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#501 Posted by Lan_Fan (14923 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#502 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31730 posts) - - Show Bio

@andromeda101: Oh, of course SHE gets a proper vote. For me, you troll and backstab. I see how it is... =P

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#503 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@mylittlefascist: You don’t believe in split durability? Dang, I’m surprised how many people don’t get the concept. Also, I did go over Thor’s lightning from the sky pretty heavily as to how it is far hotter than HV, but I digress. Ty for your opinion

X

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#504 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@andromeda101: I couldn’t disagree more with pretty much everything you just said, but thanks for voting

X

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#505 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#506 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31730 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Split durability exists, but it's nowhere near the exaggerated levels that people like to use on comicvine. When a character can tank being smashed through mountains but can be pierced by normal bullets, that's not split durability, that's called bad writing.

Energy attacks still deal physical damage, unless explicitly shown otherwise (such as soul based attacks). The damage they deal is through a combination of heat and concussive force, both of which the Kryptonians and their equipment have shown ample durability against.

Also, I did go over Thor’s lightning from the sky pretty heavily as to how it is far hotter than HV, but I digress.

That's not how lightning works. Lightning is not heat. Lightning is electricity. Electricity gets converted into heat, but only when it meets resistance. Metal is a conductor, which means it holds very little resistance. In other-words, electricity flows through it far too quickly and easily for heat to properly transfer into the metal (at least not to the extreme degrees the lightning itself is capable of).

Hence why, real life lightning does not melt steel beams, despite it's high temperatures. In fact, we protect buildings by sticking thin metal rods on top of them, and ensuring that there is a direct line to the ground for the current to travel through.

The same principal works for a full body suit of armor. The lighting strikes the metal, follows the path of least resistance., and goes into the ground without effecting the person inside.

We saw this happen when Thor blasted Ironman, where we were able to visibly see the lightning move through the outside of the armor and into the ground (as well as get absorbed into Ironman's reactor), all without effecting him inside the suit.

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#507 Posted by LeonardSnart (2803 posts) - - Show Bio
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#508 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@mylittlefascist: That’s a very flawed analysis, but this isn’t the battle forums, so I’m not going to debate this with you. Thanks again for your opinions

X

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#509 Edited by LeonardSnart (2803 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: could you give me a quick summary of what you disagree with in @mylittlefascist post?

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#510 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#511 Posted by LeonardSnart (2803 posts) - - Show Bio
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#512 Posted by Aka_aka_aka_ak (3211 posts) - - Show Bio

This some bullshit. This is exactly why I don't do CaVs.

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#513 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31730 posts) - - Show Bio

This some bullshit. This is exactly why I don't do CaVs.

?

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#514 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@mylittlefascist: He thinks faora and every kryptonian stomps mcu thor speed equalized, so to fathom the idea that MCU Thor is currently winning (not exactly him, but you know what I mean) is driving aka insane

X

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#515 Posted by Red_Ruby_Petal (8239 posts) - - Show Bio

disconsider my vote, I didnt look at it in a debating perspective but more of what threw me off

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#516 Posted by Aka_aka_aka_ak (3211 posts) - - Show Bio

@aka_aka_aka_ak said:

This some bullshit. This is exactly why I don't do CaVs.

?

This was a mismatch from the start. I know CaVs are supposed to be voted on based on the debate itself rather than who the voter thinks should win (the reason I'm not voting- since I haven't read the whole debate), but people on this site have a massive bias towards certain characters, so it's kind of ridiculous to me that the same people then decide the winner.

In short: the people voting are supposed to be voting for the better debater, but no one here has any expertise that I value whatsoever. Most people voting are not experienced debaters. The whole voting system to me is like settling once and for all the argument of the better artist between Picasso and van Gogh by having some random guy off the street decide.

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#517 Edited by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#518 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#519 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@red_ruby_petal: You’d like me to remove your vote? I didn’t know that was a thing, tbh, but alright

X

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#520 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#521 Posted by Aka_aka_aka_ak (3211 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

@mylittlefascist: He thinks faora and every kryptonian stomps mcu thor speed equalized, so to fathom the idea that MCU Thor is currently winning (not exactly him, but you know what I mean) is driving aka insane

X

Nope, please don't tell lies about me and then attempt to try and understand the motive behind my comment.

Firstly, I actually think speed equalised Faora loses to Thor. I think Zod vs Thor is a decent fight, speed equalised I would give Thor the win. I have always argued that I just seem to value speed more than you, so if you equalise speed I would vote the same as anyone else.

Secondly, my comment was actually about the flawed voting system- having people with no experience or expertise in debating deciding who was the better debater.

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#522 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@aka_aka_aka_ak: Interesting, because that’s not what I remember you telling me. Regardless, you’re derailing the voting, so I’d ask you to stop whining

X

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#523 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31730 posts) - - Show Bio

@aka_aka_aka_ak: The problem here is that debate skill is more or less measured by your ability to convince random people. Yes, comicvine does have it's biases and a lot of thought trends that are rather absurd (split durability, cough... cough..) but that doesn't mean the concept of a CaV is worthless. If nothing else, it's a hell of a lot more organized and productive than debating in random threads will ever be.

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#524 Posted by DeutschKurzhaar (1429 posts) - - Show Bio

@aka_aka_aka_ak: I do see what your saying about non experienced debaters voting. But hear me out. And this is coming from a guy who is currently going to law school at Vanderbilt. (By no means am I saying i'm better because of that, or that Im a pro comic vine debater, because im not, but because it is very flawed and different to a real debate. I just bring it up because I know how to debate, and am very experienced and knowledgeable when it comes to stuff similar to this) So that said, I do see your point about it being like a random guy off the street voting. But keep in mind this is all for fun, and shouldn't be taken as a serious debate or vote. Obviously most people don't know how properly debate here, or even know how to properly vote. But like I said before, its not really about that. It's just for fun. Either way, no ill will to you bro, keep doing you.

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#525 Edited by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (11906 posts) - - Show Bio

I wrote an essay explaining both sides arguments, but it just disappeared after I posted it, that sucked tho I spent 20 minutes writing it.

However, I completely agree with @mylittlefascisthere, especially regarding X's lighting argument, I don't see it one shotting the Kryptonians at all, if it was truly as hot as he was insinuating (50,000°C) then it would've casually melted Iron Man the very moment it made contact with his suit (Titanium boiling point is 3,287°C), and that didn't happen which ruined the lighting argument and its entirety, lol.

However, Lan put way too much effort into the Kryptonians speed advantage, and tried to capitalize on it, and I feel like she did a good job up until the Mach 500 Zod, that sorta put her entire argument in jeopardy as she failed to provide actual evidence for it being the case, and I think she could've done way better than that, but she did convince me that the speed gap between Thor and the Kryptonians is astronomical. Whilst, Zee on the other hand, did a great job showcasing Thor's DC/Durability feats and why he could inflict critical damage on the Kryptonians, and I feel like he exaggerated Thor's speed quite a bit.

Over all, the debate was pretty much all about lighting and speed. Both sides had some solid points, although Z's final post was a pretty damn good one and better than his previous posts combined, and countered the majority of Khael's points. As of now, I'll refrain from voting until I reread the CAV once again. Not gonna lie, I initially voted for Lan, and I thought she was a "he" lol.

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#526 Edited by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebestofthebest: I will say this (because I couldn’t counter this in my posts because Lan never brought up the metal to lightning argument). For one, Thor’s lightning destroyed the Asgardian armor instantly. For two, stark’s Armor absorbed the lightning because of he arc reactor. This is clear as day considering his suit was charged to over 400% and this wouldn’t work with any ordinary electronic, obviously. Third, that lightning was from a weakened, phase one Thor, not very fair to compare that to a post infinity war Thor’s lightning from the sky

I normally don’t argue with someone’s opinions in voting, but I did feel the need to point this out, especially when this wasn’t Lan’s Argument you were using, but MLF’s. If Lan had made that argument and I hadn’t countered it, I wouldn’t be responding here

X

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#527 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (11906 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: I have some major disagreements with that but I don't wanna derail the whole topic. Anyways, I'm aware it was MLF's take on your lighting argument, but I didn't count it as one of Lan's arguments, just in case you're wondering.

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#528 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebestofthebest: You did in fact say that destroyed the lightning argument, which seems weird because Lan didn’t make that argument. Anyways, you’re welcome to PM me about it cause I’m curious to hear why. Thanks again for reading

X

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#529 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31730 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: He wasn't voting, he was just saying that he agreed with me.

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#530 Posted by CyberpunkCop (3406 posts) - - Show Bio

Xzone brought up points i didn't even think were possible yet he convinced me

X you have my vote

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#531 Posted by thanosii (3131 posts) - - Show Bio

@mylittlefascist: Thors lightning destroyed armoured Asgardians,

Destroyed Armoured Chituari soldiers

Destroyed Armoured Levithians

Destroyed metal Outrider drop ships

Care to explain any properties from krypton metal that makes it different from all other metals This has one shot

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#532 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31730 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanosii:

hors lightning destroyed armoured Asgardians

Those were the Undead Asgardians, whose armor were clearly degraded to a significant degree as not only were they able to be destroyed via normal bullets, but also through blunt force trauma of being struck with a man-made rifle (these were both things brought up in Khael's post).

Also we are discussing Thor's passive lightning cloak as opposed to his more powerful blasts (his passive lightning cloak did not destroy any armor. The only time his lightning appeared to destroy any armor was when he called the lightning from the sky, and even then it's a bit hard to tell if the armor is actually being destroyed or if they are just crumbling to ash inside the armor).

Destroyed Armoured Chituari soldiers

I don't remember him ever visibly destroying the armor. I do remember him 1-shotting Chitauri soldiers via lightning, but the Chitauri soldiers are not covered head to toe in armor. They had plenty of exposed areas for the lightning to strike:

No Caption Provided

Furthermore, in order for a suit of armor to properly protect against lightning, the metal needs to provide a direct/uninterrupted current to the ground. If you are wearing just a chest plate and boots, with no metal to bridge the two pieces; you are not protected.

Also I mean... The Chitauri were fodder that couldn't even take on street levelers like Black Widow and Captain America. You really can't compare them to Kryptonian armor, AT ALL.

Destroyed Armoured Levithians

Destroyed metal Outrider drop ships

Again, we were specifically talking about Thor's passive lightning cloak, not his more powerful directed attacks. The only time he destroyed ships and leviathans were via physically smashing into them and destroying them from the inside or using his more powerful/directed blasts.

Furthermore, most of the destruction regarding those ships, appeared to occur, not from the lightning, but rather from the ships themselves combusting. This suggests that Thor's lightning was somehow overloading the ships' and leviathan's own internal electrical systems as we never really see these types of explosions when he strikes things other than aircrafts (something that Khael touched upon in the CaV as well).

Care to explain any properties from krypton metal that makes it different from all other metals This has one shot

The Kryptonians wear complete suits that would provide a complete/uninterrupted current directly into the ground. They are also... so far above the Asgardian and Chitauri armor durability feats it's downright ridiculous to compare them.

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#533 Posted by Thanos_thebadas (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: @xzone: I believe Thor wins in this one tbh. His new feats in IW seem very good. Others may be faster, but Thor has the lighting cloak that ripped through the big Outrider ship, and he also tanked it. Awesome durability feat, also that Quicksilver feat could help since he was moving slowly in his perspective while the others were moving pretty quickly. Not being biased, just my thought. Hopefully it was detailed enough so it wasn't a half-assed comment that gives xzone the win.

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#534 Posted by thanosii (3131 posts) - - Show Bio

@mylittlefascist: Great I deliberately did not mention Ultron bots so as to hear your covered head to toe claim. And now i await to here how you explain how metal robots didn't conduct electricity as you claim.

Also whether Chituari where fodder is irrelevant and as the CAV had shown when it comes to energy durability this trio is fodder too

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#535 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31730 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanosii:

Great I deliberately did not mention Ultron bots so as to hear your covered head to toe claim. And now i await to here how you explain how metal robots didn't conduct electricity as you claim.

It does, but just like the ships, the bots have internal electrical systems that can be disrupted/overloaded. Not to mention those things fall apart like legos whenever they are up against a major character.

Also. Once again you are ignoring the fact that we are NOT discussing Thor's normal lightning blasts, only his lightning cloak. I have no idea how many times I have to say that before it sinks in...

-_-

Also whether Chituari where fodder is irrelevant and as the CAV had shown when it comes to energy durability this trio is fodder too

Energy attacks are just combination of heat and concussive force. It's not some special hax attack that normal durability cannot be applied to.

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#537 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31730 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanos_thebadas: No, it didn’t. Him crashing into the outrider ship an blasting it from the inside destroyed it.

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#538 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#539 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio
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#540 Posted by thanosii (3131 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Unfortunately when pondering on an aspect that affects a decision on the CAV this is allowed to be discussed here to some degree. U based your argument on lightning and asked for comments when voting these where my comments.

It need not get too long but 3 comments is hardly derailing

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#541 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanosii: Voting is based of Lan and My arguments, not based on your discussions with other viners

X

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#542 Posted by thanosii (3131 posts) - - Show Bio
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#543 Posted by deactivated-5c522ab96172e (2388 posts) - - Show Bio

@mylittlefascist said:

Oh, of course SHE gets a proper vote. For me, you troll and backstab. I see how it is... =P

Your sister-complex really is messing with your mind, dear. Heh.

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#545 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31730 posts) - - Show Bio

@mylittlefascist said:

Oh, of course SHE gets a proper vote. For me, you troll and backstab. I see how it is... =P

Your sister-complex really is messing with your mind, dear. Heh.

I do NOT have a sister complex!

Besides, even if I did, I fail to see how that would be relevant.

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#546 Posted by deactivated-5c522ab96172e (2388 posts) - - Show Bio

@mylittlefascist: It's not.

I just like messing with you, hence why I purposely voted for your opponent in that CaV. :P

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#547 Posted by Kevd4wg (12798 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan@xzone

Alright, this is probably going to end up being a long vote so... Anyway, this was a good CaV with solid debating and I'm looking forward to seeing more from both of you in the future, but for voting I'm going to focus more on the negatives of the debate, not that the debate was bad(it was quite good), but moreso so you can see where you can improve.

The first thing I want to address that I find very important in debates to say interested is good formatting and unfortunately I found that to be a bit lacking. Lan_Fan's formatting was fine, but Xzone's wasn't the best. It might just be personal preference, but I find using bold and the spoiler over Xzone's original statements to be incredibly ugly and a strain on the eyes. That also goes for putting the counters in bullet points, which kinda seemed weird. Not too big a deal, but just something to keep in mind. I'd recommend more the formatting in your last post without the bullet points(and maybe describe a feat in normal text, but that wasn't too big a deal).

Secondly, I felt that both debaters did a lot of scan dumping, which also made the debate a bit more of a strain to read. I mean both of the debaters first posts were just more or less describing feats for their character, some of which I felt was unnecessary. Maybe Lan Fan could've done kinda what Anthp does and post the full smallville fight, going over everything important that happened. Personally, I think you should just post the feats that are necessary to your strategy and some general stuff(So like that section in Xzone's last post) and if more feats are needed for better feats, different aspects, counters, and consistency you can bring them up in later posts. Particularly in later posts when Xzone just kinda copy/pasted his opener into his post, my eyes sorta glossed over and I just skimmed it. Basically, scan dumping might show a lot, but just feats don't win an argument. Those two things aren't too important, but I wanted to mention it.

As for the debate itself, I thought that Lan_fan's argument that all the kryptonians were mach 500+ was a major stretch to say the least even with my personal feelings that it's complete bullshit put aside. I never really felt like Lan fan presented feats and proof for this, which Xzone pointed out well. I didn't really buy into Superman always bull rushing at Mach 900 speeds in combat either, like at all. Additionally, I felt that Lan relied a bit much on scaling to Superman, which while I get that all of these characters only fought Superman, at times it felt like this was just a Superman vs Thor CaV, which made Xzone's posts feel more concise and more straightforward/relevant to the battle. As for the issue of split durability, I think Xzone might've pushed that a bit much beyond reasonable differences, however he did explain everything he said which was better then Lan's just saying energy durability wasn't a thing and not elaborating on it, something that needed elaboration and was extremely important to the debate. Another thing I felt Lan should've done was stress the 3v1 advantage and teamwork and how that would keep Thor off balance, though for the little he did post, I found Xzone's point that Thor + Stormbreaker + Lightning Cloak was a bit of a team of it's own, even if they obviously aren't as independent as the Kryptonians. One problem Xzone had was bringing up new stuff that in the last post that Lan didn't have a chance to counter, like the ring feat, laying out his main Strat(tho he did mention it earlier) and making statements like Lan needs to counter this, which Lan obviously can't.

With all of that I'm giving my vote to Xzone for doing a better job arguing for his character and convincing me that Thor can take out the Kryptonians with his lightning.

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#548 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31730 posts) - - Show Bio

@andromeda101 said:

@mylittlefascist: It's not.

I just like messing with you, hence why I purposely voted for your opponent in that CaV. :P

Yes, yes. I am perfectly aware of both of those things... >_>

Did you block me to mess with me too? =/

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#549 Posted by xZone (10347 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: What a break down. Thanks so much for the vote, I really appreciate it. I will say two quick things: The ring feat was included in my second post, but I deleted The gif from my gallery so it was deleted from my second post, but Lan did counter it (I had a new gif for it in my closing). The ”new things“ I added that I had simply mentioned before I made sure to ask Lan before I posted them (healing factor and flight, mainly). I’d be happy to show you the PM’s if you would like.

I don’t mean to sound like I’m arguing your reasoning, just that the gif was deleted (still my fault) and so on. Thanks again for reading/voting and for your Vote

X

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#550 Posted by Kevd4wg (12798 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Oh ok cool. In that case then it's all good, I didn't feel like the ring feat was essential to your argument either way.