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#202 Posted by ourmanuel (10518 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice counter from X

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#203 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: Will you vote when this CaV is done? Also, I accidentally flagged you when tried to turn the page, sorry.

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#204 Posted by ourmanuel (10518 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

@ourmanuel: Will you vote when this CaV is done? Also, I accidentally flagged you when tried to turn the page, sorry.

Depends on my mood.

I may or may not vote🤷🏾‍♂️

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#205 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: Okay then. Have you been following the debate, or you're just reading glimpse of it?

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#206 Posted by ourmanuel (10518 posts) - - Show Bio
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#207 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: You went from, "R.I.P. X" to "nice counter from X"

I must have screwed up badly, lol.

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#208 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (4137 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Nice X. You’re starting to see your experience when it comes to debating.

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#209 Edited by ourmanuel (10518 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: I mean she did some really nice counters.

Really proved why Thor is the Live Action Solo King

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#210 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: In my opinion, the counters are mostly bad, so wait for my next post!

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#211 Posted by ourmanuel (10518 posts) - - Show Bio
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#212 Posted by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: @lan_fan:They looked bad cause my formatting was crazy off... Fixed it mostly now, so it won't hurt your eyes as much (sorry for those who had to read it b4)

X

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#213 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: we’ll be the judge of that

Sure, what do you think about my 2nd post?

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#214 Posted by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: As an inside opinion I thought it was good, though obviously I had a lot of points I had to go through :p

X

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#215 Posted by ourmanuel (10518 posts) - - Show Bio
@lan_fan said:

Sure, what do you think about my 2nd post?

I think I’ll give my impressions at the end of the CaV

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#216 Posted by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

Sure, what do you think about my 2nd post?

I think I’ll give my impressions at the end of the CaV

Savage

X

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#217 Posted by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Nice X. You’re starting to see your experience when it comes to debating.

I appreciate it, though you read this before I finished the formatting *sighs* It should be a lot easier now

X

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#218 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: You've given your impression on our posts twice already, so I thought it was no problem, but okay.

@xzone said:
@ourmanuel said:
@lan_fan said:

Sure, what do you think about my 2nd post?

I think I’ll give my impressions at the end of the CaV

Savage

X

Wow, ikr? Absolutely mad lad! What a maverick, am I rite?

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#220 Posted by ourmanuel (10518 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

@ourmanuel: You've given your impression on our posts twice already, so I thought it was no problem, but okay.

@xzone said:
@ourmanuel said:
@lan_fan said:

Sure, what do you think about my 2nd post?

I think I’ll give my impressions at the end of the CaV

Savage

X

Wow, ikr? Absolutely mad lad! What a maverick, am I rite?

Yes, I do see myself as somewhat of a maverick....

🥴🥴

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#222 Posted by Nucleon (2860 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: I expected nothing less. =)

Online
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#223 Posted by Nucleon (2860 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

@empressofdread: Thanks, yo ^_^

This legit took me 16 hours, I did it part by part though (not all at once).

And it shows. I appreciate the efforts you guys are putting into this. I'm not on that level yet, that's for sure!

Online
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#224 Posted by Nucleon (2860 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, and guys I just love the civility. That's a big "plus" in my book.

Online
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#225 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon: I'm glad you like it ^_^

I think you're more than capable of doing stuff like this if you have the time.

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#226 Posted by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio
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#227 Posted by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#228 Posted by Rajjar (1768 posts) - - Show Bio

I like @lan_fan with the Fail-Safe plan, since I think it is a smart way to make concessions but at the same time make arguments in context of the concessions themselves.

I like @xzone sign-posting so meticulously. That is pretty cool as it speaks to the organization of your counters.

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#229 Edited by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

CLOSING

Kryptonians
Kryptonians

Countering your counters

Tanking lightning counter:

Well, It's called Split-Durability. Basically, these durability sets are split because in comics and movies these different durability types often don't go as you might think, like Wonder Woman for example. She may be extremely durable to most things, but a bullet (piercing damage) can still kill her. In the same way, if Kryptonians don't have energy durability feats, then we assume the lightning should one shot them due to having no feats to suggest otherwise.

Yes, split durability. Durability is split into 3; blunt, piercing, and temperature (heat or cold). The reason why energy durability is different from blunt is because most energy attacks contains heat. I don't need an actual energy durability feat, since the term should not even exist.

My team not only have the feats of taking the impact of the lightning, but also the temperature. So in theory, they should be able to take Thor's lightning as well. You're gonna argue that they can't, but okay. It should be noted that I'm not even close to giving up the fact that Thor wouldn't tag these guys besides by his fodder electricity cloak which hasn't done anything noteworthy.

Well, Thor's lightning attacks do come from Heat, like here, where Thor's lightning barely moves Malekith, but severely burns him (showing this is a energy/heat based attack, not blunt as my opponent is saying

I never said otherwise. In fact I was saying the same thing. It's just Thor's lightning heat is not even impressive without baselessly scaling it to regular lightning. I mean, burning someone's face isn't that impressive. At least not even close to be as impressive as melting a huge steel beam in less than a second.

Literally a fire can burn someone's face, and kryptonians (most notably Faora and Superman) could no sold them. Isn't looking good for your heat argument. The feats you've shown so far isn't enough.

Well for one, if we are gonna talk about destructive power of a HV ray that hit them for about two seconds it's not much damage (lasted about 1 second on Faora and 1-2 on Nam) to prove they can survive Thor's attacks at all.

And how long did it take for Superman's heat vision to melt the metal beam? Like 1.5 seconds or less.

I'm trying to say that they can take Thor's lightning heat, which I still don't see the problem. They've taken something hotter by feats with only minor pain. The destructive power of the lightning is another story.

For Two, heat wise Thor's lightning bolts from the sky should be as hot as lightning which as you already noted is>HV

No, it shouldn't. Thor's lightning heat is still limited to his feats only. You can't go from saying it can burn someone's face, to it's hotter than the surface of the sun just like that.

Destructive wise even Thor's cloak>>the damage of 1-2 seconds from HV (and this HV made Faora/Nam yell in pain)

True, but that's no longer in the realm of energy durability, they've taken striking attacks that's on par with Thor's lightning. So basically, I've proven they can take the heat, I've proven they can take its striking (which is what you're arguing). They can take the lightning.

Also, there's no way Thor can tag them with lightning more than 2 seconds, before getting blindsided by the others.

It's also worth mentioning that Clark was obviously not using his most powerful HV against Faora and Nam because when he melted that steel his eyes were in pain afterwards, unlike against Faora and Nam. Similar to how Sasuke's Eyes vary in power, and the further he pushes himself the more pain, hence we can see the obvious difference when he's trying harder and not

What is this? Clark was screaming in pain the whole time he HV'd Faora and Nam. No offense, but you make this stuff up.

Except for when Thor broke out of a cage meant to contain the Hulk

And? How would I suppose to believe that when Hulk can damage vibranium, the strongest metal on earth. Now they're gonna contain Hulk and Thor with a glass? Ridiculous. I'm not buying that, no one should.

Also, that casual hit by Clark is no where near Thor's hit against Hulk, anyone without bias can see this

Really? Superman could casually punch Nam-Ek miles away and do this.

Definitely more impressive than Thor's
Definitely more impressive than Thor's

Hulk weighs more, he went farther than Arthur, and there was more drag/resistance from the Alien Metal walls he was shredding through, so yeah, his lightning being 5-10x this is insane

Featless alien metal. I don't see how this is even relevant to people that can take hits from Superman, the dude that punches at supersonic speed and one-shotted World Engine. The thing has actual feats.

Arguably this is the weakest Hulk has ever been, probably due to his anger level. Thor's striking with Mjolnir against Hulk is somehow worse than this random war hammer.

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That's is way less impressive than this

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The initial blast radius is what I'm talking about, and it's also worth noting this ice has been hardening for thousands of years in far below zero conditions (from the look of the weather)

It's not that impressive compared to Superman who could destroy a mountain's top on accident. Kryptonians have taken his attacks, not just his accidental fall.

Dodging lightning:

Should be noted that this isn't my real argument or strategy, just a fail safe. So far I don't see anything that suggests Thor can even aim and shoot lightning at them.

Zod is flying to space right? Might I remind you that Zod is Semi-Adaptedin this fight, so those feats have no baring in this debate (and thats highballed to high heaven).

The only thing that he got from his full adaptation is his flight. Nothing changed about his actual speed. Zod has matched Superman's flight before his adaptation as I showed in my opening. Basically this feat is just a final nail in the coffin that confirms Zod can fight at that speed as well.

When exactly did Zod react to mach 500 speeds at all? Let alone Pre-fully adapted.

Fighting on par with Superman who has that speed. I'm saying Zod should absolutely be scaled from Superman's speed.

Kryptonians don't get a power boost by adapting, they only got flight and enhanced sense. If that wasn't the case then Faora and Nam-Ek should not have been able to even match Superman in combat since Superman was fully adapted since he was a child.

No, actually QS is a lot faster than that. Also, Clark clearly does not travel at triple digit speeds consistently in combat, if at ALL.

What? He caught one bullet, and blitz the gun from the dude. Nothing about that is above mach 2.

Clark clearly does not travel at triple digit speeds consistently in combat, if at ALL

Why wouldn't he use his flight speed in combat? Because of visual evidence? I can show you based on visual evidence that Thor's lightning doesn't move above mach 10.

Here's Thor's lightning taking more than 1 second to reach that disance
Here's Thor's lightning taking more than 1 second to reach that disance

Superman's casual flight speed has done better.

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I'm not really arguing that Thor's lightning speed is below mach 10, but according to your own logic, they sometimes do. Plus, I'm also arguing that Superman's flight speed is the same as his perception speed.

Before you mention mach 200 Mjolnir, I gotta point out that that is a massive one time outlier feat for Mjolnir. 3 digits mach speed flight feat has been performed 4 times..

  • Superman moved from the Canadian Arctic to the African Savannas in seconds
  • Superman reached Mexico from US in a few seconds from US to save a girl from a burning house right after he heard the news
  • The traveling half the world thing we've been talking about.
  • Zod blitzing Superman to orbit.

Also also, I'm talking about Thor reacting to the Kryptonians, so talking about their reaction speeds is moot here

I'm talking about how they can react to Thor's lightning.

Countering Thor's speed arguments:

How long do you think it takes QS to get back to normal speed anyways? He went from normal speed to unloading Klaw's gun in less than half a second, so I don't see how that holds any baring here

I don't know, but he didn't even appear on screen until after Thor threw Mjolnir. 2 seconds, from the looks of it in slow motion.

Oh man, and QS can't even travel that fast, so Thor reacting to his running speed doesn't matter that much. You're acting like he caught QS or something.

You can clearly see here Thor Throw's Mjolnir before QS turns the corner. Nice try though

Except we can see that Quicksilver wasn't on the stair either. According to how he slowed down when he turned, how everything on that part of the scene was all dark, and seeing where Quicksilver came out. It's fair to say that all of that happened when QS was turning.

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If not that, then it can simply be concluded that Thor merely predicted QS' movement, which shouldn't be that hard, considering that way was the only way QS could move forward. We can also clearly see that Quicksilver slowed down, which bought Thor a lot of times.

Except for the fact that the only reason the Ultron bot was moving was because Thor was pushing him with his left arm while preparing to strike with Mjolnir. Look closely, this is a perfect example of Thor blitzing an opponent without them being able to react at all

Nope, Thor's hand didn't touch him at all. He was doing his usual hammer slam gesture.

The exact same movement, just in flight
The exact same movement, just in flight
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Ultron bot's left arm moved inward, lol. This is undeniable.

How is that counter attack?
How is that counter attack?

Of course that's counter attack. Hulk wasn't trying to react to Thor, he was trying to attack Thor, but got outspeed and attacked instead. If you ever played a fightning game, that's the definition of counter attack.

Thor is surely not outspeeding kryptonians in combat.

Stabbing arguments:

Sorry, you lost me as to how this is the same metal as the metal for their ships. And this wasn't the part I disagreed with, It was that the material was "re-entry proof" that I disagreed with, and I see you have conceded that point, so I accept that concession.

Yes, I dropped that point for another argument that's far better. Kryptonian armor has much better feats than its ship. Like, Superman could destroy their ship with casual punch, but couldn't destroy their military armor with his bullrush punches. At least hardness wise, which is important to stabbing, it's enough to pierce Thor who doesn't have anything but anti feats to piercing attacks.

About Hela's weapons. The ones that were destroyed by an Ak were from the earth of Asgard, very different from the ones she summoned out of thin air

I don't really know. Piercing wise it didn't seem any less impressive, which is the whole point of my argument. It could easily pierce Surtur whose skin seems harder than regular Asgardians.

My conclusion remains the same. Thor has never taken a piercing attack launched at 2 digit mach speed, which Faora has performed with her punches.

Tanking/dodging lightning:

They still can't hope to survive anything like this, considering, like I've already said, and you haven't been able to counter, they simply lack the feats to survive it.

Not really, your arguments mostly revolve around the assumption that my characters need energy durability feats to take Thor's lightning. As I claimed earlier, they can take the impact (tanking punches from Superman), and they can take the heat of the lightning (surviving Superman's heat vision and re-entry).

Casual attack from Thor he can do instantaneously, and none of the Kryptonians can dodge or tank this

Yeah, he still needed to jump and punch the ground in order to do so. Ain't no way he's doing that when there are 3 bloodlusted kryptonians trying to blitz him at all time.

My nuke arguments:

So because his comic counterpart struggled with radiation it now means that was the only thing that affected Clark? That has less than nothing to do with this

Nope, I'm just making a comparison on why exactly Superman ended up looking like this in that scene. Heat, nor impact could cause something like that, logically. There's really no other logical explanation other than the radiation harming him.

My comparison to his comic counterpart just shows that's exactly how people like Superman, who has the power to absorb radiation looks like when they get exposed by a nuclear bomb. It's basically just a final nail to the coffin.

I could just as easily bring up Superman comics that state Kryptonians are weak to magic and say Stormbreaker one shots. These are movie versions, not comic versions

No:

  • There's no comparison that can be made for that at all.
  • If you're trying to imply that Thor's lightning is magical, then there goes your argument of scaling Thor's lightning speed to regular lightning.

That's all fine and nice for comic Superman, but no such event happened in the movie, and that is the version we are debating here.

What are you talking about? Superman getting nuked happened in the movie, and it caused the same effect as in the both iterations. The comic just provides more context to that by stating it instead of just giving visual evidence like in the movie. But still, the visual evidence can still be found in the movie alone.

It's not a nice feat for comic Superman, it can be used to lowball him without paying attention to the context which is what you're doing here.

Prove the amount of damage took from the blast to radiation.

For the starter, it was the thing that got him looking like that in the first place.

Also, it was shown that someone like Doomsday who gets empowered by harmful radiations could tank it. I mean, Doomsday is more powerful than Superman, but to the point that one nearly died from something when the other one no sold it? I don't think their physicality are that much different than each other, other than their body's response to harmful radiations.

Like I said, a much powerful version of Superman who should be able to tank the nuke's destructive capability with ease was injured by its radiation to the point that he looked like DCEU Superman after it, despite the huge durability gap.

I'd also like to mention that Superman could take this kind of explosion unscratched, he didn't even bleed, or received any form of burn injury.

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Prove how much he was weakened by kryptonite

For the starter, he still had his scar from kryptonite that he got from Batman.

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Superman also went from easily being knocked out by Doomsday

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To taking hits from a massively amped Doomsday while staying conscious.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Left to right

I say he's done much better against amped Doomsday than he was against unamped version of him. Even ignoring that WW is there.And I'm talking about this. Flash was dodging and moving around Clark like an adult dodging a toddler, and this is when flash sucks at using his powers

Superman's strength arguments:

None of that changes the fact that he was pushing himself to the limit to hold up a small tower (we know this because of his facial expressions). As I already said before, I think this scene did not give him justice, but you can't just scale villains without realizing this crucial factor. This isn't me lowballing Superman, this is telling you to acknowledge that Superman in MOS and Superman in BvS and Jl are different in power levels, hence not scaleable for Zod or his Kryptonian allies

I just explained basically why the scene isn't about strength, which you apparently can't disprove. When Superman's best feats in all category except for durability happened in MoS, I don't see why they're supposed to be different.

Care to quantify that?

For the starter, World Engine is bigger than most skyscrapers. Small mountain level from the looks of it.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
This thing is huge.

Average skyscrapers can weight more than 200.000 tons. This is ignoring the fact that World Engine is made from a much denser metal than regular skyscrapers which should make it heavier.

Phantom Zone could absorb something this heavy, yet Superman could overpower its gravitational pull.

Better feats, being far more experienced, and being able to fight far more powerful opponents, actually. Ahem

Not even close of having better feats other than durability.

  • Best speed feat: MoS, flying half the earth in less than 3 minutes, and being stated to be able to react to his own flight. Technically the best feat itself is from MoS.
  • Best strength feat: Overpowering Phantom Zone's gravitational pull in MoS. Tectonic also plate feat happened before BvS (this could also translate to durability).
  • Best striking feats: Destroying part of a mountain, and destroying World Engine in MoS. Since striking is usually speed * strength, obviously MoS has this one.

Seeing this, it should be clear that Superman doesn't get any boost in future movies. His best durability feat just coincidentally happened in MoS.

What do you even mean? I don't think the Star feat is valid for anything but energy/heat which is why I didn't even mention it.. The tectonic plate feat is even less valid, especially for scaling, and quite honestly, I expected better on this front from someone such as yourself

I can see you using the star feat in this same post, wtf. I don't see anything invalid with tectonic plate feat other than it being an outlier. I don't see what's so hard to understand. I'm saying Superman has better outlier feat than Thor.

My speed scaling:

Explaining why the scaling is legit, and why Superman's flight is consistently fast.

And I'm talking about this. Flash was dodging and moving around Clark like an adult dodging a toddler, and this is when flash sucks at using his powers

And? I'm talking about Clark perceiving Flash's running speed. If Flash can fight faster than he can run, then good for him.

Again, I'm not talking about how Superman could combat Flash. I'm ONLY talking about how Superman could perceive Flash's running speed.

We don't know how fast flash is

We know he can run as fast as Superman can fly. They both traveled at the same feat in JL.

plus Flash is still WAY faster than Clark

No, he doesn't seem to be even twice as fast. You're exaggerating.

also different movie with a very likely amped Clark (since this is better than anything he showed in MOS)

Nope, not better feats. It was shown that Superman can react to his own flight speed easily in both MoS (actual feats) and BvS (statement). This scene in JL basically just showed how it would apply in combat. Since Superman's fastest flight speed happened in MoS, technically his best speed feat happened there. Again, this is just showing how his power would apply in combat, coming from the perspective of slower characters.

ALSO also also, this is Clark's reaction speeds, what in the world does this have to do with Zod?

Hello, Zod fought at equal pace as Superman. Duh.

Once again, Note to the reader. Please realize that my opponent is trying to scale Zod, someone who fought an inexperienced, non-amped Clark, to someone who even when bad with his powers is dancing around an amped and more experienced Clark

Note to the reader, he's wrong, I'm just trying to prove that Superman's flight speed equals his perception speed. Yes, I don't see the problem of scaling Zod to some of Clark's lower tier feats :)

This simply shows that Clark is not constantly going at mach 900. This would be like me saying Mjolnir constantly goes at mach 200+

This is different, since it's just a one time outlier feat, that was proven wrong by feats like being unreliable to outfly a freaking dragon. Superman's flight speed on the other hand, doesn't have anything to be lowballed on.

You can't say they don't perform their top flight speed in combat when Zod bullrushed Superman at mach 500 speed, yet it didn't seem like he was moving faster than his normal speed in the fight, but they somehow ended up in space in less than 3 seconds.

Clearly not. Superman only goes that fast when he is building up speed, and to act like his combat flight speed is anywhere near that is simply silly.

No, you can clearly see that Zod didn't need to build up speed to take Superman to space. They performed this speed in combat. It just didn't seem that way so we can see their fight. It's not like they were moving particularly slow either, they were very fast, but slow enough that we can perceive it as a viewer, because it's a movie and they need to show the action.

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Note that Zod didn't fly particularly faster than his usual flight speed if we're strictly going based on visual evidence, but then seconds later they ended up in space. This is a proof that the visual evidence of their flight simply doesn't do their actual speed justice.

My opponent is using feats from an amped Clark against Flash, who is clearly still faster, to scale to Zod, when in reality Zod fought an inexperienced Clark with None of these reaction/combat speed feats

Again, not amped, and again, being slightly faster than Superman in combat (which is not what I'm arguing) is the absolute best feat for Flash.

When Superman and Zod fought each other, (the link will take you to a YouTube video). They had no problem reacting, and tagging each other during their insane flight speed. That's a combat speed feat on its own. Superman perceiving Flash is just a closer/clearer look to Superman's perspective.

Again, we don't know how fast Superman was flying there, we don't know who won, and Flash was stomping Clark in combat speed. How does this relate to Zod again?

Why wouldn't Superman use his flight speed in a race? Then everytime someone reacted to comic Flash for examplee, we can just pull bs like that "we don't know how fast Flash moved on that specific panel".

Flash was stomping what? He dodged Superman's attacks, and when he tried to counter attack, he got tagged and one-shotted. That's not stomping anyone in combat speed. In fact, Superman might have better combat speed, but Flash had better movement speed by a little.

Notice something important here? The guide only says he can break the sound barrier and that his reactions are equal to That speed. So actually, it's saying he has faster than sound reaction speeds, not necessarily as fast as mach 900 (a claim made by you and others on the vine), but as fast as creating a sonic boom

How does this work against me exactly? You know that mach 900 is swifter than the speed of sound, right? They technically didn't contradict the feats which I posted.

Yes, that would make sense, but the guidebook doesn't claim he is mach 900, does it

Why would the guidebook need to be that specific?

Guidebooks don't really matter to begin with, feats do

Both matters as long as the guidebook doesn't contradict the feats, I don't see why not. Especially that Superman has shown being able to react to his own flight speed twice by now.

My gameplan arguments/?

So incorrect. Mach 500? Are you mixing Adapted Zod and non-adapted Zod again? I'm noticing a pattern of mixing up amped Kryptonians and Non-amped ones

Being adapted doesn't really affect their speed, as shown Faora could easily react to Superman's blitz attempts. The only thing that it did to Zod is giving him flight. His combat speed, strength and durability remain the same throughout the movie.

Zod doesn't scale to Clark post JL, so this point is moot, again

Lol, he does.

Actually, it's very impressive because this shows Thor's combat speed, which is different from Thor's reaction speeds, but I'm happy you admit Thor can move at and fight at Mach Speeds Now

Now that I see the full fight (the link will take you to a YouTube video).

Again, like the case with Hulk, this was a counter attack. This doesn't really translate to Thor outspeeding Hela's reaction speed, but combat speed. The feat you posted for Hela is mainly a reaction speed to something very far away, and that's totally different than reacting to something in close range combat where people can maneuver their attacks and counter attack like Thor did.

This doesn't say much about Thor's movement speed.

Like the whole point of most of Thor's attacks is that he doesn't have to aim them, they are AOE based.

Well yeah, this one. I was talking about the lightning strike one.

2 points though

  • Thor needed to jump and slam the ground. That took way too much time against people this fast who would try to blitz him.
  • This type of AoE attack (the non-lightning strike one) doesn't have that much of destructive output. They can probably stunt the team, but that's it. Still highly unlikely that Thor would pull this one though

They don't require charging, or at least the majority of those don't (only one of them did)

Charging or not, they still took too much time. I don't know what Thor was doing during those 2 seconds, but he definitely needed to jump and do the arm gesture to call the lightning. When Thor jumps, my team can just blitz him out of the air, and boom, the attack is cancelled.

I've already shown (and you already admitted) that Thor can react to multi-mach speed enemies and even blitz those with mach reaction times, and these are no different. Thor Can React, but he doesn't even need to because his cloak will for him

  • Multi mach enemies? You mean enemies with multi-mach projectiles? That's different because that doesn't translate to their combat speed.
  • How many of them did Thor face at once anyway? 1? 2? My team is BY FAR faster than anyone Thor has fought, and there are 3 of them here ready to blitz Thor.
  • His cloak hasn't done anything, tbh. It like put down some fodders (some of them stood up again). That's less than enough to people who can survive the heat of re-entry and 5000 degree C heat vision. The impact of the the lightning cloak is laughable, not even worth mentioning, there's no way that can even disturb my team's movement or stopping their attacks.

This is a silly argument. For one, Thor's lightning did destroy those enemies. For Two, this is exactly like if someone were to say Diana can be one shot by an AK, but survived Ares lightning, hence the lightning is weak.

The difference is, your team doesn't have ANY TYPE of durability to speak of.

It's different durability types, and You Know this already, and now, so do the readers. You STILL have not provided any real energy durability feats for these characters, so they are getting one shot. No amount of low balling is going to change that.

Your assessment of split durability is incorrect though. I don't need a type of durability that doesn't exist.

Also, let's quickly entertain the idea of those Ak's one shotting these guys actually mattering. Asgardians have enhanced guns, and I see no reason why Skurge couldn't have amped his

Proof? What have these fodders done to make anyone think that? It's not like they ever had any impressive showing to begin with.

Well, we can see lightning destroying it, so the burden of proof would be on you to prove the lightning didn't actually destroy it

Obviously the lightning is destroying it, but what type of lightning and what did it destroy? We don't know. That's the movie's job to explain which it didn't. Again, you don't have proof that this is his lightning cloak either, so it doesn't matter a whole lot here since it's THE ONLY thing that can possibly tag my team.

The ship ignites in every spot the lightning is emitted. If this wasn't just from the lightning then we could expect some of the lightning strikes to do nothing because they missed a fuel line

We can't be sure, because we don't even know how the ship works.

But what can be we sure of? Thor's lightning has never done this. Not even Thor's biggest lightning created this SPECIFIC TYPE of explosion. Let alone his lightning cloak

No Caption Provided

This isn't mountain level? Each one of these leviathan were nearly as large as a building...Also, you asked for Thor's lightning making things explode, here you go.

You debunked yourself. It's building level.

Okay, I'll give you this one, but the fact that: it took one of the strongest lightning he ever created, took a solid 4 to 5 seconds to do, to a character got split in half by Iron Man's freaking missile. That should say a lot about Thor's capability to make things explode. Again, this doesn't fall inline with your claim of Thor's lightning cloak (weaker than these high-end lightning, obviously) creating massive explosions with ease.

Also, it could be just one of those ships that exploded.

Thor's lightning overcharges things and makes them explode all the time

Infinity stone?

  • First of all, it's unqualifiable.
  • Infinity stones create an explosion if destroyed, that's just how it works. As you can see (YouTube video)
  • Probably the stone could no longer take the heat, melted, and released a huge energy wave like mind gem did. The direct cause of the explosion itself isn't Thor's lightning

What? That's not even close to accurate.

There is a difference between stopping a 200-230 pound man and stopping a multi-thousand ton monster WITH momentum. The only reason I can see as to why Hulk was pushed back is because he had nothing to push against with his legs, he simply slid through the concrete

That's just how it is. You're trying to make it sound like Hulk's striking is impressive, and showed his strength feat instead. My example is just what's it's supposed to look in a much smaller scale, so whether Hulk's feat is more impressive or not, it's none of my concern.

You're trying to argue that Hulk's striking did all the work, therefore he should not have been pushed back nor even had the needs to something to push against his legs. If this was an impressive striking feat then then it should've been "Hulk punches the Leviathan and BAM! the leviathan is stopped or knocked back". This is not the case, unfortunately.

First off, LOL at using energy durability feats for Blunt feats, but if you insist:

Okay, let's see.

Survives the heat of a star

That's just pure heat, the impact shouldn't even matter.

Tanks a massive explosion from the Bifrost

What kind of explosion is that? Looks slow af. Obviously the impact wouldn't be that great if the spreading of the energy is slow like that. There was barely an impact, it looked like it just pushed Thor away slowly. Impressive heat feat though.

In a nearly dead state Thor tanks a massive explosion from the power stone

This would be awesome if Superman hasn't taken an explosion of that level (might be even higher), also while weakened by krypton's atmosphere. He was knocked out for a sec, but so did Thor. Thor might've been knocked out even longer, since Superman was seen on the other side of earth 3 minutes after that explosion.

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I don't have to remind you how big is the World Engine, so you can only imagine the impact of the explosion.

My team has harmed Superman, I showed this in my opening.

This is impressive stuffs though.... You should've shown it earlier.

Hulk actually one-shot a mountain in his first movie (deleted scene IIRC), but even without that his striking feats are still>>Faora, Nam, or Zod

Glacier, okay, but again, ice is MCU tends to be crumbly. Hulk made a punch, we don't know how much area he damaged with that, but then the cracks are spreading somehow. This Hulk also seemed to be extremely angry unlike when he pummeled Thor in Ragnarok (I talked about this in Thor's striking section).

Also, kryptonians are massively faster and there are 3 of them, so they can land MUCH more hits. The damage will add up, even with someone like Hulk who has better healing factor than Thor, eventually get overwhelmed by rapid punches from Thanos, not because he could one-shot Hulk, but because the damage was adding up, overwhelming his durability and healing factor.

Thor can react to Faora, he has a lightning cloak that she can't bypass, and he one shots with Stormbreaker

No he can't, not against Faora, not against 3 of them at once. They can ignore Thor's featless lightning cloak with their heat resistance heat.

He can't tag any of my team with Stormbreaker because:

  • They can dodge it
  • They can aim dodge it
  • They won't give Thor any chance to do it anyway, since they're bloodlusted.

Fail safe plan:

Literally none of them have "tanked" Superman's heat vision. Nam and Faora got hit for about a second and screamed in pain,

Like I said, minor pain. Not like it melted them or anything.

and one seconds of HV<<Thor's Cloak for goodness sake,

Thor's featless lightning cloak? Not even close.

let alone his lightning bolts.

Because it burnt someone's face? Get out.

Taking a beating from Clark has literally no standing in the realm of energy durability

Of course it has. This would help my team to take the impact of Thor's lightning.

Which ones of them survived re-entry exactly? Only one I can recall is fully adapted Zod, and Zod isn't fully adapted here, so that point is moot

Yeah, Zod, who didn't seem to get any sort of power boost after fully adapted besides being able to fly.

Also, their ship, which is less durable than durable than their armors by far.

My strategy:

It will, it's instantaneous, as I've already shown

Jumping and doing a hand gesture (most of the times hitting the ground), is hardly instantaneous. The moment Thor tries to jump, he will get blitzed by my team, cancelling the attack

Neither of them have energy durability feats on par with any of Thor's attacks

Again, they can take the impact, they can take the heat, so they can take Thor's lightning.

That's like saying since I have blunt durability feats I can now tank hits from 616 Thanos. There are different levels of durability, and they simply lack anywhere near what is needed

WTF? The heat and impact durability I've shown is way above Thor's lightning showings. Especially his lightning cloak, it's not even close.

Well, If Zod were actually mach 500, sure, but he's not. Also, I'll get to the strength section, dw

He is mach 500. The other kryptonians are like mach 20 to 50 since they can also react to Superman's bullrush/flight speed. Should be way higher, but I'm being generous here. Thor simply can't react to that, especially against 3 of them at once in close ranged combat, not even close. The feats you've shown of Thor reacting to mach 2 to mach 5 projectiles are not enough.

I've disproven your supposed speed arguments scaling from the Flash already

No, I don't even know what you're talking about, scaling Superman from Flash? I'm scaling Superman's reaction to his own flight speed in MoS, and scaling my team to Superman. It's been stated or shown that Superman can react to his own flight in all of his appearances.

and you still have no provided Energy durability feats even close to this level:

  • Assuming Thor's lightning directly created these explosions, which his high-end lightning strikes fail to perform.
  • Assuming this is his lightning cloak, which is the only thing that can possibly tag my team in combat.
  • I already addressed my energy durability arguments.

Countering your winning points:

Thor's reaction:

You said Faora was the least likely to be tagged and that she was the best at using her speed. Well, If that's the case, Thor should have no problem at all reacting to and one-shotting her and her team, considering she's the best you have speed-wise, as you said yourself.

Let's see....

  • That dude pulled the trigger 4 or 5 times in a span of a second. That's already way faster than the requirement for Thor to call his lightning strike or AoE attacks. I'm not saying a human is faster than Thor, but we're talking about someone jumping and slamming the ground vs someone moving their fingers.
  • Faora wasn't exactly trying to blitz them before they could react, since she knew bullets wouldn't do anything to her. She did blitz 5 soldiers before they could even pull a trigger though. Considering how fast can these soldiers pull the trigger, this is impressive.
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  • The soldier could only aim at Faora because she had to stop her momentum every time she strikes someone, and that's exactly when the he caught her.
  • Faora wasn't bloodlusted there and it was 3 against 1, Faora needing to stop each time she blitzes someone being the reason she got tagged. Thor doesn't have these advantages/conditions here.

Conclusion: Thor still can't tag any of them with his high-end lightning. In fact, this proves that Faora can blitz Thor from his AoE attack attempt if she wants to, and she's bloodlusted here.

Lightning latches off Thor's weapons, such as Stormbreaker, and will help make up for the speed Gap

This seems to be at the same level of his lightning cloak. Should not matter much. Certainly can't stop my team when they launch themselves at 2 to 3 digits mach speed. Hela isn't that heavy.

I see you didn't respond to my skill category, so I assume you concede here

Yup, Thor is DEFINITELY more skilled here, but that doesn't matter much when you're gonna get blitzed and ragdolled around like a ping pong ball.

Reacting to Thor? Really?:

You fully admitted in your own post that Thor's lightning strikes are at least mach 280. You then said it was no issue though because Zod has mach 500 reaction times or something of that sort. First, you were referencing a fully-adapted Zod, which is not who's being debated atm. Second, that's an insane highball for even travel speed. Third, it's not applicable to combat speed. Fourth, you're assuming he constantly blitzes and combat's others at this speed. That has as much validity as Constant Mach 200+ Mjolnir

I already addressed all of this.

Thor's lightning is too fast, and it can't be aim-blocked if Thor doesn't make them expect an attack like this

His lightning, probably, but Thor himself? If you watch the whole scene, again: Thor needed to jump and do his usual arm gesture. When Thor try to jump like that, he'd get blitzed hard by my bloodlusted team.

None of your Kryptonians have energy durability feats capable of surviving let alone tanking Thor's casual lightning blasts. They will be one shot

I already addressed this as well. Not that Thor can ever tag my team with it either way.

Thor's strength

Here Thor swings Rocket's multi-ton ship like a toy

Part of the massive ring feat, but also doubles as an insane piercing durability feat

You can see Thor breaks the insane amount of Ice by moving the Skyscraper sized rings

Here Thor opens, and keeps open this massive Iris while being burned alive

Just a size perspective to see how insanely massive this thing is

Cool feat, but all of this happened in space which makes it hard to quantify, and coincidentally this is the only time Thor has notable strength feats. It's also interesting that somehow a space ship and a rope could produce and withstand this much force. I mean, if the movie thinks a space ship and a rope could do this, no wonder they think Thor (who's one of their most powerful character, physically) could do it as well.

Crushes Stark's Gauntlets like it's nothing while weakened by Dark Energy. This suit is made from a gold titanium alloy 4 times harder than steel. The Tensile strength of steel is 40,000 PSI, however If plated like Stark's armor it can be closer to 80,000 PSI. This means Thor is able to output 320,000 PSI with his fingertips, casually, while weakened, and this is just taking the materials as are, we could assume Stark's armor is more durable than a normal gold titanium alloy. So low-balling Phase One, weakened, casual Thor, with just his fingertips: 320,000 PSI

Impressive, but I've already shown how much force does Superman make when he flies based on his speed and phantom zone feats, and Faora who is the weakest member in my group could stop it with one hand.

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Nam-Ek could also directly over power Superman, who's capable of performing 4 digit tons strength with no effort as shown in my opening.

No Caption Provided

Thor's durability.

This feat alone is enough for Thor to survive at least 10-20 hits from Kryptonians, and they will never last that long hitting a guy with a lightning cloak that one-shots them

Agai, what you've shown for Hulk is strength feat, and not that impressive since these creatures are evidently very light despite their size, as I mentioned before. Also, Hulk is arguably nerfed in Ragnarok....

From this
From this
To this, with a supposedly weaker weapon from Thor
To this, with a supposedly weaker weapon from Thor

My team should be able to knock Thor out eventually with their rapid punishment. Thor wouldn't be able to fight back when he's ragdolled around like a ping pong ball.

Final conclusion to the battle

  • Thor would try to start the fight with his AoE attack, but would get blitzed out of it by my bloodlusted team (canceling the attack). It's way likelier for my team to get the first hit due to their ridiculously faster movement speed
Like this
Like this
  • Thor's fodder electricity cloak which has done nothing, but harming fodders (not even killing some of them), wouldn't even disrupt my my team's movement since their skin is impervious to heat from re-entry, and with their armor they could take the heat of the sun's surface for 2-3 seconds. Lightning cloak < re-entry <<<<< heat vision.
  • Once Thor is tagged, he'd get knocked around like a ping pong ball until he's KO'd or dead. Thor should not be able to fight his way out of this. His only chance of going out from this is lightning cloak, but it was shown to be deactivated when Thor is knocked around
Here, Thor's lightning getting deactivated when he's harmed and knocked down, this actually happened twice.
Here, Thor's lightning getting deactivated when he's harmed and knocked down, this actually happened twice.
  • My team could put Thor down with their rapid strikes, which will overcome Thor's not so impressive durability eventually. Faora could also just stab Thor, or they could just break Thor's neck.
  • IF SOMEHOW, Thor manages to land an AoE attack, which is highly unlikely, it'd probably just put Faora down (and MAYBE Nam-Ek). Zod would still solo with his durability, and speed scaling from Superman. Still highly unlikely that this would happen, probably like 1/10 or 2/10, and even then it would still be possible for my team to win.

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#231 Posted by RampageTheFirst (7331 posts) - - Show Bio
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#232 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25791 posts) - - Show Bio
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#233 Posted by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

We’re in the EndGame now

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#234 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

@rampagethefirst: Ahahah, you probably haven't read it though. Thanks, either way.

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#235 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio
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#236 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4471 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: Nice counters , as always !!!!

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#237 Posted by RampageTheFirst (7331 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: I've skimmed through most of the points, and from what I can tell, your time and effort has definitely paid off. I'm honestly too lazy to read through the whole post, I feel bad for xZone lmao.

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#238 Edited by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

First facepalm at Clark Punching Nam “miles” away, but I’ll be closing soon, gl

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#239 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: Nice counters , as always !!!!

I hope you're not joking like always, hehehe. Thanks.

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#240 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: I've skimmed through most of the points, and from what I can tell, your time and effort has definitely paid off. I'm honestly too lazy to read through the whole post, I feel bad for xZone lmao.

Yeah, I mean... that's a lot to take in.

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#241 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25791 posts) - - Show Bio
@lan_fan said:.
@xzone said:

We’re in the EndGame now

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I see what you did there...

I'm guessing this is about Taylor Swift and nothing else.

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#242 Edited by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

@rampagethefirst: Don’t feel bad, or at least not for me. I recommend you read his entire post.. He’s gonna need it

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#243 Edited by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: Btw, I really didn’t want to have to counter everything here, but I think I’m gonna have to cause you made.. some very Bold statements that I simply can’t let stay. My closer has been ready for a while, but I’m gonna have to do rebuttals here. Expect my post in the next week at the latest, but more than likely 1-2 days

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#244 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Yeah, I know. That's why I kinda feel bad. I make too many claims you need to debunk.

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#245 Posted by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: I mean, it’s ok, and I kinda did it in my counters too, but I didn’t really mean to.. If we CAV again, we gotta be more careful lmao

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#246 Posted by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: Also, points to you for admitting I need to “debunk” your arguments. Are you conceding so soon?

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#247 Posted by Lan_Fan (12684 posts) - - Show Bio
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#248 Posted by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: “Too many claims you need to debunk” screenshotted and saved forever

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#250 Edited by xZone (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: Of course not, Thor is winning this easily, not even close, heck, lan already admitted his points were so bad I NEEDED to debunk them

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