CaV: MCU Thor (xZone) Vs MCU Thanos and Hela (Kevd4wg)

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#451 Edited by Scipio123 (644 posts) - - Show Bio

I ultimately have to give my vote to @xzone, even though I think both of you did a good job overall.

Despite, this, I also think you both made some questionable arguments:

@kevd4wg failed to really come up with a viable answer to Stormbreaker. His attempts to argue that Thanos would be able to dodge Stormbreaker were unconvincing IMO. Thanos didn't dodge anything in IW, including things far slower than Stormbreaker like that giant structure than Tony dropped on him. Similarly, his claims that Hela would be able to catch and crush Stormbreaker were dubious at best. We still don't know how Hela crushed Mjolnir (I tend to buy into the idea that she crushed it using her worthiness enchantment rather than her brute strength) or whether this method could be applied to Stormbreaker. And this ignores the fact that (as X showed) Stormbreaker moves through the air while spinning (makes it harder to catch), constantly has lightning coming off it and has a razor sharp edge to it.

As for the claim that Hela could tank a blow from Stormbreaker's axe side...wow... just wow. Hela got skewered by a fodder Asgardian sword, so I fail to see how a freaking "King's Weapon" would fail to kill her. Hela isn't coming back from a slice to the neck or getting a limb chopped off. Kev seemed desperate to emphasise how big and clumsy Stormbreaker is, when the size difference between Mjolnir and Stormbreaker isn't actually that big. Mjolnir got pretty enormous (especially in the more recent movies). There's no evidence to suggest that Stormbreaker is actually that much slower than Mjolnir and Thor would obviously be more proficient in wielding Stormbreaker than Gungnir, because Stormbreaker is very similar to Mjolnir in how it functions. I found the idea that Thor is somehow more dangerous in CQC with random swords than he is with Stormbreaker pretty laughable.

I also didn't think it was fair to compare Thor's fight against Hulk in the arena to Thanos' fight with Hulk in IW. Unlike Thanos, Thor spent a good chunk of that fight trying to reason with Hulk and calm him down. Once Thor got more serious, Hulk struggled to tag him. Sure, Hulk eventually overwhelmed Thor (due to his physical superiority), but the fight was hardly one-sided. And once Thor got his lightning in play, the fight was clearly turning into a stomp, forcing the Grandmaster to cheat. In this fight, Thor has Stormbreaker as well as lightning, putting Thor on a totally different level to how he was in the arena. Current Thor w/ Stormbreaker would stomp Hulk even more easily than Thanos did.

Still, I think Kev did a good job of showing that Thanos is much more of a factor in this fight than one might assume, as well as showing how skilled and fast Hela is.

As for X, he definitely had the harder job here. You did a great job showing how Thor (especially in the bridge fight) was arguably out-skilling Hela and that his losses were more due to her better stats than her superior speed or skill. That being said I felt that you went a bit too far in arguing that Thor "blitzes" people. Thor has never truly blitzed anyone. He bullrushes people and I think Kev did a good job of illustrating this difference. You also downplayed Thanos and Hela's skill, which seemed unnecessary. Still, I think you showed that having a one-shot weapon like Stormbreaker can counteract being physically outmatched.

GG to both of you.

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#452 Edited by Kevd4wg (13121 posts) - - Show Bio

@scipio123: Thanks for voting, but

Hela would be able to catch and crush

I never claimed Hela would crush it

As for the claim that Hela could tank a blow from Stormbreaker's axe sid

Never claimed that either, I claimed her gauntlets, which resisted stuff that cut through her, could take a hit from it

There's no evidence to suggest that Stormbreaker is actually that much slower than Mjolnir

I never claimed that either

Thor would obviously be more proficient in wielding Stormbreaker than Gungnir

I think you missed my point, I said they're inherently different weapons and thus work differently. Just because the greatest swordsmen in the world does something with an axe, doesn't mean he can do it with a sword, they're different weapons.

I found the idea that Thor is somehow more dangerous in CQC with random swords than he is with Stormbreaker pretty laughable.

I also never said that, I said Thor can't replicate his feat with the swords because 2 swords and 1 stormbreaker is inherently different

Not asking you to change your vote or anything, just want to make myself clear

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#453 Edited by Scipio123 (644 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg:

I never claimed Hela would crush it

Even so, my basic point about her not being able to catch it stands. That fact that Stormbreaker is constantly spinning, spewing lightning and has a sharp edge is going to make it extremely difficult to catch. Sorry for putting words in your mouth.

I never claimed that either

You made a big deal out of stating what a clumsy and ungainly weapon Stormbreaker supposedly is. You clearly intended to show that Thor is slower and less agile in combat with Stormbreaker than with Mjolnir or any other weapon. I'm not talking about travel speed here.

I think you missed my point, I said they're inherently different weapons and thus work differently. Just because the greatest swordsmen in the world does something with an axe, doesn't mean he can do it with a sword, they're different weapons.

Stormbreaker is far more similar to Mjolnir than it is to Gungnir in that both weapons do basically the same stuff (granting Thor flight, better striking power etc) with Stormbreaker having the added bonus of being a cutting weapon. By this logic, Thor should be more skilled at using Stormbreaker than using Gungnir because the former is much more similar in how it functions to the weapon he spent 1000+ years wielding.

I also never said that, I said Thor can't replicate his feat with the swords because 2 swords and 1 stormbreaker is inherently different

Ok

Again, I apologise for misinterpreting some of your stuff. It's been a while since I read the earlier posts.

Still, this doesn't change my vote.

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#454 Edited by phisigmatau (2093 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg:

sorrry i dont like to go back and forth and argue on a thread

but that too me is definitely not Hulk dominating. literally five seconds beforre Thor was boxing his way around the skill-less Hulk While trying to talk him outta the fight then goes to slam him with the hammer-- when hulk stops it Thor is smiling..

Hulk simply was not phsyically dominating anything.. and Thor was nowhere near knocked out.

Also I honestly believe both were holding back... Hulk knew he could go all out with Thor and not kill him

Thor was trying to get his friend back... I think the verbal spat they have afterwards kinda solidifies this.

@scipio123 argues the sames points about the Hulk match as well.

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#455 Posted by dcuwins (348 posts) - - Show Bio

MY VOTE GOES TO @https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/kevd4wg/

HE THOROUGHLY DEBUNKS XZONE STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS AND REGURGITATED DEBUNKED POINTS ABOUT THOR.

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#456 Posted by dcuwins (348 posts) - - Show Bio

MY VOTE GOES TO @https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/kevd4wg/

HE THOROUGHLY DEBUNKS XZONE STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS AND REGURGITATED DEBUNKED POINTS ABOUT THOR.

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#457 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: Well, Thor has his cloak now I think is what he means... It’s a little different

X

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#459 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#461 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#462 Posted by ourmanuel (12971 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm, surprisingly close votes.

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#463 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#464 Posted by ourmanuel (12971 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: unlikely.

Takes too much time and I’m too lazy rn.

Who knows, maybe I’ll just quote someone I agree with. I already see a few posts that sum up my opinion.

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#465 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#466 Posted by ourmanuel (12971 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: have some guts and join our server

Also, when does voting end?

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#467 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: Wow...

The plan is this weekend, but I don’t think we have finalized it

X

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#469 Edited by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe this deserves a response

On-Topic:

This isn't a vote for @kevd4wg but I do want to point out a few things from @xzone. Who knows, maybe the Live Action Solo King can make a comeback someday with just a little bit of advice.

  • Stop repeating yourself so much. IIRC you posted the same exact final sections in every single post. If your point stands, it stands. It got repetitive and slightly annoying.

Reinforcing a point is pivotal. People forget things quickly. CAVs are not just about how people debated, but about how much the voters remember of the debate

  • The gif where Thor deflected the Hela sword that you cropped, which Kev called you out on for Thor getting tagged? Just admit you're wrong. You went from presenting it in your opener, to getting it countered, to saying it doesn't count because Thor was surprised despite dodging and blocking two other ones respectively. What you're basically saying is you presented a feat in your opener that doesn't count except when you wanted it to, but when it got countered it no longer counted.

It's a reaction, sure, but that doesn't mean Thor was looking (Probably heard the blade). Thor didn't have his cloak activated because he was distracted, and that changes how Thor can destroy the blades. So yes, it is a reaction feat like I said, but no it does not count as Hela overwhelming Thor because he wasn't looking at the first blade, and his cloak was clearly deactivated

That said, some of your points were strong. Pointing out Hela's strength advantage as a contrast to speed/skill (though I do believe Hela was clearly faster/more skilled). I also disagreed that Thanos would just stand there and try and tank a weapon that almost killed him before, that seemed more than just illogical. Even then, you made this closer than I thought it would be. Kudos.

Kev and I did not make clear how much knowledge the characters had before we started this debate (I was assuming they did not have full knowledge), so that area about Thanos was a little harder to debate about, so I simply showed that Thanos doesn't dodge in character

As always, thanks for reading the CAV


X

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#470 Posted by IndomitableRegal (17272 posts) - - Show Bio

Haven't read through it yet. I should be able to vote tomorrow if this is still open.

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#473 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#474 Posted by ANTHP2000 (30250 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok I'll read through when I get back from my walk in a few hours.

Online
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#475 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#476 Posted by Thanos_thebadas (1330 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote once I've woken up

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#477 Posted by Amcu (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg@xzone Alright just finished reading. I'm going to be honest, I don't feel like writing out a post and voting. I would have to go back and analyse far more than I really want to. But I will say that both of you did a very good job. I think y'all were both a bit overly aggressive but the debating was very good from both of you.

To both of you I'll say,

No Caption Provided

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#478 Posted by Kevd4wg (13121 posts) - - Show Bio
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#479 Edited by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: That’s the second time in a row you have decided to go with a tie in my CAVs lol

I do appreciate the kind words though

X

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#480 Posted by Amcu (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

@amcu: That’s the second time in a row you have decided to go with a tie in my CAVs lol

I do appreciate the kind words though

X

Actually I don't necessarily think it was a tie(I was leaning towards Kev If I'm honest). I just feel to actually give a vote that counts I would need to poor over everything more thoroughly and come to a very definite conclusion with a detailed explanation backing it up.

Regardless, both of you did a great job and debated about as well as you could have IMO.

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#481 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Close enough, thanks for reading

X

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#483 Posted by IndomitableRegal (17272 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Uh. Mind making that later? Won't even be home from work by then...

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#484 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#485 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

*takes a seat next to shadowy figure before facing drink*

This has to be blessed by my opinion will vote momentarily

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#486 Posted by Darkthunder (3608 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone. I vote for Thor . Both have provided good arguments but keV has not given any good piercing durability feats for Thanos so he dies. As for hela if battle is on Asgard then...

I think it will be a stalemate

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#487 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#488 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#489 Posted by Thanos_thebadas (1330 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Right I'm here now gonna read through the threads and come to my conclusion once I'm done.

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#490 Posted by Darkthunder (3608 posts) - - Show Bio
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#491 Posted by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio
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#492 Posted by Scipio123 (644 posts) - - Show Bio

It's neck and neck! Could go either way!

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#493 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7545 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w said:

*takes a seat next to shadowy figure before facing drink*

This has to be blessed by my opinion will vote momentarily

You called?

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#494 Edited by Thenewguysnm1 (7545 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to say this cav has been extremely entertaining.

You both have made this cav really "Special".

All things considered i feel @xzone takes the cake as he was a little more precise and hard hitting with the points that he made.

His use of gifs were very classy and straight to the point.

Well done @xzone

@kevd4wg I have been over critical in the past and that has lead to a ban.

You are facing a very capable opponent in XZONE so i not gonna crap on you but what i will say is you could use of got straight to the point more like XZONE as well been a little more clear in your approach.

As in my 2018 review thread a few of your old habits have risen to the surface but i must say this is a big improvement from some of your other "cavs". If you would like to go over this more in depth and if you want me to be a little more harsh and critical PM me and i will run through this cav post for post and show you were i think you lost this "cav"

Well done lads.

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#495 Posted by ourmanuel (12971 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m pretty sure Newguys voted for zone just to troll kev

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#497 Edited by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewguysnm1: As much as I’d like to count your vote, I simply can’t take it. I’m pretty sure you are simply voting for me to annoy Kev, but I appreciate you taking the time to read said CAV

Edit: But I do agree with your reasoning ;)

X

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#498 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7545 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

@thenewguysnm1: As much as I’d like to count your vote, I simply can’t take it. I’m pretty sure you are simply voting for me to annoy Kev, but I appreciate you taking the time to read said CAV

Edit: But I do agree with your reasoning ;)

X

Nah.I dont actually dislike Kev

KOL on the other hand...

I see your reasoning for not wanting to count it and im happy to give feedback

@kevd4wg The offer still stands.I would love to help you improve.

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#499 Edited by xZone (10590 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewguysnm1: Like I said, I simply can’t accept the vote because of the personal bias you seem to have against each other. If for some reason Kev and you sorted it out (and Kev told me), then I wouldn’t have an issue with it

Have a nice day

X

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#500 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7545 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

@thenewguysnm1: Like I said, I simply can’t accept the vote because of the personal bias you seem to have against each other. If for some reason Kev and you sorted it out (and Kev told me), then I wouldn’t have an issue with it

Have a nice day

X

Have a nice day and good luck

X