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#1 Posted by Bahumat (587 posts) - - Show Bio

The M.O.N team (Joewell911)

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vs

Guts (Bahumat)

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Location:

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Rules:

Standard gear

M.O.N team get's 15 minutes of prep and Smith's help.

Morals on but determined to win via incap.

Start 25m away, but should they choose to, the M.O.N can repostion themselves during prep.

Civilians are fleeing.

Gut's has basic knowledge.

Tell me if I missed anything @joewell911

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#2 Edited by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@bahumat: Perfect! My post will be up in two or three hours.

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#3 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@bahumat: Are ya ready, Mr. Krabs?!

Introduction: MONster's New Law!

Be warned now, kiddos, this debate will most likely contain heavy nudity from my side. If you get offended by a little anime girl's butt, you should probably leave.

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Monster's Ops: Neutralization (Also called MONster's New Law or simply M.O.N.) is a squad of four demihuman monster-girls with training and powers used to bring down other species lawbreakers. Due to a loophole in the Intraspecies Protection Act, normal humans are unable to legally harm any non-human person, this includes police trying to arrest dangerous criminals. To get past this problem, the agent Smith created a team of combat ready monster-girls who can bring down those who abuse the protection laws. And so, M.O.N. was born!

Sick Theme:

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The Commander: Zombina

Best girl right here! (Other than Papi, of course.)
Best girl right here! (Other than Papi, of course.)

Zombina is the first member of the team and, as you can probably tell from the name, she's a zombie. A former human who was resurrected by a disease. More info on the subspecies here~

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Being a zombie grants her immortality and a complete immunity to pain. She can be shot, stabbed, disarmed, or blown apart, but she won't ever feel a thing. This allows her to play it dangerous and get close to enemies who can tear her up, because she knows she can just be patched up after the Ops.

She often wields two small submachine guns (PP-2000s to be exact.) that she uses in a sort of "Spray and Pray" method. Fire at the enemy until they go down, you know? It'll take them out eventually, and if it doesn't then she always has her teammate Manako for the more precise shooting.

The Sniper: Manako

Eye think you get the picture.
Eye think you get the picture.

Manako is a monoeye with a knack for shooting. She plays the sniper role of the team and usually stays out of close range, because of her more fragile nature.

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Due to her one large eye, she has amazingly acute sight and accuracy. From over two kilometers away, she can accurately hit small targets such as guns without using a scope. Along with that, she seems to be rather fast and endurable, being able to clear 2kms in just three or so minutes while carrying her large gun.

Speaking of her gun, it's a CheyTec Intervention M200, a powerful sniper rifle. Even after 2kms the bullets still have enough power to shatter enemies guns.

Sorry for the awful quality, but it's all that's available for me to make gifs from.
Sorry for the awful quality, but it's all that's available for me to make gifs from.

Imagine getting that to the head!

The Muscle: Tionishia

You like 'em big? How about 7'5
You like 'em big? How about 7'5" and can crush your head like a grape?

Tio is an ogre who's packin' heat. Her guns? Lefty and righty, baby!

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Obviously, Tio is strong. I'd put her solidly in the 1-2 ton range at lowest. She can bust through walls like butter and throw a vending machine with ease.

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She wears heavy combat armor and uses two huge shield/barricades to crush her enemies to paste. Truly, she's a smashing gal.

Infiltrator: Doppel

Who needs clothes when you have prehensile hair?
Who needs clothes when you have prehensile hair?

They call her Doppel, but her real name can't be pronounced by humans. She's a shapeshifter who uses her hair to take on the form of anything she wishes.

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Along with simple shapeshifting she can also defend herself with her hair, which is as hard as iron. It can be used as clothes, limbs, or other constructs. Physically, she's not too bad either. She's strong and flexible enough to one-shot an ogre (Who are bulletproof) with a kick and has the reactions to dodge gunfire from Zombina.

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She doesn't use any weapons other than straight up manipulation and acting, but usually that's enough. She can quickly trick her opponents into a vulnerable situation where either she or her team can get the drop on them.

And that's all she wrote. I'll give a basic outline of the plan and end this.

Tactics and the Fight

With 15 minutes prep and help from Smith, they'll be able to basically replay the plan against the Ogres in the shop.

  1. Manako will get far away with her sniper at ready.
  2. Zombina and Tio will get behind cover and out of sight.
  3. Doppel will change into someone who can appeal to Guts. A little girl or something.

When the fight begins, the following will happen.

  1. Doppel will approach Guts in an innocent form and ask for help. With all the panic and people scurrying, a little girl asking for help shouldn't raise to much suspicion. I'm not too keen on Guts' morals, but most would be willing to at least see what she has to say.
  2. She'll lead him into an open area where Manako has good sight on him, then she'll kick him or something. This should stun him for long enough for Manako to fire at him. I assume he's a bullet timer, but to sniper bullets he's not expecting? It might be harder.
  3. If he survives that, Tio and Zombina will ambush him. Zombina will shoot at him while Tio throws things. They'll all stay out of the range of his sword for as long as possible. Manako will still be taking shots at him to help when she can. Eventually, he should be filled with enough lead to go down.
  4. If this doesn't work, then Zombina will go operation suicide. She'll run in to get as close as possible while firing her guns. The close proximity and the rapidness of the bullets should make it much harder dodge or deflect. Now this'll probably get her cut in half, but she should do heavy damage to Guts and she knows she can be patched up, so it's all good.
  5. The now near death Guts should be able to be taken out by Tio's, Doppel's, and Manako's combined assault.

Guts is a beast, but that's exactly what the girls are meant to take out. Their advantage in numbers along with high levels of skill and versatile powers should allow them to overcome the slight physical barriers they're facing.

Plus, is Guts really gonna kill this?

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#4 Posted by Jonez_ (11445 posts) - - Show Bio

Dios mio...

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#5 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonez_ said:

Dios mio...

Problem? ^_^

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#6 Posted by Bahumat (587 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell911: Have to admit they're more impressive than I would've guessed.

Let's start with the most important question.

Plus, is Guts really gonna kill this?

Pssh, Gut's was ready to kill a sexy lady that transformed into a demon mid-sex. This'll be easy for him.

Intro: Guts

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Guts, that one guy who murders demons, humans, and everything in between. He wields a swords bigger than he is and constantly does dangerous stuff. Yeah.

Some theme I guess

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Let's start with the basics, Guts is strong enough to swing his several hundred kilograms sword at FTE speeds.

Guts is strong enough to match Wylad in a sword fight, someone who punched falling boulders into tiny pieces.

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He also takes hits from Wylad in a vastly stronger form, who's essentially a 5ish meter tall giant.

Sword Strength

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The water serpent is capable of spewing water fast enough to slice ships in half.

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He blocks it with his sword, this thing is durable.

With Berserk Armor, he's strong enough to knock back a giant apostle wearing several tons of gear, he destroys his Cannonball-proof shield, cracks his Corundum skin, and stops his massive tail.

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Reflexes

He's capable of casually blocking arrows, spears flung with the power of a cannon (Meaning it must have been incredibly fast) with enough speed that it knocks him several feet back, and water moving fast enough to kill humans.

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All of them are surprise attacks.

Speed

Crosses 50-100ish meters in order to blitz a group of demons.

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Also has "regen" when his berserk armor is activated.

Tactics

1. Guts goes around searching for his enemies while staying in cover (Basic knowledge of a sniper).

a. If he meets Tio, he is more than capable of blitzing and bisecting her. She seems like some of the apostles he's defeated except slower.

b. If he meets Zombina, it's the same except he smashes her heart and head, and also removes her limbs. She could get a few shots in, but he's had far worse.

c. If he meets Doppel, she's probably cloaked as someone else so he ignores her until she attacks him. Even if her hair is as strong as steel, he should have no problem in cutting through it and he's fast enough to react to a surprise attack.

2. If he meets them all together it'll be a bit tougher. He's still much faster than them (except for Doppel) and blitzing people is his most common attack.

3. Now he starts running around trying to search for Manako, he's fast enough to dodge her intial shots, especially if she's far away. Then it just comes down to him sprinting towards her uing his sword as a shield, and she doesn't look very adept and close quarters combat.

Counters

Guts has basic info so this is the most basic I can think of.

Tio: Super strong Ogre.

Zombina: Nigh-immortal zombie with guns.

Manako: Highly accurate cyclops with a sniper.

Doppel: Shape shifter with prehensile hair.

Doppel will approach Guts in an innocent form and ask for help. With all the panic and people scurrying, a little girl asking for help shouldn't raise to much suspicion. I'm not too keen on Guts' morals, but most would be willing to at least see what she has to say.

Problem with this is that Guts knows that there's a shape shifter, and though he isn't a terribly terrible person, he's still willing to let innocent people die to accomplish his goals. I doubt he's going to just attack everyone, but he's not going to follow her.

She'll lead him into an open area where Manako has good sight on him, then she'll kick him or something. This should stun him for long enough for Manako to fire at him. I assume he's a bullet timer, but to sniper bullets he's not expecting? It might be harder.

If for some reason he follows Doppel, he still knows that there's a highly accurate sniper somewhere, so that's he's going to be very suspicious about being led into an open area and he'll just attack/ignore Doppel.

If he survives that, Tio and Zombina will ambush him. Zombina will shoot at him while Tio throws things. They'll all stay out of the range of his sword for as long as possible. Manako will still be taking shots at him to help when she can. Eventually, he should be filled with enough lead to go down.

In that scenario, he's going to realize he needs to go Berserk.

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They're going to have to blow his body apart if he does, which will be a little difficult, especially since he's not just going to stand there and take the hits.

If this doesn't work, then Zombina will go operation suicide. She'll run in to get as close as possible while firing her guns. The close proximity and the rapidness of the bullets should make it much harder dodge or deflect. Now this'll probably get her cut in half, but she should do heavy damage to Guts and she knows she can be patched up, so it's all good.

You forget, his sword doubles as a shield. Unless she has bullseye level accuracy (where she rebounds every bullet to swarm him), all he needs to do is hold his sword in front of him.

The now near death Guts should be able to be taken out by Tio's, Doppel's, and Manako's combined assault.

Berserk armor will make it seem like he's much better than in peak condition. The damage won't matter because it's supporting his wounds.

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#7 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@bahumat: Not bad, friendo. How many rounds we doing?

Swag Level: 9001
Swag Level: 9001

Round Two: Counters

Pssh, Gut's was ready to kill a sexy lady that transformed into a demon mid-sex. This'll be easy for him.

Woah, really? A truly indomitable will.

Can I get these scan for uh, research?

:P Kidding

Stats

Guts is strong enough to match Wylad in a sword fight, someone who punched falling boulders into tiny pieces.

So Wylad seems about as powerful as Tio, but less attractive. As of right now, I'd say Guts and Tio are around equal and both are above everyone else.

He's capable of casually blocking arrows, spears flung with the power of a cannon (Meaning it must have been incredibly fast) with enough speed that it knocks him several feet back, and water moving fast enough to kill humans.

While this is impressive, none of them are equal to bullet timing. Until you can show me some reactions that are at least in the mach 2 level (Actually much more, as a sniper rifle bullet moves faster than that of other guns. But I'll cut you some slack.), I just see him getting sniped by Manako or filled with lead by Zombina right off the bat.

Crosses 50-100ish meters in order to blitz a group of demons.

This is impressive, but it I'd put Manako on the same level in simple travel speed. She traveled a mile in just three minutes, while carrying her big gun.

Also has "regen" when his berserk armor is activated.

Now this will be useful, because he will be taking tons of damage.

But eventually, there'll be nothing to replace.

Oh, and can the Berserker armor heal brain wounds? Because with Manako on the sniper he'll certainly be taking some.

Guts stats are good, but one of the girls can match him in every area.

In strength, Tio is his equal. In travel speed we have Manako and in reflexes we have Doppel. Zombina is even better with durability and endurance, since she doesn't feel pain at all. So against all the girls combined, they should definitely be able to overpower him.

Tactics

1. Guts goes around searching for his enemies while staying in cover (Basic knowledge of a sniper).

a. If he meets Tio, he is more than capable of blitzing and bisecting her. She seems like some of the apostles he's defeated except slower.

b. If he meets Zombina, it's the same except he smashes her heart and head, and also removes her limbs. She could get a few shots in, but he's had far worse.

c. If he meets Doppel, she's probably cloaked as someone else so he ignores her until she attacks him. Even if her hair is as strong as steel, he should have no problem in cutting through it and he's fast enough to react to a surprise attack.

2. If he meets them all together it'll be a bit tougher. He's still much faster than them (except for Doppel) and blitzing people is his most common attack.

3. Now he starts running around trying to search for Manako, he's fast enough to dodge her intial shots, especially if she's far away. Then it just comes down to him sprinting towards her uing his sword as a shield, and she doesn't look very adept and close quarters combat.

Because of prep, neither a or b will happen until c has and he's been led into an ambush. But I'd like to counter them anyways because a fight will happen between at some point (It'll just be all at once.)

  • Doesn't he struggle a bit with those "Apostles"? I've never seen Berserk, but they sound like boss fight kind of guys. Anyways, I wouldn't call Tio slow, she's a lot faster than normal humans.
This is her casual run while dragging someone.
This is her casual run while dragging someone.
  • With her armor and gauntlets, I don't see her being one-shotted either. It'd take 4-5 at least to get through each shield, the armor, then actually slash her.
  • I don't think it'll be that easy. In order to even get close, he'll have to run through dozens of bullets. Since you've shown no bullet timing feats for Guts, I'm going to assume he can't do it (Especially not to automatic gunfire.). So he'll have to rush at someone against constant gunfire, already taking heavy damage, and once he actually does get close enough and stabs her or what not, she won't even go down. His typical blitz move (The one you showed.) involves a stab to the gut, but this wouldn't even phase Zombina. She'd gun continue firing, now an inch away from his face. Honestly, Zombina could take this on her own.
  • More on Doppel below, but it won't be that easy.

Meeting them all together is what will happen in reality, since that's what will be planed. And it won't go well. He'd struggle with each on their own, all at once and I doubt he's doing much than being a bullet sponge. Blitzing Doppel won't happen due to her reactions, Tio is unlikely because of her speed, and Zombina will just gun him down while he's trying.

You haven't shown that he's fast enough to dodge a sniper bullet he doesn't know the location of. The sword is large but it doesn't cover him all, Manako can still aim for the locations not covered (Legs, arms, sides, etc.)

This'll be especially hard while actually in combat. Dodging the sniper bullets while also trying to take out "ground team" will be next to impossible for Guts. I just don't see him doing it.

Your tactics aren't very valid because of prep+Doppel manipulation. And once they fight all at once Guts simply isn't winning.

Counters

Problem with this is that Guts knows that there's a shape shifter, and though he isn't a terribly terrible person, he's still willing to let innocent people die to accomplish his goals. I doubt he's going to just attack everyone, but he's not going to follow her.

I know he knows, but is he really cruel enough to deny a cute little anime girl help? Especially one as good as Doppel, who was able to trick her entire team into not suspecting her for a prank.

I see it going something like this:

Doppel walks over disguised as a little girl, amongst all the panic this shouldn't be that abnormal. She'll ask Guts for help finding her parents, turn on the tears, and tell him she thinks they went that way (With that way being somewhere in the open.) and ask him to come along and help her. If you really think Guts would turn this down, I'd like some proof.

If for some reason he follows Doppel, he still knows that there's a highly accurate sniper somewhere, so that's he's going to be very suspicious about being led into an open area and he'll just attack/ignore Doppel.

The art of misdirection. If all goes to plan, Doppel can, with some good acting and a cute form, make Guts believe going out in the open is worth it.

If he is proven to have the morals to ignore her, then she'll just kick him in the face and run. That should get him chasing, which will end him up in the open regardless.

In that scenario, he's going to realize he needs to go Berserk.

They're going to have to blow his body apart if he does, which will be a little difficult, especially since he's not just going to stand there and take the hits.

Does he usually just go Berserk like that? Before the fight even starts?

It wouldn't be thaat hard. Zombina, Tio, and Doppel will go for disabling limbs and generally weakening him. Those machine guns would tear him up, and the large things Tio could throw would be great for distracting him. Manako would be going for headshots from afar in the meantime. She'll land one eventually, considering he's dealing with 3 other people and trying to dodge an attack that's A. faster than anything he's ever reacted to and B. out of sight. Once they all ambush, it's a sure fire win.

You forget, his sword doubles as a shield. Unless she has bullseye level accuracy (where she rebounds every bullet to swarm him), all he needs to do is hold his sword in front of him.

Perfect. And while his sword is being used there, Manako will snipe him. He moves his sword and he gets a machine gun to the everywhere, he doesn't and a sniper bullet will crack his brain open. Easy win.

Berserk armor will make it seem like he's much better than in peak condition. The damage won't matter because it's supporting his wounds.

But it'll run out eventually. And it can't heal brain wounds (Until you prove otherwise.)

Your turn!

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#8 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Edited by Bahumat (587 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell911:Sorry for the late response, been busy.

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Woah, really? A truly indomitable will.

Can I get these scan for uh, research?

Sure, I found many things in this scan that required research ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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Stats

So Wylad seems about as powerful as Tio, but less attractive. As of right now, I'd say Guts and Tio are around equal and both are above everyone else.

I can agree with that.

While this is impressive, none of them are equal to bullet timing. Until you can show me some reactions that are at least in the mach 2 level (Actually much more, as a sniper rifle bullet moves faster than that of other guns. But I'll cut you some slack.), I just see him getting sniped by Manako or filled with lead by Zombina right off the bat.

He never dodges bullets (because this is in the middle ages), but the javelin he blocked was moving at least as fast as a cannonball (He said it had the force of a cannonball, which I think black powder cannons can reach speeds of 300ish m/s, and a Javelin lacks the mass of a cannonball), possibly faster considering even after deflecting it, it maintained it's momentum and bounced off several walls behind them.

They were also in a dark tunnel, so he could only see 3ish meters in front of him. If it was as fast as a cannonball, that'd give him 9.85 milliseconds to react.

Zombina's gun looks like a PP-2000 so that's 300 - 400ish m/s. Dodgeable, but she could land hits considering it's automatic.

Manako's gun looks like (IDK a Barret?) which moves at 853 m/s. So unless it's at point blank, he could react (at a 9 meter distance it would be similar to his reaction time).

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Here's him dodging some lightning. Will never use this though.

This is impressive, but it I'd put Manako on the same level in simple travel speed. She traveled a mile in just three minutes, while carrying her big gun.

Even if you doubled that, it would only be 40 mph (which is fast yeah, but no where near blitzing someone from a 50-100 meter distance).

Now this will be useful, because he will be taking tons of damage.

But eventually, there'll be nothing to replace.

Oh, and can the Berserker armor heal brain wounds? Because with Manako on the sniper he'll certainly be taking some.

No, he can't, but how's Manako's ability to hit moving targets? Tagging people from far away is impressive, but that's mostly based on visual clarity (She has really good eyesight), her skill with a gun, and background stuff like wind. Tagging someone who moves as a blur, fast enough to dodge attacks from dozens of trained knights, even going as fast as to make them hit each other, will be a lot different and rely on her reflexes and coordination.

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Second one is him moving so fast, someone could only tell that something might have passed by. That's a narrow window, and it's also 3ish meter up.

Tactics

Doesn't he struggle a bit with those "Apostles"? I've never seen Berserk, but they sound like boss fight kind of guys. Anyways, I wouldn't call Tio slow, she's a lot faster than normal humans.

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Pictured are apostles that he blitzed.

With her armor and gauntlets, I don't see her being one-shotted either. It'd take 4-5 at least to get through each shield, the armor, then actually slash her.

Any feats for her armor? Guts has sliced rooftops, pillars, armor 3x thicker than normal, giants, etc. in half

I don't think it'll be that easy. In order to even get close, he'll have to run through dozens of bullets. Since you've shown no bullet timing feats for Guts, I'm going to assume he can't do it (Especially not to automatic gunfire.). So he'll have to rush at someone against constant gunfire, already taking heavy damage, and once he actually does get close enough and stabs her or what not, she won't even go down.

He's not just going to run in a straight line (He normally does, but here they have guns, he's not a retard). He's also fast enough to cross whatever distance they have in less than a second, and he can at least aim dodge.

His typical blitz move (The one you showed.) involves a stab to the gut, but this wouldn't even phase Zombina. She'd gun continue firing, now an inch away from his face. Honestly, Zombina could take this on her own.

It's actually a dismembering attacks, he's slicing them in half vertically. Apostles are just durable.

Combine blitz with his tornado-like speed, and she'll be mince meat.

Meeting them all together is what will happen in reality, since that's what will be planed. And it won't go well. He'd struggle with each on their own, all at once and I doubt he's going much than being a bullet sponge.

I see him struggling with Doppel because of her speed, but that's about it.

Blitzing Doppel won't happen due to her reactions, Tio is unlikely because of her speed, and Zombina will just gun him down while he's trying.

Tio is running around at car cruising speeds which is still a lot lower than Gut's speed, who crossed a 50-100 meter distance faster than an Apostle could react. And preventing a blitz is based on reaction speed, if she can't react to Gut's, her running speed won't matter.

Zombina could land a few hits but the time frame is going to last less than a second, and he's going to be trying to aim dodge. He's going to dodge a few shots, get hit by a few shots (With some being deflected), and bisect Zombina. She doesn't have the accuracy to tag something moving as fast as he is (from what you've shown).

You haven't shown that he's fast enough to dodge a sniper bullet he doesn't know the location of. The sword is large but it doesn't cover him all, Manako can still aim for the locations not covered (Legs, arms, sides, etc.)

His instincts let him block an arrow that came from behind him while he was fighting a group of soldiers in his teens. Yes, arrows are slower than sniper rounds, but she's going to be farther away (meaning it'll give him a better chance to react) and there was also no way he could've known that someone was shooting arrows at him either. His instincts are just really good.

She's also far away, at a 30 meter distance it would be the same as him blocking an arrow 5 meters away.

This'll be especially hard while actually in combat. Dodging the sniper bullets while also trying to take out "ground team" will be next to impossible for Guts. I just don't see him doing it.

I can see your point, but he's not going to be staying out in the open. Tio/Zombina/Doppel can't do anything to force him to stay there.

Counters

I know he knows, but is he really cruel enough to deny a cute little anime girl help? Especially one as good as Doppel, who was able to trick her entire team into not suspecting her for a prank.

That's not exactly impressive. Just saying.

I see it going something like this:

Doppel walks over disguised as a little girl, amongst all the panic this shouldn't be that abnormal. She'll ask Guts for help finding her parents, turn on the tears, and tell him she thinks they went that way (With that way being somewhere in the open.) and ask him to come along and help her. If you really think Guts would turn this down, I'd like some proof.

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If anything he'll use her as bait. I doubt he'll kill her, but helping her isn't something he'd do unless she stayed with him for a few days and did stuff that got him to sympathize with her. Besides, this is someone he sympathized with.

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He was perfectly willing to kill Jill who did nothing wrong. He was also alright with murdering countless children who were turned into fairies.

If he is proven to have the morals to ignore her, then she'll just kick him in the face and run. That should get him chasing, which will end him up in the open regardless.

How fast can she run? And if it get's to that point, he's not going to stay there once they start firing.

Does he usually just go Berserk like that? Before the fight even starts?

No, it takes a second or two to go Berserk though, it's just putting on a helmet.

It wouldn't be thaat hard. Zombina, Tio, and Doppel will go for disabling limbs and generally weakening him. Those machine guns would tear him up, and the large things Tio could throw would be great for distracting him. Manako would be going for headshots from afar in the meantime. She'll land one eventually, considering he's dealing with 3 other people and trying to dodge an attack that's A. faster than anything he's ever reacted to and B. out of sight. Once they all ambush, it's a sure fire win.

SMG's aren't made for tearing people apart, they'll poke a lot of holes, but his armor is there to stop the bleeding/deflect some of the bullets. It's still enchanted armor, I won't call it bullet proof but it should be capable of deflecting some bullets that aren't at a 90 degree angle.

Perfect. And while his sword is being used there, Manako will snipe him. He moves his sword and he gets a machine gun to the everywhere, he doesn't and a sniper bullet will crack his brain open. Easy win.

You're assuming he's standing still, he's going to be moving around (You haven't shown how well they can tag a moving target), and again he's really fast.

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Pssh, Berserk Ogres are way sexier than either of those, but I'll admit Shrek is pretty close.

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#10 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@bahumat: So, this'll be my last round of counters. Then we'll move on to conclusions, seem ok?

Try not to bring in any new stuff in your next post.

Aren't they just the cutest wittle crime fighting agents you've ever seen?
Aren't they just the cutest wittle crime fighting agents you've ever seen?

Round 3: Final Counters

Sure, I found many things in this scan that required research ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Mm. Yes. Quite good. Lots of things here. To be researched.

Stats

Zombina's gun looks like a PP-2000 so that's 300 - 400ish m/s. Dodgeable, but she could land hits considering it's automatic.

I'd agree.

Manako's gun looks like (IDK a Barret?) which moves at 853 m/s. So unless it's at point blank, he could react (at a 9 meter distance it would be similar to his reaction time).

The thing is, he won't even know it'll be fired. Sure, he has his instincts, but he's in the middle of combat. Blocking Manako's rounds will be hard because Guts will have to take his attention off the ground team to do anything about them. That would leave him open to their attacks, so he'd go to block them again, which would leave him open to Manako once more. It's a cycle, and eventually he'll be weakened enough to end it with his death.

Here's him dodging some lightning. Will never use this though.

You:

  • *Uses scan*
  • "I'll never use this scan."

Seems legit.

But that scan is a huge outlier and you know it. As to not start a whole nother debate, can we just pretend it wasn't posted?

Even if you doubled that, it would only be 40 mph (which is fast yeah, but no where near blitzing someone from a 50-100 meter distance).

But Manako will already have a huge headstart from her sniping position. So in this fight, her speed should allow her to stay away from Guts just fine.

No, he can't, but how's Manako's ability to hit moving targets? Tagging people from far away is impressive, but that's mostly based on visual clarity (She has really good eyesight), her skill with a gun, and background stuff like wind. Tagging someone who moves as a blur, fast enough to dodge attacks from dozens of trained knights, even going as fast as to make them hit each other, will be a lot different and rely on her reflexes and coordination.

Surprisingly enough, she's never shot at a moving target. Look, the show is too busy with all the plot to have too many action scenes.

He won't constantly be in motion tho. Often times in battle he'll have to take a stop and defend against incoming attacks/just generally catch his breath and assess the situation. And that's when Manako will be able to kill him. BAM!

Tactics

Any feats for her armor? Guts has sliced rooftops, pillars, armor 3x thicker than normal, giants, etc. in half

Nope. But it looks very thick. And those gauntlets are just portable pillars on their on. Maybe 2-3, but I still don't see it being a one-shot with all that gear.

He's not just going to run in a straight line (He normally does, but here they have guns, he's not a retard). He's also fast enough to cross whatever distance they have in less than a second, and he can at least aim dodge.

He does that to other people with bows and cannons and stuff, right? Why would he change the strategy that's worked for him so well before now?

Would he even recognize Zombinia's weapons as guns? I don't think he'd realise what they are considering how different they look from the guns of his time. By the time he's like "Hey, maybe running directly at this person like I always do isn't a good idea.," He'll be full of holes and possibly dead.

Then he's just up close with his sword embedding in Zombinia as she blows his brains out from an inch away. The distance closing doesn't just give him an advantage, it also makes it completely impossible for him to dodge Zombina's gunfire. And since she'll be fine after the initial blitz, this it'll be a 100% chance of death for Guts once he gets close.

It's actually a dismembering attacks, he's slicing them in half vertically. Apostles are just durable.

Combine blitz with his tornado-like speed, and she'll be mince meat.

Yes. She will. But will she care? Not even a little.

She'll be cut all up, but Guts will also be full of holes. And who do you think will care more in the end?

Tio is running around at car cruising speeds which is still a lot lower than Gut's speed, who crossed a 50-100 meter distance faster than an Apostle could react. And preventing a blitz is based on reaction speed, if she can't react to Gut's, her running speed won't matter.

Zombina could land a few hits but the time frame is going to last less than a second, and he's going to be trying to aim dodge. He's going to dodge a few shots, get hit by a few shots (With some being deflected), and bisect Zombina. She doesn't have the accuracy to tag something moving as fast as he is (from what you've shown).

Fair enough.

It'll be more than a few. Those guns fired very fast. A few would happen with just a tap of the trigger. With her holding them down full force unleashing her whole clip on Guts, he'll be swiss cheese.

He doesn't have the ability to dodge at all once in close range. She'll be cut in half, but he'll have several dozen bullet wounds through his everything.

Accuracy isn't needed to shoot at someone bullrushing you. Especially unimportant with two fully automatic weapons.

Counters

That's not exactly impressive. Just saying.

Keeping people who have complete knowledge on all of your powers and personality out of the light on your whereabouts isn't impressive? How? I mean, if her own three teammates couldn't figure out what Doppel was doing, how can Guts?

He was perfectly willing to kill Jill who did nothing wrong. He was also alright with murdering countless children who were turned into fairies.

Savage, bruh. But he'll end up in the open regardless of whether he believes her or not.

How fast can she run? And if it get's to that point, he's not going to stay there once they start firing.

Peak human speed, I suppose. With her reactions and agility, she could get out of the range of his sword in the two or three seconds he's stunned.

He'll have no choice, really. If he goes back into cover, the girls won't follow him. He'll have to come back and fight eventually.

No, it takes a second or two to go Berserk though, it's just putting on a helmet.

Exactly. So I see him dying before it's fully employed.

SMG's aren't made for tearing people apart, they'll poke a lot of holes, but his armor is there to stop the bleeding/deflect some of the bullets. It's still enchanted armor, I won't call it bullet proof but it should be capable of deflecting some bullets that aren't at a 90 degree angle.

The point is, they'll hurt. And if Zombina aims for the head, it'll be game over.

You're assuming he's standing still, he's going to be moving around (You haven't shown how well they can tag a moving target), and again he's really fast.

He won't always be moving though, and not always at such speeds. And in those times, Guts will fall.

Pssh, Berserk Ogres are way sexier than either of those, but I'll admit Shrek is pretty close.

Hey! I don't think that's SFW, might have to flag your post.

:P

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#11 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Bahumat (587 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell911: Sorry I take so long ):

I'm pretty swamped in work I need to turn in. Should get it in by Friday I'm hoping.

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#13 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

@bahumat: It's fine, just making sure you don't forget!

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#14 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio