Shinobi vs Pirate Alliance
- KCM Minato (No Edo)
- Katakuri and Doflamingo have Perfect Teamwork
- All Fighters are in Prime Physical Condition
- In Character, but Serious
- Random Encounter
- Fighters Start 50 Feet Apart
@defiant_will: Alright buddy. let's do this.
|The Rundown||Minato Namikaze|
|First Appearance||Chapter 239|
|Latest Appearance||Chapter 691|
|Powers & Abilities|
|Chakra Nature Affinities|
From the very beginning, The Tailed Beasts were shown to be at the apex of the Naruto Universe, with the very first page of the very first chapter detailing how the Nine-Tailed Fox could cause landslides and induce Tsunamis by merely shaking its tails:
And as the Tailed Beasts were expanded upon and shown in a greater capacity, it was shown that this level of power held up, and even surpassed greatly. It was shown that even a Chibaku Tensei, a technique whose volume, power, and potency dwarfed a mountain range (Ch.439) was nowhere near enough to stop the physical might of a half-strength Kurama who hadn't even fully manifested:
This is compounded upon when the other Tailed Beasts are shown battling, being able to fire the Tailed Beast Bomb, attacks that when fired at standard levels vaporize multiple mountains(Ch.571). When five tailed beats pool their power together and clash, the resulting explosion dwarfs mountain ranges and even islands, The Eight-Tails even noting that had the attack not been redirected up, the entire area in that panel would have been vaporized. The Eight and Nine-Tails replicate something like this when they supercharge an even larger bomb that replicates the previous showing, this time even showing the curvature of the planet and sending shockwaves/reverberations throughout the country:
Tailed Beast Bombs are not only insanely powerful but also incredibly fast. Standard tailed beast bombs were shown to cross hundreds of miles, a mountain range, across an ocean, as well as mow down mountainous objects in an instant. (Ch.621) Making reacting to them and countering them mid-flight extremely impressive in terms of speed.
Almost as if they were an inverse to the Tailed Beasts, The Kage of Naruto are established as being the most powerful shinobi in the universe. Keeping in line with the theme, it was a Kage, a Hokage that defeated the Nine-Tails that could cause landslides and induce tsunamis by shaking its tails:
This is consistent with the Kage's portrayal throughout the series, with many subjugating Tailed Beasts on their own like Rasa the Fourth Kazekage, who battled, defeated and subdued Shukaku (Ch.546) the One-Tail multiple times throughout his tenure. Or like A the Third Raikage who could battle Gyuki the Eight-Tails for hours on end to the point of exhaustion. (Ch. 555). Kage of the modern era subjugates the Tailed Beasts to close ally or relative to show off their might. (Ch.439)
Both Gaara and Sage Mode Naruto were shown to be superior to these Kage. Both being able to defeat them solo. Showing overall superiority in power, strength, and speed. In further examples:
Onoki, for example, was shown to be an island level character(Ch. 514-15) being stated of being capable of destroying Turtle Island and even his Lightweight Jutsu shown to casually capable of affecting it in its entirety. As well as twice being able to create massive craters and destroy Madara's Wood Release and 25 Susanoo Clones. This is extremely impressive given the area of Madara's Deep Forest Emergence was even shown to extend far into the horizon. (Ch.588)
Gaara and Onoki together were able to stop one of Madara's meteors as well as survive its country-level impact. (Ch. 561) Tsunade being shown as stronger than the Raikage, able to hit even harder than him, according to Madara himself.
The Fourth Raikage was shown to be able to move and fight while under the inverse effect of Onoki's techniques which were shown to be able to affect islands and meteors; as well as being shown to be able of stopping multiple Susanoo from even lifting a finger. The Raikage also being significantly faster than lightning by moving faster than the Mangekyo Sharingan can perceive (Ch.463). And a severely debilitated Shairngan allowed Itachi to react to lightning (Ch. 391).
Naruto himself when accessing deeper wells of Kurama's power was shown to be just as powerful if not more so,
When first accessing this level of power was able to greatly out-speed and punches five fully charged Tailed Beast Bombs (mountain vaporizing-island destroying) in different directions after they had been fired. (Ch. 571). And as a reminder, Standard tailed beast bombs were shown to cross hundreds of miles, a mountain range, across an ocean, as well as mow down mountainous objects in an extremely short amount of time. (Ch. 621).
And yet despite all this, Naruto, the Kage, and Bijuu tier fighters were unable to stop Madara, Obito, and the Ten-Tails. The ultimate culmination of the Tailed Beasts power.
The Ten-Tails was shown to be an aggregate and exponentially greater power than that of the Tailed Beasts, Kage, and practically any other power up to this point. The stories behind the beast even portray it as akin to a god. Just by existing, it would carry mountains, drink oceans, and split apart the very earth itself (Ch. 594). Even Naruto was unable to process the depths of its power, he and Kurama both agreeing that it was immeasurable (Ch. 610). Now you could potentially pass this off as hyperbole or folktale meant as nothing more than empty hype...until you experience an actual taste of its power.
All that was shown before become even more consistent and even pales in comparison when Gyuki and Kurama combine their power in an attempt to destroy the Ten-Tails before it is fully revived.
The resulting impact makes the previous one look notably inferior as we not only receive a larger wide shot of the country to demonstrate its power, but we even see the curvature of the planet:
As shown, the explosion dwarfs ranges for hundreds of miles, and yet the Ten-Tails takes no damage from this. Already establishing itself, at a minimum as a country level threat. Which is consistent once again with the lore that establishes her: ", it would carry mountains, drink oceans, and split apart the very earth itself ".
Later when Naruto and Co. begin fighting the Ten-Tails, a casual strike from her causing an explosion that dwarfs the Tailed Beasts at full size as well as the landscape in both height and width:
Tearing into, ravaging, and reforming said landscape, she was shown to be far above Gyuki and Kurama as even a charged TBB from Gyuki was flicked away as if no more than a fly (Ch. 611). Her casual Tailed Beast Bomb in its laser form plows through a combined barrage of Gyuki and Kurama's own; and even while diverted leaves an explosion and aftermath that dwarfs ranges in both height, length, and volume:
This is merely the first form of the Ten-Tails shown in the series chronology and notably weakened at that since it is still missing the full chakra of its remaining parts, those being Gyuki and Kurama. When it later evolves into what I will call V2, the sheer scale of its attacks makes it seems as if the V2 is from an entirely different, yet vastly more powerful series:
Note how in the former scan, the sensor unit's only method of comparison to comprehend the power of the Ten-Tails is as if it is a small planet that is fighting on the battlefield. Which is depicted in the bottom scan which makes the previous curvature shots seem like garbage. Kakashi, who was present for every showing before is amazed all over again noting that the previous power doesn't even begin to compare. And this is just it firing off its power randomly unfocused and uncontrolled.
Even still this is not over, as the Ten-Tails continues to ascend, reaching what we can call V3. Only now after fighting the Alliance for some time, does it begin to supercharge its bombs:
Note the dramatic increase in musculature, which was only shown previously on the head in V2, and afterward on its entire body in the lead up to the Tenpenchii. The Alliance is left at a loss of what to do, even Bee can't continue holding it back for long and all their strongest fighters are down. Until...
With his Flying Thunder God, Minato casually teleports a Tailed Beast Bomb capable of destroying at least a continent a country's worth of a distance away, mass, speed, power and all. Along with the rest of the former Hokage, this arrival turns the tide of the war. As they fully immobilize the Ten-Tails and create the Four Crimson-Ray Formation. A barrier that not only stops the Ten-Tails from moving, but can face-tank, and redirect the full power Tailed Beast Ball that the entire alliance before failed to stop:
Showing not only incredible speed but also incredible raw power and reserves from each Hokage. As contributing even a fourth of the power for this barrier is extremely impressive. But what does it look like when we focus this power down to just Minato? Let's begin breaking him down further.
As far as speed, I'll be arguing Minato as being at least high-end MHS+ in combat and being able to reach even higher if need be. In simpler terms, and current CV's lingo, this is mid to high-end quad mach. I'll use one of his more clear cut showings, at least in terms of scale. During his final battle before his death, Minato showed a clear superiority to a top tier of the universe in Obito:
This is incredibly impressive given that Minato could take on, outpace, and severely damage Obito to the point where a single Rasengan could tear his back open and practically sever his limb. (Ch. 503). For one, Obito has already called things like Tailed Beast Bombs slow compared to his speed (Ch. 595), and we've seen how fast those are, but furthermore, Obito could battle and outmatch Naruto, Kakashi, Bee, and Gated Guy all on his own,(Ch.595) who all have shown the capacity of speed to greatly outspeed multiple bombs themselves. Obito could even take blows and multiple Rasengan from Naruto and come out with bruises at worst. It took Naruto himself showing that mountain range level striking and speed just for Kakashi to compare him to Minato's relative base form.
Minato only scales to and significantly above these Tailed Beast tier feats, since he mastered the same form Naruto has, with the other half of Kurama's power. That's not all I have to say for his speed, as I haven't even touched his speed feats in his KCM/BM. Minato could react to, and escape the overflow of the branches of the Divine Tree, and was stated to be even faster than Tobirama, the creator of the FTG.
This is notable given that Tobirama has shown to be able to react to and counteract the roots/branches of the Shinju. Being able to react and combat the roots of the Divine Tree, which travel at high quad-mach speeds around the planet to ensnare its targets. Note that it took Juubito to land a (somewhat blocked still) hit on Minato (he was distracted by Naruto and Sasuke) in the war when he could blitz the likes of Hashirama and Tobirama in his most uncontrolled state. Which leads me to talk about Minato's durability in his Chakra cloak, as Obito's basic chakra arms could destroy the Hokage's Crimson Ray Formation with absolute ease:
This is consistent with Naruto's cloak being able to protect the entire Shinbo Alliance from the Juubi's Tenpenchii. This is a culmination of the Ten-Tails's power up to that point; by interfering with the natural energy using its immeasurable amount of chakra, the Ten-Tails can simultaneously create a variety of natural disasters that devastate the surrounding area, with itself acting as their epicenter. The phenomena involved in this technique include earthquakes, floods, thunderstorms, and tornadoes. These concurrent events result in a blast akin to a nuclear explosion, even forming a vast mushroom cloud.
Suffice it to say, Minato is incredibly powerful, and benefits from direct feats and scaling that put him up there with the best of Naruto's top tiers. As such I don't think your pirate duo can afford to do any less than their best to put Minato down for the count. Overall I think this is a decent start to show how powerful he is. Like I said before though I won't make any solid claims or conclusions until you've had a chance to post. This should highlight what I want to say for now.
To start wrapping up this post, I'll detail a quick tidbit into how Minato approaches his battles, namely him vs multiple opponents at once:
In the above link, we see Minato's tactics when engaging opponents in combat. Here he elects to fight the opposing army (mainly A and B) alone. He starts the battle by spreading countless kunai across the battlefield while keeping a select few on his person. This enables him to constantly warp around the battlefield and keep ahead of his opponents, even when they can predict where he's going to land. From there he goes for immediate lethal blows to the body, and when the opportunity affords itself, marks his opponents so he can directly on top of them if need be. Using this strategy he quickly has both A and B on the backfoot despite their numbers advantage. With his notable speed and heightened attack potency, I doubt even your two pirates could take many blows from Minato, let alone match his sheer speed and teleportation. I'll leave that to you to prove though.
For now, I'll end my rant here, all this in mind, I think we have a solid idea of just how Minato fights, where he stands in the universe and how he incorporates his raw power with his sheer versatility. Combined they are a lethal force that I don't believe Doflamingo and Katakuri can hope to match, let alone outmatch. Still, that's all for now. Best of luck to us both!
@thevivas: yeah and minato only ever showed Bm, he turned into a kyuubi avatar in this form which was what BM was.
Kcm=kyuubi chakra mode
Both have the same orange tint and chakra, but for Naruto he gained a cloak in Bm, minato was wearing a cloak before going into Bm so that isn’t good enough to tell the difference between the two. The big difference between the two was the kyuubi avatar which is their bijuu mode. Minato could use the avatar in this form so it’s bijuu mode.
@thevivas: most people just consider that just the same form, he gains the cloak and Kurama’ and can summon the avatar. He doesn’t look any different between what you’re calling Kcm2 and when he is in the kyuubi avatar. In fact nothing changes about him between achieving the cloaked form until he goes BSM. So what makes you say that Kcm2 isn’t able to summon the avatar? (If this is going to be a long debate just PM me because this is a cav)
Also would what would we call BSM then? Because if Bm is just when he is in the avatar then what is it called when he isn’t in the avatar and using sage mode? KSCM2?
Throughout the story of One Piece, Monkey D. Luffy has faced his fair share of powerful opponents. From Pre Timeskip Villains like Enel and Rob Lucci to even Post Time Skip antagonists like Hody Jones and Caesar. However, even after winning countless battles, never before has the validity of Luffy's victory been called into question... until Luffy was pitted against Doflamingo and Katakuri. Doflamingo, a monster of physical strength and endurance with a versatile Devil fruit to boot. And Katakuri, Observation Haki specialist and one of the only One Piece characters to possess a special Paramecia. If not for the convenience of plot, Luffy's dream to become the Pirate King would've ended in Dressrosa or Whole Cake Island.
In both of those fights, Oda made something very clear about characters like Doffy and Katakuri. It was emphasized that superior physicality isn't the end all be all to all fights in One Piece. Doflamingo's endurance and awakening helped him to outlast Luffy's much faster and stronger Boundman form while Doffy was already severely weakened. Katakuri's Observation Haki and awakening was enough to keep up with and even gain the upperhand against the stronger Boundman and the faster Snakeman.
Going into this CaV and after reading my opponent's Minato opener, I can admit that Minato is the physical superior to both Doflamingo and Katakuri. However, if their fights against Gear 4th have shown me anything, it is that a physicality disparity isn't a game changer. Between Doflamingo's endurance and versatile set of powers and Katakuri's future sight and awakening, I think that these two New World Pirates have what it takes to beat the 4th Hokage.
For this opener, I am not really going to go in depth about Doflamingo and Katakuri's physical capabilities. Instead, I will focus more on the x-factors they bring to the table not only individually, but as a team.
The first step to cementing a victory over Minato is getting past his superior speed and mobility via FTG. It is for that very reason that I want to place emphasis on Observation Haki. At its most basic form, Observation Haki allows one to feel someone's "presence." This ability often manifests itself in the form of precognition and a heightened sense of awareness.
Even at its earliest stages, Observation Haki has been established as an ability that can circumvent a significant speed disadvantage. During Skypeia, where Observation Haki was established as "Mantra," we saw this put in practice. We first see Enel casually fodderize his priests at the same time.
Later, we see that same Enel get tagged dozens of times by Luffy once his Mantra is negged, essentially cementing a significant speed advantage for Luffy:
By these two showings, it should be safe to say that Luffy>>Enel>>His Priests in terms of speed. Or in other words, the speed difference between Luffy and Enel's Priests should be massive and they should get blitzed dozens of times over. And yet, one of the priests, Satori, was able to casually toy with both Luffy AND Sanji just by using his Mantra.
We know from that Doflamingo is able to use all three forms of Haki, including Observation Haki. Based on that alone, which is a rarity within the verse of One Piece, Doflamingo should be comfortably above Satori in Haki ability. And that's without taking into account the obvious difference in portrayal and status (underling to a Pre Time Skip villain vs a powerful warlord and infamous pirate of the New World). So, with Observation Haki, Doflamingo should have no problem dealing with opponents that should, for all intents and purposes, blitz him to high heaven.
If you want proof of this in action, look no further when Doffy fights Boundman. Despite Luffy moving massively FTE to Doffy over a city block's worth of distance, Doffy is still able to coat his face in Armament to defend at the last second despite the vast speed disparity. I'd like it to be known that this Doffy was severely weakened, taking an organ scrambling attack and blunt force punishment out the wazoo. Observation Haki, and Haki in general, is stamina based, so this showing is far from the limit of Doffy in terms of dealing with faster characters.
But, as stated before, this is far from the limit of Observation Haki. There are some that have mastered their Observation Haki so far to the point that they can actually see into the future. One of those characters is Charlotte Katakuri:
Katakuri is noted as being a master of Observation Haki, and it is this proficiency that actually forces Luffy to also advance his Haki skill. It is noteworthy that in Kizaru's databook entry, it was stated that only proficient Haki users can "grasp his movements." Note that that same databook entry, in addition to manga canon, confirms that Kizaru is in fact light speed. I am not asserting that Katakuri has light speed reactions, not at all. The reason I wanted to bring that up is that, portrayal wise, it shows that Oda intends for Observation Haki to be a speed equalizer of sorts. A way for characters to actually stand a fighting chance against a light speed Admiral who is the fastest in the verse.
I don't think I really need to provide feats for how beneficial seeing 5 seconds into the future mid fight would be against faster opponents. But, to cover my bases, here is Luffy who just unlocked Future Sight being able to dodge an barrage of attacks from Katakuri like nothing:
This was base form Luffy mind you, who was in critical condition. This is crazy impressive because up until that point Katakuri was tagging him left and right and even held his own against his faster forms.
I think I've made it pretty clear that Observation Haki is a great way to level the playing field against faster opponents. In order to truly overwhelm a proficient Haki user with speed alone, one would literally have to be magnitudes faster than them. While I admit Minato is faster, he isn't that much faster.
To be brief, both Doflamingo and Katakuri scale significantly above Luffy's Punk Hazard feat, a casually quad mach feat he accomplished in base form. Both scale even further beyond Brook's casual, point blank lightning timing. I mean Brook was scared to death seeing Doffy charge towards him and had to wait to be saved by Sanji... who then got fodderized and toyed with. Speaking of, Doflamingo himself has reacted to and sliced a point blank meteorite from Fujitora. Mid end quad mach speeds should be a solid placement for these two characters in all honesty. Punk Hazard speeds for base Luffy are consistent even in Dressrosa. Even Hakuba has a similar speed feat as well. And casual lightning timing mid tiers is consistent with a Pre Time Skip villain being lightning speed back at Skypeia.
So yeah, Observation Haki is a significant boon that can help to make up for some massive speed differences, and I don't see why Minato would be any exception. I can stress enough that Minato would have to at least be an order of magnitude faster than Doffy and Katakuri in orderto overcome their Observation Haki.
Another boon for Katakuri and Doflamingo when it comes to fighting against speedy characters is their Devil Fruit Awakening. It allows both of them to transform their surrounding environment into mochi and strings respectively.
Doflamingo can use his ability on a near city wide scale. Since the setting for this fight is Dressrosa, these scans should give you a good visual for how Doflamingo will use his Awakening. He can turn buildings into strings, spawn massive string spears from the ground, and even turn the very ground itself into string:
He can fire off string attacks by the dozens with his Awakening in play:
Doffy's battlefield control via his Awakening is immense. And for someone like Minato, whose main technique is throwing his Kunai around the battlefield to teleport around it, I think that navigating through a string filled Dressrosa will be a little hard for Minato. And that's just one member of my team.
Katakuri's awakening is arguably even more suited to countering speed types giving the sticky nature of his mochi. Katakuri has used this ability to catch a moving Luffy several times (1,2). Katakuri is no stranger to AoE, however. He can also suffocate his opponents with his molchi awakening:
So between the team's Observation Haki and Battlefield Control, I think Katakuri and Doffy are more than capable of dealing with Minato's speed and FTG mobility. The constantly manipulated battlefield will make it hard for Minato to effectively use FTG. And the combination of Doflamingo's string spear bombardments and Katakuri's sticky mochi attacks should make it that much harder for Minato to press a speed advantage.
In addition to Awakening's, Doflamingo and Katakuri have other techniques that could prove very useful. For Doflamingo, it is the infamous Parasite String. He attaches unseen strands of string to his opponent which he can use to control their body like a puppeteer. Here he uses it to completely stop Sanji from moving with just a subtle twitch of his fingers:
And before you say that Minato can just flex out of these strings (which could be debatable because the only time someone has broken out of Parasite was when Luffy was in G4, which can just as easily be attributed to a rapid expansion of his body as opposed to raw strength), you would have to prove that Minato would know to do that. I mean Sanji, who is noted for his Observation Haki, didn't even know the strings were there and had no idea what Doflamingo had done to him.
This is the same Sanji who has 360 degree battlefield awareness, displayed when he instantly detected and blitzed a sniper 8 meters off the ground. Keep in mind, prior to this Sanji was talking with Viola and wasn't exactly poised for combat:
Doflamingo also has potent piercing attacks, which he can use while also using Parasite. As shown previously, unnamed string attacks from Doffy can slice through a meteorite like swiss cheese. And the Birdcage, strings that aren't visibly coated in Haki and that are made from the strings of the Black Knight (so it's not like these strings are his most powerful, not by a long shot), can neg the KE of a small mountain sized meteorite just by impact. The size of the meteorite is relative to Pica's torso, so we know that it is that size.
This feat is mountain +-multi mountain levels in piercing, and Doflamingo's more powerful attacks like the God Thread and the visibly Haki enhanced strings should be above this. I haven't seen Minato's piercing feats, so from what I've seen thus far, Doflamingo's string attacks should deal significant damage.
Katakuri has his Power Molchi attacks, each one being able to significantly hurt Boundman Luffy. These attacks should be above mountain level considering island splitting attacks didn't really phase Thriller Bark Luffy. Not to mention that Katakuri's Haki was shown to be far superior to Luffy's while they were both using regular Haki amped attacks, Luffy hurting himself just clashing. For reference, Luffy's base form Haki could defend against stabs from Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers without anywhere near as much trouble (who Luffy admitted had the strongest Haki he had seen thus far, meaning Cracker's stabs>Doffy's strings).
Oh and Katakuri can spam these attacks:
I think Katakuri's Power Molchi spam should be able to tax Minato' durability. On top of that, Doffy's string attacks seem to be a fight ender unless Minato has piercing durability feats I am not aware of. And the Parasite String should be the perfect opening to set up for Power Molchi spam or a named string attack from Doffy.
So with this opener, I hope I've established that this very much a winnable fight for my team. They are proficient in Observation Haki, which has been shown to make up for vast speed gaps by relative fodder. They also have Awakening, which can further help counter Minato's mobility via FTG and his raw movement speed. The level of battlefield control they both have individually would be troublesome for Minato by itself, but when used together, I think Minato will have quite the tough time maneuvering around the constantly shifting battlefield. Doffy has Parasite String, which as far as I know, is a valid way to leave Minato open for a follow up attack. This follow up attack can be Doffy's named string attacks, which I assume would one shot (again, I am open to see what else you will show for Minato) or Katakuri's Power Molchi spam, which could whittle down Minato's durability.
In my next post, I will elaborate on the defensive aspects of my opponent's arsenal, namely endurance and Katakuri's molchi defenses.
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