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#202 Edited by geeman2 (1789 posts) - - Show Bio

I am firstly going to say good job @xzone and @kryptonianpride on this great CAV! It was a highly enjoyable read and came out at a steady pace.

As for who I think won? I think the arguments were solid on both side, Xzone proved that Thor is and absolute force and has the ability to annihilate Strange but Kryp proved that not only can Strange defend blasts and react to Thor (as he proved in his second post) but he can also use his magical powers to BFR Thor (which he used against another Asgardian, Loki) and restrain him and has the combat intelligence to outplay Thor. Kryptonian proved to me that Strange is versatile enough to take this fight and win it comfortably. I also thought Kryps counters were superior, however I do think he lowballed Thor slightly which Xzone did point out.

My vote goes to @kryptonianpride good job dude, and you too Xzone! I liked how you both used a great array of feats that backed your points.

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#204 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#205 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#206 Posted by miekskywalker (2021 posts) - - Show Bio

Good job guys if this was a vs fight I would give it to Thor however both of you did very well and made some good rebuttals

Therefore it’s a draw from me

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#207 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@miekskywalker: No draws. Vote for whoever you think better even by the smallest margin (you don’t realy have to vote, but I And kryptonian would appreciate it lol)

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#208 Edited by Oreoghoul (1649 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm gonna go with @xzone mainly for the reasons @lan_fan said. In particularly, @kryptonianpride , while he proved that Strange's shields were strong enough to defend against attacks, didn't prove Strange would be fast enough. Mainly here:

In my intro, I showed that Thanos tossing lightning through the Infinity Gauntlet still was slow enough for Strange to form a defense for and toss it right back. Clearly, anything from the Infinity Gauntlet is going to be more powerful, faster and better in every way than even Infinity War Thor's Lightning.

It was an erroneous claim on his end to claim that Thanos' attack was faster, there was no proof provided. And Strange being fast enough is a huge part of the battle. (+ reasons like lan_fan said)

Not to mention a lot of his counters were more so not direct counters. Instead of trying to debunk what Xzone had said, he spent more focus introducing a new feat to try and discredit that featinstead of debunking what Xzone had shown.

As for Xzone, look what your opponent said here:

xZone, you introduced about 20 new arguments and feats into your closing argument. You provided your battle strategy in your final closing argument with 3 scenarios. Seems immensely unfair to me. I mentioned that in my closing statement that it wouldn't be fair to bring up brand new arguments and at this point it was too late for you to bring up any actual battle plan in your closing argument. You made sure I couldnt respond to your actual battle scenario and what Thor would do, and also introduced brand new feats after my responses were done?

Whatever at this point. I hope voters understand that you aren't supposed to do that in CAVs and that you need to have your strategy fully known to the opponent prior to the final statements.

Thanks for reading everyone, good luck to my opponent and a pre thank you for the voting that is to come.

While I understand your perspective of things (just taking what you had already said previously and putting it into scenarios), I don't think you should've ended it the way you did. If you introduced these scenarios directly in your opener instead and allowed your opponent the time to attempt to debunk it, it would've worked out better. It did seem unfair to him.

But ultimately, Xzone debated better overall and the feats and counters he provided proved why Thor is superior and would win. Without BFR and the Time-Stone, @kryptonianpride was fighting an uphill battle. For advice, focus more on debunking claims directly instead of showing weaker showings to discredit it (unless you're trying to prove outliers or consistency) and spend more time on the aspects of the fight that severely matter (his speed in this scenario).

It was a good CaV all in all. Happy I got to read it :)

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#209 Edited by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@oreoghoul: I appreciate the vote, but I didn’t add any new strategies in the last post, all I did was culminate them in to scenarios so it was easier to read

Scenario one was Thor blitzing Strange with lightning (see my opening I made this exact argument)

Scenario two was a counter to his astral plane argument

Scenario three was for all out combat

I made all of these arguments in previous posts, all I did was culminate them in to scenarios so they were easier to understand, like a closing argument should be

Saying that what I did was unfair is so far from the truth it’s laughable

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#210 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#213 Edited by kryptonianpride (1551 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Your strategy was missing from your intro, first and second post and you posted an actual scenario of what Thor would do in your final after I posted my final. I addressed it in my final statement before you posted because you didn't tell me what thor would do. My sections were all clearly labeled with How Strange would win. Yours were missing that entirely until after my final closing statement was made. You listed feats, you didnt actually tell anyone what your strategy was or how Thor would counter Strange knowing everything about him prior to battle.

You also didn't address how or why Strange wouldnt immediately start in astral form, which was my entire argument and you didnt mention how or why Thors lightning would beat Astral forms of Strange. Strange went into this in astral form knowing everything about Thor, and I stated that twice. You didnt address is and I gave scenarios of battle in my first post. Your 3 scenarios are in your final closing statement. That isn't at all fair. but, whatever.

I appreciate everyones vote, but this seems immensely unfair to get locked away from his battle scenario and new feats and gifs posted in his final closing argument after I made my closing argument. He made sure I couldnt respond. So, best I can do is shrug and say ty for the few votes I did get. And thanks for the CAV in general, it was fun.

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#216 Posted by Oreoghoul (1649 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

@oreoghoul: I appreciate the vote, but I didn’t add any new strategies in the last post, all I did was culminate them in to scenarios so it was easier to read

That's what I said. I completely understand it and know what you meant.

@xzone said:

Scenario one was Thor blitzing Strange with lightning (see my opening I made this exact argument)

Scenario two was a counter to his astral plane argument

Scenario three was for all out combat

I made all of these arguments in previous posts, all I did was culminate them in to scenarios so they were easier to understand, like a closing argument should be

My point was, you weren't directly countering his last post. Post #98 he had many counters to you directly. Instead of following up directly on what he said, you made three scenarios that semi-countered what he had said. You didn't respond to what he wrote completely. That's all I meant.

@xzone said:

Saying that what I did was unfair is so far from the truth it’s laughable

X

From your opponents perspective, and as a 3rd party, I think it was a tiny bit. But it didn't take away from your arguments and feats, which were very solid.

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#218 Edited by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@oreoghoul said:
@xzone said:

@oreoghoul: I appreciate the vote, but I didn’t add any new strategies in the last post, all I did was culminate them in to scenarios so it was easier to read

That's what I said. I completely understand it and know what you meant.

@xzone said:

Scenario one was Thor blitzing Strange with lightning (see my opening I made this exact argument)

Scenario two was a counter to his astral plane argument

Scenario three was for all out combat

I made all of these arguments in previous posts, all I did was culminate them in to scenarios so they were easier to understand, like a closing argument should be

My point was, you weren't directly countering his last post. Post #98 he had many counters to you directly. Instead of following up directly on what he said, you made three scenarios that semi-countered what he had said. You didn't respond to what he wrote completely. That's all I meant.

Yeah, because it would be unfair to counter something he is unable of countering again... That was the entire point.. To be fair to him, though the second scenario was a counter, the 1st and 3rd were my original arguments

@xzone said:

Saying that what I did was unfair is so far from the truth it’s laughable

X

From your opponents perspective, and as a 3rd party, I think it was a tiny bit. But it didn't take away from your arguments and feats, which were very solid.

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#221 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#223 Posted by DrPepperMan (6115 posts) - - Show Bio

I swear that Thor not being able to overpower a chair part almost made me give up on voting. I'll read through and vote though.

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#224 Edited by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@drpepperman said:

I swear that Thor not being able to overpower a chair part almost made me give up on voting. I'll read through and vote though.

Oh my goodness... I had somehow missed him saying that. I don't want to respond to horribly atm, but... lmfao

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#227 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for votes

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#228 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (3216 posts) - - Show Bio
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#229 Posted by Nucleon (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

Both CaVers did a great, classy job. I seriously thought this was going to be a walk in the park for Thor, but Kryptonianpride coinvinced me that Strange might win even thought he is less strong, less fast. less durable and even less powerful than Thor, simply because he's got hax. On the other hand, XZone was at his excellent self, as usual.

My vote's for Kryptonianpride.

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#230 Posted by kryptonianpride (1551 posts) - - Show Bio
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#231 Posted by Mister_Surreal (6205 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote Strange using the mirror dimension attack.

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#232 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#233 Posted by Mister_Surreal (6205 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Thanks and you're welcome. Also, either could win but I feel like Doctor Strange takes this if he is smart.

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#234 Posted by Mister_Surreal (6205 posts) - - Show Bio
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#235 Edited by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@mister_surreal said:

@xzone: Thanks and you're welcome. Also, either could win but I feel like Doctor Strange takes this if he is smart.

You mean my opponent debated better? this isn't a regular forum ya know :p

Please vote based on who you believed represented their character better

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#236 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#237 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting ends this Saturday 12 midnight, so make sure you get your votes in b4 then

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#238 Posted by mrmonster (13600 posts) - - Show Bio

This was great, and honestly hard to judge. I'm gonna vote for...@xzone. But like I said, both of he and @kryptonianpride deserve a high five for this one.

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#239 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

This was great, and honestly hard to judge. I'm gonna vote for...@xzone. But like I said, both of he and @kryptonianpride deserve a high five for this one.

Thanks for the vote, but mind explaining a little why you were convinced and how?

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#240 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#241 Posted by Syntix (284 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

@xzone: You should still count those 2 votes from EineFaust and Syntix. Let's just assume that they're convinced Strange is too versatile for Thor due to Kryptonianpride's arguments.

you don’t have to assume, i already said he “convinced” me, not sure if the other guy thinks the same though.

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#242 Posted by mrmonster (13600 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: What really sealed the deal for me was your points about speed. I don't think @kryptonianpride did enough to counter your point that Thor could blitz him.

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#243 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@syntix: Yeah, I knew you were convinced because you told me

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#244 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#245 Posted by kryptonianpride (1551 posts) - - Show Bio

@syntix: I'm not at all worried. Its fine :)

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#246 Edited by Tedirey (2428 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone:Great arguments for Thor. While you almost got my vote, @kryptonianpride: showcased just enough of Dr. Strange's versatility to get my vote. Dr. Strange as shown here, has slightly more defenses and offensive capability to win. The debater for Dr. Strange got my vote but it's very close.

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#247 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#248 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: What really sealed the deal for me was your points about speed. I don't think @kryptonianpride did enough to counter your point that Thor could blitz him.

Thanks man

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#249 Edited by Amcu (15426 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: @kryptonianpride:

First of all respect to both of you in this debate for dedicating time and effort into this. Overall at the end of the day I hope that you both learn from this debate and grow to become greater and greater over time.

I did a relatively quick read over this so forgive me if I got anything wrong and please correct me.

Now personally I'll admit straight up that I don't think this matchup is very close. I feel that @kryptonianpride had the inferior character and as such was at an automatic disadvantage. But I still think that I must give my vote to @xzone.

If I'm honest I think that Krypto used significant lowballing against Thor. And at the same time I think that X could have countered better. But the misinterpretation of showings is a problem that I think takes it too far like Krypto arguing that Iron Man was moving in Quicksilver's slow motion perspective. Now he later realized his mistake but it took some time for him to get that.

In addition I feel that Krypto used arguments that were not directly relating to the subject at hand. Like for instance when addressing the idea that Strange couldn't put Thor down instead of contrasting Strange's damage output to Thor's durability he compared Thor's durability to Strange's defense and argued that Strange could take worse. But in reality those feats are completely irrelevant to Dr. Strange putting Thor down. In addition to that he argued that Strange would defeat Thor via teleportation despite the fact that teleportation doesn't kill and this battle is to the death. He than later mentioned that Strange could teleport Thor to Dormammu or to a black whole despite the fact that such things are totally out of character. Even in situations were it would only be logical to do so if he could Strange did not. He also made some statements that I don't think were really baked up at all. Like Strange using the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak to drive Thor insane. Or a clone of Strange being able to do a number of things to Thor while in astral projection.

The most significant issue with his arguments however is using out of character abilities and arguing that Strange will use them. Like him cutting off a portion of Thor with a portal like Wong did in New York when he has never attempted that tactic. Infact the instance mentioned was unintentional.

A problem I have with @xzone is that I personally think he could have countered these arguments better. He could have nailed in the idea that Strange is not going to go into astral form before Thor kills him with a lighting bolt. He should have nailed in the argument that Strange chopping off a piece of Thor with a portal, and teleporting him into a black hole are out of character for him. He could have gone over every instance that Strange has not used that ability like against Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian. And even against Thanos himself where he could have cut his hand off and taken the gauntlet.

He should have nailed in these ideas and the idea that Thor can end the fight with a thought along with backing up the consistency and likelihood of such a thing happening while in bloodlusted battle considering he's done it before while not bloodlusted.

I do however agree to an extent with what @kryptonianpride said about @xzone's final post. While he had mentioned the ideas laid out in the final post, summaries to me are something that your opponent should be able to address. Countering a summary is a very nice way to point out the issues in a individuals outline of how a fight will go out and how and why their whole plain is incorrect. It seemed that there was some confusion over the number of posts that each were doing so that may partially explain it.

Overall I think @xzone put together the more logical and well thought out argument. Particularly the last post which noted how Thor could use an AOE to deal with Strange's astral projection. I would however suggest to both of you that you consider taking more time to put into your posts. I think both of you could scored more points if you had taken a bit more time to think out your arguments and formatting as well.

Overall congrats to both of you on finishing this CAV and I think in ways both of you did very well. Sorry if most of this post comes across as negative as its not my intention to be so. I just really wish for both of you to grow as debaters and become better. The best way for that to happen is to point out any areas where I think y'all can improve and in my humble view these are some of the things that each of you can work on. The most particular thing that I think y'll should consider is taking more time on your posts to think out your argument and structure your format. Make your arguments sound the best that they can. Don't just counter your opponent but structure your argument in a way that will sound correct to a viewer and bring the voters to your side. Don't count this against you because anyone can make that mistake. I know I've made the same exact mistakes in at least one of my two CAV's. But overall its better to wait a couple months for a great post the settle for a lesser one after a day of work.

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#250 Posted by xZone (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: That’s a lot you put in there. Personally, I felt like I hammered the points you mentioned almost too much, and I didn’t want to limit the debate too heavily, it’s good to know I was actually off base there, thanks.

Also, you’re vote means a lot to me, so thanks for putting in the time and effort to read our posts and to vote

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