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#1 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio

Mirror Master

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Represented by: Lord Parallax

Monica Rambeau

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Represented by: NewWorldOrder

Rules

  • In-character
  • Characters usual morals apply
  • Fight can be won by KO, incapacitation or BFR
  • Random encounter
  • Standard gear
  • Fight takes place in an unpopulated city

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#2 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4504 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4504 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by jloneblackheart (7623 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd definitely like to read through this one. T4V

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#7 Posted by theawesomeflashSanDiego32 (1489 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#8 Posted by Warlockmage (4736 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord-parallax: which Mirror Master? i assume the one thats actually competent Mcculloch

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#9 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4504 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio

Monica Rambeau

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Monica Rambeau, the Avenger become Ultimate who has undergone plenty of name changes in her history. From Pulsar to Captain Marvel or from Photon to Spectrum. She has always been one of the fastest characters the Marvel universe ever displayed and most certainly one of the most versatile too. Monica not only brings her power to battle but her sheer tactical knowledge which has often brought her through troublesome battles and allowed her to accomplish things many would think impossible.

Powers

Monica possesses one of the most versatile power-sets the marvel universe has to offer thanks to her being bombarded with extra-dimensional energy. This energy would go on to allow her to change her form into anything in the electromagnetic spectrum. Just so an idea of what forms she can alter her body to become, here is a good amount of them which she focuses on.

  • Photons
  • Electricity
  • Microwaves
  • Radiowaves
  • Gamma rays
  • X-Rays
  • Ultraviolet radiation
  • Infrared radiation
  • And more

As you can see, Monica can transform into quite a lot and there is more I've left out. This has an will always make Monica an extremely versatile character who is prepared to combat multiple situations. I'm not sure how much she'll have to utilize in this battle because my knowledge on Mirror Master is limited, however, I do think she change forms to a good amount of these in order to take him on. The real question will be how will Evan fare against the speed and versatility she brings to the battle because though he fights Flashes, there is usually context in how they use their speed, not to mention none of them have the power-set Monica brings here.

Leaving that aside, let's get into some of the things Monica accomplished while taking on some of the electromagnetic Spectrum. A great place to start at would be Monica explaining how fast becoming these spectrums can make her. She makes it clear that moving at the speed of light isn't an issue in the slightest to her. Becoming photons isn't the only thing that moves at light-speed, X-Ray, Microwaves, and Gamma-Rays. Mighty Avengers Vol 2. #1

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So as you can see, I've established the top speed Monica can move at from the beginning of the debate because I feel it's going to be a crucial part of the debate as a whole. I know there is going to be some back and forth on can Evan keep up with her speed, so I wanted to bring forth her best from now. Speed isn't the only thing Monica has I've stated above, she has plenty of other things that's going to be needed in order to take down Evan. I don't think I really need to prove that Monica can harm Evan seeing as how it should be pretty much a given with her power-set, not to mention most of the Rogues aren't really durable in the first place. Personally, I think any of her attacks should be capable of laying Evan out flat, but it more so has to do with his reaction speed. I mean, I think a Microwave blast should be capable of getting the job done if it lands. Nextwave: Agents Of H.A.T.E #5

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I bargain it's not as fast as light, which is how fast Monica can move so if she got up close and blasted him I don't think there is much he could do to prevent it. Giving him the benefit of the doubt seeing as how you haven't made a case for him yet, there is always the fact that she can blast a large area to where he won't have any hope of dodging. There is a difference between reaction speed and travel speed, and to dodge an area of an effect attack, he's going to need travel speed. Just because he could dodge the initial blast, doesn't mean he can get out of the range in time, in which he would be in the complete middle of the blast zone. Not a good place to be. In Nextwave: Agents Of H.A.T.E #6, she released an omnidirectional blast of Gamma-Rays.

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Something that should be noted is that Monica primarily relies on her light form in fights, which isn't really helpful for who she's up against. For starters, she is essentially intangible in this form, so no physical attacks can even harm her as she's pure light. Take Hawkeye's electro-disruption arrows from (Avengers Vol.3 #1) where they had no effect on her.

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Another thing that could be of great assistance here would be Monica being able to temporarily blind Evan so he cannot use his weapon to counterattack her in time. She can release a blast of blinding light to take away his field of vision as shown when she did it to the Avengers who were being manipulated by Morgan Le Fey (Avengers Vol.3 #1).

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Final Thoughts

I think this is more than enough to be an opener, in fact, I think I went overboard quite a bit, but I wanted some things to be clear from the beginning rather than going over it in a later post. As I've shown, Monica brings many things to this battle, from her sheer speed to her versatility and power. I think she has a number of ways she can take down Evan, but I'll wait to see what you bring forth. I haven't gotten into everything she can do as of yet, but I'll do so if I feel the stakes need to be higher. With that being said, you're up @lord-parallax.

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#11 Edited by Lord-Parallax (4504 posts) - - Show Bio

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Bio:

Evan McCulloch is the second Mirror Master, given the equipment of Samuel Joesph Scudder, the first Mirror Master who fought Barry Allen, by the US government and given a job as their personal enforcer.

However this didn't last long, as Evan ended up putting his bosses in the mirror world and eventually joined up as one of the Flash's Rogues alongside the likes of Captain Cold and Heatwave.

Equipment:

Like most of the Rogues, Evan uses Technology to fight the Flash such as his Mirror Gun which can turn people into mirrors.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
The Flash: #212

Evan also has his own Mirror dimension which he commonly uses to fight Speedsters that can be accessed through any reflective Surface.

(The Flash: #105).

Flash: #212
Flash: #212

Evan also has the ability to create Holograms of himself that can't be harmed.

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Evan can also keep up with the Flash while travelling at Lightspeed. His Mirror Gun also fires at lightspeed.

(The Flash: #133)

The Flash: #133
The Flash: #133

Initial Thoughts:

  • Monica may have the edge over Evan speed wise but he has the better reflexes.
  • Monica's more trickier attacks (like Gamma Bursts) can be avoided via jumping into the mirror dimension.
  • Trapping her in the Mirror World and leaving her stranded by breaking the mirror is perfectly in character for Evan to do.
  • Monica'll have a difficult time finding Evan's real form considering he can do it across an entire city.
  • If Evan needs to, he can blind her. (Final Crisis: Rogue's Revenge #2).
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#12 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4504 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by jardinain2 (3005 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#14 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4504 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by blackpantherisb (2175 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord-parallax: was that the time you got the whole Superman CaV done in a day?

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#17 Posted by haoalchemist (5709 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#18 Posted by P00TY (3245 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#19 Posted by pansito (668 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#21 Posted by APEX_pretador (11856 posts) - - Show Bio

tfv

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#22 Posted by Tedirey (812 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#23 Posted by NortonEk (151 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#24 Posted by BlackestNight93 (10962 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord-parallax: last scan of Mirror Master posted twice. The one from Flash 133

Also, Tag. I've heard Monica's pretty powerful, be interesting to see what she's capable of

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#25 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4504 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by BlackestNight93 (10962 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Edited by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2

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Now that we have gotten our respective openers over with, we can dive into why we think both of characters deserve the win over the other.

Counters:

Like most of the Rogues, Evan uses Technology to fight the Flash such as his Mirror Gun which can turn people into mirrors.

Quick little question, I would like to bring up and I'm really interested in seeing how you go about countering it. What if Monica was to steal the Mirror Gun from Evan? Seeing how it's a weapon that is remotely similar to a gun, she could potentially do it from the start. If that's not too likely, what if she saw him use it once and seen that it was a weapon that could potentially take her down so then she prompts to get rid of it? This is a tactic a Flash has used on him before, disarming him before he got the chance to use his weapon.

In this occasion, the Flash actually deactivated the gun, however, what if Monica just snatches it from him altogether? What if Monica does the same thing by turning into electricity and disrupting the gun?

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Evan also has the ability to create Holograms of himself that can't be harmed.

What do you mean exactly by can't be harmed? I'm aware holograms aren't actually materialized, but they can be disrupted. Monica should be more than capable of disrupting them as long as she wants. Being able to turn into the entire electromagnetic spectrum would work wonders with that. Amazing Spider-Man Annual #16

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Keep that in mind, Monica can release a blast of light without losing her light form, meaning she can be intangible while releasing a blast. How can Mirror Master do anything against an intangible opponent who can release blasts of energy?

Evan can also keep up with the Flash while travelling at Lightspeed. His Mirror Gun also fires at lightspeed.

Here's what I have to say about this. Though it's impressive he can keep up with the Flash's movement and all, I still don't see him being able to do much to Monica. For starters, the only thing Monica and Flash share are speed, she is much more than just that. For starters, Evan can follow Monica all he wants, but he's not going to be trapping light in a mirror, so unless she stabilizes or changes forms, it's going to be difficult in catching her. Secondly, she is much more versatile than the Flash and has many methods of attacking. She can turn into electricity to disrupt his gun, she can potentially melt it with her microwave blasts, and so on. Finally, there is her overall power, which Flash didn't have when fighting Evan. She can release blasts in large areas of effect which he isn't avoiding and would take him out of battle. I haven't shown you the scale she can release them on, so here is an example from Nextwave: Agents Of H.A.T.E #6, where she unleashes a blast of Ultra-Violet light in an omnidirectional blast. The area of effect should deal with the many holograms and potentially take Evan out of the equation.

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Monica may have the edge over Evan speed wise but he has the better reflexes.

Monica can move, react, and fight at the speed of whatever she is. If she is light, she can react at those speeds too. Evan doesn't beat her in anything that comes to speed. In fact, she's faster than light herself as she's avoided light-speed attacks, which I'll present lower.

Monica's more trickier attacks (like Gamma Bursts) can be avoided via jumping into the mirror dimension.

The question is can he do that fast enough? Evan has nice reaction speed, but can he actually move his body fast enough to go into a mirror before the blast hits him? Just remember that Monica can release her blasts at the same speed as what they are.

Trapping her in the Mirror World and leaving her stranded by breaking the mirror is perfectly in character for Evan to do.

It's in-character, however, I don't see her getting trapped in there, to begin with. She's a very smart fighter and would notice there is something up with those mirrors from the jump. It also doesn't hurt that the Rogues love explaining their abilities to their opponents. Monica can potentially heat up all the mirrors in the area to where they shatter so Mirror Master can't jump into them, use them or send her to his mirror world. Nextwave: Agents Of H.A.T.E #12

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Keep in mind Monica can fly and Evan cannot. Someone who can fly at her speeds while keeping intangability is quite difficult to defeat. She can just blast from a distance.

Monica'll have a difficult time finding Evan's real form considering he can do it across an entire city.

Seeing how she's as fast as light and can release large scale blasts with large area's of effect, it shouldn't be too hard finding Evan at all. Especially since she can split her light form into plenty of smaller photon forms, which all retain her ability as well. She can use this to keep the holograms at bay as well as find and overwhelm Evan. By the way, here is her avoiding light-speed blasts several times with her smaller photons. Black Panther Vol. 4 #38.

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If Evan needs to, he can blind her. (Final Crisis: Rogue's Revenge #2).

This is the same tactic I had Monica being able to do against Evan. I didn't see a counter for it, so I'm going to assume it's an effective one. I'm also finding it hard to believe Monica can be blinded given she is light, or electricity, or what she becomes. Unless she's in her human form, this wouldn't work. Given who she's fighting, I don't think she'll be in it much.

Final Thoughts

  • Monica is faster than Evan in all regards.
  • Monica is too versatile and has many methods of taking him down. Heating up the glass in the area, stealing/melting his gun, overwhelming him with numbers, area of effect blast on him.
  • Monica can also fly which would make it harder for Mirror Master to actually use his gun on her, while she can blast him from afar.
  • He can do much to her when she's in a lot of her forms thanks to intangibility.
  • She can create miniature versions of herself to overwhelm Evan and find him throughout the city.
  • Monica has experience fighting lots of different opponents, none like Evan, but she has an experience advantage. He's used to fighting the Flash all the time and won't be prepared for Monica's versatility.

You're up @lord-parallax.

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#28 Edited by thanosii (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

This is an interesting battle . Spectrum is one of the few herald tier characters that can solo the Justice League ( besides MMH) Mirror Masters will have to be debated exceptionally well here

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#29 Posted by Watcher5000 (2326 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#31 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4504 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by P00TY (3245 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanosii: This is an interesting battle . Spectrum is one of the few herald tier characters that can solo the Justice League ( besides MMH) Mirror Masters will have to be debated exceptionally well here...

Couldn't have said it better.

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#34 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#38 Posted by lvenger (31205 posts) - - Show Bio

@newworldorder: LordParallax has been banned, I don't know if he'll be able to continue this CAV unfortunately.

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#39 Edited by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@newworldorder: LordParallax has been banned, I don't know if he'll be able to continue this CAV unfortunately.

Woah, banned? I wasn't aware of this, thanks for the heads up. I wonder if there are any Mirror Master debaters who would want to take this up in his absence.

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#40 Edited by lvenger (31205 posts) - - Show Bio

@newworldorder: No worries, thought you should be informed when I saw this topic bumped. it's a shame, I was enjoying this debate, both sides were doing well.

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#41 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1661 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@newworldorder: No worries, thought you should be informed when I saw this topic bumped. it's a shame, I was enjoying this debate, both sides were doing well.

Thank you, hopefully I can find someone to fill the spot.

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#42 Posted by Watcher5000 (2326 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@newworldorder: LordParallax has been banned, I don't know if he'll be able to continue this CAV unfortunately.

How come?

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#43 Edited by lvenger (31205 posts) - - Show Bio
@watcher5000 said:
@lvenger said:

@newworldorder: LordParallax has been banned, I don't know if he'll be able to continue this CAV unfortunately.

How come?

It was because of some PM incident.

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