CaV: Minato (DarthjHawk) vs Doflamingo and Katakuri (Defiant_Will) VOTING CLOSED

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defiant_will

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#1  Edited By defiant_will

Shinobi vs Pirate Alliance

No Caption Provided

Rules

  • KCM Minato (No Edo)
  • Katakuri and Doflamingo have Perfect Teamwork
  • All Fighters are in Prime Physical Condition
  • In Character, but Serious
  • Random Encounter
  • Fighters Start 50 Feet Apart

Setting

Dressrosa
Dressrosa

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AnimeFreak1

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Co-Boss

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Why is minato Kcm? He only ever showed BM?

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floridaman29

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TAEP I can't wait for this one

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AnimeFreak1

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@co-boss:

I think a lot of people usually refer to BM as KCM as well for some reason

Or KCM2

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shirso

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AlmightyAmortal

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SuperiorSGBeast

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DeathHero61

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#15  Edited By DeathHero61

Watch this one not go on past the openers and we get another CAV with different characters

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defiant_will

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DeathHero61

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@defiant_will: Kind of hard to when I was looking forward to Luffy vs Meliodas....

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stormshadow_x

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#18  Edited By stormshadow_x

Tag

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Dmnb2wavy

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darthjhawk

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#20 darthjhawk  Moderator

@defiant_will: Alright buddy. let's do this.

Run on Sight: The Yellow Flash, Minato Namikaze

No Caption Provided

Character Rundown: The Flying Thunder God

Loading Video...
The RundownMinato Namikaze
Height179.2 cm
Weight66.1 kg
First AppearanceChapter 239
Latest AppearanceChapter 691
Powers & Abilities
  • Superhuman Physical Characteristics
  • Diverse Ninjutsu Arsenal
  • Master Hand to Hand Combatant
Chakra Nature Affinities
  • Fire Release
  • Wind Release
  • Lightning Release
  • Yin Release
  • Yang Release
Notable Skills/Jutsu/Techniques
  • Flying Thunder God
  • Fuinjutsu
  • Sage Mode
  • Rasengan

Flying Thunder God Part I: Establishing The Lore/Power of the Verse

The Power of the Tailed Beasts:

From the very beginning, The Tailed Beasts were shown to be at the apex of the Naruto Universe, with the very first page of the very first chapter detailing how the Nine-Tailed Fox could cause landslides and induce Tsunamis by merely shaking its tails:

Chapter 1
Chapter 1

And as the Tailed Beasts were expanded upon and shown in a greater capacity, it was shown that this level of power held up, and even surpassed greatly. It was shown that even a Chibaku Tensei, a technique whose volume, power, and potency dwarfed a mountain range (Ch.439) was nowhere near enough to stop the physical might of a half-strength Kurama who hadn't even fully manifested:

Chapter 439
Chapter 439

This is compounded upon when the other Tailed Beasts are shown battling, being able to fire the Tailed Beast Bomb, attacks that when fired at standard levels vaporize multiple mountains(Ch.571). When five tailed beats pool their power together and clash, the resulting explosion dwarfs mountain ranges and even islands, The Eight-Tails even noting that had the attack not been redirected up, the entire area in that panel would have been vaporized. The Eight and Nine-Tails replicate something like this when they supercharge an even larger bomb that replicates the previous showing, this time even showing the curvature of the planet and sending shockwaves/reverberations throughout the country:

Chapter 609
Chapter 609

Tailed Beast Bombs are not only insanely powerful but also incredibly fast. Standard tailed beast bombs were shown to cross hundreds of miles, a mountain range, across an ocean, as well as mow down mountainous objects in an instant. (Ch.621) Making reacting to them and countering them mid-flight extremely impressive in terms of speed.

The Power of Naruto & The Kage:

Almost as if they were an inverse to the Tailed Beasts, The Kage of Naruto are established as being the most powerful shinobi in the universe. Keeping in line with the theme, it was a Kage, a Hokage that defeated the Nine-Tails that could cause landslides and induce tsunamis by shaking its tails:

No Caption Provided

This is consistent with the Kage's portrayal throughout the series, with many subjugating Tailed Beasts on their own like Rasa the Fourth Kazekage, who battled, defeated and subdued Shukaku (Ch.546) the One-Tail multiple times throughout his tenure. Or like A the Third Raikage who could battle Gyuki the Eight-Tails for hours on end to the point of exhaustion. (Ch. 555). Kage of the modern era subjugates the Tailed Beasts to close ally or relative to show off their might. (Ch.439)

Both Gaara and Sage Mode Naruto were shown to be superior to these Kage. Both being able to defeat them solo. Showing overall superiority in power, strength, and speed. In further examples:

Onoki, for example, was shown to be an island level character(Ch. 514-15) being stated of being capable of destroying Turtle Island and even his Lightweight Jutsu shown to casually capable of affecting it in its entirety. As well as twice being able to create massive craters and destroy Madara's Wood Release and 25 Susanoo Clones. This is extremely impressive given the area of Madara's Deep Forest Emergence was even shown to extend far into the horizon. (Ch.588)

Gaara and Onoki together were able to stop one of Madara's meteors as well as survive its country-level impact. (Ch. 561) Tsunade being shown as stronger than the Raikage, able to hit even harder than him, according to Madara himself.

The Fourth Raikage was shown to be able to move and fight while under the inverse effect of Onoki's techniques which were shown to be able to affect islands and meteors; as well as being shown to be able of stopping multiple Susanoo from even lifting a finger. The Raikage also being significantly faster than lightning by moving faster than the Mangekyo Sharingan can perceive (Ch.463). And a severely debilitated Shairngan allowed Itachi to react to lightning (Ch. 391).

Naruto himself when accessing deeper wells of Kurama's power was shown to be just as powerful if not more so,

When first accessing this level of power was able to greatly out-speed and punches five fully charged Tailed Beast Bombs (mountain vaporizing-island destroying) in different directions after they had been fired. (Ch. 571). And as a reminder, Standard tailed beast bombs were shown to cross hundreds of miles, a mountain range, across an ocean, as well as mow down mountainous objects in an extremely short amount of time. (Ch. 621).

The Power of The Ten-Tails:

And yet despite all this, Naruto, the Kage, and Bijuu tier fighters were unable to stop Madara, Obito, and the Ten-Tails. The ultimate culmination of the Tailed Beasts power.

No Caption Provided

The Ten-Tails was shown to be an aggregate and exponentially greater power than that of the Tailed Beasts, Kage, and practically any other power up to this point. The stories behind the beast even portray it as akin to a god. Just by existing, it would carry mountains, drink oceans, and split apart the very earth itself (Ch. 594). Even Naruto was unable to process the depths of its power, he and Kurama both agreeing that it was immeasurable (Ch. 610). Now you could potentially pass this off as hyperbole or folktale meant as nothing more than empty hype...until you experience an actual taste of its power.

All that was shown before become even more consistent and even pales in comparison when Gyuki and Kurama combine their power in an attempt to destroy the Ten-Tails before it is fully revived.

The resulting impact makes the previous one look notably inferior as we not only receive a larger wide shot of the country to demonstrate its power, but we even see the curvature of the planet:

Chapter 609
Chapter 609

As shown, the explosion dwarfs ranges for hundreds of miles, and yet the Ten-Tails takes no damage from this. Already establishing itself, at a minimum as a country level threat. Which is consistent once again with the lore that establishes her: ", it would carry mountains, drink oceans, and split apart the very earth itself ".

Later when Naruto and Co. begin fighting the Ten-Tails, a casual strike from her causing an explosion that dwarfs the Tailed Beasts at full size as well as the landscape in both height and width:

No Caption Provided

Tearing into, ravaging, and reforming said landscape, she was shown to be far above Gyuki and Kurama as even a charged TBB from Gyuki was flicked away as if no more than a fly (Ch. 611). Her casual Tailed Beast Bomb in its laser form plows through a combined barrage of Gyuki and Kurama's own; and even while diverted leaves an explosion and aftermath that dwarfs ranges in both height, length, and volume:

Chapter 611
Chapter 611

This is merely the first form of the Ten-Tails shown in the series chronology and notably weakened at that since it is still missing the full chakra of its remaining parts, those being Gyuki and Kurama. When it later evolves into what I will call V2, the sheer scale of its attacks makes it seems as if the V2 is from an entirely different, yet vastly more powerful series:

No Caption Provided
Chapter 613
Chapter 613

Note how in the former scan, the sensor unit's only method of comparison to comprehend the power of the Ten-Tails is as if it is a small planet that is fighting on the battlefield. Which is depicted in the bottom scan which makes the previous curvature shots seem like garbage. Kakashi, who was present for every showing before is amazed all over again noting that the previous power doesn't even begin to compare. And this is just it firing off its power randomly unfocused and uncontrolled.

Even still this is not over, as the Ten-Tails continues to ascend, reaching what we can call V3. Only now after fighting the Alliance for some time, does it begin to supercharge its bombs:

Chapter 630
Chapter 630

Note the dramatic increase in musculature, which was only shown previously on the head in V2, and afterward on its entire body in the lead up to the Tenpenchii. The Alliance is left at a loss of what to do, even Bee can't continue holding it back for long and all their strongest fighters are down. Until...

No Caption Provided

With his Flying Thunder God, Minato casually teleports a Tailed Beast Bomb capable of destroying at least a continent a country's worth of a distance away, mass, speed, power and all. Along with the rest of the former Hokage, this arrival turns the tide of the war. As they fully immobilize the Ten-Tails and create the Four Crimson-Ray Formation. A barrier that not only stops the Ten-Tails from moving, but can face-tank, and redirect the full power Tailed Beast Ball that the entire alliance before failed to stop:

No Caption Provided

Showing not only incredible speed but also incredible raw power and reserves from each Hokage. As contributing even a fourth of the power for this barrier is extremely impressive. But what does it look like when we focus this power down to just Minato? Let's begin breaking him down further.

==============================================

Flying Thunder God Part II: Establishing Minato's Superiority

Speed & Power:

As far as speed, I'll be arguing Minato as being at least high-end MHS+ in combat and being able to reach even higher if need be. In simpler terms, and current CV's lingo, this is mid to high-end quad mach. I'll use one of his more clear cut showings, at least in terms of scale. During his final battle before his death, Minato showed a clear superiority to a top tier of the universe in Obito:

Chapter 502
Chapter 502

This is incredibly impressive given that Minato could take on, outpace, and severely damage Obito to the point where a single Rasengan could tear his back open and practically sever his limb. (Ch. 503). For one, Obito has already called things like Tailed Beast Bombs slow compared to his speed (Ch. 595), and we've seen how fast those are, but furthermore, Obito could battle and outmatch Naruto, Kakashi, Bee, and Gated Guy all on his own,(Ch.595) who all have shown the capacity of speed to greatly outspeed multiple bombs themselves. Obito could even take blows and multiple Rasengan from Naruto and come out with bruises at worst. It took Naruto himself showing that mountain range level striking and speed just for Kakashi to compare him to Minato's relative base form.

Speed & Durability:

Minato only scales to and significantly above these Tailed Beast tier feats, since he mastered the same form Naruto has, with the other half of Kurama's power. That's not all I have to say for his speed, as I haven't even touched his speed feats in his KCM/BM. Minato could react to, and escape the overflow of the branches of the Divine Tree, and was stated to be even faster than Tobirama, the creator of the FTG.

No Caption Provided

This is notable given that Tobirama has shown to be able to react to and counteract the roots/branches of the Shinju. Being able to react and combat the roots of the Divine Tree, which travel at high quad-mach speeds around the planet to ensnare its targets. Note that it took Juubito to land a (somewhat blocked still) hit on Minato (he was distracted by Naruto and Sasuke) in the war when he could blitz the likes of Hashirama and Tobirama in his most uncontrolled state. Which leads me to talk about Minato's durability in his Chakra cloak, as Obito's basic chakra arms could destroy the Hokage's Crimson Ray Formation with absolute ease:

Chapter 638
Chapter 638

This is consistent with Naruto's cloak being able to protect the entire Shinbo Alliance from the Juubi's Tenpenchii. This is a culmination of the Ten-Tails's power up to that point; by interfering with the natural energy using its immeasurable amount of chakra, the Ten-Tails can simultaneously create a variety of natural disasters that devastate the surrounding area, with itself acting as their epicenter. The phenomena involved in this technique include earthquakes, floods, thunderstorms, and tornadoes. These concurrent events result in a blast akin to a nuclear explosion, even forming a vast mushroom cloud.

Suffice it to say, Minato is incredibly powerful, and benefits from direct feats and scaling that put him up there with the best of Naruto's top tiers. As such I don't think your pirate duo can afford to do any less than their best to put Minato down for the count. Overall I think this is a decent start to show how powerful he is. Like I said before though I won't make any solid claims or conclusions until you've had a chance to post. This should highlight what I want to say for now.

=========================================================

Flying Thunder God Part III: Establishing What's to Come

To start wrapping up this post, I'll detail a quick tidbit into how Minato approaches his battles, namely him vs multiple opponents at once:

Minato vs A, B, and Kumo Ninja:

No Caption Provided

In the above link, we see Minato's tactics when engaging opponents in combat. Here he elects to fight the opposing army (mainly A and B) alone. He starts the battle by spreading countless kunai across the battlefield while keeping a select few on his person. This enables him to constantly warp around the battlefield and keep ahead of his opponents, even when they can predict where he's going to land. From there he goes for immediate lethal blows to the body, and when the opportunity affords itself, marks his opponents so he can directly on top of them if need be. Using this strategy he quickly has both A and B on the backfoot despite their numbers advantage. With his notable speed and heightened attack potency, I doubt even your two pirates could take many blows from Minato, let alone match his sheer speed and teleportation. I'll leave that to you to prove though.

For now, I'll end my rant here, all this in mind, I think we have a solid idea of just how Minato fights, where he stands in the universe and how he incorporates his raw power with his sheer versatility. Combined they are a lethal force that I don't believe Doflamingo and Katakuri can hope to match, let alone outmatch. Still, that's all for now. Best of luck to us both!

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darthjhawk

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WhatIsWritten

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#22  Edited By WhatIsWritten

Not at all a fan of the scaling of normal kages to bijuu, but let’s see how it goes

Tag after posts

Edit: just reread this....oh boy.....

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shirso

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Great post as usual. Will be interesting to see how Will responds.

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@co-boss: Do you know what KCM and BM stand for and look like?

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HitTheAssasin

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Another different CaV? Oh well, T4V.

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Co-Boss

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#26  Edited By Co-Boss

@thevivas: yeah and minato only ever showed Bm, he turned into a kyuubi avatar in this form which was what BM was.

BM=bijuu mode

Kcm=kyuubi chakra mode

Both have the same orange tint and chakra, but for Naruto he gained a cloak in Bm, minato was wearing a cloak before going into Bm so that isn’t good enough to tell the difference between the two. The big difference between the two was the kyuubi avatar which is their bijuu mode. Minato could use the avatar in this form so it’s bijuu mode.

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maestromage

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Thought I had already asked to be tagged but I guess not. Great post as usual Darth, TAEP

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maestromage

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@co-boss: I think Darth said KCM to specify that Minato doesn’t have the avatar here.

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AnimeFreak1

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TheVivas

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@co-boss: Wrong. Having a cloak makes it KCM2, BM is only when he goes into the full Kurama avatar.

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floridaman29

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Interesting now to see the response

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FaradaySloth

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👑 DJH

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Co-Boss

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#34  Edited By Co-Boss

@thevivas: most people just consider that just the same form, he gains the cloak and Kurama’ and can summon the avatar. He doesn’t look any different between what you’re calling Kcm2 and when he is in the kyuubi avatar. In fact nothing changes about him between achieving the cloaked form until he goes BSM. So what makes you say that Kcm2 isn’t able to summon the avatar? (If this is going to be a long debate just PM me because this is a cav)

Also would what would we call BSM then? Because if Bm is just when he is in the avatar then what is it called when he isn’t in the avatar and using sage mode? KSCM2?

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Opener | A Necessary Evil

No Caption Provided

Throughout the story of One Piece, Monkey D. Luffy has faced his fair share of powerful opponents. From Pre Timeskip Villains like Enel and Rob Lucci to even Post Time Skip antagonists like Hody Jones and Caesar. However, even after winning countless battles, never before has the validity of Luffy's victory been called into question... until Luffy was pitted against Doflamingo and Katakuri. Doflamingo, a monster of physical strength and endurance with a versatile Devil fruit to boot. And Katakuri, Observation Haki specialist and one of the only One Piece characters to possess a special Paramecia. If not for the convenience of plot, Luffy's dream to become the Pirate King would've ended in Dressrosa or Whole Cake Island.

In both of those fights, Oda made something very clear about characters like Doffy and Katakuri. It was emphasized that superior physicality isn't the end all be all to all fights in One Piece. Doflamingo's endurance and awakening helped him to outlast Luffy's much faster and stronger Boundman form while Doffy was already severely weakened. Katakuri's Observation Haki and awakening was enough to keep up with and even gain the upperhand against the stronger Boundman and the faster Snakeman.

Going into this CaV and after reading my opponent's Minato opener, I can admit that Minato is the physical superior to both Doflamingo and Katakuri. However, if their fights against Gear 4th have shown me anything, it is that a physicality disparity isn't a game changer. Between Doflamingo's endurance and versatile set of powers and Katakuri's future sight and awakening, I think that these two New World Pirates have what it takes to beat the 4th Hokage.

For this opener, I am not really going to go in depth about Doflamingo and Katakuri's physical capabilities. Instead, I will focus more on the x-factors they bring to the table not only individually, but as a team.

Getting Around Speed

Observation Haki

The first step to cementing a victory over Minato is getting past his superior speed and mobility via FTG. It is for that very reason that I want to place emphasis on Observation Haki. At its most basic form, Observation Haki allows one to feel someone's "presence." This ability often manifests itself in the form of precognition and a heightened sense of awareness.

No Caption Provided

Even at its earliest stages, Observation Haki has been established as an ability that can circumvent a significant speed disadvantage. During Skypeia, where Observation Haki was established as "Mantra," we saw this put in practice. We first see Enel casually fodderize his priests at the same time.

No Caption Provided

Later, we see that same Enel get tagged dozens of times by Luffy once his Mantra is negged, essentially cementing a significant speed advantage for Luffy:

No Caption Provided

By these two showings, it should be safe to say that Luffy>>Enel>>His Priests in terms of speed. Or in other words, the speed difference between Luffy and Enel's Priests should be massive and they should get blitzed dozens of times over. And yet, one of the priests, Satori, was able to casually toy with both Luffy AND Sanji just by using his Mantra.

No Caption Provided

We know from that Doflamingo is able to use all three forms of Haki, including Observation Haki. Based on that alone, which is a rarity within the verse of One Piece, Doflamingo should be comfortably above Satori in Haki ability. And that's without taking into account the obvious difference in portrayal and status (underling to a Pre Time Skip villain vs a powerful warlord and infamous pirate of the New World). So, with Observation Haki, Doflamingo should have no problem dealing with opponents that should, for all intents and purposes, blitz him to high heaven.

If you want proof of this in action, look no further when Doffy fights Boundman. Despite Luffy moving massively FTE to Doffy over a city block's worth of distance, Doffy is still able to coat his face in Armament to defend at the last second despite the vast speed disparity. I'd like it to be known that this Doffy was severely weakened, taking an organ scrambling attack and blunt force punishment out the wazoo. Observation Haki, and Haki in general, is stamina based, so this showing is far from the limit of Doffy in terms of dealing with faster characters.

No Caption Provided

But, as stated before, this is far from the limit of Observation Haki. There are some that have mastered their Observation Haki so far to the point that they can actually see into the future. One of those characters is Charlotte Katakuri:

No Caption Provided

Katakuri is noted as being a master of Observation Haki, and it is this proficiency that actually forces Luffy to also advance his Haki skill. It is noteworthy that in Kizaru's databook entry, it was stated that only proficient Haki users can "grasp his movements." Note that that same databook entry, in addition to manga canon, confirms that Kizaru is in fact light speed. I am not asserting that Katakuri has light speed reactions, not at all. The reason I wanted to bring that up is that, portrayal wise, it shows that Oda intends for Observation Haki to be a speed equalizer of sorts. A way for characters to actually stand a fighting chance against a light speed Admiral who is the fastest in the verse.

I don't think I really need to provide feats for how beneficial seeing 5 seconds into the future mid fight would be against faster opponents. But, to cover my bases, here is Luffy who just unlocked Future Sight being able to dodge an barrage of attacks from Katakuri like nothing:

No Caption Provided

This was base form Luffy mind you, who was in critical condition. This is crazy impressive because up until that point Katakuri was tagging him left and right and even held his own against his faster forms.

I think I've made it pretty clear that Observation Haki is a great way to level the playing field against faster opponents. In order to truly overwhelm a proficient Haki user with speed alone, one would literally have to be magnitudes faster than them. While I admit Minato is faster, he isn't that much faster.

To be brief, both Doflamingo and Katakuri scale significantly above Luffy's Punk Hazard feat, a casually quad mach feat he accomplished in base form. Both scale even further beyond Brook's casual, point blank lightning timing. I mean Brook was scared to death seeing Doffy charge towards him and had to wait to be saved by Sanji... who then got fodderized and toyed with. Speaking of, Doflamingo himself has reacted to and sliced a point blank meteorite from Fujitora. Mid end quad mach speeds should be a solid placement for these two characters in all honesty. Punk Hazard speeds for base Luffy are consistent even in Dressrosa. Even Hakuba has a similar speed feat as well. And casual lightning timing mid tiers is consistent with a Pre Time Skip villain being lightning speed back at Skypeia.

So yeah, Observation Haki is a significant boon that can help to make up for some massive speed differences, and I don't see why Minato would be any exception. I can stress enough that Minato would have to at least be an order of magnitude faster than Doffy and Katakuri in orderto overcome their Observation Haki.

Battlefield Control

Another boon for Katakuri and Doflamingo when it comes to fighting against speedy characters is their Devil Fruit Awakening. It allows both of them to transform their surrounding environment into mochi and strings respectively.

Doflamingo can use his ability on a near city wide scale. Since the setting for this fight is Dressrosa, these scans should give you a good visual for how Doflamingo will use his Awakening. He can turn buildings into strings, spawn massive string spears from the ground, and even turn the very ground itself into string:

No Caption Provided

He can fire off string attacks by the dozens with his Awakening in play:

No Caption Provided

Doffy's battlefield control via his Awakening is immense. And for someone like Minato, whose main technique is throwing his Kunai around the battlefield to teleport around it, I think that navigating through a string filled Dressrosa will be a little hard for Minato. And that's just one member of my team.

Katakuri's awakening is arguably even more suited to countering speed types giving the sticky nature of his mochi. Katakuri has used this ability to catch a moving Luffy several times (1,2). Katakuri is no stranger to AoE, however. He can also suffocate his opponents with his molchi awakening:

No Caption Provided

So between the team's Observation Haki and Battlefield Control, I think Katakuri and Doffy are more than capable of dealing with Minato's speed and FTG mobility. The constantly manipulated battlefield will make it hard for Minato to effectively use FTG. And the combination of Doflamingo's string spear bombardments and Katakuri's sticky mochi attacks should make it that much harder for Minato to press a speed advantage.

Offensive Versatility

In addition to Awakening's, Doflamingo and Katakuri have other techniques that could prove very useful. For Doflamingo, it is the infamous Parasite String. He attaches unseen strands of string to his opponent which he can use to control their body like a puppeteer. Here he uses it to completely stop Sanji from moving with just a subtle twitch of his fingers:

No Caption Provided

And before you say that Minato can just flex out of these strings (which could be debatable because the only time someone has broken out of Parasite was when Luffy was in G4, which can just as easily be attributed to a rapid expansion of his body as opposed to raw strength), you would have to prove that Minato would know to do that. I mean Sanji, who is noted for his Observation Haki, didn't even know the strings were there and had no idea what Doflamingo had done to him.

This is the same Sanji who has 360 degree battlefield awareness, displayed when he instantly detected and blitzed a sniper 8 meters off the ground. Keep in mind, prior to this Sanji was talking with Viola and wasn't exactly poised for combat:

No Caption Provided

Doflamingo also has potent piercing attacks, which he can use while also using Parasite. As shown previously, unnamed string attacks from Doffy can slice through a meteorite like swiss cheese. And the Birdcage, strings that aren't visibly coated in Haki and that are made from the strings of the Black Knight (so it's not like these strings are his most powerful, not by a long shot), can neg the KE of a small mountain sized meteorite just by impact. The size of the meteorite is relative to Pica's torso, so we know that it is that size.

No Caption Provided

This feat is mountain +-multi mountain levels in piercing, and Doflamingo's more powerful attacks like the God Thread and the visibly Haki enhanced strings should be above this. I haven't seen Minato's piercing feats, so from what I've seen thus far, Doflamingo's string attacks should deal significant damage.

Katakuri has his Power Molchi attacks, each one being able to significantly hurt Boundman Luffy. These attacks should be above mountain level considering island splitting attacks didn't really phase Thriller Bark Luffy. Not to mention that Katakuri's Haki was shown to be far superior to Luffy's while they were both using regular Haki amped attacks, Luffy hurting himself just clashing. For reference, Luffy's base form Haki could defend against stabs from Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers without anywhere near as much trouble (who Luffy admitted had the strongest Haki he had seen thus far, meaning Cracker's stabs>Doffy's strings).

Oh and Katakuri can spam these attacks:

No Caption Provided

I think Katakuri's Power Molchi spam should be able to tax Minato' durability. On top of that, Doffy's string attacks seem to be a fight ender unless Minato has piercing durability feats I am not aware of. And the Parasite String should be the perfect opening to set up for Power Molchi spam or a named string attack from Doffy.

Initial Thoughts

So with this opener, I hope I've established that this very much a winnable fight for my team. They are proficient in Observation Haki, which has been shown to make up for vast speed gaps by relative fodder. They also have Awakening, which can further help counter Minato's mobility via FTG and his raw movement speed. The level of battlefield control they both have individually would be troublesome for Minato by itself, but when used together, I think Minato will have quite the tough time maneuvering around the constantly shifting battlefield. Doffy has Parasite String, which as far as I know, is a valid way to leave Minato open for a follow up attack. This follow up attack can be Doffy's named string attacks, which I assume would one shot (again, I am open to see what else you will show for Minato) or Katakuri's Power Molchi spam, which could whittle down Minato's durability.

In my next post, I will elaborate on the defensive aspects of my opponent's arsenal, namely endurance and Katakuri's molchi defenses.

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Taep

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#38 darthjhawk  Moderator

@defiant_will: Round 2 my friend.

The Flying Thunder God Book II: The Yellow Flash Strikes Twice

No Caption Provided

Book II Prologue: Creating an Opening/The Fundamentals

So here we are and round two, and this is proceeding curiously. Both because there are things I expected you to argue, and things I wholeheartedly believed you wouldn't acquiesce Namely Minato's physical advantages, as well as general attack potency. Something I do feel you undersold though, and perhaps this may be due to lack of research on your part or maybe I did not show it quite as clearly as I thought, but the sheer versatility of Flying Thunder God provides not only numerous offensive options but as well as a litany of defensive outlets. Much of your strategy relied on first using Observation Haki to predict and counter Minato's actions. Then use a combination of the duo's awakening + parasite string to subdue and leave Minato open to being pummeled.

However, the boon of instant teleportation is that it totally removes Minato from this dimension and transports him through a void back into wherever he chooses with his markings, without bringing his baggage with him. As such he can't be bound. Whether it is from a chain/string-like object or even something as potent as being sucked into another time-space:

Chapter 502
Chapter 502

The latter of which I would find far superior than mochi or parasite strings. Which would dismantle the key second step of your plan which is negating Minato's speed and mobility:

I think Katakuri and Doffy are more than capable of dealing with Minato's speed and FTG mobility. The constantly manipulated battlefield will make it hard for Minato to effectively use FTG. And the combination of Doflamingo's string spear bombardments and Katakuri's sticky mochi attacks should make it that much harder for Minato to press a speed advantage.

Especially since Minato can make markings anywhere, from his kunai to the ground, to even people/his opponents. No matter how the battlefield changes, Minato can always use FTG. And this is assuming he even gets caught in the first place, since as mentioned you already conceded the significant physical advantage to him despite the abilities of your duo:

I can admit that Minato is the physical superior to both Doflamingo and Katakuri.

Now I know you said more on why physicals aren't everything and I would be inclined to agree. However like I said when starting this off, it seems like you sorely underestimated the versatility of Minato's arsenal and his intelligence. So let's kick this post off detailing just that.

Post Breakdown/Abstract:

Flying Thunder God Book IIColumn Head
FTG Chapter IVFlying Thunder God & Versatility Expansion
FTG Chapter VCounterarguments/Rebuttals
FTG Chapter VIOpening Strategy & Gameplan

Flying Thunder God Chapter IV: The Namesake

The Flying Thunder God Technique is a space-time ninjutsu created by Tobirama Senju but arguably perfected by Minato. As Tobirama said himself that Minato is even better at teleporting than he is:

No Caption Provided

And let me remind you that Tobirama has shown to be able to react to and counteract the roots/branches of the Shinju. Being able to react and combat the roots of the Divine Tree, which travel at high quad-mach speeds around the planet to ensnare its targets. (Ch. 646)We're talking upwards of Mach 6-7000 at the very least. And this is just Minato base usage of the technique.

Anything that the user is holding, contacting, or that is linked with their chakra will teleport with them, should they choose to do so:

No Caption Provided

However Minato can also choose to teleport himself and others to a different location than the objects, or they can teleport objects and attacks without teleporting themselves.

There is seemingly no effective limit to how many targets can be marked with technique formulas, as Minato routinely uses dozens at a time. (Ch.242) A user's shadow clones can also be used in tandem with the technique to launch them at the speed of teleportation in conjunction with attacks:

No Caption Provided

In particular, this showing in which Minato essentially blitzes everyone relevant in the war up to the point, namely KCM/BM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Hiruzen, Tobirama, Sage Mode Hashirama, and Edo Rinnegan Madara. This technique is named Flying Thunder God: Slash. A technique combining the use of a bladed weapon and space-time ninjutsu. The user teleports to a marked target, with weapon in hand, to instantaneously deliver a swift, devastating slash to his opponent. Because of the speed of the technique's execution, not even an individual wielding the Sharingan, along with the Rinnegan or even Sage Mode have enough reaction time or even sensory capabilities to detect, let alone defend themselves against this technique.

In combat situations, the Flying Thunder God can most effectively be used by marking an opponent's body with the technique formula, allowing the user to teleport to them at any time: when the marked opponent tries to attack, the user can attack them first. This is what allowed Minato to turn what should have been a mutual strike into a onesided affair by someone who can read and predict his future movements, namely Obito as I showed in my opener:

Chapter 502
Chapter 502

Conversely, when the marked opponent tries to escape, the user can instantly appear virtually on top of them. While trying to find an opportunity to mark opponents, the Flying Thunder God also gives users a defensive option, as they can teleport away from an opponent's attacks. As I showed above, and in my opener. To take advantage of this, the technique formula is often applied to projectile weapons, such as Minato's special kunai, which can quickly be scattered around a battlefield to create several teleportation destinations that can be escaped to and subsequently attacked from.

As I mentioned before, this makes Minato's FTG the most dangerous ability on the board here, as it virtually negates almost every form of attack your team has, because he doesn't need to resort to raw stats to deal with them, even speed. But combining them with his speed and attack potency makes it almost impossible to endure blows from him. Conversely, he can't be pinned, he can't be bound, and he certainly cannot be subdued.

Notably, these also show incredible intelligence on his part, as with Obito, Minato directly stated that Kamui was a superior jutsu to his own, and yet due to him being able to break down its fundamental components, along with Obito's fighting style; Minao completely shuts him down. This versatility and intelligence combined with power will be what leads Minato being able to counter the duo.

=========================================================

Flying Thunder God Chapter V: Fire Shadow vs Warlord & Commander

FTG vs Observation Haki: Kinetic vs Static:

So yeah, Observation Haki is a significant boon that can help to make up for some massive speed differences, and I don't see why Minato would be any exception. I can stress enough that Minato would have to at least be an order of magnitude faster than Doffy and Katakuri in order to overcome their Observation Haki.

Yes, Observation Haki, the first crucial step to set up your win condition. However, it has its drawbacks. Most notably that unless the user is completely calm and focused they become unable to use it to its best output (Ch. 884). It does not process multiple events at once, but rather one event or image at a time,(Ch.862) which is why Katakuri was unable to see Sanji dodging him. As well as being able to be overcome by sheer speed as you showed with Enel and his priests. Along with if they unable to counter the event, the observation becomes somewhat useless.

This is what I call the "Static" nature of Observation Haki in that its biggest flaw is that it doesn't always compensate for the commital to one action, be it offensive or defensive. And doesn't compensate for when that action fails like with Sanji/Katakuri or here with Snakeman (Ch.895). The fluidity of movement and sudden acceleration are surefire counters for it, something which Minato has in spades. As once again I'll display the feat against Obito.

is is what allowed Minato to turn what should have been a mutual strike into a onesided affair by someone who can read and predict his future movements, namely Obito as I showed in my opener:

Chapter 502
Chapter 502

Note that Minato aimed for a mutual strike as both had committed to one. Minato's Rasengan vs Obito's Kamui. The difference here is that as they both launch their attacks Minato then teleports while in motion, changing the entire script and what Obito had both read and predicted would happen in the future with the Sharingan. This is despite the Sharingan's Kinetic Vision, something that has what I feel Observation Haki lacks. The fluidity of reading, responding and adapting to kinetic movement. Take not here in its first major descriptive usage:

Chapter 230
Chapter 230

Note how Sasuke says he could not catch Naruto's movements blitz beforehand. However with the Sharingan, the user can see the movements down to the finest muscle tension, and as such can correctly place their body or counter in the perfect spot to strike back against their opponent. This would compensate for not only a speed disadvantage but also supplement a speed advantage given that it will allow the user to see the opponent's counter before they can make it. And Obito himself has used his Sharingan to great effect against four opponents at once

Chapter 595
Chapter 595

Yet Minato still caught him totally off guard by having those three main factors. Vastly superior speed, rapid fluidity, and adaptation or movement and extreme sudden acceleration due to FTG. Simply put counters such as this:

. So, with Observation Haki, Doflamingo should have no problem dealing with opponents that should, for all intents and purposes, blitz him to high heaven.

Katakuri is noted as being a master of Observation Haki, and it is this proficiency that actually forces Luffy to also advance his Haki skill. It is noteworthy that in Kizaru's databook entry, it was stated that only proficient Haki users can "grasp his movement

Don't mean much to me when all you're focusing on is raw speed. And I'm not sure why you say Minato isn't that much faster when his base form is teetering on the very edge of high quad mach, greatly surpassing your PH/Brook scaling as he scales to faster feats without even applying his Kurama Cloak.

Mastery of the Battlefield:

Doffy's battlefield control via his Awakening is immense. And for someone like Minato, whose main technique is throwing his Kunai around the battlefield to teleport around it, I think that navigating through a string filled Dressrosa will be a little hard for Minato. And that's just one member of my team.

To be honest I'm not sure why you're mentioning Doflamingo's awakening as part of an opening strategy when it isn't in-character for him to go to unless as an absolute last resort after nearly being beaten by Gear Fourth. Only having the chance to go to it by outlasting Luffy in their first round. He resorted to things like Birdcage long before awakening. He isn't like Katakuri who will use his awakening as quickly as possible. If you can honestly tell me Doflamingo would do this to start a fight, I'd have to question that honesty. Regardless Minato can have his kunai be countries away or even teleport the strings along with whatever is connected to them (Doflamingo himself across the battlefield and away from the main fight. So trying to subdue him that while being connected to the strings can backfire terribly for your team and disrupt their perfect teamwork instantly.

This isn't even mentioning the speed gap between them as so far I have seen nothing that stops Minato from blitzing past the strings and marking Doffy himself. Especially since he already moves completely FTE to a squadron of high quad mach characters in KCM.

Katakuri's awakening is arguably even more suited to countering speed types giving the sticky nature of his mochi. Katakuri has used this ability to catch a moving Luffy several times (1,2). Katakuri is no stranger to AoE, however. He can also suffocate his opponents with his molchi awakening:

Katakuri's mochi can be countered in the same way, as Minato can teleport things of greater mass and density traveling at much higher speeds instantly. Namely Kurama's Tailed Beast Bombs:

Chapter 502
Chapter 502

He can also teleport things that are right on top of him, that move faster and activate their effects (atomization) faster than said TBB in Juudara's Truth-Seeking Orbs and separate them from himself without even having arms. Another insane speed feat, in base no less.

Mastery of Versatility:

And before you say that Minato can just flex out of these strings (which could be debatable because the only time someone has broken out of Parasite was when Luffy was in G4, which can just as easily be attributed to a rapid expansion of his body as opposed to raw strength), you would have to prove that Minato would know to do that. I mean Sanji, who is noted for his Observation Haki, didn't even know the strings were there and had no idea what Doflamingo had done to him.

I see what you're trying to go for by predicting my argument, you should have known that I don't even have to play this game with you. Because as soon as Minato feels any sort of restrictiveness he is going to teleport away. That is his go-to move for any situation when even his slightest physical movement could potentially be hindered. I would post the scans again, but if you don't get the point by now I would be worried. This direct counter is in the first section of this post if you need a reminder.

Doflamingo also has potent piercing attacks, which he can use while also using Parasite. As shown previously, unnamed string attacks from Doffy can slice through a meteorite like swiss cheese. And the Birdcage, strings that aren't visibly coated in Haki and that are made from the strings of the Black Knight (so it's not like these strings are his most powerful, not by a long shot), can neg the KE of a small mountain-sized meteorite just by the impact. The size of the meteorite is relative to Pica's torso, so we know that it is that size.

This feat is mountain +-multi mountain levels in piercing, and Doflamingo's more powerful attacks like the God Thread and the visibly Haki enhanced strings should be above this. I haven't seen Minato's piercing feats, so from what I've seen thus far, Doflamingo's string attacks should deal significant damage.

I think Katakuri's Power Molchi spam should be able to tax Minato' durability. On top of that, Doffy's string attacks seem to be a fight ender unless Minato has piercing durability feats I am not aware of. And the Parasite String should be the perfect opening to set up for Power Molchi spam or a named string attack from Doffy.

I'll cover both bases at once. For these arguments to have any weight to me, you'd have to prove that the strings could pierce through Minato's chakra cloak. As his cloak no-sold the combined force of KCM's Naruto Rasenshuriken (stronger than his punches so auto multi-mountain combined with EMS Sasuke's Amaterasu that harmed that Juubi (a country level character in all stats in her weakest form):

Chapter 641
Chapter 641

As well as scaling above the much weaker cloaks of Naruto that enabled the entire Shinobi Alliance to tank the Juubi's Tenpenchii:

Chapter 628
Chapter 628

A culmination of the Juubi's chakra up to this point that is more powerful than its continental Tailed Beast Bombs. Even lowballing this feat by using the diminished area= lower damage argument this is at least an island level feat that fodder could tank thanks to Naruto's cloak and Minato scales above all of them given he has a focused cloak here and isn't sharing with anyone.

==============================================

Flying Thunder God Chapter VI: Beginning of the End

So with this opener, I hope I've established that this very much a winnable fight for my team. They are proficient in Observation Haki, which has been shown to make up for vast speed gaps by relative fodder. They also have Awakening, which can further help counter Minato's mobility via FTG and his raw movement speed. The level of battlefield control they both have individually would be troublesome for Minato by itself, but when used together, I think Minato will have quite the tough time maneuvering around the constantly shifting battlefield. Doffy has Parasite String, which as far as I know, is a valid way to leave Minato open for a follow up attack. This follow up attack can be Doffy's named string attacks, which I assume would one shot (again, I am open to see what else you will show for Minato) or Katakuri's Power Molchi spam, which could whittle down Minato's durability.

Unfortunately for you, I feel you haven't provided sufficient evidence to convince me of any of these in the slightest. You seemed to come into this post banking on me relying mostly on your concession to Minato's stat advantage. But you seem to have greatly underestimated the sheer scope of the Flying Thunder God and just how effective it is in both an offensive and defensive fashion.

Now I'd like to give some insight into how I plan for Minato to approach this battle. Which of course starts with spreading kunai across the entirety of Dressrosa. For a relative showing he spread kunai across multiple corners of the Frost Country without anyone noticing and across a massive distance:

No Caption Provided

There is a kunai at each corner of the barrier, and Minato has a seemingly endless supply and uses dozens at once as shown with A. He would solo armies with these vast number of markings and kunai. Minato would fight for literal days and never run out. And don't forget he can mark people too.

From there Minato is going to strive to take down both pirates systematically and swiftly. He doesn't mess around. He has a quick and efficient fighting style that aims for lethal quick shots at all times. This is reflected in his battle with A:

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Notice he spreads dozens upon dozens of the markings around the battlefield at once. Then once A commits to trying to blitz him, Minato throws one kunai around A's back, teleports far away to gain distance and by the time A realizes he missed Minato teleports back to the kunai he threw back and goes for a kill shot immediately. A is only saved by B's intervention, but Minato turns this around by instead marking B directly without either noticing. And this is despite Minato's enemies having full knowledge and prepared strategies to counter him. Yet he was still able to dismantle them.

Hell Obito grew up and studied directly under him, even having that along with an ability that was directly superior to his and being able to predict his movements with precog yet still was stomped. If these people have all these advantages and still fail against Minato, I can't expect Katakuri and Doflamingo to do any better since they have to deal with a Minato who is worlds apart from the one shown here, without losing a step.

=========================================================

I'll leave it here for now and turn it back to you. Can't wait to get to round 3!

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Rebuttal | A "New World" of Pain

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Well well well. I will say that you made an interesting counter, Darth. You took quite the unexpected route in that rebuttal, pressing FTG rather than speed. To be quite honest, I feel like that was a mistake on your part. Doflamingo's and Katakuri's abilities are actually nigh perfectly suited to dealing with someone like Minato, who abuses FTG. And since your whole game plan is contingent on FTG spam, if that is dealt with, Doffy and Katakuri should be able to snag a win.

Defending Observation Haki

Obviously, Observation Haki plays a key part in dealing with Minato's teleportation, and I think you recognize this as well. Your counters to Observation Haki were quite questionable to me, however. It seemed you disregarded some context with your rebuttals and tried to downplay the advantages of Observation Haki.

Before I fully get into that, I'd like to say, straight up, that FTG isn't going to work the way you want it to. Minato can attach the marks to the ground (which will be constantly shifting and manipulating to the will of Katakuri and Doffy, meaning they can actually choose where Minato will teleport relative to them) or to Doffy and Katakuri themselves (doubtful because you didn't counter Haki's defense against superior speed, so I don't think Minato is blitzing over to Doffy and Kat and marking them without any pushback). The only real way for Minato to abuse FTG is by throwing dozens of them around the battlefield. And that tactic isn't going to work against Haki users like Doffy and Katakuri.

To give you some perspective, a fresh out of the time skip Luffy could casually weave through Hody's water bullets with his Haki. It was said that he actually knew where the attacks were going. Keep in mind these are the same water bullets that could cross Fishman Island in seconds.

No Caption Provided

Using Observation Haki to predict where fast moving projectiles are going to go is pretty standard for New World Pirates. And keep in mind, this version of Luffy was so inexperienced with Haki that he couldn't even protect himself from Hody's bite. It is fair to assume that Doffy and Katakuri would have no trouble dealing with the vastly slower Kunai being thrown around the battlefield.

With this knowledge through Haki, Doffy can simply destroy the Kunai while they are in the air with his bullet string:

Bullet String Spam (while in an awkward position after being kicked)
Bullet String Spam (while in an awkward position after being kicked)

Katakuri can destroy them as well with his Power Molchi spam:

No Caption Provided

So right off the bat, I'd call into question if Minato is truly capable of the FTG mobility you are arguing because the kunai that are essential to his teleportation can be quite easily countered. The inexperienced with Haki Luffy could casually predict where far faster projectiles would go, so I can't stress how effortless destroying these kunai would be for Doflamingo and Katakuri.

But, let's say this outcome isn't effective for whatever reason. Your argument against Observation Haki countering FTG teleportation was by citing every single "weakness" of Observation Haki, no matter how irrelevant. Let's address that right quick:

Yes, Observation Haki, the first crucial step to set up your win condition. However, it has its drawbacks. Most notably that unless the user is completely calm and focused they become unable to use it to its best output (Ch. 884).

Which shouldn't be a problem for Haki users of Doffy and Katakuri's caliber, fighters who will be fighting completely seriously and not underestimate their opposition (like Kat did to Luffy at the beginning of their fight). I don't think Doffy has exemplified problems with focusing. Even when he was offguard against a blitzing Gear 4th, he still used Haki effectively. To be blunt, I think you are grasping at straws here, and that only continues with your next few counters:

It does not process multiple events at once, but rather one event or image at a time,(Ch.862) which is why Katakuri was unable to see Sanji dodging him.

Cool. How is that exploitable for Minato in anyway, shape, or form? I reckon this is tied to that "kinetic vs static" argument, but I'll get to that soon.

As well as being able to be overcome by sheer speed as you showed with Enel and his priests.

No, no, no. Stop. Don't do that.

If Enel blitzed his priests with pure speed, why was the much faster Luffy unable to do that (to Satori)? Enel was faster than his priests, don't get me wrong (he is literally lightning speed via his devil fruit). But his far superior Observation Haki helped to supplement that speed advantage. Luffy didn't even know what Haki was at that point and wouldn't unlock it until arcs later, hence him being completely outmaneuvered by Satori despite being able to blitz Enel dozens of times over after negging Enel's Observation Haki.

I know you know this so don't try and paint a false picture to suit your narrative.

Along with if they unable to counter the event, the observation becomes somewhat useless.

I question relevancy. It's not like you showed any wide scale AoE attacks from Minato, so what's the scenario where Katakuri and Doflamingo are unable to counter his attacks?

Alright so after addressing the "weaknesses" of Observation Haki, let's take a deeper dive into your overall point about the "static" nature of Observation Haki. Which, quite frankly, I don't understand.

This is what I call the "Static" nature of Observation Haki in that its biggest flaw is that it doesn't always compensate for the commital to one action, be it offensive or defensive. And doesn't compensate for when that action fails like with Sanji/Katakuri or here with Snakeman (Ch.895).

Oh. My. God.

Okay, so I never understood why people reference the Sanji instance as a big disadvantage for Observation Haki. Katakuri was flicking a jellybean at speeds one could barely justify as supersonic (note that Sanji, even PTS, can effortlessly dodge point blank gunshots). Even if Katakuri had his Haki fixed on Sanji, it can't compensate for the slow speed of the jellybean compared to Sanji's own exceptional reaction time. The nail in the coffin is that Sanji himself is an Observation Haki specialist. Given all of this, it is perfectly understandable that Sanji wasn't tagged by Katakuri's jellybean.

Katakuri foresaw where Sanji was going to dodge and shot the jellybean there, I can agree with that. But Sanji dodging said projectile, the likes of which he has doing since Pre Time Skip, isn't a knock against Katakuri's Observation Haki. I doubt that this weakness can be exploited in a practical fashion by Minato.

As for Snakeman, he got tagged a couple of times by an ability he didn't yet understand. And even then, he still coated his face in Haki to defend at the last second, so it does compensate for when the action fails. As we all know, when Katakuri understood the ability, the fight changed completely.

The fluidity of movement and sudden acceleration are surefire counters for it, something which Minato has in spades.

Hmm. Why does this sound so familiar? "Sudden acceleration" almost sounds like what Snakeman can do while stretching. And fluidity of movement? Snakeman seemed to have that too. I guess by your logic, Katakuri should be pummeled to death by constantly and suddenly accelerating, erratic yet fluid moving punches. But look what Katakuri did when faced with four of these attacks simultaneously:

No Caption Provided

Well, that's awkward.

Doflamingo actually has experience dealing with teleporting fighters to boot. Look at Law, for instance. Law was borderline spamming teleportation against Doflamingo via his Room ability, and each time Doflamingo casually countered it, even going as far as to say that those attacks flat out won't work against him (1,2).

The takeaway from that showing is that Doflamingo's Haki allows him a great deal of spacial awareness. Minato and Law's teleportation are both object based (Minato teleporting to marks, Law switching places with other things). Keeping track of the environment around you, down to the smallest pebble thrown behind your back, is something that Doflamingo is very much capable of doing, casually at that. Thus, I find it unlikely that FTG would completely overwhelm Doflamingo like you are trying to argue here.

I think I've said all I need to say, really. I don't think it is as easy to circumvent Observation Haki as you are arguing it to be. The Obito comparison also doesn't work because Observation Haki is, well, far superior to the Sharingan in terms of dealing with speedy opponents, and just superior in general.

You tried to sneak in this little argument about speed at the end, despite coming at me for only addressing raw speed:

Don't mean much to me when all you're focusing on is raw speed. And I'm not sure why you say Minato isn't that much faster when his base form is teetering on the very edge of high quad mach, greatly surpassing your PH/Brook scaling as he scales to faster feats without even applying his Kurama Cloak.

PH has been calced at Mach 1-2k and was performed casually by base Luffy. Even Pre Time Skip, Gear Second has given Luffy enough speed to contend with and overwhelm fighters that would relentlessly blitz his base form otherwise (Lucci as the best example). And that's not even factoring in Gear 4th, which Doffy and Katakuri were able to, at the very least, hold their own against.

As shown with Satori and Luffy, the speed advantage has to be ridiculously massive (superior to outmaneuvering the guy that lolblitzed the guy that casually blitzed you). Luffy tagged Enel dozens of time straight with raw speed, and Enel casually blitzed 4 priests at the same time. Yet one priest casually outmaneuvered Luffy.

Maintaining Battlefield Control

You didn't really go too in depth with your counters against Awakening, so this will be relatively short:

To be honest I'm not sure why you're mentioning Doflamingo's awakening as part of an opening strategy when it isn't in-character for him to go to unless as an absolute last resort after nearly being beaten by Gear Fourth. Only having the chance to go to it by outlasting Luffy in their first round. He resorted to things like Birdcage long before awakening.

This... isn't a very fair assessment. Doflamingo is a very cocky and arrogant fighter. Before Luffy used G4, Doflamingo wasn't taking him seriously at all. The dude was laughing at a head on Bazooka from Luffy. Even when Luffy transformed into G4, before he attacked him, Doflamingo literally couldn't stop himself from laughing at him.

But once Doflamingo actually got serious, he used his Awakening. No more wisecracks or chuckles. Doflamingo was so serious that he immediately went to try and kill Luffy after the G4 time limit ran out:

No Caption Provided

A serious Doflamingo is more than willing to use and abuse his Awakening from jump. And that becomes even more likely considereing he is working alongside someone who also abuses his Awakening, so it would be stupid and unrealistic for Doflamingo to not also use his Awakening to help Katakuri.

He isn't like Katakuri who will use his awakening as quickly as possible. If you can honestly tell me Doflamingo would do this to start a fight, I'd have to question that honesty. Regardless Minato can have his kunai be countries away or even teleport the strings along with whatever is connected to them (Doflamingo himself across the battlefield and away from the main fight. So trying to subdue him that while being connected to the strings can backfire terribly for your team and disrupt their perfect teamwork instantly.

Wait. Can you show me that the teleportation range is that massive. I mean Minato would be teleporting himself, all of the strings connected to his body that reach back to Doffy, and Doffy himself. Doffy isn't exactly going to be point blank with Minato in this scenario, mind you. He can probably teleport himself and the strings, but that's nothing.

Even if he could do that... why does that matter? As I've said, I doubt Minato's kunai will land anywhere near Doffy and Katakuri (if anywhere at all) before they are hit out of the air. Being teleported across the battlefield is a stretch in that regard given that Doffy and Katatkuri won't allow the kunai to even reach that far. And it's not like Minato has prep time, so he won't have the luxury of setting up his kunai across the battlefield.

This isn't even mentioning the speed gap between them as so far I have seen nothing that stops Minato from blitzing past the strings and marking Doffy himself.

Which is weird to me because I dedicated a whole section talking about how Haki allows one to circumvent massive speed advantages, even when used by relative fodder.

And as said before, the speed disparity isn't as big as you are making it out to be. Doffy and Katakuri scale significantly above the casually quad mach base Luffy and have both outsped his Gear Second form (remember that GS is essentially fast enough to blitz base form Luffy).

Especially since he already moves completely FTE to a squadron of high quad mach characters in KCM.

Have you been ignoring what I've been saying?

A fatigued Doffy, whose Haki was not where it should've been, still defended against an attack from Gear 4th... immediately after Luffy had moved massively FTE to him over a city block + worth of distance.

Satori got fodderized by Enel, who was blitzed DOZENS OF TIMES OVER by Luffy. And Satori toyed with that same Luffy. I know I'm repeating these two points, but I am doing so to place emphasis on it because I don't think you quite understand the implications of these feats, practically.

Minato would, quite literally, have to be at least an order of magnitude faster than Doffy and Katakuri to circumvent Observation Haki.

Katakuri's mochi can be countered in the same way, as Minato can teleport things of greater mass and density traveling at much higher speeds instantly. Namely Kurama's Tailed Beast Bombs

Cool. But the Molchi was never really meant to finish Minato off, just to create openings for follow up attacks. So Minato will undoubtedly be able to teleport away, but being caught in molchi is bound to create openings over the course of the fight.

Like I said in my opener, Minato has to deal with two different Awakenings at the same time. String spear spam by the dozens on a nigh city wide scale. And sticky molchi that can counter blitz attempts and create openings for either to exploit, even if only for a second.

Putting Minato Down

I see what you're trying to go for by predicting my argument, you should have known that I don't even have to play this game with you. Because as soon as Minato feels any sort of restrictiveness he is going to teleport away. That is his go-to move for any situation when even his slightest physical movement could potentially be hindered. I would post the scans again, but if you don't get the point by now I would be worried. This direct counter is in the first section of this post if you need a reminder.

Yes, Darth, I am aware. Parasite isn't the end all, be all. It, like the molchi, is meant to create openings. Simple as that. It's not a win condition, by any stretch. Minato doesn't have any knowledge of Parasite, let alone Doffy and Kat. As soon as he is rendered unable to move out of the blue, he is going to be caught off guard and confused. In that moment, no matter how brief, Doffy and Katakuri can make their move.

I'll cover both bases at once. For these arguments to have any weight to me, you'd have to prove that the strings could pierce through Minato's chakra cloak. As his cloak no-sold the combined force of KCM's Naruto Rasenshuriken (stronger than his punches so auto multi-mountain combined with EMS Sasuke's Amaterasu that harmed that Juubi (a country level character in all stats in her weakest form):

Woah. First off, Amaterasu is a heat based attack. How is that, in any way, shape or form, relevant to Minato's piercing durability.

As for the Rasenshuriken, I am kind of shocked that you would bring up "multi-mountain level" anything when talking about tanking Doffy's strings. Doffy's strings, without any visible Haki coating, already yielded multi mountain level piercing potency simply by being in a stationary position.

Doffy's string attacks, fast enough to cross islands in an instant, would yield vastly more piercing potential:

No Caption Provided

And that's ignoring the God Threads, which are visibly coated in Doflamingo's Haki.

A culmination of the Juubi's chakra up to this point that is more powerful than its continental Tailed Beast Bombs. Even lowballing this feat by using the diminished area= lower damage argument this is at least an island level feat that fodder could tank thanks to Naruto's cloak and Minato scales above all of them given he has a focused cloak here and isn't sharing with anyone.

But isn't that attack energy based? Don't get me wrong, it would also pack concussive force as well... but neither of those things translates to piercing durability. Especially that the piercing potency of the strings is focused into a very very small area. On the topic of that, tanking an AoE attack from the Juubi isn't the best feat to show to try and counter Doffy's strings.

The Battle At Hand

You seemed to come into this post banking on me relying mostly on your concession to Minato's stat advantage. But you seem to have greatly underestimated the sheer scope of the Flying Thunder God and just how effective it is in both an offensive and defensive fashion.

To be honest, you would've been better off pressing Minato's stat advantage, however insignificant it may be. Quite frankly, people like Doffy and Katakuri hard counter FTG.

Which of course starts with spreading kunai across the entirety of Dressrosa.

They get shot down and destroyed easily, so no. But let's continue:

For a relative showing he spread kunai across multiple corners of the Frost Country without anyone noticing and across a massive distance:

I don't know what you are arguing here, exactly. Are you going for a speed argument, throwing the kunai faster than high end quad mach characters can perceive? Or are you going for the stealth argument where Minato can throw Kunai without anyone noticing.

Both arguments are questionable, but I'll wait to see what you have to say before I commit to a counter. The first argument speaks for itself in this regard. The second one seems a bit more likely (at least from my perspective), but Minato is literally standing in front of Doffy and Katakuri (two observation Haki users), in their field of vision.

There is a kunai at each corner of the barrier, and Minato has a seemingly endless supply and uses dozens at once as shown with A. He would solo armies with these vast number of markings and kunai. Minato would fight for literal days and never run out. And don't forget he can mark people too.

The only thing relevant is the marking people aspect. I find it unlikely that Minato will actually get to CQC distance given Doffy and Katakuri's formidable ranged attacks (Awakening, String Attacks, Power Molchi, etc.) along with their Haki.

With Katakuri, it gets even worst for Minato as he can turn parts of his body into Molchi to defend against getting tagged. He used this to counter a Kong Organ:

No Caption Provided

From there Minato is going to strive to take down both pirates systematically and swiftly. He doesn't mess around. He has a quick and efficient fighting style that aims for lethal quick shots at all times. This is reflected in his battle with A:

Notice he spreads dozens upon dozens of the markings around the battlefield at once. Then once A commits to trying to blitz him, Minato throws one kunai around A's back, teleports far away to gain distance and by the time A realizes he missed Minato teleports back to the kunai he threw back and goes for a kill shot immediately. A is only saved by B's intervention, but Minato turns this around by instead marking B directly without either noticing. And this is despite Minato's enemies having full knowledge and prepared strategies to counter him. Yet he was still able to dismantle them.

This is your picture perfect scenario, but it isn't likely. Doffy and Katakuri have control of the entire battlefield, possess Haki, and have ranged attacks out the wazoo that can be spammed. They are a completely different type of fighter than A and B.

Hell Obito grew up and studied directly under him, even having that along with an ability that was directly superior to his and being able to predict his movements with precog yet still was stomped. If these people have all these advantages and still fail against Minato, I can't expect Katakuri and Doflamingo to do any better since they have to deal with a Minato who is worlds apart from the one shown here, without losing a step.

Why are you comparing Obito to Doffy and Katakuri. I know you are going for the portrayal argument, but like with A and B, Doffy and Katakuri are worlds apart from Obito in every relevant aspect of fighting.

So how does the battle go down? Minato spams Kunai, they get destroyed. Minato tries to mark the battlefield, Awakening is used to shift the markings into an advantageous position. The constantly moving battlefield would also make it hard for Minato to mark the ground and maneuver in the way he is used to, which would make it very hard to adapt to as well. The only option with FTG is to mark Doffy and Katakuri via speed blitz, which is also unlikely. Haki can counter vast speed disadvantages and the ranged options can keep Minato at bay. Parasite String or molchi restraint can give way for a follow up string attack from Doflamingo. Hell, Katakuri can spam Power Molchi to circumvent mobility disadvantages as he did with Boundman. These won't completely blitz Minato and all of them may not hit their mark, but the openings are what I am trying to get at here. Creating openings to set up for more lethal attacks is what makes Doffy and Katakuri such a dangerous duo. And both can exploit said openings as well, quite easily in fact. Doffy did so when fighting alongside his Black Knight and Katakuri did that when Luffy was going to transform into Boundman.

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@citgo:

TAEP= They'll tag you after every post they make

T4V= They'll tag you for votes at the end

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@citgo:

I'm about to PM you alright

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TAEP & T4V

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We Voting now?

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#48  Edited By defiant_will
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T4v