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#201 Posted by ourmanuel (11873 posts) - - Show Bio
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#202 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
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#203 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: Well, I already was expecting that from you

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#204 Posted by DiarrheaRegatta (5143 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh.

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#205 Posted by ourmanuel (11873 posts) - - Show Bio
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#206 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: Yo! I got your notification! Are they fixed?

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#207 Edited by ourmanuel (11873 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: holy shit, I got your notification too!!

Damn, it kinda sucks having you of all people as my first notification in days...

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#209 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
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#210 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (4881 posts) - - Show Bio
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#211 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
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#212 Edited by rem (2742 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m sure gonna have a lot to say once this is open for votes.

I will admit, seeing these makes me want to CaV in the future.

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#213 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@rem: See now I’m wondering if that’s because Kev and myself are doing well, or because we aren’t ha

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#214 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

Bad post.

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JK, not bad Xone.

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#215 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio

@rem said:

I’m sure gonna have a lot to say once this is open for votes.

Basically this except I might not even vote.

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#216 Posted by nfactor1995 (12929 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#218 Posted by macleen (3590 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure whether to cry or laugh, but T4V, nice post guys

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#219 Posted by Alavanka (2590 posts) - - Show Bio

It's nice to see a debate where people are arguing tactics and feats, without ridiculous lowballing statements.

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#220 Posted by darthvaderrocks (1490 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree with a lot of xZone's points but hey, at least you admitted Hulk is physically stronger than Thor so by default admitting Thanos is physically stronger than Thor as well.

Still a solid post without too much low-balling.

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#221 Edited by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthvaderrocks: I don’t think I’ve ever denied Thanos was far superior to Thor physically

Thanks btw

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#222 Posted by Tyger (461 posts) - - Show Bio

How... Why is this a thing?

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#224 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Decent post.

Can't wait for Kev to tear it to pieces though.

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#225 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
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#226 Posted by Rajjar (1904 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone

So after the revisions in strategies, voters should evaluate this battle as bloodlusted, but in character all the same, right?

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#227 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@rajjar: Yes, exactly. Still to the best of their abilities, but they are in character

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#228 Posted by ourmanuel (11873 posts) - - Show Bio

This CaV just might be what we’ve all needed...

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#229 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

Shameless Bump

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#230 Posted by Syntix (566 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh lol i forgot about this CaV, let me read this.

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#231 Posted by Nucleon (3451 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Epic response. Heckuva work.

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#232 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
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#233 Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks (287 posts) - - Show Bio

@xZone: T4V. I don't think I'll have much in the way of constructive criticism given I'm relatively new to debating, but it'll be fun just reading your arguments. Best of luck to you and Kev. Not that either of you need it ;)

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#234 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
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#235 Edited by LeonardSnart (2803 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't vote for someone who says Thor is more skilled than the person who wrecked him so much in h2h she "expected more" from him

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#236 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
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#237 Posted by LeonardSnart (2803 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: that's not a jab, just a prelude to my vote

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#238 Posted by APEX_pretador (20869 posts) - - Show Bio

Why?

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#239 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

Shameless Bump

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#240 Edited by CRUSHYOURENEMIES (2568 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL@ thor being faster and more skilled than hela even though she whooped him easily on screen

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but hey it's to be expected since the Thor side has always been HIGHLY questionable

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#241 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
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#242 Posted by CRUSHYOURENEMIES (2568 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

@crushyourenemies: Quit trolling in my CAVs

X

it's not trolling when it's true.

look at the other comments.

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#243 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
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#244 Posted by LeonardSnart (2803 posts) - - Show Bio

@crushyourenemies: xZone actually proved to me that Thor is in fact slightly more skilled, the only time hela got the upper hand was when she used her strength (like in the gif you posted)

I don't mean to crash the party again but I felt the need to point that out

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#245 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for readers

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#246 Posted by DarkPsychicLord_Prime (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

xZone actually proved to me that Thor is in fact slightly more skilled, the only time hela got the upper hand was when she used her strength (like in the gif you posted)

I don't mean to crash the party again but I felt the need to point that out

Exactly what i feel, and i previously believed Hela to be the superior one.

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#247 Posted by Kevd4wg (12798 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2: What were you the God of Again?

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Introduction

Throughout this post I will prove that Hela and Thanos beat Thor. It's that simple, no reason to focus on specific advantages, when we can clearly see, and something you've mentioned in your post, no matter what advantages Thor "might have" in other areas, it didn't stop Hela from manhandling him. With that out of the way, lets start the debate

***Note Xzone repeated himself a lot so I'm just skipping repeated stuff for the most part

***Second Note, apologies for any salt, Xzone and I talked it out in a pm, we just enjoy debating more on the salty side

Character Superiority

Thor vs Hela

Thor was clearly outpacing Hela until she overpowered him with her hax

Ah gif #2, as in one of 3 gifs you post of Thor vs Hela to suggest that Thor had a speed edge or really any kind of edge at all, but lets look at the entire fight because you know, that seems like a better judge of what's happening.

So what happens? Well the fight starts with Thor blocking Necroblades and trying to press some kind of advantage while he has ranged weapons and Hela doesn't, but he can't land a single clean hit on Hela while Hela dodges it easily and throws him behind her, taking him out of the fight for a few seconds. Then she's taken off guard by Valkyrie, allowing Thor to get close to her and block blades, but again Thor can't get a clean hit on Hela, only managing to affect her by lightning coming off of the sword. Then Hela after easily dodging him hitting it into the bifrost, pops up and overloads him with necroblades. Presumably the only reason the fight doesn't end right there is because Valkyrie is there to distract Hela long enough for Thor to get up before Hela chops his head off. Next we have the gif you posted above, where Hela puts her arm forward to throw a necroblade and Thor grabs it and throws her. How doing that is outpacing Hela, I don't know. Furthermore, the throw does literally nothing, mid air Hela is fine throwing necroblades at Valkyrie. Once again Hela tags Thor with a necroblade and the only reason she doesn't kill him is because she has to stop the ship from fleeing, but if she didn't, headless Thor.

This battle makes it pretty clear, without Hela being distracted by so many factors, not only would Thor not have done as well, but he would have had his head chopped off. I mean, by the end of the fight, you can see how bad of shape him and Valkyrie are in while Hela is completely fine.

Literally just one Necroblade put Thor out the entire time that Skurge decided to become good, without Skurge and the Ship, Hela could've easily killed Thor and Valkyrie. The only reason that Thor lasted as long as he did was because of how many things Hela had to deal with in the final battle and up until Surtur showed up, she was still winning, and easily at that.

Actually, you're confusing Hela using her vastly superior power with Hela using speed or skill. Thor was able to outmaneuver Hela for a time, but her blades give her extended reach which is the only reason she slashed Thor in the gut. Look closely, and you will see Thor was about to hit Hela in the face again before he was slashed. You will also see that Hela's arm was not long enough to hit Thor, so she extended her reach with blades. This is not a skill or speed showing, but a showing of hax. Thor was clearly faster, but Hela overcame his speed with hax. Once Thor had his own hax he was clearly controlling the fight

So what you're saying is, that before Thor could move his fist like a few inches to hit Hela, Hela pulled out a sword and easily gutted him, moving farther then Thor did.

But this somehow doesn't directly show that Hela was faster then Thor and is instead a "hax" showing?

Thor shatters Hela's blades, then rag dolls her. To me, it looks like the sword hit Hela, but even if it didn't, Stormbreaker has further reach and would have hit Hela in this situation

Firstly, as I mentioned earlier, the only reason Thor even got this close to tagging Hela was because Valkyrie distracted her, secondly the sword obviously didn't come close to hitting Hela. I mean, just look at this screenshot

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See where the lightning is coming off of, that's where the sword is, and you can see it's like a foot away from Hela.

Additionally, Stormbreaker having longer reach doesn't mean that Hela would stay the same distance from Thor, that's not how combat works. If Thor has a weapon with longer reach, then Hela would just move back, it's simple. You're acting like Hela would approach Stormbreaker like it was the sword Thor had in Ragnarok.

Thor destroys a blade, then grabs Hela and throws her before she can do anything. This Skill/Speed feat allows Thor plenty of time to hit Hela with Stormbreaker

Well, your one off gifs do make a convincing argument that Thor can throw Hela when Hela sticks her arm out basically into Thor's chest, but I'm really failing to see how this gif proves Thor is either faster or more skilled then Hela. I mean I don't see how using this is any different then me say posting this

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To say Hela is supremely faster and more skilled then Thor, but it's not, because it's a one off moment from their fight where Hela had put Thor in a disadvantageous position.

Thor tags Hela with Swords twice. These Swords would be Stormbreaker in the battle we are currently discussing

So? At best he barely touches her helmet, but I honestly think that's just the lightning and even so Stormbreaker is not some Magical one-shot weapon. To one-shot Hela with Stormbreaker, Thor has to actually land a fatal blow, which he failed to do with Gungir or his swords, so why would he be able to do it with the bulkier Stormbreaker.

Clearly, Thor was controlling the fight post amp

Firstly, Thor wasn't doing shit. That fight was Thor + Valkyrie, which is the only reason Thor lasted as long as he did and even then, Thor and Valkyrie would have had their heads cut off if not for the ship leaving and Skurge deciding to be a hero. I have literally no idea how you decided Thor was controlling the fight. I posted Thor struggling to get up while Hela was completely fine, does that seem like "controlling the fight" to you much less Clearly controlling the fight.

I ask my opponent to show ONE instance after Thor had his lightning amp where Hela was controlling the fight. Sure, she hit Thor with blades, once while he wasn't looking, and a second time where Thor didn't have a decent weapon to shield with, but he healed and was fighting again less than 15 seconds afterwards (Probably sooner because the scene cut back to Hela and Thor in combat, so 5-10 seconds is probably more accurate)

Where he wasn't looking??? He literally blocked the blade before it, and Hela overloaded him, how the hell was he not looking. You posted it in your reaction section as him looking at the one before it and reacting to it so obviously he was looking. Like honestly what the hell. And Thor had a sword with lightning coming off of it to shield with. He blocked it with lightning before, saying "he didn't have a weapon" is a bit of a cop out when he was doing just fine with the lightning.

Literally every time Hela decided to overload Thor with necroblades(which she did 2/3 times once she did it once/figured out to do it), Thor got tagged.

And 15 seconds is not the entire time. Remember, that's the entire scene of Hela impaling the ship, Skurge seeing people getting killed and deciding to be a hero, Skurge jumping off the ship, Skurge killing the fodder one by one, and Hela deciding to kill Skurge. Both Valkyrie and Thor were down the entire time. Now imagine that during that time instead of Thor having all these distractions, he's ganged up 2 to 1. And as soon as he gets hit, which as we saw at the end of Ragnarok with Valk and Thor vs Hela, a 2v1 is very helpful, he's out because once Thanos starts pounding on him, he's not getting up before Hela cuts his head off.

As soon as Thor had hax of his own he wasn't put down close range once, and was only put down for a few seconds long range because he didn't have Stormbreaker to block with, something he has now

He could block with lightning just fine, he just failed to do so. Having a weapon won't magically make Thor incapable of being tagged through strategies that tagged him before, even through the great lightning cloak. Plus, that close range argument is kinda bullshit, he got hit twice at range, which took him out for quite a while, and him and Valk were executing basically a hit and run strategy, which won't help him at all in this fight since he's outnumbered.

1) You literally just showed a perfect example of Hela overpowering Thor. Hela is far stronger than Thor, especially when he hadn't even unlocked his full abilities yet. This was not a demonstration of skill by Hela, but a demonstration of overpowering an opponent

You're right, Hela did overpower Thor at the end of the gif, but there's also this thing called the middle of a gif, where Hela is clearly using speed/skill and not strength

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2) You act like being stabbed by Gungnir is not a big deal, but it is. One cut from Stormbreaker will cut Hela clean in half, and the fact that Thor could hit Hela in the chest with Gungnir proves he can do the same with Stormbreaker, a weapon he is far more familiar with

I'll get to Stormbreaker's piercing in a bit, but let's talk about this Stormbreaker > gungir thing. Firstly, in what world is Thor more familiar with Stormbreaker, much less "far more." He literally had it for like 15 minutes, whereas Gungir is the weapon of the Royal Family, obviously he's going to know how to use it. And like I said Stormbreaker and Gungir are different weapons. Just look at what Thor does with Gungir above, there's literally no way he's doing that with Stormbreaker, it's simply too bulky.

3) Hela blocked Gungnir multiple times there, if she were to try the same thing against Stormbreaker she would lose her hand, then be cut in half

I'm not convinced it would honestly. Even if somehow Asgardians being bullet proof is an unpopular opinion on the vine, at the very least there armor can no-sell it. Like Sif's armor to a shotgun blast in AoS or Thor in AoU to an assault rifle round

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Now, the best piercing durability feat Thanos had was shrugging off assault rifle fire, and there is reason to believe his piercing durability might not stack up with his other durability considering the scene with Gamora's blades. However, if you look at how deep Stormbreaker went into Thanos, it's not as far as you might think.

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In all honesty, if it only did that much to Hela, she would have no problem shrugging it off. And before you bring up the IG beam, the Russos confirmed it wasn't that big for Stormbreaker because Stormbreaker was made of the same properties as the gauntlet. Overall I don't see why Stormbreaker pierces significantly harder then Gungir, as it also pierced Asgardian armor to the same depth which has the same level feats as Stormbreaker, and it couldn't even leave a Mark on Hela when she blocked it with her gauntlets, so why would Stormbreaker.

Once again, this is a clear showing of Hela's stat advantage over Thor at the time. She easily blocked Gungnir, then overpowered Thor with one arm. This feat also clearly shows that Hela will block In Character. Do you really think Hela will survive attempting to block Stormbreaker?

Yeah I think she will, with like minimal difficulties. Hela also liked to dodge a lot. She never blocked Thor's swords, only dodged them, and she dodged Gungir as well. Blocking is not a set thing for Hela to do.

I'm discussing Thor's Speed and Skill. I thought you were trying to counter that, but all I'm seeing is a massive stat advantage. It is simply incorrect to say Thor, who lacked his Lightning amp and Stormbreaker, being overpowered by Hela is proof that Hela is more skilled

Firstly, I never did, though forcing Thor into a position where he is outmuscled is part of skill, but secondly, it doesn't matter if you're discussing speed and skill. Hela managed to stomp Thor before he had allies and lightning each and every time, partially due to being able to abuse physicals. You can't just ignore that and pretend it wasn't a stomp because we're talking about speed and skill. Battles are more then just boiling down to individual elements. Hela is extremely good at abusing physicals and working it into combat, for which Thor has failed to stop on 3 different occasions.

As to amping his physicals... Thor had his two best strength feats in IW, but it matters little to the battle at hand and to the fact that Thor is faster and more skilled

Better feats =/= an amp. Do you know what happened between the rings and Ragnarok? Thor got his shit beat in and then almost died. Does that sound like an amp to you?

Thor clearly was able to tag Hela, anything after that point is moot because she won't survive the initial hit from Stormbreaker

This is basically like plugging your ears and saying "nananananana" to avoid arguments. This is literally the only time Thor ever landed a hit on Hela with a bladed weapon, despite trying to on 9 other different occasions by my count. And he only did it with a move that cannot be done with Stormbreaker. He tries to throw Stormbreaker that way and he's going to hit Hela with the flat edge on the top, which will do nothing.

Again, you're clearly using a stat advantage to counter my Skill and Speed claims. All Hela does here is briefly trade blows with Thor, then hold him by the neck. He is clearly unable to loosen her grip via strength. This in NO way shows Hela is more skilled than Thor, but that she was far stronger

And that doesn't change the fact that Hela absolutely dominated him. I never claimed this was skill or speed, I was simply showing just how easily and just how hard Hela was stomping Thor. Thor can have all the speed and skill advantages you want to argue(he doesn't), but it still wouldn't change what happened here.

Even in the gif you yourself provided Hela is on the defensive side of the fight because of how much faster and skilled Thor is. Anyone without bias can see Thor is controlling the fight with speed. Had Thor been wielding Stormbreaker, a weapon with further reach, he would have decapitated Hela then and there

Wut? For one, he only attacked that fast because he had 2 swords. Guess how many Stormbreakers Thor has? Secondly, Stormbreaker is not as fluid or quick a weapon as a sword. I mean the gif you keep posting with the outriders, just compare it to the gif of Thor attacking Hela.

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It's obvious which one is much faster with their weapon. And with the swords Thor is doing repeated attacks on one place, with Stormbreaker he gets to move with the axe, which would make it more fluid. Plus, Hela is not going to see Stormbreaker has more reach and stay in the same place lol. That doesn't make any sense.

Hela, slightly. Thanos? No.. Goodness No...

It's not like Thor has shown any great amount of skill to make any skilled opponent as far below him as you are making out Thanos to be, come on now.

<Sigh> Don't mean to sound rude here, but you totally missed the point.. Like the point went right over your head... This isn't about Thor beating Three Asgardian soliders, but the fact that he effortlessly out-skilled them, AND that he didn't kill one of them which requires precision as well. Hela utilized her Hax and Strength in that fight, and she killed the Asgardians which is far easier than not killing them. All of that besides, she still ended up relying on her HF because she was stabbed. Thor on the other hand, out-skilled the Asgardians he was fighting without using his hax, and without killing them. I only mention the not killing because it shows that he isn't using his stats to beat them, but his skill, otherwise he could have sent them flying with casual hits. Hela killing those Asgardians can be replicated by just about anyone with similar abilities

I'll take killing, hax, and having to use HF once vs hundreds of soldiers over taking a long time to beat 3. If Thor was actually skilled, he wouldn't have taken as long. Furthermore, I'm not sure why you're posting solo feats for Thor when Hela has outskilled him on screen. like in the gif I posted just above. Even so, Hela was still easily fodderizing them in H2H as well like here

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That draws an interesting parallel to Thor's feat as here Hela lol stomps Asgardians in H2H in seconds, whereas Thor struggled for quite an amount of time and sure you can say tHoR wASn'T tRYiNg tO KilL tHeM, but if his feat was truly as good as Hela's, Thor would've replicated it, but just pulled his punches. I'll use your wording here, anyone who isn't bias can see Hela's feat is better.

Furthermore, being able to use their "hax" is skil, and Hela showed fantastic use of her necroblades during her fight against Asgard's army.

1) Thor can just as easily use Stormbreaker as he did a sword as I've already shown

Just look at the 2 gifs you posted

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Do those really look like the same speed, skill, and precision to you?

Hits her in the face twice

He like grazes her at best. You do realize that Stormbreaker isn't an automatic one-shot right? It doesn't matter how potent it is, it has to land a mortal wound on Hela for Hela to not just easily heal it off.

Straight up grabs Hela before she can react and throws her. This is more than fast enough to hit Hela with Stormbreaker

Only when Hela's armor was already overextended due to shooting the necroblade. This is legitimately maybe the only time in all their fights where Thor was shown to be faster then Hela. Literally THE ONLY TIME

It's more than enough of a blitz to hit Hela with Stormbreaker, and that's what matters. The evidence is overwhelming that Thor will hit Hela before she can tag him

It's the same gif OVER and OVER again. One moment that happened without context is not an argument. Plus, here instead of having Valkyrie helping Thor get into these advantageous positions, which is the only reason that Hela didn't destroy Thor easily, yet now Hela has Thanos. The positions are completely reversed from a battle where Hela was winning against 2, one of which was Thor to where now Hela has the help and it's a lot more useful then Valkyrie. What does Thor have to compensate? An axe, that's it.

Thor clearly outpaced Hela and would have hit her had he been using Stormbreaker

How is using lightning to ragdoll Hela outpacing? Literally the only speed in this gif is Thor failing to tag Hela while Hela was on the ground and Thor couldn't tag her at all with his sword.

Necroblade

On-Screen Thor gets back up in less than 15 seconds after these, further reinforcing the fact that Thor's HF can cover for Thor here

I want you to count to 15. That's a long ass time. For reference the entire encounter in the bifrost where Hela almost cuts Thor's head off is 6 seconds. If Thor gets tagged and put down for 15 seconds by a necroblade that only barely touched him, he's as good as dead in this fight. Hell, the only reason he didn't die right then was Valkyrie, now there's Thanos helping Hela.

Not really fair to use this when Thor was not even looking

>blocks the first one which you even used as a reaction feat

>Wasn't even looking

like wut? Hela clearly just overwhelmed him.

Very nice catch, your reputation is well earned. Unfortunately, there is a small problem with that. As you see in those images, it wasn't blocking the blades that was the problem, Thor was able to block with his arm, it was that Thor couldn't fully destroy the multiple blades

Thor could block them with large amounts of lightning. And if he's spending the whole battle just blocking necroblades, he's not winning. If he does this then Thanos, just starts pounding on him. But anyway, talking about the feats posted, the first is dodging, the second and third are the same and he literally fails to block it, so only the 3rd one is viable. But if Thor is trying to block it with Stormbreaker then Hela can just shoot 2 at once with him, which he could only block due to lightning. Like I keep mentioning, nothing is just a clear advantage, every amp comes with a downside.

So, no, Thanos is doing nothing to Thor, especially because more than likely he's getting one-shot right off the bat

So what happens when Thor throws Stormbreaker at Thanos? Since then he has no counter to being knocked out of the sky, and then immediately killed by Hela.

not to mention that most of the feats Kev is using are against a non amped Thor

Thor got a lightning amp and Stormbreaker. Neither really changes how utterly and completely Hela destroyed him in H2H.

Thor vs Thanos

Yeah... Beating the Hulk isn't very impressive... Thor was able to similarly embarrass the Hulk while Thor was holding back

Was it here?

Because here it looks like Hulk was totally embarrassing Thor, but...

And after that part with the lightning amp, we didn't see even close to enough of a fight to say "who embarressed who" much less to say that stomping Hulk isn't impressive. Hulk physically bullied Thor on screen and Thanos physically bullied him on screen. It's pretty obvious if Thanos gets his hands on Thor, it's over. And with Necroblades that keep Thor out of the fight for 15 seconds flying around, that's not a hard thing to do.

And this matters.. Why? You already admitted with Thor's Cloak Thor>Hulk. Now Thor has Stormbreaker that already one-shot Thanos, so I'm not sure how Thanos is even remotely a factor here.

So it's not important that Thor is ridiculously outclassed in physicals? By not one, but both of the fighters he's facing.

That's besides the fact that you just showed why Thanos is hilariously slower than Hulk. It took Thanos ages to react to Hulk, while Thor was the one outmaneuvering Hulk. It's possible Thanos was intentionally Tanking Hulk's punches, but that would only reinforce the idea that Thanos wouldn't try to dodge Stormbreaker, but I'll get to that in a bit

Are you seriously arguing that Thanos couldn't react to Hulk? I'm sorry, but that is some complete Bullshit. Maw even said, "let him have his fun", and then Thanos did more of a blitz against him(not actually a blitz) then Thor could even dream of doing against Hela.

I'm not gonna argue Thor can physically beat Thanos because I don't need to,

You don't? Do you like literally think Thor will never get tagged?

but we really can't be sure Thanos would kill Thor with his lightning amp. We never saw the fight between Thor and Thanos, and both of them were destroying the Hulk, but Thor was holding back while Thanos wasn't

  1. Show me Thor holding back post hitting him with the War Hammer
  2. Show me where Thor destroyed Hulk remotely to the same degree as Thanos did, I mean come on dude

As to the skill/speed bit, you gotta stop making me laugh so hard. Thanos, as you already stated, was vastly physically superior to Hulk while Thor was physically weaker than Hulk for most the fight

Yeah, but here's the thing, once Thanos started hitting, Hulk never got a single hit in, he was too fast and too skilled to be hit, unfortunately for Thor, he can't say the same.

This proves literally nothing... The scene is cut kinda weird, so it's hard to tell exactly how it went down. That's besides the fact that Thor is winding up a weapon while Thanos is just firing a beam from the IG

So Thanos moving at the very least comparable speeds to Thor means nothing despite the fact you're trying to argue that Thor will blitz him? I mean you say Thanos is just firing a blast from the IG, but he is recovering from a blast, standing up, and firing a blast, while all Thor has to do is throw a weapon. Which one of those sounds faster to you? Plus since you pointed it out, it does seem like Thor needs some time to throw Stormbreaker. He does that here, and Hela shoots a necroblade into him, which as we've established is the end of the fight.

Counters to X

Flight

Kurse: Thor wasn't able to use his flight strategically for anything but a bullrush because he had to try to stop Malekith and Kurse from leaving the Dark World. Kurse reacted to the bullrush and knocked Thor away. Thor wasn't able to fly again because when he called Mjolnir back to himself, Kurse knocked it away. This will won't happen with Stormbreaker because it spins when flying back to Thor and it has an edge that would kill anyone on this team trying to redirect the Axe.

Firstly, you do realize that only like 1/4 of Stormbreaker's edge is sharp right? Not like the entire blade. Secondly, Thor absolutely had the chance to bullrush. Having to stop Kurse from leaving the Dark World doesn't mean he only fight him in the air, like what? Plus, what did that bullrush do other then take him from a distance into CQC.

And furthermore, while he did bullrush he never did what you're claiming, stay in the sky and rain down lightning, which he had the opportunity to do instead of just bullrush. Reviewing some stuff, I'll concede that Thor uses bullrushes, mostly as an opener to fights, but he never, never has just stayed in the sky and rained down lightning like you're saying. The Destroyer fight is the closest thing he's ever done to that

Thor bullrushes Malekith

Oh look, Thor is in the sky away from lightning, perfect opportunity to keep his distance and rain down lightning, what does he do? Oh yeah, uses a bullrush to get into CQC.

Thor uses his flight to hit Malekith with lightning more easily

Look at that, does Thor fry Malekith from lightning in the sky? Nope, he lands on the ground and hits him with lightning there. It's almost like you're debunking your own points

Thor doesn't need to land now though, because he can levitate with Stormbreaker and spam lightning like this

He's literally moving toward Thanos in this instance. Thor has never need to land to use lightning, that's never even been implied, Thor just doesn't rain down lightning from the sky.

Thor blitzes Surter via flight

First of all, this is once again you labeling something that doesn't even resemble a blitz a blitz, but once again this is Thor moving into CQC and keeping within Surtur's range, literally proving my point once again.

Blitzes Loki through the Bifrost

Oh look, Thor is at a distance, and chooses to close the distance into H2H. Thus far, literally every single instance you've posted supports the fact that Thor won't stay at a distance and rain down lightning. Even in Ragnaork, he fought Hela and the Asgardian soldiers primarily in CQC.

Well, the teams start at opposite ends of the bifrost bridge, so Thor has more than enough time to bullrush, but Thor can accelerate to high speeds in a second

So it takes him a second to not quite cross the Bifrost? Do you really think that Thanos and Hela can't react within a second, even IRL olympians can react within .2 seconds.

Characters are fighting to the best of their abilities here, so I don't see why Thor won't be bullrushing at Mach One. Thanos isn't powerful compared to Thor here, and power has nothing to do with it anyways, it has to do with reacting to Thor flying at mach one wielding an Axe that can one-shot Thanos or Hela

Firstly let's look at Stormbreaker

No Caption Provided

See that top part of it, the part that Thor would hit something with if he tried to bullrush. That wouldn't impale Wonder Woman, much less Thanos and Hela, so yeah, they can shrug off a bullrush. Secondly, just because Thor can fly at a speed while just trying to fly forward does not mean he can instantly accelerate to that speed targeting a specific point like he's doing in this battle.

This is actually very untrue. Most of the time Thor was killing fodder and protecting the Asgardians, so this long drawn out fight you speak of never really happened. Thor uses Lightning bolts at least four times on-screen, twice on Hela. Quite honestly, at this point I think you're using PIS. If Thor spammed these bolts forever it would get a bit boring. This is all besides the fact that you have literally no evidence Hela needed to be distracted here. Sure, she was, but that doesn't mean she needed to be, especially when Thor has already shown the ability to use these bolts casually

Ah, we have reached the ultimate cop out, PIS. Waiti and co obviously put a lot of thought into the final battle, how Hela was always distracted when Thor was out so it wouldn't be PIS, how Thor could block Necroblades, but Hela overwhelmed him so it wasn't PIS, but now we're talking about PIS because guess what, Thor doesn't fight the way you think. You say PIS, I say what Thor has done and continues to do on screen.

Thor used lightning bolts twice on Hela, both times with plenty of build up, it's obvious his powerful bolts have some effort, unless the second time Thor summoned the massive bolt he was just standing there chilling and waited to summon the bolt?

Also, since Thor is the one who will be leading this fight due to his travel speed advantage, he will open with lightning as he already has before

Proof Thor can use lightning mid bullrush? Especially mid mach 1 bullrush?

Like this?

Already went over this feat, but the powerful bolt only destroyed the balcony, Hela and Thanos aren't standing on top of each other

or like this?

Because those bolts suck and obviously aren't the same as the bifrost busting one?

Or this.. It's also worth noting that the destruction in this scene is confirmed to be from the shockwave caused by Thor's attack

It's funny, you chastise me for using a script later, but whatever. Anyway, you can clearly tell it's just the ice collapsing on itself after a short period of time. Firstly, the ice layer is extremely thin and ice isn't very durable, so the output isn't remotely comparable to the same size in say a city. But anyway, the ice was collapsing, but parts that were supported were not collapsing

Pretty obvious it's not just Thor's strike

First, I'm not talking about Thor just sitting in the air forever, but he probably will levitate in the air and use a few lightning strikes like he's done before

I want one instance of Thor sitting in the sky using lightning strikes

One

Second, Talk about using OOC arguments... Why didn't she use these on Thor earlier? Or on Valkyrie? You say why didn't Thor call down more lightning strikes on Hela even though he used them on her TWICE, but you say Hela will use these massive blades on Thor when she hasn't once. Come now, at least keep it down to a double standard...

Because they were on the bifrost? How the hell were those blades going to reach them, like do you even think about some of the stuff you say? Anyway, as soon as Hela sees a target up in the air and out of reach like Giant Surtur, guess what she does? Hint: It's what you said was OOC.

1) You're the one who didn't even want to finish this CAV if we were using OOC arguments, yet here you are suggesting that Thanos will do something he could have done in this film, but didn't. Come on, man... Thanos clearly likes to tank attacks, like Hulk's, Stark's and Thor's

So Thanos is going to see something that's already killed him(and before you say we're using pre-IW versions, you're arguing Thor has a bunch of experience with Stormbreaker so...) and tank it again? Sure Thanos liked to tank stuff, but he's not a moron.

2) That's besides the fact that Thor can telepathically control Stormbreaker, so dodging isn't an option

Leaving Thor exposed to catch a necroblade and the battle to be over

3) What's Hela gonna do?

Hit him and chop his head off? Seems like it would do the trick

Lightning/Weather Manipulation

1) It really doesn't look like she fell in to a hole created by Surter... Surter was far from Hela and she fell in to the water, not a hole in the earth, and furthermore, the script doesn't say the hole was caused by Surter from what I see

It's not really important that the hole was caused by Sutur, but ok, here's that part

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And secondly, this is gonna be a really crazy, novel idea. But Holes can be underwater. Wild I know, it's almost like there's these things called trenches in the ocean or something. But that would probably be stupid.

2) Does that expression on Hela's face scream "fine" to you? She looks like she's in some serious pain...

Pain is not at all Koed. Thor felt pain when Hela choked him, guess that's the end of the battle, gg. Furthermore, that showing of pain itself makes it clear she wasn't koed as she was clearly conscious. So as they say

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3) The script is obviously not correct here because it says Thor pulled Valkyrie from Hela's clutches, something obviously not seen on-screen. Scripts are important, but not when they are directly contradicted by On-Screen evidence

That's one small, insignificant detail that's not important to what I'm mentioning. I mean if this is a problem then I guess we have to throw out any script with anything remotely related to it that 's contradicted by on screen evidence(btw, that's everything you have with the script). The Script isn't contradicting what's happening on-screen, it's adding more info to it and makes a whole lot more sense then Hela being koed since Thor even said "I can't beat her" which if he could easily KO her, doesn't really seem right.

4) Even if ALL of what you said was true, why would it matter? The fact remains that Hela was off-screen for over a minute. Do you really think Hela is just chilling under water for a minute? Totally fine, unharmed, just sitting there for a full minute? Come on, Kev, Hela would not just sit there while Surter was destroying her kingdom. Clearly she was incapacitated

Yeah she was stuck in a giant fissure. I thought that was pretty obvious, it was basically BFR. I mean, Thor was taken out for a minute when Skurge became a hero long before this even when Valkyrie was helping him, so....

5) About Dragonfang, Thor has clearly shown the ability to casually call down lightning. Just because he used his lightning this way this time doesn't mean that it is required, especially when On-Screen evidence shows otherwise

Yeah no shit he can call down lightning without dragonfang, however he's channeling the lightning directly into Hela through dragon fang, basically Thor can't replicate this kind of damage against Hela normally(which also hints at the blast on the palace being abnormal)

I don't believe I said Thor was going to win, but he was clearly outpacing Hela

My favorite part of outpacing Hela was how Hela was fighting 2+ opponents, but was winning the fight without much difficulty

Prove it. That's pure speculation. Plus, he does use something similar again

The thing on the bridge isn't remotely close to what happened on the palace, which in and of itself is speculation. He's never replicated that kind of bolt.

No, I don't think so, and the burden of proof is on you to prove it requires more effort

Literally the fact he had any effort like jumping down is evidence and Thor took a good amount of time to do this one. Like do you think Thor was just chilling until he wanted to use the bolt?

When has Thor fought Loki that this would actually be useful? Avengers one? Why would he use a tornado at Stark's building when he was already stomping Loki? There was seriously no reason

I like how you conveniently name dropped Avengers, knowing that the end of Thor 1 was a perfect time for Thor to incap with a Tornado.

Seriously? At what point did Thor need to use Weather Manipulation against the chitari? He was mostly fighting fodder who were one-shot, same with the Dark Elves and Outriders

Seems like it would've been really helpful against Kurse/Malekith on the Dark World or Malekith at the end of the movie.

Seriously, at which point of their small fight should Thor have used weather manipulation? I'd really like to know

Any of it

Hela crushed Mjolnir... Thor hasn't shown the ability to make tornados without Mjolnir

And his first move was to throw Mjolnir and not make a tornado.

Well, because we can see the cloak activated as Thor bullrushes the Ship, so it makes sense for the cloak to be doing this damage

That's one explanation out of like 10. We can't tell what's happening, the only reason you're saying it's cloak is to support you're argument. I mean I see Stormbreaker before he goes in, that means it has to be Stormbreaker right? And furthermore, look at the patter, that'd be a really, really weird way for Thor to fly to destroy it.

Thanos shrugged off a lightning blast from Thor that is unquantifiable. Thor's lightning blasts from the sky kept Hela off-screen for over a minute both of the times that she was hit by them

So now Thor's lightning blasts operate at different levels. Well that's interesting.

Do you not see the lightning clearly latching off Thor and on to the thresher?

There is nothing "clear" about what happened there in the slightest, it's literally like 1/10 of the screen in 1 second on the side and w/o focus.

1) Care to prove that the blast that hit Thanos>Thor's Cloak?

What's more powerful, a direct blast, or indirect feed off, gee I wonder.

2) Like I said above, Hela was off-screen for over a minute both of the times that Thor hit her with serious lightning blasts

Neither of which he managed to pull off mid combat when he had ample opportunity.

3) And Thor has already shown the ability to avoid those blades and can block them via Stormbreaker

Which doesn't change the fact you're arguing Thor will get rid of Stormbreaker ASAP to take care of Thanos and that he easily got overwhelmed, while outnumbering Hela I might add.

1) Hulk didn't get up for about 10 seconds. He also was severely dazed even when he did get up

He seemed pretty well off, and it's worth noting that Thor was also just getting up, meaning he was taken down by his own punch, which is kinda pathetic ngl.

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2) The second part of your comment made me laugh... How does Hela no-selling Thor's non lightning amped punches have anything at all to do with Thor's lightning amped punches? Especially when I'm showing how much more powerful his lightning amped punches are than normal punches

Well, I spelled it out for you, which you somehow couldn't understand. Thor staggered Hulk with normal punches, but couldn't do shit to Hela, so if Hulk could get over lightning punches, it won't be a problem for Hela, especially since Thor will never land a hit that clean on Hela.

So.. Speculation? Thor still got up from Hela's stabs in less than 15 seconds on-screen

Bruh, you're legitimately the one speculating about this healing factor, it's all circumstantial evidence. 15 seconds is death to someone like Thor who can be one-shot in this fight

This is more or less reinforcing Thor's HF, and again, this was in space where Thor couldn't even breath

Thor doesn't need to breath so that's a mute point

Stormbreaker

Except for the massive blade? Also, Mjolnir flew in a straight line that was easy for Hela to catch

It's not like Stormbreaker spins incredibly fast, Hela can just grab the vast majority of the blade that doesn't have the blade.

Stormbreaker is obviously different

Foreshadowing to later in Xzone's post where he contradicts this

Why is it that Thor can't just as casually Throw Stormbreaker like this? Thor has thrown Mjolnir in this same motion

Oh look, that was quicker then I expected, literally contradicting yourself in the next counter. Remember what I said about Stormbreaker earlier, if Thor tries to throw Stormbreaker like this, it aint piercing shit, just leaving him defenseless.

Thor clearly has just as much skill and speed with Stormbreaker as he does with a sword. Also, what durability feats do Hela and Thanos have to survive an axe in their chest?

He literally does not. Stormbreaker is inherently an unwieldy weapon. Look at how he's fighting, moving with each swing, it's not the same as the swords where he can put on pressure.

Gees, well that would have been a splendid thing for Thanos to have done on-screen, but he didn't. He chose to attempt to block or tank the attack. To deny that is simply denying On-Screen evidence, and it would also be an OOC argument, but even if they tried to dodge it, they wouldn't get far

So Thanos is going to do what he already did that led him to death because reasons?

As for the telepathic Stormbreaker control(lol), when one is being chased by Stormbreaker, the other just beats the Hela out of Thor, pretty simple.

Scenarios

Scenario 1

Because he rag dolled Thanos with lightning before he could react?

Thanos legitimately didn't even know Thor was there, what kind of dumbass statement is this? Like how did you even get Thanos had the chance to react

Even if Hela somehow hit Thor with blades (She won't, because he can block and dodge them) he can heal in less than 15 seconds as seen On-Screen, and since they are hundreds of feet away from each other Thor will have far more than 15 seconds

Usain bolt can run at 28mph, even if we assume Hela isn't faster then him(outpacing Thor obviously proves she is faster, but whatever), she would still be able to move at over 40 feet per second, or in 13 seconds, over 500 feet. I don't think Thor is staying 500 feet away from Thanos and Hela. Additionally, this was just the glancing blade, it literally just clipped his soldier, the one that went inside his body took him out for over a minute.

Hela blocks Gungir multiple times here, and any one of those times would have been the end of Hela had Thor been using Stormbreaker. It might just be OOC for Hela to dodge

>might just be OOC for Hela to dodge

>Hela dodges in literally both the gif above and below this scan whereas she only ever blocked Gungir on the pointy part twice, and that still wouldn't happen with Stormbreaker since the entire tip isn't pierced. Hela can easily block the side of Stormbreaker like she did Gungir.

I've already shown how Thor can use a Stormbreaker just as easily as a Sword. Stormbreaker has further reach which means it will easily reach far enough to cave Hela's chest in. It's also important to note that Hela wasn't dodging these hits. Thor hit her in the chest here with his lightning/sword. Hela only dodged when she was pinned down to the Bifrost bridge, so again, claiming she would dodge in this situation is simply OOC

Holy shit dude, you said this and then literally immediately posted this gif

No Caption Provided

Like are you high? Also, Thor clearly didn't come close to hitting Hela in that gif.

Clearly Thor is controlling the fight due to his speed, and all Hela can do is try and stay out of the way. Heck, Thor was even able to block her blades, then grab and throw Hela before she could do anything

Was Hela just "staying out of the way" when she tagged Thor twice so that if she wasn't dealing with many things she would've killed him?

I mean hitting them before they can react

Yes hitting someone while they're pinned and while they aren't looking, truly the greatest feats of blitzing/hitting before they can react of all time.

Also hitting someone before they react isn't a blitz at all, it's literally just landing a punch. I guess fodder soldiers in AoU have blitzed Thor before making him sub human speed?

Scenario 2

Because Thor never blitzes in character, right?

  1. That's a bullrush
  2. I literally mentioned that feat when I claimed it was OOC(which I've conceded)
  3. If he tries that with Stormbreaker, it'll fail... badly and fatally

If you look closely you will see Thor was about to hit Hela in the face again, and you will also see Hela's arm was not long enough to hit Thor the way she did there, so she was forced to use a blade. This means that once again this is NOT a showing of skill by Hela, but a showing of raw power and hax. Thor clearly controlled the fight in the beginning, but eventually Hela was able to counter Thor's skill/speed with her own hax/strength

So let me get this straight again for the record. Thor was like inches away from punching Hela, but in that time, Hela summoned a sword and covered a larger distance to gut Thor before he could land the punch

But that's totally not Hela being faster then Thor or anything, in fact it somehow proves she's slower, cuz you know, unbias or smth.

Once Thor unlocked his own hax there was no such counter attack from Hela

Because Thor was doing hit and run the entire time. After that scene, pairing with Valkyrie, Thor never fought Hela more then for like 15 seconds or so at once and then run. That's not a luxury he can afford here when he's outnumbered.

Scenario 3

You still have shown nothing to make Thanos anything more than a non-factor here. He is one-shot by Stormbreaker, and you have shown no real skill or speed feats for Thanos

>obviously outskills and lol stomps Hulk due to speed/skill which Thor failed to do

>no real skill or speed feats

or

>showed matching Thor in speed

>no real speed feats

I guess since matching Thor isn't a speed feat, Thor is slow?

Dancing around Thor? Which part was the best part of the dance? The part where she gets hit in the face twice by a sword? I seriously don't understand how you can say Hela is "dancing" around Thor. She dodges 2/4 hits

I still think Hela only got hit with lightning, but even if she didn't, Thor only managed to touch Hela's headdress with his ranged weaopns. Which I guess I should be impressed with for some reason?

Thor clearly abuses his speed and skill in combat, especially against those physically superior to him. Thanos was far stronger than Hulk, so to compare the two fights skill wise is ridiculous. Not to be rude, but you seem to have a slight problem distinguishing the difference between a Power/Strength advantage and a Skill/Speed advantage

You're right, I apologize, clearly if we compare the two gifs, we can see who is more skilled

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Yeah, that really looks like Thor is using more speed and skill. Plus in this instance, Thanos's physicals literally would not matter as neither of them got tagged and we're just comparing speed/skill, not who put Hulk down. In the two gifs you can clearly see Thanos landing more hits in a shorter amount of time and obviously making greater use of skill.

Xzone's first post again, but not really, but yeah it really is

Stuff you already said

More stuff you already said

...

These gifs show you just how comfortable Thor is with fighting multiple opponents at once, so facing two opponents is no issue at all for him

These opponents are all less skilled and less fast then Thor is, plus with the shield agents, he never fought more then one at once. Hell, Hela was successfully fighting(and beating) Thor and Valkyrie at the same time just because Thor can fight multiple fodder at once doesn't mean he can fight Hela and Thanos at the same time. That should be obvious

Another way Thor deals with Multiple opponents is by spinning Mjolnir, and since Stormbreaker is allowed Mjolnir's feats, he can replicate this via Stormbreaker. Just imagine Stormbreaker's blade spinning this fast

Actually he can't, you see for Mjolnir, Thor replicates this by using the band at the bottom, but looking at Stormbreaker

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Oops no band. Sure you have Mjolnir feats, but that doesn't mean you legitimately have Mjolnir and can do the impossible with Stormbreaker.

Thor can also use his flight for a Lightning+Stormbreaker blitz combo

Which literally failed to blitz Thanos...

Thor can summon these lightning strikes with ease

Earlier, you admitted that Thor's lightning isn't all the same. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason Thor puts more effort and only ever has one really powerful blast compared to these weaker blasts even tho it would be helpful to do them like the weaker blasts is because he has to?

Yep, that was literally everything remotely new

Conclusion

Lets look at these scenarios. Thor throws Stormbreaker at Thanos, Hela overwhelms him with necroblades, which takes him out for at least 15 seconds which she and Thanos use to kill Thor. Or maybe Thor tries to go H2H and gets absolutely bullied by two people who are at absolute worst comparably speedy and skilled, yet have superior physicals and in Hela's case has weapons. Maybe he tries to blitz and the flat head of Stormbreaker fails to hurt Thanos so Thanos just beats the shit out of Thor in H2H, it's quite simple really. To quote Fury(sorta)

Thor learned that he is all alone, and hopelessly, hilariously outgunned.

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#248 Posted by Kevd4wg (12798 posts) - - Show Bio
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#249 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: Gonna give it a read now, and for everyone else. Kev and I mean no offense to each other in these posts, just having fun

X

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#250 Posted by Kevd4wg (12798 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Yeah, if you feel like the salt is too much just lmk and I'll tone it down. I made it while a bit tired/cranky so I may have gone over the top