CaV: MCU Thor (xZone) Vs MCU Thanos and Hela (Kevd4wg)

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#151 Posted by FromBeyond (1047 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: @lan_fan: Yeah I'm only teasing Xzone, his CaV's are actually some of my favourites by far

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#152 Posted by Amcu (17250 posts) - - Show Bio
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#153 Posted by Lan_Fan (17083 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: I just realized.... YOU CHANGED YOUR AVATAR! I thought the other one was your only soulmate.

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#154 Posted by Amcu (17250 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

@amcu: I just realized.... YOU CHANGED YOUR AVATAR! I thought the other one was your only soulmate.

I still like it better and will probably go back but I just felt like a change.

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#155 Posted by Lan_Fan (17083 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: I personally like this one better, hehehe...

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#156 Posted by Kevd4wg (12878 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Thanks that means a lot coming from you

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#157 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29701 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: This one's better.

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#158 Posted by Amcu (17250 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

@amcu: I personally like this one better, hehehe...

@amcu: This one's better.

Nah.

@kevd4wg said:

@amcu: Thanks that means a lot coming from you

You deserve it man. Really interested in this CAV.

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#159 Posted by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: Gonna be busy all day today, so the editing on my post and my new post probably won’t happen for a few days

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#160 Posted by Kevd4wg (12878 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: That's cool with me, take your time

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#161 Edited by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: Yeah. Probably the only thing I’ll change is my game plans, so the editing won’t be as extensive as I was planning on before. I may be able to get that done soon

X

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#162 Posted by Kevd4wg (12878 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Sounds good, looking forward to it

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#163 Posted by Nucleon (3667 posts) - - Show Bio
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#164 Posted by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio
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#165 Posted by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio
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#166 Posted by Kevd4wg (12878 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Did you mean to get rid of your durability section? Just wondering if it was accidentally deleted or intentional

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#167 Posted by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: Intentional. If you want, I can PM you what I changed

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#168 Posted by Kevd4wg (12878 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Nah it's good, just making sure, I think I got everything

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#169 Posted by MarlboroMan (2923 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#170 Posted by Kevd4wg (12878 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: I finished, but then CV ate my edits, so... I'll have it up later today I guess

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#171 Posted by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: Alrighty, it’s no issue. Can’t wait to have this out of the way to finish the CAV normally haha

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#172 Posted by FromBeyond (1047 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone im liking the edited post, good job pal

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#173 Posted by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio

@frombeyond: It’s simply edited for an IC fight. Happy you like it

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#174 Posted by Kevd4wg (12878 posts) - - Show Bio

Hela: Goddess of Death and Thanos: The Mad Titan

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Hela

Bio

Uh, Odin had a girl, she's evil, cut out Thor's eye, ended with the destruction of Asgard

Powers

  • Superhuman physicals
  • Necroblades
  • Superhuman healing

Fights with Thor

Now, Hela has already had multiple fights with Thor and you say that after the lightning amp Thor was winning, but I have to strongly disagree with that. For instance you mention about their fight in the throne room

Thor is the clear superior to Hela in Skill and Combat Speed. It's not even remotely close, and this was when Thor lacked his Lightning amp and Stormbreaker

Yet other then this one instance in the fight, Hela is completely controlling the fight. Take for instance how immediately after this gif(where she was no-selling Thor's punches), Hela acts quicker then him and guts him before Thor can land a punch, which would suggest superior combat speed.

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Additionally, earlier in the fight, Hela was absolutely dominating Thor. In fact, Thor only landed one hit in the entire exchange while he pressing on the offensive, a throw from Gungir which Hela healed off and shrugged off instantly with no difficulty, meanwhile she easily forces Thor into an awful position as she is able to overpower him completely with just one arm.

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Hela clearly comes off as completely superior in this instance. Not only does Hela block every traditional hit that Thor makes, but even when he mixes it up with a throw(which she can see coming this time), Hela heals it off instantly. Compare that to how Thor was on the ground after just one slash to the chest. Furthermore, Hela displayed great agility and was seemingly faster then Thor. As for this being before the lightning amp, there's really no reason to think that the lightning amp or Stormbreaker amped Thor's physicals in anyway, which is what's important in terms of the throne room fight.

Another instance of Hela absolutely stomping Thor I'd like to bring up is at the start of the movie in the bifrost, where Thor is at the same level he is above, yet Hela stomps him even harder.

Sorry about the bad quality
Sorry about the bad quality

Thor tags her once at the start when she's flying up to him, but after that, Thor can't tag her normally, but Hela easily gets him in a chokehold Thor can't break free from. Then Hela pulls a sword and if not for Thor's last minute kick that BFRs him(showing he lost), he would've been decapitated right then and there.

You can see the obvious difference once Thor has his lightning. Frankly, the fight ends right there because Thor won't be using an average Asgardian sword, but Stormbreaker, and Hela has never survived an Axe to the face or being cut in half

All Thor did was ragdoll her with lightning, he couldn't even tag her with the sword, Hela clearly moved out of the way to dodge it in the same gif. I mean right before this, Hela proved she could easily dodge Thor's sword, proving once again that at the very least she's as fast and as skilled as Thor(I'd say more to both).

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Without using the ragdolling part of the lightning, Thor never would've landed a clean hit and even with it, he couldn't hit Hela with the sword. Now a sword is a lot more maneuverable and easy to weild/harder to block then a giant ass axe so Stormbreaker will be even easier for Hela to dodge. I doubt Thor can land more then glancing blows with Stormbreaker, which we know Hela can heal off, even just based off healing off the Gungir throw above

Thor can also out-skill Asgardian soliders with ease without killing them

Both of my characters scale to Thor's skill in a way(I'll get to Thanos in a second), so posting Thor's own skill feats isn't particularly important, but if fodderizing Asgardian soldiers is a truly impressive feat of skill then

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During her fight against Asgardian soldiers, Hela killed way more, even just in H2H, like waaaaaaay more. Hela also showed far more speed and agility during her fight, if not skill as well. She also demonstrated her ability to shoot out tons of Necroblades at once(I'll get to why that's important), in a very short amount of time.

Thor is clearly faster and more skilled than either Hela or Thanos. This will aid Thor in CQC and will end with Stormbreaker in the chest's of Hela and Thanos

I have to strongly disagree, if Thor can't land an easy to maneuver sword in Hela's chest while taking her by surprise with lightning, how will he do it with a giant axe.

Thor while blitzing Hela reacts to and shatters her blades (Notice the lightning latches off Thor's weapon)

That's not a blitz in the slightest, it's just Thor momentarily pressing the advantage. A blitz is dominating someone in speed like Wonder Woman did to this soldier

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Necroblades

This section is really only important in relation to Hela's Blades. Thor has already blocked/dodged Hela's blades with ease, so this really isn't a problem for him

That's where you're wrong. You see, Hela found a way around Thor's ability to block the Necroblades. Instead of just shooting one, Hela would shoot the Necroblades in quick succession and Thor had no way to block them. Once Hela figured this out, she never stopped using it. Take for instance right after she got ragdolled by Thor, she got back up and shot two in quick succession, but Thor could only block the first

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She does this again(in your first reaction gif) and it manages to solidly tag Thor in the chest

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Repeatedly getting tagged by Necroblades will mess up Thor pretty badly. Especially for one important reason. Notice that when Thor gets hit by the necroblades, his lightning cloak dissipates(which should go for all real damage, like how he didn't have it when injured on the Asgardian ship at the start of IW), so once Hela tags Thor with a necroblade, it leaves him open to get absolutely beat the shit out of by Thanos in H2H.

The Take Away From This:

Thor can clearly react to and destroy or dodge Hela's Blades

I'd have to disagree with that pretty strongly, overhwelming Thor with too many blades is a pretty safe strategy for Hela, it's worked before and there's no reason for it to fail now. Like I mentioned earlier, during Hela vs Asgard's army she was shooting out like 4-5 necroswords in brief succession, which will really mess Thor up.

Thanos

Bio

Barney got old and went evil

Powers and Abilities

He's the Hulk, but better.

H2H

Thanos's call to fame is obviously smashing the hell out of Hulk in H2H.

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In this fight, Thanos is able to shrug off 6 solid punches from Hulk, a bullrush, and him slamming him into a wall, while barely even being phased, yet he manages to overpower Hulk in brute strength and lay an absolute beatdown on him, koing him easily in a short amount of time. Now if we compare this to Thor's fight with Hulk in Ragnarok we see a clear difference. Thor is only able to get the upper hand on Hulk by utilizing his lightning, but without it, he's forced to evade Hulk, getting in punches where he can and occasionally the heavy hit like with the war hammer. However, when Hulk finally gets his hands on Thor, he dominates him physically

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Up until he gets the lightning amp for the battle, he can't get out of Hulk's grip, quite simply Hulk was going to win the fight due to being stronger and overall better physically. The only reason Thor lasted as long as he did was because he could take some hits, and was faster/more skilled then Hulk. However Thanos proved himself to not only be drastically physically superior to Hulk, but also faster and more skilled to the same degree that Thor was to Hulk. Essentially any advantage Thor had over Hulk, Thanos also had, and more. This means that in CQC, Thanos can absolutely physically dominate Thor. Especially since we've already seen that Hela's necroblades(and therefore likely just injury in general) can briefly shut off Thor's lightning cloak, so once Thanos starts pounding on Thor like he did Iron Man or Hulk, he doesn't really have a way out.

Additionally, if that speed comparison isn't good enough for you, later in the movie, Thanos and Thor get to compare speed again

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Notice how despite the fact that Thor starts winding up for his throw before Thanos even gets off the ground, Thanos gets up from being hit with lightning and gets off his blast a good bit before Thor could throw Stormbreaker.

General Counters

Flight

Flight is extremely important here because Thor is the only one who possesses this ability

While he is the only one who posses that ability, he's never abused it in the past. Not against Kurse, not against Malekith, not against Surtur at the start of Ragnarok, not even against Loki. Every time he fights a brute whose on the ground, he ends up doing just that, fighting them on the ground. The Destroyer could be a possible exception, but that instance has been proven to not be the norm time and time again.

Thor can easily fly at Mach One (Notice the Mach Cone Around Mjolnir)

Sure, but can he use this speed of flight in combat? Can he accelerate to it quickly enough to matter in combat?

Thor uses his speed while bullrushing as well. Notice how fast he bullrushes through this thresher (Left Side)

It's a bit vague to tell what happened, but I don't think that's anywhere close to Mach 1 honestly. Also destroying a giant machine, is very different then fighting another powerful character 1v1.

Thor uses his flight advantage to bullrush quite often, as seen here

He's just landing and using lightning, it's a superhero landing, not a bullrush.

Thor blitzes Malekith so fast he pulls cars around them in to a portal. To be fair, the weight of these cars is a little hard to be sure of due to the convergence, but it still shows Thor can blitz quickly and that he uses this type of attack In-Character

How fast is this bullrush, 1/10 mach speed, 1/3, 1/2? 5 times mach speed? This is a pretty vaguely "fast" feat, but if say Thor tries to pull this attack on Thanos, Hela can just knock him out of the air with a necroblade and since Thor brought himself closer to Thanos, Thanos can just smack him.

Why is Levitation important? Because Thor can call down lightning strikes while Levitating, and because those strikes kept Hela down for around 30 seconds on-screen which is more than enough time for Thor to kill Hela with Stormbreaker

You're acting like this is something Thor would do when it really isn't. Thor could've just run away or leaped around Hela performing these lightning bolts all the time, but instead he waited until after a long fight(a luxury he won't have here). Thor didn't pull this off in the middle of a fight either, but rather had to wait until Hela was distracted by Surtur and then taken off guard by Valkeryie. Thor won't be given an opportunity like that when he's the one outnumbered, especially by someone who can output such good pressure like Hela.

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Plus you'll notice that when he does that to Hela, Thor is pretty stationary, it's not exactly the same as all the lightning bolts he was flinging around while jumping around the bridge, which would leave him open to Thanos slapping him around.

Furthermore, levitating up in the air just makes Thor a big obvious floating target for Hela's bigger blades that she used on Surtur.

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The Scenario ends up very much like this:

The problem is that Thanos is not an idiot, he knows what Stormbreaker will do to him now and this time instead of trying to block it, he can just dodge it. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure Thor will be extremely cautious throwing around another hammer when Hela is around.

Lightning/Weather Manipulation

Thor hits Hela with lightning from the sky. If you count the seconds On-Screen in the battle you will see that Hela is off screen for over a minute. My Opponent may be quick to say that Valkyrie stabbed her, but realistically, stabs have never had much effect on Hela

This blast simply BFRed Hela. If you look at the Ragnarok script, it's shown that the blast hit her into a fissure that was created by Surtur where she was fine, but BFRed. Furthermore the script shows this only happened due to Thor channeling his lightning through Dragonfang directly into Hela's body. So not only is this not really applicable to normal combat, but Hela wasn't Koed.

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Furthermore, the script points out that Thor and Valkyrie are "badly injured" after their fight with Hela so no Thor was not winning.

Here Thor hits Hela with a massive lightning strike. The Official Ragnarok Script says that she was incapacitated, and this is further proven by the fact that Hela was not seen on screen for over Two Minutes after Thor's lightning strike

The official Ragnarok script says she "appears Koed" which likely means the audience was supposed to think she was Koed, but wasn't. This is further supported when Thor says she "shrugged off the biggest lightning bolt in the history of lightning." Additionally, I'm not sure if this bolt is just something Thor can bust out. He only managed to do something like this when he immediately got access to his powers, almost like a surge, and then never used it against Hela again.

Keep in mind that these lightning strikes can be called down casually without even a motion from Thor being required

These bolts aren't necessarily the same bolts that Thor used going all out against Hela. It's pretty obvious his really powerful bolts require a bit more effort then those that couldn't even damage the bridge.

Weather manipulation

Thor has used Weather Manipulation once in combat in all his appearances. Since that point in time, Thor has fought Loki, Chitauri, Dark Elves, Kurse, Malekith, Ultron, Surtur, Hela twice, outriders, and Thanos yet hasn't used weather manipulation like a tornado a single time. All of those characters, especially Kurse, Surtur, and Loki, would've been pretty susceptible to a Tornado, yet Thor never used it. It's pretty obvious at this point that it's not very in character for him.

Thor's Cloak/AOE Lightning Destroys This Incredibly Durable Outrider Ship. We know this because we see the Cloak activated as Thor enters the Ship

That doesn't prove anything... Thor could've accomplished this by bullrushing through the ship, or throwing stormbreaker, or any number of things. Hell it could've just been lightning strikes. There's really no reason to think that it's lightning cloak other than to help your argument.

How Durable? This Durable. These Ships Tanked Re-Entry, Then Hitting The Ground at Insane Speeds, and Thor Ripped Through It Like Cotton Candy

Lightning is already hotter then re-entry so I don't see the problem considering that both Thanos and Hela have shrugged off direct lightning blasts from Thor. Quite simply, I don't see why lightning cloak would work on them why direct hits didn't.

To the bottom left you can see Thor uses his Cloak to destroy one of the massive threshers in Wakanda

Looks like he also bullrushed through it, which would destroy it as well.

This means anyone trying to attack Thor must first get through Thor's Re-Entry level Cloak

I'm pretty sure Thor's direct lightning bolts >> his cloak and both Hela and Thanos shrugged those off, doesn't seem like a problem. Plus as I mentioned earlier, Necroblades and pain in general seem to shut off Thor's cloak which allows the duo to get close.

This Lightning Cloak Also Amps Thor's Casual Hits Enough To Nearly One-Shot The Hulk

Hulk got back up pretty easily, it wasn't "nearly a one-shot" and Hela was literally no-selling Thor's non amped lightning punches which would make her more durable then Hulk and Thanos was also obviously more durable then Hulk.

Here you can see the entire fight between Hela and Thor. Notice that Thor was down from small stabs before his lightning abilities kicked in, but afterwards he was capable of getting up after deep stabs in just seconds. This is because Thor's cloak is capable of healing him from wounds, such as Hela's Stabs, and most other injuries he acquires

Thor got hit with much deeper wounds while he was fighting Hela up in the castle. After that, Hela was multi tasking with multiple things at once(Valkyrie, The Ship, Thor) and so never quite landed the same level of wounds she did in the 1v1. Thor only "healed" off superficial wounds, not like the ones she took earlier.

Thor's healing factor is also evident in IW when he is nearly dead after Thanos attack

So it took him hours to go from nearly dead, but intact to Koed, but relatively ok? I'm not sure why that's supposed to be impressive or relevant to the fight. The battle likely won't last 10 minutes, much less hours.

Thor can heal from wounds if needed, and as is shown in the fight with Hela. Thor can heal from Stabs to the chest in seconds, so keeping Thor down is going to be nearly impossible

Thor most certainly could not heal from wounds in seconds. Thor shrugged off a few light wounds and got a boost from when he initially tapped into the cloak, much like he did when he was immediately exposed to Stormbreaker, but there was no evidence that he continuously was healing. It was just pain tolerance.

Stormbreaker

Firstly, there's really no reason Hela can't do what she did to Mjolnir to Stormbreaker(except crushing it). Thor hasn't shown any new abilities on Stormbreaker except lightning and that wouldn't change the outcome. To add insult to injury there isn't even a worthiness enchantment. Quite simply, Hela can just grab Stormbreaker.

Thor has already shown the ability to casually tag Hela, so there is no reason he can't do the same but this time with Stormbreaker

This was done only using a feint hit morphed into a throw. That's not exactly something you can do with a giant axe as easily as you can with a staff. When not using that faint(in a spot that wouldn't kill Hela anyway), Thor couldn't land a clean hit on Hela with either Gungir or the sword, two more maneuverable and faster weapons then Stormbreaker.

Thor hits Hela with a regular Asgardian sword, but this doesn't have any permanent affect because this is a fairly weak weapon. With Stormbreaker, Hela would be dead

Thor literally only tagged Hela with lightning, the sword itself never touched Hela.

Thor can clearly fight just as cleanly and quickly with Stormbreaker as with an Asgardian sword. Thanos is going to be one-shot just about as easily as these Outriders

Outriders in no way compare to Hela or Thanos. Both Hela and Thanos outdo Outriders in everyway by a huge margin. Both Thanos and Hela could replicate this feat of Thor's easily, it's simply not impressive. Furthermore, if Thor starts doing this, Hela can just send a few necroblades his way.

Thanos can also be one-shot as seen on-screen, and this time Thanos will have no defense like the IG

Except moving a foot to the left or right

Thor is also able to telekinetically control Stormbreaker, so if Hela or Thanos dodge, it isn't a problem, Stormbreaker will just follow them

But does it carry the same potency as the strong overhand throw? Additionally, Hela caught Mjolnir and he could control that telepathically as well.

Scenario 1

Thor will likely aim for Thanos first as he knows he can kill him in one attack from Stormbreaker

Thanos knows that as well, which is why this time, since he's not a moron, he'll just dodge it.

Since the Team and Thor start on opposite ends of the Bifrost bridge, Thor will have plenty of time to blitz Thanos with lightning

This is just Thor using lightning on a distracted Thanos who doesn't know he's there. Firstly Thanos will be paying attention, so this won't happen the same way and secondly how the hell is this a blitz in any way?

then Thor uses Stormbreaker to kill Thanos before Hela does anything

How will Thor do this before Hela can just throw some blades in quick succession despite the fact that Hela was shown to be at least as fast as Thor all the time in Ragnarok, and I would say a lot faster and more skilled.

Since Thor can telekinetically control Stormbreaker, Thanos won't be able to dodge it, and that's besides the fact that Thanos didn't dodge Stormbreaker On-Screen, so to suggest he would is simply denying on-screen evidence

How is it denying evidence? On-screen he tried to block it with the IG, as in doing something. Here he doesn't have anything to block it with so he would just dodge it. It's like saying that Thor never used CQC against Thanos so he won't and otherwise is denying on-screen evidence.

Once Thanos is out of the way, this battle becomes a 1v1. Thor has already tagged Hela with a vastly inferior weapon multiple times, so to suggest he can't with Stormbreaker would be inaccurate

It might be inferior in damage output, but in terms of maneuverability, speed, and ability to feint, Gungir is a much better weapon and Stormbreaker won't kill Hela if it lands the same way. Plus the fact Thor never tagged Hela with a weapon again, despite having an even better h2h weapon, a sword, why would he do it with Stormbreaker based on one feint that wouldn't work with Stormbreaker?

If all else fails, Thor In Character will fly up and blitz Thanos or Hela with lightning

I'm not sure you know what blitz means

With this strategy, the overall counter is pretty easy, Thor goes up in the air and Hela smacks him out of the air with some big necroblades. Pretty simple.

Scenario 2

Thor can also blitz the opponents by himself without throwing Stormbreaker

There's that really questionable blitz again

Thor blitzing with Stormbreaker in hand would definitely be the end of either Thanos or Hela. We know Thor can fly at minimum Mach One Speeds, so it's doubtful either Hela or Thanos would react, especially if Thor spams lightning first

But can he do the same speed during a bullrush. The Dragon was a straight line max speed flying, a bullrush is going toward a precise point that could move like with Malekith. Also, both Hela and Thanos have shrugged off lightning, Thor isn't bullrushing them with that small a time frame.

After Thor blitzes either Hela or Thanos, he then continues to 1v1 the survivor, who will be outskilled and outmatched

Not sure how Hela would be outskilled since she outskilled him all of Ragnarok?

Scenario 3

Thor has no problem fighting multiple people at once

These are slow, weak, unskilled Outriders coming at him one at a time. Hela and Thanos are both at worst comparably skilled and speedy to Thor. Thanos is more physically imposing as is Hela and Hela also has necroblades and a healing factor so I'm really not seeing the comparison

Thor was already out-speeding and skilling Hela, so adding Thanos doesn't add much, especially when Stormbreaker one-shots him

No he wasn't. I already posted the gif before, but I'll do it again. Right before this, Hela was literally dancing around Thor, where she was actually outskilling and outspeeding Thor

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Bottom line is, Thanos is too slow and not skilled enough to truly compete against someone who can one-shot him

Thanos demonstrated better skill against Hulk then Thor did against Hulk in his fight and Thor has never abused his speed, except arguably once against an Ultron drone in AoU. Furthermore in a direct comparison from Infinity War, Thanos moved about as fast if not faster then Thor.

Thor's cloak will aid in Thor fighting multiple opponents

Not against two opponents who can easily shrug it off

Thor's casual lightning is able to put Hela off screen for over a minute

Firstly this was not casual and secondly that was only due to BFR not actual damage

Conclusion Counters

Thor simply is far faster than his opponents.

No, just no. If anything, Hela outpaced Thor in Ragnarok.

Thor can react to Hela's blades easily, and he already blitzed her on-screen.

No, to both, just no. He didn't blitz Hela at all, he used lightning to ragdoll her. If that's a blitz then Thanos blitzed Hulk to kingdom come.

The team really has no speed feats to speak of whatsoever, nor skill, so even if Thor was tagged, he could out-skill Hela and Thanos in CQC

Except matching and outspeeding Thor themselves? Both of these characters have demonstrated skill in combat so I don't know what you mean they have "no skill feats"

Lightning Strikes can incapacitate Hela and Weather Manipulation can change the terrain to aid Thor

Other then Thor's initial surge attack, lightning never incapacitated Hela, only the BFR. So I don't see any reason why it would work here.

Even if all my plans somehow failed, Thor can still fly in the air and spam lightning strikes on Hela or Thanos

Which would be extremely out of character

Simply put, Thor can one-shot either of his opponents with ease, and it isn't really close. Thor has already one-shot Thanos, and Hela has weak piercing durability to Asgardian weapons, such as Stormbreaker

However, both of these characters can stop being one-shot by dodging. And Hela can one-shot Thor as well with a well used Necroblade. Also Thanos can just perform a beatdown on Thor.

Initial Considerations

Hela and Thanos hold tons of advantages over Thor. Both have comparable speed at the worst, for Hela I'd argue easily superior and with having 2 characters instead of one, Thor will be the one at a disadvantage. Furthermore, Hela and Thanos have a pretty simple way to put Thor down. Even if Thor is in the sky, just a few necroblades will quickly overwhelm him and knock him from the sky, leaving him defenseless without his cloak. Thanos can take that opportunity to beat the hell out of Thor until he's taken down.

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#175 Edited by Kevd4wg (12878 posts) - - Show Bio
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#176 Edited by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

Kev really deserving praise with that counter tbh, even with both posts edited it's devastating. Amazing work bro.

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#177 Posted by FromBeyond (1047 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: dayum son you are taking no prisoners here

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#178 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77 said:

Kev really deserving praise with that counter tbh, even with both posts edited it's devastating. Amazing work bro.

This.

Also tag after each post please if there are any left to go and T4V as well.

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#179 Posted by Kevd4wg (12878 posts) - - Show Bio
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#180 Posted by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio
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#181 Posted by TonyMartial (10172 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77 said:

Kev really deserving praise with that counter tbh, even with both posts edited it's devastating. Amazing work bro.

This.

Also tag after each post please if there are any left to go and T4V as well.

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#182 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#186 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29701 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: You'll be using the "tags ain't working" things as an excuse fo bump, aren't you

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#189 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29701 posts) - - Show Bio

Dammit.

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#193 Posted by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio

"You know Father once told me that a wise King never seeks out war, but must always be ready for one"

Thor Odinson, Protector Of The Nine Realms, King Of Asgard

Throughout this Post I will prove that Thor is:

1) Faster/More Skilled than Hela or Thanos

2) Capable of using his Flight Advantage in combat

3) Able to KO Hela and Thanos with Powerful Lightning Strikes

4) Going to One-Shot Thanos or Hela with Stormbreaker

Thor vs Hela and Thanos Counters:

Thor vs Hela:

Now, Hela has already had multiple fights with Thor and you say that after the lightning amp Thor was winning, but I have to strongly disagree with that. For instance you mention about their fight in the throne room

Thor was clearly outpacing Hela until she overpowered him with her hax

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Wasn't really close after Thor had his own hax to match Hela's

Yet other then this one instance in the fight, Hela is completely controlling the fight. Take for instance how immediately after this gif(where she was no-selling Thor's punches), Hela acts quicker then him and guts him before Thor can land a punch, which would suggest superior combat speed.

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Actually, you're confusing Hela using her vastly superior power with Hela using speed or skill. Thor was able to outmaneuver Hela for a time, but her blades give her extended reach which is the only reason she slashed Thor in the gut. Look closely, and you will see Thor was about to hit Hela in the face again before he was slashed. You will also see that Hela's arm was not long enough to hit Thor, so she extended her reach with blades. This is not a skill or speed showing, but a showing of hax. Thor was clearly faster, but Hela overcame his speed with hax. Once Thor had his own hax he was clearly controlling the fight

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Thor shatters Hela's blades, then rag dolls her. To me, it looks like the sword hit Hela, but even if it didn't, Stormbreaker has further reach and would have hit Hela in this situation

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Thor destroys a blade, then grabs Hela and throws her before she can do anything. This Skill/Speed feat allows Thor plenty of time to hit Hela with Stormbreaker

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Thor tags Hela with Swords twice. These Swords would be Stormbreaker in the battle we are currently discussing

Clearly, Thor was controlling the fight post amp

I ask my opponent to show ONE instance after Thor had his lightning amp where Hela was controlling the fight. Sure, she hit Thor with blades, once while he wasn't looking, and a second time where Thor didn't have a decent weapon to shield with, but he healed and was fighting again less than 15 seconds afterwards (Probably sooner because the scene cut back to Hela and Thor in combat, so 5-10 seconds is probably more accurate)

As soon as Thor had hax of his own he wasn't put down close range once, and was only put down for a few seconds long range because he didn't have Stormbreaker to block with, something he has now

Additionally, earlier in the fight, Hela was absolutely dominating Thor. In fact, Thor only landed one hit in the entire exchange while he pressing on the offensive, a throw from Gungir which Hela healed off and shrugged off instantly with no difficulty, meanwhile she easily forces Thor into an awful position as she is able to overpower him completely with just one arm.

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1) You literally just showed a perfect example of Hela overpowering Thor. Hela is far stronger than Thor, especially when he hadn't even unlocked his full abilities yet. This was not a demonstration of skill by Hela, but a demonstration of overpowering an opponent

2) You act like being stabbed by Gungnir is not a big deal, but it is. One cut from Stormbreaker will cut Hela clean in half, and the fact that Thor could hit Hela in the chest with Gungnir proves he can do the same with Stormbreaker, a weapon he is far more familiar with

3) Hela blocked Gungnir multiple times there, if she were to try the same thing against Stormbreaker she would lose her hand, then be cut in half

Hela clearly comes off as completely superior in this instance. Not only does Hela block every traditional hit that Thor makes, but even when he mixes it up with a throw(which she can see coming this time), Hela heals it off instantly. Compare that to how Thor was on the ground after just one slash to the chest. Furthermore, Hela displayed great agility and was seemingly faster then Thor.

Once again, this is a clear showing of Hela's stat advantage over Thor at the time. She easily blocked Gungnir, then overpowered Thor with one arm. This feat also clearly shows that Hela will block In Character. Do you really think Hela will survive attempting to block Stormbreaker?

As for this being before the lightning amp, there's really no reason to think that the lightning amp or Stormbreaker amped Thor's physicals in anyway, which is what's important in terms of the throne room fight.

I'm discussing Thor's Speed and Skill. I thought you were trying to counter that, but all I'm seeing is a massive stat advantage. It is simply incorrect to say Thor, who lacked his Lightning amp and Stormbreaker, being overpowered by Hela is proof that Hela is more skilled

As to amping his physicals... Thor had his two best strength feats in IW, but it matters little to the battle at hand and to the fact that Thor is faster and more skilled

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Thor clearly was able to tag Hela, anything after that point is moot because she won't survive the initial hit from Stormbreaker

Another instance of Hela absolutely stomping Thor I'd like to bring up is at the start of the movie in the bifrost, where Thor is at the same level he is above, yet Hela stomps him even harder.

Sorry about the bad quality
Sorry about the bad quality

Again, you're clearly using a stat advantage to counter my Skill and Speed claims. All Hela does here is briefly trade blows with Thor, then hold him by the neck. He is clearly unable to loosen her grip via strength. This in NO way shows Hela is more skilled than Thor, but that she was far stronger

Thor tags her once at the start when she's flying up to him, but after that, Thor can't tag her normally, but Hela easily gets him in a chokehold Thor can't break free from. Then Hela pulls a sword and if not for Thor's last minute kick that BFRs him(showing he lost), he would've been decapitated right then and there.

This is once again a clear example of Hela straight up overpowering Thor via Strength and hax. Any unbiased person can see that Thor is not being outskilled, but outmuscled

All Thor did was ragdoll her with lightning, he couldn't even tag her with the sword, Hela clearly moved out of the way to dodge it in the same gif. I mean right before this, Hela proved she could easily dodge Thor's sword, proving once again that at the very least she's as fast and as skilled as Thor(I'd say more to both).

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Yes, he rag dolled her with Lightning, but it looks like the sword hits her in the chest as well. Had this been with Stormbreaker, a weapon with further reach, it would have pierced Hela through the chest without question

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Even in the gif you yourself provided Hela is on the defensive side of the fight because of how much faster and skilled Thor is. Anyone without bias can see Thor is controlling the fight with speed. Had Thor been wielding Stormbreaker, a weapon with further reach, he would have decapitated Hela then and there

Both of my characters scale to Thor's skill in a way(I'll get to Thanos in a second), so posting Thor's own skill feats isn't particularly important, but if fodderizing Asgardian soldiers is a truly impressive feat of skill then

Hela, slightly. Thanos? No.. Goodness No...

During her fight against Asgardian soldiers, Hela killed way more, even just in H2H, like waaaaaaay more. Hela also showed far more speed and agility during her fight, if not skill as well. She also demonstrated her ability to shoot out tons of Necroblades at once(I'll get to why that's important), in a very short amount of time.

<Sigh> Don't mean to sound rude here, but you totally missed the point.. Like the point went right over your head... This isn't about Thor beating Three Asgardian soliders, but the fact that he effortlessly out-skilled them, AND that he didn't kill one of them which requires precision as well. Hela utilized her Hax and Strength in that fight, and she killed the Asgardians which is far easier than not killing them. All of that besides, she still ended up relying on her HF because she was stabbed. Thor on the other hand, out-skilled the Asgardians he was fighting without using his hax, and without killing them. I only mention the not killing because it shows that he isn't using his stats to beat them, but his skill, otherwise he could have sent them flying with casual hits. Hela killing those Asgardians can be replicated by just about anyone with similar abilities

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This is out-skilling

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This is Not out-skilling. This is called abusing a hax advantage

I have to strongly disagree, if Thor can't land an easy to maneuver sword in Hela's chest while taking her by surprise with lightning, how will he do it with a giant axe.

There are a few reasons why you're wrong:

1) Thor can just as easily use Stormbreaker as he did a sword as I've already shown

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Here

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and Stormbreaker has further reach than a sword, and if you look at the gif provided, the sword either hits Hela in the chest, or just misses her. That extra half a foot of length on Stormbreaker is more than enough to replicate that Scenario but hit Hela instead of barely missing, plus, Thor has already tagged Hela multiple times

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Hits her in the face twice

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Straight up grabs Hela before she can react and throws her. This is more than fast enough to hit Hela with Stormbreaker

2) Thor can throw Stormbreaker at close range to hit Hela

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just like he did with Gungnir

That's not a blitz in the slightest, it's just Thor momentarily pressing the advantage. A blitz is dominating someone in speed like Wonder Woman did to this soldier

It's more than enough of a blitz to hit Hela with Stormbreaker, and that's what matters. The evidence is overwhelming that Thor will hit Hela before she can tag him

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Thor can grab Hela before she reacts, so Thor has plenty of time to hit Hela with Stormbreaker

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Thor tagged Hela twice with Swords. All Hela could do was try and dodge

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Thor clearly outpaced Hela and would have hit her had he been using Stormbreaker

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Thor can just casually throw Stormbreaker in Hela's chest quickly, and if she tries to block Stormbreaker like she did Gungnir, she's gonna get her arm cut off

Necroblades:

That's where you're wrong. You see, Hela found a way around Thor's ability to block the Necroblades. Instead of just shooting one, Hela would shoot the Necroblades in quick succession and Thor had no way to block them. Once Hela figured this out, she never stopped using it. Take for instance right after she got ragdolled by Thor, she got back up and shot two in quick succession, but Thor could only block the first

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On-Screen Thor gets back up in less than 15 seconds after these, further reinforcing the fact that Thor's HF can cover for Thor here

She does this again(in your first reaction gif) and it manages to solidly tag Thor in the chest

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Not really fair to use this when Thor was not even looking

Repeatedly getting tagged by Necroblades will mess up Thor pretty badly. Especially for one important reason. Notice that when Thor gets hit by the necroblades, his lightning cloak dissipates(which should go for all real damage, like how he didn't have it when injured on the Asgardian ship at the start of IW), so once Hela tags Thor with a necroblade, it leaves him open to get absolutely beat the shit out of by Thanos in H2H.

Very nice catch, your reputation is well earned. Unfortunately, there is a small problem with that. As you see in those images, it wasn't blocking the blades that was the problem, Thor was able to block with his arm, it was that Thor couldn't fully destroy the multiple blades

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This is clearly what Thor does against projectiles; he blocks them with his weapon. Stormbreaker will have no problem blocking/destroying these blades, so your point is pretty weak

So, no, Thanos is doing nothing to Thor, especially because more than likely he's getting one-shot right off the bat

I'd have to disagree with that pretty strongly, overhwelming Thor with too many blades is a pretty safe strategy for Hela, it's worked before and there's no reason for it to fail now. Like I mentioned earlier, during Hela vs Asgard's army she was shooting out like 4-5 necroswords in brief succession, which will really mess Thor up.

Not when Thor can block them with Stormbreaker

The Take Away From This:

This section is very clear. Thor is faster and more skilled than Hela, so my Opponent has retreated to using Power and Strength feats as Skill and Speed showings, not to mention that most of the feats Kev is using are against a non amped Thor

In a one vs one fight, Thor will win handily due to his Speed and Skill advantages, his ability to react to, dodge, and block Hela's blades, and because Thor has a one-shot weapon

Thor vs Thanos:

Thanos's call to fame is obviously smashing the hell out of Hulk in H2H.

Yeah... Beating the Hulk isn't very impressive... Thor was able to similarly embarrass the Hulk while Thor was holding back

In this fight, Thanos is able to shrug off 6 solid punches from Hulk, a bullrush, and him slamming him into a wall, while barely even being phased, yet he manages to overpower Hulk in brute strength and lay an absolute beatdown on him, koing him easily in a short amount of time. Now if we compare this to Thor's fight with Hulk in Ragnarok we see a clear difference. Thor is only able to get the upper hand on Hulk by utilizing his lightning, but without it, he's forced to evade Hulk, getting in punches where he can and occasionally the heavy hit like with the war hammer. However, when Hulk finally gets his hands on Thor, he dominates him physically

And this matters.. Why? You already admitted with Thor's Cloak Thor>Hulk. Now Thor has Stormbreaker that already one-shot Thanos, so I'm not sure how Thanos is even remotely a factor here. That's besides the fact that you just showed why Thanos is hilariously slower than Hulk. It took Thanos ages to react to Hulk, while Thor was the one outmaneuvering Hulk. It's possible Thanos was intentionally Tanking Hulk's punches, but that would only reinforce the idea that Thanos wouldn't try to dodge Stormbreaker, but I'll get to that in a bit

Up until he gets the lightning amp for the battle, he can't get out of Hulk's grip, quite simply Hulk was going to win the fight due to being stronger and overall better physically. The only reason Thor lasted as long as he did was because he could take some hits, and was faster/more skilled then Hulk. However Thanos proved himself to not only be drastically physically superior to Hulk, but also faster and more skilled to the same degree that Thor was to Hulk. Essentially any advantage Thor had over Hulk, Thanos also had, and more. This means that in CQC, Thanos can absolutely physically dominate Thor. Especially since we've already seen that Hela's necroblades(and therefore likely just injury in general) can briefly shut off Thor's lightning cloak, so once Thanos starts pounding on Thor like he did Iron Man or Hulk, he doesn't really have a way out.

I'm not gonna argue Thor can physically beat Thanos because I don't need to, but we really can't be sure Thanos would kill Thor with his lightning amp. We never saw the fight between Thor and Thanos, and both of them were destroying the Hulk, but Thor was holding back while Thanos wasn't

As to the skill/speed bit, you gotta stop making me laugh so hard. Thanos, as you already stated, was vastly physically superior to Hulk while Thor was physically weaker than Hulk for most the fight

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This is out-skilling a vastly superior opponent

All Thanos did was slightly out-skill someone he was already stronger than

Additionally, if that speed comparison isn't good enough for you, later in the movie, Thanos and Thor get to compare speed again

Notice how despite the fact that Thor starts winding up for his throw before Thanos even gets off the ground, Thanos gets up from being hit with lightning and gets off his blast a good bit before Thor could throw Stormbreaker.

This proves literally nothing... The scene is cut kinda weird, so it's hard to tell exactly how it went down. That's besides the fact that Thor is winding up a weapon while Thanos is just firing a beam from the IG

The Take Away From This:

My Opponent has failed to prove Thanos is even a factor in this fight. Thanos has already been one-shot on-screen by Thor, and Thanos is slower and less skilled than Thor. No contest

General Counters:

Flight:

While he is the only one who posses that ability, he's never abused it in the past. Not against Kurse, not against Malekith, not against Surtur at the start of Ragnarok, not even against Loki. Every time he fights a brute whose on the ground, he ends up doing just that, fighting them on the ground. The Destroyer could be a possible exception, but that instance has been proven to not be the norm time and time again.

This is all wrong... And tbh, it makes me wonder if you have seen these movies in a while...

Kurse: Thor wasn't able to use his flight strategically for anything but a bullrush because he had to try to stop Malekith and Kurse from leaving the Dark World. Kurse reacted to the bullrush and knocked Thor away. Thor wasn't able to fly again because when he called Mjolnir back to himself, Kurse knocked it away. This will won't happen with Stormbreaker because it spins when flying back to Thor and it has an edge that would kill anyone on this team trying to redirect the Axe.

Regardless, as to the point of this being IC, Thor started with flight against Kurse

Malekith:

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Thor bullrushes Malekith

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Thor uses his flight to hit Malekith with lightning more easily

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Thor doesn't need to land now though, because he can levitate with Stormbreaker and spam lightning like this

Surter:

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Thor blitzes Surter via flight

Loki:

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Blitzes Loki through the Bifrost

I don't mean to sound rude here, but I don't know why you didn't check this stuff before you claimed Thor doesn't use flight in combat

Sure, but can he use this speed of flight in combat? Can he accelerate to it quickly enough to matter in combat?

Well, the teams start at opposite ends of the bifrost bridge, so Thor has more than enough time to bullrush, but Thor can accelerate to high speeds in a second

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Like here

It's a bit vague to tell what happened, but I don't think that's anywhere close to Mach 1 honestly. Also destroying a giant machine, is very different then fighting another powerful character 1v1.

Characters are fighting to the best of their abilities here, so I don't see why Thor won't be bullrushing at Mach One. Thanos isn't powerful compared to Thor here, and power has nothing to do with it anyways, it has to do with reacting to Thor flying at mach one wielding an Axe that can one-shot Thanos or Hela

He's just landing and using lightning, it's a superhero landing, not a bullrush.

I've given examples of Thor blitzing/bullrushing Kurse, Malekith, Loki, and Surter, all of which you claimed he hadn't used flight against

How fast is this bullrush, 1/10 mach speed, 1/3, 1/2? 5 times mach speed? This is a pretty vaguely "fast" feat, but if say Thor tries to pull this attack on Thanos, Hela can just knock him out of the air with a necroblade and since Thor brought himself closer to Thanos, Thanos can just smack him.

This is to the best of their abilities, and it's kinda hard to tell how fast Thor was moving there, but I think it's safe to say Thor will be flying at mach one

With what reaction feats? Show me Thanos reacting to a person moving at mach one?

You're acting like this is something Thor would do when it really isn't. Thor could've just run away or leaped around Hela performing these lightning bolts all the time, but instead he waited until after a long fight(a luxury he won't have here). Thor didn't pull this off in the middle of a fight either, but rather had to wait until Hela was distracted by Surtur and then taken off guard by Valkeryie. Thor won't be given an opportunity like that when he's the one outnumbered, especially by someone who can output such good pressure like Hela.

This is actually very untrue. Most of the time Thor was killing fodder and protecting the Asgardians, so this long drawn out fight you speak of never really happened. Thor uses Lightning bolts at least four times on-screen, twice on Hela. Quite honestly, at this point I think you're using PIS. If Thor spammed these bolts forever it would get a bit boring. This is all besides the fact that you have literally no evidence Hela needed to be distracted here. Sure, she was, but that doesn't mean she needed to be, especially when Thor has already shown the ability to use these bolts casually

Also, since Thor is the one who will be leading this fight due to his travel speed advantage, he will open with lightning as he already has before

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Plus you'll notice that when he does that to Hela, Thor is pretty stationary, it's not exactly the same as all the lightning bolts he was flinging around while jumping around the bridge, which would leave him open to Thanos slapping him around.

Thanos should be dead long before Thor is engaging Hela, but even if he wasn't, why is it Thor can't hit both targets

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Like this?

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or like this?

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Or this.. It's also worth noting in this gif that Thor is able to simultaneously call down lightning strikes and use an AOE (Look at the corners around Thor) so we know that Thor can call down multiple lightning strikes with just a thought

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Or this.. It's also worth noting that the destruction in this scene is confirmed to be from the shockwave caused by Thor's attack

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Furthermore, levitating up in the air just makes Thor a big obvious floating target for Hela's bigger blades that she used on Surtur.

First, I'm not talking about Thor just sitting in the air forever, but he probably will levitate in the air and use a few lightning strikes like he's done before

Second, Talk about using OOC arguments... Why didn't she use these on Thor earlier? Or on Valkyrie? You say why didn't Thor call down more lightning strikes on Hela even though he used them on her TWICE, but you say Hela will use these massive blades on Thor when she hasn't once. Come now, at least keep it down to a double standard...

The problem is that Thanos is not an idiot, he knows what Stormbreaker will do to him now and this time instead of trying to block it, he can just dodge it. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure Thor will be extremely cautious throwing around another hammer when Hela is around.

Erm

1) You're the one who didn't even want to finish this CAV if we were using OOC arguments, yet here you are suggesting that Thanos will do something he could have done in this film, but didn't. Come on, man... Thanos clearly likes to tank attacks, like Hulk's, Stark's and Thor's

2) That's besides the fact that Thor can telepathically control Stormbreaker, so dodging isn't an option

3) What's Hela gonna do?

The Take Away From This:

Thor can use his flight to blitz at mach speeds as well as rain lightning down from the sky. Thor can also use his flight for enhanced mobility and for using a Lighting+Stormbreaker Combo

Lightning/Weather Manipulation:

This blast simply BFRed Hela. If you look at the Ragnarok script, it's shown that the blast hit her into a fissure that was created by Surtur where she was fine, but BFRed. Furthermore the script shows this only happened due to Thor channeling his lightning through Dragonfang directly into Hela's body. So not only is this not really applicable to normal combat, but Hela wasn't Koed.

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I have many issues with this

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1) It really doesn't look like she fell in to a hole created by Surter... Surter was far from Hela and she fell in to the water, not a hole in the earth, and furthermore, the script doesn't say the hole was caused by Surter from what I see

2) Does that expression on Hela's face scream "fine" to you? She looks like she's in some serious pain...

3) The script is obviously not correct here because it says Thor pulled Valkyrie from Hela's clutches, something obviously not seen on-screen. Scripts are important, but not when they are directly contradicted by On-Screen evidence

4) Even if ALL of what you said was true, why would it matter? The fact remains that Hela was off-screen for over a minute. Do you really think Hela is just chilling under water for a minute? Totally fine, unharmed, just sitting there for a full minute? Come on, Kev, Hela would not just sit there while Surter was destroying her kingdom. Clearly she was incapacitated

5) About Dragonfang, Thor has clearly shown the ability to casually call down lightning. Just because he used his lightning this way this time doesn't mean that it is required, especially when On-Screen evidence shows otherwise

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Like this

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Or here, where Thor calls down strikes around him (look at the corners around Thor after he hits the ground). You're reaching, Kev

Furthermore, the script points out that Thor and Valkyrie are "badly injured" after their fight with Hela so no Thor was not winning.

I don't believe I said Thor was going to win, but he was clearly outpacing Hela

The official Ragnarok script says she "appears Koed" which likely means the audience was supposed to think she was Koed, but wasn't. This is further supported when Thor says she "shrugged off the biggest lightning bolt in the history of lightning."

Well, she was off-screen for Two minutes, so either she was KO'd or badly hurt, either one does the job

Additionally, I'm not sure if this bolt is just something Thor can bust out. He only managed to do something like this when he immediately got access to his powers, almost like a surge, and then never used it against Hela again.

Prove it. That's pure speculation. Plus, he does use something similar again

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Here

These bolts aren't necessarily the same bolts that Thor used going all out against Hela. It's pretty obvious his really powerful bolts require a bit more effort then those that couldn't even damage the bridge.

No, I don't think so, and the burden of proof is on you to prove it requires more effort

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Looks pretty casual to me

Thor has used Weather Manipulation once in combat in all his appearances. Since that point in time, Thor has fought Loki, Chitauri, Dark Elves, Kurse, Malekith, Ultron, Surtur, Hela twice, outriders, and Thanos yet hasn't used weather manipulation like a tornado a single time. All of those characters, especially Kurse, Surtur, and Loki, would've been pretty susceptible to a Tornado, yet Thor never used it. It's pretty obvious at this point that it's not very in character for him.

Well, for one, spamming random people that Thor fought doesn't add any validity to your argument

Loki:

When has Thor fought Loki that this would actually be useful? Avengers one? Why would he use a tornado at Stark's building when he was already stomping Loki? There was seriously no reason

Chitari/Dark Elves/Outriders:

Seriously? At what point did Thor need to use Weather Manipulation against the chitari? He was mostly fighting fodder who were one-shot, same with the Dark Elves and Outriders

Kurse:

Thor was forced to bullrush Kurse to try and keep him and Malekith from fleeing the Dark World. Thor lost Mjolnir when Kurse backhanded him, then when Thor tried to retrieve Mjolnir, Kurse backhanded it away, so I don't see where Thor could use weather manipulation in this fight

Malekith:

Thor didn't have Mjolnir for most of this fight

Ultron:

Seriously, at which point of their small fight should Thor have used weather manipulation? I'd really like to know

Surter:

Same answer, he didn't need it or other advantages were more useful

Hela:

Hela crushed Mjolnir... Thor hasn't shown the ability to make tornados without Mjolnir

Thanos:

Legit when? They only fought twice. Once was off-screen, and the second is when Thor one-shots Thanos via a Stormbreaker throw

That doesn't prove anything... Thor could've accomplished this by bullrushing through the ship, or throwing stormbreaker, or any number of things. Hell it could've just been lightning strikes. There's really no reason to think that it's lightning cloak other than to help your argument.

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Well, because we can see the cloak activated as Thor bullrushes the Ship, so it makes sense for the cloak to be doing this damage

Lightning is already hotter then re-entry so I don't see the problem considering that both Thanos and Hela have shrugged off direct lightning blasts from Thor. Quite simply, I don't see why lightning cloak would work on them why direct hits didn't.

Thanos shrugged off a lightning blast from Thor that is unquantifiable. Thor's lightning blasts from the sky kept Hela off-screen for over a minute both of the times that she was hit by them

Looks like he also bullrushed through it, which would destroy it as well.

Do you not see the lightning clearly latching off Thor and on to the thresher?

I'm pretty sure Thor's direct lightning bolts >> his cloak and both Hela and Thanos shrugged those off, doesn't seem like a problem. Plus as I mentioned earlier, Necroblades and pain in general seem to shut off Thor's cloak which allows the duo to get close.

1) Care to prove that the blast that hit Thanos>Thor's Cloak?

2) Like I said above, Hela was off-screen for over a minute both of the times that Thor hit her with serious lightning blasts

3) And Thor has already shown the ability to avoid those blades and can block them via Stormbreaker

Hulk got back up pretty easily, it wasn't "nearly a one-shot" and Hela was literally no-selling Thor's non amped lightning punches which would make her more durable then Hulk and Thanos was also obviously more durable then Hulk.

1) Hulk didn't get up for about 10 seconds. He also was severely dazed even when he did get up

2) The second part of your comment made me laugh... How does Hela no-selling Thor's non lightning amped punches have anything at all to do with Thor's lightning amped punches? Especially when I'm showing how much more powerful his lightning amped punches are than normal punches

Thor got hit with much deeper wounds while he was fighting Hela up in the castle. After that, Hela was multi tasking with multiple things at once(Valkyrie, The Ship, Thor) and so never quite landed the same level of wounds she did in the 1v1. Thor only "healed" off superficial wounds, not like the ones she took earlier.

So.. Speculation? Thor still got up from Hela's stabs in less than 15 seconds on-screen

So it took him hours to go from nearly dead, but intact to Koed, but relatively ok? I'm not sure why that's supposed to be impressive or relevant to the fight. The battle likely won't last 10 minutes, much less hours.

This is more or less reinforcing Thor's HF, and again, this was in space where Thor couldn't even breath

Thor most certainly could not heal from wounds in seconds. Thor shrugged off a few light wounds and got a boost from when he initially tapped into the cloak, much like he did when he was immediately exposed to Stormbreaker, but there was no evidence that he continuously was healing. It was just pain tolerance.

It took less than 15 seconds for Thor to get up from Hela's Stabs. Wether that is pain tolerance or HF it doesn't matter because Thor can still fight just as well

The Take Away From This:

Thor can incapacitate Hela and Thanos with lighting which leaves them wide open for a Stormbreaker throw or strike

Stormbreaker:

Firstly, there's really no reason Hela can't do what she did to Mjolnir to Stormbreaker(except crushing it). Thor hasn't shown any new abilities on Stormbreaker except lightning and that wouldn't change the outcome. To add insult to injury there isn't even a worthiness enchantment. Quite simply, Hela can just grab Stormbreaker.

Except for the massive blade? Also, Mjolnir flew in a straight line that was easy for Hela to catch

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Like this

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Stormbreaker is obviously different

This was done only using a feint hit morphed into a throw. That's not exactly something you can do with a giant axe as easily as you can with a staff. When not using that faint(in a spot that wouldn't kill Hela anyway), Thor couldn't land a clean hit on Hela with either Gungir or the sword, two more maneuverable and faster weapons then Stormbreaker.

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Why is it that Thor can't just as casually Throw Stormbreaker like this? Thor has thrown Mjolnir in this same motion

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Notice at the end of the gif Thor throws Mjolnir underhanded just like he threw Gungnir. No reason Stormbreaker can't do the same

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That's besides the fact that Thor has already used his lightning from a weapon to rag doll Hela (It's also worth noting that Stormbreaker is at least half a foot longer than the sword Thor is using in this scene, so even if Thor missed her with this sword by a small margin, Stormbreaker wouldn't)

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Thor also tagged Hela in the face twice

So tagging Hela with Stormbreaker will be no problem for Thor

Thor literally only tagged Hela with lightning, the sword itself never touched Hela.

Looks like it did, but even if it slightly missed her, Stormbreaker has about half a foot further reach than that sword did, so it should have no problem hitting Hela

Oh, Thor can tag Hela himself, btw

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So Thor tagging her with Stormbreaker should be like a walk in the park

Outriders in no way compare to Hela or Thanos. Both Hela and Thanos outdo Outriders in everyway by a huge margin. Both Thanos and Hela could replicate this feat of Thor's easily, it's simply not impressive. Furthermore, if Thor starts doing this, Hela can just send a few necroblades his way.

Clearly you didn't read my comment or misunderstood it. I was showing you how Thor can use Stormbreaker just as easily as a sword because you claimed he couldn't

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Thor clearly has just as much skill and speed with Stormbreaker as he does with a sword. Also, what durability feats do Hela and Thanos have to survive an axe in their chest?

Except moving a foot to the left or right

Gees, well that would have been a splendid thing for Thanos to have done on-screen, but he didn't. He chose to attempt to block or tank the attack. To deny that is simply denying On-Screen evidence, and it would also be an OOC argument, but even if they tried to dodge it, they wouldn't get far

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Just like these Outriders who tried to run away

But does it carry the same potency as the strong overhand throw? Additionally, Hela caught Mjolnir and he could control that telepathically as well.

You need to prove Thanos or Hela will survive any contact with Stormbreaker. Hela was pierced through by a generic asgardian blade and Thanos has no piercing feats to suggest he would survive Stormbreaker

Hela caught Mjolnir? The heck does that have to do with anything? I'm talking about your team trying to dodge Stormbreaker. I'd like to see Hela try and catch Stormbreaker... It flies nothing like Mjolnir did. Mjolnir flew in a straight line to Hela, hence she could catch/block it. Stormbreaker does not, AND it has a blade that would cut her hand off

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Mjolnir Flight

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Stormbreaker Flight

Clearly Stormbreaker doesn't fly like Mjolnir does, so Hela is NOT catching Stormbreaker

The Take Away From This:

Essentially, wether it be CQC or Ranged Combat, Stormbreaker can one-shot Hela or Thanos. Neither Thanos or Hela can dodge a Stormbreaker throw because Thor has shown complete telepathic control over Stormbreaker, so it will follow them. Since Thor is also faster and more skilled than either Thanos or Hela, they won't have a chance of avoiding Stormbreaker in CQC either

Scenario Counters:

Scenario 1:

Ranged Scenario:

Before I get in to countering this, I want to remind you that Kev is using quite a few OOC arguments, but he made a massive deal about my strategies for Thor being OOC, even though they were not. There is an Obvious double standard here

Thanos knows that as well, which is why this time, since he's not a moron, he'll just dodge it.

Why didn't he dodge it in the movie? He legit had no reason not to. Thanos in the film chose to not dodge attacks, but to tank them. Since the characters do NOT have full knowledge in this battle I don't see how Thanos would even know that Stormbreaker would kill him to begin with

Stormbreaker also can be Telepathically controlled by Thor, so Thanos can't dodge it

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You're literally saying Thanos will do something he could have done in the movie because.. reasons? But when I say Thor will use an attack or strategy he has already used, you say it's out of character. Double standard

This is just Thor using lightning on a distracted Thanos who doesn't know he's there. Firstly Thanos will be paying attention, so this won't happen the same way and secondly how the hell is this a blitz in any way?

Because he rag dolled Thanos with lightning before he could react?

How will Thor do this before Hela can just throw some blades in quick succession despite the fact that Hela was shown to be at least as fast as Thor all the time in Ragnarok, and I would say a lot faster and more skilled.

Even if Hela somehow hit Thor with blades (She won't, because he can block and dodge them) he can heal in less than 15 seconds as seen On-Screen, and since they are hundreds of feet away from each other Thor will have far more than 15 seconds

How is it denying evidence? On-screen he tried to block it with the IG, as in doing something. Here he doesn't have anything to block it with so he would just dodge it. It's like saying that Thor never used CQC against Thanos so he won't and otherwise is denying on-screen evidence.

Because Thanos dodged almost nothing on-screen. The dude nearly always resorted to tanking things, like Hulk's punches, Iron-man's rockets and punches, and Stormbreaker. Like I said, even if Thanos did try to dodge, Stormbreaker can follow him

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Just like it followed these running Outriders

It might be inferior in damage output, but in terms of maneuverability, speed, and ability to feint, Gungir is a much better weapon and Stormbreaker won't kill Hela if it lands the same way. Plus the fact Thor never tagged Hela with a weapon again, despite having an even better h2h weapon, a sword, why would he do it with Stormbreaker based on one feint that wouldn't work with Stormbreaker?

Because IC Hela blocks weapons most the time, like she decided to do with Gungnir multiple times

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Hela blocks Gungir multiple times here, and any one of those times would have been the end of Hela had Thor been using Stormbreaker. It might just be OOC for Hela to dodge

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I've already shown how Thor can use a Stormbreaker just as easily as a Sword. Stormbreaker has further reach which means it will easily reach far enough to cave Hela's chest in. It's also important to note that Hela wasn't dodging these hits. Thor hit her in the chest here with his lightning/sword. Hela only dodged when she was pinned down to the Bifrost bridge, so again, claiming she would dodge in this situation is simply OOC

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Even in your own Gif of Hela "dodging" Thor's attacks, Hela still gets hit in the face twice by the Swords Thor is wielding. Stormbreaker has further reach and can be used just as easily by Thor, so in this scene Hela would have her head cut off by Stormbreaker

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Clearly Thor is controlling the fight due to his speed, and all Hela can do is try and stay out of the way. Heck, Thor was even able to block her blades, then grab and throw Hela before she could do anything

I'm not sure you know what blitz means

I mean hitting them before they can react

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With this strategy, the overall counter is pretty easy, Thor goes up in the air and Hela smacks him out of the air with some big necroblades. Pretty simple.

Again, Hela NEVER used these on Thor, so why would she now? For all the fuss you made about "OOC Arguments" You sure make a lot of them yourself

Summary:

Thor will throw Stormbreaker at Thanos right off the bat. Thanos didn't block attacks in IW, but preferred to tank them, but even if Thanos did dodge Stormbreaker, Thor can still telekinetically control Stormbreaker to hit Thanos. Once Thanos is eliminated Thor will simply 1v1 Hela, and I've already shown how Thor will win that fight

Scenario 2:

Blitz Scenario:

There's that really questionable blitz again

Because Thor never blitzes in character, right?

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Thor can fly at mach speeds, and since this is to the best of their abilities we can definitely assume Thor bullrushes at that speed

But can he do the same speed during a bullrush. The Dragon was a straight line max speed flying, a bullrush is going toward a precise point that could move like with Malekith. Also, both Hela and Thanos have shrugged off lightning, Thor isn't bullrushing them with that small a time frame.

Why would Thor not bullrush at the same speed as he Flies?

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Does it look like Thor is slowing down to hit him or something? Even if it wasn't at mach speeds, a hit from Stormbreaker ends Hela or Thanos

Not sure how Hela would be outskilled since she outskilled him all of Ragnarok?

It's a good thing she didn't outskill him then, ay? All Hela did was overpower and outhax Thor pre amp

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If you look closely you will see Thor was about to hit Hela in the face again, and you will also see Hela's arm was not long enough to hit Thor the way she did there, so she was forced to use a blade. This means that once again this is NOT a showing of skill by Hela, but a showing of raw power and hax. Thor clearly controlled the fight in the beginning, but eventually Hela was able to counter Thor's skill/speed with her own hax/strength

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Once Thor unlocked his own hax there was no such counter attack from Hela, and Thor tags her twice in the face with his swords, though they did little to nothing, but with Stormbreaker Hela's head would be cut off or in half

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Once again Thor shows he is clearly faster than Hela and shows that his hax>Hela's

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Thor is fast enough to grab Hela before she can do a thing, so hitting her with Stormbreaker will be no issue for Thor

Summary:

Thor can clearly blitz Thanos before he can react, then deal with Hela in a 1v1

Thor was obviously outpacing Hela in their previous encounters, and Thor can one-shot her with Stormbreaker

Hela blocks with her arms In-Character; If and when she does, Stormbreaker will cut right through them

One way or another, wether it be via a Stormbreaker throw or a strike, Hela will be eliminated

Scenario 3:

CQC Scenario:

These are slow, weak, unskilled Outriders coming at him one at a time. Hela and Thanos are both at worst comparably skilled and speedy to Thor. Thanos is more physically imposing as is Hela and Hela also has necroblades and a healing factor so I'm really not seeing the comparison

You still have shown nothing to make Thanos anything more than a non-factor here. He is one-shot by Stormbreaker, and you have shown no real skill or speed feats for Thanos

No he wasn't. I already posted the gif before, but I'll do it again. Right before this, Hela was literally dancing around Thor, where she was actuallyoutskilling and outspeeding Thor

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Dancing around Thor? Which part was the best part of the dance? The part where she gets hit in the face twice by a sword? I seriously don't understand how you can say Hela is "dancing" around Thor. She dodges 2/4 hits
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Is this another part of that dance?

Thor is clearly controlling the battle and Hela is forced to try and dodge. Stop acting like Hela is controlling this battle, she isn't

Thanos demonstrated better skill against Hulk then Thor did against Hulk in his fight and Thor has never abused his speed, except arguably once against an Ultron drone in AoU. Furthermore in a direct comparison from Infinity War, Thanos moved about as fast if not faster then Thor.

No... There is a vast difference between the Thanos vs Hulk fight and the Thor vs Hulk fight

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Thor clearly abuses his speed and skill in combat, especially against those physically superior to him. Thanos was far stronger than Hulk, so to compare the two fights skill wise is ridiculous. Not to be rude, but you seem to have a slight problem distinguishing the difference between a Power/Strength advantage and a Skill/Speed advantage

Not against two opponents who can easily shrug it off

Quantify the lightning that hit Thanos. Thor clearly incapacitated Hela via lightning before, so why would she shrug it off this time?

Firstly this was not casual and secondly that was only due to BFR not actual damage

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Looks pretty dang casual to me. Also, where was Hela BFR'd? She fell in the water and wasn't seen on-screen for over a minute. I apologize for not providing a link to the full fight where you can count the minute out for yourselves, but I haven't found one on Youtube. That said, Hela is clearly in the water for a full minute before she launches her spikes out of the water to hit Surter. Hela Surternly (Sorry) wasn't just waiting in the water for a dramatic entrance, she was incapacitated by Thor's lightning

Summary:

This Scenario is the hardest for Thor to win, but he still does handily. Thanos will be one-shot due to his lack of feats on par with Stormbreaker's damage output, and Hela will be outpaced and stabbed through the chest

Conclusion Counters:

No, just no. If anything, Hela outpaced Thor in Ragnarok.

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Sure she did

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Thor tagged Hela twice here

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Thor was clearly controlling this fight, come on now

No, to both, just no. He didn't blitz Hela at all, he used lightning to ragdoll her. If that's a blitz then Thanos blitzed Hulk to kingdom come.

I mean... Thor reacted to the blades super easily, he simply couldn't destroy them all, and now he can block them with Stormbreaker. As to the blitzing...

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Looks like Thor can hit Hela before she can react to me, but at this point we may have just been watching different movies

And yeah, Thanos did blitz Hulk to kingdom come, I thought that was generally accepted

Except matching and outspeeding Thor themselves? Both of these characters have demonstrated skill in combat so I don't know what you mean they have "no skill feats"

Erm, since when? Thanos overpowered Hulk while Thor actually out-skilled him. Sure, Thanos used a bit of skill against Hulk, but nothing compared to Thor who is physically weaker than Hulk while Thanos is physically stronger than Hulk

Other then Thor's initial surge attack, lightning never incapacitated Hela, only the BFR. So I don't see any reason why it would work here.

You haven't proved it was BFR. Seriously, why would Hela just sit under water for an entire minute? Where was she BFR'd to by falling in to the water? Plus, Thor can use another of these

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Which would be extremely out of character

Would it though? Thor used flight to fly above Thanos and hit him with lightning, and has done the same on multiple occasions

However, both of these characters can stop being one-shot by dodging. And Hela can one-shot Thor as well with a well used Necroblade. Also Thanos can just perform a beatdown on Thor.

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Because Thanos always dodges things On-Screen.. In reality, Thanos likes to tank attacks

That's besides the fact that Thor can easily hit people who try to run or dodge because he can telepathically control Stormbreaker

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Like these Outriders who tried to run away

Lmao One-shot Thor with a necroblade? If that were the case, she would have done it

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Thanos beat down Thor? When Thor is faster and has a one-shot weapon? Not happening

Summary:

Thor is clearly faster and more skilled than Hela or Thanos. Thor also has a one-shot weapon that he can throw or use for CQC. Thor has lightning strikes that have incapacitated Hela before and Thanos lacks the energy durability feats to survive Thor's more potent attacks, plus flight that aids Thor's speed and combat. Thor can easily react to Hela's Blades AND block them with Stormbreaker, so he won't be hurt by them in the slightest

Simply put, Thor has every advantage he needs to win this fight handily

Countering your Game-plan:

Hela and Thanos hold tons of advantages over Thor. Both have comparable speed at the worst, for Hela I'd argue easily superior and with having 2 characters instead of one, Thor will be the one at a disadvantage. Furthermore, Hela and Thanos have a pretty simple way to put Thor down. Even if Thor is in the sky, just a few necroblades will quickly overwhelm him and knock him from the sky, leaving him defenseless without his cloak. Thanos can take that opportunity to beat the hell out of Thor until he's taken down.

Nice theory, but it's not very realistic. Thor has already shown the ability to block these blades, and now he has Stormbreaker to block with. Thor also is far superior Speed/Skill wise, so gl with Hela taking him in one on one combat. Realistically, Thanos is little more than a non-factor, and Hela isn't beating Thor due to the reasons I've provided

Re-Establishing Thor's Winning Advantages:

Thor's Four Key Advantages still stand:

1) Thor is still faster and more skilled than both Hela and Thanos, so he will have no problem landing a hit with Stormbreaker

2) Thor can still use his flight advantage to blitz Hela and Thanos or more easily dodge their attacks

3) Thor can still rain lightning down from the sky to kill Thanos and KO Hela

4) Stormbreaker is still able to one-shot either Hela or Thanos

Speed/Skill:

My Opponent has failed to prove Hela can keep up with Thor

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Sorry to repeat myself, but Thor is clearly fast enough to hit Hela with Stormbreaker before she can react

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Like he hit Hela with swords, but instead of swords, Thor will decapitate Hela with Stormbreaker

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Again, Thor has the clear speed advantage in this fight and will stab Hela through the chest easily

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Thor can casually throw Gungnir in Hela's chest, and he can do the same with Stormbreaker. My Opponent claims that Thor can't throw Stormbreaker in the same way, but I disagree

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Thor has already thrown Mjolnir in the same underhanded fashion, and since Stormbreaker is allowed Mjolnir's feats it should be able to complete the same task

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Thor has no problem fighting multiple opponents at once, and Thanos will be one-shot, so he doesn't even play much in to this battle

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These gifs show you just how comfortable Thor is with fighting multiple opponents at once, so facing two opponents is no issue at all for him

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Another way Thor deals with Multiple opponents is by spinning Mjolnir, and since Stormbreaker is allowed Mjolnir's feats, he can replicate this via Stormbreaker. Just imagine Stormbreaker's blade spinning this fast

The Take Away From This:

Thor is clearly faster than Hela or Thanos, and is very comfortable facing multiple opponents at once in CQC

Flight:

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Thor can still blitz at mach speeds while holding Stormbreaker, and this kind of hit will be the end of either Thanos or Hela

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Thor can also use his flight for a Lightning+Stormbreaker blitz combo

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Thor can use Levitation+Reaction Speed to more easily dodge projectiles

The Take Away From This:

Thor can use his flight for blitzing or simply for aiding his speed for dodge projectiles

Lightning/Weather Manipulation:

My Opponent claims that Thor's lightning was shrugged off by Hela, but this in incorrect

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Both of these blasts kept Hela off-screen for over a minute, so Thor should have no problem incapacitating Hela and Killing Thanos via lightning

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Thor can summon these lightning strikes with ease

The Take Away From This:

Thor can casually KO Hela and Kill Thanos with Lightning strikes. Hela, because it's already happened on-screen, and Thanos because he does not have any energy durability feats on par with these attacks

Stormbreaker:

Kev has not even tried to counter the fact that Stormbreaker can one-shot Hela or Thanos, so this is essentially a section about if Thor can hit them or not

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I've posted these gifs enough times I'm sure you all know by now that Thor can and will outpace Hela, and that will lead to her death by Stormbreaker

Thanos is one-shot by a casual Stormbreaker hit or throw

The Take Away From This:

Thor can outpace Hela and Thanos with ease, then end them via a Stormbreaker throw or strike

How Thor's Advantages Still Turn In To A Victory:

Scenario One:

Ranged Scenario:

Simply put, Thor can still easily One-Shot Thanos, then deal with Hela 1v1

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Like this

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Thanos won't be able to dodge because Thor can telepathically control Stormbreaker, so it will follow Thanos and kill him

Once Thanos is out of the way, Hela will be dealt with

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Thor simply outpaces her, then stabs her with Stormbreaker

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Summary:

Thor will one-shot Thanos from the other side of the bifrost bridge, then deal with Hela 1v1

Scenario Two:

Blitz Scenario:

Thor can blitz Hela or Thanos right off the bat at Mach Speeds

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Like this. Either Hela or Thanos will die from a blitz like this when Thor is wielding Stormbreaker, then Thor proceeds to 1v1 the survivor

Summary:

Thor will blitz one of his opponents right off the bat before they can react, then 1v1 the remaining opponent

Scenario Three:

CQC Scenario:

This is the hardest of the three Scenarios for Thor to win, but he still does easily

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Thor has no problem at all facing multiple opponents at once, and that's ignoring the large Speed and Skill gap between Thor and his opponents

Thor also uses this particular tactic for fighting multiple people:

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This will aid him greatly in fighting Thanos and Hela. Just imagine Stormbreaker's blade spinning this fast protecting Thor

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Thor can one-shot either Thanos or Hela first, then one-shot the other

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Thor clearly has the speed to fight Hela and a slow opponent such as Thanos

Summary:

Thor can easily beat two opponents such as these even in CQC. Thor has demonstrated the Speed and Skill + a one-shot weapon to win this battle

Conclusion:

I have proven that Thor's Advantages such as Speed/Skill, Flight, Lightning, and Stormbreaker turn in to winning Scenarios for Thor

On the other hand, my Opponent has failed to counter my points and hasn't given a legitimate Scenario where his team can win

It is because of these reasons that Thor is the clear winner of this battle

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#194 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29701 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruh

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#195 Posted by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#196 Posted by deactivated-5d2cf537b4a1c (3506 posts) - - Show Bio

It's enjoyable that we have a debate between the on-screen and the script; I haven't seen that before, and I find it really interesting.

@xzone

I like the manner in which you separate skill from strength in the CQC.

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#197 Posted by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio

@rajjar said:

It's enjoyable that we have a debate between the on-screen and the script; I haven't seen that before, and I find it really interesting.

@xzone

I like the manner in which you separate skill from strength in the CQC.

I’m very happy you are enjoying!

Thanks

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#198 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (12149 posts) - - Show Bio
Loading Video...

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#199 Posted by xZone (10412 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebestofthebest: I should have known this would be the kind of response I’d get from you...

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#200 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (12149 posts) - - Show Bio