CaV: MCU Thor (xZone) Vs MCU Thanos and Hela (Kevd4wg)

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#401 Posted by SupremeGeneration (12744 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: I wasn’t asking for a response, just pointing out a few things I felt would be able to help you in the future. By no sense of the word - at least in my book - did you do bad. I was just pointing out that with a bit of fine-tuning here and there, you can go back on your way to winning CaVs, if you lose this one.

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#402 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#403 Edited by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

@bayman007: Thanks for voting, but I am interested as to what you thought of Thor’s telekinetic control over Stormbreaker

Edit: And Stormbreaker blocking Hela’s blades

X

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#404 Edited by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (12221 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta said:

Right, well, here's my honest opinion.

Going into this matchup, I legit thought that Thor could easily win this. Like really, I was confused to why Kev was using two people who barely had any feats, and together were a strange match for Thor. This honestly felt like Kev had just gone for a joke CaV for laughs. It was only when the proper posts came in when this changed, lol

Anyway, I'm basing the winner on who debated better, not what character I like more (because LA characters in general aren't great, tbh) or what character would win in a matchup. With that said, I've got to go for Kevd over Xzone here. While it was close at the start, the last few posts really showed who had the more solid case, the better arguments, and who had a plan that would work. Kev's plan was simple, but very effective- I didn't see a way through it, and it seemed Xzone didn't either, as he sorta just went through the same gifs about 15 times, and repeated old arguments. With his last post, I felt like he didn't really focus on Kev's points most of the time, preferring to just add more of his, which gave him more room for his foe to counter him on a ton of points, which he did.

Kev's counters felt more direct and detailed. He didn't try to over complicate them, he just kept them simple, and effective. Xzone did a good job, but his constant redoing of arguments and evidence becomes very tiring to go through, and it was quite hard to glean the points he had. He did good, just not enough to convince me.

So yeah, @kevd4wg is the winner for me. I respect @xzone for giving it a good shot through, and I see plenty of room for improvement.

I've just finished reading both opponents posts, and this pretty much sums it up. xZone's repetitive arguments kinda-sorta flattened his chances of winning this beautiful CAV, it's also known as proof by assertion or argumentum ad nauseam. It just lessens your argument's credibility and gives the opposition the right to dismiss your argumentative stance (Hitchens's razor).

Edit: My vote goes for Kev 6.5-7/10, with respect to xZone for making it a bit hard.

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#405 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#406 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (12221 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: No problem, man. Good luck in your next CAV.

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#407 Posted by Bayman007 (2498 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone:

No probs.

Here we go;

xZone: Thor is also able to telekinetically control Stormbreaker, so if Hela or Thanos dodge, it isn't a problem, Stormbreaker will just follow them.

You suggested that Stombreaker could be dodged yourself straight away! I do understand why you did this, to highlight that it would follow them... and this is just my 2 cents… but you could have just said this;

xZone: Thor is also able to telekinetically control Stormbreaker in order to hit multiple targets.

This could would have left Kevd4wg to come up with the idea of it being dodged, and also prove it.

Having said this, I doubt Stormbreaker is following them BOTH to the death off the bat. It’s more likely it would follow one of them? This still leaves Thor open to be attacked.

Kevd4wg: But does it carry the same potency as the strong overhand throw? Additionally, Hela caught Mjolnir and he could control that telepathically as well

Interesting point here about the potency once dodged, but I didn’t agree that Hela could stop it with her hand. She only out rights does this move with Mojinir, other than that she tries to evade hits rather than sticking her hand out. It’s like saying if Aquaman threw his trident, would she just sick her hand out and grab the end? More than likely she will try and block it by moving her forearm or just simply evade it (she's been pierced alot). Stormbreaker does have a sharp side unlike Moljnir, so this a clue.

I read through the Scenarios as well, I just thought after all of it you both desrved a point. I'm happy to elaborate further if needed.

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#408 Edited by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

@bayman007: Well, I countered Thanos dodging by saying that he didn’t dodge and that Stormbreaker could be controlled by Thor

Edit: Kev didn’t give any good piercing feats for Thanos regardless

Thanks again for voting

X

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#409 Posted by Bayman007 (2498 posts) - - Show Bio
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#410 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#411 Posted by CyberpunkCop (3406 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm voting for xzone while the arguments for Hela were very solid i felt Thanos'swrere a little underwhelming

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#412 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#413 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Current Tally: Kev: 6 xZone: 2

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#414 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for voting

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#415 Posted by macleen (3705 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll have to go over it all over again tomorrow and give my vote

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#416 Posted by Kevd4wg (13186 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm voting for xzone while the arguments for Hela were very solid i felt Thanos'swrere a little underwhelming

Can you elaborate a bit so I know what to do better

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#417 Edited by deactivated-5c522ab96172e (2388 posts) - - Show Bio

So xZone Force Thor really is a thing, hum?

T4V.

Scratch that, I'll finish reading and come to vote then.

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#418 Edited by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#419 Posted by deactivated-5c522ab96172e (2388 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Yeah, my mistake, sorry. :P

Will come back with a vote followed by an explanation soon.

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#420 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#421 Posted by deactivated-5c531dce659a2 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to give it X if I'm allowed to vote.

I think he did very good job proving that Thor can not only match these two but he can surpass them especially now that Thor has Stormbreaker. Kevd4wg also did a tremendous job, making this hard to pick a winner but, X kept his cool even though his opposition started getting a tad bit salty, and the audience who I guess is deaf/blind started trolling... And IMO while not getting tilted through that he seemed to have a slight edge in the arguments.

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#422 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#423 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

Current Tally: Kev: 6 xZone: 3

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#424 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for votes

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#425 Posted by deactivated-5c522ab96172e (2388 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: @xzone:

For this CaV, my vote goes to Kevd4wg.

In short, Xzone relied too heavily on one or two gifs of Thor pushing the offense against Hela and claiming to be because of superior speed and skill, of which Kev perfectly countered that Thor does not have the speed and skill advantage as she was in control of all of their encounters. Kev also pointed out that Hela throwing multiple blades in succession is enough to overwhelm Thor and completely negate his lightning cloak, which was devastating to Xzone’s case.

Kev’s arguments for Thanos were a little weak though, with claims such as sidestepping Stormbreaker if Thor were to try to throw it at Thanos again.

All in all, a very enjoyable CaV and thank you both for the effort.

This sums up pretty much my vote, plus XZone's kinda of repetitive arguments and somewhat overcomplicated strategies helped solidify my instance to side more with KeV.

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#426 Edited by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

People keep saying I relied on a few gifs. What the heck is wrong with that? They were not countered lmao. There is no instance in the fight where Hela pushed a CQC advantage via speed or skill...

Edit: Also, what the heck is up with the “complicated points” I legit had 4 basic, basic points

Speed/Skill

Flight

Lightning

Stormbreaker

Everything else was explaining those points

X

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#427 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#428 Posted by Kevd4wg (13186 posts) - - Show Bio
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#429 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for voting

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#430 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#431 Posted by ProfessorRespect (7928 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

Bump

When is the voting phase done, It's been going for 2 days

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#432 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#433 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#434 Posted by CyberpunkCop (3406 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:
@cyberpunkcop said:

I'm voting for xzone while the arguments for Hela were very solid i felt Thanos'swrere a little underwhelming

Can you elaborate a bit so I know what to do better

It's not your fault it's just Thanos has a really severe lack of feats outside of heavy scaling so it's hard to make arguments for him

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#436 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#437 Edited by deactivated-5d2cf537b4a1c (3506 posts) - - Show Bio

Congrats to both of you.

I feel that I have to vote xZone on a majority here. As in for the 3 scenarios displayed in his post, I believe that he has debated well enough to win the first two.

@xzone

Here is what you do that compels me to vote.

1. Thor's lightning-based abilities are more than capable of incapacitating Hela, even w/o a weapon. You proved this with the consistent usage of the Palace and Bifrost feats. Given the distance, and Thor's exclusive flight - which you also focused on - I think there are really no ways that Hela can stop herself from getting incapped by sky lightning once more. With the distance being the full length of the Rainbow Bridge, Thanos is literally a sitting duck.

2. Stormbreaker. With the distance provided, Thor can home in via Stormbreaker and cleaves the Mad Titan. There are enough feats here to suggest that Thor can atleast fight on par with Hela from a distance for Stormbreaker to do the job, but what convinces me is that Thanos isn't overriding Thor's TK, even if he somehow OOCs and catches it, Stormbreaker has a spin to it, something the Mjolnir never had. That spin is hard enough to blunt-force Outriders into several pieces with the wooden end right when Stormbreaker saves Captain America (nice catch on your part!). Hela, for one, got pierced by a standard Asgardian sword, so there is nothing more to say there.

Ultimately, it comes down to piercing and energy durability of Hela and Base Thanos, and honestly, they really pale before Thor's offense. Thanos's piercing durability is a given in this thread. And so should Hela's, based on her history of getting stabbed by Asgardian blades, as seen in this thread. Thor's offensive capabilities are tremendously greater than that of his opponents in the energy department, and the distance is enough for a comfortable win, if he doesn't act stupid (honestly, I liked your pre-edit post about Thor's wind manipulation, because as I said before, the IC/OOC goalpost shifted so much in this debate that even that strategy should have been held acceptable).

@kevd4wg

Kev, you managed to persuade me that Thor will lose in the CQC scenario after a while. Honestly, I applaud you, as I think this was the part where you shined through. Thor didn't seem to be gaining a real advantage over Hela in the CQC as she did over him. Thor's attention would have to solely be on here the whole time if he wants to optimize his cloak to avoid getting injured by a necroblade. If Thanos does get involved at the level of the CQC, Hela would easily be able to go in for the kill.

I'd also grant you that Thor's usage of Stormbreaker is not as agile as his usage of Mjolnir, and you satisfied the burden of proof rather well. That would help your case in the CQC scenario tremendously, as Thor can't exactly swing it around as easily. I would have hammered away at the fact that SB would have independently impaired Thor's ability to move his arms to react to Hela's strikes as he did in the Throne room (if he was going straight for the executioner's swing), which could have possibly overruled the application of all of Thor's skill feats in Ragnarok, but I think you did an excellent job nonetheless. The lightning cloak would have been the first route I would have gone (it is probably classic right now), but your usage of Hela's double projectile attack was wonderful.

However, for Hela dismantling Stormbreaker and the like, that's not going to be likely for her staying in the battle either, unless Thor will just sit there and watch her break his uru. Stormbreaker spins with tremendous force and has Thor's TK and independent lightning cloak around it. It is like saying Thanos won't try to dodge Stormbreaker because he stood still before in Infinity War. We should have equitable standards here, at the very least.

Finally, that fissure created by Surtur, although it showed up in the script - the gifs would disagree. Hela fell into the water, the same water Hulk and Fenris fell into, and the only points between are the two bridge pillars. Given that the bridge debris (and Hela) are descending vertically, there is no way to suggest that she actually fell anywhere the pillar bases, let alone the are damaged by Surtur's revival. And independently, the Palace feat appeared to incap her as well, and that's from the script that suggests that she appeared to be KO'ed. By that point, I believed it was a matter of time before X would have posted the following gif in his final post, which he did. I just don't see where the fissure is to begin with.

No Caption Provided

Even then, her piercing durability is subpar. She has no piercing durability feats aside from her cape, which is going to be cut to ribbons by the two swords that nearly filleted her . Stormbreaker isn't a stabbing weapon for her to close up the wound via regen - whenever Thor has used Stormbreaker as a feat in this thread he has either flew with it or swung it.

I will tell you this, though. If Hela had a better partner in this debate, like a non-brick character like [insert stone here] Thanos, a jobbing Ego avatar, or hell, even a Strange with feats pre-Dormammu, your conditions would have drastically improved from the get-go, since you'd probably find a way to be able to use their offensive capabilities against Thor in a very intuitive manner, based on how you've argued your case here.

Regardless, I did enjoy the debate, and I was conflicted on who I was favoring multiple times throughout.

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#438 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#439 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

Current Tally: Kev: 7 xZone: 4

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#440 Posted by phisigmatau (2094 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor doesn't win
But Kdawgs explanations were no good for me to read.

v/ xz

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#441 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

@phisigmatau: Mind explaining a little why my arguments were better than Kev’s?

X

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#442 Posted by Kevd4wg (13186 posts) - - Show Bio
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#443 Posted by phisigmatau (2094 posts) - - Show Bio
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#444 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#445 Posted by Richubs (7128 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote today when I get time I just want to read some things again.

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#446 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#447 Edited by phisigmatau (2094 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: . However, when Hulk finally gets his hands on Thor, he dominates him physically

^^ liess ^^

Cant vote for dude after reading this. It was clear Thor was holding back on the account of getting thru to Banner like he always does.

Also XZ speed argument was totally compelling. Not enough to convince me that Thor would win

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#448 Posted by Kevd4wg (13186 posts) - - Show Bio

@phisigmatau: Um, I don't like to argue with voters, but how is

However, when Hulk finally gets his hands on Thor, he dominates him physically

not true?

Loading Video...

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#449 Posted by deactivated-5d07416730d08 (2261 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to @kevd4wg

Reasons :

1. Thor is neither faster or more skilled than Hela. She has tagged him and after rewatching ''Throne Room'' scene Kev's claim became rational for me. Also Thanos is not going to stand and do nothing about it.

2. Thor's flight can be countered with Necroblade spamming.

3. Lightning is irrelevant considering fact that it takes Thor's full concentration/charge to unleash strong lightning blasts. Not to mention Thanos tanked it while off-guard and Hela shrugged off "The biggest lightning blast in the history of lightning".

4. You literally said that Thor is physically inferior to Thanos. What stops Hela from taking him down out of air and then duo ganging up on him? That was Kev's main point which you didn't counter correctly.

GG.

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#450 Posted by Kevd4wg (13186 posts) - - Show Bio