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#1 Edited by Defiant_Will (1132 posts) - - Show Bio
"Vision" from the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Represented by Defiant_Will
"Iron Man" from the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Represented by GilgameshThePimp

RULES

  • Vision is Morals Off
  • Iron Man is IW Version and is In Character
  • Fight to K.O. or Death
  • Fighters are in their Unamped, Prime
  • Fighters Start 20 Feet Apart

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#2 Posted by Chronicplane (9050 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP.

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#3 Posted by Defiant_Will (1132 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#4 Edited by deactivated-5c6c427da31ab (357 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#5 Posted by stumerica (164 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#7 Posted by APEX_pretador (20333 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by Subline (7864 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't Vision just power drain him like he did to Rhodes?

Anyway, TAEP.

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#9 Posted by blackpantherisb (7130 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#10 Posted by RikuYamaha (1480 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#11 Posted by geekryan (4514 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#12 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#13 Posted by Darkthunder (2102 posts) - - Show Bio

TV4

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#14 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

Tony "Iron Man" Stark: Genius, Billionaire, Playboy, Philanthropist

No Caption Provided

"It's working, we're safe, America is secure. You want my property, you can't have it, but I did you a big favour! I've successfully privatised world peace!

Loading Video...

Now since this is an in-universe CaV, I will be doing this a bit differently and comparing Vision to Tony directly, showing why one machine will stand, and one shall fall.

Strength:

For this segment I will spilt it into raw punching power and comparing Tony's firepower to that of what the Mind Stone has shown.

Captain America: Civil War
Captain America: Civil War

In terms of raw punching power, Vision's best feat is probably staggering Giant-Man, which whilst impressive in it's own right, isn't gonna be enough to match Tony.

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

Cause when push comes to shove, in terms of both feats and in-universe logic, causing Thanos to bleed when not a soul (excluding Thor) could even hope to accomplish that in IW, says all you really need to know about Tony's superior striking strength.

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Both from Captain America: Civil War

As for the Mind Stone, it's best feat is plowing through a tower control and Civil War War Machine, so let's start comparing.

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Iron Man 3 Prelude #1

Now in terms of War Machine, his best explosive durability feat is imo, this feat from the tie-in comics, but fortunately, Tony has more than matched.

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

These explosives used to visible stagger Thanos and just the size of the explosions in general shows that this is just as good as what Rhodey took, if nor better.

And keep in mind that was the Civil War version of War Machine that Vision destroyed, a suit much weaker than his the other WM suits (if we apply this logic to Tony regarding different suits, it'd make sense for Rhodey to follow the same pattern), so it's not as impressive as it may appear at a first glance, and something Tony can definitely overcome.

Durability:

Now here's a clear win for Tony, as on both blunt force and heat durability, the Mark L is clearly superior in this department.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Both from Captain America: Cvil War

Now in terms of Vision's best durability, he has being plowed into the dirt by Scarlet Witch for blunt force and...being stunned by Hawkeye for energy/heat durability. Yeah, I may forgotten something regarding heat, but these aren't anything Tony hasn't replicated just as good, if not better, especially on the energy side of things.

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

Let's get the easy one done first, in terms of energy durability, Tony's tanked this giant flamethrower from Thanos himself, launching him 10s of hundreds of metres. More than enough to say he has better heat resistance than Vision, and enough to say that he could certainly take a couple Mind Stone blasts without much issue.

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

And in regards to blunt force, Tony did manage to take a pretty brutal beating from a Power Stone boosted Thanos, which considering Thanos even without the power stone, completely annihilated Hulk in no time flat, is quite impressive for reasons that I can elaborate on if needed, and should be enough to more than match Vision's best.

Speed:

Now speed is interesting, cause tbh, from what I remember, Vision doesn't have that many speed feats, at least none worth really mentioning around Tony, which means that The Iron Man can quite frankly dance around Vision, never letting him get a decent tag in.

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

Travel speed, whilst obviously being not as vital to a battle, is something I'm 99% sure Vision is way worse in, given Tony's ability to chase a space ship in what was most 10-20 seconds, pretty cut and dry feat.

So with that in mind, I'm gonna use this segment to spend some covering something which may come up later, that being me scaling the Bleeding Edge to the other suits. Whilst admittedly their's not much to this scaling, it's made pretty clear throughout Infinity War that the Mark L is the most technically advanced of any suit, and you could argue some suits where purpose built for certain aspects, and something the BE wouldn't really be as adjusted to, at least on a fundamental it should be better than the ones in at the very least Iron Man 1.

Iron Man 1
Iron Man 1

So with that in mind, let's take a look back 10 years or so (gods it still feels surreal saying that), and discuss a classic feat, that being Iron Man's tank dodge, a mach 3-4 reaction speed feat which Vision doesn't really have an equivalent to.

Phasing:

So I figured since this is gonna be vital to this battle and your main plain of attack, might as well make this it's own separate category and demonstrate how Tony can work around it.

Now whilst phasing is incredibly annoying, it's clearly not infallible, Vision's been shown to be quite vulnerable to electricity, as I've already shown in the durability segment (if he wasn't that affected then he would've simply phased past the electricity, which he clearly couldn't do, otherwise he would've), and we've never actually seen Vision flat out phase through energy attacks before, so it's not unlikely that a large amount of explosives/heat could potentially do some levels of damage to Vision even by essentially 'overtaxing' what the phasing can actually phase against.

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

And if Tony is forced to use drastic measures, Tony could potentially resort to using his Nitrogen to freeze the area where Vision is whilst he's phased, leaving him unable to unphase and possibly freezing him whilst he's essentially air.

Ultimately I'd like to see what you try and attempt with Phasing, but right off the bat Tony does have methods of dealing with it, wether it be Nitrogen, raw firepower, or just running away to which Vision couldn't hope to keep up with, waiting for when Vision tries to use his Mind Stone and ultimately leave him wide open for an explosive to the face.

Conclusion:

  1. Tony is strong enough to quite frankly one-shot Vision with any decent explosive
  2. Iron Man can take all of Vision's punishment
  3. Stark is leagues faster, and will make it nigh-impossible for Vision to land a decent blow wether it be ranged or up close.
  4. The only real argument for Vision is phasing, which won't be enough as Tony has the means around it
You're up.
You're up.

This suit up scene never gets old :).

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#15 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26953 posts) - - Show Bio

Dammit I wanted to debunk Vision lowballing. Oh well, one day.

T4V

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#17 Posted by JSDoctor (1633 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#18 Posted by Subline (7864 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice, clean short post - just finished reading.

Will refrain from commenting too much until Votes.

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#19 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#20 Posted by Defiant_Will (1132 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps:Okay, I'm excited for this CaV, so this post will be up sooner than I anticipated:

VISION | THE ANDROID AVENGER

"I wish to understand it. The more I do, the less it controls me. One day, who knows? I may even control it."

BIO

Vision was an android who possessed a synthetic vibranium body created by Ultron and Helen Cho, along with the powerful space gem known as the Mind Stone. Originally conceived as the perfect form for Ultron, the body was stolen by the Avengers, after which it was repurposed by Tony Stark and Bruce Banner, who uploaded the remnants of Stark's personal A.I. J.A.R.V.I.S. into it. Upon his birth, Vision declared he was a mixture of Ultron and J.A.R.V.I.S., one that would fight to protect humanity at all costs.

POWERS AND ABILITIES

Possessing one of the five Infinity Stones, Vision is granted a slew of powers and abilities that allow him an unparalleled amount of versatility and adaptability in combat.

To start things off, Vision's most famous ability his is intangibility. This ability is pretty self explanatory and makes Vision immune to almost all physical attacks. There are numerous instances of this, but I will only be covering the ones relevant to combat:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  1. Vision effortlessly phases through all of Hawkeye's attacks. This is impressive because Vision only made specific parts of his body intangible, requiring uncanny amounts of precision and perception. In addition, this scene also conveys a severe disparity in speed, as Vision was practically toying with Hawkeye, quite literally walking through all of his attacks despite Hawkeye being a seasoned, S.H.I.E.L.D. trained martial artist who has held his own against the likes of super soldier tier characters like Black Panther.
  2. Vision shows how his intangibility can be used offensively, phasing through an Ultron Bot before ripping him apart from the inside. This is a sure fire way to one shot Iron Man as it bypasses conventional durability, leaving Iron Man with little answer to an attack of this nature.

Another trademark ability of Vision's is his ability to increase his density. This ability is also self explanatory and increases Vision's durability to absurd levels. I mean he was able to no sell a bus that was hit towards him. In fact, the bus split in two when hitting Vision and it came to a complete halt, which means that not only did Vision decimate a moving bus by just standing there, but he also completely overpowered the kinetic energy of said moving bus, again by just standing there. This is a feat that I don't see even Infinity War Iron Man replicating with raw durability alone, so this feat is very impressive to say the least.

No Caption Provided

Finally, we come to Vision's energy projection. While he doesn't use this as often as his other abilities, it is still very powerful in its own right and can do some serious damage to Iron Man if he isn't careful. Sure, Iron Man has tanked a condensed explosive attack from Thanos before, but that isn't remotely comparable to Vision's Mind Stone blast. It is not as concentrated as Vision's Mind Stone attack. Thanos' attack nearly encompassed Iron Man's whole body while the size of Vision's energy blast is comparable to size of the Mind Stone on his FOREHEAD. This is relevant because these two attacks are comparable to each other in AP, piercing and melting through metal. However, while Thanos' attack did a good amount of damage to a wider area, Vision's energy blast will inherently deal more damage to a smaller area given how small the attack is in comparison. I don't think Iron Man's suit can tank an attack comparable to Thanos' condescended explosion aimed at one small spot on his suit, something Vision is easily capable of replicating with his Mind Stone energy blast.

No Caption Provided

COUNTERS

Now that I've made my opening case for Vision, and before I get to my initial thoughts, there are somethings, I wanted to address that my opponent brought up:

Cause when push comes to shove, in terms of both feats and in-universe logic, causing Thanos to bleed when not a soul (excluding Thor) could even hope to accomplish that in IW, says all you really need to know about Tony's superior striking strength.

Fair point, though I don't think Iron Man can pull off striking strength off this magnitude casually. Once or twice, sure, but to think that every punch Iron Man throws will be this powerful is absurd.

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If you rewatch the fight, you could see how much effort Iron Man had to put into landing that punch. First off, Iron Man had an crazy amount of momentum when using that punch. He literally used the momentum of his jump to turn about 180 degrees before landing that punch. The wind up for that attack is unreal, which is solidified by Thanos' following line: "All that for a drop of blood," poking fun at all of the effort Iron Man put into landing that attack only for it to only draw a single drop of blood.

And this is of course assuming Iron Man will be able to land a punch on Vision without it being phased through by Vision. Bare in mind, Vision was able to walk through all of the attacks of a highly skilled S.H.I.E.L.D. operative, so he should have no problem doing the same to Iron Man.

More than enough to say he has better heat resistance than Vision, and enough to say that he could certainly take a couple Mind Stone blasts without much issue.

Quite the contrary my friend. As I have proven already, despite being comparable in power, since the Mind Stone is a more concentrated attack, it will do more damage to a smaller area, thereby damaging Iron Man's suit.

And in regards to blunt force, Tony did manage to take a pretty brutal beating from a Power Stone boosted Thanos, which considering Thanos even without the power stone, completely annihilated Hulk in no time flat, is quite impressive for reasons that I can elaborate on if needed, and should be enough to more than match Vision's best.

Unfortunately for you, this isn't really a battle of strength since Vision has attacks in his arsenal that bypass durability.

So with that in mind, I'm gonna use this segment to spend some covering something which may come up later, that being me scaling the Bleeding Edge to the other suits. Whilst admittedly their's not much to this scaling, it's made pretty clear throughout Infinity War that the Mark L is the most technically advanced of any suit, and you could argue some suits where purpose built for certain aspects, and something the BE wouldn't really be as adjusted to, at least on a fundamental it should be better than the ones in at the very least Iron Man 1.

Very well. Sounds good so far.

So with that in mind, let's take a look back 10 years or so (gods it still feels surreal saying that), and discuss a classic feat, that being Iron Man's tank dodge, a mach 3-4 reaction speed feat which Vision doesn't really have an equivalent to.

Hold on. This isn't impressive in the slightest my friend. For one, Iron Man aim dodged the tank shell, seeing as how he could see the tank aiming right at him for a good few seconds before it fired. And even then, Iron Man only side stepped the shell, moving not even a foot while the actual tank shell had to cross a much larger distance. Lastly, this feat isn't really combat applicable because in combat, we have seen him struggle against people like Captain America and Winter Soldier. If Iron Man was really mach 3-4 in reactions, he wouldn't be overwhelmed in CQC by mere super soldiers.

Now whilst phasing is incredibly annoying, it's clearly not infallible, Vision's been shown to be quite vulnerable to electricity, as I've already shown in the durability segment (if he wasn't that affected then he would've simply phased past the electricity, which he clearly couldn't do, otherwise he would've), and we've never actually seen Vision flat out phase through energy attacks before, so it's not unlikely that a large amount of explosives/heat could potentially do some levels of damage to Vision even by essentially 'overtaxing' what the phasing can actually phase against.

Umm, wut. First of all, Hawkeye's arrows were specifically designed to restrain Vision. I mean Hawkeye has never used such arrows before, and has only used them against Vision before they never were heard of again. They weren't even used against Iron Man, who you'd think would be the best person to use them against. Another thing that supports this argument is the way the scene is written, with Hawkeye clearly not phased that Vision was restrained.

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Also, may I remind you that Iron Man doesn't know Vision's weaknesses. I mean Ultron created him and Iron Man would have no need to investigate into Vision's weaknesses given their trust for each other and the fact that they are normally on the same side, as can be seen during Civil War.

Even if explosives could bypass Vision's intangibility, not only does Iron Man not know this, but he also rarely uses such attacks in 1v1 scenarios, resorting to CQC the majority of the time.

INITIAL THOUGHTS

Overall, I don't see how Vision doesn't win this fight. His phasing abilities can be used offensively and defensively and are not only a sure fire way to take out Iron Man, but also serve as the perfect counter to anything Iron Man can throw at him. Vision's density manipulation, which to be honest I'm not even sure is needed in hindsight given how his intangibility counters any blunt force attacks thrown at him, is another viable way to counter Iron Man's blunt force attacks as a failsafe. Lastly, Vision's mind stone attack is most definitely capable of damaging Iron Man's suit and can do some profound damage to Tony.

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#21 Posted by Defiant_Will (1132 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Defiant_Will (1132 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

@defiant_will: Wicked. I'll be prioritising both IRL stuff and tourney matches so I might take a bit, but I'll get to this eventually.

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#24 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26953 posts) - - Show Bio

This turns out really good. TAEP.

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#26 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice openers so far

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#27 Posted by Ouroborik (3574 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#28 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

Counter Post: Creator vs Creation

No Caption Provided

Powers/Abilities:

Vision effortlessly phases through all of Hawkeye's attacks. This is impressive because Vision only made specific parts of his body intangible, requiring uncanny amounts of precision and perception.

Given Tony's ability to produce giant AOE's, Vision gonna be forced to go full intangible basically all the time, which leaves Vision unable to use the Mind Stone given how he's never used it whilst intangible. It'd also leave Tony an easy weak spot for him to blast with an explosive.

In addition, this scene also conveys a severe disparity in speed, as Vision was practically toying with Hawkeye, quite literally walking through all of his attacks despite Hawkeye being a seasoned, S.H.I.E.L.D. trained martial artist who has held his own against the likes of super soldier tier characters like Black Panther.

I like to think that I've shown that Super Solider's are not even close to Tony's level, so this is hardly impressive when considering the sheer physical gap.

Loading Video...

(the first 30ish seconds are all that are relevant).

And even if you wanna argue the skill gap, Tony's fight pattern analyser (he should still have this given how it's connected to F.R.I.D.A.Y, not the civil suit itself) will do wonders in closing whatever gap Vision could have in skill.

Vision shows how his intangibility can be used offensively, phasing through an Ultron Bot before ripping him apart from the inside. This is a sure fire way to one shot Iron Man as it bypasses conventional durability, leaving Iron Man with little answer to an attack of this nature.

Fortunately, as I mentioned earlier, this leaves Vision with only his flight to tag his opponents with, allowing Tony to quickly realise what happened and leg it asap, with Vision having no chance to keeping pace and allowing Tony to come up with a means around it via something like weakness scanning.

I mean he was able to no sell a bus that was hit towards him. In fact, the bus split in two when hitting Vision and it came to a complete halt, which means that not only did Vision decimate a moving bus by just standing there, but he also completely overpowered the kinetic energy of said moving bus, again by just standing there. This is a feat that I don't see even Infinity War Iron Man replicating with raw durability alone, so this feat is very impressive to say the least.

I mean in terms of raw damage, I don't see how this is that much better than a Power Gem boosted Thanos, if better at all. Again, considering the demolishment he gave Hulk. And whilst obviously Tony didn't no-sell them like how Vision did this, the scale of the attack is more than enough to compensate. And this doesn't stop a good old fashioned explosive from one-shotting Vision via heat.

Sure, Iron Man has tanked a condensed explosive attack from Thanos before, but that isn't remotely comparable to Vision's Mind Stone blast. It is not as concentrated as Vision's Mind Stone attack. Thanos' attack nearly encompassed Iron Man's whole body while the size of Vision's energy blast is comparable to size of the Mind Stone on his FOREHEAD. This is relevant because these two attacks are comparable to each other in AP, piercing and melting through metal. However, while Thanos' attack did a good amount of damage to a wider area, Vision's energy blast will inherently deal more damage to a smaller area given how small the attack is in comparison. I don't think Iron Man's suit can tank an attack comparable to Thanos' condescended explosion aimed at one small spot on his suit, something Vision is easily capable of replicating with his Mind Stone energy blast.

I wouldn't say that it's "isn't remotely incomparable" per say, and I see where your coming from, but I don't think the difference will really be enough. For starters, the actual damage output, as presented by the gifs we use, are hardly distant, though I would put Thanos' showing at a higher standard, given the distance it sent Tony, combined with he in-universe logic of the Power Stone being logically stronger than the Mind Stone by virtue of hype and it being called, well, the Power Stone.

However regarding the pinpoint vs AOE argument, I feel like the difference with that would make would only really start to become relevant once Vision starts applying relatively long-term pressure to the suit in one-go, given how if it's only for 1 second then it doesn't really amount to much afaik, and given Tony's already impressive durability, as well as speed which Vision has no feats of tagging someone that fast, makes me wonder if Vision will be able to do any long term damage like you think it will.

Your Counters:

Fair point, though I don't think Iron Man can pull off striking strength off this magnitude casually. Once or twice, sure, but to think that every punch Iron Man throws will be this powerful is absurd. If you rewatch the fight, you could see how much effort Iron Man had to put into landing that punch. First off, Iron Man had an crazy amount of momentum when using that punch. He literally used the momentum of his jump to turn about 180 degrees before landing that punch. The wind up for that attack is unreal, which is solidified by Thanos' following line: "All that for a drop of blood," poking fun at all of the effort Iron Man put into landing that attack only for it to only draw a single drop of blood.

Honestly these are all fair points, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't know going in that I used the highest of high-end feats for Tony, but even with less momentum built up, Tony can still do some major damage.

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

Take the instance we're he clearly staggers Cull Obsidian for a couple seconds, a dude who's barely phased by being hit by something as powerful as Hulkbuster, all from basically a stand still and with a single uppercut. This should still show that, should Tony get a punch in even without momentum, he could still rip apart Vision without any real trouble.

And this is of course assuming Iron Man will be able to land a punch on Vision without it being phased through by Vision. Bare in mind, Vision was able to walk through all of the attacks of a highly skilled S.H.I.E.L.D. operative, so he should have no problem doing the same to Iron Man.

The problem with that is not only did Vision clearly have a grossly high stat-gap in that instance, but he could see most of Hawkeye's attacks coming, and could react accordingly, not how Tony's speeds and versatility will allow Vision to replicate this.

Quite the contrary my friend. As I have proven already, despite being comparable in power, since the Mind Stone is a more concentrated attack, it will do more damage to a smaller area, thereby damaging Iron Man's suit.

Already discussed.

Unfortunately for you, this isn't really a battle of strength since Vision has attacks in his arsenal that bypass durability.

Fair enough, but still a plus for Tony nonetheless should Vision feel stupid enough to try that.

Hold on. This isn't impressive in the slightest my friend. For one, Iron Man aim dodged the tank shell, seeing as how he could see the tank aiming right at him for a good few seconds before it fired.

Notice the line of smoke
Notice the line of smoke

Nah, cause if you freeze frame the scene, it's clear that Tony only dodged after the tank shell was fired, so even if he could see the tank beforehand, it isn't really relevant.

And even then, Iron Man only side stepped the shell, moving not even a foot while the actual tank shell had to cross a much larger distance.

Still counts as a wicked reaction speed feat, which is what I was toting it as. I posted something for travel speed in my opener:

Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Infinity War

And as for combat speed, being able to fly around these high speed meteors Thanos brought down should be more than enough to reconfirm my stance of Tony dancing around Vision.

Lastly, this feat isn't really combat applicable because in combat, we have seen him struggle against people like Captain America and Winter Soldier. If Iron Man was really mach 3-4 in reactions, he wouldn't be overwhelmed in CQC by mere super soldiers.

Only when he's in in of his weakest suits, give Tony basically any other suit (and remove all of the context from that fight) and it would've been a lot easier for him, so trying to lowball him through that showing isn't really going to work here, nor does it make sense for Tony to bring his strongest suit to a place he had no intentions of fighting in the first place.

Umm, wut. First of all, Hawkeye's arrows were specifically designed to restrain Vision. I mean Hawkeye has never used such arrows before, and has only used them against Vision before they never were heard of again.

Ok then, any sources to actually back up that these were anti-Vision arrows, or is this just a case of Hawkeye only using a type of arrow one time?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
From Age of Ultron and Avengers 1 respectively

Not like it'd be a one time thing for Clint, dude has used multiple arrows, such as the 2 shown above, which we never saw again.

They weren't even used against Iron Man, who you'd think would be the best person to use them against.

Loading Video...

In theory maybe, but in practice, yeah.....This speaks for itself.

Another thing that supports this argument is the way the scene is written, with Hawkeye clearly not phased that Vision was restrained.

My point still remains that Vision clearly couldn't just phase through the electricity after being hit by it, otherwise he would've. Saying they were anti-Vision arrows are borderline head-canon.

Conclusion:

In the end, Tony wins this for the same reasons as before.

  1. Vision's gonna have one hell of a time trying to tag Tony, given his leagues better speed.
  2. Tony still has means around Visio's phasing, such as his Nitrogen, which you provided no counter to, and any good explosive or punch will annihilate him.
  3. Vision hasn't shown the ability to use the Mind Stone and phasing at the same time, giving only 2 options for victory, and only 1 he can use at a time, making it easy for Tony to play around Vision.

Simply put, Tony is simply operates on a level higher than Vision, and has outs to what he brings to the table.

Time for Round 2
Time for Round 2

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#29 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11724 posts) - - Show Bio

That's the second time, what the hell is going on...

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#31 Posted by Chronicplane (9050 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice post.

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#32 Posted by RikuYamaha (1480 posts) - - Show Bio

nice post

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#33 Posted by Defiant_Will (1132 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps:

REBUTTAL | THE VISION OF THE FUTURE

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Given Tony's ability to produce giant AOE's, Vision gonna be forced to go full intangible basically all the time, which leaves Vision unable to use the Mind Stone given how he's never used it whilst intangible. It'd also leave Tony an easy weak spot for him to blast with an explosive.

Okay, but when has Tony ever used AoEs in a 1v1 fight? Against Iron Monger, Whiplash, Thor, Killian, Ultron, Captain America, and Thanos, he has always resorted to CQC and rarely, if ever made use of ranged attacks, let alone AoE attacks. You are arguing Iron Man completely out of character here.

I like to think that I've shown that Super Solider's are not even close to Tony's level, so this is hardly impressive when considering the sheer physical gap.

Sure, there is a strength and durability gap, but that wasn't what I was getting at. When it comes to skill and combat speed, the super soldier's are at the very least comparable if not superior to Iron Man. Captain America was able to outright dominate Iron Man in CQC, combining both his superior skill and combat speed to overwhelm Iron Man. It wasn't until Iron Man used his fighting pattern analyzer that that Iron Man was able to reverse the situation, and I will address that aspect below:

And even if you wanna argue the skill gap, Tony's fight pattern analyser (he should still have this given how it's connected to F.R.I.D.A.Y, not the civil suit itself) will do wonders in closing whatever gap Vision could have in skill.

Okay, for one, Iron Man only uses this under very specific circumstances. For one, he only uses it when he is completely under pressure and as a last resort. This is proven by the fact that Iron Man didn't use it earlier on in the fight, when it would be most advantageous, and only used it at the last possible second against Captain America, when his back was quite literally against the wall. Two, Iron Man only uses this ability against skilled martial artist. He didn't use it against Thanos when he was getting absolutely wrecked, and you would think that that would be the best time to use it.

Now, assuming for some out of character reason, Iron Man does decide to it right off the bat, it takes quite some time to work and Vision would actually have to be close enough and be in the midst of fighting for it to scan properly. This is detrimental because, Vision has his one shot intangibility attacks that can kill Iron Man before it finishes scanning. I mean Vision will already be at point blank range and will already be fighting Tony by the time Iron Man decides to scan his fighting style (these are the conditions that must be met for it to work), so it isn't a stretch to say that Vision will be able to kill Tony before the scan stops.

Fortunately, as I mentioned earlier, this leaves Vision with only his flight to tag his opponents with, allowing Tony to quickly realise what happened and leg it asap, with Vision having no chance to keeping pace and allowing Tony to come up with a means around it via something like weakness scanning.

Realize what happened? If Vision tags Iron Man with an intangible attack, it's game over. Also weakness scanning isn't a viable way to find Vision's supposed weakness at all. Think about it, weakness scan only worked against a large, clunky, poorly built and basically designed Iron Monger armor. It would take quite a load of mental gymnastics to conclude this scan would work on Vision, an highly advanced android made of synthetic Vibranium.

And this doesn't stop a good old fashioned explosive from one-shotting Vision via heat.

Give me a scan of Iron Man using explosives consistently in a 1v1 fight, then we can talk.

I wouldn't say that it's "isn't remotely incomparable" per say, and I see where your coming from, but I don't think the difference will really be enough. For starters, the actual damage output, as presented by the gifs we use, are hardly distant, though I would put Thanos' showing at a higher standard, given the distance it sent Tony, combined with he in-universe logic of the Power Stone being logically stronger than the Mind Stone by virtue of hype and it being called, well, the Power Stone.

But Thanos didn't use a blast from the Power Stone, he just redirected Iron Man's explosion in a concentrated form. Thus, it wouldn't contradict in universe logic for the Mind Stone blast to be more powerful than a concentrated explosion.

However regarding the pinpoint vs AOE argument, I feel like the difference with that would make would only really start to become relevant once Vision starts applying relatively long-term pressure to the suit in one-go, given how if it's only for 1 second then it doesn't really amount to much afaik,

Ehh. I don't know about that. I don't see the duration of an attack is relevant here. Pinpoint attacks will always be stronger than AoE attacks if they have the same potency. Pinpoint attacks will be able to do a lot more damage to a smaller area than an AoE attack would do to a wider area. So saying that Vision will need long-term pressure to deal damage feels unsubstantiated.

Take the instance we're he clearly staggers Cull Obsidian for a couple seconds, a dude who's barely phased by being hit by something as powerful as Hulkbuster, all from basically a stand still and with a single uppercut. This should still show that, should Tony get a punch in even without momentum, he could still rip apart Vision without any real trouble.

Cool. Still don't see how blunt force is getting past intangibility though.

The problem with that is not only did Vision clearly have a grossly high stat-gap in that instance, but he could see most of Hawkeye's attacks coming, and could react accordingly, not how Tony's speeds and versatility will allow Vision to replicate this.

If you actually rewatched the gif I presented, you would know that Vision did not abuse his strength or durability until the very end. Up until that point, he was able to casually walk through all of Hawkeye's attacks with his intangibility. Also, given Hawkeye's martial art skill, it would be pretty hard to see his attacks coming if one didn't have some semblance of skills themselves. And this especially applies for Vision since he also needs to precisely make some part of his body intangible.

Nah, cause if you freeze frame the scene, it's clear that Tony only dodged after the tank shell was fired, so even if he could see the tank beforehand, it isn't really relevant.

Notice how his legs and back are positioned. It is clear Tony was in the midst of moving in the freeze frame.

And as for combat speed, being able to fly around these high speed meteors Thanos brought down should be more than enough to reconfirm my stance of Tony dancing around Vision.

The same "high speed meteors" that even Spider-Man was evading? Okay sir. Also, Iron Man has never "danced" around anyone in combat. In the same movie where this feat originated from, Iron Man was being dominated by Thanos. Thanos, who has no combat speed feats on that level at all. Also, flying around high speed meteorites doesn't apply to combat speed in any way, shape or form, ecspecially since Iron Man doesn't really abuse his flight in 1v1 scenarios.

Only when he's in in of his weakest suits, give Tony basically any other suit (and remove all of the context from that fight) and it would've been a lot easier for him, so trying to lowball him through that showing isn't really going to work here, nor does it make sense for Tony to bring his strongest suit to a place he had no intentions of fighting in the first place.

Okay, so maybe this reasoning would work for strength or durability scaling, but reaction speed? Idk how being in different suits of armor increases or decreases your reaction speed tbh. I mean Iron Man having Mach 3-4 reactions in one suit and then being blitzed by super soldiers in the next makes no sense to me.

Ok then, any sources to actually back up that these were anti-Vision arrows, or is this just a case of Hawkeye only using a type of arrow one time?

I mean besides the fact that Hawkeye knew that they would hold Vision, Hawkeye has a history of creating arrows for specific circumstances like his S.H.I.E.L.D. hacking arrow.

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In theory maybe, but in practice, yeah.....This speaks for itself.

My bad, I meant Black Panther, who would be the perfect person to use them against seeing as how the Black Panther suit isn't the most durable suit energy wise.

CONCLUSION

My conclusion from my opener still stands.

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#34 Posted by Defiant_Will (1132 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by Subline (7864 posts) - - Show Bio

All good posts so far.

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#36 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

Closer: Age of Machinery

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Counters:

Okay, but when has Tony ever used AoEs in a 1v1 fight? Against Iron Monger, Whiplash, Thor, Killian, Ultron, Captain America, and Thanos, he has always resorted to CQC and rarely, if ever made use of ranged attacks, let alone AoE attacks. You are arguing Iron Man completely out of character here.

Not necessarily, there's plenty of examples to Tony sticking mostly with projectiles in fights against groups and on individual targets, ranging from:

  1. the Airport fight in CW (he clearly shows in this instance to use projectiles over punching out, Clint or Wanda as an example)
  2. against all the drones in AOU (he he really was punch first, lasers second, we would've used his fists against the bots, not practically exclusively use lasers, especially since he still did that to the ones he took down individually, not just used lasers on clusters of bots).
  3. the terrorists in IM1 (only punched a grand total of 2 times),
  4. most of the New York fight in Avengers 1 (dude didn't smack a single Chitauri)
  5. hell even in the fight against Cap and Bucky he still mixed some projectiles/repulsers alongside the H2H.
  6. And he clearly tried to use explosives against Thanos as I've shown, and discovered he could use it against him (which Vision can't do with Phasing, only avoid the explosion), so he knew he couldn't spam that stuff. He only went H2H as a last resort.

So ultimately, their are plenty of instances of Tony preferring to use projectiles to deal with individual opponents.

Sure, there is a strength and durability gap, but that wasn't what I was getting at. When it comes to skill and combat speed, the super soldier's are at the very least comparable if not superior to Iron Man. Captain America was able to outright dominate Iron Man in CQC, combining both his superior skill and combat speed to overwhelm Iron Man. It wasn't until Iron Man used his fighting pattern analyze that that Iron Man was able to reverse the situation, and I will address that aspect below:

Could not disagree more with this, no way Tony's only on Super Solider levels, dude only had a 2v1 due to both the CW suit, and the fact that the fight was heavily in Cap and Bucky's favour, given Tony's destroyed flight capabilities, the tight arena and H2H requirements which even I'll admit Tony is worse a in regards to pure skill. To put it one way, if Cap or Bucky switched roles with Tony, you honestly think they'd last nearly as long? And even if I conceded this, the IW suit is leagues ahead of any suit, as I've established so this kind of lowballing doesn't really work.

Okay, for one, Iron Man only uses this under very specific circumstances. For one, he only uses it when he is completely under pressure and as a last resort.This is proven by the fact that Iron Man didn't use it earlier on in the fight, when it would be most advantageous, and only used it at the last possible second against Captain America, when his back was quite literally against the wall.

If Tony can't find a way to out Vision by himself, he can easily resort to this method should he need it. This isn't his primary way of discovering an out to intangibility (Tony can do that fine solo tbh), just an extra bit spice thrown on should he need it.

Two, Iron Man only uses this ability against skilled martial artist.

If we're claiming Vision>Hawkeye in skill, then he would be a skilled martial artist would he not?

He didn't use it against Thanos when he was getting absolutely wrecked, and you would think that that would be the best time to use it.

That was a case of Tony knowing what he was going against, and thus he seemingly didn't need to us it, unlike here where it could very much be useful in figuring out what Vision is up-to given the no knowledge situation. It also helps that any time he went for H2H he either had help or it didn't last all that long, or at least nit as long as his fight with Cap or Bucky, so it's likely the system didn't have time to.

Now, assuming for some out of character reason, Iron Man does decide to it right off the bat, it takes quite some time to work and Vision would actually have to be close enough and be in the midst of fighting for it to scan properly. This is detrimental because, Vision has his one shot intangibility attacks that can kill Iron Man before it finishes scanning. I mean Vision will already be at point blank range and will already be fighting Tony by the time Iron Man decides to scan his fighting style (these are the conditions that must be met for it to work), so it isn't a stretch to say that Vision will be able to kill Tony before the scan stops.

Nothing's stopping Tony from just playing keep away, not he like doesn't have the speed to just run away from Vision and figure out a battle plan. And so long as Tony doesn't stand completely still whilst Vision's phasing out his heart, I can't see it doing anything that significant.

Realize what happened? If Vision tags Iron Man with an intangible attack, it's game over.

Realise that Vision essentially ghosted through all of his explosives, not like it's undetectable to the normal eye, and someone as smart as Tony can quickly pick up on this, even without F.R.I.D.A.Y.

Also weakness scanning isn't a viable way to find Vision's supposed weakness at all. Think about it, weakness scan only worked against a large, clunky, poorly built and basically designed Iron Monger armor. It would take quite a load of mental gymnastics to conclude this scan would work on Vision, an highly advanced android made of synthetic Vibranium.

It'd still be able to analyse what Vision is made of, and then Tony can apply his own intellect to conclude what Vision's doing and apply the tools around.

Give me a scan of Iron Man using explosives consistently in a 1v1 fight, then we can talk.

Already showed that, whilst they as a whole aren't 1v1s, Tony is quite ok with using his projectiles against individual opponents.

But Thanos didn't use a blast from the Power Stone, he just redirected Iron Man's explosion in a concentrated form. Thus, it wouldn't contradict in universe logic for the Mind Stone blast to be more powerful than a concentrated explosion.

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(pause at the 1:03 mark or slow the video down for a clearer view)

Thing with that is that we can see that Thanos does use the Power Stone in that instance (notified by the purple glow), so it should still apply.

Ehh. I don't know about that. I don't see the duration of an attack is relevant here. Pinpoint attacks will always be stronger than AoE attacks if they have the same potency. Pinpoint attacks will be able to do a lot more damage to a smaller area than an AoE attack would do to a wider area. So saying that Vision will need long-term pressure to deal damage feels unsubstantiated.

Admittedly this is probably the part I feel the least confident in, but to shamelessly redirect this point, there is another part to this that makes Thanos' more impressive.

That main thing being Toy's previous History with explosives. Simply put, even in his weaker suits, Tony is a monster when it comes to explosive durability.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Iron Man 2 #1

Even in his weaker suits, Tony was capable of basically no-selling a bunch of super powerful Jericho missiles is all that's needed to show just how ridiculous Tony's explosive resistance really is, which is much higher than any pure feat the Mind Stone has shown, and the Bleeding Edge is surely more durable. And whilst this doesn't affect the AOE vs pinpoint argument, it should be able to counteract this by showing just how durable Tony is.

Cool. Still don't see how blunt force is getting past intangibility though.

It's not supposed to, the idea behind me posting these are A. to give another advantage to Tony, no matter how minor, and B. If Vision ever tries to go for a Mind Stone blast, it gives Tony enough time to bulrush him, which he doesn't have the speeds to react to.

If you actually rewatched the gif I presented, you would know that Vision did not abuse his strength or durability until the very end. Up until that point, he was able to casually walk through all of Hawkeye's attacks with his intangibility. Also, given Hawkeye's martial art skill, it would be pretty hard to see his attacks coming if one didn't have some semblance of skills themselves. And this especially applies for Vision since he also needs to precisely make some part of his body intangible.

Fair enough, but at the very clear that even without the skill gap, Vision would crush Clint, dude admits it himself.

Notice how his legs and back are positioned. It is clear Tony was in the midst of moving in the freeze frame.

Eh, not really.

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As shown here, the most you could really argue is that he twitched his foot a little and clenched his hand, but if anything that just makes the feat all the more impressive as Tony moved to the side (the part that'd actually make the tank shell not hit him) way closer to him than one would think.

And either way, even aim-dodging this is still more than enough to outpace Vision, given the best you've shown is against Hawkeye, someone who requires some pretty funky scaling to be even a bullet timer, and make it insanely difficult for him to land a proper blow, given how you've shown nothing beyond maybe outpacing Hawkeye, which even then isn't enough to compensate.

The same "high speed meteors" that even Spider-Man was evading? Okay sir.

Still more than what you've shown Vision to be capable of in terms of speed.

Also, Iron Man has never "danced" around anyone in combat. In the same movie where this feat originated from, Iron Man was being dominated by Thanos. Thanos, who has no combat speed feats on that level at all.

That's a feat for Thanos, not an anti-feat for Tony.

Also, flying around high speed meteorites doesn't apply to combat speed in any way, shape or form, especially since Iron Man doesn't really abuse his flight in 1v1 scenarios.

Not really, he uses his flight more often than he doesn't. The only times I can really think where Tony didn't abuse his flight of the top of my mind was the Cap/Bucky fight (which as we've established is drenched in context) and... I guess to a lesser extent against Iron Monger. In basically every movie Tony's in he uses his flight more often than not.

Okay, so maybe this reasoning would work for strength or durability scaling, but reaction speed? Idk how being in different suits of armor increases or decreases your reaction speed tbh. I mean Iron Man having Mach 3-4 reactions in one suit and then being blitzed by super soldiers in the next makes no sense to me.

Well the suits would still need to be able to actually move out of the way to avoid the shell, so the suit would still need to able to have the speeds to actually perform that (it's clear he wouldn't be able to do that without the suit, so it clearly affects his reaction speed to some capacity at least).

I mean besides the fact that Hawkeye knew that they would hold Vision, Hawkeye has a history of creating arrows for specific circumstances like his S.H.I.E.L.D. hacking arrow.

Yeah, but for all we know, this was just regular electricity. Quite frankly, you can be either way about, as their's no real proof that this was any different electricity (what would you even change about the electricity? Doesn't help we have no other showcases of Vision and electricity beyond this scene) beyond what's essentially head-canon.

My bad, I meant Black Panther, who would be the perfect person to use them against seeing as how the Black Panther suit isn't the most durable suit energy wise.

How would Hawkeye know that?

Conclusion:

Now then, for this battle, here's how I'll break it down.

There are 2 ways Vision wins this, the Mind Stone and Phasing, both of which Tony can work around:

Firstly in regards to The Mind Stone, that's a simple case of it not being enough to damage Tony. Being pinpoint shouldn't really be enough to compensate for Tony's feats regarding explosives that put anything the Stone has replicated to shame.

And as for phasing, either way you slice it Tony won't be bothered by this for it to matter. If he sticks with projectiles then he'll quickly realise what's happening and plan out a course of attack accordingly, that plan being keeping out of Vision's range, forcing him to use the Mind Stone, and since he can't Phase and sue the Mind Stone at the same time, any decent repulser blast whilst Vision firing his laser will result in his obliteration.

If Tony decides to go in head first, and Vision decides to phase through his punches, unless Vision is able to time perfectly the moment of when to unphase (which given his crappy speed and Tony's at minimum supersonic+ speeds I highly doubt based on what you've shown), Tony would only just fly through Vision faster than he could unphase, where he would, just like the keep away plan, figure out what's going on immediately and use whatever method he needs to win, but in this part, I'll highlight that you've yet to counter the Nitrogen argument, making me feel pretty confident that all Tony needs to do is apply some cold air, and it's GG Vision.

Add on the quite frankly humongous stat gap, experience difference and overall versatility, and you have a victory for the Armoured Avenger.

Let's finish this, shall we?
Let's finish this, shall we?

Some nice tunes as a send off.

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#37 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by Subline (7864 posts) - - Show Bio

1 Post left?

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#39 Posted by Defiant_Will (1132 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps:

CLOSER | NO HUMANITY

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Not necessarily, there's plenty of examples to Tony sticking mostly with projectiles in fights against groups and on individual targets, ranging from:

the Airport fight in CW (he clearly shows in this instance to use projectiles over punching out, Clint or Wanda as an example)

against all the drones in AOU (he he really was punch first, lasers second, we would've used his fists against the bots, not practically exclusively use lasers, especially since he still did that to the ones he took down individually, not just used lasers on clusters of bots).

the terrorists in IM1 (only punched a grand total of 2 times),

most of the New York fight in Avengers 1 (dude didn't smack a single Chitauri)

hell even in the fight against Cap and Bucky he still mixed some projectiles/repulsers alongside the H2H.

And he clearly tried to use explosives against Thanos as I've shown, and discovered he could use it against him (which Vision can't do with Phasing, only avoid the explosion), so he knew he couldn't spam that stuff. He only went H2H as a last resort.

I think you are forgetting your original point:

"Given Tony's ability to produce giant AOE's, Vision gonna be forced to go full intangible basically all the time, which leaves Vision unable to use the Mind Stone given how he's never used it whilst intangible."

Gilgamesh's First Counter Post

You are suppose to prove that Iron Man will spam giant AoEs and force Vision to go intangible constantly, in character, which hasn't been done. In the instances you've shown me, the majority of his projectile usage has been against groups or fodder and even then, he didn't resort to these so called giant AoEs most of the time, let alone spam them. I'm not saying Iron Man will never resort to projectile usage, but to argue that Iron Man will spam giant AoEs in a 1v1 fight in character is absurd.

If this truly was in character for him, he would have done so way more often. He would have done so against people like Ultron, Thanos, and Thor, people who could take this kind of punishment and are physically superior to Iron Man's suit. You would think that since all three of these characters are physically stronger than Tony, that he would've then relied on a bombardment of AoE and spammed them, but of course he didn't. Hell, killing people isn't too much of a stretch for Iron Man seeing as how he killed Iron Monger and attempted to stab Thanos, so if spamming AoEs was really in character for him, he would've done so against people like Killian and Whiplash, which would've saved him a lot of trouble. But no, what did he do? He resorted to CQC with the occasional repulsor blast here and there, never resorting to any kind of AoE.

Could not disagree more with this, no way Tony's only on Super Solider levels, dude only had a 2v1 due to both the CW suit, and the fact that the fight was heavily in Cap and Bucky's favour, given Tony's destroyed flight capabilities, the tight arena and H2H requirements which even I'll admit Tony is worse a in regards to pure skill.

I highlighted this part because the rest of what you are saying is completely ignoring my point. In terms of speed and skill, super soldiers are above Tony. Like WAY above Tony. People like Black Panther are able to cut bullets out of the air and Captain America was able to absolutely stomp Iron Man in H2H during Civil War before Iron Man was able to use his fight pattern analyzer. And yet Hawkeye was able to compete with Black Panther and even get him into a hold with out any trouble, with Black Panther only managing to get out by abusing his physical strength.

To put it one way, if Cap or Bucky switched roles with Tony, you honestly think they'd last nearly as long? And even if I conceded this, the IW suit is leagues ahead of any suit, as I've established so this kind of lowballing doesn't really work.

What does the suit change have to do with raw skill and combat speed? Iron Man hasn't gotten any faster and definitely hasn't gotten more skilled.

If Tony can't find a way to out Vision by himself, he can easily resort to this method should he need it. This isn't his primary way of discovering an out to intangibility (Tony can do that fine solo tbh), just an extra bit spice thrown on should he need it.

Again, if this was a viable thing for Iron Man to turn to in combat, he would have done so against Thanos. At best it is Iron Man's last resort, but given Vision's one shot kill attacks, Iron Man won't even get the chance to resort to this.

If we're claiming Vision>Hawkeye in skill, then he would be a skilled martial artist would he not?

I am not claiming Vision is above Hawkeye. I am saying that Vision is skilled himself, so regardless, I will concede to this point.

That was a case of Tony knowing what he was going against, and thus he seemingly didn't need to us it, unlike here where it could very much be useful in figuring out what Vision is up-to given the no knowledge situation.

Wut. Iron Man hadn't even met Thanos up until that point and had no knowledge of his fighting style or weaknesses, and yet he still didn't use it. What's more is that you claim that Iron Man uses it when he really needs to, and yet when he was getting his ass handed to him by Thanos, he didn't use it.

It also helps that any time he went for H2H he either had help or it didn't last all that long, or at least nit as long as his fight with Cap or Bucky, so it's likely the system didn't have time to.

Wrong. Iron Man has literally never used this ability in any suit prior to Civil War and you yourself claimed that this ability came with F.R.I.D.A.Y., so you can't even say this ability was available prior to Civil War:

"And even if you wanna argue the skill gap, Tony's fight pattern analyser (he should still have this given how it's connected to F.R.I.D.A.Y, not the civil suit itself) will do wonders in closing whatever gap Vision could have in skill."

Gilgamesh's First Counter Post

Post Civil War, against Thanos, he never used such an ability, so your argument falls flat.

Nothing's stopping Tony from just playing keep away, not he like doesn't have the speed to just run away from Vision and figure out a battle plan. And so long as Tony doesn't stand completely still whilst Vision's phasing out his heart, I can't see it doing anything that significant.

That's assuming Iron Man's fight pattern analyzer has unlimited range. Also, like I said, Vision needs to be in the midst of combat in order for there to even be a fight pattern to analyze, which won't be the case if Vision can't even get his hands on Tony.

Realise that Vision essentially ghosted through all of his explosives, not like it's undetectable to the normal eye, and someone as smart as Tony can quickly pick up on this, even without F.R.I.D.A.Y.

That's assuming Iron Man even spams explosives in the first place.

It'd still be able to analyse what Vision is made of, and then Tony can apply his own intellect to conclude what Vision's doing and apply the tools around.

Woah. The headcanon, what is this? Iron Man has never used his intellect in a way that can counter Vibranium. He hardly uses the stuff anyway. I mean if he could really counter Vibranium with his pure intellect, he would have done so from jump against Ultron in his Vibranium body.

Already showed that, whilst they as a whole aren't 1v1s, Tony is quite ok with using his projectiles against individual opponents.

My point was that he isn't going to be spamming explosives, and my point still stands. Hell, he uses his repulsor blasts more often than his actual explosives, which can be easily phased through.

Thing with that is that we can see that Thanos does use the Power Stone in that instance (notified by the purple glow), so it should still apply.

Thanos clearly just manipulated Iron Man's explosion and released back at him in concentrated form. There's not even a hint of purple in said attack, so he can conclude that it isn't a blast from the Power Stone, and thus doesn't have the same potency.

Even in his weaker suits, Tony was capable of basically no-selling a bunch of super powerful Jericho missiles is all that's needed to show just how ridiculous Tony's explosive resistance really is, which is much higher than any pure feat the Mind Stone has shown, and the Bleeding Edge is surely more durable. And whilst this doesn't affect the AOE vs pinpoint argument, it should be able to counteract this by showing just how durable Tony is.

Wut. Showing Iron Man tanking an AoE explosion has no merits on his ability to tank a pinpoint attack, which you haven't shown.

B. If Vision ever tries to go for a Mind Stone blast, it gives Tony enough time to bulrush him, which he doesn't have the speeds to react to.

How in the hell is Iron Man reacting to a Mind Stone blast, the same attack that reached the clouds in a matter of 2-3 seconds, give or take. For reference, War Machine was so high in the sky at that point that it took him over 5 seconds to reach the ground.

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As shown here, the most you could really argue is that he twitched his foot a little and clenched his hand, but if anything that just makes the feat all the more impressive as Tony moved to the side (the part that'd actually make the tank shell not hit him) way closer to him than one would think.

And either way, even aim-dodging this is still more than enough to outpace Vision, given the best you've shown is against Hawkeye, someone who requires some pretty funky scaling to be even a bullet timer, and make it insanely difficult for him to land a proper blow, given how you've shown nothing beyond maybe outpacing Hawkeye, which even then isn't enough to compensate.

Dude, I don't even need to counter this feat anymore. If it's so hard to tag Iron Man, people like Cull Obsidian and Thanos wouldn't have been able to. Thanos, the same guy who was blitzed by Nebula, was able to consistently tag Iron Man. Let alone Cull Obsidian, who was able to tag Iron Man, despite this same guy barely managing to outmaneuver an inexperienced Hulkbuster Bruce Banner.

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It gets worst. From Captain America outright blitzing Iron Man to Whiplash dogging him to even the likes of the slow as hell Iron Monger giving him a run for his money, it's pretty safe to say Iron Man isn't outmaneuvering anyone considering that people far slower in combat speed than the likes of Hawkeye and Vision have tagged him consistently.

That's a feat for Thanos, not an anti-feat for Tony.

So Thanos is fast enough to tag Mach 3-4 opponents now? The same guy who Nebula was outmaneuvering and who struggle to tag Spider-Man when he was being assisted by Doctor Strange? Okay man.

Not really, he uses his flight more often than he doesn't. The only times I can really think where Tony didn't abuse his flight of the top of my mind was the Cap/Bucky fight (which as we've established is drenched in context) and... I guess to a lesser extent against Iron Monger. In basically every movie Tony's in he uses his flight more often than not.

Dodging meteorites that Spider-Man was able to casually evade isn't impressive in the slightest travel speed wise. And in 1v1 scenarios, Iron Man doesn't abuse his flight like you claim. He didn't do so against Cull, Thanos, Whiplash, Killian, etc.

Well the suits would still need to be able to actually move out of the way to avoid the shell, so the suit would still need to able to have the speeds to actually perform that (it's clear he wouldn't be able to do that without the suit, so it clearly affects his reaction speed to some capacity at least).

This reasoning doesn't work my man. Unless the Civil War suit is inferior to Iron Man's literal first suit, then my argument still holds up.

Yeah, but for all we know, this was just regular electricity. Quite frankly, you can be either way about, as their's no real proof that this was any different electricity (what would you even change about the electricity? Doesn't help we have no other showcases of Vision and electricity beyond this scene) beyond what's essentially head-canon.

Sorry, but claiming that an explosive will have the same effect on Vision as the electricity is just absurd. With that logic, Iron Man's suit would have been powered up by explosives like they did with Thor's lightning.

FINAL THOUGHTS

Anyway you slice it, Vision wins this. The in character rule is the bane of Tony's existence here as he will likely resort to CQC knowing him, especially without any prior knowledge on Vision. Given Vision's track record against Hawkeye, Vision should be able to dominate CQC and go for the kill with his intangibility. And if not, Vision always has his Mind Stone blasts to fall back on, another thing Iron Man has no answer for. Meanwhile, Vision can counter Iron Man's strength advantage with his phasing and can turn intangible when faced with all of Iron Man's projectiles, countering that in the process.

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#41 Posted by Subline (7864 posts) - - Show Bio

This is gonna be fun...

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#42 Edited by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

Quick note to voters. I'm trying to improve my debating quality and most of my stuff don't get to voting, so if you could provide any general improvements I could make as a debater that'd be most appreciated. :)

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#43 Posted by Chronicplane (9050 posts) - - Show Bio

Will get back to this shortly, If not tag me again.

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#44 Posted by Subline (7864 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Edited by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline: no it's open, I just wanted to ask for more general feedback on how I debated is all. Apologies for the confusion.

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#46 Posted by Subline (7864 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by SexyBayonetta22 (1594 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice one. T4v

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#48 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

@defiant_will: @gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps:

Nice CAV !

My vote goes for Defiant Will. He did a great job in pointing out that Iron Man simply in character will engage in H2H and would be outmatched by the superior Vision. He also did a great job in showing the Mind Stone’s concentrated beam would definitely cause damage to the armor despite some of the explosion feats presented by Gilgamesh.

Thanks for the great read, guys.

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#49 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by Darkthunder (2102 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice CAV

I VOTE FOR DEFIANT WILL. HE PROVIDED GOOD POINTS ABOUT MIND STONE BLAST AND PHASING. AND HE PERFECTLY DEBUNKED GILGAMESH'S REASONING FOR FIGHT PATTERN ANALYZER.