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#1 Edited by Amendment50 (14335 posts) - - Show Bio
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MCU T'Challa (GearSecond659)

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MCU Defenders- Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist (Amendment50)

Rules:

Victory by incap, KO, surrender or death.

Morals off for T'Challa, on for Defenders. Defenders get basic knowledge on T'Challa's abilities.

T'Challa is suitless and wearing regular clothes (but has the Heart-Shaped Herb). Daredevil has his suit and billy club/batons, but otherwise Defenders are unarmed. Danny has the heart of the dragon/Iron Fist.

Starting distance is 20 ft.

Location:

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#2 Posted by Amendment50 (14335 posts) - - Show Bio

@gearsecond659: Does everything look good to you, or do you want to make any changes?

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#3 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@gearsecond659: Does everything look good to you, or do you want to make any changes?

Everything looks good. Who's going first?

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#4 Posted by ANTHP2000 (21946 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice, tag me.

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#5 Posted by Amendment50 (14335 posts) - - Show Bio

@gearsecond659: Made one edit to specify that Danny has the Fist, assuming that is good with you. And either of us could start, do you have a preference?

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#6 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@gearsecond659: Made one edit to specify that Danny has the Fist, assuming that is good with you. And either of us could start, do you have a preference?

Can you start?

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#7 Posted by lubub55 (12743 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#8 Posted by mexcomics2078 (1361 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting T4V

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#9 Posted by vsw (2601 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#10 Posted by KingOfWakanda (1789 posts) - - Show Bio

TV4. Should be interesting.

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#11 Posted by JSDoctor (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after each post. Looks interesting.

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#12 Posted by _KingofLatveria (17518 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after each post. Looks interesting.

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#13 Posted by DarkPsychicLord_Prime (3408 posts) - - Show Bio

T'challa is suitless? 🤔🤔🤔

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#14 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (13302 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#15 Posted by Amendment50 (14335 posts) - - Show Bio

@gearsecond659: Fair warning: my opener ended up being very comprehensive, very big and very gif-heavy. So I'm breaking it up into two posts just to be safe.

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#16 Posted by Amendment50 (14335 posts) - - Show Bio
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The Defenders:

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Biography:

The Defenders, despite their high-profile comic book origins (Dr. Strange, the Hulk- even Silver Surfer!), are a street-level team in the MCU, composed of Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist. Originally formed by a common interest in overcoming the ancient organization known as the Hand, they are a group of headstrong, clashing personalities with initially no relationship to each other that were forced to set aside their differences in the name of justice, teamwork, heroism, yada yada, the usual business.

Each member of the team is used to being the most formidable person in the room, so a super-soldier-like opponent like T'Challa will definitely prove to be a unique challenge. That said, without the aid of his Wakandan tech, there is really nothing that T'Challa brings to the table here that the combined strengths of the team can't do just as well, if not better. Luke and Danny are going to be the bread-and-butter (frankly, Luke is more or less enough to contend all by himself), but Matt and Jessica provide solid support, so I'm going to open by going over each team member's strengths and summarizing with how they work together into a strategy to overcome T'Challa.

Spoiler warning for Iron Fist season 2 (and all other Netflix MCU shows) ahead!

Daredevil:

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Theoretically, Daredevil is the only member of the team without any form of enhanced physicals, but through sheer endurance and willpower he regularly comes off as borderline superhuman. He also has armor to bolster his defense and a detachable billy club to help out with striking power, and his incredible martial arts skill combined with his senses makes him arguably the best fighter on the team. On his own, he is physically outclassed by T'Challa, but I'm going to argue here that he is more than skilled enough to keep T'Challa busy and strong enough to make some measure of a dent.

Daredevil is the most skilled fighter here (yes, including T'Challa, and good luck convincing me otherwise :P), having proven himself by outfighting Iron Fist in a fair 1v1. I have gifs of the fight but it's better to just watch it in its entirety so I'm linking it instead. Part of Matt's incredible martial arts ability comes from his ability to predict movements through his enhanced senses, and as I have said before elsewhere, it can be hard to tell what comes from his senses, his skills, and his reflexes. But given that all three factor into Matt's fighting ability, I don't see much point in drawing a distinction anyway.

Matt has proven himself able to fight alongside incredibly skilled martial artists, from Iron Fist to Nobu to the Black Sky. In the case of the latter, this allowed him to last the duration of a fight by himself despite a large gap in physicals between them, similar to the gap that exists between him and T'Challa. He is a skilled aim dodger and can predict and evade successive attacks, flip through machine gun fire without being touched and deflect arrows with a billy club.

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Elektra being an established bullet timer capable of beating a dozen skilled Hand fighters in the dark, unarmed.
Elektra being an established bullet timer capable of beating a dozen skilled Hand fighters in the dark, unarmed.
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Pure reaction speed, considering Matt did not even know the ninjas were there and could not sense them.
Pure reaction speed, considering Matt did not even know the ninjas were there and could not sense them.

Matt lacks superhuman strength but repeatedly impresses with his physical prowess anyway, including having fought multiple superhuman opponents, including Murakami, who physically overpowered Jessica and even staggered Luke. He is strong enough to smash a car windshield, knock a door clean off his hinges and take down the Punisher, who is known for his ridiculous bulk through sheer force of will. Even without his armor, Matt was bulky enough to shrug off a palm strike from a (bloodlusted I may add) Elektra, and has always been known for his ridiculous endurance, fighting off waves of enemies even while severely hurt.

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Battling two Fingers of the Hand at one time, on his own.
Battling two Fingers of the Hand at one time, on his own.
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Matt is probably the closest thing the team has to a jack-of-all-trades, being both powerful and bulky without matching the more extreme level of Jessica or Luke, and more skilled than Danny without having the added benefit of the Iron Fist.

At equal stats, Matt could easily outfight T'Challa on his own, and his ability to hold his own with the likes of Elektra despite a stat gap should prove that he can do the same to T'Challa. And while he is probably not strong enough to beat T'Challa with the strength of his blows alone, I personally think it is hard to argue that they won't make any impact. In a 4v1, Matt's principal use is clear: his speed and skill is enough to occupy all of T'Challa's attention by himself, providing plenty of opening for his stronger team members.

Jessica Jones:

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Undeniably, Jessica is the weakest link on the team in a fight, owed to the lack of formal training that Matt and Danny have, and without the ludicrous bulk of Luke to cover for it. She is as much an asset to the team in her investigative abilities and her natural talent for reigning in stupidity as she is for her physical strength. That said, Jessica is constantly underrated, often drastically so, to the point of being considered basically a non-threat, which is not the case at all. Jessica is the second strongest member of the team- when pushed, she's actually very close to Luke's level- and sheer physicality is not something to sneeze at, especially in a situation like this where T'Challa will have his hands full with other, more slippery fighters. In this scenario she is a large boon for the team.

Jessica isn't a martial artist, but she isn't a chump, either. She is a peak athlete (her mile is under four minutes!) and a competent street fighter, able to drop over a story without injury, evade a speeding train, react to an ambush from a speedster and punk multiple skilled Hand fighters at once.

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Jessica has greatly enhanced physical capabilities, both in strength and durability. Jessica is not the beast that Luke is, but she is still a hell of a lot tankier than people give her credit for. As of this point, she has shrugged off a bullet wound, no-sold a stun gun, taken multiple hits from Luke, tanked being thrown across a room by Alisa (a multi-tonner, likely at least twice as strong as Jessica is) and survived a direct collision with a truck with only a couple of broken ribs to show for it (S1E11- still no good clips for this feat :P).

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Strength-wise, Jessica can knock a grown man across a room with a single punch, and throw them dozens (if not hundreds) of feet. She can punch through metal, casually snap handcuffs, hurt a (pre-amp) Luke, stop a moving vehicle, shove a car hard enough to smash through the wall of a building, and hold over a ton in one hand.

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This feat is actually insane, considering she is throwing Will Simpson's body- so ~180 pounds, roughly.
This feat is actually insane, considering she is throwing Will Simpson's body- so ~180 pounds, roughly.
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Given that she is constantly underestimated, I am sure that Jessica is not really being considered a factor here, but the fact of the matter is that while she may not be able to outfight T'Challa, she is beyond strong enough to hurt him, tough enough to take multiple focused blows from him, and fast enough to get attacks in, especially in a 4v1 fight- just as she was able to do fighting Elektra. Jessica provides valuable extra muscle, and frankly with attacks from both her and Luke, the team does not even need the power of the Iron Fist to win this- even though they've got it.

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#17 Edited by Amendment50 (14335 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke Cage:

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Simply put, Luke is the biggest threat here, and outright enough to give T'Challa a run for his money all by himself. Especially after being explicitly amped in the second season (technically at the end of the first season and later retconned), Luke is an extremely powerful brick with ludicrous physical feats. His durability- which is his trademark asset- is frankly more akin to T'Challa with the suit than without it, at least based on the showings we have right now. And his physical strength reaches super soldier levels. Skill is the only thing he really lacks here, but his team can cover for him in that department. So let's talk about the most powerful Defender.

Since T'Challa is unarmed, I won't spend too much time dwelling on it, but Luke is bulletproof, machete-proof, hatchet-proof, rocket proof, grenade proof, etc:

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After a dip in acid in season 1, Luke's durability was further enhanced, enough to shrug off a Judas bullet (the only bullet that could pierce his skin in season 2, powerful enough to blast a man in a bulletproof vest in half.)

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In terms of blunt force, blows from unenhanced humans have been repeatedly shown to have absolutely no effect on him, and Luke has taken far worse blows than anything T'Challa has ever dished out, including having no-sold massive explosions that he was at the center of. He even shrugged off a point-blank bomb blast from a Hammertech bomb: technology designed using Chitauri material, the same stuff used to make Judas bullets and Diamondback's super-suit. The same type of Hammertech bomb put ripped a truck to shreds and put Bushmaster (another enhanced human with durability enough to tank bullets) on the brink of death.

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He also took multiple direct hits from Danny's Iron Fist (that's striking power to which T'Challa cannot even begin to compare; see below) and was only briefly incapacitated. When braced for one, he even took an Iron Fist to his open palm on purpose as a double-team technique without so much as budging.

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All this is to say, Luke is almost comically tanky, T'Challa would be hard-pressed to put him down even in a one-on-one encounter. That's not to suggest Luke is unbeatable, as super strong opponents have pressed him before, but I believe this is more than sufficient evidence to prove that it is going to take a lot from T'Challa to even get close to that point. This is probably going to be a big sticking point in the debate.

Luke has super-strength to match as well, and is the physically strongest of the bunch, but I don't want to dwell on Luke too much so I will provide a few examples of his well-known physical strength and we can focus more on it later if necessary. I don't imagine it will be contested that between Jessica, Luke, and Danny, my team has the striking power to put down T'Challa given his lack of durability feats outside of the Vibranium suit.

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(in the original clip you can actually hear the dude bang against the ceiling)
(in the original clip you can actually hear the dude bang against the ceiling)
Imgur really didn't want me to make this one so I went with Giphy
Imgur really didn't want me to make this one so I went with Giphy
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That's all on Luke for now. Like I said, I don't expect to be contested on the fact that damaging T'Challa won't be a concern for my team.

Iron Fist:

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Danny is probably the weakest Defender, and certainly the least mentally stable, but also one of the most skilled and probably the fastest, not to mention his critical signature technique, which is the single hardest-hitting attack any one of these five combatants can dish out. The damage dished out by the Fist is easily enough to down T'Challa- way overkill, in fact, if going at full-force. Granted, Danny is not bloodlusted here, so he won't be firing off a full-force punch right off the bat, but he has proven repeatedly that he is willing to use the Fist directly on an opponent if necessary, especially a superpowered one like Luke or Elektra. Given that my team has knowledge on T'Challa's capabilities, he will be going in prepared to fight an opponent with superhuman stats and thus it should be open season on the Fist.

First things first: Danny is a highly skilled martial artist with over a decade of experience in K'un-Lun focused almost entirely on his training. He has proven himself capable of overwhelming multiple skilled fighters at once in close quarters- even while injured (as shown in his fight to escape the Hand compound, where he was suffering from a stab wound).

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In season 2, Colleen even trained Danny specifically on fighting while coping with injuries, to the point where Danny was able to fight at his ordinary level even while healing from a broken leg.

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Danny is not the most physically threatening guy out there, but he is nevertheless much tougher than your average fighter and has a number of impressive physical feats. He has proven himself capable of powering through enemy strikes without slowing down, has one-shot men in body armor, and had the endurance to fight Davos for an entire day while battling for the right to face Shou-Lao.

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(Three flashbacks to this fight clearly showed that it started during the day, continued into the night, and finished with the sun shining outside)
(Three flashbacks to this fight clearly showed that it started during the day, continued into the night, and finished with the sun shining outside)

Despite Danny's physical disadvantage, I feel he has enough of a skill advantage to fight T'Challa at length even without the Fist, and his speed can compete as well. Danny has consistent aim dodging feats and even one instance of straight-up bullet timing, right at the end of the latest season.

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For the most part this is icing on the cake, though, to prove that Danny has the skill and physicals to last long enough to use his signature, the Iron Fist technique itself. This is his ace in the hole has a ton of feats to prove that its striking power can do more damage than anything T'Challa can either dish out or take.

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The big one.
The big one.

Even one standard-issue Iron Fist would be a serious hit for T'Challa- I wouldn't buy him getting up from a second. Danny has also made use of shockwaves numerous times to use the Fist as a ranged attack, and he can use the Fist multiple times in a single fight- even going so far as to use it for hours during a single night of training or keep the fist lit up for the entire duration of a fight.

The Gameplan:

As it stands, I believe my team's collective advantages are more than enough to take T'Challa down. Matt and Danny are both superior martial artists to T'Challa, with the speed and skill to compete, even if they can't overcome his physical advantages on their own. That said, Matt, wearing his suit and billy club in hand, is more than capable of focusing T'Challa's attention in combat while the less skilled (not incompetent, mind you) Luke and Jessica contribute muscle to wear him down.

Worst comes to worst, Danny has a solid shot of winning in a 1-on-1 match just by resorting to the Iron Fist. With everything else T'Challa has to worry about here, it is unlikely he is going to be able to get around this kind of trump card. A few good hits from Danny are all it would ultimately take.

I will let you take it from there.

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@gearsecond659: You're up! Future posts won't be as long, of course, but four fighters are a lot of ground to cover for an opener.

Good luck!

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#18 Posted by Amendment50 (14335 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by _KingofLatveria (17518 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by ANTHP2000 (21946 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice.

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#21 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Amcu (14393 posts) - - Show Bio

Surprising that T'Challa is suitless. Tag me after every post.

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#23 Posted by ANTHP2000 (21946 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:

Surprising that T'Challa is suitless. Tag me after every post.

You think it'd be fair if he had his suit?

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#24 Posted by Amcu (14393 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:

Surprising that T'Challa is suitless. Tag me after every post.

You think it'd be fair if he had his suit?

Hmm thinking on it I don't know that that would be fair. Lets not debate in this thread though.

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#26 Posted by deactivated-5bd0d99b6c6f7 (1676 posts) - - Show Bio

HELL YES... TV4!!!!! PLEASE!

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#27 Posted by Latis (114 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by geekryan (2940 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after every post

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#31 Posted by CelestialKnight (1369 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after every post, please.

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#36 Posted by CreoleCuddy (697 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after every post please.

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#37 Edited by jayc1324 (26013 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v this looks really good

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#38 Posted by Aka_aka_aka_ak (2548 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V but I feel the need to say here (hopefully this doesn't count as interfering) that on the surface this seems like a mismatch to me (in favour of The Defenders).

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#39 Posted by Amendment50 (14335 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by Jagerzi (334 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#46 Posted by Amendment50 (14335 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Edited by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: Sorry for the long wait and I hope it is a good read.

T'CHALLA | THE BLACK PANTHER

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BIO

Born the Prince of Wakanda, an isolationist country located in Africa with the largest supply of vibranium in the world, the mantle of Black Panther, the protector of Wakanda, was passed down to T'Challa. After his father's death at the bombing at the United Nations, T'Challa became King.

RAW STRENGTH

In terms of raw strength, I believe that T'Challa holds the advantage over the Defenders. In fact, I think T'Challa is more than capable of giving heavyweights like Luke Cage and Jessica Jones a run for their money.

T'Challa's best feat of physical might was when he casually overpowered the Winter Solider's bionic arm. This is particularly impressive because Winter Solider can tear through thick metal restraints with that same bionic arm. This is a strength feat that any of the Defenders would be hard pressed to replicate, let alone replicate it casually.

Captain America: Civil War
Captain America: Civil War

Now you may be wondering how this feat is combat applicable. Well, raw strength is very useful in physical struggles with opponents, and since I have already established that T'Challa is physically superior to the Defenders, if the fight comes down to a grappling match, T'Challa will easily take the win. Luckily for him, it is very in character for Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, two of the strongest Defenders, to engage in grappling matches with their opponents, as can be seen below.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Essentially, it is in character for Jessica Jones and Luke Cage to engage in struggles, which will be to their detriment given T'Challa's strength advantage. Not to mention his merciless mindset in this fight, which will ensure that he tears them limb from limb should it come down to a battle of raw power.

As for the other two Defenders, who just so happen to be the weakest in terms of strength, Daredevil and Iron Fist are polar opposites to Luke Cage and Jessica Jones and likely won't engage in grapples with T'Challa. Luckily, T'Challa has exemplified a proactive approach in regards to grappling, as can be seen with Killmonger when he engages in a struggle with him.

Black Panther
Black Panther

Thus, what you should take away from this section is that regardless of who T'Challa is fighting, once the battle turns to CQC, you can bet your top dollar that grappling will be involved, and given T'Challa's impressive strength feats and his morals, it is very likely he will end the fight then and there.

STRIKING STRENGTH

While I have established that raw strength will play a key role in this fight, striking strength is the most important aspect of strength in not just this battle, but any battle. And fortunately for me, T'Challa has this in spades.

In my opinion, T'Challa's best striking strength feat is when he hit a mercenary with such force that his collision with an armored vehicle heavily dented it. While this scene was partly off screen, that doesn't negate its impressiveness as a feat by any stretch of the imagination.

Black Panther
Black Panther

To breakdown why this feat is impressive, I must establish one thing. If you hit something/someone with such force that they cause a certain amount of damage, then your physical blows must be capable of much more damage than that. For example, if you punch someone so hard that they crack concrete, you should be more than capable of cracking concrete with your punches, and then some. Thus, T'Challa's strikes should be capable of much more attack potency than heavily denting an armored vehicle, which is already an impressive feat in its own right.

Now, I know that you may be eager to compare T'Challa to Iron Fist in terms of striking strength, but before you do, there is a fallacy I want to debunk. And this fallacy is the notion that we should measure ones striking strength based on the shockwaves they create, which is simply fallacious. With this train of thought, Iron Fist would be a high tier of the verse in terms of striking strength and on an equal playing field with people like Thor Odinson and Hulk. Doesn't sound right does it?

With that said, instead of solely looking at the potency of shockwaves as a metric as to ones striking strength, let's look at the potency of Iron Fist's physical blows. Iron Fist's best feat in this regard was when he heavily dented a metal door.

Iron Fist Season 1
Iron Fist Season 1

And while it is a good feat, it is less impressive than denting an armored vehicle. And again, this was a result of the collision between the mercenary and the vehicle, and not a direct result of T'Challa's blows, meaning that he is capable of much greater attack potency.

So, at least in my opinion, T'Challa holds the advantage in striking strength. And this is very detrimental because this means that T'Challa could quite literally one shit every single Defender barring Luke Cage, who would still be reeling from T'Challa's blows like he was with Iron Fist's.

SPEED

This is one of T'Challa's biggest advantages in this fight and is a real game changer in my opinion. To get right into it, T'Challa is a casual bullet timer, having effortlessly cut a bullet out of the air at point blank range.

Marvel's Black Panther Prelude #1
Marvel's Black Panther Prelude #1

This feat is far above the tier of even the fastest Defenders, that being Iron Fist and Daredevil, who are just high end aim dodgers. The disparity in speed is profound between that of T'Challa and the most nimble Defenders, let alone the slowest members: Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. And before you say reaction speed doesn't equate to combat speed, cutting a bullet out of the air is a combat speed feat because T'Challa would have to have had moved with the bullet in order to cut it out of the air, as it would require unparalleled amounts of timing, perception, and bodily movement speed.

Therefore, T'Challa will quite literally be dancing around the Defenders with Daredevil and Iron Fist finding it really hard to land any strikes and Luke Cage and Jessica Jones not being able to tag T'Challa one time. Not to mention, T'Challa's combat speed is insane to the point that he can blitz through all of the Defenders, a tactic that he is likely to indulge in given his lack of morals in this fight.

CONCLUSION

Now, I purposely left out the durability and skill sections due to one crucial fact: the disparity in speed. T'Challa is just too fast for the Defenders to handle, and T'Challa's martial art prowess is just the icing on the cake. All in all, T'Challa's speed advantage will do him a good service, and until my opponent can prove that the Defenders can somehow avoid getting speed blitzed, I rest my case.

All in all, T'Challa wins for the following reasons:

  • T'Challa holds the advantage in raw strength, so when the battle comes down to a physical struggle, which it will factoring the fighting style of each character, T'Challa will quite literally tear each Defender limb from limb
  • T'Challa has the edge in striking strength, allowing him to practically one shot glass canons like Daredevil, Iron Fist and Jessica Jones and even heavily stagger bricks like Luke Cage
  • T'Challa has a huge advantage in speed, in both reaction and combat, allowing him to outmaneuver and blitz the Defenders with relative ease.

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#48 Posted by deactivated-5bdcbb8da1d15 (5093 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by mexcomics2078 (1361 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#50 Posted by Amendment50 (14335 posts) - - Show Bio

@gearsecond659: Nice post. Will get to working on a counter. Good luck!

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