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#351 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11998 posts) - - Show Bio

On-Topic:

This isn't a vote for @kevd4wg but I do want to point out a few things from @xzone. Who knows, maybe the Live Action Solo King can make a comeback someday with just a little bit of advice.

  • Stop repeating yourself so much. IIRC you posted the same exact final sections in every single post. If your point stands, it stands. It got repetitive and slightly annoying.
  • The gif where Thor deflected the Hela sword that you cropped, which Kev called you out on for Thor getting tagged? Just admit you're wrong. You went from presenting it in your opener, to getting it countered, to saying it doesn't count because Thor was surprised despite dodging and blocking two other ones respectively. What you're basically saying is you presented a feat in your opener that doesn't count except when you wanted it to, but when it got countered it no longer counted.

That said, some of your points were strong. Pointing out Hela's strength advantage as a contrast to speed/skill (though I do believe Hela was clearly faster/more skilled). I also disagreed that Thanos would just stand there and try and tank a weapon that almost killed him before, that seemed more than just illogical. Even then, you made this closer than I thought it would be. Kudos.

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#352 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon: To clarify, do you believe I debated better or not?

X

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#354 Posted by Alavanka (2644 posts) - - Show Bio

Will give a breakdown of what I thought of this later. Great job.

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#355 Edited by Nucleon (3634 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: No.

In fact, I thought you did better in you other CaVs - maybe it had this effect on me. Kev was, IMO, right about Thor's performence against Hela (you guys spent on whole lot of time on it).

What I admired was your persistence, your honourable demeanor, and the fact that you completed the CaV in spite of all that was against you. Your sporting spirit. That's why you got my vote. It isn't a pity vote, but one out of admiration. If you would have let it go without a fight, then Kev would have had it for the reasons I wrote in my voting post. I know it won't change the end result, so I am happy giving one from time to time.

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#356 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Kev legit stomped in his final post.

Gonna give my vote to him.

Will give a more detailed analysis tomorrow if I can be bothered to read the CaV.

If I don't provide reasons feel free to discount this.

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#357 Posted by Risk0608 (275 posts) - - Show Bio

The fact that Thor actually has a huge chance shows some real problems with consistency in the MCU. I mean it's not unknown that the MCU has some inconsistencies, but this specifically is a big plothole. We didn't see the fight at the start of IW, but we can assume that Thanos > Post-Thor Ragnorak Thor = Hela. Notice that no power-up happens in the entirety of IW, he just gets Stormbreaker and somehow is able to contend with Thanos with a full Infinity Gauntlet. Just my thoughts...

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#358 Posted by Nucleon (3634 posts) - - Show Bio

@risk0608 said:

The fact that Thor actually has a huge chance shows some real problems with consistency in the MCU. I mean it's not unknown that the MCU has some inconsistencies, but this specifically is a big plothole. We didn't see the fight at the start of IW, but we can assume that Thanos > Post-Thor Ragnorak Thor = Hela. Notice that no power-up happens in the entirety of IW, he just gets Stormbreaker and somehow is able to contend with Thanos with a full Infinity Gauntlet. Just my thoughts...

Biggest problem was IMO Hela.

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#359 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon: The debate is not about that, so I’m sorry, but I simply can’t take that vote. Thanks for reading

X

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#360 Posted by Nucleon (3634 posts) - - Show Bio
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#361 Posted by Risk0608 (275 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon: I think a real battle would have equally been carried by both, Hela's skill and hax makes her more dangerous, it's just the direction the debate ended up going in.

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#362 Posted by KrleAvenger (26207 posts) - - Show Bio

Sympathy votes, regardless of good intentions, actively break the rules of voting, and are no different than biased votes in that regard, something this CaV is also full of. You don't make any claims that even remotely hint on the outcome of the match-up before you actually vote.

It's also quite sad to see that the only reason why this has so many voters, is simply due to hostile based curiosity and argument between users who have absolutely no business talking on this thread. And incredibly aggressive and disrespectful debating style on both sides does not help either.

This CaV is a fail in almost every sense of the word. And the reason why I say "almost" is because openers are entertaining and there is actual effort put into posts, and decent debating skills are presented in some areas, but everything else is either disappointing or outright infuriating.

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#363 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: You may notice that I am not going to accept said vote. Sorry that this was a “failure” to you, but I appreciate you taking the time to read the posts, and I do hope you enjoyed to some extent

X

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#364 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio
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#365 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#366 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6353 posts) - - Show Bio

X failed to bring much new to the table to change my initial impression of the bout, a mismatch.

Vote goes to Kev

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#368 Posted by KrleAvenger (26207 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: @xzone: Yes I noticed but that part was 100% addressed towards the idea, not towards you X. And please understand that I wouldn't be so harsh if I didn't find the openers so entertaining. I wasn't planning on voting because it is time-consuming, but I really wanted to read the whole thing. And then I just got disappointed.

But that is just my opinion and I can't stress this idea enough, but I have my own idea od things that should or shouldn't be seen in CaVs. Stuff I do not like may be something the other would actually appreciate, so I am not saying this is an actual disappointment, just that I personally was disappointed. Besides, 60-70% of my frustration came from readers/voters, while posts/arguments themselves just had a lot of problems that I found irritating, and it did affect my view of but I am still glad I read them.

Good luck in future debates.

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#369 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio
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#370 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Alright, again, I appreciate your opinion and for your time spent reading

X

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#371 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#372 Posted by ANTHP2000 (28747 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for @xzone because reasons.

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#373 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#374 Posted by ANTHP2000 (28747 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

@anthp2000: Care to elaborate?

X

You're a very nice, innocent person that doesn't bait.

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#375 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: I know, I even refused to troll you, but I would like to know why you think I debated better

X

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#376 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

@anthp2000: I know, I even refused to troll you, but I would like to know why you think I debated better

X

For the record, I also refuse to troll anthp

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#377 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#378 Posted by ANTHP2000 (28747 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:
@xzone said:

@anthp2000: I know, I even refused to troll you, but I would like to know why you think I debated better

X

For the record, I also refuse to troll anthp

b8

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#379 Edited by rem (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

Here’s some of my points.

Kev convinced me that Hela was better than Thor in every physical area. I felt like xzone saying that Thor was faster and more skilled than Hela was a little odd imo And I think Kev did a great Job countering it. I also noticed that Kev had much more basic arguments. And it felt like Xzone was either repetitive with points/Gifs, to try to scramble for an answer or frankly tried to make meaningless excuses.

I also thought that X constantly used the word “blitz” without any real context. They’re were a few unnecessary word or phrases like “why don’t you just concede“ or X using words like “double standard” Which wasn’t the case.

I felt like Kevs arguments for thanos were weak aside from the agument comparing hulk and thanos (which was great) but I also didnt think that X gave any real convincing counters either And consistsntly thought the debate thought that X (but sometimes Kev) wouldnt misunderstand clear cut points.

Overall, my vote goes to @kevd4wg but @xzonedid a nice job too

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#380 Posted by Matthew660 (1685 posts) - - Show Bio

Going to have to vote for @kevd4wg. I wasn’t sure who’d win between this fight. I feel kev just brought up better points and convinced me why hela and thanos would win.

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#381 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@rem: Thanks for voting

X

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#382 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio

@rem: Thanks for voting and the nice elaboration

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#383 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#384 Edited by rem (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg

@xzone said:

@rem: Thanks for voting

X

Yeah. Great job to both of you. Continue doing CaVs because these are pretty entertaining and you’re pretty good at it.

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#385 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@rem: Thanks, man. I truly appreciate it

X

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#386 Posted by ANTHP2000 (28747 posts) - - Show Bio

@rem said:
@xzone said:

@rem: Thanks for voting

X

@xzone said:

@rem: Thanks for voting

X

Yeah. Great job to both of you. Continue doing CaVs because these are pretty entertaining and you’re pretty good at it.

Because of this, I actually thought this was a bad joke at first lol.

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#387 Edited by rem (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000 said:
@rem said:
@xzone said:

@rem: Thanks for voting

X

@xzone said:

@rem: Thanks for voting

X

Yeah. Great job to both of you. Continue doing CaVs because these are pretty entertaining and you’re pretty good at it.

Because of this, I actually thought this was a bad joke at first lol.

I didn’t even notice and had no idea what you were talking about🤦‍♂️

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#388 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: Did you tag everyone for votes?

X

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#389 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (5261 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: @xzone:

For this CaV, my vote goes to Kevd4wg.

In short, Xzone relied too heavily on one or two gifs of Thor pushing the offense against Hela and claiming to be because of superior speed and skill, of which Kev perfectly countered that Thor does not have the speed and skill advantage as she was in control of all of their encounters. Kev also pointed out that Hela throwing multiple blades in succession is enough to overwhelm Thor and completely negate his lightning cloak, which was devastating to Xzone’s case.

Kev’s arguments for Thanos were a little weak though, with claims such as sidestepping Stormbreaker if Thor were to try to throw it at Thanos again.

All in all, a very enjoyable CaV and thank you both for the effort.

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#390 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#391 Edited by Alavanka (2644 posts) - - Show Bio

@alavanka said:

Will give a breakdown of what I thought of this later. Great job.

So let's break this down. I came came into this thread with one clear question in mind: Does having Hela as an ally offer Thanos a greater advantage than having the full infinity gauntlet? When you really think about it, that's what it boils down to. Can Hela succeed with her necrosword spam where Thanos with a blast from the full infinity gauntlet failed? Ultimately, I remained unconvinced she can.

In Xzone's the first scenario, he argued that Thor would be able to stun Hela with a lightning bolt, and then finish Thanos off with a Stormbreaker throw before returning to face Hela. I found this scenario the most compelling in the entire thread. Whether or not you believe that Thor's "biggest lightning blast in the history of lightning" knocked Hela out, the fact remains that it did manage to incapacitate Hela for the duration of Thor's fight against the Asgardian zombies. This would buy Thor enough time to throw Stormbreaker at Thanos, which he has proven to be capable of doing in Infinity War. Xzone's second scenario is blitzing, which I thought that he could have made a better case for. I particularly wanted to see him bring up the Jotunheim beast feat (a far greater feat than Diana stopping a random human imo) to challenge Kevdog's argument that Thor cannot blitz. Xzone's third argument is where he dropped the ball imo. In that trying to argue that Thor can simultaneously outskill Hela and Thanos is a hard sell.

Kevdog's win condition is that Thor will be cautious of Hela breaking Stormbreaker, which is a premise I did not buy. Stormbreaker is stated to be a superior weapon to Mjolnir. Thor is confident enough to throw Stormbreaker at Thanos, and Thanos gave him a greater ass-whooping than Hela. Thanos was also blasting at him with the power of 6 Infinity Stones from the completed Infinity Gauntlet, and Thor still had the confidence to throw Stormbreaker. Stormbreaker is also a spinning axe, which is inherently harder to catch than the blunt head of Mjolnir....much like a throwing knife is harder to safely catch than a baseball, even though a good pitcher might be able to throw a baseball much faster. If Stormbreaker can push its way through a continuous beam of the Infinity Gauntlet, it would probably just break any necroblades it meet in its direct path. Which means that in order for Hela to tag Thor with her necroblades, the "spacing" between the necro-blades would have to be farther apart so that Stormbreaker wouldn't hit both at once. Where Kev did a good job was arguing for Hela's superiority over Thor in melee exchanges, but again I remain unconvinced that Hela will be able to blast Thor out of the sky where Thanos failed.

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#392 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@alavanka: Is that a vote for me? Perhaps I missed it, but I don’t see if you clarified the vote was for me or Kev

X

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#393 Posted by Alavanka (2644 posts) - - Show Bio
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#394 Edited by Rajjar (2507 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone@kevd4wg

Still prepping my voting decision. But there is one thing I'd like to say in advance.

I understand that it is ok to call each one another out on hypocrisy, but ethos attacks seem to derail from the actual defensive arguments. Banter is good and all, but I don't really factor ethos too much when both sides are engaging each other over standards of interpretation unless the point actually is crucial to a win, because it isn't really a good model of debate. This can be seen by the fact that the debate got muddled by the IC/OOC character issues (Thor's storm summoning scenarios at the beginning, demarcating "blitz" and "bullrush" ,Thanos standing still to tank Stormbreaker, etc).

However, I enjoyed the debate, even though I find myself agreeing a bit with Krle's statement.

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#395 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#396 Posted by Syntix (641 posts) - - Show Bio

CaV’s are supposed to be voted by an unbiased person and that is why i think CaV is simply a bad idea because the majority would rather vote for the character they like than how the debaters debate.

I personally think this CaV is great with 2 of the best live action debater out there and you guys even add a sprinkle of salt to make this CaV more heated and fun. I’m voting later.

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#397 Posted by Darkthunder (3225 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor

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#398 Posted by Bayman007 (1956 posts) - - Show Bio

I decided to run a tally, and awarded points for the main parts in the battle that stood out for me.

Okay, so @xzone opened and formatted well, with 4 key advantages for Thor to win this battle. Kevd4wg didn’t disappoint returned the favour which I like in CAVS. A point a piece

Tally: xZone 1, Kevd4wg 1

1) Speed/Skill: Since Thor has already out-sped and out-skilled Hela before, he should have no problem doing it again

This was argued well by xZone, but Kevd4wg came straight back with a few punched of his own. First of all proving that Hela in fact was controlling her fight with Thor, pointing out and proving her superior combat speed, plus her means to block every traditional hit Thor made. Kev also made some good points and comparisons between Thor and Hulks fight with Thanos. Thanos did indeed end his fight quicker than with Thor which took skill (and poor writing but meh), and also that he did have comparable speed/reactions. xZones counter didn’t help imo, there want enough additional information than what was already posted to gain a point from me.

Tally: xZone 1, Kevd4wg 2

2) Flight: Thor is the only one who can fly here, and he exploits this advantage in combat

Obviously this is where Thor stands out. However, Kev brought to light his use of it in battle pushing for more proof, and when I look back I was happy with the evidence provided (as well as xZone proving Thor’s ability to Bulrush).

Tally: xZone 2, Kevd4wg 2

3) Lightning/Weather Manipulation: Thor's Lightning has already put Hela down twice for over a minute On-Screen

Clearly one area that Thor will utilize, his main attack! But Massive point to Kev for proving that Hela’s necroblades are all it takes to shut off Thors cloak. I honestly believe this will happen to him.

Tally: xZone 2, Kevd4wg 3

4) Stormbreaker: This weapon has already One-Shot Thanos On-Screen, and it will do the same to Hela

I didn’t believe that Stormbreaker could be destroyed like Mojinir, So point to xZone. I did believe that Thanos could dodge with knowledge of the weapon, also that that will leave Thor open with 2 opponents. So point a piece.

Tally: xZone 3, Kevd4wg 4

In the end @kevd4wg gets my vote, it was close! so well done to you both.

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#399 Edited by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio
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#400 Posted by Bayman007 (1956 posts) - - Show Bio
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