Avatar image for ourmanuel
#451 Posted by ourmanuel (11876 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for xzone
#452 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: @ourmanuel: It’s not really over. Over 30 people asked to be tagged to vote, and we have around 19 in. Like Lan said, I’d like to hear your opinion OM

X

Avatar image for lan_fan
#453 Posted by Lan_Fan (14706 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: Okay, you did say you were gonna give us your opinion after the debate is over though.

Avatar image for ourmanuel
#454 Edited by ourmanuel (11876 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m too heart broken for this shit

Avatar image for xzone
#455 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: You did say you would give your opinion lol

X

Avatar image for mr_shazam0920
#456 Edited by Mr_Shazam0920 (4882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: I just rewatched the scene. I don’t think it was supposed to be interpreted as only 3 minutes or they had the idea of him flying Mach 900 from one side of the Earth to another. I think it was more like he just pops up out of nowhere to crash into Zod’s ship to save the day.

In the actual scene you see him flying and by the looks of it he is not going anywhere near that speed. IMO that feat is a little bit of a reach. Superman is fast and is hypersonic but I don’t think he is THAT fast. Like I mentioned in the earlier comment when he saved his mother from Zod he was going all out when he bullrushed, and he didn’t reach anywhere near those kind of speeds.

Don’t want to derail the thread, I just always wanted to discuss this particular matter.

Online
Avatar image for xzone
#457 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_shazam0920: I tend to agree with that point of view, but I didn’t feel the need to go in-depth on this particular issue in the CAV

X

Avatar image for lan_fan
#458 Edited by Lan_Fan (14706 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_shazam0920: These kind of things happened 4 times in MoS though and one of them happened in combat, but okay if my arguments are not convincing enough.

Avatar image for mr_shazam0920
#459 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (4882 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Yeah, I got you. You just know how this site works. Feats have to be clear cut and irrefutable otherwise you get turned into a laughing stock “StAR LevEL UnIvErSAl ThOr”.

Online
Avatar image for xzone
#460 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_shazam0920: I don’t even argue for universal star Thor and I still get given a hard time about it by a certain troll Cough*

X

Avatar image for mr_shazam0920
#461 Edited by Mr_Shazam0920 (4882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: No dude, it has nothing to do with your arguments. It is just a general question I always had IRT that scene. That’s all.

Online
Avatar image for amcu
#462 Posted by Amcu (16889 posts) - - Show Bio

This was a really nice debate. Better than I would have anticipated. Both debaters did well and my opinion of both of your debating skills has risen.

Now onto some more thoughts. @lan_fan impressed me with her arguments a great deal. Arguing that the Kryptonians blitz Thor continually and stop him from putting up an effective offence is the best way to debate this matchup in their favor. I do find myself disagreeing with her on most topics because I tend to debate for Thor in these areas but still I have to admit that she did a very good job. I do think that some of the statements she made were a little bit extreme or ridiculous. Like Kryptonians having multi hundred mach combat speed. Or Superman punching Aquaman 70 feet through the air being comparable to Thor sending the Hulk flying through several hundred of feet of advanced alien metal. I also don't think she provided enough reasoning as to why Thor's lightning would have a lower temperature than regular lighting. Though I will say that I agree with her in that energy feats can be used for blunt force and vice versa if both attacks are force attacks. The force of an energy attack can be compared to the force of a blunt attack IMO.

Now onto @xzone. Again I was really impressed with his arguments in this debate. I think his final post was by far his best by a large margin. I really wish that specific post had been one of his earlier posts and that there had been counters for it. Anyhow I think he did a good job of nailing in the power of Thor's lighting. But again due to the fact that I tend to debate for Thor I find myself wishing that he had nailed down certain ideas that think he could have gone a little further into. I'm mainly nitpicking here but I'll go into it nonetheless.

For one, though I think he did a good job at countering the speed argument I think he could have gone even further. If I were him I would have cataloged all of the various instances were Kryptonians were clearly perceived by regular humans to counteract the idea that they have combat speed so fast that Thor can't perceive them. Them being tracked by humans has actually happened a decent number of times. He did note the instance where Faora was tracked by soldiers but he missed another instance in the same fight were a soldier sees Nam-Ek as he is sneak attacking Superman and reacts pretty well to him(Link). In addition to that during the final battle with Zod there are multiple instances were it seems implied that humans are viewing Superman and Zod in combat. We also see pretty clearly in the BvS flashback scene that Batman was watching them as they flew.

The most important aspect of the speed debate that I think he could have nailed down is the fact that Superman had better combat speed in Justice League than in MOS. A simple comparison shows this. During BvS Wonder Woman was certainly on Clark's speed level. She consistently reacted to and blocked attacks from Doomsday. The same Doomsday that had no issue tagging Clark with his speed. Based on BvS, Diana and Clark should have been on a similar page as far as combat speed. Yet in Justice League Clark literally blitzed Diana so badly that she couldn't even perceive him at all. And that was consistent as well during the film because he managed to both fight Flash(Someone that is definitely faster than Diana)and casually blitz Steppenwolf. Steppenwolf who consistently matched Diana in combat and competed with her speed wise. To me I think making this comparison would have ended any scaling to post JL Superman speed wise.

In addition to this I think another area he missed in the speed debate is how Thor can counteract speed with a lighting bolt from the sky. The feat that I wish he had highlighted more significantly is the instance wherein Thor summoned a bolt of lightning down onto the Asgardian palace knocking Hela out in the process. The reason this feat would have been important is not just the power behind it but the sheer size of the lighting bolt. It was shown in comparison to the Asgardian palace and while its not as large as the palace it is still significant in comparison. This palace was shown to be the size of a mountain and completely dwarfed surrounding skycrappers much more than this lighting bolt. With that in mind it would difficult to argue that Thor can't tag them because he can't perceive them as it wouldn't matter. Thor would only need to engulf himself in that lightning blast for it to tag them. And it would easily engulf all of them into it as its just so massive. Using that feat would have been one of the best ways to argue against speed working on Thor IMO.

Again I want to note that I'm really nitpicking. These are just some of the things that I would have liked to see @xzone point out. And overall he did great.

Really both of you did great. it was a pleasure to read this. Honestly I think I'm going to call this a stalemate. I don't know that I really believe either of you did better than the other. I may change my mind but for now I think I'll give each of you half a vote.

Thanks for the tag and thanks for the good debating from both of you!

Avatar image for xzone
#463 Edited by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: I will just say I felt I hammered that lightning from the sky bit a lot, Pount Two in particular, and I didn’t need to talk about the size of the lightning because the heat itself would one shot them, though obviously not to your standard, and that’s fine of course. Not gonna go through everything you said, cause it subjective. Thanks for commenting and reading our CAV

X

Avatar image for amcu
#464 Posted by Amcu (16889 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone said:

@amcu: I will just say I felt I hammered that I hammered that lightning from the sky bit a lot, though obviously not to your standard, and that’s fine of course. Not gonna go through everything you said, cause it subjective. Thanks for commenting and reading our CAV

X

Like I said I'm nitpicking. You did really well and I mean that.

I'm not at some higher standard or anything BTW. I just saw some things that I think you could have done a little bit better(You did great) and I'm not necessarily right or anything. I'm also sure you could find some things I could do better if I did a CAV. I just really like to note every detail and everything I think when its a character I know well like Thor. Sorry if it seems like I'm overly critiquing you as that's not my intention at all.

I'll admit I should probably stop pointing out so much when I vote in CAV's like this.

Avatar image for lan_fan
#465 Posted by Lan_Fan (14706 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: I'm sure you read our posts in great detail. Holy shit, that's detailed and extremely true. It's a shame that you're not voting though. Thanks for your thought, I guess.

Avatar image for amcu
#466 Posted by Amcu (16889 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: Thanks! I was going back an fourth but I felt like dropping my thoughts here still.

Avatar image for xzone
#467 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:
@xzone said:

@amcu: I will just say I felt I hammered that I hammered that lightning from the sky bit a lot, though obviously not to your standard, and that’s fine of course. Not gonna go through everything you said, cause it subjective. Thanks for commenting and reading our CAV

X

Like I said I'm nitpicking. You did really well and I mean that.

I'm not at some higher standard or anything BTW. I just saw some things that I think you could have done a little bit better(You did great) and I'm not necessarily right or anything. I'm also sure you could find some things I could do better if I did a CAV. I just really like to note every detail and everything I think when its a character I know well like Thor. Sorry if it seems like I'm overly critiquing you as that's not my intention at all.

I'll admit I should probably stop pointing out so much when I vote in CAV's like this.

No, don’t stop. While I may disagree, it’s my job to convince you in my posts. I really appreciate you going in-depth, and I still hope you end up voting here

X

Avatar image for amcu
#468 Posted by Amcu (16889 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Thanks! I'll consider it. I'll probably be busy tomorrow but I should be able to reread this Thursday if its still open for votes.

Avatar image for xzone
#469 Edited by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:

@xzone: Thanks! I'll consider it. I'll probably be busy tomorrow but I should be able to reread this Thursday if its still open for votes.

Votes were planned to be open till Saturday, 5pm eastern, tho I think due to the current Tally we are playing it by ear (unless Lan still wants it till Sat). If you’re re-reading it, my Three final points in my closer explains pretty much my entire argument

1) Lightning from the sky:

2) Cloak/AOE:

3) Stats:

X

Avatar image for amcu
#470 Posted by Amcu (16889 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for ourmanuel
#471 Posted by ourmanuel (11876 posts) - - Show Bio

Still can’t belive StarLord is winning.

Avatar image for xzone
#472 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for matthew660
#473 Posted by Matthew660 (1676 posts) - - Show Bio

That picture of zod is terrible lmao

Avatar image for xzone
#474 Edited by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for mr_shazam0920
#475 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (4882 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: Wait, you’re a she? My badness for calling you dude in my previous post.

Online
Avatar image for xzone
#476 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: Wait, you’re a she? My badness for calling you dude in my previous post.

I still don’t know myself...

X

Avatar image for amcu
#477 Posted by Amcu (16889 posts) - - Show Bio

^^ LOL!!

Avatar image for lan_fan
#478 Posted by Lan_Fan (14706 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: @mr_shazam0920: I am, but it's okay to keep it gender neutral in the internet, especially in Battle Forum of all places.

Avatar image for xzone
#479 Edited by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

@xzone: @mr_shazam0920: I am, but it's okay to keep it gender neutral in the internet, especially in Battle Forum of all places.

Oh, I legit thought you were a guy lol. Good to know

X

Avatar image for matthew660
#480 Posted by Matthew660 (1676 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: Lol, I never really paid attention. I’ll vote after fully reading all the posts. I’ve mostly just skimmed through them.

Avatar image for ourmanuel
#481 Posted by ourmanuel (11876 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: I’m too salty to vote😭

Avatar image for mutant1230
#482 Posted by Mutant1230 (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I have to vote for @xzone.

Khael, you started off really strong and I came into this CaV thinking the Kryptonians had a pretty good shot at winning here, even with all of Thor's recent amps in the MCU. The biggest problem is that after the first post you resorted to a lot of speculation without sufficient proof and and a ton of weak evidence to back up a lot of your claims about DCEU Kryptonians being able to react at Mach 500. Which was devastating to almost all your points since your stance so heavily relied on the Kryptonians have superior speed to Thor.

The biggest instances I noticed is that you when X pointed out travel speed isn't correlated with combat speed you seemingly brushed that off without a second thought, even though that is a highly agreed upon rule of CV debating. He also pointed out that JL Superman couldn't be scaled to Man of Steel characters due to the theory that he was amped by the Mother Box, and you just sort of said no and moved on. That's a very serious accusation and one that needed to be adequately shut down, but never was. This is a huge problem in your overall plan for the Kryptonians to win that was never satisfied by the end of the debate.

To be fair though, not all of X's arguments was rock solid either and Khael did do a good job against his claims that Thor's lightning feats are significantly more powerful than Kryptonian heat vision, and he was being a little inconsistent by claiming Superman's feats were outliers yet claimed Hulk was mountain level because of one deleted scene feat in the 2008 movie.

You both made solid points and provided a lot of great scans and arguments. I think anyone who claims either side can stomp or one shot is misinformed and this CaV proves it. But when it comes to actual debating, Khael's errors were much more significant then X's and for that reason, I've got to give my vote to the latter.

Avatar image for lan_fan
#483 Edited by Lan_Fan (14706 posts) - - Show Bio

@mutant1230: I had 3 reasons why I said their combat speed = their travel speed and why I scaled Zod to JL Superman. All which because of feats and statements. It's okay if you're not convinced, but saying I just brushed his arguments is insane, since it was the exact opposite. He didn't make any single arguments disproving my claims, except probably in the closing which I can do nothing about, and I didn't read either way.

Man, I'm starting to think people don't read my full arguments. It's probably my fault since my posts are damn long, but damn.

Avatar image for nucleon
#484 Edited by Nucleon (3451 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

@mutant1230: I had 3 reasons why I said their combat speed = their travel speed and why I scaled Zod to JL Superman. All which because of feats and statements. It's okay if you're not convinced, but saying I just brushed his arguments is insane, since it was the exact opposite. He didn't make any single arguments disproving my claims, except probably in the closing which I can do nothing about, and I didn't read either way.

Man, I'm starting to think people don't read my full arguments. It's probably my fault since my posts are damn long, but damn.

Your posts being concise was, at least for me, a plus, althought I can understand the need for more lenghty ones. Concise posts have a better chance to be read in their entirety. Your style was, IMO, exemplary, and one of the two reasons I voted for you (the other one for your plan B).

PS; If more people knew you were a she, I guess you would have had more votes... Maybe. =)

Avatar image for lan_fan
#485 Posted by Lan_Fan (14706 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon: I really appreciate that, you know. I actually worked hours probably for each sections (not posts, sections), since I had to rewatch nearly everything just to be sure. I think it's fine if people are not convinced because my arguments are not good enough for their standard or if they think my opponent's arguments are better, I guess, but saying I didn't do something that I actually spent hours doing is kinda insane. All that effort only for people to roll their eyes over them, I mean people can at least read them even if it's not convincing enough. Some people even voted against me, because I didn't counter or address something that my opponent DIDN'T offer, I mean c'mon.

I was never too eager to win or anything like that, so I'm not salty because my opponents are getting more votes. These reasonings are kinda hurtful though. I kinda rolled my eyes over clear bias votes, I don't care about those, but this.... makes me feel like I spent my time over nothing.

Avatar image for nucleon
#486 Edited by Nucleon (3451 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan: I don't think anyone can detect even a hint of saltyness from you. Like I've wrote, you are an exemplary CaV duellist.

But yeah, I can easily believe you on the effort part; Just voting took me like an hour. I guess it's kind of frustrating when you realize some people vote without reading the fruit of such an effort. That's a shame, but alas that's how people are, and there's little you or I can do about it, except to decide if we CaV or not.

And as of yet, for my part, I don't think I could. Way too demanding. I don't know how XZone does. He must have people working for him or something =)

Avatar image for xzone
#487 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for xzone
#488 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon: Yo... you aren’t supposed to know about the workers writing all my CAVs...

In all seriousness, it’s a LOT easier if you stick with one character, because then the gifs, arguments, and everything really are very similar from CAV to CAV, so I don’t have to remake the wheel for every CAV

X

Avatar image for xzone
#489 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for mrmonster
#490 Edited by mrmonster (15533 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm voting for @lan_fan. I don't think @xzone did enough to counter @lan_fan's point about kryptonian speed advantage, and I don't think @xzone's argument about kryptonians not explicitly having lighting durability feats therefore they'd fall to Thor's lightning is a good point.

But regardless, this was definitely a good debate, hat's off to both of you.

Avatar image for lan_fan
#491 Posted by Lan_Fan (14706 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for xzone
#492 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrmonster: I wonder how not having any kind of durability, then exploiting that weakness is a bad point lol, but thanks for voting and reading, as always

X

Avatar image for xzone
#493 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for thebestofthebest
#495 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (11805 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll give it a read, then I'll vote.

Avatar image for xzone
#496 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for mutant1230
#497 Posted by Mutant1230 (6612 posts) - - Show Bio

@lan_fan said:

@mutant1230: I had 3 reasons why I said their combat speed = their travel speed and why I scaled Zod to JL Superman. All which because of feats and statements. It's okay if you're not convinced, but saying I just brushed his arguments is insane, since it was the exact opposite. He didn't make any single arguments disproving my claims, except probably in the closing which I can do nothing about, and I didn't read either way.

Man, I'm starting to think people don't read my full arguments. It's probably my fault since my posts are damn long, but damn.

Maybe I misspoke, you didn't completely ignore them but those are very bold claims and require a lot of evidence to make work which I didn't feel as though you provided, and you stuff you did claim X was able to cast a significant amount of doubt on.

Avatar image for xzone
#498 Posted by xZone (10346 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

Avatar image for mylittlefascist
#499 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31711 posts) - - Show Bio

@xzone: I don't know if I'll actually vote, but since you wanted my opinion I guess I'll give it.

Anyways, Khael did succeed in convincing me that her team held the advantage in this fight and would likely come out on top. However, I am still debating as to whether or not that necessarily means she argued better.

She made a lot of really big claims that kind of crippled her side of the debate in the long run. That said, I don't necessarily agree with all of your points either either.

Overall, I feel her team had speed advantage, and while Thor is far from a statue here, I don't believe he can deal with entire trio of faster characters each equipped with bladed weaponry capable of penetrating his skin.

As far as I could tell, the main focus of the debate was whether or not Thor's passive lightning cloak could make up for the gap in speed and numbers advantage, and I don't think you proved that. I wasn't a fan of your split durability arguments, and I do think the Kryptonians have more than enough durability feats to handle all but Thor's most powerful of attacks.

I wish she pointed out that a full body suit of metal armor is actually the absolute best protection one can have against lightning, and went over the science behind why; but nonetheless, it's pretty clear that Kryptonians and their equipment are >>>>> The undead Asgardians. The latter were basically the only real feats you had regarding the completely passive side of Thor's lightning defenses.

Avatar image for deactivated-5c522ab96172e
#500 Edited by deactivated-5c522ab96172e (2388 posts) - - Show Bio

After finally finishing to read all this, I'm giving my vote to @lan_fan.

For starters, I'm not so much into live-action characters, but I noticed a strong low-balling and highballing from both sides(I must admit the triple mach digit speed for the Kryptonians almost had me spilling my coffee, really). In the end and despite personally thinking Khael wanked her characters quite a bit and maybe even more so than her opponent, the overall arguments were still more than enough to serve their purpose and prove the significant speed-advantage of her team and their capability to inflict serious damage on Thor. I could get more into it, but I believe it's enough and for those simple reasons she has my vote.