Avatar image for xzone
#151 Posted by xZone (7547 posts) - - Show Bio

This Thor wank makes me want to curl up into a ball for the next 2 years.

Battle forums are right over there, go complain

X

Avatar image for red_ruby_petal
#152 Posted by Red_Ruby_Petal (7139 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: There should be a rule where viners need to type 3 paragraph essays on why this person wins on MCU/DCEU CAVs considering how toxic it is.

Online
Avatar image for xzone
#153 Posted by xZone (7547 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for red_ruby_petal
#154 Posted by Red_Ruby_Petal (7139 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Anyways you can consider which votes will count and which doesn't.

Online
Avatar image for _kingoflatveria
#155 Posted by _KingofLatveria (17928 posts) - - Show Bio

tag

Avatar image for kirkseven
#156 Posted by Kirkseven (1832 posts) - - Show Bio

Very interesting.

T4v

Avatar image for lan_fan
#157 Edited by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio

Rebuttals:

Countering your false analysis and claims about Thor's feats:

Energy durability arguments

Lightning Manipulation: Here's where things get Really ugly for the Kryptonians. Unfortunately for them, they have no energy durability feats to speak of, and also unfortunately for them, thats Thor's go to attack.

Hmm, sure, but they were never shown to be vulnerable to it. Thor's lightning mostly generates great striking power, but that's it. At least that's the thing that makes the lightning destructive. I don't see what differentiate tanking the lightning itself, from tanking a punch that has feats on the lightning's destructive capability level. This is unless you can prove that Thor's lightning has anything special to it other than having great striking power. Different case with let's say Iron Man's repulsor beam, its destructive capability mostly came from its heat, so then characters would need things other than normal blunt force durability to take it.

Before you mention the heat, Faora and Nam-Ek had taken Superman's heat vision with just minor pain. I think Superman's heat vision has better heat feats than Thor's. I know lightning should be hotter than the surface of the sun, btw. I just don't think Thor's lightning has much heat feats to compare with Superman's HV, and that's fact.

My team may not have actual feats of resisting lightning, but seeing what actually makes Thor's lightning destructive, they should have what it takes to survive them.

Something I found weird about how you determine these feats

As I've already shown above, Thor's casual lightning blasts are 5-10x stronger than Thor's concentrated Mjolnir Strikes.

Yeah, but what's impressive about that? I mean, all of Mjolnir's high-end striking feats came with lightning (especially if not thrown). Visual evidence showed that Thor didn't use his lightning to amp Mjolnir when he tried to destroy the bridge. My conclusion from this, is just Thor's mjolnir swing is not that strong, and the bridge isn't that durable. The only thing we can scale this from, is that feat where Thor launched Hulk with a war hammer, but that's honestly not saying much. Superman's casual punch to Aquaman has feat on this level already. My team members have taken better attempts from Superman.

Here you can see Thor destroying a City block level of Jotunheim with ease.

It's not that impressive.... Jotunheim's land was very thin and crumbly. (The link will take you to a YouTube video)

Although Thor also uses this form of lightning. Lightning drawn directly from the sky, hence 1/3 the speed of light, and too fast to dodge

This is what I found from my research about lightning

According to the University Corporatiom for Atmospheric Research:“The leader travels at 220,000 kilometers (136,000 miles) per hour, the pauses between steps take 50 millionths of a second, the return stroke moves at over 100 million kilometers (62 million miles) per hour, and all subsequent strokes are so fast the eye sees a single flickering lightning bolt.

Taken from Quora since I don't know jackshit about lightning. Basically the lightning that's travelling downwards is only mach 280+, and the return stroke it the thing that can travel 1/3rd the speed of light. So my team technically don't need to react to 1/3rd the speed of light. They need to move out the way before the return stroke comes. Reacting to mach 280 speed should be no problem to people that can travel at mach 500 and react to them in combat (only Zod).

That's a fail-safe argument though, in reality, they don't even need to to dodge mach 280 speed, they can aim dodge Thor's lightning. This is a common theme in combat. Street levelers can dodge bullets, not because they're faster than mach 2, but because they're way faster than their opponents. I don't think Thor is fast enough to track them to aim at my team properly (I will address this in speed section). I'm gonna address this further on "why Thor can't tag kryptonians section".

Here you can see Thor can easily send lightning in to his enemies, tearing them apart, and eventually making them explode.

Thor could only do that because he stabbed that dude, making some kind of lightning explosion inside his body. Not that Thor overloaded the dude until he exploded. Unless Thor does this without stabbing his opponent first, then I'd probably buy it. Maybe Thor can do it if he gets his hand on his opponents, but that's not happening here.

Here you can see Thor can adequately and easily track and aim at a much faster opponent: QS.

QS is honestly not that fast. He's like DCEU Wonder Woman level. His best feat is perceiving bullets (mach 2). That's nothing close to catching Superman's 3 digit mach bullrush with ease (which all of my team members have performed). He's definitely not faster than kryptonians.

Should also be noted that Quicksilver needed to stop his momentum a little bit to punch Steve and take a turn.

No Caption Provided

Yes, he massively slowed down when he took a turn. You can see by the time Cap fell down at normal speed, Quicksilver had not exited the frame yet. This should be more than enough for Thor to track QS and throw his hammer at him.

Quicksilver was also very far away and running in a straight line until the very last moment.

Here Thor is shown as the only one moving while both Iron-Man and Captain America were totally frozen

I mean, I can also see the the Ultron bot was moving as well.... I don't think Captain America was trying to do a quick move (most likely just casual move like trying to stand up), and Stark's combat/movement speed isn't that impressive to begin with.

Unless you think Ultron Bot has mach 2 movement speed or something, I don't think this is worth mentioning.

Keep in mind Stark has been reacting to mach 4.5 since his first movie, and even though that doesn't translate to Starks combat speed, per se, I believe it is worth mentioning

Cool reaction feats, but the tank was very far away, and a big thing like that can easily be tracked even if it moves fast. Stark's missiles which should be faster or at least as fast as that tank missiles needed like a solid second to reach the tank with the same distance. 1 second is way more than enough to dodge something like that. As you stated earlier, this doesn't translate to Iron Man's other feats.

Here Thor blitzes the Hulk

Okay, all 3 of you gifs show Thor counter-attacking Hulk. This isn't the same as blitzing, this is just combat. Hulk doesn't really have that much combat speed to speak of. If that was just Thor trying to punch him, not as a counter attack, I believe Hulk should easily be able to catch it as well, just like he caught the missiles.

Countering your counters to my claims:

My team:

We don't know the metal is the same metal that survived re-entry. That's the same as saying because a rocket made from metal on earth can survive re-entry, your every day military knife is gonna be made of the same stuff. Simply untrue. Now, if you have some kind of proof for that being the exact same metal, I'd love to see it

Well, for a start, it looks exactly like the stuff that made their armor, especially their gloves. It's worth mentioning that Zod stabbed Jor-El who was wearing an armor with a similar looking weapon, but this could be because there are some gaps on his stomach are which I can't confirmed whether it's actually protected or not. Regardless, the sharp thing came in package with the glove, so it makes sense that it's made from the same thing. The same can be said for Faora as well.

Here is Zod stabbing Jor-El
Here is Zod stabbing Jor-El

Should also be noted that Krypton is a massive planet, and has gravity that would crush normal people and their stuffs (which is why terraforming earth into krypton would've killed everyone and destroyed everything). So it makes sense that all of their stuffs need to be somewhat metallic and strong in order to not get destroyed by the gravity.

Again, the weapon itself isn't important, it's about the force behind it. Hela is nice example of this, her weapons could pierce Thor because it was launched in the speed of sound, even though evidently it's made from something that can be destroyed by AK-47.(the link will take you to YouTube).

This is no where near the energy durability feat required to survive Thor's casual lightning strikes, let alone his serious ones

It's about similar to Thor's jotunheim feats. Thor's seems to be more impressive because Jotunheinheim's land was thin and crumbly as I explained earlier.

Your Superman lowballing:

Prove it was only due to the radiation?

Okay, the scene is a reference to 2 comic book stories. One is from Superman/Wonder Woman #7, and the other is from Batman: The Dark Knight Returns (Earth-31). You see, both of them got nuked and it was the exact same effect.

Both of them have tanked things more destructive than a nuke, obviously. If you're not convinced enough, New 52 Superman explained that it got him like that because his cells were absorbing too much radiation from the nuclear bomb.

For context, New 52 Superman was already injured badly from his fight with Zod and Faora.
For context, New 52 Superman was already injured badly from his fight with Zod and Faora.

Note that nuke didn't damage Superman's body more than it did to his counterparts who are above planetary level. This should prove that all of them (including DCEU version) was more than capable to took the impact of the nuke. It was just the radiation that harmed them, because their cells absorb radiation.

Should also be noted that I'm not claiming DCEU Superman is planetary, I'm just saying that he wasn't more damaged than his more powerful counterparts who should be able to tank the impact of the nuke easily. Logically he was harmed by the impact and heat, the explosion would've harmed him more, but no.

He also wasn't just "harmed" he was nearly dead

Well yeah, but not due to the impact. Other than the radiation harming him, he didn't even bleed from that. It should be noted that Superman hasn't healed from being exposed by kryptonite, taken vicious beating from Batman and Doomsday ( where he was knocked out at multiple occasions).

You can see how small this portion of the oil rig is, yet at maximum effort he can barely hold it up

Context:

  • This isn't really about strength. Superman was balancing the force so the metal that he was holding (the one that's connected to the oil rig), and the platform/foundation (the thing that he stood on) didn't crumble. This is to hold the rig to buy time for the helicopters to leave, which he did.
  • This is the first time Superman actually tried to use his super strength properly. He had been holding back all his life. So obviously balancing his strength was a hard thing to do for him at that moment.
  • The angle actually made it impossible to hold (because it would've crumbled either way). Basically Clark tried his hardest to achieve the impossible.

Superman never really showed anything near that level in MOS

This is simply false. Superman's outrunning phantom zone feat is way more impressive than the ship feat. The phantom zone managed to pull the whole World Engine, and destroyed it with it's gravitational pull. Superman basically needed to produce more force than that in order to outrun it.

There's also nothing that indicate Superman got any amp in BvS.

Did you actually just bring the tectonic plate feat in to a CAV? I'll explain why this isn't valid, but I shouldn't have to. We never saw this feat on screen, It is a massive outlier if it's true, and if it is true we have no idea at all how it was accomplished. This feat has less standing than Thor taking the full force of a star for crying out loud.

Fair enough. Although if you're willing to accept this feat, I will argue that tectonic plate feat is more impressive than Thor's full force of a star feat.

Actually, Flash was reacting to Superman. Superman was the one attacking the flash, not the other way around.

I'm talking about this.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

As you can see, Superman was reacting, and actively tracking a running Flash with his super perspective speed. Since Flash can run as fast as Superman can fly. This proves that Superman can perceive his own flight speed, which is an INSANE perception speed.

Despite the popular belief, Superman's best speed feats came from MoS where he traveled half the globe in less than 3 minutes. He proved than he can freely react and maneuver in his high flight speed in MoS.

No Caption Provided

Basically the statement in BvS and feats in JL are just further confirmation that Superman indeed can react to his own flight. So there are 3 legit proofs that this is the case.

Flash was clearly far, far faster than Clark

No, I mean, his best feats is actually racing with Superman. Only going by implication, we can be sure that Flash is at least hypersonic because he needs his suit to protect him from heat that's caused by moving at hypersonic speed. Other than that, his feats aren't even comparable to Superman's, unless you want to count his lightspeed statement on Suicide Squad.

Superman never did anything near this level in MOS, but now we want to scale old villains to this? I don't think that's fair especially when most believe the mother box amped Clark immensely.

As I stated in my original post, it's stated by canon that Superman's reflex is as fast as his flight. I realized didn't post the scan, but there you go.

Taken from official analysis in Batman v. Superman that you can get if you buy BvS Ultimate Edition DVD.
Taken from official analysis in Batman v. Superman that you can get if you buy BvS Ultimate Edition DVD.

Which is again just confirmed in JL. Considering that Superman's best flight speed came from MoS (by far), I think it's fair. It's not new feats, it's just reconfirming what has been established in the past.

So Clark can react to flash, and Zod can react/punch superman, and flash can run as fast as superman can fly, hence Zod is how fast exactly? Flawed all around here

What is so hard to understand? Cap, Bucky and T'Challa could tag and react to each other. How? Their speeds are at the same ballpark, obviously. That's the argument I'm trying to make with Zod, Superman, and Flash. They can perceive each other and engage in combat as fast as Superman's 3 digits flight speed.

If you're wondering why I think DCEU Zod would beat MCU Thor in other threads, this is why.

IIRC, those were special effects meant to show them fighting at mach speeds, not every hit was creating a shockwave due to their strength.

Uhmm, excuse me, force = speed * mass. So if a strike is launched at a very high speed, it'd automatically create a very high destructive output.

It should be noted that mass is most of the times associated with strength (despite being wrong), hence why characters like Hulk can hit very hard despite being relatively slow.

Why my team would win:

Why Thor's not fast enough to react to their attacks:

As I addressed earlier, both Quicksilver feat, and outspeeding Iron Man feat aren't impressive enough for Thor to react to kryptonians. Not even close, according to my opener, my team are like 10-20 times faster than that in combat due to their perception speed. One of them being able to launch himself at mach 500.

Now for Thor's bullet timing feats. Bullets are mach 2 speed, if I'm correct, again that's not even close for Thor to react at all. I have more than this though. Reaction speed can only get you so far in an actual combat, especially reacting to projectiles like Thor did as projectiles are easily predictable and travel at straight line. In combat with people who are way faster than those projectiles, Thor has no chance to keep up.

Here's why:

  • Like I said, kryptonians are like 10-20 times faster than anything Thor has reacted to (Zod is even far faster due to his direct speed).
  • Unlike projectiles, people in combat wouldn't be attacking from a straight line, they'd maneuver around Thor and hitting him from different angles. They can attack with variety of moves that can't simply be countered by blocking. Most importantly, their attacks will be in close range, so it'll be way harder to react to.
  • Hard enough for Thor to react to one of them in combat, now there are 3 of them who are going to attack Thor from different angles. Even IF Thor could perceive one of them, the other 2 would easily blindside Thor from other angles that's out of Thor's vision.

Conclusion: Reaction speed isn't enough to keep up with people in combat, like blocking their attacks for example, especially when it's 3 against 1, and all of them are at least 10-20 times faster than anything your character has reacted to. Also, while bloodlusted.

Why Thor is not fast enough to tag them:

Here Thor blitzes Hela with ease

Here Hela reacts to machine gun fire, and this is while she is fighting an entire army of asgardians, so Thor blitzing her is very impressive

I mean, you already showed Thor's bullet timing feats anyway. Not worth mentioning if you think about it, since basically Thor blitzed someone with similar speed to him with a freaking lightning attack. Not surprised at all.

Now I'm gonna explain why Thor can't tag my team with his high-end lightning attacks. Simple, I don't think Thor is fast enough to track their movement, aim his lightning properly, and then doing his usual hand gesture/jump to summon lightning accurately.

I believe Thor needs to aim his lightning strike and lightning punches, right? Yeah, it's not happening, tracking one kryptonian would be hard enough, so he moment he tried to do so, he'd get blindsided by the other members. It's way, way too slow, it's not even funny.

Let's see all of Thor's high-end lightning attacks

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
I forgot to add Thor's Sokovia feat, but it's the same thing.

All of them require Thor to charge his lightning first, mostly by jumping and then doing the hand gesture to the ground or in a punch to release his lightning. All of them took at LEAST 2-3 seconds. This is without Thor having to tag a massively faster opponent than he is, obviously it's easier to aim at fodders.

Good luck doing that against 3 bloodlusted kryptonians, all can just do this the moment Thor tried to jump or charge his lightning or whatever:

No Caption Provided

All of them can perform this to Thor. Why? Because Nam-Ek is actually the slowest one in the group, and Thor is nowhere near as fast as Superman in movement speed. They're bloodlusted here, so they won't be giving Thor any chance to do anything until Thor's dead.

Thor's AoE attack took even longer to charge, that one took like 5 seconds. This is the only case where Thor wouldn't need to aim his lightning, but this also took way too much time. Basically every time Thor tries to do anything major, my bloodlusted team will just blitz him out of it.

Now with that being said, I think Thor can tag them with his passive lightning cloak, but that's it. They should be able to tank this one with no problem (explanation in the next section).

Why Thor can't harm my team:

First of all, he'll have hard time perceiving three of them at once, so it's unlikely that Thor can tag them with his high end lightning attack (as explained above).

Basically Thor's only chance to tag them is with his passive lightning cloak. I'm talking about the lightning that automatically protects his body without him needing consciously aiming at his opponent. This is bad news for Thor because his passive lightning cloak is not that strong at all.

No Caption Provided

Fodders that was put down by AK-47 stood up from Thor's casual passive lightning cloak. It's worth noting that other than scaling it with Thor's high-end lightning attack that required him to charge and aim at his opponents, this passive lightning cloak barely has feats. Either way, its stand alone feats don't have any striking nor heat feat that's capable of even hurting my team.

Before you're claiming that this is lightning cloak's doing:

No Caption Provided

It's kinda iffy because we actually don't know what Thor did inside that thing. Seems like he was charging his lightning as he sped up to the thing, so it's possible that it's one of those lightning punches or one of those aim-based high-end lightning that I mentioned earlier (which I think should not be able to tag my team), instead of his ordinary passive lightning cloak. Could be something like Captain Marvel did in the trailer.

It should also be noted that I've never seen Thor's lightning creating that kind of explosion in the past, so it's likely that the dropship's inside has some kind of highly explosives stuff inside it that Thor's lightning cloak simply triggered by being inside it.

I'm assuming and theorizing a lot here, because we really don't know what Thor did inside that thing. Also the fact that Thor's passive lightning cloak has an anti feats that don't lineup with that feat. I don't think even Thor's AoE attack at Wakanda was that powerful, the outriders should've been disintegrated if that was the case, and that required 5 seconds of charging.

Now for the charged/aimed lightning that you're so proud of. Honestly, it still doesn't have striking feats that tops Superman's striking feats like destroying the top of a mountain. At best it's equal

Why my team can put Thor down:

So basically it's just because Thor could take multiple punches from Hulk, it means he can take punishment from 3 kryptonians at once? Think again. Hulk's leviathan feat is honestly not that impressive, especially when scaled to him punching Thor.

I wanted to address this in my counter section, but I had to post a video for this.

Loading Video...

As you can see, Iron man blew up half of the thing, and its upper part (should be the heavy part) fell to a taxi and it did absolutely nothing. It didn't even damage it. This thing CANNOT be multi-thousands tons.

And you can if you play the earlier part when Hulk actually did the feat, Hulk's initial punch didn't stop the leviathan, it was Hulk's strength after the punch that stopped it. I mean, look at it this way, if Hulk's hand was open instead of closed (fisted), it would've made 0 difference. This is definitely lifting strength, not striking feats.

Just for context

This is the example of stopping something with a punch.

Superman stopping Superman's momentum with his striking
Superman stopping Superman's momentum with his striking

This is how stopping something with strength looks like. This is more like Hulk's feat.

Batman stops Superman's punch with his strength.
Batman stops Superman's punch with his strength.

Now that that's out of the way, here's why my team can put Thor down:

  • First of all, my team managed to knock out someone like Superman who tanked World Engine's gravity beam unharmed when it can flatten skyscrapers. Superman also tanked going through a mountain (destroying the top), completely unharmed. Hulk's striking feats aren't on this level yet.
  • Second, my team are way, way faster than Hulk, so they can deliver much more punishment in less time. Thor has never taken this much punishment, especially done in a very short period of time. Thor's body should definitely get overwhelmed.
  • Third, Faora still has her knife, which should at least be as hard as her armor. Combined with her striking, this would be deadly for someone that has nearly 0 piercing durability feat. Sure, Thor has pain resistance, but if Thor gets stabbed on his skull or heart, he's done.

Fail-safe plan:

So if somehow Thor managed to hit my team with his high-end lightning attacks. I'm certain it could put down Faora (although Faora is the less likeliest to get tagged because she's the best at using her speed). However, to people that can take a beating from Superman like nothing survived being bullrushed by Superman from orbit to earth, tanked Superman's heat vision with only minor pain, and easily survived re-entry.

Thor's high-end lightning would hurt, but it's not gonna enough to put them down. Even if somehow Nam-Ek goes down, there's no way Thor can put Zod down, especially when he still has massive speed advantage, and more than enough striking feats to put him down.

Countering your counter to my strategy

Unfortunately for your team, Superman didn't have a few things that make beating this team far easier:

To be fair, Superman also has key thing that made him hold his own. Speed.

A lightning cloak that both heals and defends him

Superman has healing if exposed by the sun, which he was at his fight in Metropolis. Also, passive lightning cloak is nowhere near strong enough to stop my team.

A weapon of the gods that can one shot them

If Thor can even track and aim at them, before getting blindsided again.

Massive AOE attacks that can KO them

Not nearly fast enough.

Better Damage Soak

Sure, Thor has better pain resistance than Superman. Fair.

Better Blunt Durability

Hell no, even Zod have shown better durability than Thor if we only consider our arguments so far.

Countering your strategy:

As soon as the initial blast is done

Assuming that will ever happen.

both Nam-ek and Faora will essentially be one shot

If somehow it happened, sure Faora would be one-shotted, but Nam-Ek? No.

unless you can show me energy durability feats on par with Thor's lightning of course

They have both striking durability feats and heat durability feats, which are all there is to Thor's lightning.

Once they are out of the way Thor can quite easily deal with Zod with Superior strength, durability, and speed to react

Ehh, you haven't made any case regarding Thor's strength. Thor also doesn't have nearly enough speed to react.

Overall, I don't think your argument is enough to counter my original strategy. My team would still beat up Thor until his dead due to massive speed advantage and there's really nothing Thor can do about it.

@xzone

Avatar image for lan_fan
Avatar image for empressofdread
#159 Posted by EmpressOfDread (11963 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for lan_fan
#160 Edited by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio

@empressofdread: Thanks, yo ^_^

This legit took me 16 hours, I did it part by part though (not all at once).

Avatar image for biswaboxz
#161 Posted by biswaboxz (2478 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for lan_fan
#162 Posted by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for xzone
#163 Edited by xZone (7547 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy lowball and highball, Batman. I was hoping to stay away from that but my goodness... I still have no idea why you referenced the star feat to the tectonic plate feat. I never once tried to use it. Anyways, I’ll respond as soon as possible

X

Avatar image for lan_fan
#164 Posted by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Are you talking about tectonic plate feat?

Avatar image for xzone
#165 Posted by xZone (7547 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: Well, yeah, I did just directly mention it. Literally don’t understand why you bring it up, you even admitted why it isn’t valid, yet you try and tie it to an argument I never used. I don’t wanna say too much outside of my counters, but I’m just in disbelief, tbh

X

Avatar image for lan_fan
#166 Posted by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: I didn't mention it in any of my arguments. I'm just saying it's more impressive than Thor's star feat.

Avatar image for xzone
#167 Edited by xZone (7547 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyways, not gonna say anymore till I get my counter up (which may take a while as I’m working on another CAV)

X

Avatar image for biswaboxz
#169 Posted by biswaboxz (2478 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: I haven't read ur whole argument but it looks really nice .

Avatar image for ready_4_madness
#170 Edited by Ready_4_Madness (13527 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for mr_shazam0920
#171 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (2367 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
Avatar image for godzilla44
#172 Posted by godzilla44 (6821 posts) - - Show Bio

PLS T4V

Avatar image for greysentinel365
#173 Posted by Greysentinel365 (5371 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Avatar image for megafanflash
#174 Edited by Megafanflash (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: Quite the long read, still great.

Taking notes.

T4V

Avatar image for xzone
#175 Posted by xZone (7547 posts) - - Show Bio

Post is just about done, but I was somehow tricked in to attending a play tonight, so I’m gonna have to finish this soon. Expect my post in the next 3-5 hours

X

Avatar image for lan_fan
#176 Posted by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for xzone
#177 Posted by xZone (7547 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: You’re not forgiven... You know how many feats I had to debu- Oh.. You meant about th grammar.. Well

X

Avatar image for rampagethefirst
#178 Edited by RampageTheFirst (5474 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for lan_fan
#179 Posted by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for supermanthor
#181 Posted by Supermanthor (4851 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for lan_fan
#182 Posted by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for supermanthor
#183 Posted by Supermanthor (4851 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: add Wally West flash to your team :)

Avatar image for lan_fan
#184 Posted by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for supermanthor
#185 Posted by Supermanthor (4851 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for xzone
#186 Edited by xZone (7547 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor Odinson, Strongest Avenger, Lord of Thunder, Rebuttals:

No Caption Provided

Countering:

For the reader:

  • I placed my original comments in spoiler blocks
  • Then Lan's response in the Quote function
  • Then my Responses to Lan's responses in Bold

Countering your lightning Counters:

Lightning Manipulation: Here's where things get Really ugly for the Kryptonians. Unfortunately for them, they have no energy durability feats to speak of, and also unfortunately for them, thats Thor's go to attack.

"Hmm, sure, but they were never shown to be vulnerable to it. Thor's lightning mostly generates great striking power, but that's it. At least that's the thing that makes the lightning destructive. I don't see what differentiate tanking the lightning itself, from tanking a punch that has feats on the lightning's destructive capability level."

Well, It's called Split-Durability. Basically, these durability sets are split because in comics and movies these different durability types often don't go as you might think, like Wonder Woman for example. She may be extremely durable to most things, but a bullet (piercing damage) can still kill her. In the same way, if Kryptonians don't have energy durability feats, then we assume the lightning should one shot them due to having no feats to suggest otherwise.

"This is unless you can prove that Thor's lightning has anything special to it other than having great striking power. Different case with let's say Iron Man's repulsor beam, its destructive capability mostly came from its heat, so then characters would need things other than normal blunt force durability to take it."

No Caption Provided

Well, Thor's lightning attacks do come from Heat, like here, where Thor's lightning barely moves Malekith, but severely burns him (showing this is a energy/heat based attack, not blunt as my opponent is saying)

"My team may not have actual feats of resisting lightning, but seeing what actually makes Thor's lightning destructive, they should have what it takes to survive them."

Well for one, if we are gonna talk about destructive power of a HV ray that hit them for about two seconds it's not much damage (lasted about 1 second on Faora and 1-2 on Nam) to prove they can survive Thor's attacks at all. For Two, heat wise Thor's lightning bolts from the sky should be as hot as lightning which as you already noted is>HV. Destructive wise even Thor's cloak>>the damage of 1-2 seconds from HV (and this HV made Faora/Nam yell in pain). It's also worth mentioning that Clark was obviously not using his most powerful HV against Faora and Nam because when he melted that steel his eyes were in pain afterwards, unlike against Faora and Nam. Similar to how Sasuke's Eyes vary in power, and the further he pushes himself the more pain, hence we can see the obvious difference when he's trying harder and not

No Caption Provided

Here you can see Thor destroying a City block level of Jotunheim with ease.

No Caption Provided

"It's not that impressive.... Jotunheim's land was very thin and crumbly. (The link will take you to a YouTube video)"

The initial blast radius is what I'm talking about, and it's also worth noting this ice has been hardening for thousands of years in far below zero conditions (from the look of the weather)

No Caption Provided

Although Thor also uses this form of lightning. Lightning drawn directly from the sky, hence 1/3 the speed of light, and too fast to dodge

"This is what I found from my research about lightning"

"According to the University Corporatiom for Atmospheric Research:“The leader travels at 220,000 kilometers (136,000 miles) per hour, the pauses between steps take 50 millionths of a second, the return stroke moves at over 100 million kilometers (62 million miles) per hour, and all subsequent strokes are so fast the eye sees a single flickering lightning bolt."

"Taken from Quora since I don't know jackshit about lightning. Basically the lightning that's travelling downwards is only mach 280+, and the return stroke it the thing that can travel 1/3rd the speed of light. So my team technically don't need to react to 1/3rd the speed of light. They need to move out the way before the return stroke comes. Reacting to mach 280 speed should be no problem to people that can travel at mach 500 and react to them in combat (only Zod)."

Well if it's taken from Quora it must be true. In all seriousness, I don't know a great deal about lightning myself, but even if you use your lower number of mach 280, you already admit Nam and Faora can't react to this, AND the feat you're using for Zod is flying to space right? Might I remind you that Zod is Semi-Adaptedin this fight, so those feats have no baring in this debate (and thats highballed to high heaven). When exactly did Zod react to mach 500 speeds at all? Let alone Pre-fully adapted.

"That's a fail-safe argument though, in reality, they don't even need to to dodge mach 280 speed, they can aim dodge Thor's lightning. This is a common theme in combat. Street levelers can dodge bullets, not because they're faster than mach 2, but because they're way faster than their opponents. I don't think Thor is fast enough to track them to aim at my team properly (I will address this in speed section). I'm gonna address this further on "why Thor can't tag kryptonians section"."

Not when Thor doesn't telegraph his attack at all. It's an instant attack which attacks
Not when Thor doesn't telegraph his attack at all. It's an instant attack which attacks

Countering your Striking Counters:

As I've already shown above, Thor's casual lightning blasts are 5-10x stronger than Thor's concentrated Mjolnir Strikes.

"Yeah, but what's impressive about that? I mean, all of Mjolnir's high-end striking feats came with lightning (especially if not thrown). Visual evidence showed that Thor didn't use his lightning to amp Mjolnir when he tried to destroy the bridge. My conclusion from this, is just Thor's mjolnir swing is not that strong, and the bridge isn't that durable. The only thing we can scale this from, is that feat where Thor launched Hulk with a war hammer, but that's honestly not saying much. Superman's casual punch to Aquaman has feat on this level already. My team members have taken better attempts from Superman."

Except for when Thor broke out of a cage meant to contain the Hulk
Except for when Thor broke out of a cage meant to contain the Hulk

Also, that casual hit by Clark is no where near Thor's hit against Hulk, anyone without bias can see this

Hulk weighs more, he went farther than Arthur, and there was more drag/resistance from the Alien Metal walls he was shredding through, so yeah, his lightning being 5-10x this is insane
Hulk weighs more, he went farther than Arthur, and there was more drag/resistance from the Alien Metal walls he was shredding through, so yeah, his lightning being 5-10x this is insane

Counters to your Speed Counters:

Here you can see Thor can adequately and easily track and aim at a much faster opponent: QS.

"QS is honestly not that fast. He's like DCEU Wonder Woman level. His best feat is perceiving bullets (mach 2). That's nothing close to catching Superman's 3 digit mach bullrush with ease (which all of my team members have performed). He's definitely not faster than kryptonians."

"Should also be noted that Quicksilver needed to stop his momentum a little bit to punch Steve and take a turn."

No, actually QS is a lot faster than that. Also, Clark clearly does not travel at triple digit speeds consistently in combat, if at ALL. Also also, I'm talking about Thor reacting to the Kryptonians, so talking about their reaction speeds is moot here

Here QS Catches a bullet after it has been fired, then proceeds to unload the entire mag and lay it out before Klaw even reacts. Thats FAR above a mach 2 feat
Here QS Catches a bullet after it has been fired, then proceeds to unload the entire mag and lay it out before Klaw even reacts. Thats FAR above a mach 2 feat

Here's a vid explaining QS's Speed

No Caption Provided

"Yes, he massively slowed down when he took a turn. You can see by the time Cap fell down at normal speed, Quicksilver had not exited the frame yet. This should be more than enough for Thor to track QS and throw his hammer at him."

How long do you think it takes QS to get back to normal speed anyways? He went from normal speed to unloading Klaw's gun in less than half a second, so I don't see how that holds any baring here

"Quicksilver was also very far away and running in a straight line until the very last moment."

You can clearly see here Thor Throw's Mjolnir before QS turns the corner. Nice try though
You can clearly see here Thor Throw's Mjolnir before QS turns the corner. Nice try though

Here Thor is shown as the only one moving while both Iron-Man and Captain America were totally frozen

"I mean, I can also see the the Ultron bot was moving as well.... I don't think Captain America was trying to do a quick move (most likely just casual move like trying to stand up), and Stark's combat/movement speed isn't that impressive to begin with."

"Unless you think Ultron Bot has mach 2 movement speed or something, I don't think this is worth mentioning."

Except for the fact that the only reason the Ultron bot was moving was because Thor was pushing him with his left arm while preparing to strike with Mjolnir. Look closely, this is a perfect example of Thor blitzing an opponent without them being able to react at all
Except for the fact that the only reason the Ultron bot was moving was because Thor was pushing him with his left arm while preparing to strike with Mjolnir. Look closely, this is a perfect example of Thor blitzing an opponent without them being able to react at all

Keep in mind Stark has been reacting to mach 4.5 since his first movie, and even though that doesn't translate to Starks combat speed, per se, I believe it is worth mentioning

"Cool reaction feats, but the tank was very far away, and a big thing like that can easily be tracked even if it moves fast. Stark's missiles which should be faster or at least as fast as that tank missiles needed like a solid second to reach the tank with the same distance. 1 second is way more than enough to dodge something like that. As you stated earlier, this doesn't translate to Iron Man's other feats."

You would be right, if you were right, so to speak. You can see the tank shell is passing right in front of Tony as he's dodging it. He's dodging this point blank
You would be right, if you were right, so to speak. You can see the tank shell is passing right in front of Tony as he's dodging it. He's dodging this point blank

Here Thor blitzes the Hulk

"Okay, all 3 of you gifs show Thor counter-attacking Hulk. This isn't the same as blitzing, this is just combat. Hulk doesn't really have that much combat speed to speak of. If that was just Thor trying to punch him, not as a counter attack, I believe Hulk should easily be able to catch it as well, just like he caught the missiles."

Out of curiosity, since when is this a counter attack?
Out of curiosity, since when is this a counter attack?

Countering your Counters:

"Countering your counters to my claims:"

"My team:"

We don't know the metal is the same metal that survived re-entry. That's the same as saying because a rocket made from metal on earth can survive re-entry, your every day military knife is gonna be made of the same stuff. Simply untrue. Now, if you have some kind of proof for that being the exact same metal, I'd love to see it

"Well, for a start, it looks exactly like the stuff that made their armor, especially their gloves. It's worth mentioning that Zod stabbed Jor-El who was wearing an armor with a similar looking weapon, but this could be because there are some gaps on his stomach are which I can't confirmed whether it's actually protected or not. Regardless, the sharp thing came in package with the glove, so it makes sense that it's made from the same thing. The same can be said for Faora as well."

Sorry, you lost me as to how this is the same metal as the metal for their ships..

"Should also be noted that Krypton is a massive planet, and has gravity that would crush normal people and their stuffs (which is why terraforming earth into krypton would've killed everyone and destroyed everything). So it makes sense that all of their stuffs need to be somewhat metallic and strong in order to not get destroyed by the gravity."

"Again, the weapon itself isn't important, it's about the force behind it. Hela is nice example of this, her weapons could pierce Thor because it was launched in the speed of sound, even though evidently it's made from something that can be destroyed by AK-47.(the link will take you to YouTube)."

And this wasn't the part I disagreed with, It was that the material was "re-entry proof" that I disagreed with, and I see you have conceded that point, so I accept that concession. About Hela's weapons. The ones that were destroyed by an Ak were from the earth of Asgard, very different from the ones she summoned out of thin air

Energy Durability Counters:

This is no where near the energy durability feat required to survive Thor's casual lightning strikes, let alone his serious ones

"It's about similar to Thor's jotunheim feats. Thor's seems to be more impressive because Jotunheinheim's land was thin and crumbly as I explained earlier."

They still can't hope to survive anything like this, considering, like I've already said, and you haven't been able to counter, they simply lack the feats to survive it

Casual attack from Thor he can do instantaneously, and none of the Kryptonians can dodge or tank this
Casual attack from Thor he can do instantaneously, and none of the Kryptonians can dodge or tank this

Countering your Nuke Arguments:

"Your Superman lowballing:"

Prove it was only due to the radiation?

"Okay, the scene is a reference to 2 comic book stories. One is from Superman/Wonder Woman #7, and the other is from Batman: The Dark Knight Returns (Earth-31). You see, both of them got nuked and it was the exact same effect."

"Both of them have tanked things more destructive than a nuke, obviously. If you're not convinced enough, New 52 Superman explained that it got him like that because his cells were absorbing too much radiation from the nuclear bomb."

For context, New 52 Superman was already injured badly from his fight with Zod and Faora.
For context, New 52 Superman was already injured badly from his fight with Zod and Faora.

"Note that nuke didn't damage Superman's body more than it did to his counterparts who are above planetary level. This should prove that all of them (including DCEU version) was more than capable to took the impact of the nuke. It was just the radiation that harmed them, because their cells absorb radiation."

So because his comic counterpart struggled with radiation it now means that was the only thing that affected Clark? That has less than nothing to do with this, even if it was meant to be like this comic, we don't know how much of the damage was just radiation or radiation+blast damage

"Should also be noted that I'm not claiming DCEU Superman is planetary, I'm just saying that he wasn't more damaged than his more powerful counterparts who should be able to tank the impact of the nuke easily. Logically he was harmed by the impact and heat, the explosion would've harmed him more, but no."

That's all fine and nice for comic Superman, but no such event happened in the movie, and that is the version we are debating here. I could just as easily bring up Superman comics that state Kryptonians are weak to magic and say Stormbreaker one shots. These are movie versions, not comic versions

He also wasn't just "harmed" he was nearly dead

"Well yeah, but not due to the impact. Other than the radiation harming him, he didn't even bleed from that. It should be noted that Superman hasn't healed from being exposed by kryptonite, taken vicious beating from Batman and Doomsday ( where he was knocked out at multiple occasions)."

Prove the amount of damage took from the blast to radiation. Prove how much he was weakened by kryptonite

Countering your Strength Scaling:

You can see how small this portion of the oil rig is, yet at maximum effort he can barely hold it up

"Context:

  • This isn't really about strength. Superman was balancing the force so the metal that he was holding (the one that's connected to the oil rig), and the platform/foundation (the thing that he stood on) didn't crumble. This is to hold the rig to buy time for the helicopters to leave, which he did.
  • This is the first time Superman actually tried to use his super strength properly. He had been holding back all his life. So obviously balancing his strength was a hard thing to do for him at that moment.
  • The angle actually made it impossible to hold (because it would've crumbled either way). Basically Clark tried his hardest to achieve the impossible."

None of that changes the fact that he was pushing himself to the limit to hold up a small tower (we know this because of his facial expressions). As I already said before, I think this scene did not give him justice, but you can't just scale villains without realizing this crucial factor. This isn't me lowballing Superman, this is telling you to acknowledge that Superman in MOS and Superman in BvS and Jl are different in power levels, hence not scaleable for Zod or his Kryptonian allies
None of that changes the fact that he was pushing himself to the limit to hold up a small tower (we know this because of his facial expressions). As I already said before, I think this scene did not give him justice, but you can't just scale villains without realizing this crucial factor. This isn't me lowballing Superman, this is telling you to acknowledge that Superman in MOS and Superman in BvS and Jl are different in power levels, hence not scaleable for Zod or his Kryptonian allies

Superman never really showed anything near that level in MOS

"This is simply false. Superman's outrunning phantom zone feat is way more impressive than the ship feat. The phantom zone managed to pull the whole World Engine, and destroyed it with it's gravitational pull. Superman basically needed to produce more force than that in order to outrun it."

Care to quantify that?

"There's also nothing that indicate Superman got any amp in BvS."

Better feats, being far more experienced, and being able to fight far more powerful opponents, actually. Ahem

Did you actually just bring the tectonic plate feat in to a CAV? I'll explain why this isn't valid, but I shouldn't have to. We never saw this feat on screen, It is a massive outlier if it's true, and if it is true we have no idea at all how it was accomplished. This feat has less standing than Thor taking the full force of a star for crying out loud.

"Fair enough. Although if you're willing to accept this feat, I will argue that tectonic plate feat is more impressive than Thor's full force of a star feat."

What do you even mean? I don't think the Star feat is valid for anything but energy/heat which is why I didn't even mention it.. The tectonic plate feat is even less valid, especially for scaling, and quite honestly, I expected better on this front from someone such as yourself

Countering your Speed Scaling:

Actually, Flash was reacting to Superman. Superman was the one attacking the flash, not the other way around.

"I'm talking about this."

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

"As you can see, Superman was reacting, and actively tracking a running Flash with his super perspective speed. Since Flash can run as fast as Superman can fly. This proves that Superman can perceive his own flight speed, which is an INSANE perception speed."

And I'm talking about this. Flash was dodging and moving around Clark like an adult dodging a toddler, and this is when flash sucks at using his powers
And I'm talking about this. Flash was dodging and moving around Clark like an adult dodging a toddler, and this is when flash sucks at using his powers

Here is the link to the fight between Flash and Clark about 2.20-2.50 is the fight

We don't know how fast flash is, plus Flash is still WAY faster than Clark, also different movie with a very likely amped Clark (since this is better than anything he showed in MOS), also also, Clark was barely moving his eyes. ALSO also also, this is Clark's reaction speeds, what in the world does this have to do with Zod? Once again, Note to the reader. Please realize that my opponent is trying to scale Zod, someone who fought an inexperienced, non-amped Clark, to someone who even when bad with his powers is dancing around an amped and more experienced Clark

"Despite the popular belief, Superman's best speed feats came from MoS where he traveled half the globe in less than 3 minutes. He proved than he can freely react and maneuver in his high flight speed in MoS."

No Caption Provided

This simply shows that Clark is not constantly going at mach 900. This would be like me saying Mjolnir constantly goes at mach 200+

No Caption Provided

"Basically the statement in BvS and feats in JL are just further confirmation that Superman indeed can react to his own flight. So there are 3 legit proofs that this is the case."

Clearly not. Superman only goes that fast when he is building up speed, and to act like his combat flight speed is anywhere near that is simply silly. I'd like to point something out to the readers:

  • My opponent is using feats from an amped Clark against Flash, who is clearly still faster, to scale to Zod, when in reality Zod fought an inexperienced Clark with None of these reaction/combat speed feats

Flash was clearly far, far faster than Clark

"No, I mean, his best feats is actually racing with Superman. Only going by implication, we can be sure that Flash is at least hypersonic because he needs his suit to protect him from heat that's caused by moving at hypersonic speed. Other than that, his feats aren't even comparable to Superman's, unless you want to count his lightspeed statement on Suicide Squad."

Again, we don't know how fast Superman was flying there, we don't know who won, and Flash was stomping Clark in combat speed. How does this relate to Zod again?

Superman never did anything near this level in MOS, but now we want to scale old villains to this? I don't think that's fair especially when most believe the mother box amped Clark immensely.

As I stated in my original post, it's stated by canon that Superman's reflex is as fast as his flight. I realized didn't post the scan, but there you go.

In a way, but not the way you're trying to use it

"In an instant, he can accelerate until he's moving swifter than the speed of sound, leaving a thunderous sonic boom in his wake. His reflexes are equally as quick, which is important"

Notice something important here? The guide only says he can break the sound barrier and that his reactions are equal to That speed. So actually, it's saying he has faster than sound reaction speeds, not necessarily as fast as mach 900 (a claim made by you and others on the vine), but as fast as creating a sonic boom. Now you might be saying, "well it continues to talk about how if he crashed in to things he wouldn't be so heroic, implying they meant they are the same" Yes, that would make sense, but the guidebook doesn't claim he is mach 900, does it? It says he can break the sound barrier. Perhaps he isn't as fast as you think? But...

Guidebooks don't really matter to begin with, feats do

Taken from official analysis in Batman v. Superman that you can get if you buy BvS Ultimate Edition DVD.
Taken from official analysis in Batman v. Superman that you can get if you buy BvS Ultimate Edition DVD.

"Which is again just confirmed in JL. Considering that Superman's best flight speed came from MoS (by far), I think it's fair. It's not new feats, it's just reconfirming what has been established in the past."

Not when all that happened was he was stomped by the Flash in speed and we don't know how fast the flash is

So Clark can react to flash, and Zod can react/punch superman, and flash can run as fast as superman can fly, hence Zod is how fast exactly? Flawed all around here

"What is so hard to understand? Cap, Bucky and T'Challa could tag and react to each other. How? Their speeds are at the same ballpark, obviously. That's the argument I'm trying to make with Zod, Superman, and Flash. They can perceive each other and engage in combat as fast as Superman's 3 digits flight speed."

Haha, No. To the reader, again

My opponent is trying to use Clark's amped feats to scale off of an unquantifiable Flash's speed to give an opponent Superman fought pre-amp a speed scale. It's flawed because they are basically different versions of Superman, due to no amp and inexperienced Clark. I simply Can't hammer this point enough. Superman is NOT as fast as Flash, not even close, and Clark is faster now by feats than he ever was against Zod

"If you're wondering why I think DCEU Zod would beat MCU Thor in other threads, this is why."

Still Wrong

IIRC, those were special effects meant to show them fighting at mach speeds, not every hit was creating a shockwave due to their strength.

"Uhmm, excuse me, force = speed * mass. So if a strike is launched at a very high speed, it'd automatically create a very high destructive output."

I never said it wasn't a high damage output, but there is a clear difference between the two

Countering your Gameplan:

"Why my team would win:"

"Why Thor's not fast enough to react to their attacks:"

"As I addressed earlier, both Quicksilver feat, and outspeeding Iron Man feat aren't impressive enough for Thor to react to kryptonians. Not even close, according to my opener, my team are like 10-20 times faster than that in combat due to their perception speed. One of them being able to launch himself at mach 500."

So incorrect. Mach 500? Are you mixing Adapted Zod and non-adapted Zod again? I'm noticing a pattern of mixing up amped Kryptonians and Non-amped ones

"Now for Thor's bullet timing feats. Bullets are mach 2 speed, if I'm correct, again that's not even close for Thor to react at all. I have more than this though. Reaction speed can only get you so far in an actual combat, especially reacting to projectiles like Thor did as projectiles are easily predictable and travel at straight line. In combat with people who are way faster than those projectiles, Thor has no chance to keep up."

Zod doesn't scale to Clark post JL, so this point is moot, again

"Here's why:

  • Like I said, kryptonians are like 10-20 times faster than anything Thor has reacted to (Zod is even far faster due to his direct speed).
  • Unlike projectiles, people in combat wouldn't be attacking from a straight line, they'd maneuver around Thor and hitting him from different angles. They can attack with variety of moves that can't simply be countered by blocking. Most importantly, their attacks will be in close range, so it'll be way harder to react to.
  • Hard enough for Thor to react to one of them in combat, now there are 3 of them who are going to attack Thor from different angles. Even IF Thor could perceive one of them, the other 2 would easily blindside Thor from other angles that's out of Thor's vision."

Gees, I gotta hammer this point once again... Thor has tracked QS or at the very least mach speed projectiles. We now saying these Kryptonians have mach 10-20 combat speed? Hell no! This is so far off! You can't prove this through any twisted scaling at all

In the rare instance that Thor can't react he has his cloak to cover for him which again, you haven't proven they can survive

Lightning will protect Thor if they try and hit him, and they can't tank this
Lightning will protect Thor if they try and hit him, and they can't tank this

"Conclusion: Reaction speed isn't enough to keep up with people in combat, like blocking their attacks for example, especially when it's 3 against 1, and all of them are at least 10-20 times faster than anything your character has reacted to. Also, while bloodlusted."

"Why Thor is not fast enough to tag them:"

Here Thor blitzes Hela with ease

Here Hela reacts to machine gun fire, and this is while she is fighting an entire army of asgardians, so Thor blitzing her is very impressive

"I mean, you already showed Thor's bullet timing feats anyway. Not worth mentioning if you think about it, since basically Thor blitzed someone with similar speed to him with a freaking lightning attack. Not surprised at all."

Actually, it's very impressive because this shows Thor's combat speed, which is different from Thor's reaction speeds, but I'm happy you admit Thor can move at and fight at Mach Speeds Now

"Now I'm gonna explain why Thor can't tag my team with his high-end lightning attacks. Simple, I don't think Thor is fast enough to track their movement, aim his lightning properly, and then doing his usual hand gesture/jump to summon lightning accurately."

"I believe Thor needs to aim his lightning strike and lightning punches, right? Yeah, it's not happening, tracking one kryptonian would be hard enough, so he moment he tried to do so, he'd get blindsided by the other members. It's way, way too slow, it's not even funny."

"Let's see all of Thor's high-end lightning attacks"

Like the whole point of most of Thor's attacks is that he doesn't have to aim them, they are AOE based.

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

They don't require charging, or at least the majority of those don't (only one of them did)

Instantaneous, and they still won't survive this (besides Zod maybe)
Instantaneous, and they still won't survive this (besides Zod maybe)

"Good luck doing that against 3 bloodlusted kryptonians, all can just do this the moment Thor tried to jump or charge his lightning or whatever:"

No Caption Provided

"All of them can perform this to Thor. Why? Because Nam-Ek is actually the slowest one in the group, and Thor is nowhere near as fast as Superman in movement speed. They're bloodlusted here, so they won't be giving Thor any chance to do anything until Thor's dead."

"Thor's AoE attack took even longer to charge, that one took like 5 seconds. This is the only case where Thor wouldn't need to aim his lightning, but this also took way too much time. Basically every time Thor tries to do anything major, my bloodlusted team will just blitz him out of it."

"Now with that being said, I think Thor can tag them with his passive lightning cloak, but that's it. They should be able to tank this one with no problem (explanation in the next section)."

This lightning KO'd Hela. Now, let's ignore her other durability feats and insane regeneration for a moment. She has far better energy durability feats than these Kryptonians and she was KO'd. What do you think is going to happen to them? This is all besides the fact that Hela heals from wounds instantaneously, so she must have been pretty badly hurt here
This lightning KO'd Hela. Now, let's ignore her other durability feats and insane regeneration for a moment. She has far better energy durability feats than these Kryptonians and she was KO'd. What do you think is going to happen to them? This is all besides the fact that Hela heals from wounds instantaneously, so she must have been pretty badly hurt here

"Why Thor can't harm my team:"

"First of all, he'll have hard time perceiving three of them at once, so it's unlikely that Thor can tag them with his high end lightning attack (as explained above)."

"Basically Thor's only chance to tag them is with his passive lightning cloak. I'm talking about the lightning that automatically protects his body without him needing consciously aiming at his opponent. This is bad news for Thor because his passive lightning cloak is not that strong at all."

I've already shown (and you already admitted) that Thor can react to multi-mach speed enemies and even blitz those with mach reaction times, and these are no different. Thor Can React, but he doesn't even need to because his cloak will for him

No Caption Provided

"Fodders that was put down by AK-47 stood up from Thor's casual passive lightning cloak. It's worth noting that other than scaling it with Thor's high-end lightning attack that required him to charge and aim at his opponents, this passive lightning cloak barely has feats. Either way, its stand alone feats don't have any striking nor heat feat that's capable of even hurting my team."

This is a silly argument. For one, Thor's lightning did destroy those enemies. For Two, this is exactly like if someone were to say Diana can be one shot by an AK, but survived Ares lightning, hence the lightning is weak. It's different durability types, and You Know this already, and now, so do the readers. You STILL have not provided any real energy durability feats for these characters, so they are getting one shot. No amount of low balling is going to change that. Also, let's quickly entertain the idea of those Ak's one shotting these guys actually mattering. Asgardians have enhanced guns, and I see no reason why Skurge couldn't have amped his

"Before you're claiming that this is lightning cloak's doing:"

No Caption Provided

"It's kinda iffy because we actually don't know what Thor did inside that thing. Seems like he was charging his lightning as he sped up to the thing, so it's possible that it's one of those lightning punches or one of those aim-based high-end lightning that I mentioned earlier (which I think should not be able to tag my team), instead of his ordinary passive lightning cloak. Could be something like Captain Marvel did in the trailer."

Well, we can see lightning destroying it, so the burden of proof would be on you to prove the lightning didn't actually destroy it, but it was just fuel igniting. The ship ignites in every spot the lightning is emitted. If this wasn't just from the lightning then we could expect some of the lightning strikes to do nothing because they missed a fuel line

"It should also be noted that I've never seen Thor's lightning creating that kind of explosion in the past, so it's likely that the dropship's inside has some kind of highly explosives stuff inside it that Thor's lightning cloak simply triggered by being inside it."

"I'm assuming and theorizing a lot here, because we really don't know what Thor did inside that thing. Also the fact that Thor's passive lightning cloak has an anti feats that don't lineup with that feat. I don't think even Thor's AoE attack at Wakanda was that powerful, the outriders should've been disintegrated if that was the case, and that required 5 seconds of charging."

"Now for the charged/aimed lightning that you're so proud of. Honestly, it still doesn't have striking feats that tops Superman's striking feats like destroying the top of a mountain. At best it's equal"

This isn't mountain level? Each one of these leviathan were nearly as large as a building...Also, you asked for Thor's lightning making things explode, here you go. This one and
This isn't mountain level? Each one of these leviathan were nearly as large as a building...Also, you asked for Thor's lightning making things explode, here you go. This one and
Thor's lightning overcharges things and makes them explode all the time
Thor's lightning overcharges things and makes them explode all the time
No Caption Provided

"Why my team can put Thor down:"

"So basically it's just because Thor could take multiple punches from Hulk, it means he can take punishment from 3 kryptonians at once? Think again. Hulk's leviathan feat is honestly not that impressive, especially when scaled to him punching Thor."

"I wanted to address this in my counter section, but I had to post a video for this."

"As you can see, Iron man blew up half of the thing, and its upper part (should be the heavy part) fell to a taxi and it did absolutely nothing. It didn't even damage it. This thing CANNOT be multi-thousands tons."

"And you can if you play the earlier part when Hulk actually did the feat, Hulk's initial punch didn't stop the leviathan, it was Hulk's strength after the punch that stopped it. I mean, look at it this way, if Hulk's hand was open instead of closed (fisted), it would've made 0 difference. This is definitely lifting strength, not striking feats."

"Just for context"

"This is the example of stopping something with a punch."

"Superman stopping Superman's momentum with his striking"

"This is how stopping something with strength looks like. This is more like Hulk's feat."

"Batman stops Superman's punch with his strength."

What? That's not even close to accurate.

There is a difference between stopping a 200-230 pound man and stopping a multi-thousand ton monster WITH momentum. The only reason I can see as to why Hulk was pushed back is because he had nothing to push against with his legs, he simply slid through the concrete
There is a difference between stopping a 200-230 pound man and stopping a multi-thousand ton monster WITH momentum. The only reason I can see as to why Hulk was pushed back is because he had nothing to push against with his legs, he simply slid through the concrete

"Now that that's out of the way, here's why my team can put Thor down:"

  • "First of all, my team managed to knock out someone like Superman who tanked World Engine's gravity beam unharmed when it can flatten skyscrapers. Superman also tanked going through a mountain (destroying the top), completely unharmed. Hulk's striking feats aren't on this level yet.
  • Second, my team are way, way faster than Hulk, so they can deliver much more punishment in less time. Thor has never taken this much punishment, especially done in a very short period of time. Thor's body should definitely get overwhelmed.
  • Third, Faora still has her knife, which should at least be as hard as her armor. Combined with her striking, this would be deadly for someone that has nearly 0 piercing durability feat. Sure, Thor has pain resistance, but if Thor gets stabbed on his skull or heart, he's done."

First off, LOL at using energy durability feats for Blunt feats, but if you insist:

Survives the heat of a star
Survives the heat of a star
Tanks a massive explosion from the Bifrost
Tanks a massive explosion from the Bifrost
In a nearly dead state Thor tanks a massive explosion from the power stone
In a nearly dead state Thor tanks a massive explosion from the power stone

I guess they can't put Thor down, ay?

Hulk actually one-shot a mountain in his first movie (deleted scene IIRC), but even without that his striking feats are still>>Faora, Nam, or Zod

Thor can react to Faora, he has a lightning cloak that she can't bypass, and he one shots with Stormbreaker

Countering your Fail-Safe Plan:

"Fail-safe plan:"

"So if somehow Thor managed to hit my team with his high-end lightning attacks. I'm certain it could put down Faora (although Faora is the less likeliest to get tagged because she's the best at using her speed). However, to people that can take a beating from Superman like nothing survived being bullrushed by Superman from orbit to earth, tanked Superman's heat vision with only minor pain, and easily survived re-entry."

"Thor's high-end lightning would hurt, but it's not gonna enough to put them down. Even if somehow Nam-Ek goes down, there's no way Thor can put Zod down, especially when he still has massive speed advantage, and more than enough striking feats to put him down."

Literally none of them have "tanked" Superman's heat vision. Nam and Faora got hit for about a second and screamed in pain, and one seconds of HV<<Thor's Cloak for goodness sake, let alone his lightning bolts.

Taking a beating from Clark has literally no standing in the realm of energy durability

Which ones of them survived re-entry exactly? Only one I can recall is fully adapted Zod, and Zod isn't fully adapted here, so that point is moot

Countering your strategy:

As soon as the initial blast is done

"Assuming that will ever happen."

It will, it's instantaneous, as I've already shown

both Nam-ek and Faora will essentially be one shot

"If somehow it happened, sure Faora would be one-shotted, but Nam-Ek? No."

Neither of them have energy durability feats on par with any of Thor's attacks

unless you can show me energy durability feats on par with Thor's lightning of course

"They have both striking durability feats and heat durability feats, which are all there is to Thor's lightning."

That's like saying since I have blunt durability feats I can now tank hits from 616 Thanos. There are different levels of durability, and they simply lack anywhere near what is needed

Once they are out of the way Thor can quite easily deal with Zod with Superior strength, durability, and speed to react

"Ehh, you haven't made any case regarding Thor's strength. Thor also doesn't have nearly enough speed to react."

Well, If Zod were actually mach 500, sure, but he's not. Also, I'll get to the strength section, dw

"Overall, I don't think your argument is enough to counter my original strategy. My team would still beat up Thor until his dead due to massive speed advantage and there's really nothing Thor can do about it."

I've disproven your supposed speed arguments scaling from the Flash already, and you still have no provided Energy durability feats even close to this level:

And this is Thor's cloak, let alone his normal attacks
And this is Thor's cloak, let alone his normal attacks

No Caption Provided

Re-Establishing Thor's Winning Points:

How Thor Can React:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

You said Faora was the least likely to be tagged and that she was the best at using her speed. Well, If that's the case, Thor should have no problem at all reacting to and one-shotting her and her team, considering she's the best you have speed-wise, as you said yourself

Lightning from Stormbreaker:

Lightning latches off Thor's weapons, such as Stormbreaker, and will help make up for the speed Gap
Lightning latches off Thor's weapons, such as Stormbreaker, and will help make up for the speed Gap

Skill:

I see you didn't respond to my skill category, so I assume you concede here

Here you see Thor easily out-skilling Asgardians without killing them
Here you see Thor easily out-skilling Asgardians without killing them
Here Thor shows more Skill against Asgardian Soliders
Here Thor shows more Skill against Asgardian Soliders
Here you can see how skilled these Asgardians are, and Thor out-skilled them with ease
Here you can see how skilled these Asgardians are, and Thor out-skilled them with ease
Thor is able to out-skill shield agents easily
Thor is able to out-skill shield agents easily
Here Thor Shows more skill feats against Shield agents while depowered completely
Here Thor Shows more skill feats against Shield agents while depowered completely
I think it's best to let agent Coulson's words speak for themselves:
I think it's best to let agent Coulson's words speak for themselves: "You made my men, some of the highest trained in the world, look like minimum wage mall cops. That's hurtful". Coulson then goes on to ask Thor where he acquired this incredible training/skill
Here Thor shows his skill with gungnir against a vastly superior opponent, Hela
Here Thor shows his skill with gungnir against a vastly superior opponent, Hela

Why your team Still can't react to Thor's lightning, nor survive it:

You fully admitted in your own post that Thor's lightning strikes are at least mach 280. You then said it was no issue though because Zod has mach 500 reaction times or something of that sort. First, you were referencing a fully-adapted Zod, which is not who's being debated atm. Second, that's an insane highball for even travel speed. Third, it's not applicable to combat speed. Fourth, you're assuming he constantly blitzes and combat's others at this speed. That has as much validity as Constant Mach 200+ Mjolnir

No Caption Provided

Thor's lightning is too fast, and it can't be aim-blocked if Thor doesn't make them expect an attack like this

No Caption Provided

None of your Kryptonians have energy durability feats capable of surviving let alone tanking Thor's casual lightning blasts. They will be one shot

Strength:

Since you were so interested in disproving my strength comments:

Here Thor swings Rocket's multi-ton ship like a toy
Here Thor swings Rocket's multi-ton ship like a toy

Part of the massive ring feat, but also doubles as an insane piercing durability feat
Part of the massive ring feat, but also doubles as an insane piercing durability feat
You can see Thor breaks the insane amount of Ice by moving the Skyscraper sized rings
You can see Thor breaks the insane amount of Ice by moving the Skyscraper sized rings
Here Thor opens, and keeps open this massive Iris while being burned alive
Here Thor opens, and keeps open this massive Iris while being burned alive
Just a size perspective to see how insanely massive this thing is
Just a size perspective to see how insanely massive this thing is
Crushes Stark's Gauntlets like it's nothing while weakened by Dark Energy. This suit is made from a gold titanium alloy 4 times harder than steel. The Tensile strength of steel is 40,000 PSI, however If plated like Stark's armor it can be closer to 80,000 PSI. This means Thor is able to output 320,000 PSI with his fingertips, casually, while weakened, and this is just taking the materials as are, we could assume Stark's armor is more durable than a normal gold titanium alloy. So low-balling Phase One, weakened, casual Thor, with just his fingertips: 320,000 PSI
Crushes Stark's Gauntlets like it's nothing while weakened by Dark Energy. This suit is made from a gold titanium alloy 4 times harder than steel. The Tensile strength of steel is 40,000 PSI, however If plated like Stark's armor it can be closer to 80,000 PSI. This means Thor is able to output 320,000 PSI with his fingertips, casually, while weakened, and this is just taking the materials as are, we could assume Stark's armor is more durable than a normal gold titanium alloy. So low-balling Phase One, weakened, casual Thor, with just his fingertips: 320,000 PSI

Durability:

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

This feat alone is enough for Thor to survive at least 10-20 hits from Kryptonians, and they will never last that long hitting a guy with a lightning cloak that one-shots them

Recap/Gameplan:

As I recap, I ask that you remember the Facts:

  • My opponent has yet to offer Real energy durability feats for his team. He's tried to cover for that by saying they tanked re-entry, which is False. None of his team have tanked re-entry besides Zod, and that was while fully adapted, and we aren't debating him here. He also tried to cover by saying Faora and Nam tanked HV, but in reality they were hit for about two seconds and screamed in pain Skip to 1.52. Only time they ever had contact with Energy attacks and they were hurt badly. Thor's lightning Is far above 1-2 seconds of HV as I've already proven, and this cloak is constant, AND as my opponent already admitted is hotter than Clark's HV
  • Thor is quite capable of tanking a few hits if he needs to, no problem here
  • Thor can react to these Kryptonians. As my opponent already stated, Faora is the best on his team via speed, and she was easily traced and shot by soldiers with ease. Thor is far faster than these soldiers and can replicate that, as my opponent has already admitted Thor can blitz those with mach reaction speeds (Hela)
  • Thor's Cloak is a major problem and it's not just going away. It's>HV and HV hurt Faora and Nam immensely, so they are just about non-factors here
  • Since we have proven Thor can react to the Kryptonians he can use Stormbreaker on them
  • Thor's AOE and lightning from the sky can also one-shot my opponents
  • Thor's Strength is also far above any of my opponents as I've proven
  • My opponent has not even bothered to respond to Thor's skill stats because he is obviously so far above, and combining this with Thor being able to blitz Hela (someone who can react to machine gun fire), and Faora being tagged by normal soldiers I can see Thor keeping up 1v1 if that happens
  • My opponent spent FAR too much time trying to prove that Zod=Current Superman, and it simply isn't true, as I've shown. He then went even further to try and scale Flash's speed to Superman's flight, then Zod's speed to that same speed. All around is was flawed logic

That said, I'll conclude my rebuttal. PS, sorry this was a little harsh, lan, no hard feelings, mate

Avatar image for matthew660
#187 Edited by Matthew660 (1006 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after each post please

Avatar image for lan_fan
#189 Edited by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: You didn't tag me, and you tagged people who didn't ask to be tagged after every post.

Avatar image for darthvaderrocks
#190 Posted by darthvaderrocks (649 posts) - - Show Bio

Solid counter xZone.

Avatar image for xzone
#191 Posted by xZone (7547 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: I meant to tag you. I realized I had a few formatting errors I needed to quickly fix. I tagged anyone who asked to be tagged for votes or posts

X

Avatar image for lan_fan
#192 Posted by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh, not impressed, tbh. This is gonna take long though, so many things to be debunked.

Avatar image for xzone
#193 Edited by xZone (7547 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

Meh, not impressed, tbh. This is gonna take long though, so many things to be debunked.

Good luck. Yeah, this took me an unbelievable amount of time to go through...

X

Avatar image for the_red_devil
#194 Posted by The_Red_Devil (3300 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice debate from both you kiddos , cheers !!!!

Avatar image for geeman2
#195 Posted by geeman2 (1280 posts) - - Show Bio

Good counters.

Avatar image for lan_fan
#196 Posted by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: My closing will be up in a week or so. I have a lot of homeworks, and IRL stuffs to do.

Avatar image for xzone
#197 Edited by xZone (7547 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for lan_fan
#198 Posted by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Yeah, I usually work on my CaV post little by little in my spare time, but I currently have 3 homework where I need to type long essays. That's frustrating enough. I'm not gonna my spend my spare time typing another long essays, lol. I'm gonna be spending my spare time chilling, reading comics, and posting 1 or 2 words post for the time being.

Avatar image for lan_fan
#200 Posted by Lan_Fan (11533 posts) - - Show Bio