CaV: MCU Punisher (Amendment50) vs. MCU Peggy Carter (ANTHP2000) - OPEN FOR VOTES!

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#51 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#52 Posted by The_Red_Devil (5082 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP.

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#53 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Agent Carter // Counters

No Caption Provided

Alright, some good stuff for Frank here. Let's get right to it...

Hand to Hand Combat

Now in this area, you did your best to compare Frank's showings with Peggy's, and I agree with your means of comparison, their fodder wrecking scenes and their fights with Matt and Dottie respectively. Now, as a result of these comparisons, I still think Peggy comes off as a significantly better martial artist.

Based just on the training of the fodder these two have gone up against, I think Frank has demonstrated just as much technical skill in H2H as Peggy against numerous opponents. Frank's H2H performance is definitely bolstered by his sheer physicality but that is a strength, not a weakness, and I find it misleading when I see him characterized as a brute fighter that does not employ H2H skill. In the Punisher, the vast majority of opponents Frank fights have substantial military training and Frank consistently demonstrates H2H superiority.

Frank clearly isn't as one dimensional as CV is making him out to be these days - I want to take note of that. Now, first off, while you did prove that Frank can certainly fight off groups of trained fighters, 2-3 people at once, I think the quality of the fighters matters a lot here. Peggy has fought just as many opponents as Frank has in his best fights and she has remained untouched almost every time - but most of the time, she also goes up against operatives that should be more impressive than the people running around in Hell's Kitchen, the people Frank is usually fighting. The best we've seen Frank do is fight decently skilled mercenaries. Peggy's gone up against agents of the SSR, stated specifically to be part of a tactical team of the most advanced agency in the world and didn't even allow them to touch her. She's fighting the S.H.I.E.L.D. of her time, and while that's not quite as impressive as your modern agency, I do think it's more noteworthy than taking on your average mercs or military veterans, which Peggy's proven she can effectively do more than once. These are spec ops that Peggy's fighting, not regular military trained individuals;

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I definitely think Frank would need to soak up some damage if he was unarmed and locked up with a solid handful of these fighters. I can elaborate on that later, but more or less, for every showing we have from him swifting his way through these situations, there's one where he needs to act like the sponge he is and brute force his way out of it. For instance, one of Frank's most badass showings from Daredevil Season 2 where he takes out about 9 prisoners Fisk sent to kill him, he ends up half dead. And yes, the numbers are greater here than in any fight Peggy's been in, but just look at how much easier it is for her to take out 4-5 government agents, who by my estimation should be at least twice as good as an everyday criminal locked up in Hell's Kitchen.

In terms of technical skill, I think Peggy's showings are better here than Frank's. And while fighting canon fodder is a solid baseline for comparing fighters, we also have their fights against highily trained individuals, agile martial artists trained from a very young age - Matt and Dottie.

On the subject of Daredevil, though, I think this makes for a pretty solid comparison to Dottie- I would definitely argue that Matt's training should be better than Dottie's considering he was also trained from childhood by immortal an immortal ninja with literal centuries of experience. Frank showed an edge against Matt multiple times when the pair fought, including nearly KO'ing Matt purely in H2H in their first encounter:

Now, I'm NGL, even by his time in Daredevil Season 1 - early Season 2, when he fought Frank, Matt should be better than Dottie in raw hand to hand combat. I'd say Dottie's more advanced as an individual overall, but martial arts is indeed only part of her training, whereas it's pretty much Matt's primary focus. He also has more impressive combat feats than Dottie, like taking down a few cops while handcuffed with no real issue. The thing is, I still believe Dottie's comparable to Matt, and Peggy performed so much better against her than Frank did against Matt as long as we're discussing skill and the amount of blows each of them landed.

Let's look at Frank's first fight with Matt: without exaggeration, DD lands a good 20ish punches and kicks on Frank, juxtaposed with Frank's few - most of Frank's attempts were dodged too. You already stated that Matt lands an undeniably bigger amount of blows, but I can't focus on that enough.

While Daredevil undeniably lands many more hits on Frank, you need to consider that Frank is trying to punch through body armor, so you can only chalk up so much to Frank's raw strength.

The reason of it definitely isn't just Matt's armor, because even with the armor on, Frank still looks better than Matt physically. Frank basically powers through and breaks Matt because he's far too physically imposing (something we'll get to right after). This is the same case with Peggy, probably even worse, but unlike the combatants on that roof, Peggy and Frank are bothing armed here, they're armed with knives, which Peggy's trained with (take a look at this swift disarm!). I think you've proven Frank can keep fighting after a hell of punishment, even when up against bladed weapons, but I wouldn't count Peggy landing hits on vital spots (the neck for instance) out so easily at all. If Daredevil actually used bladed weapons instead of his fists or blunt sticks, he would more than likely be able to finish off Frank before long given he was literally dancing around him quite a lot before getting ragdolled by a good grip and put down. Wether or not Matt is as good as Peggy (I think it's up for debate, but even if Matt is better, they're definitely roughly comparable) doesn't matter much, because Frank definitely didn't keep up with Matt because of his skill - only. He soaked up every hit landed in the face, in the guts etc. and powered through. He cannot afford to do that against someone as capable as Peggy in anatomy and martial arts. She knows the right spots to hit to weaken him and take him down before long, and she should have the speed and the experience to land those hits, all the while having the strength to sufficiently press Frank with her kicks and/or punches.

It is a massive stretch to compare Dottie to Frank based on this statement. There is a big difference between being able to withstand torture... and being able to withstand torture like the Punisher. This is a man who has been getting bled out for hours, who got a drill to the foot,

The way you're presenting Frank's showings here definitely leads me to concede Frank's a lot more tanky that Underwood, so I'll just hold back here with what I said and focus on Peggy actually being able to affect Frank with her hits and support her main form of offence - knife fighting. Peggy constantly sends grown men flying extreme distances:

Marvel One Shot: Agent Carter
Marvel One Shot: Agent Carter

and with the use of improvised, let alone actual, weapons, she's proven more than once that she can put down people like Dottie - and yes we agree that she's not necessarily comparable to Frank, but the lady's still practically immune to feeling pain through her training. She got injected with truth serum and she didn't even flinch, all the while remaking that using tools to pull off her nails, teeth and hair would be nothing but wasting her time. It's damm impressive that Peggy can produce enough force to mess her up with her bare hands.

Finally, in regards to Peggy's durability, you're right she's nowhere near Punisher's level, but she's still shown she can fight after been shot on the leg and keep going like nothing happened. It should be sufficient to keep her in the game against Frank both at range and in close quarters. Additionally, she's shown she can take dozens of hits from someone who can snap necks with zero effort, so even if she does get tagged by Frank in melee, she should be able to shrug it off, unless it's a very good grip he pulls off on her, which I don't see happening.

Firefight & Stealth

Now this is where things get trickier. They both have their fair share of advantages, but I think Carter has enough tools at her disposal to overcome Frank's quickdraw. First off, I want to defend and elaborate on Peggy's accuracy. While Frank is a better sniper than Peggy, I think she's better with handguns "shot-by-shot".

As a good parallel to one of your best showings for Peggy, Frank lands a headshot on a driver of a moving car. Admittedly a shorter distance than Peggy's feat, but unlike Peggy, Frank actually lands multiple consecutive shots including as the car is pulling around to the side of him, forcing him to change his angle on a moving target.

That's a great showing of Frank's adaptability, and I think it's your most impressive showing for Frank's accuracy with handguns. I definitely think Peggy has outdone this. First off, comparing it to her own feat against a driver, it's worth noting that the distance is more than twice greater on her feat, and that the window of the cab the driver she shot would make it harder to actually view him clearly enough to put a bullet in his head. This is basically Peggy's POV 2 seconds before she took the shot (meaning the car would be even farther away when she landed it):

Captain America: The First Avenger
Captain America: The First Avenger

This is impressive pinpoing accuracy, moments after the HYDRA agent set off an explosive behind her exactly to throw her off, impair her senses and give himself time to escape. Despite all that, Peggy landed that ridiculous headshot. In terms of sheer accuracy, I think that's just as good, if not better than anything Frank's pulled off with light arms - I think him shooting Matt in a specific spot in the head is overlooked. But this car feat you showed is particularly impressive because he tactically kept up with the path of the speeding car and kept landing shots on the driver after it switched angles. I think Peggy has a more imrpessive showing than this too;

Marvel One Shot: Agent Carter
Marvel One Shot: Agent Carter

Peggy started shooting at the door while the guard was already closing it, meaning she had to adjust to the change of the angle as much as Frank, but in this case, more accurately too. Frank was shooting the man inside the car, not at a specific spot, but just his body. Peggy actually forms a perfect circle on the door to open a hole inside. And she does not miss a single shot while shooting close enough to each of the holes to make into one big hole. Also worth noting that she herself was moving towards the door too, she wasn't stationary. Overall, I definitely think Peggy has the advantage in terms of raw accuracy here.

More importantly, he has a much wider breadth of examples of rapid-fire gunplay in combat settings and landing lethal shots while being shot at himself, a tactical scenario Peggy does not seem to have replicated much. I think Frank has more than enough showings to justify me saying that he could land a lethal shot if she were to poke out of cover just as easily as the reverse if not more easily.

And aside from that, everything else being equal, Frank's reaction times for drawing and lining up shots are demonstrably superior- much superior in fact- to Peggy. Meaning that Frank has a solid edge from the start, when they draw their weapons, and any time the two of them face off trying to land shots on one another.

I can't disagree with this much. Frank has better draw speed than Peggy for sure. I do want to bring up an instance of her taking out a group of well trained soldiers head on though:

Agent Carter: The Iron Ceiling
Agent Carter: The Iron Ceiling

As part of a mission for the SSR, Peggy took some agents and the Howling Commandos to investigate the Red Room facility where Dottie was trained in, and unknown to them, there were trainees in there as well as fully grown operatives working for the agency. Again, a covert agency that rivals the SSR should produce soldiers more dangerous than regular mercenaries. Peggy took out 3 of them in quick succession using a heavier arm than what she has here, hitting them all the while they were popping out of cover trying to shoot her back. Obviously, I don't think that's something Frank couldn't replicate, but it's still noteworthy enough that Peggy can keep up in a tactical scenario like this, where both combatants are bound to abuse cover, and wouldn't be out of her depth.

I'm sure you knew I was gonna pull this one out- Frank can draw his weapon and drop six men before a single one can react, even though multiple opponents already had guns drawn themselves (and one was aiming straight at him).

I do want to note that this might not be as impressive as it initially looks - it's demonstratably impressive rapid firing, but it's worth noting that most of the thugs don't have their guns raised. Here's a small analysis from the @the_magister:

One of Frank's guys didn't even have a gun - he had a knife. And when Frank starts shooting, nobody has their guns up. To elaborate... when Frank opens fire the first guy still has his hand at his side. It is only after Frank opens fire that the guy has his pistol raised.

Take a look:

The lead henchman does NOT have his gun raised, and is basically just smack-talking before Frank opens fire
The lead henchman does NOT have his gun raised, and is basically just smack-talking before Frank opens fire

After the initial cut, we see the henchmen while Frank is firing:

The lead henchman now has his pistol raised, only AFTER Frank opens fire
The lead henchman now has his pistol raised, only AFTER Frank opens fire

And this is the cumulative end result:

No Caption Provided

Basically it's only 2 people holding pistols when Frank starts shooting, and they aren't even in an offensive position. I think this is better visual draw speed than what Peggy has, but I wouldn't say it's an overwhelming advantage, at least not when I throw in money on her better use of stealth, which we'll get into right now.

Frank can handle a direct firefight, but don't underestimate him in stealth either. He is a soldier with a soldier's training after all, and Cerberus Squad was specifically a covert ops team. Frank uses stealth all the time and in direct combat; in fact, I reckon he has much better showings in this category than Peggy does, and in the context of combat where his opponents know he is in the area, as is the case with this fight.

Alright here's the thing: Frank does use stealth often in his gunfights and tactical scenarios, which this setup undoubtely calls for. But in terms of quality, I think Peggy's training as a Master Spy an SSR Agent shows, as in she's simply a lot more sneaky if she has to. What I mean by that is, while Frank is trained in what can be considered peak real life stealth, use of the environment and good awareness, Peggy's stealth resembles a lot that of modern SHIELD and HYDRA special agents like Black Widow and the Winter Soldier or expert ninjas like Stick and Elektra. Take a look at this:

Marvel One Shot: Agent Carter
Marvel One Shot: Agent Carter

She's nowhere to be seen the moment the guard steps out of the building looking for her. And less than 4 seconds later she appears right next to him pointing a gun in his head. Looking at the location, I think it's clearly that this type of stealth is impossible, it is pretty bullsht fictional physics - and that's the point. Both this, and (I'd argue), Peggy's other showing I posted, show stealth usage particularly comicbook-ish, that disappear in thin air-reappear in seemingly superhuman speeds act? It's lowkey what she does. To my recollection, we've never actually seen that from Frank. His stealth showings are limited to grounded and logical levels - Peggy's espionage training allows for more freakish stuff than what the Punisher has shown, and that's why I believe she could outmaneuver him in a scenario like this.

Peggy does use stealth the way you've shown too, not in actual firefights but mostly to steal stuff or spy on people, because of the nature of her show, and I can provide the showings if needed in my closing post, but I think this is a much higher level of "ninjutsu" we're talking about. The closest to what Frank's done to this based on your showings is when he clears an almost pitch dark room of mercs, but even that's not quite up there considering all Frank had to do is have better awareness than the nameless soldiers in there.

Conclusion

I do stand by the advantages I mentioned in my opener. Peggy should be a better martial artist by a solid margin, allowing her to outfight Frank and put him down - Peggy's entire fighting style revovles around hitting very weak spots of the body, and her fights with Dottie and the higher quality operatives than what Frank's fought should be evidence that she can apply this knowledge and technical skill on Frank. At range, while he has a noteworthy advantage of draw speed and general gunplay, she definitely has the keener eye and the ability to move around the battlefield better, quite feasibly stay undetected and land a headshot to take him down.

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#54 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#55 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Will read through this later.

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#56 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#57 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio
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#58 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#59 Posted by Subline (9030 posts) - - Show Bio

lol

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#60 Posted by Darkthunder (3417 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#61 Posted by deactivated-5d0b495e7009f (1844 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#62 Posted by HulkBusterx9 (2172 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: what does TEAP mean?

Online
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#63 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: oh I missed the TAEP from ya.

@hulkbusterx9 it means they want to get tagged after each post is made.

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#64 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Whoa!

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#65 Posted by blackpantherisb (7420 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP, I now rate both Peggy and Frank much higher than I previously did. This is a good debate.

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#66 Posted by King-Ragnar (4630 posts) - - Show Bio

Smh, so much female wank.

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#67 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@king-ragnar: Mhm.

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#68 Posted by Amendment50 (15813 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher: Counters

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Hand-to-Hand:

I want to start by saying, I actually don't think it's entirely unreasonable to think that Peggy has more hand to hand skill than Frank. I don't agree, but Peggy does have some solid showings. While she does have more limited showings than Frank, I do think what you have provided is in line with her status as a legendary founding member of SHIELD.

But the primary purpose of my hand-to-hand comparison is to argue that Frank's level of CQC skill is competition for Peggy, not that he blows her out of the water. If we started from the assumption that Frank is just some unskilled brick, I could see someone taking the approach that Peggy would simply bob and weave around attacks without getting hit, as you have shown her doing with regular old fodder. And I feel that Frank is too skilled by a very wide margin for anything like this to happen. In my opinion it is the combination of his high level of skill with his superior physicals that can carry him through a H2H fight with someone like Peggy- it could with Daredevil after all, and he is quantifiably highly superior to Peggy in every way. That said, I personally do believe that Frank is a better hand to hand combatant than Peggy, an advantage he unarguably does not have over Daredevil.

but most of the time, she also goes up against operatives that should be more impressive than the people running around in Hell's Kitchen, the people Frank is usually fighting. The best we've seen Frank do is fight decently skilled mercenaries. Peggy's gone up against agents of the SSR, stated specifically to be part of a tactical team of the most advanced agency in the world and didn't even allow them to touch her. She's fighting the S.H.I.E.L.D. of her time, and while that's not quite as impressive as your modern agency, I do think it's more noteworthy than taking on your average mercs or military veterans, which Peggy's proven she can effectively do more than once. These are spec ops that Peggy's fighting, not regular military trained individuals

This is the area where I would start to really contest the comparisons you are making. While I can't deny that Frank gets tagged more than Peggy in his hand-to-hand fights, I think you are making a real logical leap by elevating the quality of the fodder that Peggy has fought to be measurably above the level of the fodder Frank has fought. The characterization of "decently skilled mercenaries" is simply not an adequate dismissal of Frank's opponents for me. While, particularly in Daredevil, we saw Frank taking on lower level mobsters and the like, the truth is that the majority of Frank's fights have been against true-blue soldiers of the highest caliber, not hobbyists with some H2H training. Spec ops is what we're talking about here. Billy Russo even described Anvil as being made up entirely of special forces.

"All my operators and instructors are former Special Forces. A government contract here, on US soil, would be a big deal for us."

-Billy Russo, Punisher S1E02

The SHIELD of Peggy's time (and even to an extent modern SHIELD) is just a wing of the US military; I mean, Cap himself was simply pulled from U.S. Army infantry recruits, and that's the origin of his training. I understand that you have a gut inclination to feel that the people from the SHIELD side of the MCU should automatically have superior training, but realistically I don't see why there is any tangible reason to infer that the SSR has combat training different from the Army in Peggy's era. The Howling Commandos, Cap's WW2 team, were SSR, and they were simply a tactical team of former P.O.W. infantrymen, not Navy SEALS, not the most advanced soldiers in the military or anything. In terms of the training these guys actually have it doesn't just not make sense for them to be better than modern day Marines and special forces- it doesn't make sense for them to be equals or even very close.

I don't say this to suggest that Peggy's showings aren't good displays of hand to hand skill, but your logic that Peggy has fought worse opponents doesn't hold up.

I definitely think Frank would need to soak up some damage if he was unarmed and locked up with a solid handful of these fighters. I can elaborate on that later, but more or less, for every showing we have from him swifting his way through these situations, there's one where he needs to act like the sponge he is and brute force his way out of it.

I do think it is reasonable to think that Frank would have to tank a few hits in a situation like this diner fight, but even still, going untagged in this situation isn't beyond his capabilities. Simply sponging up damage without applying skill is exactly the characterization I disagree with. And your example here is easy to rebut.

For instance, one of Frank's most badass showings from Daredevil Season 2 where he takes out about 9 prisoners Fisk sent to kill him, he ends up half dead. And yes, the numbers are greater here than in any fight Peggy's been in, but just look at how much easier it is for her to take out 4-5 government agents, who by my estimation should be at least twice as good as an everyday criminal locked up in Hell's Kitchen.

There is simply no other way to say it; this is is just completely dead wrong. Unless by "half-dead" you mean tagged a grand total of five times, only once with a weapon (and twice while actively distracted), there is just no reading of this scene that suggests Frank was anywhere remotely close to his limit during this prison fight. He was covered almost entirely with other people's blood; the most serious wound he took was being stabbed in the arm, and he has taken so much worse than that, even just in Daredevil season 2, that it's hardly even worth mentioning. Frank was not close to death after the prison fight; by Punisher standards he was barely hurt at all. If you want "close to death" you should be looking at the fight against Billy Russo's gang from Punisher season 2 that I linked above, an encounter where he was injured to the point of being in critical condition in an ambush before the actual fight began, and then cleared out a squad without taking significantly more damage in the fight itself. And he walked away from that.

I do not generally like to pick apart fight scenes frame by frame, I sometimes find it kind of disingenuous, but I feel the need to discredit this prison fight comment. Maybe you are just remembering the fight wrong- I know the image that sticks in the mind is Frank covered head-to-toe in blood (it's not his!) and being dragged out by prison guards (he is submitting to the guards, but he is demonstrably capable of still standing, which is how he ends the fight). But if that's the case, you need to watch it again. Frank dodges, blocks, and counters far more attacks than he tanks during the prison encounter. The first time he is tagged, it is being stabbed in the arm in order to protect his face. The second time, he is punched in the face because he is distracted by pulling the knife out of his arm. The three other hits occur in rapid succession as part of one string of attacks, a kick followed by two punches while he is momentarily stunned, that is landed because he was focused on the opponent he was looming over. In actuality, the knife is the only attack in the prison fight that he powers through intentionally, and the other two instances only happen because he is distracted by another opponent and are ultimately inconsequential.

Compare this to Peggy's fight in the diner and her advantages compared to Frank are pretty clear in my opinion. Not only does she have backup while fighting a smaller number of opponents, but this is also fighting people in quick succession rather than near simultaneously, aided by the far less claustrophobic arena and the fact that Peggy has already gotten a read on her opponents beforehand.

Frank has multiple opponents incoming at once in an extremely confined space, forcing him to deal with the attacks of other opponents while dealing with a target.

No Caption Provided

Peggy, on the other hand, while, impressively taking people down in rapid succession, is never actually engaging with more than one opponent at once or within half-second intervals. People are trying to close in across the diner, but each guy is still trying to recover while she engages the other in H2H. Meaning that there is less for her to worry about at once, and in a less confined space than Frank. While it's true that she was never tagged, she also had to deal with far fewer attacks from fewer opponents and under less strenuous conditions.

No Caption Provided

I will grant, of course, that these guys are bound to be more skilled than the prisoners, but not moreso than Billy Russo's gang, which Frank was also able to fight off while at the incredibly significant disadvantage of his extreme injuries.

Anyway I've spent long enough dwelling on this comparison. I don't really think that Peggy is showing off anything in this fight that Frank wouldn't be fully capable of.

The other issue at hand here for H2H skill is the comparison between Dottie and Daredevil, and it honestly feels like even more of a stretch to me, to the point where the comparison is nearly baseless.

Now, I'm NGL, even by his time in Daredevil Season 1 - early Season 2, when he fought Frank, Matt should be better than Dottie in raw hand to hand combat.

I'll say.

I'd say Dottie's more advanced as an individual overall, but martial arts is indeed only part of her training, whereas it's pretty much Matt's primary focus. He also has more impressive combat feats than Dottie, like taking down a few cops while handcuffed with no real issue. The thing is, I still believe Dottie's comparable to Matt, and Peggy performed so much better against her than Frank did against Matt as long as we're discussing skill and the amount of blows each of them landed.

This is where you just have to ask: like... why? Based on what can you claim that Dottie is comparable to Matt? It sounds to me like you are underrating Daredevil a lot. I mean, you already know I think Matt is a match for Black Widow, so we definitely evaluate him differently. But even so. As a passing comparison of Matt and Dottie's ambiguous training, yes, there is some parallel. This was my initial point, to bolster the evidence that Frank has fought well-trained opponents. But I didn't expect that this was going to be a full blown comparison. Where can you possibly draw an actual direct comparison between these two fighters? Matt can dodge close range machine gun fire, stomp squads of ninjas. Even accounting for improvement between fighting Punisher and keeping up with Black Sky Elektra (whom we both know there is absolutely no comparison to likes of Dottie and Peggy) Daredevil has incredible speed and skill showings that Dottie cannot match. In fact the only impressive skill showing at all that you have given for Dottie is being able to fight Peggy herself! Vague comparisons of their training can only account for so much, it doesn't take into consideration individual variation, their natural talent/skill, or any other factors.

So, yes, while Peggy did perform better against Dottie than Frank did against Matt (and not even that much better mind you; she was tagged numerous times, so not weaving around attacks like she does with fodder), this was against an opponent that we can't realistically quantify in comparison to Matt.

The reason of it definitely isn't just Matt's armor, because even with the armor on, Frank still looks better than Matt physically. Frank basically powers through and breaks Matt because he's far too physically imposing (something we'll get to right after)

I do agree that Matt's armor did not entirely level the playing field with respect to durability, but my point is that Frank's skill was a necessary element at play in their encounter. And Matt is substantially faster than either Peggy or Dottie for the sake of comparison.

The main problem I have with this is you are still trying to use Daredevil as a baseline as though there is some comparable gap between Frank and Peggy's skill to the one between Frank and Matt's. Again, while I acknowledge that there is a reasonable argument to be made that Peggy may have a slight skill edge on Frank (one I still don't agree with and honestly feel I have debunked fairly thoroughly), what I don't find reasonable is the stretch that it's anything more than a slight edge.

Wether or not Matt is as good as Peggy (I think it's up for debate, but even if Matt is better, they're definitely roughly comparable)

No, they're not. This is simply not a fair equivalency to draw. Peggy doesn't have any feats on par with DD as a fighter nor does Dottie to my knowledge.

If Daredevil actually used bladed weapons instead of his fists or blunt sticks, he would more than likely be able to finish off Frank before long given he was literally dancing around him quite a lot before getting ragdolled by a good grip and put down

Even though Frank can demonstrably tank dozens of knife attacks, this is still probably true, but again, that doesn't mean it translates to Peggy at all.

Frank definitely didn't keep up with Matt because of his skill - only. He soaked up every hit landed in the face, in the guts etc. and powered through. He cannot afford to do that against someone as capable as Peggy in anatomy and martial arts. She knows the right spots to hit to weaken him and take him down before long, and she should have the speed and the experience to land those hits

Peggy does probably have the experience to go for lethal knife attacks, but the whole crux of my H2H argument is that she is not going up against some helpless opponent in that respect. Frank has training and experience dealing with knife attacks and has done it numerous times even when he himself was unarmed (Example 1, Example 2). If her opponent couldn't compete skill-wise, then sure, she could finish an opponent off quickly, but the exact same thing is true for Frank. The problem is that Peggy doesn't have enough skill showings to be able to justify that Frank could not even defend his most vital areas in a struggle. But the circumstances aren't the same for Peggy; she can't just keep fighting if she gets stabbed in the stomach or chest, and that damage is going to stack up quick.

The way you're presenting Frank's showings here definitely leads me to concede Frank's a lot more tanky that Underwood, so I'll just hold back here with what I said and focus on Peggy actually being able to affect Frank with her hits and support her main form of offence - knife fighting. Peggy constantly sends grown men flying extreme distances

I'm not going to lie, this feat of kicking a dude through the window is a very good striking feat. I don't know if I would call it 'extreme', and it's inferior striking to the likes of Fisk (who can put a fist sized dent in brick and smash through walls) who Frank can walk off a beating from, but her strikes should be able to reel Frank. But Frank can reel her, too, so this is not really an advantage.

with the use of improvised, let alone actual, weapons, she's proven more than once that she can put down people like Dottie - and yes we agree that she's not necessarily comparable to Frank, but the lady's still practically immune to feeling pain through her training. She got injected with truth serum and she didn't even flinch, all the while remaking that using tools to pull off her nails, teeth and hair would be nothing but wasting her time. It's damm impressive that Peggy can produce enough force to mess her up with her bare hands.

Yeah, I really just don't agree with this. While I appreciate the concession, I still feel like you are trying to equate pain tolerance with actual durability. Dottie's ability to withstand torture doesn't necessarily speak to her ability to continue fighting through battle damage, which is what Frank's many showings demonstrate. Peggy being able to get a reaction of pain from Dottie is okay I guess, but not really all that quantifiable, unless you have more durability showings for Dottie. As a showing for being able to fight durable opponents, I just don't see it.

Finally, in regards to Peggy's durability, you're right she's nowhere near Punisher's level, but she's still shown she can fight after been shot on the leg and keep going like nothing happened. It should be sufficient to keep her in the game against Frank both at range and in close quarters.

Tanking a shot to the leg is very nice and maybe it will even allow her to power through a shot or a knife but as we both agree, not remotely close to what Frank can take in turn.

Additionally, she's shown she can take dozens of hits from someone who can snap necks with zero effort, so even if she does get tagged by Frank in melee, she should be able to shrug it off, unless it's a very good grip he pulls off on her, which I don't see happening.

I mean, Frank can snap necks with zero effort. Though I do agree that Peggy should be able to at least tank some strikes from Frank. But just as you yourself have mentioned, knife fighting is going to be the focus at close quarters and Peggy is way more vulnerable to it than Frank is.

Firefight & Stealth:

For me, the bottom line with this gunfight is, accuracy is secondary- very secondary- to draw speed under these conditions. Granted, landing a headshot is a lot more critical for Peggy than it is for Frank, but I don't see how she'll pull that off after she's already been shot in the chest and wounded. So while I do think Frank's accuracy with handguns should be defended (because he can definitely hit her, and hit her before she hits him, especially with her relative lack of aim dodging compared to Frank), I don't think it's nearly as important as Frank's established ability to ready and fire before she can.

That's a great showing of Frank's adaptability, and I think it's your most impressive showing for Frank's accuracy with handguns. I definitely think Peggy has outdone this. First off, comparing it to her own feat against a driver, it's worth noting that the distance is more than twice greater on her feat, and that the window of the cab the driver she shot would make it harder to actually view him clearly enough to put a bullet in his head.

It's worth noting that the car in Peggy's showing is moving in essentially a straight line away from her- the reason she waits to shoot is because she is taking her time to line up a good shot. Even while the target is getting smaller, she doesn't really need to change angle as long as she can line up a kill shot, which is why she took the necessary time to line it up rather than shoot as quickly as possible. But I just say that to add a bit of context- I don't mean to downplay it, because I absolutely agree with you that this is better as a raw accuracy showing than Frank's feat that I provided as a parallel. But the difference between these two feats also highlights Frank's advantage- Frank lines up and lands his shot quickly while in the middle of a firefight, as opposed to Peggy who was able to take her time and wasn't in immediate danger.

Despite all that, Peggy landed that ridiculous headshot. In terms of sheer accuracy, I think that's just as good, if not better than anything Frank's pulled off with light arms

I agree with this. What I don't think is really fair is this sharp line in the sand that you've drawn between accuracy as a sniper and accuracy with handguns. While it's true that these weapons require different expertise, it is an established fact that Frank has expertise with both handguns and heavy arms. This is in conjunction with the fact that he specifically knows how to shoot with extreme precision using handguns, and has substantial experience with long distance shooting that has been demonstrated with other weapons. Considering Frank's wide range of firearm expertise, I think it's kind of unfair to use a lack of specifically long-distance handgun shooting feats as evidence that his accuracy is inferior. To my knowledge Frank has never been in a situation where he needed to try to snipe someone with a pistol, and based on his other feats of precision, and his specific training for taking out targets at range, I think it is only reasonable to suggest that Frank has the necessary skills to pull off long distance handgun shots.

With that said, especially taking into consideration Peggy's other showing which is a strong example of accuracy at mid-range, I can concede an advantage for Peggy in terms of raw accuracy with small. But in all honestly, there really aren't any circumstances in this fight where this advantage matters, because Frank can still land a kill shot on Peggy at this same range, and faster.

I do want to bring up an instance of her taking out a group of well trained soldiers head on though:

As part of a mission for the SSR, Peggy took some agents and the Howling Commandos to investigate the Red Room facility where Dottie was trained in, and unknown to them, there were trainees in there as well as fully grown operatives working for the agency. Again, a covert agency that rivals the SSR should produce soldiers more dangerous than regular mercenaries. Peggy took out 3 of them in quick succession using a heavier arm than what she has here, hitting them all the while they were popping out of cover trying to shoot her back. Obviously, I don't think that's something Frank couldn't replicate, but it's still noteworthy enough that Peggy can keep up in a tactical scenario like this, where both combatants are bound to abuse cover, and wouldn't be out of her depth.

Yeah, this is alright, and I definitely don't mean to suggest that Peggy can't keep her head in a firefight; she did lead a team of soldiers after all. But as a comparison to Frank, I really don't think it's a great one considering Frank with a machine gun can literally hunt and gun down an entire enemy squadron by himself. Frank has way more experience in this area and situations like this fight are more familiar to him.

I do want to note that this might not be as impressive as it initially looks - it's demonstratably impressive rapid firing, but it's worth noting that most of the thugs don't have their guns raised. Here's a small analysis from the_magister:

All due respect to the_magister, he is guilty of plain old downplaying, and I know he shares your bias of AoS characters so don't @ me (i love you i'm sorry)

...Seriously though:

One of Frank's guys didn't even have a gun - he had a knife.

First of all, this point is just a stupid one to make. He didn't have a gun drawn, that does not by any means imply he didn't have a gun, and considering who these guys are and what they're here to do, it's more likely that he would have one.

But I also see the frame-by-frame dissection of this feat as an outright misdirect. As though there is some way to suggest that this feat is anything other than Frank out-drawing six men at once- which is exactly what it is, period. Even if Frank had simply drawn and killed two guys when neither of them had their guns drawn, it would be an impressive draw speed feat, because pulling out your gun, lining up a shot and pulling the trigger, then lining up another shot on a second target, is maneuvering faster than two shooters at the same time. In this case Frank does it to six people, and not one of them is able to fire a shot.

The lead henchman does NOT have his gun raised, and is basically just smack-talking before Frank opens fire

Before Frank unholsters his weapon, not just before he opens fire.

This is merely on top of the fact that Frank is not only out-drawing people, but out-drawing them when multiple opponents already have their guns out. Not even drawing and lining up a shot faster than they can, but drawing and lining up a shot faster than they can just line a shot up having already drawn. Even if the guy in front does not have his gun raised, the fact that we see it raised when it cuts back to the men means that even while this guy had his gun raised at Frank, Frank is able to kill the guys next to him and then him before he can so much as pull the trigger. This shit is insane, seriously. Seeing it lowballed like it's no big deal makes my eyes roll back into my head.

I think this is better visual draw speed than what Peggy has, but I wouldn't say it's an overwhelming advantage

I absolutely think it is an overwhelming advantage. Especially when we consider that Peggy has no such feats of any kind, at least as far as I have seen. No feats to my knowledge of out-drawing even a single opponent on even ground, let alone six while at a disadvantage. There are really no grounds for saying Peggy is anywhere close to this at all or even that she has any above-average draw speed to begin with, aside from charitable assumptions. I would wager Frank could land multiple shots on her while her gun is still holstered. Peggy's odds are better if she immediately goes for cover, which is where the stealth/environmental awareness debate comes in.

Alright here's the thing: Frank does use stealth often in his gunfights and tactical scenarios, which this setup undoubtely calls for. But in terms of quality, I think Peggy's training as a Master Spy an SSR Agent shows, as in she's simply a lot more sneaky if she has to. What I mean by that is, while Frank is trained in what can be considered peak real life stealth, use of the environment and good awareness, Peggy's stealth resembles a lot that of modern SHIELD and HYDRA special agents like Black Widow and the Winter Soldier or expert ninjas like Stick and Elektra.

I think I can understand the point you are making here, but I totally disagree. In my opinion Frank's stealth feats are not only more plentiful but much better, not to mention particularly relevant for this scenario.

Take a look at this: She's nowhere to be seen the moment the guard steps out of the building looking for her. And less than 4 seconds later she appears right next to him pointing a gun in his head. Looking at the location, I think it's clearly that this type of stealth is impossible, it is pretty bullsht fictional physics - and that's the point. Both this, and (I'd argue), Peggy's other showing I posted, show stealth usage particularly comicbook-ish, that disappear in thin air-reappear in seemingly superhuman speeds act? It's lowkey what she does. To my recollection, we've never actually seen that from Frank. His stealth showings are limited to grounded and logical levels - Peggy's espionage training allows for more freakish stuff than what the Punisher has shown, and that's why I believe she could outmaneuver him in a scenario like this.

I hate to be the guy that pulls up a photoshopped picture with a red circle on it (seriously, I do hate that, I hate it very much, and I hate you for making me do this, what have you done to me, oh god what have I become, what will my parents think of me) but just take a look:

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It's an elevated platform. He ducks under the counter, then he goes outside looking for her, and she puts a gun to his head. I mean... like... is there any reason why she can't have just ducked under the ledge? Or hidden somewhere off screen?

My point is, I understand that this scene has the overall feel of something more... spy-y... than Frank, but I don't understand how anything superhuman or even particularly impressive is being implied here. The fact that the camera follows the man rather than Peggy doesn't mean anything in and of itself. And, I mean, what is it that you think is going on here? Unless you think Peggy can turn invisible or something, I don't know what there is to interpret about this scene other than that Peggy hid behind a wall or something and then revealed herself when necessary. There is nothing on display here that is above Frank's level, and it seems like it's your only real substantive stealth showing that could be combat-applicable for Peggy.

Frank using stealth against opponents in pitch blackness, or under cover of smoke, demonstrates a higher level of environmental awareness and tracking of his opponents than anything here seen for Peggy. I mean if you don't think it's impressive that Frank is tracking mobsters or soldiers with poor visuals, that's fine, but why am I supposed to be impressed by Peggy tracking one hapless security guard in a well lit area? I don't think Peggy's stealth showings are anywhere near as good as Frank's.

Gameplan:

You've made some good points, but I don't think you've really solidified any advantages for Peggy. Though you have conceded his abilities to some extent, I still think Frank's hand to hand skill is being substantially downplayed considering how heavily the skill gap between Frank and Matt has been referenced. Actual skill showings between Frank and Peggy really don't demonstrate much of a gap at all and the skill differential you've drawn between the trained fodder each of them has fought doesn't make logical sense in universe. We've both agreed that Frank has a draw speed advantage and a large durability advantage, so I still think it's pretty clear that no matter how this fight goes, Frank has the upper hand. He will land shots much faster in a firefight and even non-lethal gunshots will impact Peggy more than Frank. He will be able to track Peggy better from stealth and is much more capable of getting the drop on her than the reverse. And if it came down to hand-to-hand, all Frank really needs to stab Peggy to death is have enough skill to keep a knife out of his throat in the meantime, which he is more than capable of. All signs point to a tidy victory for the Punisher, I say.

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@anthp2000: There you go, and nice debating so far! This is good fun and it's making me want to give Punisher a full rewatch, haha. How many posts total are you thinkin'?

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#70 Posted by BladeOfFury (3402 posts) - - Show Bio

After descending from heaven and blessing The Walking Dead with his holy presence, MCU Punisher decided to enter the world of Daredevil and would later go on to be literally the best live action character in the history of television. He is a master at prison fighting and also shoots people with guns sometimes, or something.

After casually wiping the floor with Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, the Punisher will now grace this battle with his transcendent multiversal+ busting presence, if Peggy's eyes do not simply melt out of their sockets the first time she gazes upon his visage that is. To begin I will talk about some of his more modest galaxy-universe level feats and we will work our way up from there...

It's Punishing Time:

Damn, I was so hoping this continues

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#71 Posted by Amendment50 (15813 posts) - - Show Bio

@bladeoffury: True believers already know all about Punisher's Suggsverse-tier feats so I figure it's unnecessary to belabor the point.

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#72 Posted by BladeOfFury (3402 posts) - - Show Bio
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#79 Posted by Amendment50 (15813 posts) - - Show Bio
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#80 Posted by MErulezall (3835 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50: Well done with your posts, I'm really impressed with them!

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#81 Posted by Amendment50 (15813 posts) - - Show Bio
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#82 Posted by King-Ragnar (4630 posts) - - Show Bio

Smh with these Bible long posts. Use spoiler blocks damn it.

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#83 Posted by Amendment50 (15813 posts) - - Show Bio
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#84 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#85 Posted by Amendment50 (15813 posts) - - Show Bio
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#86 Posted by IndomitableRegal (16875 posts) - - Show Bio

Pfft. Anth dropped out? I was here ready to not vote but root for Peggy...

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#87 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#88 Posted by IndomitableRegal (16875 posts) - - Show Bio
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#89 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#92 Posted by IndomitableRegal (16875 posts) - - Show Bio
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#93 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

Goddammit.

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#94 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#95 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2: Agent Carter // Closing Post

Bow to the Britishness.
Bow to the Britishness.

Hand-to-Hand Combat

To say some stuff before everything, I definitely don't think Frank is an unskilled brute or a brick; a better term would be a sponge, he soaks up damage but is actually a solid fighter. You did concede that Frank gets tagged more than Peggy, and I think that's pretty much proving my point. In terms of technical MA skill, I consider Peggy superior, by a margin. Not a huge one as long as Frank is on top of his game, but a margin nonetheless.

This is the area where I would start to really contest the comparisons you are making. While I can't deny that Frank gets tagged more than Peggy in his hand-to-hand fights, I think you are making a real logical leap by elevating the quality of the fodder that Peggy has fought to be measurably above the level of the fodder Frank has fought. The characterization of "decently skilled mercenaries" is simply not an adequate dismissal of Frank's opponents for me. While, particularly in Daredevil, we saw Frank taking on lower level mobsters and the like, the truth is that the majority of Frank's fights have been against true-blue soldiers of the highest caliber, not hobbyists with some H2H training. Spec ops is what we're talking about here. Billy Russo even described Anvil as being made up entirely of special forces.

I think I didn't express my point entirely correctly. Frank does fight special forces and people just as capable as the opponents Peggy's gone up against, SSR agents and renowned hired muscle. But he doesn't do it as effectively when he does. As you did show in your opener, Frank can deal with higher level opponents 1 on 1 and 2 on 1, and even outmaneuver them rather easily; but what happens when he goes up against groups of 4/5 of them? Even more spread across the area?

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This is actually pretty consistent with Frank - and I wanna make that clear because I don't want it come off as lowball, he has to soak up some damage. He is good at soaking up damage, inhumanly good, but he still has to. The Russian's group were working for the Mafia, so I do think they're not just standard thugs anyway, but they're not special forces, they're not the best opponents Frank's fought either. This is 4 of them here and they're throwing around Frank for a good while. The fight is incredibly physical. He gets knocked down, slammed against objects, punched - it's not something you'll ever see Peggy doing, and it's not because she hasn't been in spots as difficult as this, it's because she is more technical:

Agent Carter:
Agent Carter: "A View in the Dark"

I've already shown this in my opener, these are mercs hired by a billionaire to guard the lab that secure what's probably the most dangerous substance in the world, so they should be pretty formidable like the Mafia's criminals. There is 4 of them as well, they are big, really big too, two of were carrying guns that they were going to use and another one was armed with a crowbar. Peggy only got bearhugged and punched for 1 second, but she takes them all down rather efficiently besides that. She outmaneuvers them hard and doesn't have to soak up noticable amage. They tried to kill her and they drew weapons, and another thing to note is that the Russians were ordered to bring in Frank alive.

When you compare 2 scenes like those, I think you can see that Frank's not as proficient as Peggy on a technical level, not as fluid. You've already shown that Frank can weave through attacks whlie at a numbers disadvantage, you posted his fight in the bar's bathroom and you've shown him fighting groups of unarmed civilians too, and he struggled as much there as Peggy did in the above fight. When Peggy goes up against groups of 2 or 3 guards and mercs, she deals with them even easier, you won't see her get touched even once and she will drop them in 10-15 seconds tops because she also knows the right spots to hit to put down the opponents well case in point her fights in Marvel's One Shot before her show, [1], [2]

I chose to compare the dinner and the prison fights cause they're the larger scale (and the most badass) fights these 2 have been in, and I do think the comparison stands to an extent in those scenes as well. I think my point is evident overall. When Peggy faces larger numbers of similar opponent, she does better, just as she does better when up against smaller numbers of similar opponents.

Another important distinction to make, her movements are plain more precise than Frank's, it's not just just punching, hitting and stabbing like a savage when you find the opening, it's a lot more effective. We also already saw a hint of her knowledge in human anatomy and how she knows well the easiest and fastest of ways to kill a human with a blade. I think this is why she doesn't struggle as much to put down fodder as Frank, and she doesn't allow them to overwhelm him. As you noted for the dinner fight, the people she hits are still recovering while the others are coming. That's not necessarily a bad thing compared to the Punisher; it's a testament to how effective Peggy's moves can be that she won't allow numbers to be a problem. I have to say that Frank is, again, not a mindless dude who doesn't know what he's doing, but he's deonstratably not as precise as Peggy either.

The SHIELD of Peggy's time (and even to an extent modern SHIELD) is just a wing of the US military; I mean, Cap himself was simply pulled from U.S. Army infantry recruits, and that's the origin of his training. I understand that you have a gut inclination to feel that the people from the SHIELD side of the MCU should automatically have superior training, but realistically I don't see why there is any tangible reason to infer that the SSR has combat training different from the Army in Peggy's era. The Howling Commandos, Cap's WW2 team, were SSR, and they were simply a tactical team of former P.O.W. infantrymen, not Navy SEALS, not the most advanced soldiers in the military or anything. In terms of the training these guys actually have it doesn't just not make sense for them to be better than modern day Marines and special forces- it doesn't make sense for them to be equals or even very close.

I don't agree with this. Even the SHIELD of modern time is only taking in the very best of the world and gives them extra training. This is more fleshed out in Agents of SHIELD but their training also has a huge dropout rate. I mean, just a hint of it, Coulson described his agents as some of the most highily trained professionals in the world and thought Thor must have had SHIELD training to be able to deal with them. It is a wing of the U.S. Military, but it's also the most advanced, the earth's last line of defence besides the Avengers. They're definitely better than soldiers or even Navy Seals. And while all this doesn't necessarily apply to the SSR, it is also heavily implied IMO that they're better than any standard military soldier. The Chief describes his men, the same men that Peggy put down, as highily trained government agents, a tactical team. They made a point about this. It's true that I don't think these people are necessarily better than modern day special forces, but they should definitely be comparable. They are, after all, the special forces of their own time.

I do think it is reasonable to think that Frank would have to tank a few hits in a situation like this diner fight, but even still, going untagged in this situation isn't beyond his capabilities. Simply sponging up damage without applying skill is exactly the characterization I disagree with. And your example here is easy to rebut.

You analysed this part really well tbh, so I won't question this. And you're right, the image that sticks in my head is him covered in blood and lying on the floor, so half dead is an exaggeration. I do want to point out that getting tagged a total of 5 times is not all that needs to be said; he powered through a lot of damage as usual. I mean, 5 seconds in the fight he got stabbed in the chest. Then punched and knocked down. A few more times afterwards - not all hits are the same. Peggy did get tagged in a fight scene I posted above for instance, but it did nothing, just a punch in the face. I think it's important to note that Frank struggled with those hits, making them more significant than just "tags". All that said, I can't disagree with the rest. I did make my point about the dinner fight above and why Peggy doesn't deal with too many of them simultaneously, so I think this is covered.

This is where you just have to ask: like... why? Based on what can you claim that Dottie is comparable to Matt? It sounds to me like you are underrating Daredevil a lot. I mean, you already know I think Matt is a match for Black Widow, so we definitely evaluate him differently. But even so. As a passing comparison of Matt and Dottie's ambiguous training, yes, there is some parallel. This was my initial point, to bolster the evidence that Frank has fought well-trained opponents. But I didn't expect that this was going to be a full blown comparison. Where can you possibly draw an actual direct comparison between these two fighters? Matt can dodge close range machine gun fire, stomp squads of ninjas. Even accounting for improvement between fighting Punisher and keeping up with Black Sky Elektra (whom we both know there is absolutely no comparison to likes of Dottie and Peggy) Daredevil has incredible speed and skill showings that Dottie cannot match. In fact the only impressive skill showing at all that you have given for Dottie is being able to fight Peggy herself! Vague comparisons of their training can only account for so much, it doesn't take into consideration individual variation, their natural talent/skill, or any other factors.

I do think Matt is a match for Black Widow, and therefore well past Peggy or Dottie.. but let's be real, the Daredevil that fought Frank is not comparable to his current level, at all. Dottie or Peggy aren't anywhere near Elektra's level indeed, neither is Frank. The monumental improvement be his fights with Frank and his fights with the Hand is not just hinted on, it's directly stated by the writers and the cast:

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Charlie Cox himself said that in order to fight the Hand, Matt had to "Hone his skills, be better, stronger, faster than he's ever been before". This is further supported by the fact that Nobu was destroying him S1, but Matt could drop him by the end of S2. It is also evident by how well he did against the greatest ninja of the organisation in The Defenders. Frank just doesn't compare to this fight, he doesn't compare to the Matt that could stomp entire groups of ninja.

The level at which we saw Daredevil operating during S1 is the level of Daredevil that fought the Punisher. And while he was still a solid combatant back then, what did he really do that's so beyond Peggy? He did swiftly defeat 3 cops in handcuffs, but I just don't think that's a league above what Peggy's done at all, and it's honestly way better than anything else he did at that point. And I don't think it's a league above a Red Room graduate, someone trained since childhood in many different ways to kill with her bare hands, either. Unfortunately, outside of her fights with Peggy, Dottie doesn't have exposure enough to compete with Daredevil's feats, because the other fights she have are pretty generic fodder fights where she's forced to hold back. But I think she is comparable to Daredevil by S1 as far as raw MA skill goes on account of logic and training alone. I really don't think we've seen Daredevil before he fought Frank do stuff outside of Peggy's capabilities - excluding physicals, like damage soak or agility and raw strength. Focusing purely on hand to hand, he was not too impressive like he currently is.

I do agree that Matt's armor did not entirely level the playing field with respect to durability, but my point is that Frank's skill was a necessary element at play in their encounter. And Matt is substantially faster than either Peggy or Dottie for the sake of comparison.

Honestly, why is he substancially faster though, as far as combat speed goes? He seems to deal with groups of opponents not much, if at all, better than Carter. He more than likely has better reactions, esspecially on account of his radar sense, but that's secondary to skill and movement speed, where the gap doesn't seem that big to me.

So, yes, while Peggy did perform better against Dottie than Frank did against Matt (and not even that much better mind you; she was tagged numerous times, so not weaving around attacks like she does with fodder), this was against an opponent that we can't realistically quantify in comparison to Matt.

I disagree, she did perform much, much, much better in terms of skill. They landed a very even amount of hits. Peggy did not outmaneuver her like fodder of course, she still matched her blow for blow and even outhit her at points, managing to put her down at the end. I think you're underestimating how much better Matt was than Frank as a fighter.

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Like, it really wouldn't even be close without Frank's tankiness and strength in play. The hit ratio alone; Matt lands over a dozen of hits and takedowns, Frank just powers through without much damage, he gets up, tanks some more, he eventually gets Matt and manhandles him, then finishes him off with a mighty punch. At most, Punisher lands 3 hits? Matt lands 15 or so, at some points it's a constant beatdown.

I've already admitted that Frank would pretty clearly manhandle Peggy in a cage fight, he'd put her down just as easily as she put down Matt here. She doesn't have the physicals to compete with him. A knife however changes it all. You agreed that Matt would've probably taken down Frank pretty convincingly with a bladed weapon instead of his fists. Peggy has that here. Honestly, even assuming she's half the martial artist Daredevil is or less (which isn't really true), she's still noticably better the Frank. I think she can stick that knife where she has to and win. Again, I'm not basing this just off of Frank's fights with Matt, it's just something to note since you brought it up as a showing of skill - I think it speaks more to how tankish he is than how good he is as a fighter. Clearly it takes skill to effectively put him down, since Fisk, who is stronger than Frank, struggled more, but is it really so impressive?

I'm not going to lie, this feat of kicking a dude through the window is a very good striking feat. I don't know if I would call it 'extreme', and it's inferior striking to the likes of Fisk (who can put a fist sized dent in brick and smash through walls) who Frank can walk off a beating from, but her strikes should be able to reel Frank. But Frank can reel her, too, so this is not really an advantage.

That's more or less the point I'm trying to make, so we agree. At least a good number of Peggy's unarmed hits can affect Frank and throw him off balance.

Tanking a shot to the leg is very nice and maybe it will even allow her to power through a shot or a knife but as we both agree, not remotely close to what Frank can take in turn.

Again, we agree. I just want to prove that Peggy won't be helpless against possible damage output.

I mean, Frank can snap necks with zero effort. Though I do agree that Peggy should be able to at least tank some strikes from Frank. But just as you yourself have mentioned, knife fighting is going to be the focus at close quarters and Peggy is way more vulnerable to it than Frank is.

We agree here too, but I don't really think she's more vulnerable. She's more vulnerable in a contest of damage soak, but not a fight. I explained it above.

Firefight and Stealth

Draw speed is important, but with Frank and Peggy is it really primary? I mean, they can both react to each other in a shoutout. Draw speed mostly matters in the very beginning of an exchange, but there's a lot of cover here and a lot of options. I think what mostly matters here is a shot-for-shot accuracy, because that's what it's going to come into sooner or later. I think Peggy has the advantage on that.

What I mean by a shot-for-shot advantage, take for instance the feat I posted where she shoots a hole open on a closing door. The angle is really difficult for pinpoint accuracy, and she doesn't miss a single spot to form a perfect circle in a moving target. Honestly, I think people often overlook these showings in favor of ultra impressive marksmanship and snipers and sht, but I value this more. Pinpoint shots on moving targets for an extented period of time is not something many can do.

(especially with her relative lack of aim dodging compared to Frank)

What aim dodging are you referring to for Frank?

It's worth noting that the car in Peggy's showing is moving in essentially a straight line away from her- the reason she waits to shoot is because she is taking her time to line up a good shot. Even while the target is getting smaller, she doesn't really need to change angle as long as she can line up a kill shot, which is why she took the necessary time to line it up rather than shoot as quickly as possible. But I just say that to add a bit of context- I don't mean to downplay it, because I absolutely agree with you that this is better as a raw accuracy showing than Frank's feat that I provided as a parallel. But the difference between these two feats also highlights Frank's advantage- Frank lines up and lands his shot quickly while in the middle of a firefight, as opposed to Peggy who was able to take her time and wasn't in immediate danger.

I can agree with this, but I also want to note that the target had just set off an explosion right next to Peggy's position to impair her senses and throw her off as well as the fact that she used only 1 arm to make this shot.

What I don't think is really fair is this sharp line in the sand that you've drawn between accuracy as a sniper and accuracy with handguns. While it's true that these weapons require different expertise, it is an established fact that Frank has expertise with both handguns and heavy arms. This is in conjunction with the fact that he specifically knows how to shoot with extreme precision using handguns, and has substantial experience with long distance shooting that has been demonstrated with other weapons. Considering Frank's wide range of firearm expertise, I think it's kind of unfair to use a lack of specifically long-distance handgunshooting feats as evidence that his accuracy is inferior. To my knowledge Frank has never been in a situation where he needed to try to snipe someone with a pistol, and based on his other feats of precision, and his specific training for taking out targets at range, I think it is only reasonable to suggest that Frank has the necessary skills to pull off long distance handgun shots.

I actually really don't disagree with this at all, you misunderstood me. I feel like with someone as inhumanly skilled and talented with firearms as Frank (specifically someone on this level) shouldn't be hintered much switching between light and heavy arms as far as accuracy goes. With someone as good as him, his hand-eye co ordination matters more than his training with specific weapons - he's a beast. I think something similar applies to Peggy.

All due respect to the_magister, he is guilty of plain old downplaying, and I know he shares your bias of AoS characters so don't @ me (i love you i'm sorry)

AoS sucks currently. Moving on, okay I agree with yrou analysis to a degree. What I don't agree with is that it is an overwhelmingly good showing here. It is more visually impressive than anything Peggy has, but quantifiably, he didn't exactly outdraw an entire group of people. They didn't all have their arms drawn out and clearly didn't expect Frank to go full ham like that. This is really necessary to point out.

I absolutely think it is an overwhelming advantage. Especially when we consider that Peggy has no such feats of any kind, at least as far as I have seen. No feats to my knowledge of out-drawing even a single opponent on even ground, let alone six while at a disadvantage. There are really no grounds for saying Peggy is anywhere close to this at all or even that she has any above-average draw speed to begin with, aside from charitable assumptions. I would wager Frank could land multiple shots on her while her gun is still holstered. Peggy's odds are better if she immediately goes for cover, which is where the stealth/environmental awareness debate comes in.

I disagree. The showing I gave for Peggy in my last post shows sufficient tactical shooting and reaction/draw speed in a firefight. I mean, it's the end of the shoutout, all the Howling Commandos have left and she is alone with at least 3 soldiers coming from both sides of the other end of the room. The moment they are popping out to shoot her, she puts them down. Sure, Peggy doesn't open fire like Frank so fast and fancy in an open environment, but this shows she can keep track of multiple attackers from 2 sides of the room who are completely battle-ready and just as well equipped as her, without even abusing cover, but instead just standing in the middle of the area.

I absolutely agree it's not a showing beyond Frank, but I disagree that it's not enough evidence to show that Peggy can rival Frank's draw speed and tactical shooting for an extented period of time, to a degree where her better accuracy will matter.

My point is, I understand that this scene has the overall feel of something more... spy-y... than Frank, but I don't understand how anything superhuman or even particularly impressive is being implied here. The fact that the camera follows the man rather than Peggy doesn't mean anything in and of itself. And, I mean, what is it that you think is going on here? Unless you think Peggy can turn invisible or something, I don't know what there is to interpret about this scene other than that Peggy hid behind a wall or something and then revealed herself when necessary. There is nothing on display here that is above Frank's level, and it seems like it's your only real substantive stealth showing that could be combat-applicable for Peggy.

I mean okay, so she ducks under the platform, the guy gets out looking for her and 3 seconds later she's pointing a gun to his head. The vibe you get is there because it is exactly that, it's more advanced stealth. Even going by your assumption, the feat is still "superhuman" - I haven't seen Frank doing something like getting out of cover, climbing a small platform and crossing over a dozen feet, all in 3 mere seconds, without making a sound - this is by timer, no exaggeration. As for situational awareness and tracking down movements, even in order to do that, she would have to know the exact moment the guy turned around, without exposing herself. I think you're underestimating how impressive it is, I absolutely think it's beyond Frank.

And I mean, that's just following the logical path too. I think it's intented to be like one of those ghosting ninja scenes that Batman does as a classic - we don't need to put too much thought into it either, it just happens. We've seen it other times in the MCU too, Black Widow and Hawkeye and agents of SHIELD have done it a lot. Elektra and Stick and (I think) Daredevil have done it etc. Peggy's feat isn't anything extreme by higher ninja-ish standards, but Frank's stealth is demonstratably more grounded in my eyes. It's advanced military training, using the environment tactically and stuff. It's not what Peggy does above for me, or better. I think the small number of showings Peggy has are more impressive than Frank's and quantity shouldn't be valued more than quality. That is not to say that Frank's stealth isn't impressive, I just don't think it's as good.

Conclusion

I still think Peggy has those few advantages I've mentioned, and I think they're deciding factors. Frank is a physical beast, and he's a highily trained fighter, but looking at the average, Peggy is noticably more technical. She can not only land the first hit, but I think she can land the right hits too. With the knife battle, she can bypass Frank's damage soak up close, all the while she packs enough punch to assist her task of hitting the vital points she needs to, by staggering and/or reeling Frank with her hits. At range, I still think Peggy's tactical shooting is just as much of an advantage as Frank's draw speed. Frank won't be pulling the trigger hundreds of times faster than Peggy in the middle of the fight. I doubt it's going to be as much of a game changer as you expect it to be. Her ability to pinpoint targets mid-movement is about as relevant here, and her espionage training I believe evidently shows she has a better chance of outmaneuvering him in such a location than the other way around, doubling her chances of landing a killshot.

Also, when all's said and done, Peggy's canon to the movies, which Frank isn't, so she wins. Inb4 all that timeline bs from Endgame to prove her feats don't count.

@amendment50 it is finally up!

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#96 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio
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#97 Posted by Amendment50 (15813 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher: Second Counters/Closing Post

No Caption Provided

Time to wrap it up!

Hand-to-Hand:

To say some stuff before everything, I definitely don't think Frank is an unskilled brute or a brick; a better term would be a sponge, he soaks up damage but is actually a solid fighter. You did concede that Frank gets tagged more than Peggy, and I think that's pretty much proving my point. In terms of technical MA skill, I consider Peggy superior, by a margin. Not a huge one as long as Frank is on top of his game, but a margin nonetheless.

Right. I think we are about on the same page regarding what the other thinks about this point. I still consider Frank to be a more skilled fighter, mostly due to the context of his fight scenes, which are generally more demanding than Peggy's (and I will still be getting into more below), but I can still understand where you are coming from in believing Peggy to be superior in H2H skill just as I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from.

I think I didn't express my point entirely correctly. Frank does fight special forces and people just as capable as the opponents Peggy's gone up against, SSR agents and renowned hired muscle. But he doesn't do it as effectively when he does. As you did show in your opener, Frank can deal with higher level opponents 1 on 1 and 2 on 1, and even outmaneuver them rather easily; but what happens when he goes up against groups of 4/5 of them? Even more spread across the area?

Okay, well, if this is the point you are making, then I don't think it communicates all that much of a skill gap. Once again I feel the need to point out that the example you're showing for the sake of comparison doesn't translate 1:1.

This is actually pretty consistent with Frank - and I wanna make that clear because I don't want it come off as lowball, he has to soak up some damage. He is good at soaking up damage, inhumanly good, but he still has to. The Russian's group were working for the Mafia, so I do think they're not just standard thugs anyway, but they're not special forces, they're not the best opponents Frank's fought either. This is 4 of them here and they're throwing around Frank for a good while. The fight is incredibly physical. He gets knocked down, slammed against objects, punched - it's not something you'll ever see Peggy doing, and it's not because she hasn't been in spots as difficult as this, it's because she is more technical:

You say Peggy has been in spots as difficult as the gym fight, but I don't think any of the fight scenes you have shown for Peggy have been as difficult as this, and certainly not the scan you posted for contrast. Peggy definitely gets tagged less than Frank here, but not only were Frank's opponents more aggressive, they were way more physically imposing even relative to Frank's physical strength. In my opinion this is not contestable.

I've already shown this in my opener, these are mercs hired by a billionaire to guard the lab that secure what's probably the most dangerous substance in the world, so they should be pretty formidable like the Mafia's criminals. There is 4 of them as well, they are big, really big too, two of were carrying guns that they were going to use and another one was armed with a crowbar. Peggy only got bearhugged and punched for 1 second, but she takes them all down rather efficiently besides that. She outmaneuvers them hard and doesn't have to soak up noticable amage. They tried to kill her and they drew weapons, and another thing to note is that the Russians were ordered to bring in Frank alive.

Two of these mercs have guns, but both of them close in for melee without actually trying to shoot at Peggy. One actively pulls it out in striking distance of Peggy while the other charges in without his gun pointed at her. Peggy is caught in a grab once and struck twice (the two blows are less clear in gif form), but it has no measurable effect. The guy who grabbed her has no leverage because is holding onto her coat while she fights the other guy across from her, whereas Frank's opponent, who is clearly much stronger, actually had him in a grab he could not easily escape from. And Peggy's guys are not physically anything to write home about, certainly not at least compared to Frank's fodder. I mean, one of them is pretty big (not muscular, mind you, but big), but this really is not remotely comparable to the literal bodybuilders that Frank had to deal with, who honestly have ridiculous top-tier physicals for fodder characters, shrugging off having their skulls bashed with 25 pound weights and worse. The final guy in the grey sweatshirt was literally able to no-sell attacks from Frank - that's clearly an enormous disadvantage when you are comparing the difficulty Frank had in this fight scene to the difficulty Peggy had against the mercenaries guarding the lab. I don't think that Peggy would have had nearly as easy a time fighting the mercs if they had the physicals of Frank's bodybuilder opponents, and I definitely don't think that her superior performance can be chalked up entirely or even primarily to superior technical skill. And even with all that said, Frank landed far more blows than were dealt to him even when he was caught in grabs, and out-maneuvered this entire group, physical strength and all.

When you compare 2 scenes like those, I think you can see that Frank's not as proficient as Peggy on a technical level, not as fluid. You've already shown that Frank can weave through attacks whlie at a numbers disadvantage, you posted his fight in the bar's bathroom and you've shown him fighting groups of unarmed civilians too, and he struggled as much there as Peggy did in the above fight. When Peggy goes up against groups of 2 or 3 guards and mercs, she deals with them even easier, you won't see her get touched even once and she will drop them in 10-15 seconds tops because she also knows the right spots to hit to put down the opponents well case in point her fights in Marvel's One Shot before her show, [1], [2]

I chose to compare the dinner and the prison fights cause they're the larger scale (and the most badass) fights these 2 have been in, and I do think the comparison stands to an extent in those scenes as well. I think my point is evident overall. When Peggy faces larger numbers of similar opponent, she does better, just as she does better when up against smaller numbers of similar opponents.

I take some issue with this argument about "fluidity". I don't think the examples we have been comparing have been examples of Peggy just weaving around the same number of opponents as Frank while taking fewer hits. I still feel like I need to constantly point out the different contexts of their fights, because at the end of the day Frank is usually being pushed much harder. Frank does take an errant hit in a fight once in a while, while the same can't really be said for Peggy, and I don't deny that - and the bathroom fight is a good example of that. But I think it's a big mistake to attribute Frank being tagged more often entirely to his inability to dodge attacks as well as Peggy. Frank dodges attacks, quite deftly, as much as if not more than Peggy, who usually seems to block and counter hand-to-hand attacks rather than evade them.

I already pointed this out in comparing the prison fight to the diner scene, but engaging in small repeated 1v1 bouts in close quarters is not the same thing as having to fight off multiple opponents attacking from multiple angles or charging in while you are already occupied. Peggy's examples are way less taxing for her skills because she doesn't really need to consistently weave around attacks from multiple opponents at the same time, just from a single opponent while other opponents are getting up off the floor or in some cases just waiting for her to finish up with someone else. Context, context, context. I don't really feel like there are any fight scenes for Peggy that can be realistically compared to the more demanding fights Frank has been in, and I feel like the fact that the two instances of Peggy being tagged in the above fight were in the moment where she was double-teamed by two guys is just evidence of the fact that she is usually advantaged by the arrangement and positioning of her opponents.

Another important distinction to make, her movements are plain more precise than Frank's, it's not just just punching, hitting and stabbing like a savage when you find the opening, it's a lot more effective. We also already saw a hint of her knowledge in human anatomy and how she knows well the easiest and fastest of ways to kill a human with a blade. I think this is why she doesn't struggle as much to put down fodder as Frank, and she doesn't allow them to overwhelm him. As you noted for the dinner fight, the people she hits are still recovering while the others are coming. That's not necessarily a bad thing compared to the Punisher; it's a testament to how effective Peggy's moves can be that she won't allow numbers to be a problem. I have to say that Frank is, again, not a mindless dude who doesn't know what he's doing, but he's deonstratably not as precise as Peggy either.

This one feels like an attempt to counter my above argument but I don't really see how it is reflected in her fight scenes. She is not a pressure point user, she frequently resorts to punches to the face or stomach or elbow strikes; it's all stuff that Frank regularly does. If there were examples of her specifically using anatomical knowledge to do additionally damage that would be one thing, but if you are saying she is punching for specific cheekbones or something, I don't think that's canonically supported.

I don't agree with this. Even the SHIELD of modern time is only taking in the very best of the world and gives them extra training. This is more fleshed out in Agents of SHIELD but their training also has a huge dropout rate. I mean, just a hint of it, Coulson described his agents as some of the most highily trained professionals in the world and thought Thor must have had SHIELD training to be able to deal with them. It is a wing of the U.S. Military, but it's also the most advanced, the earth's last line of defence besides the Avengers. They're definitely better than soldiers or even Navy Seals. And while all this doesn't necessarily apply to the SSR, it is also heavily implied IMO that they're better than any standard military soldier. The Chief describes his men, the same men that Peggy put down, as highily trained government agents, a tactical team. They made a point about this. It's true that I don't think these people are necessarily better than modern day special forces, but they should definitely be comparable. They are, after all, the special forces of their own time.

Modern SHIELD is one thing, but it's mostly irrelevant except for where it can be translated directly to the SHIELD of Peggy's era, which was what this point I was making was about. Even as late as the 90s in Captain Marvel we saw that SHIELD was a very earth-based government organization, essentially just an intelligence agency, which was not particularly prepared to deal with supernatural threats. I still think my point about the Howling Commandos being former P.O.W. infantrymen and the fact that Cap was recruited out of the US Army stands. The SSR had advanced scientists but I don't think there's any reason to think they had advanced military tactics; 'highly trained government agents' doesn't really cut it here. Better than ordinary soldiers I might grant you to be generous, but that doesn't exactly make them Navy SEALs.

You analysed this part really well tbh, so I won't question this. And you're right, the image that sticks in my head ishim covered in blood and lying on the floor, so half dead is an exaggeration. I do want to point out that getting tagged a total of 5 times is not all that needs to be said; he powered through a lot of damage as usual. I mean, 5 seconds in the fight he got stabbed in the chest. Then punched and knocked down. A few more times afterwards - not all hits are the same. Peggy did get tagged in a fight scene I posted above for instance, but it did nothing, just a punch in the face. I think it's important to note that Frank struggled with those hits, making them more significant than just "tags". All that said, I can't disagree with the rest. I did make my point about the dinner fight above and why Peggy doesn't deal with too many of them simultaneously, so I think this is covered.

Yeah, my points about the comparison between the prison fight and diner fight have already been made so I don't have much more to say. Obviously I have shown far better durability feats for Frank than what was shown in the prison fight, but I don't think that's a point I need to be defending here. Frank's performance in the prison fight was exceptional both for physical capabilities and skill. In my opinion a more impressive feat than anything shown for Peggy in H2H.

I do think Matt is a match for Black Widow, and therefore well past Peggy or Dottie.. but let's be real, the Daredevil that fought Frank is not comparable to his current level, at all. Dottie or Peggy aren't anywhere near Elektra's level indeed, neither is Frank. The monumental improvement be his fights with Frank and his fights with the Hand is not just hinted on, it's directly stated by the writers and the cast:

Charlie Cox himself said that in order to fight the Hand, Matt had to "Hone his skills, be better, stronger, faster than he's ever been before". This is further supported by the fact that Nobu was destroying him S1, but Matt could drop him by the end of S2. It is also evident by how well he did against the greatest ninja of the organisation in The Defenders. Frank just doesn't compare to this fight, he doesn't compare to the Matt that could stomp entire groups of ninja.

The level at which we saw Daredevil operating during S1 is the level of Daredevil that fought the Punisher. And while he was still a solid combatant back then, what did he really do that's so beyond Peggy? He did swiftly defeat 3 cops in handcuffs, but I just don't think that's a league above what Peggy's done at all, and it's honestly way better than anything else he did at that point. And I don't think it's a league above a Red Room graduate, someone trained since childhood in many different ways to kill with her bare hands, either. Unfortunately, outside of her fights with Peggy, Dottie doesn't have exposure enough to compete with Daredevil's feats, because the other fights she have are pretty generic fodder fights where she's forced to hold back. But I think she is comparable to Daredevil by S1 as far as raw MA skill goes on account of logic and training alone. I really don't think we've seen Daredevil before he fought Frank do stuff outside of Peggy's capabilities - excluding physicals, like damage soak or agility and raw strength. Focusing purely on hand to hand, he was not too impressive like he currently is.

I agree that Daredevil improved over the course of season 2, but he was already more skilled than Dottie or Peggy before encountering the Hand. Daredevil is already as good as Dottie just based on in-universe logic and training, this is the reason (read: the only reason) that I raised that comparison in the first place. Matt has more and better feats against larger groups than either Peggy or Dottie in addition to his superior senses and speed contributing to his combat ability. What you apparently think is his best feat, beating three cops while handcuffed (on the ground with a gun pointed at him) is definitely better than beating five guys in a row in a diner but this is not his only showing. Daredevil can clear out a room of armed cops in seconds. The hallway fight took place while Matt was half dead, less than a day after bleeding out in a dumpster. The stairwell fight from season 2 (from before he encountered the Hand) is just demonstrably better than any of Peggy's already limited showings; all his opponents were armed and they were all over him with groups of two and three constantly at him at once.

Honestly, why is he substantially faster though, as far as combat speed goes? He seems to deal with groups of opponents not much, if at all, better than Carter. He more than likely has better reactions, esspecially on account of his radar sense, but that's secondary to skill and movement speed, where the gap doesn't seem that big to me.

No Caption Provided
This is Matt's first encounter with the Hand, before he could sense them. IE prior to improving to Nobu levels in season 2, and without being able to sense the movements of the person throwing the shuriken
This is Matt's first encounter with the Hand, before he could sense them. IE prior to improving to Nobu levels in season 2, and without being able to sense the movements of the person throwing the shuriken

You can separate reaction speed and radar sense all you like, as many people confusingly do for Daredevil, but this all contributes to how Matt fights and would scale equally to Frank. There is a substantial speed gap between Daredevil and Peggy.

I disagree, she did perform much, much, much better in terms of skill. They landed a very even amount of hits. Peggy did not outmaneuver her like fodder of course, she still matched her blow for blow and even outhit her at points, managing to put her down at the end. I think you're underestimating how much better Matt was than Frank as a fighter.

Like, it really wouldn't even be close without Frank's tankiness and strength in play. The hit ratio alone; Matt lands over a dozen of hits and takedowns, Frank just powers through without much damage, he gets up, tanks some more, he eventually gets Matt and manhandles him, then finishes him off with a mighty punch. At most, Punisher lands 3 hits? Matt lands 15 or so, at some points it's a constant beatdown.

We can dissect Frank's first fight with Matt until the end of time; it doesn't really make that much of a difference because we both acknowledge that Matt is more skilled than Dottie, Peggy, or anyone else brought up in this debate. There are points where Matt beats down Frank, there are a few rare points where Frank actually intercepts an attack from Matt and gets the upper hand. Frank's skill is obviously inferior to Matt's but it still enables him to fight back against Matt and that is really the only purpose of comparing the two.

I've already admitted that Frank would pretty clearly manhandle Peggy in a cage fight, he'd put her down just as easily as she put down Matt here. She doesn't have the physicals to compete with him. A knife however changes it all. You agreed that Matt would've probably taken down Frank pretty convincingly with a bladed weapon instead of his fists. Peggy has that here. Honestly, even assuming she's half the martial artist Daredevil is or less (which isn't really true), she's still noticably better the Frank. I think she can stick that knife where she has to and win. Again, I'm not basing this just off of Frank's fights with Matt, it's just something to note since you brought it up as a showing of skill - I think it speaks more to how tankish he is than how good he is as a fighter. Clearly it takes skill to effectively put him down, since Fisk, who is stronger than Frank, struggled more, but is it really so impressive?

This is an enormous reach, to try and use the Matt/Frank comparison to argue that Peggy can simply land a lethal strike. We've compared Peggy and Frank's skill a lot more directly than this and in my opinion I have made it pretty clear that there isn't much room to argue more than a slim close-quarters advantage for Peggy over Frank. Frank knows to protect his vulnerable areas and he is perfectly capable of defending and evading when necessary. If she tags him first it's definitely not going to be a lethal strike. If Peggy is even half the martial artist that Daredevil is she can do this? Does this mean Peggy translates directly to Matt in every other category besides skill? That is definitely not true; Matt's durability and damage soak eclipses Peggy's. This has never been a convincing comparison for her.

All the other points we seem to more or less agree on, so I will finish up with the gunfight and potential stealth options.

Firearms and Stealth:

Draw speed is important, but with Frank and Peggy is it really primary? I mean, they can both react to each other in a shoutout. Draw speed mostly matters in the very beginning of an exchange, but there's a lot of cover here and a lot of options. I think what mostly matters here is a shot-for-shot accuracy, because that's what it's going to come into sooner or later. I think Peggy has the advantage on that.

Getting shot at the beginning of the fight is still getting shot, lol. Draw speed determines who will land the first gunshot and for me, it is pretty clearly a matter of: fight opens, Frank draws first, Frank shoots and wounds if not kills Peggy. Then the rest of the fight, if there is one, will be a Frank in perfect condition versus a Peggy suffering from a gunshot wound to the stomach or chest. Frank's accuracy is already proven to be more than good enough to hit Peggy, so yes, I do think draw speed is substantially more important here.

It's also important to note that the speed of lining up and landing a shot contributes to more than just the first shot that gets fired, though. If the two peek out of cover to fire at each other, being faster on the draw matters there, too. Frank is just faster at lining up shots than Peggy is which means she is at a disadvantage any time the two need to identify where to shoot, and then shoot there.

What I mean by a shot-for-shot advantage, take for instance the feat I posted where she shoots a hole open on a closing door. The angle is really difficult for pinpoint accuracy, and she doesn't miss a single spot to form a perfect circle in a moving target. Honestly, I think people often overlook these showings in favor of ultra impressive marksmanship and snipers and sht, but I value this more. Pinpoint shots on moving targets for an extented period of time is not something many can do.

While the feat of shooting the door is not really an example of firing on a moving target, I do think this is an impressive feat of pinpoint accuracy. Again, pinpoint accuracy plateaus in usefulness compared to draw speed in this comparison. Frank also has the accuracy feats to headshot Peggy; beyond that, what is more important is who is best equipped to land their shot as quickly as possible.

What aim dodging are you referring to for Frank?

The feat I was thinking of specifically was from the bar fight which I showed above, but just to be clear, there are multiple instances of him narrowly dodging gunfire.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

AoS sucks currently. Moving on, okay I agree with yrou analysis to a degree. What I don't agree with is that it is an overwhelmingly good showing here. It is more visually impressive than anything Peggy has, but quantifiably, he didn't exactly outdraw an entire group of people. They didn't all have their arms drawn out and clearly didn't expect Frank to go full ham like that. This is really necessary to point out.

I completely stand by my analysis. This draw speed feat is insanely fast and arguing that not everyone he out-drew had a gun out is misunderstanding the point of what it means to "out-draw" somebody else. If Frank wasn't moving faster than an opponent, they would be able to draw their gun at the same time he was drawing his. Frank moved faster than them, and so pulled out his gun before they could get a chance to do the same. This is impressive enough discounting the fact that some opponents did already have their guns drawn and the others could have had the chance to pull out theirs in the time it took Frank to shoot some of the other opponents - again, were he not moving significantly faster than any of them, which he was. The crowd was there to kill him and threatening him with guns so obviously they knew he was going to fight back. He moved faster than any of them could react to, that is simply Frank's damn good draw speed on display.

I disagree. The showing I gave for Peggy in my last post shows sufficient tactical shooting and reaction/draw speed in a firefight. I mean, it's the end of the shoutout, all the Howling Commandos have left and she is alone with at least 3 soldiers coming from both sides of the other end of the room. The moment they are popping out to shoot her, she puts them down. Sure, Peggy doesn't open fire like Frank so fast and fancy in an open environment, but this shows she can keep track of multiple attackers from 2 sides of the room who are completely battle-ready and just as well equipped as her, without even abusing cover, but instead just standing in the middle of the area.

I absolutely agree it's not a showing beyond Frank, but I disagree that it's not enough evidence to show that Peggy can rival Frank's draw speed and tactical shooting for an extented period of time, to a degree where her better accuracy will matter.

For clarity's sake, the example for Peggy we are referring to.

Peggy already has her gun drawn in this example, so it's definitely not an example of draw speed. But this feat is really not very impressive in general and I think it is as plain as day that it is not even remotely in the same ballpark as Frank's feat discussed above. Peggy does take out a few targets which is solid, but she is firing on people that emerge from cover with her rifle drawn, and while she has another gunman at her side to boot. She can keep a level head in a firefight but I don't consider this feat to display much in the way of lining up shots quickly. Spraying with a machine gun does not require any real precision. She's not at a long distance and the opponents are not just peeking out from behind cover, they're outright running into the hallway. This feat doesn't rival Frank's speed with a handgun at all, and I mean at all.

I mean okay, so she ducks under the platform, the guy gets out looking for her and 3 seconds later she's pointing a gun to his head. The vibe you get is there because it is exactly that, it's more advanced stealth. Even going by your assumption, the feat is still "superhuman" - I haven't seen Frank doing something like getting out of cover, climbing a small platform and crossing over a dozen feet, all in 3 mere seconds, without making a sound - this is by timer, no exaggeration. As for situational awareness and tracking down movements, even in order to do that, she would have to know the exact moment the guy turned around, without exposing herself. I think you're underestimating how impressive it is, I absolutely think it's beyond Frank.

And I mean, that's just following the logical path too. I think it's intented to be like one of those ghosting ninja scenes that Batman does as a classic - we don't need to put too much thought into it either, it just happens. We've seen it other times in the MCU too, Black Widow and Hawkeye and agents of SHIELD have done it a lot. Elektra and Stick and (I think) Daredevil have done it etc. Peggy's feat isn't anything extreme by higher ninja-ish standards, but Frank's stealth is demonstratably more grounded in my eyes. It's advanced military training, using the environment tactically and stuff. It's not what Peggy does above for me, or better. I think the small number of showings Peggy has are more impressive than Frank's and quantity shouldn't be valued more than quality. That is not to say that Frank's stealth isn't impressive, I just don't think it's as good.

I'm still not seeing what your analysis shows that makes this an impressive showing. She could easily have ducked underneath the windows since they do not reach down to the floor. All she had to do was not be visible from behind the windows after the guard looked up; the only real impressive thing on display here is moving quietly enough for him not to hear her footsteps. There isn't any tracking necessary here because the guard should be entering her line of sight as soon as he goes outside. Frank's stealth showings are varied and combat-applicable, and he has feats of tracking opponents in the dark and through smoke as well as firing on them from out of sight based on footstep sounds. I've shown examples of Frank utilizing stealth in a combat situation like this one. This still just feels like an argument based on overall feeling. Frank's actual feats are better, and Peggy lacks the feats to track someone trying to use stealth on her.

Final Gameplan:

I still think Peggy's advantages, while she does have a couple, are pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. When the fight opens, Frank will be way faster on the draw and is more than accurate enough to land a shot on her. The fight could end here, when Frank puts a bullet in her head.

If Peggy survives, she will be wounded, which will already throw her off because she lacks Punisher's pain tolerance. The two would both most likely be behind cover at this point, and if the shootout continues, Frank's ability to line up shots faster means he is more likely to pick her off when they peek from behind cover than the reverse. So the fight could end there, with Frank shooting her from behind cover.

If the fight doesn't end with a shootout here - if one or both run out of ammo, or decides it's too risky - then stealth is the next factor. If one tried to ghost the other, Frank has better and more numerous feats to support him being able to get away with this, and Peggy doesn't really have the means to track Frank from stealth. So the fight could end here, with Frank sneaking up on Peggy and slitting her throat or shooting her if he still has ammo.

If one of them gets caught trying to use stealth and the two of them draw their knives, Frank is 100% capable of keeping up with Peggy and defending his vital areas while the two exchange blows. Frank can soak a ridiculous amount of damage, and if they both hit each other equally, Peggy would be on the floor before Frank even broke a sweat. So the fight could end here, with Frank taking a few non-lethal knife hits before Peggy succumbs to her wounds. Then he finishes her off if necessary.

Regardless of how the fight ultimately pans out, I don't see a scenario here where Punisher does not get the better of her.

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@anthp2000: I will open the thread for votes now! Nice job; this debate was a lot of fun. No matter who wins, my hope is that people will come out of this thread thinking more highly of both characters. I think we both showed a lot of good stuff here!

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#98 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50:

I definitely think higher of Frank after this personally. This was a really fun debate indeed, and it's nice to debate a different type of characters for once. Best of luck!

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#99 Posted by Amendment50 (15813 posts) - - Show Bio
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#100 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

That's a sick picture. I might steal it for a thread.