong( not true)

3) PIS

Either way, this feat doesn't prove anything. Sanki deflects an attack from a guy who's only feat is.... being stronger than Sanji, Zoro and Luffy? Wut? That doesn't even make sense. This feat relies too heavily on some very wonky scaling, that doesn't make any sense when you take a close look.

He no sold a vicious barrage of attacks from the insanely amped Nightmare Luffy(for reference , Nightmare Luffy is considered by many to be comparable to or even stronger than post skip Luffy).

Nightmare Luffy ain't > Post-Skip Luffy. His only feat is beating Oars, who's only feat is beating PTS Strawhats so....

Besides, what does this show about Oars strength? All you've done is show how durable Oars is, which is, btw, due to him being a Zombie, as stated by the guys in the very panel you posted.

The SH's weren't even able to get a proper KO, but only won by incap.

Once again, if Oars is this strong, why did Sanji manage to deflect his attack? It makes no sense.

Deflecting Oars's Bazooka is like overpowering several hundred tons of pure muscle moving at massively hypersonic speeds. That's easily city lvl.

This is baseless Conjecture without any scan to back it up.

Assault mode isn't really in character for Mel though.

Current Mel is Assault Mode so.....

In Assault mode maybe, but in general he is around city-mountain lvl by scaling.

No. He's solidly Multi-Mountain, as i have proven in several scans, which you chose to just ignore. Here they are, for reference.

Lol at this. Yes, it's a hill level cutting feat but there are 3 huge things your leaving out here.

1) This was done with a twig, which is << a Sword, which in turn is << Mel's sacred treasure.

Just for comparison, Meliodas with a basic sword couldldn't even break Albion's skin...

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But, with his Sacred Treasure he can casually cut said Monsters arm into pieces, with ease no less.

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Going from being unable to break the skin to cutting right through it's arm is undoubtedly a massive increase(10x, minimum), then considering the difference between a regular ass twig and a sharp, well crafted sword, the difference is ridiculous(30x, once again, bare minimum).

2)This was just the shockwave of his swing, it's not like he actually hit it, it was the air pressure of his swing with a twig that did this, a huge, huge difference.

3) This Meliodas is incredibly weaker than current.

Considering the first 2 points this honestly places PL:3370 Meliodas at Mountain+ level, bare minimum and he increases massively.

And this section as well:

Yeah, no. That Mel could already bust a hill with the mere shockwave of a twig, which is <<<< his sacred treasure, and bust a city block sized structure that was reinforced with a town++ level spell casually and without trying. Also, he clearly performs at Mountain level with Lostvayne looking at how he can casually cut Albion's arm into slices.

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From right to left.

For reference, Albion was able to tank City Block+ level Meliodas attacks without them even breaking his skin.

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Adding that to Albion's sheer size shown in these scans,

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proves Meliodas is definitely Mountain+ level.

Galan blocked an attack from him in his demon form, who's power level was actually 4400 without a scratch. This clearly puts Galan's durability at Mountain+ - Multi-Mountain level. Meliodas later curb stomps and cuts him up casually without his demon power and Meliodas got significantly stronger later.

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And this as well:

Meliodas in his most powerful mode, Assault form otherwise known as 10 Commandments Era Meliodas, was capable of one-shotting Escanor while holding back no less.

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This is the same Escanor(probably more powerful actually) that tanked Galans strike literally without any damage.

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The mere aftershock(most of the force was absorbed by Escanors body) was Mountain sized and cut the tops of of Large Hills many miles away and was felt by Meliodas and Merlin(also many miles away). Additionally, scaling from 3370 Mel(already atleast City Level) also puts Galan at Mountain level considering he casually overpowered said Meliodas.

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Honestly, Meliodas is multi-mountain level in attack potency and can destroy a M3 in a few blows.

So yeah. I don't think denying the things stated without countering any of these feats i posted is a valid method of debating, now is it?

.

Not really, more on this in durability section.

Now, let me bring out the M3's best dc feats.

Ay, finally.

Even if pre ts M3 being city/mountain lvl is debatable, post skip, they are comfortably so, with numerous instances to support my statement.

City level, yup. Mountain level, eh, possibly G4 Luffy and that's it.

The first real feat post skip, is when the M3 casually oneshot Pacifistas, when previously it took the entire crew to barely put one down.

True.

Pacifistas are basically World Government owned murder bots, and are just insanely durable among other things. Pre skip, not even the M3's combined most powerful moves + Robin's neck snap + Franky's powerful artillery + Usopp's explosives + Nami's weather attacks + Chopper's physical strikes (which is no pushover btw) could make so much as a dent in a Pacifista.

That's also true, and very impressive. Though i may note that Pacifista's can be damaged by far less than City level attacks, actually, even less than City--Block level attacks.

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Though i will admit that it would take around City level power to one-shot a Pacifista.

Given just the M3's feats pre skip, that puts a Pacifista's durability well above city lvl.

Eh, Pacifista's were damaged by far less than that. I'll give you City level though.

What happened when the M3 faced an improved model of the Pacifistas post skip? See for yourself...

1) Luffy one shots a Pacifista with his most basic move.

Not quite his most basic, he used Gear 2 and haki, but i get your point.

2) Ditto Zoro and Sanji.

Yep.

So, post skip, the M3 haven't even left Sabaody, and we already have a mountain lvl feat.

Calm down. They caused heavy internal damage to Pacifista's, which would take City level power, but Mounatian level?? Pacifista's have been hurt by less than City-Block level power, so don't push your luck.

That isn't all though, in the very next arc, Fishman Island, we see Luffy sending Hody flying with a single kick, bringing down a lot of a mountainous wall in the process.

Bad feat. Look at the railings next to the damage done. It's at best Building+ level. This was done by Hody flying into it, an after effect of Luffy's punch, so it's a bit more, but all-in-all, the Pacifista one is definitely better.

It is much better represented in the anime.

Luffy kicks Hody

It's straight different. The damage done is much larger, thus making this feat non-canon, as the manga takes precedence.

In the same arc, he tops this feat with a second, even more impressive one.

Good for him.

When Fishman Island seems in danger of getting crushed by the falling Noah (which is a gigantic ship, nearly the size of the island itself), Luffy tries to destroy it before it crashes. He doesn't quite succeed, but does manage to do a crapton of damage, using one of his more powerful moves, Elephant Gatling.

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Good feat. However, it looks like he destroyed slightly less than half of the Noah and it's undeniable that he used 50+ punches to do so. It's also undeniable that it's made of wood, which is >> the likes of rock and steel, which would also make it less impressive(albeit minimally).

Then there's also the fact that it's not nearly as large as fishman island, which can be seen in one of your scans, actually.

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Fishman Island is in the big ass bubble below. So, yeah, Noah isn't even nearly as large as an Island, which can also be proven by the fact that Luffy can be seen above the Noah(little dot near the back end of the Noah). Noah is Mountain+ size at best, combining that with the fact that it took Luffy 50+ punches, he only destroyed about half of it and that it's made of wood, doesn't put the feat above City+, tbh, which isn't enough to properly damage Meliodas' multi-Mountain durability.

And the Noah is huge. Just look at its size compared to Fishman Island.

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That's only a very small part of the Island though, probably not even City sized. Other scans clearly show that it's much, much smaller than the actual Island.

Seeing the Noah's size, and how much damage Luffy did in just a few panels, this is a solid mountain lvl + feat.

Cleaves Pica in two with a single slash. Note how buildings appear like specks on Pica's body. Also remember that Pica is a golem made of pure rock.

Pica..... isn't...... Mountain...... sized...

There are 3 scans clearly depicting Pica's size. The biggest one puts him at City size when you compare his height and width to the entire City of Dressrosa below him. The smaller ones put him at City-Block sized.

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Then there's also the fact that Zoro can be seen next to Pica, and scaling him to Pica, proves this Pica definitely isn't anything above City sized, but probably smaller. I'll agree with City level cutting power, but no more. Not that that's enough to even scratch Mel by the way. He can catch 114,000 power level Escanors cutting attacks without a scratch, the same Escanor that cut Galan in half in a far weaker form, who, as i have already shown, tanked City-Block++ Meliodas' attacks without a scratch and stomped Estarossa, who's physical strength is 53,000, 50x greater than City-Block++ level Meliodas.

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This clearly puts Meliodas' cutting durability at casual Mountain++, which is enough to no-sell Zoro's attacks, just like he did Escanors.

Now Sanji does not have the best direct dc feats that the other two have, but he is still strong enough for Doflamingo to comment on his strength, which is impressive considering Doffy was pretty much no selling post skip G2 Luffy's blows.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm, looking at his tone in the anime. Doesn't matter anyway though.

Sanji's main selling point though, is his Diablo Jambe technique and its accessory heat attacks. He can create enormous quantities of extremely hot flames nearly instantly, for example here he sets a small mountain sized demon's entire body on fire instantly.

Sigh....

> Mountain sized

> Sanji is clearly visible next to him

I haven't seen any durability feats from Mel that suggests that he can tank heat of this magnitude, and the AoE is so damn large that its doubtful whether he can dodge them.

Lol. Here Meliodas takes no damage from Escanors passive heat, which could heavily burn Izraf who was completely immune to normal fire, in a weaker form.

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Here Escanors passive heat burns Izraf's black plate armour(immune to Purgatory fire which is >> normal fire) and completely vaporises a castle made of solid stone.

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(right to left)

Esacanors heat has far better and more quantifiable "heat" feats than Sanji's and Mel no sold it.

Mel will take Sanji's Diable Janbe without any damage.

Speed

Not much to this section, neither party will be blitzing the other, my aim is simply to prove that just like SDS top tiers, the M3 are several orders above lightning timing as well.

Aight, i agree.

Aaaaaaand, this proves that you have never read One Piece and have no idea what you are talking about.

This is the scan in question.

First off, Nami never "reacts" to Enel's movements, she just provides exposition on how Enel is moving (by using the gold as a conducting medium, same as electricity, further proof that Enel's powers are indeed same as real world lightning).

yep, but to do that she'd have to be able to see Enel moving, so.... same thing. Though i don't think this needs to be discussed because Luffy has other lightning timing level feats.

And now, this one is the biggie, that little girl you call "fodder" is actually Aisa, a very important supporting character of the arc, and the only person on Skypiea, apart from Enel's gang, who had "Observation Haki".

If anything, this is a tremendous feat of Observation Haki, seeing how a young girl, entirely untrained in its use, can easily perceive lightning speed movements.

No, it just shows that Enel isn't lightning speed because both Fodder girl(Haki or not) and Name could react to Enel as well. Though, once again, i don't think this matters due to Luffy having better lightning timing feats anyway.

Apart from the one above, Luffy has one other solid lightning timing feat, in Skypiea itself, when he kicks away one of Enel's lightning bolts.

This is a legit lightning timing feat, nothing to say about it.

And in Enies Lobby, we of course get the weakest CP9 member Kalifa reacting multiple times to Nami's lightning.

1) Kalifa goes FTE, dodges Nami's lightning balls and blitzes her.

Ok.

2) Reacts to a massive thunder storm attack at point blank range.

Yep, lightning speed, nothing else to say about it.

To give an idea of how fast the M3 were by Enies Lobby, Sanji was too fast for Kalifa, inspite of holding back heavily (you know Sanji's gimmick), blitzing her easily.

Ok, M3 were Lightning+ even pre-skip, but so was BoS Mel.

Conclusion:

At least in raw speed, the M3 is dead equal with Mel, with both being several tiers above lightning timing.

Well, you've proved pre-skip M3 are lightning+, but so was BoS Mel.(Demon Form could blitz Gilthunder).

After that i showed how ridiculously much faster than lightning Mel was. To summarise, Meliodas blitzed a character, who blitzed a character, who blitzeda character, who blitzed a character, who blitzed a Lightning+ speed guy.

That's an insane difference. You'd need to prove the M3's speed has increased anywhere near that much to make an Argument that base M3 are equal to Meliodas in speed.

The only one who i'd say is equal to Meliodas in speed is G4.

The M3 edges it out though because they have high level precognition.

Mel's still faster, which evens the playing field.

As seen, even latent Observation Haki in untrained young girls gives you lightning fast perceptions.

Enel himself isn't lightning speed.

On Mel's durability

I find it hilarious that you want to put beginning of series Mel's durability at mountain + levels.

Mountain+ is a bit much, i'll admit that. I do put him around City level with Lostvayne though.

As I have proven, the M3 post skip are well above mountain lvl even with basic attacks.

City level, yep. Mountain level, hell no. Besides, Mel doesn't even get scratched by Mountain level attacks currently.

Really? Because iirc Meliodas got KO'd nearly every arc upto the Kingdom Infiltration saga.

That was partly due to Hax, Mel letting that happen and some PIS as well.

He got quite easily taken out by Guila's explosions,

This was way back at BoS. Guila's Explosions can very well be in the City-Block++ range, which is what's required to hurt even BoS Mel. They're is nothing so spectacularly wrong about that, looking at the fact that she was above a holding back BoS Mel.

and spit up blood from a single punch of Ban's.

Context. Ban had absorbed a ton of Meliodas' own physical strength with physical hunt and added it to his own.

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So what next, Guila and Ban are multi-mountain lvl as well?

Nowhere did i state it required multi-mountain power to hurt BoS Mel. I'll admit it would only take City-Block++ level attacks to hurt him and City level+ should be his limit.

One instance that particularly stands out is the fight against Helbram in the Fight Festival arc.

Demon Form Meliodas gets straight up one shotted by a casual backhand from Helbram, an attack which doesn't even leave a decent crater in the mountain it crashes into.

First of, that's PIS. This was Helbram tapping into only a bit of Hendricksons strength, yet he was able to one-shot Meliodas with full demon power. This makes no sense because Meliodas later solo blitzes a stronger Hendrickson in Demon form.

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Additionally, you shouldn't use lack of environmental damage to come to conclusions like that, because otherwise Sanji isn't even Wall level.

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and Jiren is merely Wall++ level.

0:03 onwards

What do you mean, split durability is a staple in debating, and just about every fictional character shows it.

prove Mel has "split durability".

To give a few examples, Luffy is immune to blunt force, but his durability against cutting/piercing attacks is much lower, Thanos has much better energy than physical durability, etc.

Neither of these characters are Meliodas. Prove Meliodas has split durability.

I have yet to see any heat resistance feats for Mel to prove he won't get burnt to a crisp by Sanji's flames.

As shown above, he tanked Escanors flames with no damage. And Escanors heat is far hotter than Sanji's based on feats.

As for cutting resistance, unless Mel is using Demon from black mass for protection, he isn't particularly durable against cutting/piercing attacks.

Uhm....

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He is cut easily by Gilthunder,

C O N T E X T.... He let himself get cut by Gilthunder.

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And besides, you act like Gilthunder is weak. He was capable of busting a town with a regular ass spear from miles away.

Helbram,

Was stronger than Mel at the time, due to receiving buffs from several holy knights and Hendrickson himself. So, that's perfectly valid.

Hendricksen,

Was also almost as strong as Mel at the time and Mel was holding back and not fighting back.

and the Commandments.

As strong or stronger than Mel during that time(power levels) and have mountain+ level power.

Zoro's mountain level slashes would mess him up.

Lol no. First off, all of the examples you showed were from a significantly weaker Meliodas and current Mel has no sold Escanors Multi-Mountain level attacks. Secondly, none of them were low showings, those were all guys very close to Mel in power at the time, unlike Zoro.

Nor is his pain tolerance anything noteworthy.

Wut?

Meliodas collpases after taking a shoulder gash from Gilthunder, a mid tier Holy Knight.

Deep ass cut and he tanked it for hours without any reactions, he was Ko'ed due to bloodless that has nothing to do with his pain tolerance, which is really good.

That is a wound which any of the M3 would have barely noticed.

*sigh*

This is a good feat of damage soak, but he is still clearly damaged and is even losing an arm.

Sure, but he survived a ton of City-Mountain level attacks in a weaker form. It's a better durability feat than anything you've showed for the M3.

Now you might say that he has his demon mode healing factors, but Mel's healing isn't something that is involuntary, like say Deadpool's or Wolverine's he can't regenerate entire limbs. He can only reattach his limbs, and I doubt he would get the time when fighting 3 opponents as fast as him.

TBH, he doesn't need the healing factor. You haven't shown any feats for the M3 that suggest they could get past Mel's Multi-Mountain+ Durability.

On the M3's durability

You seem to put Mel's attack potency in the mountain-multi mountain range, so my goal in this section is to prove the M3's durability and damage soak is at that level.

Which is impossible, i'm afraid.

Who was the one that said again that split durability is not a thing?

Now, now. What i said was

"Split Durability isn't a thing unless specifically stated or shown otherwise"

Both of these apply to Luffy, so....

Luffy is completely immune to blunt force, hence he is completely immune to cutting attacks as well and Mel loses by default :P

Ummmm, no.

No Kuma's Ursus Shock compresses a large amount of air into a very small bubble, and releases the entire air as a tremendously destructive shockwave.

" Tremendously Destructive"

> Fails to one-shot Oars

> Fails to one-shot pre-skip M3

> Does only City-Block level damage

Said blast of pressurized air covered the entirety of Thriller Bark (which is a ship as large as an island) and one shotted everyone on it, except Zoro and Sanji.

Yeah, but it didn't destroy nearly everything on the Island, looking at the tree's etc. It looks like it got weaker over distance. It only destroyed a few of those Buildings, then got significantly weaker. Really, the AOE damage it did was only City-Block level, though the attack did spread across the Island, it got weaker.

The destruction shown looks to be City-Block+ level, nowhere near Mel's Multi-Mountain level potency.

The span of Ursus Shock is better presented in this scan.

Cool.

As you can see, it not only devastated Thriller Bark entirely, but even went beyond that and rocked the surrounding ocean.

It didn't "devastate Thriller Bark entirely". Tree's were still standing and the damage shown was only City-Block level.

Zoro and Sanji tanked this attack after all the damage they has already taken from fighting Oars and throughout the arc in general. That's some seriously impressive durability.

It's some impressive Damage Soak, we already know they have City-Block level durability.

So you agree that Zoro can stand up to Mel's attacks? Good, one down, two to go, for those keeping count.

I agree he won't get destroyed in one hit. 2 should do it though.

So let's see a few feats for Sanji.

To start off, he tanked Ursus Shock, which is a big blunt durability showing in itself.

Well, if i go along with your Split Durability stuff, you'll have to show energy and cutting durability, because those are what Mel uses.

Another really cool feat of blunt durability, is when being 10,000 meters below sea level barely affects his fighting ability, like at all.

Not only does he not even notice the enormous sea pressure, but casually oneshots some humongous demon.

No offence, but i'm not sure how that's supposed to help him against Multi-Mountain level attacks.

For cutting durability, he has tanked Doflamingo's 5 strings attack head on, and recovered very quickly.

He was clearly cut though and Doflamingo's strings have no feats coming even close to Meliodas, who has easily cut through Escanor.

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The same Esacnor that tanks this with no damage.

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If Sanji already bleeds from such a weak attack, he'll be one-shotted by Mel's Multi-Mountain slashes.

Doflamingo's strings slice through meteorites, steel structures etc, and this same attack took out Vice Admiral Smoker, a powerful character in his own right, for more than a whole day.

Nothing at all compared to Meliodas cutting Albion in a far weaker form and one-shotting Escanor, who can tank Mountain level cutting attacks with little to no damage. And these things made Sanji bleed? RIP.

As for energy durability, well, Sanji's main form of offense is generating intensely hot, reentry level+ flames, and coming out entirely unscathed.

Proof they even effect him?

He has also tanked Enel's "God Judgement", which is a massive bolt of lightning, with no lasting damage to his body.

He was one-shotted. Also, feats for that Bolt that put it anywhere near Mel's Multi-Mountain level energy attacks? (They don't exist)

And the best part is that he is not even KO'd instantly.

Mate, if he's getting Ko'ed by that level of energy attacks in the first place, Mel's Multi-MOUNTAIN level attacks will one-shot all of the M3.

Sanji has more than enough raw durability and damage soak in all three departments, blunt, cutting and energy to withstand Mel's attacks.

No. He gets hurt by Doffy's strings(<<< Mel's cutting attacks) and Enel's lightning bolts(<<<<<< Mel's energy attacks), he's getting one-shotted.

Another out of context argument. Cracker could cut him yes, but the reason for that isn't because of Cracker's strength, but because Cracker has stronger haki than Luffy.

Which equates to more power than Luffy, something Meliodas also has.

Let's not forget that G4 has withstood Doffy's full power kicks (which can slice through buildings just by air pressure), and his best string based cutting attacks.

Boi, cutting through Buildings with a shockwave is a BoS Mel level feat, who has done the same with an entire Hill.

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Current Mel is so much more impressive than that it's not even funny. You'll have to show better feats to prove Luffy won't get 2 shotted...

Doffy's strings are so incredibly tough that not even people like Zoro or Fujitora could cut through his Bird Cage, and his strings can pierce Jozu's Diamond tough skin.

Mel has multi-mountain level cutting attacks, which is so far above Doffy's silly strings, you'll have to do better.

For that matter, Luffy even in base has tanked multiple string based cutting attacks from Doffy and kept on fighting.

But he clearly took damage and Mel's cutting attacks are >> Doffy's based on feats.

So, no, I don't believe Mel will find it very easy cutting through Luffy's haki.

He won't just cut through his Haki, but Luffy himself.

Gear 4

The question here is whether or not Luffy will use G4 immediately if he doesn't know of Mel's power level.

He won't and will subsequently take the one-shot.

I say its very likely, because one of the uses of Observation Haki is estimating your opponent's strength, as explained by Rayleigh.

Ok, but Luffy has never demonstrated this, thus we shouldn't just assume he has it.

Rayleigh uses Haki to estimate the number of beasts stronger than Luffy.

Yeah, but Rayleigh's Haki is >> the M3's, so you'll have to show feats for the M3 specifically doing this.

All 3 are proficient Haki users, so they can immediately gauge how big of a threat Mel is.

Well, Rayleigh could, but you've provided no evidence the M3 could.

Well, it was also done by a nearly haki depleted Luffy (haki is very important for G4),

Doesn't matter, it was still his most powerful attack, the level of haki shouldn't matter as long as he's still in G4. Unless you ca prove that KKG was weaker than it is usually is, it wasn't.

had to overpower Doflamingo's God Thread and Spider's Web simultaneously (his strongest offensive and defensive techniques respectively.

Impressive.

Spider's Web has no sold attacks from Trafalgar Law and Luffy's Elephant Gatling), and the bulk of the impact was absorbed by Doffy himself.

Both of whom are merely City- level.

Also just the indirect impact of Doffy colliding was enough to fold an enormous chunk of the ground and lift it miles into the air.

Lmao at Miles, when Luffy was still above the debris and it wasn't nearly as high as the birdcage.

That's >>>>> simply destroying the buildings in a city block,

Of course and i never denied that. But the fact is, nothing you've shown proves this attack is anything above Multi-City-Mountain level, which Meliodas can comfortably no-sell, as i have shown multiple times!

and for that matter better than any dc feat you have shown for Mel as well.

Meliodas destroying a hill with a twig in his weakest form is just as good, when you do the scaling.

Meliodas one-shotting Escanor is undoubtedly better.

Its probably not truly island lvl yet, but make no mistake, a direct KKG from a fresh Luffy would have done a lot of damage all over Dressrosa

Probably yeah, but as it was never done, we have to rely on scaling, which puts the attack at Multi-City-Mountain level, which isn't enough to significantly damage Meliodas as he has no-sold attacks on that level from Escanor.

This means that Luffy's strongest attack is the only one that will be able to do any damage to Meliodas and it sure as hell won't be able to put him down.

Like the Crocodile feat, again it was explicitly pointed out several times how Luffy was on his last dregs of haki and barely able to stand considering how G4 taxes his body. So your point is moot.

But he was clearly in G4 and was clearly using his most powerful attack, so you'll have to prove that KKG was weaker than usual.

I disagree, I think G4 is blatantly faster than Mel.

Don't push your luck.

Apart from reacting to Gilthunder's lightning, everything from there relies on stacked scaling, which would put Mel several tiers above lightning timing level.

While this is true, the scaling is undoubtedly valid and, considering Luffy's best speed feat is also the lightning one, you'll have to prove Luffy's speed scales anywhere as high as Mel's, who.......

blitzed a character, who blitzed Estarossa, who blitzed a weaker Mel, who blitzed Galan, who blitzed BoS Meliodas who was lightning+ speed.

But so are Supernova lvl characters like the M3 and Law, via scaling from Enis Lobby and Skypiea, and in fact they have a lot more quantifiable feats than Mel .

Yet none of them compare to the lightning feat, which is undoubtedly their best feat. So now it's up to you to prove the M3 scales anywhere near as much as Mel, which you can't.

Doflamingo had no problem keeping up with or even outspeeding the likes of Law, Sanji or G2 Luffy.

While it's true that Doflamingo was very much on G2's level of speed, IMO he was slightly slower. Luffy hit him several times in that form, without to much trouble.

This same Doflamingo was utterly trashed by G4, and don't forget that Doffy is a proficient precognition user as well, unlike Mel.

Doffy doesn't scale nearly as well as Mel though.

I am not convinced that Mel is even faster than Doflamingo tbh, let alone G4.

Prove Doflamingo is 5 levels of blitzing above lightning speed, or even significantly above it.

Meliodas should be atleast equal to G4 in speed, he just scales way better than Luffy.

Observation Haki

I can't exaggerate how annoying this will make for Mel to tag the M3.

His speed advantage easily cancels it out tbh.

You sort of already conceded this point, but I can't help posting one of the coolest feats from the current arc.

Go ahead.

Sanji repeatedly dodges Katakuri's Jelly Bean shots.

Cool, i guess. What speed feats does Katakuri's shots have that makes this impressive?

Katakuri is one of Big Mom's Sweet Commanders and his own CoO is so potent that it allows him to see a few seconds into the future. He is dominating G2 Luffy physically in the latest chapter.

Ok, but how fast are his shots, apart from "really fast"?

Honestly, durability wise, Sanji was the one you had the best chance of putting down quickly.

If you mean that he will be one-shotted, yes.

But seeing his level of CoO, I doubt Mel is tagging him with any ease, if at all.

First off, Mel's speed advantage will negate the CoO. Secondly, when has haki ever helped Sanji against someone = or < to himself in speed? Thirdly, Mel can just use an AOE darkness attack that Sanji can't dodge, so....

Haki isnt gonna be that much of a factor here, besides, who's to say Sanji wouldn't just try to block and get annihilated?

More Counters

Well, I hope this post was an epiphany of sorts for you.

I guess.

Nah, I don't think Mel's 30,000 clones would be enough to beat Zoro or Sanji. And G4 Luffy can two shot them easily.

Maybe not enough to beat them, but sure as hell enough to distract them for a few minutes, which is more than enough time for Mel to body Luffy, considering it would only take him one or 2 hits.

There's nothing to prove Mel's cutting power is higher than Doflamingo's best attacks, so no.

Yes, yes there is. Meliodas can one-shot Escanor, as i have shown above and in posts before, who has Mountain+ level durability in a weaker form. Prove Doffy's strings operate anywhere near that level, then we'll talk.

And just for the record, Luffy doesn't need G4 to defend against cutting attacks, he only needs his Armament Haki for that (can show scans of him tanking Doffy's strings in base form with nothing but haki if you want).

He's never blocked Multi-Mountain level slashes with it, so prove he can block Mel's, who could one-shot a guy with Mountain++ durability.

G4 just covers a large part of his body with haki.

Cool, he'll still get one-shotted.

Observation Haki.

Prove Luffy can use Haki like that? So far only Rayleigh has used Haki this way, who, coincidentally, is one of the strongest Haki users we've ever seen. Luffy didn't do this against Big Mom, or any of the guys who were stronger than him, so prove he can.

And it wouldn't take more than a single attack from Mel for Luffy to estimate his power level anyway.

Too bad one half serious attack from Mel would take Luffy's arm off or just straight up kill him.

Luffy can use Armament Haki to block Mel's first cutting attack,

Prove his armament Haki can tank Multi-Mountain level attacks?

and then go G4 right away. But he should realistically use G4 from the start once he gauges Mel's level by haki.

Please show him doing that ever?

Mel is no match for G4 Luffy in grappling strength.

Doesn't matter as Zoro and Sanji aren't nearly strong enough to even scratch Meliodas based on feats.

G4 Luffy is the only person so far in the series who has ripped through Doflamingo's Parasite String on panel.

Cool.

To put this in perspective, Diamond Jozu, one of Whitebeard's commanders couldn't do so, and that guy ripped out and threw a freaking mountain sized iceberg,

*sigh*

> Mountain sized

> Houses clearly only around 1/3rd to 1/4th the size of the ice block.

This proves Jozu has City-Block level strength, congrats, that's at the level of BoS Mel at best.

which still remains one of the best lifting/grappling strength feats in the series to this day.

To bad that's worse than the Baste Dungeon feat then.

It doesn't cover Mel's entire body though, so he would still be cut by Zoro's mountain spanning strikes.

Wut? He'll just block were Zoro slashes, making his attack stop there.

Or he can be engulfed in flames by Sanji's Hell Memories technique. What heat resistance feats does this armor have?

Meliodas can no sell that, he already no-sold Escanors flames, which are >> normal fire, as proven above.

Zoro has other good AoE attacks as well, like his Tatsumaki, which is a huge tornado that can cut through steel like fruit.

Mountain+ level feats for this technique, else it isn't harming Mel, or will just be regenerated.

These AoE techniques would cut up Mel where he's exposed and keep him at bay.

They don't have the feats to suggest they can hurt Mel, who has no-sold Mountain+ cutting power with his bare hand without a scratch.

Decapitation or head shots should still drop him.

True, but no one on the team has the feats to suggest they can decapitate Mel.

Demon Form

A disclaimer: Last I checked this used to rob Mel of his sanity and is not at all in character for him.

Not like that anymore.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Is that changed now, and can you show some scans of Mel resorting to this straightaway in a random encounter?

He's currently permanently in Demon form(Assault Mode) anyway, so this doesn't even matter.

Also does this form have any durability feats of its own?

Huh? It's basically just a better version of his base form.(more powerful, durable, etc.)

Also, yeah, there's this:

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Also can the clones use this form?

Don't see why not. It's just a "technique" of his that he can permanently activate at will(other Demons always have it active) and Mel's clones can use his other magic's, like Full Counter, just fine.

No Caption Provided

Those are all just surface cuts though. Can it regenerate from a clean decapitation? Zoro cleaved the mountain sized Pica in half with a casual slash, his cutting power is exponentially larger than King's.

No, it can't, but Zoro isn't capable of doing that much damage to Meliodas anyway.

From what I can see, Zoro's cutting power is enough to mince him like cheese. You haven't really shown too many cutting durability feats for Mel, and he has taken damage from far weaker characters like Gilthunder for example.

Refer to Escanor feat above, which allows him to no-sell any of Zoro's cutting attacks.

And what about heat based attacks? Can Mel regenerate from Sanji's Hell Memories burning off his skin? Luffy packs heat based attacks too, like Red Hawk for example.

The other Escanor feat.

Observation haki

Totally forgot about that, lol.

These are indeed impressive feats of dc, but again I ask, how in character is this for Mel in a random encounter?

Well, he used them against all opponents that verified it.

He used against Guila(Vampire) in a random encounter, against Galan when they first fought and busted the Kingdom with it when he got pissed. He'll use it when he needs it.

Also I think Sanji has shown at least enough energy durability to take a few of these blasts (tanking Enel's strongest attack, using Diable Jambe, which covers his entire body in flames, etc).

Neither of which compare remotely to the Mountain-Multi-Mounatian level feats i have shown for Mel's darkness. Honestly, if you don't show some better Energy Resistance feats for the M3, i'd be inclined to say this attack one-shots all 3 of them.

This I disagree with. Both G4 Luffy and Sanji are capable of flight, and Sanji in particular is insanely fast with his "Skywalk" technique, while G4 Luffy flew the length of a city so fast that he was FTE to Doflamingo.

There's no way they'll realise what's going, and fly multiple mountain's worth of range before Mel use this attack, that's not IC for them, nor to they have feats suggesting they could.

That combined with their precog, and Mel's own inability to fly means they should be able to keep out of Mel's energy blasts' range.

They ain't getting like 10 km away before Mel attacks them, lol, they ain't that fast.

Also, Mel sure as hell can fly.

No Caption Provided

That leaves Zoro, but his energy durability is just as good as Sanji's and he has the best pain tolerance of the 3 by far. And he has his own AoE techniques to trouble Mel.

Then show me the feats. Show me energy durability feats for Zoro, Luffy or Sanji that are in the Multi-Mountain level range that would be required to tank Mel's darkness attacks. Else they get one-shotted.

Conclusion

  • Mel is just as fast as the M3
  • Mel is far stronger than the M3
  • Mel can tank their hits
  • Mel can one-shot them with a slash(atleast Luffy)
  • Mel can one-shot all 3 of them with an AOE darkness attack
  • Mel bodies them
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#42 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso my final post is up. When do ya think you'l get yours up, so i know when to go into voting? Also, how do you want to do the votes? First to 5, close votes after 5 days etc.?

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#43 Edited by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: Nice one. I will probably get my final post up next week. Really need to get a post in the Toriko vs Jin CaV first.

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#44 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: so, could ya please finish this?

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#45 Posted by Chronicplane (2401 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V, this is going swell.

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#46 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: pretty please finish this? If not/ you don't respond in a few days i'll open it for votes.

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#47 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2647 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: oh, just realised how that sounded. What i meant was that if you didn't respond at all and just ignored my questions.

But when do you want to have it done?

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#49 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by shirso (1681 posts) - - Show Bio