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#401 Posted by LeonardSnart (2803 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: skimming through the debate really quickly (there's way too much info), I'd go for Thor due to the points about flight and lightning being able to hurt the kryptonians, I also don't agree with Lan_Fans assesment of Zod scaling to post-JL Supes

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#402 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#403 Posted by LeonardSnart (2803 posts) - - Show Bio
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#406 Posted by ourmanuel (11388 posts) - - Show Bio

...

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#407 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio

@leonardsnart: If you didn't read through the entire CAV, I'd appreciate it you would, and I don't think I can take a vote from someone who hasn't read all the work from both my opponent and myself

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#408 Posted by LeonardSnart (2803 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: yeah, don't count my vote, I wasn't going to vote for that reason, I'm too lazy to read thru all this info

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#409 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio

@leonardsnart: Alright, that's too bad. Thanks for reading some of it though, lol

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#410 Edited by Tenguswordsman (1862 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, this was quite an experience. Kudos to both of You for such an enjoyable CaV!

I'll separate my post into different categories for easier reading:

Thor's Lightning

This is basically the main argument of xZone, and I personally think it worked very well, all things considered. When You look at it, the Kryptonian Trio really had only one Energy Durability feat, and it was not that great, which xZone exploited, literally bombing (In a non-harmful, good way) Lan with arguments and feats that really could not be proven wrong, while showing that, while simple Lightning Cloak might not OHKO Kryptonians, but it'll mess them them up real good, while actual Lightning-enhanced blows might one-shot most of the Team. And I honestly think that trying to counter these points was sort of a waste of time, but the choice was made. Overall, this is Ultimately the Battle xZone won, and this is one of those Battles which can win Wars, potentially.

Speed

This is Lan's main argument, and, while she did convince me that Team Krypton are faster than Thor (with xZone still doing an admirable job at presenting and defending Thor's Speed), honestly, the Top-Tier Speed showings she presented were doubtful and were countered to variable degrees of success. After the Counters, it became apparent that Thor is going to be constantly outsped (Though not Super-Duper-Ultra-Curb Blitzed), but where this leads to is interesting, as the Lightning Argument showed how Thor can effectively tag Kryptonians with his Lightning and how he can put them down, while You are not going to win a Battle by running circles around Your enemy.

Strength

Along with skill, this is one of the more useless categories when You look at the Fight as a whole. xZone provided a bunch of great feats, while Lan included a few generally nice feats, with additional scaling to Superman, thus explaining why they are impressive. However, some parts of the scaling were Countered (Just like some parts of the Speed argument, yes, I am one of those people who think Supes was noticably amped in JL by Motherboxes, therefore scaling Zod off JL Supes is very iffy), and I find it a bit startling that like no feats of Faora's Strength were mentioned (I guess she is Peak Human Level, one-shotting those soldiers and all, lol, sorry).

Durability

Honestly, at first I was surprised that Blunt Durability was not that touched upon, but when You really think about it, it all makes sense. xZone did show that the Trio would have major trouble putting down Thor, by presenting a couple of feats, which was enough to convince me, which is important in the long run. For Lan Durability was never that important, her Speed Argument was supposed to show why Thor ain't tagging Kryptonians in H2H, which I still think holds true.

Skill

Well, xZone posted feats as expected, and Lan did not really argue that Thor held the Skill Advantage, which was understandable. Perhaps it seems not that important, but I think xZone's feats do show one thing - Thor is comfortable with dealing with multiple opponents, which is an Advantage that might not seem important at all, but I feel otherwise.

So, who do I think is the Winner?

xZone. While Lan made some real great Arguments why the Trio would give Thor a Hell of a Fight, I was Ultimately not convinced they could kill Thor quickly enough before they get too damaged with the unavoidable Lightning Cloak, or he gets lucky and one good Lighting-Enhanced AOE Attack finishes off most of the Team, at which point it becomes much easier for the God of Thunder.

Other Things, not necessarily about the Fight itself

- Well, I enjoyed the Formatting of both Sides greatly, Lan's was most simple, yet still most effective. On the other hand, xZone's was intiguing and unusual, using all the Features of the Editor to a cool effect.

- Both Sides had their fair share of Countering each-other's Points, though xZone did it on a much more detailed, brutal basis, not letting even the slightest hyperbole statement pass by (Yes, Punching Miles away Feat, I am looking directly at You). But Lan made some wonderful Comebacks as well.

- xZone, in post 302 of this Thread You forgot You Trademark X, this CaV is literally unreadable, I think I am gonna call the Mods, this is unexceptable and outrageous :)

- Lastly:

No Caption Provided

You both truly deserve it!

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#411 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio

@tenguswordsman: Wow, that's really in-depth and I appreciate it, man. I feel like you really understood the points I wanted to get across, Thanks

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#412 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#413 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for votes

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#414 Edited by Megafanflash (776 posts) - - Show Bio

I originally wrote a extremely long reasoning, but way to much changed during the debate. There is a lot of solid arguments going for both sides, and I want to keep this as simple as I can.

Since I enjoyed almost everything I guess nitpicking is my only choice.

Ian did convince me that the trio indeed out sped Thor with relative ease, but some of the examples he used when scaling them towards Super-man was not fair. As the only relevant Super-man scaling is from Man Of Steel. The same goes with their durability compared with Supes. Some these arguments dont really mean much, as they dont share feats with him by fighting/encountering him, like Xzone said.

Didn't like how Xzone used the term blitzing and showing how Thor out-skilling a slow brute like Hulk as a demonstration of speed, among MANY other examples. The only "blitz" I think was fair was against Malekith, which still was impressive.

Summarized, @lan_fan definitely convinced me that the Trio would and COULD bulrush and manhandle Thor together, but I was not convinced that they would handle the lightning cloak, which then again would not allow them to touch/get in close enough to start damaging him. @xzone Presented showings of Thor calling down lightning mid fight, with almost zero indications, which would leave the Trio open for attacks where they would be unable to dodge preemptively. This lightning also vaporized other characters, and seeing how there was no solid evidence of any of the Trio tanking such damage. (Magical lightning..) There is no fair way to say they would handle it. At least that is my opinion.

My vote goes to @xzone in a close battle. If the lightning cloak was not argued for this well. Ian_fan would have gotten my vote.

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#415 Edited by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio

@megafanflash: I appreciate the vote and the break down/reasoning behind it. Thanks for reading and voting

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#416 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#417 Posted by rem (2663 posts) - - Show Bio

I just reread the CaV and Authough I think the WODC team decimates them, I’m going with @xzone. He gave a pretty conving argument as to how the WODC team couldn’t survive his lightning and I feel like @lan_fan kind of set aside the fact that faora and nam ek didn’t have a real answer to that and kind of brushed it aside. I will say this, to lan, debating 3 characters who dont have nearly as many feats as another character is a big challenge. And I though his arguments were solid. one thing I did not like from both sides was the fact that Lan was comparing Zod to current superman. I also did not like some of xzones speed arguments. both did a very good job with there arguments and I hope so see another CaV from both of you in the near future.

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#418 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio

@rem said:

I just reread the CaV and Authough I think the WODC team decimates them, I’m going with @xzone. He gave a pretty conving argument as to how the WODC team couldn’t survive his lightning and I feel like @lan_fan kind of set aside the fact that faora and nam ek didn’t have a real answer to that and kind of brushed it aside. I will say this, to lan, debating 3 characters who dont have nearly as many feats as another character is a big challenge. And I though his arguments were solid. one thing I did not like from both sides was the fact that Lan was comparing Zod to current superman. I also did not like some of xzones speed arguments. both did a very good job with there arguments and I hope so see another CaV from both of you in the near future.

Appreciate the vote, and funny enough, Lan and I already have another CAV together, however we are on the same team against anthp and SG. I’d be more than happy to Tag you there if you would like

Thanks again

X

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#419 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#421 Posted by DarkPsychicLord_Prime (4084 posts) - - Show Bio

Given that i'm too lazy to construct a justification of my own, and given that this one is pretty accurate representation of what i thought of this CaV, i'll just go ahead and point out what i do agree and don't:

Thor's Lightning

This is basically the main argument of xZone, and I personally think it worked very well, all things considered. When You look at it, the Kryptonian Trio really had only one Energy Durability feat, and it was not that great, which xZone exploited, literally bombing (In a non-harmful, good way) Lan with arguments and feats that really could not be proven wrong, while showing that, while simple Lightning Cloak might not OHKO Kryptonians, but it'll mess them them up real good, while actual Lightning-enhanced blows might one-shot most of the Team. And I honestly think that trying to counter these points was sort of a waste of time, but the choice was made. Overall, this is Ultimately the Battle xZone won, and this is one of those Battles which can win Wars, potentially.

Agreed.

Speed

This is Lan's main argument, and, while she did convince me that Team Krypton are faster than Thor (with xZone still doing an admirable job at presenting and defending Thor's Speed), honestly, the Top-Tier Speed showings she presented were doubtful and were countered to variable degrees of success. After the Counters, it became apparent that Thor is going to be constantly outsped (Though not Super-Duper-Ultra-Curb Blitzed), but where this leads to is interesting, as the Lightning Argument showed how Thor can effectively tag Kryptonians with his Lightning and how he can put them down, while You are not going to win a Battle by running circles around Your enemy.

Agreed: xZone did a very good job countering why kryptonians don't fight and react at speeds faster than lightning, and why not every single kryptonian scales to Superman from later movies.

Strength

Along with skill, this is one of the more useless categories when You look at the Fight as a whole. xZone provided a bunch of great feats, while Lan included a few generally nice feats, with additional scaling to Superman, thus explaining why they are impressive. However, some parts of the scaling were Countered (Just like some parts of the Speed argument, yes, I am one of those people who think Supes was noticably amped in JL by Motherboxes, therefore scaling Zod off JL Supes is very iffy), and I find it a bit startling that no feats of Faora's Strength were mentioned (I guess she is Peak Human Level, one-shotting those soldiers and all, lol, sorry).

Agreed: Lan_fan tried once again to scale their strength to Superman from later in the movie(who was constantly progressing, even through Man of Steel), and even from later movies. xZone even pointed out Lan_fan used the tectonic plate article, which is generally not accepted as a feat, or is viewed as a massive outlier, and he explained this pretty well, making Lan_fan concede on this point.

Durability

Honestly, at first I was surprised that Blunt Durability was not that touched upon, but when You really think about it, it all makes sense. xZone did show that the Trio would have major trouble putting down Thor, by presenting a couple of feats, which was enough to convince me, which is important in the long run.

Agreed: Thor's vastly superior durability, compared to the kryptonians's damage output was presented and defended really well, to the point it made it seem like they would have a hard time putting him down, if at all.

Skill

Well, xZone posted feats as expected, and Lan did not really argue that Thor held the Skill Advantage, which was understandable. Perhaps it seems not that important, but I think xZone's feats do show one thing - Thor is comfortable with dealing with multiple opponents, which is an Advantage that might not seem important at all, but I feel otherwise.

Agreed.

So, who do I think is the Winner?

xZone. While Lan made some real great Arguments why the Trio would give Thor a Hell of a Fight, I was Ultimately not convinced they could kill Thor quickly enough before they get too damaged with the unavoidable Lightning Cloak, or he gets lucky and one good Lighting-Enhanced AOE Attack finishes off most of the Team, at which point it becomes much easier for the God of Thunder.

- Both Sides had their fair share of Countering each-other's Points, though xZone did it on a much more detailed, brutal basis, not letting even the slightest hyperbole statement pass by (Yes, Punching Miles away Feat, I am looking directly at You). But Lan made some wonderful Comebacks as well.

Agreed on both accounts: Both made some great arguments and counters, but i feel that xZone relied less on scalling and more on actual feats, and proved that Thor would be able to take them out, long before they do.

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#422 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#423 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#424 Posted by DarkPsychicLord_Prime (4084 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: No problem, i greatly enjoyed the debate from both of you @lan_fan

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#425 Posted by ourmanuel (11388 posts) - - Show Bio

This wasn’t supposed to go down this way.

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#426 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#427 Posted by ourmanuel (11388 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: I’m too lazy to read your last post. I’ll try in half a day.

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#428 Posted by JSDoctor (1632 posts) - - Show Bio

First of all, congrats to you both on what was a really enjoyable and respectful CaV to read. I'm going to have to give my vote to @xzone, though @lan_fan also made some excellent arguments.

Ultimately, I think that this comes down to two reasons.

  1. For the trio to hurt Thor, they would have to do so through blunt force. Not only did xzone show that they would have a very hard time putting him down, he also highlighted that this would force them to encounter his lightning cloak. XZone did a very good job of demonstrating the strength of this lightning, and I just wasn't convinced that the trio's limited energy durability was enough to tank this without taking serious damage. It seemed like they would have to hurt themselves quite severely to do a limited amount of damage to Thor.
  2. The speed argument for the trio was convincing though not enough to win it. Some of the scaling to Superman was questionable, as XZone highlighted, and whilst I did believe by the end that there was a speed advantage for the team, there are three reasons why this wasn't enough for lan_fan to take the victory. First, XZone showed that Thor was still fast enough to react to and tag his opponents. Second, even if that wasn't the case, they illustrated that Thor's lightning cloak certainly would tag (and hurt them.) Thirdly, the speed just wasn't enough to outweigh my first reason, which is their difficulty in dealing damage to him without being hurt more themselves.

Once again though, well done to both of you on this solid CaV.

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#429 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: Thanks for the vote and for breaking down your answers

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#430 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#432 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for votes

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#433 Posted by DrPepperMan (6288 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, still got to read XZ's closer, and I'll vote off memory.

Also, since the CaV is over, I'd like to point out Faora dodged a bullrush from Superman while sitting down.

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#434 Posted by Lan_Fan (13300 posts) - - Show Bio

@drpepperman: I did show that in my opening, but I didn't mention she was sitting down.

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#435 Posted by Termination (126 posts) - - Show Bio

This was an amazing CaV, and I'm having a really difficult time choosing the winner.

I liked the main argument of the kryptonians lacking lightning durability from xZone, and I also found the points made about speed from Lan_Fan very convincing.

I can't say who I'd pick for better debating style. But as far as who I'm convinced would win after reading these arguments with all previous biases set aside, I'd lean towards Thor.

My vote goes to xZone, though I have new respect for MoS kryptonians after reading Lan_Fan's points.

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#436 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#437 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#439 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: @lan_fan:

An amazing, respectful CAV for both of you, of which I would like to thank for your effort. It was appreciated.

Personally, I think that 3 Kryptonians are too much for the son of Odin, and I see the fight going like how Lan Fan pointed out where they would team up and KO him how they did Superman.

With that being said... My vote goes to Xzone. He hammered the fact that Thor’s lightning will be the deciding factor, and I wasn’t convinced by Lan that the Kryptonians would no sell the lightning and keep on going. Xzone’s arguments were all based on logic and feats, whereas Lan’s were (IMO) based on what could be considered faulty scaling and possible lowballing. This isn’t an attack on Lan, but he was at a semi disadvantage with characters who do not have the amount of feats that Xzone’s character has. He tried to present his argument with scaling to a future Superman, which Xzone was having none of. I believe there was one part where LAN said that Flash’s best feat was keeping up with Supes, to of which Xzone countered him by saying how that is faulty scaling, and that takes away from the speed argument because Superman reacting to Flash is not as strong (if that makes sense).

Lan consistently tried to scale the Kryptonians to a fully adapted Superman, unfortunately, which isn’t allowed in this CAV. Xzone didn’t let him. Lan also tried to convince that Faora and Nam Ek no sold Clark’s HV, but Xzone did not allow it.

On a side note - Xzone. People claim that Clark is Mach 900 in travel speed, but somehow I’m not convinced of that (and Superman is my favorite). Those scenes were cut scenes and we cannot be 100% sure. In future arguments, I would bring up Superman bullrushing Zod in Smallville. Superman was not holding back, and was going all out, and he was not traveling nowhere near Mach 900. Just a thought.

Once again, thank you both for the CAV. Would love to see more from you guys in the future.

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#440 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_shazam0920: Thanks for the break-down and the vote. I’m saddened that I didn’t change your opinion on the battle itself, but thanks anyways

X

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#441 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#442 Posted by Kirkseven (2683 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll get back to this later.

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#443 Posted by Lan_Fan (13300 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_shazam0920:

Those scenes were cut scenes and we cannot be 100% sure

Actually we can, but okay.

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#444 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: I’m not saying it isn’t true, I’m just saying I’m not sure. I have the movie on Blu Ray and have seen it countless times. Which scene do I have to pay attention to and what do I look for?

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#445 Posted by ourmanuel (11388 posts) - - Show Bio

😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

Can’t believe this dude won

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#446 Posted by Lan_Fan (13300 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_shazam0920: After Superman destroyed the World Engine, he had to travel to the other side of the world. Superman showed up only 3 minutes after they got the signal that the other WR is destroyed and they said "Superman did it". I believe there's no major cut between that statement and when Superman arrived. That's not even counting Superman had to heal after taking the explosion from World Engine's destruction.

I already said all of this in my closing, so I think it's okay to say it again.

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#447 Posted by Lan_Fan (13300 posts) - - Show Bio
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#448 Posted by xZone (10334 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: @ourmanuel: Indeed, I haven’t won, not even close. There are a TON of votes left

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#449 Posted by ourmanuel (11388 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: @xzone: let’s not kid ourselves, the CaV is pretty much over

It was a good read tho

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#450 Posted by Lan_Fan (13300 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: Yeah, it'd be fine if you give your vote though.

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