CAV: MCU Iron Man vs. Ironhide Voting Open...

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#1 Edited by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio
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Ironhide (King_Hellstorm)

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MCU Iron Man (CitizenSurfer)

Rules:

  • In-character but focused.
  • Tie-in comic feats allowed
  • Tony is allowed access to Veronica & Hulkbuster
  • Random encounter
  • Victory via Knockout/Incapacitation/Death
  • Combatants start 500 feet away from each other

Battleground:

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Requests:

  • Give at least three reasons for a vote, and the scoring will be initially set up to 1 week.
  • Only posters above 500 posts will be taken into account during the voting session.
  • Must only use original reasoning for voting.
  • Regular posting/commenting/humor on the battle is fine, as long as it's in good taste, any inflammatory or unneeded comments will be removed by a moderator.
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#2 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

O_o

T4V, looks like a mismatch to me

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#3 Edited by deactivated-5b466be4b5981 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm I thought we were gonna do the Nolan Bane thing for your 50th.

I feel betrayed.

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#4 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18883 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone couldn't last two months without starting a new CaV.

T4V.

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#5 Edited by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking said:

Someone couldn't last two months without starting a new CaV.

T4V.

I felt let down in my Daredevil CAV and I need my hit.

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#6 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: It is exactly March 1 for me, so I went one month. That's close enough, right?

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#8 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizensurfer: I thought we weren't having Veronica? Tony would be too hard to put down if he keeps healing.

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#9 Posted by deactivated-5b466be4b5981 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18883 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Why do you hurt me this way?

@fc_tsukihanami: I can still do it.

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#14 Edited by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Man:

No Caption Provided

I am Iron Man.

Biography:

"Tony Stark. Visionary. Genius. American patriot. Even from an early age, the son of legendary weapons developer Howard Stark quickly stole the spotlight with his brilliant and unique mind. At age four, he built his first circuit board. At age six, his first engine. And at seventeen, he graduated Summa Cum Laude from MIT. Then, the passing of a titan. Howard Stark's life long friend and ally Obadiah Stane, steps in to help fill the gap left by the legendary founder. Until at age 21, the prodigal son returns, and is anointed the new CEO of Stark Industries. With the keys to the kingdom, Tony ushers in a new era for his father's legacy, creating smarter weapons, advanced robotics, satellite targeting. Today, Tony Stark has changed the face of the weapons industry, by ensuring freedom and protecting America and her interests around the globe."

Equipment:

Suit:

The Mark VII was a leap forward in the Iron Man technology, bringing together all of the ground work and advancements made with the first six versions in addition to greatly expanding on the flight system, as well as the ordinance and laser weapon systems. Additionally the Mark VII showed new advancements in portability and accessibility, a specialization that was first demonstrated in the Mark V armour.

When not in use the armour takes on a form resembling a cylindrical pod in which the chest-plate forms the top and the thrusters from the boots form the bottom, which propel the pod like a rocket. On Tony’s command it can be deployed by J.A.R.V.I.S. and sent to him. It uses a laser guided system, similar to a bar-code scanner, to find a pair of bracelets worn by the user and attaches to them as it assembles around the user’s body. This new system effectively eliminated the need for the gantry system that most of the previous armours required.

Like the previous models, the suit increased the physical abilities of the wearer, giving Stark superhuman strength, durability, movement speed and reflexes. In addition, the Mark VII upgraded the gauntlet repulsor and unibeam weapons as the previous suits had, notably returning to a circular unibeam aperture where the previous suit had used a triangular one.

The Mark VII makes a considerable innovation to the flight system through the addition of a pair of thrusters added to the suit’s back, which give the suit faster flight speed and acceleration, while also providing flight stability, allowing Tony to freely use his palm-mounted repulsors to attack enemies while in flight. The suit also has two ports in the chest plate that house thrusters to counter balance the thrusters added to the back, and to help the suit ascend while flying without the use of the hand repulsors. The suit also contains smaller, auxiliary thrusters in the boots to provide extra thrust when trying to lift or manipulate other objects during flight.

This iteration of the Iron Man armour contained an expansive assortment of weapons, including both new weapons and upgrades to weapon systems from the previous armours. Most notably, the Mark VII possessed a vast armament of miniature, guided air-to-air missiles that are housed in the compartments on each shoulder. Like the previous suits, the Mark VII contained a small anti-armour missile in each gauntlet of the suit. The suit also demonstrated the use of flair launchers, located at the suit’s hips that were present in most of the previous suits.

Additionally, the Mark VII possessed an advanced version of the hand mounted laser weapon system introduced in the Mark VI. Unlike the Mark VI’s lasers, which could only be fired once, the Mark VII’s lasers could fire nearly continuously by drawing power directly from the Arc Reactor. Each laser module fired three lasers with one larger, central laser, and two flanking lasers for a heavier attack. This suit also sports missile launchers on each thigh.

Despite all of its successors, the Mark VII has demonstrated the greatest combat potential, as most of the subsequent models were either specialized variants or not yet perfected prototypes.

Armour capabilities:

With the exception of the Mark I Iron Man armour, almost all of the Iron Man suits share a common design and capability set. The suit is a powered exoskeleton with armoured plating, capable of enhancing the wearer's strength, speed, agility, and endurance. The suit is powered by a miniaturized Arc Reactor, either using the one surgically installed in Tony Stark's chest or else built into the chest-piece of the armour itself.

The later model armours' helmet features a retractable visor that projected a holographic AR displays to the wearer. The features of the helmet roughly resemble a human face, with eyepieces and a mouth slit showing the point where the faceplate meets the jaw.

The armour's primary weapon, as well as means of propulsion, are repulsors nodes built into the hands and feet. The repulsors in the boots provide the majority of the propulsion force while the nodes in the armour's gauntlets are used as flight stabilizers. Due to the intense heat and concussive pressure produced by the repulsors, the ones built into the gauntlets are also used as weapons, capable of neutralizing or killing enemies depending on their intensity. When needed, the primary repulsor built into the armour's breastplate can be charged to deliver a powerful, destructive unibeam blast.

The Mark II was built from basic titanium alloys, giving it a silver look. From the Mark III onward, Stark used a gold-titanium alloy to provide the necessary power-to-weight ratio coupled with the ability to resist icing at high altitudes. As the gold-colored suit seemed a bit ostentatious, Stark took to coloring certain segments of the armour hot-rod red to tone it down a bit without losing the flare he was known for. Later suits were given a variety of colors, from blue to black to green and even yellow and purple.

Up through the design of the Mark XI, Stark stuck with a basic design and aesthetic, merely improving on the technology and increasing the weapons' capabilities. From the Mark XI onward, he began crafting armours with specialized capabilities, beginning with stealth systems. By the time he built the Mark XV, he began giving the armours individual names to better identify them among the ever-growing set and in terms of the armour's specialized armours abilities.

Support Powers:

  • Flight:

One of the armour's most important features is its propulsion system and subsequent ability of flight. The armour can reach speeds as high as Mach 3 in moments. It also has variable control surfaces for active flight control by J.A.R.V.I.S. to automatically stabilize the armour in flight. The armour is able to fly at speeds more than 1500 miles per hour. However, the armour shows it can fly at supersonic speeds at the drop of a hat. By the time of the Battle of New York, the Mark VII armour's flight system was improved with additional boosters on the back. It enables the armour to quickly evade enemy attacks, go faster, and also the ability to better maneuver himself and shoot while in flight; due to the fact that he doesn't have to use his hands to keep himself stabilized all the time now. He was able to reach Tennessee from California in a matter of a few hours.

  • Superhuman Strength:

When inside the armour, it amplifies the user's physical strength, allowing Iron Man to lift in excess of 60 tons. Most armours are strong enough to lift and bench press tanks, S.H.I.E.L.D. transporters or cars. Iron Man was also able to fight Ultron's second robotic body, and, when his strength was temporarily boosted by Mjolnir's lightning (increasing his suit's power to over 400% capacity), Iron Man was able to hold his own against the mighty Asgardian Thor himself. A unique feat of strength was when Tony pushed and jump-started one of the rotors of the S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier while in the Mark VI.

  • Superhuman Reflexes:

While not on par with that of someone with genuine superhuman speed and reflexes like Spider-Man, Iron Man's armours nonetheless have motors for movement, and they are shown to be extremely fast and responsive both in flight and during combat, even against physically enhanced opponents such as Captain America or the Winter Soldier. The suit's coordination and dexterity allow the user to easily maneuver themselves and change directions with great ease during flight.

  • Armour Systems:

The armour has remote assistance from J.A.R.V.I.S. who manages the armour's systems at Stark's command, and the armour also has a holographic HUD with heads-up displays for navigation, power level, armour status, weapons systems, vital signs with cellphone and computer connections in the helmet, and a built-in loudspeaker. The armour is powered by a miniature Arc Reactor and has an onboard generator for emergencies. The scanner systems are capable of scanning the environment, weather conditions, and equipment for information.

  • Energy Conversion Power Recharge:

The armour is able to absorb and convert energy sources, such as heat, kinetic energy or energy from the planet itself into electricity, directly into the batteries for recharge. Thor struck it with a full lightning blast from Mjolnir, but Stark was amazed to find that all it did was charge up the suit to 475%, allowing him to use a powerful repulsor blast and increase his strength substantially enough to give Thor a decent fight.

  • Self-Contained Life-Support System and Environmental Protection:

The armour can be completely sealed for operations in vacuums or underwater, providing its own life support. It is also shielded against radiation. The armour is shown to be capable of operating underwater, but not designed for deep space travel (However, Tony has a new specialized armour designed to help with that situation).

  • Heads Up Display (HUD):

The Heads-Up display shows important things for the suit. The Heads Up Display of the Iron Man suit is powered by F.R.I.D.A.Y., Stark's artificial intelligence. The Suit also has Defensive and Offensive sections, able to switch around the sections, resorting to missiles and lasers. The HUD can also be talked to, and F.R.I.D.A.Y. will reply to it. The HUD can scan people, missile identifications, make calls, and give crucial suit credentials such as power. The HUD also has navigational (GPS) support. The suit also has radio capabilities, shown by Tony Stark talking to the Avengers as well as Nick Fury and Maria Hill at the S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier.

  • Immunity to water damage:

Most of Iron Man's recent armours are resistant to water damage, and display no sign of faults once they're submerged under water.

  • EMP projectiles:

At the beginning of the Clash of the Avengers, Iron Man launched a device that emitted an electromagnetic pulse on a helicopter that prevented Captain America and Winter Soldier from escaping with it. The device disrupted and disabled the helicopter's machinery.

Defensive Powers:

  • Superhuman Durability:

The armour is made up of a strong light weight Titanium Alloy, with interlocked plates for the shell, and a chest plate protecting the Arc Reactor. It has been shown to withstand tremendous amounts of punishment. The armour can withstand tank shells exploded in close proximity to Stark, and a resulting fall from several thousand feet up, followed by hits by 20mm Vulcan shells and a high speed collision with a F-22 Raptor with only minimal cosmetic damage. It was able to survive a full-on fight with an older generation suit throughout Stark's house, the fights with the Hammer Drones and Whiplash, and having several cars dropped on top of him by Scarlet Witch, all of which resulted in taking relatively minor damage. Most of all, it protects the wearer from the effects of extreme g-force. It even allows him to withstand some of Thor's attacks, although Thor proved he could crush the suit's gauntlet frame with his strength. He was able to withstand the force of a turbine from the Helicarrier's engines when he got it to work again after removing the debris blocking it. It is also able to withstand a full-on assault from the Chitauri forces' energy weapons. The Mark 42 was able to take damage from having most of Tony's house collapse on him at the bottom of the ocean and being hit by a Mack truck, although, Stark was not in the armour and was instead remote-controlling it.

  • Advanced Combat Analysis:

The Mark XLVI armour and component artificial intelligence F.R.I.D.A.Y.have the ability to analyze people's specific fighting patterns, and in turn, find a counter to said fighting style. When Stark proved unable to defeat Captain America in hand to hand combat, he had F.R.I.D.A.Y. analyze the pattern of Rogers' moves and find the openings. Once she had done so, Stark beat Rogers down in a matter of seconds, and while Rogers was still ultimately able to win, it was mainly due to a last second distraction.

Offensive Powers:

  • Repulsors:

Particle weapons in the palm gauntlets that shoot beams or blasts of concussive and explosive force, allowing them to can repel physical and energy-based attacks. Early repulsors needed time to recharge after use, but, because of the new Arc Reactor, they are able to fire at a moment's notice. The repulsors show to be strong enough to kill regular humans with one strike, destroy most stone and metal objects with ease, and destroy unmanned battle drones. When the suit is charged with additional power, the repulsors are powerful enough to stun even a superhuman with sufficient durability like Thor. It also enabled him to stun Loki on two occasions and take down numerous Chitauri foot soldiers and airships with ease. His repulsors shot down two of the three attack helicopters that destroyed his house and took out Extremis-enhanced soldiers. The repulsors now can fire in the form of segmented bolts and blasts instead of just beams. Also, by the sixth armour, the repulsor's can become small laser like welding beams, which Stark used to install an Arc Reactor for Stark Tower. The ones on the Mark XLVI are capable of launching targets off their feet and can even incapacitate Captain America during their fight.

  • Unibeam:

A much more powerful version of the repulsor beams. It is located in the chest. However, it requires more power from the Arc Reactor to use and cannot be used as often. He used a blast through the chest to kill Extremis-enhanced Eric Savin after the many times Savin had taken several shots from his repulsor blasts. Indeed, the Unibeam is also powerful enough to disintegrate the Winter Soldier's prosthetic arm.

  • Lasers:

A powerful weapon in the gauntlet wrists that can cut through any common metal. However, it is not strong enough to penetrate a Leviathan's shell. It has been shown to be very proficient against the Hammer Drones but Stark stated it only had a one-time use. It has been improved and has been used on several occasions in later models. They draw power from the Arc Reactor for more sustained operations, and can theoretically reduce the armour energy reserves to a drained state if operated indefinitely.

  • Smart Mini-guns:

Small anti-personnel guns in the shoulders that can target individual targets at once and fire at a moment's notice. It's proved to be highly effective against unarmored foot soldiers. They could be used to incapacitate rather than killing, allowing them to be used to incapacitate HYDRA agents during the assault on Baron Wolfgang von Strucker's research base in Sokovia.

  • Tank-Missile:

Among the most proficient of the armour's weapon system are the missiles which he first used against a tank sent by the Ten Rings. The armour holds a multi-fire adhesive grenade launcher in the upper arm. It includes Anti-Tank, Armour-Piercing rounds. In later models, the armour has mini-rockets hidden in a secret compartment in the boosters on the back, that blew up numerous Chitauri ships. Stark was able to destroy a Leviathan by flying into its mouth and launching them throughout its body with missiles in compartments in his knees. He was able to use a missile hit by a repulsor to take down an attacker.

  • Direct Cybernetic Interface:

Thanks to micro-repeaters injected into his left forearm, Stark can mentally and remotely control the Iron Man armours beginning with the Mark XLII either as a whole or in pieces with a combination of gestures and thought. This is further augmented by a holographic headset, which allows Stark to see through the Mark XLII's primary camera and allowing for complete remote control of the armour as though he were wearing it. The system was still in the test phases when Stark was forced to use it during his campaign against Aldrich Killian, and had a tendency to fail at random.

  • Armour Link:

Stark can mentally command the armour with his thoughts even when he is fully unconscious. The Mark XLII almost attacked Pepper Potts in bed when Stark was having a nightmare. Potts' screams woke Stark in time to shut down the armour. He also can use a holographic headset that mimics the armours heads up display and allows him to remotely control the armour as if he were inside it. He used this headset to remotely pilot the Mark XLII while he was on a speed boat with James Rhodes searching for Killian. He sent the armour aboard Air Force One to battle and kill Eric Savin and save its surviving occupants. Two years later he displayed these abilities with regards to the Mark XLIII, being able to summon pieces of it on telephonic command.

Feats:

Strength:

Whilst I don't know a lot about Ironhide i'm just going to assume that he possesses more raw strength feats than Iron Man, simply due to the fact, that is how he is built. Ironhide is the weapons specialist as well as the muscle for the Autobots, now, whilst I do agree that Ironhide takes the strength category I do think it's closer than what many people seem to think, and I'll do my best to prove this with the feats below:

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Now I'm not going to say that this tank is an M1 Abrams (one of the heaviest tanks around at approximately 62 tons) but I will be generous and assume it's a medium tank which will put it around 44 tons. Which is definitely a lot more than what Ironhide weighs (from what I know), so this feat alone will allow Iron Man to at least go toe-to-toe with Ironhide and allow him to throw Ironhide around a bit. But of course, one feat doesn't necessarily mean that he possesses the ability to do so, and I whole heartedly agree, so I'll move onto some more feats.

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Yep, let's be honest you knew I was going to drag this feat out kicking and screaming since it's arguably the best strength feat Iron Man has (besides the helicarrier turbine feat), this feat is absolutely insane due to the fact that Spider-Man was struggling to the point where it looked like he was going to tear his arms off supporting the weight of the ferry, and keep in mind Spider-Man had dozens of webs slinged across the entire length of the ship to help support him, Iron Man supported it entirely by himself, until the thrusters arrived to push the other side.

(The more I talk about Iron Man's strength feats the more I'm beginning to think whether or not Ironhide even has a strength advantage). I'll leave this for now and move onto another category.

Speed/Agility/Reflexes:

While strength is comparable (which I'm beginning to doubt) this is an area that Iron Man literally flies away with. Ironhide is very agile....on the ground, but that's it. Iron Man possesses the capability to do multiple hit and run tactics without Ironhide tagging him a single time, now of course, you'll probably post a feat of Ironhide tagging flying enemies in a tie-in comic book or even in the movies (I can't remember if he did or not, but I'm eager to find out either way). But the fact of the matter is this, Ironhide has never faced a combatant as fast or as versatile as Iron Man, and there's a reason for that; it just would not work in the slightest. Ironhide is supposed to face down his foes mano-a-mano or at the very least at close range, Iron Man is not the type of combatant and will only go hand-to-hand if the situation is dire enough or if he's pushed to the breaking point, but enough about all of that, lets move onto the glorious feats.

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Now of course you can say that scan was ripped from an comic that has nothing to do with the movie, but then I'll just have to post the scene in which Iron Man left two F-22 Raptors in it's smoke when Tony decided to accelerate to supersonic speeds near instantaneously, like this:

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Now granted, you could just say that top speed means absolutely nothing and Iron Man is only capable of flying fast in straight lines, and I'd be inclined to agree with you, most characters in comic books and CBM's only ever achieve their top speed when travelling in a straight line, but you see, that's the beauty of Iron Man, whilst he is slower when performing complex maneuvers, he is by absolutely no means a slouch, as shown below:

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Durability:

Now this is a category I am truly stumped on, we both know that both Ironhide and Iron Man can take tremendous amounts of punishment and keep on going, and I'm kinda leaning towards Ironhide for the edge, but as I just said, BOTH combatants can take tremendous amounts of punishment, and I'll do my best to show that Iron Man is just as durable as Ironhide.

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As you see in the GIF above, Iron Man casually withstands a tank shell (possibly AA) with absolutely no damage whatsoever to his suit, there is only slight discoloration and some pain stripped from the suit, I guess you can double this feat as well, considering Iron Man then tanked falling from that height and still walked it off like it was nothing.

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Another good durability feat, and one which I'm surprised he recovered so quickly from, Iron Mongers rocket was capable of absolutely decimating that bus and was capable of reducing it to nothing more than scrap metal and yet Iron Man tanked it effortlessly and recovered from falling within approximately 2 seconds.

What is arguably Iron Man's best durability feat is when he effortlessly tanked the Jericho Missile system, for those of you who have forgotten what the Jericho Missile System is, allow me to refresh your memory.

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Obviously I'm not saying that Iron Man tanked it in that scene, oh hell no, I'm talking about when he was at ground zero...

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So before you start saying that Ironhide won't be using conventional weapons and will be using alien weaponry such as plasma etc.. Let me be the first to remind you that Iron Man has been dealing with Plasma based weaponry for years, which kinda comes in handy in this scenario don't you think?

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Before you start saying that the plasma is different, I just want to say that plasma is plasma, it doesn't change, the only thing that does is the size of the area it affects.

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Iron Man was unprepared for Steve to appear with the shield to reflect the plasma back towards him, which is why he was knocked back so easily.

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Now while you might assume this scene shows Iron Man's weakness to plasma based weaponry, it actually shows his fortitude against it, as there is no visible damage on his suit after this scene, there are obviously scorch marks but that's it.

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Now before you ask, lightning is classed as plasma, so this scene also shows Iron Man's durability to plasma based weaponry, and don't worry i'm not going to say that whenever Ironhide uses plasma it'll just charge Iron Man.

I think that's enough for the durability category..let's move onto firepower.

Firepower:

I personally believe that this category is actually quite even, I just think that Iron Man's versatility gives him the edge here, I'm not going to list all of this weapons out as I've already done that above, so for this I'll just post feats and let the voters decide on who possesses more firepower, I will however separate the firepower into three categories (Repulsors, Lasers, Missiles).

Repulsors:

Okay let's be honest, Repulsors are Iron Man's go-to weapon for one reason, they are so bloody diverse and reliable that it's not even funny, they can either be fired as a continuous beam of plasma or a blast of concussive force plasma that is capable of knocking down and ragdolling regular humans.

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I'm not classifying these as feats, just as display evidence of what I just said about the Repulsors having two separate settings, but take them as you will.

Okay now moving onto the actual feats:

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Iron Man's concussive blasts are powerful enough to send Thor flying backwards into a tree, and judging from the feats Thor has displayed in the movies prior to and after The Avengers, this feat is actually quite decent, but how about we move onto something that can be quantified into real world standards.

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Iron Man casually destroys a World War 2 era bunker with a single concussive blast.

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The same thing happens in this scene, Iron Man with a single concussive blast effortlessly destroys a HYDRA tank

Lasers:

Arguably the most powerful weapon in Iron Man's arsenal, these lasers are basically Iron Man's last resort weapon since they will cut through pretty much anything due to the sheer amount of power they are outputting:

IT'LL BE TOUGH TO TOP THE MARK VI'S 200-PETAWATT
IT'LL BE TOUGH TO TOP THE MARK VI'S 200-PETAWATT "TURN AND BURN" LASER SYSTEM"

Before anything else is said, I want to apologize for the potato quality scan above me, I bring shame to this debate....

BUT HOLY MOTHER OF GOD 200 PETAWATTS, DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW GOD DAMN POWERFUL THAT IS?

Here's a quick scale of just how....god damn powerful that is (I actually can't wrap my head around that number, like....wow).

The US's largest nuclear power plant only produces 3,937MW (Megawatts)

1 Petawatt = 1,000,000,000 megawatts.

Like....WHAT!?

Okay...moving on from that absolute mind**** let's actually get onto the feats for the lasers.

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The lasers effortlessly destroy dozens of HAMMER drones and surrounding scenery.

Nah...I'm still affected by that mind**** I'm moving onto the other weaponry before my head explodes.

Missiles:

Whilst not the most powerful weaponry in Iron Man's arsenal they are definitely capable of packing one helluva punch to anyone they hit.

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Wrist mounted missiles that are capable turning HAMMER drones into scrap metal.

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Thigh mounted missiles that are capable of destroying a Leviathan from the inside.

Okay I think that's enough for the missiles I don't really want to bombard you with scans and scenes, so I'll end this quickly and move onto the Unibeam now and then do my closing thoughts.

Unibeam:

Iron Man's second strongest weapon in his arsenal, the unibeam is a chest mounted repulsor that is much more powerful than it's palm based counterparts.

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As seen above the Unibeam is powerful enough to launch Iron Monger, which can be scaled to Ironhide in terms of size and weight flying backwards into a car.

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Effortlessly blasts a hole through Eric Savin and multiple walls behind Eric Savin.

Closing Thoughts:

  • Iron Man is comparable to Ironhide in terms of strength, if not stronger
  • Iron Man is comparable to Ironhide in terms of durability, if not more durable.
  • Iron Man has much better reflexes
  • Iron Man is much faster
  • Iron Man has the advantage of flight
  • Iron Man definitely possesses the firepower to cause high amounts of damage to Ironhide.
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#15 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizensurfer: One of your unibeam scans says 404. Also you seem really hyped about IM. Lol.

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#17 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizensurfer: One of your unibeam scans says 404. Also you seem really hyped about IM. Lol.

Both unibeam scans are working for me, try reloading the page.

Nah not necessarily hyped per se, I've just wanted to use him in a CAV for a while now.

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#18 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

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Ironhide

Bio:

Ironhide is the Autobots' resident weapons specialist and Optimus Prime's old friend. He is old because he is hard. He's probably had enough replacement parts to build a small army, but Ironhide doggedly refuses to roll over and die for anyone. He'll fight to the bitter end and take down more than his fair share of Decepticons in the process.

Ironhide doesn't always see optic to optic with Prime, despite their friendship. He's perhaps the more practical of the two, and more than a little trigger happy, so he can be more willing to push the Autobot code to the limit if he thinks it will get the job done faster.

TFWiki

Theme Song:

Probably one of the most epic movie songs ever.

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Ironhide has arrived.

Powers and Capabilities:

  • Super strength
  • Super speed
  • Enhanced durability
  • Massive size
  • Plasma canons
  • Missile launches
  • Vehicle transformation
  • Weapons creation

Now that we have the basics out of the way, let's move onto Ironhide's feats, now he doesn't have a lot of them, even compared to the other Autobots in the film, but the few he does have cements him as the most powerful Autobot second to only Optimus. But before we do, I will just say right out off the bat that I will skip the strength section, this will be a firefight through and though so I don't see the need, besides that the feats you showed were lifting, which is the least relevant type of strength in a battle like this. But if needed I will show Ironhide's strength feats later.

Anyway, with that out of the way let's start looking at Ironhide's feats, starting with a category you may find surprising.

Speed

Yes, Ironhide has speed feats. In fact I would go so far as to say that he has better speed feats than Tony does, now don't be confused when I say he has better speed feats I mean he can react faster. Iron Man can still travel faster but I believe reaction speed is much more important than travel speed. Now, why do I think Ironhide can react faster? Let's break it down.

We all know Tony's infamous tank sidestep feat, but he isn't the only one who can sidestep missiles. Ironhide can do it as well.

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Granted it doesn't look as cool, but do you know what does? Dodging 5 missiles in a sequence while doing acrobatic maneuvers in slow motion.

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Now I know what you are thinking, can he dodge and shot at the same time? And the answer is surprisingly yes, yes he can. He dodges two missiles while firing two.

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So yes, this is significantly more impressive than sidestepping a missile. Ironhide is doing much more than sidestepping, dodging much more than just 1 missile and he is moving toward his attacker not simply dodging.

TL;DR Ironhide has better reaction and combat speed that Iron Man.

Durability

One thing I want to counter before we begin is the Jericho feat. It appeared in Iron Man 2 Public Identity Issue #1, and I have two main issues with it. 1. The size of the explosion. The size of the explosion wasn't that large.

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I mean yes, that is somewhat big and still impressive. But showing this massive explosion which was a hundred times more powerful, and indirectly calling them the same is misleading. The second problem I have is 2. The bystanders. Not only did the terrorists who were standing right next explosion remain unharmed (till IM killed them) but a bunch of civilian reporters survived the blast as well just hiding behind a broken down van.

No Caption Provided

So all in all, it is a good feat but not *that* good.

Moving on to Ironhide's feats. First of all, he is probably the tankiest Autrobot there is. He makes Bumblebee look like a hunk of junk in comparison. Just look at this

No Caption Provided

There Bumblebee and Ironhide use a truck to protect humans from Starscream's missile. The blast was so powerful that Bumblebee was completely shredded and lost his legs, but Ironhide? Well the next time we see him he is dodging missiles (as shown above) like nothing even happened to him.

Now, you might try saying it was the trck that saved Ironhide or the angle of attack or something, but no. That truck was meant to protect the civilians behind Ironhide. Ironhide himself can eat a point blank missile from Starscream to the face.

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The force is enough to knock him back and chip away at his armor but not 10 seconds later, does he get back up and keep fighting.

He also tanks 2 jet missiles that harm Demolisher it takes him out but you will find out why that is crazy impressive later.

Tales of the Fallen #2
Tales of the Fallen #2

But that isn't all, remember that Jericho feat from Iron Man? Well Ironhide has one similar but much better. He survives this

No Caption Provided

That is crazy durable. But guess what? Context makes it better. Ironhide was already injured before the bombing.

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Here the whole thing is in order in case you want to see for yourself. Mind you the sequence is pretty long.

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But I don't even need to show these feats because Iron Man's missiles aren't nearly that strong. Missiles around IM's level get no sold by Ironhide in car mode.

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Those missiles were taking out multiple cars and Ironhide was driving through them like nothing.

As for repulsors and plasma, it is a no contest. You show IR getting knocked back by fodder blasts and his own attacks (which were nerfed since he wasn't trying to kill Cap, just Bucky) as feats, which is fine but not even comparable to Ironhide.

Ironhide took a plasma blast from Blackout.

No Caption Provided

Of course Ironhide gets back up and keeps fighting right after. And before you try to say Ironhide used a car to block the blast, you should wait till you see how powerful those plasma shots were. They were absolutely disintegrating military cargo airplanes in the beginning of the movie on their most powerful 'setting'.

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And blowing up helicopters and possibly throwing around tanks in their medium 'setting'.

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That kind of power is something IM would never be able to tank, even if he had a car in front of him. And it is definitely a kind of power IM could never dish out.

TL;DR Ironhide takes durability with ease. He is massively more durable than Iron Man and only Hulkbuster can hope to compete in this category, but even then Hulkbuster is mostly good against physical attacks (hence the name) while Ironhide is good against explosives and plasma which is much more useful in this battle.

Firepower

IM can be as versatile as he wants but in terms of power, I think Ironhide has the edge.

For starters he creates pretty sizable explosions with his casual blasts. They have enough force in them to boost him up.

No Caption Provided

In fact the force of his attacks are so powerful, that their very shockwaves can immobolize 4 government vehicles.

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They are so powerful that they are able to take out Demolisher by hitting his wheel.

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Demolisher was so massive that he made Ironhide and Optimus (who was in his face) look like toddlers in comparison. Here is a chart of their sizes.

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Jazz and Bumblebee almost look human sized in comparison.

Which is why lesser Decepticons get one shot by Ironhide.

Transformers: Rising Storm #1
Transformers: Rising Storm #1

That Decepticon was no selling high tech explosives and shots from an armored car just before Ironhide one shot him so he was no joke.

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He does this in the movies too.

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TL;DR Ironhide should have an edge in firepower. Tony busts tanks but he doesn't completely tear it into pieces like Ironhide does against Decepticons (which are much larger than tanks).

How The Battle Will Go:

Based on what has been posted here is my current thoughts on why\how Ironhide wins.

VS. Iron Man

Really there is only one thing that Iron Man has over Ironhide and that is mobility. But with Ironhide's advantages in reaction speed and durability, it is only a matter of time before IM falls, he can't take more than 3 shots from Ironhide while Ironhide can dodge and eat hits from Iron Man all day. But it's not like it will be hard for Ironhide to tag Iron Man, he has tagged faster depictions. Like when he rammed into Fracture

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A race car that can drive at FTE speeds.

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Not only that but Iron Man doesn't even use his flight to its full extent as seen here, when he lets Iron Monger beat on him before even thinking of using his flight advantage.

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We see this in the next film as well

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And again

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TL;DR Against Iron Man it would just be a matter of time before he shots him down if Tony even fights smart right out of the bat. But Iron Man can't tank more than one or two blasts at most anyway.

VS Hulkbuster

Going Hulkbuster may be the worst thing Iron Man could do. He would lose his mobility and speed, meaning every shot Ironhide makes will land. And while Hulkbuster is tough, it was made to battle the Hulk, so physical durability is what it is best at. Meanwhile Ironhide tanked an attack that wasted a town while injured. So in a firefight he is even more durable than Hulkbuster. Ironhide would also be able to easily dance around Hulkbuster in car mode, meaning that the mobility advantage would go to Ironhide.

TL;DR Using Hulkbuster, Tony would be trading mobility and speed for physical strength and durability. Two factors that matter much less than speed and mobility, but not only would he lose those two advantages. Ironhide would gain them, meaning Ironhide would now not only react and fight faster, but he would travel and just all around move faster than Tony.

Conclusions:

Ironhide is way tougher than Iron Man and has better reaction speed than he does. In terms of firepower, Ironhide's will be much more effective as his shots will be the size of Iron Man's entire chest due to his size, and each one would damage Iron Man while Iron Man would struggle to harm Ironhide.

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#19 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: I'll probably have a post up tomorrow, can't do much today as I have guests around.

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#21 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizensurfer: Cool, btw could you use spoiler blocks and GIFs? Your video clips takes a lot of space and I see you are using gfycat which allows you to make GIFS.

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#22 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: Nah I tried using spoilers in my Daredevil CAV but something messes up and deletes the GIFs.

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#23 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizensurfer: Vids cannot show under spoiler blocks. Here do this

1. Click the highlighted.

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2. Copy the highlighted link.

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3. Upload it like you would an image and viola, clean GIFs.

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#24 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters #1

Countering Speed:

Yes, Ironhide has speed feats. In fact I would go so far as to say that he has better speed feats than Tony does, now don't be confused when I say he has better speed feats I mean he can react faster.

No dude, I'm sorry but just no. Judging from what you've posted Ironhide's best reaction feat is when he was dodging those missiles right? Tank shells usually travel at approximately 1,700m/s which is about Mach 5. Now unless you can prove that those rockets were travelling faster than Mach 5 then I ain't buying it.

Iron Man can still travel faster but I believe reaction speed is much more important than travel speed.

It's entirely dependent on the situation. If Iron Man is capable of travelling at Mach 500 (he obviously can't) and Ironhide can only react to Mach 1, what do you think would happen if Iron Man were to blitz him, Ironhide wouldn't see it coming from a mile away.

We all know Tony's infamous tank sidestep feat, but he isn't the only one who can sidestep missiles. Ironhide can do it as well.

In future please do not try and compare the velocity of a tank shell to the velocity of a short range rocket, as shown above the difference is vastly different.

Granted it doesn't look as cool, but do you know what does? Dodging 5 missiles in a sequence while doing acrobatic maneuvers in slow motion.

The feat doesn't scale to the amount of rockets fired right, if I dodge 1,000 objects travelling at Mach 1 speeds that doesn't mean I'm moving Mach 1,001.

Now I know what you are thinking, can he dodge and shot at the same time? And the answer is surprisingly yes, yes he can. He dodges two missiles while firing two.

I already showed Iron Man doing something very similar, except he was travelling at a much faster speed, then decelerated, then dodged, then aimed then fired, then sped back up the speed he was already travelling at and he did all of that in the span of 1 second.

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So yes, this is significantly more impressive than sidestepping a missile.

Please stop comparing them, it's basically the same as comparing an arrow to a bullet, yes they both do the same thing, except one is moving a helluva lot faster.

Ironhide is doing much more than sidestepping, dodging much more than just 1 missile and he is moving toward his attacker not simply dodging.

So now you want feats of when they're moving as well....Okay.

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That feat comes right after destroying Sokovia. The suit was on minimal power, and Tony was absolutely exhausted.

TL;DR Ironhide has better reaction

Yeah....except you've proven nothing, you've shown Ironhide dodging short range rockets, which are vastly slower than tank shells.

and combat speed that Iron Man.

Yeah....no, don't even try and go down this route, you've got absolutely no feats that come close to the speed Iron Man has displayed in combat, such as below:

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TL;DR: You've proven nothing to suggest that Ironhide comes close to Iron Man in terms of combat speed or reactions.

Countering Durability:

One thing I want to counter before we begin is the Jericho feat. It appeared in Iron Man 2 Public Identity Issue #1, and I have two main issues with it. 1. The size of the explosion. The size of the explosion wasn't that large.

Dude...you have posted the images, and yet you still don't believe it?

Not only did the terrorists who were standing right next explosion remain unharmed (till IM killed them)

Well I mean obviously not, since as you can see above, they're quite dead. Dude you posted the scans of the terrorists killed from the explosion....why would you feel the need to lie about it?

Moving on to Ironhide's feats. First of all, he is probably the tankiest Autrobot there is.

Yeah I'm getting the feeling that Optimus Prime disagrees with you.

There Bumblebee and Ironhide use a truck to protect humans from Starscream's missile.

Actually this is a good time to showcase how strong Ironhide is don't you think?

No Caption Provided

It takes both Bumblebee and Ironhide to lift that truck and even then, they're still struggling, meanwhile I've shown you Iron Man effortlessly swinging a tank, now of course you'll probably say that lifting strength has no place in a battle but you'd be wrong.

If Ironhide weighs 3 tons and Iron Man can effortlessly lift 40+ tons what do you think that means for Ironhide, he's going to get ragdolled.

Now, you might try saying it was the truck that saved Ironhide or the angle of attack or something, but no.

But yes...Bumblebee took the brunt of that explosion, you can clearly see that in the GIF you posted, Ironhide was partially protected by the truck, you can't even try and deny that since you yourself posted the evidence that disproves your claim.

That truck was meant to protect the civilians behind Ironhide. Ironhide himself can eat a point blank missile from Starscream to the face.

That literally does nothing to bolster your claim about the truck not protecting Ironhide, it was meant to protect the civilians and it did, but that does not change the fact that the truck also protected Ironhide.

The force is enough to knock him back and chip away at his armor but not 10 seconds later, does he get back up and keep fighting.

You and I must have very different understandings of the word "knocked back", because that missile flipped him head over wheels and put him on his ass, and set fire to him.

He also tanks 2 jet missiles that harm Demolisher it takes him out but you will find out why that is crazy impressive later.

Are these the same kind of jet missiles that did absolutely nothing to Iron Man in the original movie and only knocked him off balance?

P.S. If he got taken out by them, then he didn't tank them FYI.

But that isn't all, remember that Jericho feat from Iron Man? Well Ironhide has one similar but much better. He survives this

You mean we clearly see Ironhide jumping out of the way of the explosion at the start of the GIF and wasn't even touched by it right?

But I don't even need to show these feats because Iron Man's missiles aren't nearly that strong. Missiles around IM's level get no sold by Ironhide in car mode.

What feats would they be exactly? The ones where he's running away or the ones where he's protected by trucks?

Missiles around IM's level get no sold by Ironhide in car mode.

Yeah....because Iron Man is only going to use his missiles and not his entire arsenal of weapons, that you haven't even addressed....

Those missiles were taking out multiple cars and Ironhide was driving through them like nothing.

You see...there's your problem, you're assuming that Ironhide is tanking every single one of them, except not a single one had a direct hit.

You show IR getting knocked back by fodder blasts and his own attacks (which were nerfed since he wasn't trying to kill Cap, just Bucky)

Are you actually being serious right now or did you not watch the movie at all? Cap jumped into the way of that blast at the last second.

And before you try to say Ironhide used a car to block the blast

You mean before I say what actually happened right?

, you should wait till you see how powerful those plasma shots were. They were absolutely disintegrating military cargo airplanes in the beginning of the movie on their most powerful 'setting'.

Great showing, but completely irrelevant since they are obviously not on "their most powerful setting" in this scene.

That kind of power is something IM would never be able to tank

Ermmm......Wat?

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And it is definitely a kind of power IM could never dish out.

Dude, unless you can prove that a modern cargo plane is more durable than a WW2 era bunker, then i'm gonna have to respectfully disagree.

TL;DR Ironhide takes durability with ease.

Yeah except he doesn't, unless you got something that compares to the Sokovia explosion.

Only Hulkbuster can hope to compete in this category, but even then Hulkbuster is mostly good against physical attacks (hence the name) while Ironhide is good against explosives and plasma which is much more useful in this battle.

I'm sorry but are you actually being serious when you're saying this, you honestly think that the Hulkbuster has absolutely zero energy defense and can only take physical damage, so by your logic a Chitauri plasma spear should be able to one-shot the Hulkbuster armour...

Countering Firepower:

IM can be as versatile as he wants but in terms of power, I think Ironhide has the edge.

*COUGH*

No Caption Provided

Show me absolutely anything that Ironhide has done that comes anywhere close to that, then I might change my mind.

For starters he creates pretty sizable explosions with his casual blasts. They have enough force in them to boost him up.

Don't get me wrong when I say this....but.....Iron Man caused a larger explosion than that just by falling into the ground.

You also can't really try and talk about weapons boosting characters up, you know since Iron Man's repulsors are literally necessary for Iron Man to fly.

In fact the force of his attacks are so powerful, that their very shockwaves can immobolize 4 government vehicles.

Yeah all I'm seeing here is the "shockwave" blowing out the tires on the cars.

They are so powerful that they are able to take out Demolisher by hitting his wheel.

Not really a good feat to try and display when you realise that Demolisher is basically an oversized unicycle.

Demolisher was so massive that he made Ironhide and Optimus (who was in his face) look like toddlers in comparison. Here is a chart of their sizes.

Yeah...an oversized unicycle..

Which is why lesser Decepticons get one shot by Ironhide.

Fodder decepticons, you meant fodder.

That Decepticon was no selling high tech explosives and shots from an armored car just before Ironhide one shot him so he was no joke.

Yeah unless you've got feats for "high tech explosives and shots from an armoured car" I'm taking his durability feats with a cup of salt.

He does this in the movies too.

Cool, have you got any durability feats for them as well?

TL;DR Ironhide should have an edge in firepower.

Yeah except he doesn't, unless you've got feats that show Ironhide putting out more power than a few million nuclear reactors It's no from me.

Tony busts tanks but he doesn't completely tear it into pieces like Ironhide does against Decepticons (which are much larger than tanks).

So you're argument for this is "larger = more durable" gotcha...

VS. Iron Man

Really there is only one thing that Iron Man has over Ironhide and that is mobility.

and durability, and firepower, and strength, and versatility...but carry on.

But with Ironhide's advantages in reaction speed and durability

Yeah I've seen no evidence of that anywhere.

, it is only a matter of time before IM falls

Based on what evidence exactly?

he can't take more than 3 shots from Ironhide while Ironhide can dodge and eat hits from Iron Man all day.

I'm not even going to justify this with an on-topic response...

But it's not like it will be hard for Ironhide to tag Iron Man, he has tagged faster depictions.

PFFFT LOL. Scans of Fracture at supersonic speed?

A race car that can drive at FTE speeds.

Yeah I'm not seeing anything that comes close to supersonic speed.

Not only that but Iron Man doesn't even use his flight to its full extent as seen here, when he lets Iron Monger beat on him before even thinking of using his flight advantage.

Did you even read my opener or did you selectively choose to ignore all of the GIF's and scans of Iron Man flying in combat?

Going Hulkbuster may be the worst thing Iron Man could do. He would lose his mobility and speed, meaning every shot Ironhide makes will land. And while Hulkbuster is tough, it was made to battle the Hulk, so physical durability is what it is best at. Meanwhile Ironhide tanked an attack that wasted a town while injured. So in a firefight he is even more durable than Hulkbuster. Ironhide would also be able to easily dance around Hulkbuster in car mode, meaning that the mobility advantage would go to Ironhide.

TL;DR Using Hulkbuster, Tony would be trading mobility and speed for physical strength and durability. Two factors that matter much less than speed and mobility, but not only would he lose those two advantages. Ironhide would gain them, meaning Ironhide would now not only react and fight faster, but he would travel and just all around move faster than Tony.

Yeah I'm not even using Hulkbuster yet, so why you're trying to strawman is beyond me.

Ironhide is way tougher than Iron Man

Absolutely zero evidence to prove this...

and has better reaction speed than he does

Absolutely zero evidence to prove this either...

Iron Man would struggle to harm Ironhide.

You know besides the fact that Iron Man can literally one shot Ironhide with his lasers right?

Closing thoughts:

Same as in my opener, as my opponent has brought forward zero evidence to back up his statements of Ironhide possessing the advantage in the X category.

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#25 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: Sorry about the aggressiveness in my post last night, I had a bit too much to drink, yeah I think I am, I'm probably just gonna go over it and double check everything, I'll let you know.

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#28 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

No Caption Provided

Counters: Speed

No dude, I'm sorry but just no. Judging from what you've posted Ironhide's best reaction feat is when he was dodging those missiles right? Tank shells usually travel at approximately 1,700m/s which is about Mach 5. Now unless you can prove that those rockets were travelling faster than Mach 5 then I ain't buying it.

I don't need to prove that since you did it for me, just now. Lookie here, Ironhide dodges tank shells

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This is part of the sequence I showed

It's entirely dependent on the situation. If Iron Man is capable of travelling at Mach 500 (he obviously can't) and Ironhide can only react to Mach 1, what do you think would happen if Iron Man were to blitz him, Ironhide wouldn't see it coming from a mile away.

Well obviously. But what is the point of an analogy this extreme? It is like me saying that sometimes finger strength beats whole body strength because Hulk's finger is stronger than Luke Cage's entire body. Yes, that is how extreme and pointless the analogy you are making is.

In future please do not try and compare the velocity of a tank shell to the velocity of a short range rocket, as shown above the difference is vastly different.

When did I evercall those missiles short ranged rockets? I didn't, you simply assumed that they were but as two seconds of researched would have showed, Ironhide dodged attacks from Brawl who is a tank.

The feat doesn't scale to the amount of rockets fired right, if I dodge 1,000 objects travelling at Mach 1 speeds that doesn't mean I'm moving Mach 1,001.

Ironhide, according to you, dodged 5 mach 5 projectiles. Iron Man side stepped one.

I already showed Iron Man doing something very similar, except he was travelling at a much faster speed, then decelerated, then dodged, then aimed then fired, then sped back up the speed he was already travelling at and he did all of that in the span of 1 second.

That's not even close to as impressive as dodging mach 5 projectiles while returning fire. Hawkeye was tagging those tings without even looking.

No Caption Provided

Please stop comparing them, it's basically the same as comparing an arrow to a bullet, yes they both do the same thing, except one is moving a helluva lot faster.

No, it is like compering a shot from a tank to a shot from a tank. It is literally apples to apples.

So now you want feats of when they're moving as well....Okay.

Dodging falling rocks? It shows good maneuverability sure, but in terms of speed it doesn't come close to mach 5 (and yes, since you were the one who brought up that number, I can spam it now).

Yeah....except you've proven nothing, you've shown Ironhide dodging short range rockets, which are vastly slower than tank shells.

You assumed that.

Yeah....no, don't even try and go down this route, you've got absolutely no feats that come close to the speed Iron Man has displayed in combat, such as below:

That's not combat speed. That is flight speed. Iron Man was flying erratically and being hard to tag. Ironhide was dodging mach 5 projectiles while returning fire.

Countering Durability:

Dude...you have posted the images, and yet you still don't believe it?

I believe that you are misleading readers unintentionally or intentionally.

Well I mean obviously not, since as you can see above, they're quite dead. Dude you posted the scans of the terrorists killed from the explosion....why would you feel the need to lie about it?

Please tell me we are reading different comics. They are clearly not dead.

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Iron Man literally kills them the next page.

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Yeah I'm getting the feeling that Optimus Prime disagrees with you.

Based on what?

Actually this is a good time to showcase how strong Ironhide is don't you think?

Nah, seems like a good time to make an assumption though

It takes both Bumblebee and Ironhide to lift that truck and even then, they're still struggling,

Nothing there indicates a struggle.

meanwhile I've shown you Iron Man effortlessly swinging a tank, now of course you'll probably say that lifting strength has no place in a battle but you'd be wrong.

No, I would say that Ironhide looks much more badass wielding a tank.

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If Ironhide weighs 3 tons and Iron Man can effortlessly lift 40+ tons what do you think that means for Ironhide, he's going to get ragdolled.

Ironhide would overpower Iron Man like so.

No Caption Provided

But yes...Bumblebee took the brunt of that explosion, you can clearly see that in the GIF you posted, Ironhide was partially protected by the truck, you can't even try and deny that since you yourself posted the evidence that disproves your claim.

They were both covered partially but Ironhide was unharmed.

That literally does nothing to bolster your claim about the truck not protecting Ironhide, it was meant to protect the civilians and it did, but that does not change the fact that the truck also protected Ironhide.

So why does Bublebee get destroyed?

You and I must have very different understandings of the word "knocked back", because that missile flipped him head over wheels and put him on his ass, and set fire to him.

We also seem to have a different definition of the word "fire" since there is no point where he is on fire. Also he was never flippedhead over wheels. Here is the GIF slowed

No Caption Provided

Are these the same kind of jet missiles that did absolutely nothing to Iron Man in the original movie and only knocked him off balance?

Nah, they are the kind of missiles that can knock an 86 foot tall deception. Seriously, even fodder decpticon can take multiple jet missiles.

Loading Video...

You mean we clearly see Ironhide jumping out of the way of the explosion at the start of the GIF and wasn't even touched by it right?

No, we literally see Ironhide being tagged.

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What feats would they be exactly? The ones where he's running away

Running away doesn't increse durability.

or the ones where he's protected by trucks?

Why did you ignore this?

Ironhide himself can eat a point blank missile from Starscream to the face.

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I knew that you would say it was the truck protecting Ironhide so I preemptively countered that by showing Ironhide tanking the same missile without cover. But you just straight up ignored it.

Yeah....because Iron Man is only going to use his missiles and not his entire arsenal of weapons, that you haven't even addressed....

You mean the lasers that have feats of only cutting fodder or the plasma blasts (that I did address) that will do nothing?

You see...there's your problem, you're assuming that Ironhide is tanking every single one of them, except not a single one had a direct hit.

He was at the epicenter of the first blast and was inches away from the second.

Are you actually being serious right now or did you not watch the movie at all? Cap jumped into the way of that blast at the last second.

Are you claiming that Tony can react to mach 5 projectiles but Cap can blindside him? You can't have the best of both worlds, so either Tony has slow reaction time or he reacted to Cap and adjusted his blast accordingly.

And no, you can't claim he was taken by surprise as Cap appeared in front of him, not anywhere else. Yes, it is sudden but that is literally what reaction speed is for. To react to a sudden situation.

You mean before I say what actually happened right?

I mean before you try to lowball.

Great showing, but completely irrelevant since they are obviously not on "their most powerful setting" in this scene.

That's exactly why I showed their medium setting. There is no reason Blackout would use anything less than that.

Sokovia/Bunker

Ermmm......Wat?

Too bad he wasn't protected from most of that via the core thing he was heating which is a massive piece of metal.

No Caption Provided

Here are still images of it for clarity.

Image 1

Image 2

As you can see the massive metal protects Tony and in the second image you can see the energy around the metal plate, showing that the metal plate partially blocked the blast.

Dude, unless you can prove that a modern cargo plane is more durable than a WW2 era bunker, then i'm gonna have to respectfully disagree.

It was quite tiny. Here it is in comparison to the Hulk, so yes I wholeheartedly believe that an attack that vaporizes cargo planes would easily one shot 2 or more of those.

Yeah except he doesn't, unless you got something that compares to the Sokovia explosion.

Yeah, except he does. That metal plate btw, is most likely Vibranium

Loading Video...

The entire plan was also to keep the explosion sealed in so only Sokovia gets destroyed.

Loading Video...

So basically

  1. Tony was shielded from the brunt of the damage by what is mostly Vibranium or some other really durable metal.
  2. Even if Tony's shield wasn't Vibranium, multiple energy cores in Sokovia were, they would have absorbed a lot of the energy.
  3. The entire strategy was the create a heat seal, which means that outside of Sokovia the damage wasn't as much

These factors all in all make this feat less impressive than Ironhide's. Also Ironhide is unharmed by his explosion as well as he is seen later, chipper as ever.

Loading Video...

I'm sorry but are you actually being serious when you're saying this, you honestly think that the Hulkbuster has absolutely zero energy defense and can only take physical damage, so by your logic a Chitauri plasma spear should be able to one-shot the Hulkbuster armour...

Are you serious? You think the Hulbuster is planetary? Oh wait, you never said that? Well, I thought we were just shoving words in each others mouths for the lolz.

But seriously, I said

"but even then Hulkbuster is mostly good against physical attacks"

Not that it was only good against physical attacks.

Countering Firepower:

Show me absolutely anything that Ironhide has done that comes anywhere close to that, then I might change my mind.

Feats > statements. Ironhide was stated to have more weapons than a third world country and he was stated to be responsible for blowing up a planetoid. Show me something tangible.

Don't get me wrong when I say this....but.....Iron Man caused a larger explosion than that just by falling into the ground.

How about this then?

No Caption Provided

Better tank busting than Iron Man.

You also can't really try and talk about weapons boosting characters up, you know since Iron Man's repulsors are literally necessary for Iron Man to fly.

Ironhide weighs a couple tons, Iron Man weighs pounds.

Yeah all I'm seeing here is the "shockwave" blowing out the tires on the cars.

It was also creating sparks all over the road.

No Caption Provided

Not really a good feat to try and display when you realise that Demolisher is basically an oversized unicycle.

Yeah...an oversized unicycle..

You are just downplaying for the sake of downplaying.......or maybe it's cause.

Fodder decepticons, you meant fodder.

And it continues. Why? Because you want to make it seem like Iron Man is somehow stronger by any means necessary. As I already showed, "fodder" decepticons can take jet missiles and tunnel away.

Yeah unless you've got feats for "high tech explosives and shots from an armoured car" I'm taking his durability feats with a cup of salt.

Yes, they exist in the real world. Stop grasping at straws.

The Power of Fodder

Cool, have you got any durability feats for them as well?

Yes. Starting right now, I want you to understand that Decepticons and Autobots arrived on Earth by crash landing into it from orbit.

Loading Video...

Yes, even the fodder ones.

Loading Video...

And it was revealed in the comics, and hinted at in my first clip, that they arrive in capsules that they transform into.

No Caption Provided

So no space ship, no protection, none of that. It is just them hitting the planet from orbit and getting back up unscathed. There is no reason to assume that their capsule modes are more durable either as there is no evidence for that. Before you ask why they go into capsule mode, it is likely to 1. Protect their vitals, mostly their head. 2. Aerodynamics, for when they reach the atmosphere of a planet since a sphere shape is going to work a lot better than a robot shape.

TL;DR Now you know that "fodder"characters can, again, take missile fire and walk to off (this one only lost a small piece of its tail) and can take getting launched from orbit just fine.

Yeah except he doesn't, unless you've got feats that show Ironhide putting out more power than a few million nuclear reactors It's no from me.

Do you really think that IM has that kind of power? I mean......this whale alien was no selling that laser.

Loading Video...

So you're argument for this is "larger = more durable" gotcha...

How? How do you extract the exact meanings from arguments that you want with full confidence, despite that clearly being the meaning? Larger thing requires larger attacks, obviously. Size does not equate durability.

VS Iron Man/Hulkbuster

and durability, and firepower, and strength, and versatility...but carry on.

Based on nothing but your own headcanon.

Yeah I've seen no evidence of that anywhere.

Doesn't matter. The voters aren't as blind as you are.

Based on what evidence exactly?

Based on the fact that Iron Man isn't significantly more durable than the decpticons that Ironhide one shots.

PFFFT LOL. Scans of Fracture at supersonic speed?

What is harder to hit, something faster than sound or something faster than eyesight?

Yeah I'm not seeing anything that comes close to supersonic speed.

He has hit jets in the comics before but since you don't like alt timeline feats (for some reason even if it is the same Ironhide), I will be respectful to your wishes.

Did you even read my opener or did you selectively choose to ignore all of the GIF's and scans of Iron Man flying in combat?

Wow, great counter. 3x Iron Man went h2h in an encounter with named opponents (what Ironhide is) countered because you showed Iron Man fighting fodder in the air. Great job disregarding arguments again.

Yeah I'm not even using Hulkbuster yet, so why you're trying to strawman is beyond me.

Straw? It's called preemptive counters. A strawman would be lying about your arguments then debunking them. Exactly what you did to me

Me:

Only Hulkbuster can hope to compete in this category, but even then Hulkbuster is mostly good against physical attacks (hence the name) while Ironhide is good against explosives and plasma which is much more useful in this battle.

You:

I'm sorry but are you actually being serious when you're saying this, you honestly think that the Hulkbuster has absolutely zero energy defense and can only take physical damage, so by your logic a Chitauri plasma spear should be able to one-shot the Hulkbuster armour...

Translation

Me:

Hulkbuster was built for physical conflict and Ironhide has better energy/exposion feats than Ironhide

You:

What? Hulkbuster only has physical durability and you think he can be oneshot by fodder?

Conclusion

My conclusion remains the same but I must say this was not enjoyable, I thought this would be a good fight but whether intentionally or not you repeatedly twisted my words and the scans while ignoring my arguments

Examples:

Scans

You:

You mean we clearly see Ironhide jumping out of the way of the explosion at the start of the GIF and wasn't even touched by it right?

GIF in Question

No Caption Provided

Clarification GIF

Twisting

Basically you are trying to make it seem like Ironhide was the bot that you can see dodging the blast when he clearly wasn't.

Words (as shown)

Me:

Only Hulkbuster can hope to compete in this category, but even then Hulkbuster is mostly good against physical attacks (hence the name) while Ironhide is good against explosives and plasma which is much more useful in this battle.

You:

I'm sorry but are you actually being serious when you're saying this, you honestly think that the Hulkbuster has absolutely zero energy defense and can only take physical damage, so by your logic a Chitauri plasma spear should be able to one-shot the Hulkbuster armour...

Translation

Me:

Hulkbuster was built for physical conflict and Ironhide has better energy/exposion feats than Ironhide

You:

What? Hulkbuster only has physical durability and you think he can be oneshot by fodder?

Ignoring Arguments

Me:

That truck was meant to protect the civilians behind Ironhide. Ironhide himself can eat a point blank missile from Starscream to the face. This GIF

You:

That literally does nothing to bolster your claim about the truck not protecting Ironhide, it was meant to protect the civilians and it did, but that does not change the fact that the truck also protected Ironhide. (No mention of Ironhide tanking the same missile with no truck).

You Again Later:

What feats would they be exactly? The ones where he's running away or the ones where he's protected by trucks?

The Problem

You present 2 counters to 3 of my scans. Do quick maths to show that 3-2 + 1 argument that you did not counter (AKA ignored).

P.S.

I rarely get salty over debates but I really hate it when my words are twisted. I hope you don't think I am bad mouthing you or anything since you did make some good points and outside of this I know you are a cool person. I apologize in advance if you get offended by anything I said.

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#29 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: Sorry about the aggressiveness in my post last night, I had a bit too much to drink, yeah I think I am, I'm probably just gonna go over it and double check everything, I'll let you know.

I finished 90% of my post before you told me this. So I went ahead and finished it. Tell me what you edit so I can edit it in my post.

Also, sorry for my saltiness.

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#30 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: Yeah don't worry about it man, I should've waited until today to post my counter, last night just got way too hectic and I got way too drunk and I don't remember writing most of the stuff in my counter if I'm honest. If anyone should be apologizing then it's me. But yeah I'll post my counters either today or tomorrow and then i'll open the thread for voting.

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#31 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

so much salt......

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#32 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: I thought Hulkbuster with his repairs, Veronica, would be 2 much for Ironhide

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#34 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

@_kingoflatveria: I agree actually. That is why she is limited here. Can only repair once.

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#35 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18883 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Edited by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters: Speed

I don't need to prove that since you did it for me, just now. Lookie here, Ironhide dodges tank shells

Dude, they are clearly rockets....I mean you can't even try and say otherwise since it's obvious to absolutely everyone that they are not tank shells.

Yes, that is how extreme and pointless the analogy you are making is.

Except it isn't pointless though is it, I've proven countless times that Iron Man is faster and that he's stronger than Ironhide, you haven't shown anything to prove otherwise.

When did I ever call those missiles short ranged rockets? I didn't, you simply assumed that they were but as two seconds of researched would have showed, Ironhide dodged attacks from Brawl who is a tank.

It doesn't matter whether Brawl is a tank, it's the fact that he never fired tank shells at Ironhide, only missiles, which you can clearly see in the GIF you yourself posted, so you're entire argument on Ironhide having faster reflexes than Iron Man is moot.

Ironhide, according to you, dodged 5 mach 5 projectiles. Iron Man side stepped one.

Dude I'm sorry but you can't be this dense...I mean seriously, they are obviously not tank shells, I just can't make it any simpler than that...

That's not even close to as impressive as dodging mach 5 projectiles while returning fire.

I can actually feel brain cells dying in my head when you consistently compare the velocity of short range rockets to the velocity of tank shells and I'm not even kidding anymore.

No, it is like compering a shot from a tank to a shot from a tank. It is literally apples to apples.

No it isn't since they are quite obviously different projectiles....

Dodging falling rocks? It shows good maneuverability sure

Reflexes, don't forget reflexes.

(and yes, since you were the one who brought up that number, I can spam it now).

No you can't since you haven't provided a single instance of Ironhide dodging something that fast.

You assumed that.

No mate, science knows that.

  • The average velocity of a rocket is 295 m/s.
  • The average velocity of a tank shell is 1,700 m/s

1,700 m/s > 295 m/s

That's not combat speed.

Yes it was, unless you think the F-22's were trying to play tag with him...

Ironhide was dodging mach 5 projectiles while returning fire.

I can't actually tell anymore whether your being serious or whether your just downright ignorant to the argument your trying to push...

Counters: Durability

I believe that you are misleading readers unintentionally or intentionally.

You misspelled informing.

Please tell me we are reading different comics. They are clearly not dead.

Please tell me you watched the first Iron Man film and remembered that the missiles don't explode automatically upon detonation and actually separate into a dozen smaller missiles.

Iron Man literally kills them the next page.

Please tell me you watched the first Iron Man film and remembered that the missiles don't explode automatically upon detonation and actually separate into a dozen smaller missiles....Like literally what happened in that scan.

Based on what?

Pffft LOL. I'll CAV you with Optimus Prime against Ironhide if you really want to try and argue that Ironhide > Optimus Prime.

Nah, seems like a good time to make an assumption though

How the hell can I make an assumption when I literally just watched the scene prior to writing that? I mean what....You've gotta stop reaching dude.

Nothing there indicates a struggle.

Really.....Bumblebee can't do it by himself so Ironhide helps him, and even then the truck is barely moving, that automatically = struggle.

Meanwhile, you've got Iron Man doing stuff like this by himself...

Loading Video...

So go ahead and keep trying to further your argument that Ironhide is stronger.

No, I would say that Ironhide looks much more badass wielding a tank.

Cool, wanna tell me when Tanks started using wheels instead of tracks, because that "tank" that Ironhide flipped over has wheels, which means it's either an armoured car or an armoured personnel carrier, I'll be generous and say it's an APC, that still only means it weighs around 15 tons, which guess what, doesn't make Ironhide stronger than Iron Man.

Ironhide would overpower Iron Man like so.

Yeah except Ironhide doesn't have the reactions to see Iron Man nor the strength feats to do that, so where exactly are you going with this?

They were both covered partially but Ironhide was unharmed.

Bumblebee was right next to the explosion...I mean dude, please go back and check your own posts before making statements such as that.

So why does Bublebee get destroyed?

Because Bumblebee was right next to the explosion, and not on the other side of the truck...

We also seem to have a different definition of the word "fire" since there is no point where he is on fire. Also he was never flippedhead over wheels. Here is the GIF slowed

Please try and keep up with your own arguments and my posts since my comment was quite obviously not directed towards that GIF.

It was directed towards this one:

No Caption Provided

You know, the one where he is flipped head over wheels and set on fire...

Nah, they are the kind of missiles that can knock an 86 foot tall deception. Seriously, even fodder decpticon can take multiple jet missiles.

LOL, yeah that Decepticon that is clearly on its last legs easily took those missiles without any strain whatsoever.

No, we literally see Ironhide being tagged.

No, we "literally" don't. Unless you want to argue that Ironhide lost a bit of weight and got taller then that isn't him.

No Caption Provided

That looks absolutely nothing like Ironhide. Try again. In fact if you want to actually double check, why not go back to your post and wait until the end, where you clearly see Ironhide jumping out of the way of the explosion...

Running away doesn't increse durability.

Cheers for that dose of knowledge Albert.

Why did you ignore this?

Ironhide himself can eat a point blank missile from Starscream to the face.

I didn't ignore it, I already addressed it in my previous post, I even addressed it in this post...

I knew that you would say it was the truck protecting Ironhide so I preemptively countered that by showing Ironhide tanking the same missile without cover. But you just straight up ignored it.

You didn't preempt anything otherwise you wouldn't have even bothered to post the truck GIF.

You mean the lasers that have feats of only cutting fodder or the plasma blasts (that I did address) that will do nothing?

Well according to you the plate that protected Iron Man during the Sokovia explosion was Vibranium, and Iron Man cut through it with those lasers, so take your pick. Either it was Vibranium and therefore Iron Man has feats of cutting through materials that are far more durable than Ironhide with ease or it was just a common metal and offered no protection to Iron Man and therefore Iron Man is more durable than Ironhide.

He was at the epicenter of the first blast and was inches away from the second.

Based on what? Those explosions were hilariously tiny compared to what came before them anyway, so where exactly were you going with this?

Are you claiming that Tony can react to mach 5 projectiles but Cap can blindside him?

Are you implying that you completely forgot that the repulsors have a small charge time?

You can't have the best of both worlds, so either Tony has slow reaction time or he reacted to Cap and adjusted his blast accordingly.

Or what actually happened was, Tony aimed at Bucky, charged up the repulsor and Cap jumped in the way during the final seconds, which is exactly what was shown on screen...

And no, you can't claim he was taken by surprise as Cap appeared in front of him, not anywhere else. Yes, it is sudden but that is literally what reaction speed is for. To react to a sudden situation.

I think you'll find I can claim that since that is exactly what happened....

I mean before you try to lowball.

You mean before I say what actually happened right, which is what I've been doing for the past 3 posts...

That's exactly why I showed their medium setting. There is no reason Blackout would use anything less than that.

Based on what?

Too bad he wasn't protected from most of that via the core thing he was heating which is a massive piece of metal.

"Well according to you the plate that protected Iron Man during the Sokovia explosion was Vibranium, and Iron Man cut through it with those lasers, so take your pick. Either it was Vibranium and therefore Iron Man has feats of cutting through materials that are far more durable than Ironhide with ease or it was just a common metal and offered no protection to Iron Man and therefore Iron Man is more durable than Ironhide."

As you can see the massive metal protects Tony and in the second image you can see the energy around the metal plate, showing that the metal plate partially blocked the blast.

Dude metal would be treated like tissue paper in comparison to an explosion of that magnitude, I mean you've seen what C4 does to steel right, it shreds through it like nothing.

It was quite tiny. Here it is in comparison to the Hulk, so yes I wholeheartedly believe that an attack that vaporizes cargo planes would easily one shot 2 or more of those.

So according to you, sheet metal is more durable than 2 ft of reinforced concrete, great I've heard it all now.

Yeah, except he does. That metal plate btw, is most likely Vibranium

"Well according to you the plate that protected Iron Man during the Sokovia explosion was Vibranium, and Iron Man cut through it with those lasers, so take your pick. Either it was Vibranium and therefore Iron Man has feats of cutting through materials that are far more durable than Ironhide with ease or it was just a common metal and offered no protection to Iron Man and therefore Iron Man is more durable than Ironhide."

The entire plan was also to keep the explosion sealed in so only Sokovia gets destroyed.

No, the plan was to plug one end of the explosion so the shockwave would feedback through the city and guarantee that Sokovia gets destroyed and not just blow chunks out of it since even then it would've caused a mass loss of life.

So basically

  1. Tony was shielded from the brunt of the damage by what is mostly Vibranium or some other really durable metal.

Either it's Vibranium and Tony has feats of cutting through materials much more durable than Ironhide or its regular metal and offered no protection to Tony and therefore Iron Man is more durable than Ironhide, take your pick.

  1. Even if Tony's shield wasn't Vibranium, multiple energy cores in Sokovia were, they would have absorbed a lot of the energy.

I'm beginning to doubt you have any idea about what you're talking about I really am...

  1. The entire strategy was the create a heat seal, which means that outside of Sokovia the damage wasn't as much

So the explosion just dramatically dips in destructive power just before it hits Tony, that's the argument your going for?

These factors all in all make this feat less impressive than Ironhide's. Also Ironhide is unharmed by this explosion as well as he is seen later, chipper as ever.

What explosion, all we see is everyone is okay, including the humans except for the old and defunct autobot (can't remember his name).

Are you serious? You think the Hulbuster is planetary? Oh wait, you never said that? Well, I thought we were just shoving words in each others mouths for the lolz.

Except for the fact I didn't even imply that Hulkbuster was planetary, you on the other hand implied that the Hulkbuster was only good against Physical attacks.

But seriously, I said

"but even then Hulkbuster is mostly good against physical attacks"

Not that it was only good against physical attacks.

Have you ever heard of the word Imply?

Countering Firepower:

Feats > statements. Ironhide was stated to have more weapons than a third world country and he was stated to be responsible for blowing up a planetoid. Show me something tangible.

Who made those statements, yes that is an appeal to authority.

Better tank busting than Iron Man.

You mean APC and it's not even that good, hell the humans are right next to the explosion and they're completely fine.

Ironhide weighs a couple tons, Iron Man weighs pounds.

Which has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the argument....

It was also creating sparks all over the road.

Which means it was an EMP-type attack and therefore has nothing to do with the power of the attack...

You are just downplaying for the sake of downplaying.......or maybe it's cause.

Not really mate, I just know that something that size that is basically an oversized unicycle would have an out of whack center of gravity...

And it continues. Why?

Because characters need their own feats to make the feats against them....good, I dunno just a wild shot in the dark...

Yes, they exist in the real world. Stop grasping at straws.

Then why didn't you bother posting feats then?

Yes. Starting right now, I want you to understand that Decepticons and Autobots arrived on Earth by crash landing into it from orbit.

Good for you, It doesn't change the fact that every single one of them dramatically reduced their speed just before entering the atmosphere, you know otherwise that girl who first saw Optimus Prime wouldn't even be alive, because y'know impact detonation....

So no space ship, no protection, none of that. It is just them hitting the planet from orbit and getting back up unscathed. There is no reason to assume that their capsule modes are more durable either as there is no evidence for that. Before you ask why they go into capsule mode, it is likely to 1. Protect their vitals, mostly their head. 2. Aerodynamics, for when they reach the atmosphere of a planet since a sphere shape is going to work a lot better than a robot shape.

Good for you, It doesn't change the fact that every single one of them dramatically reduced their speed just before entering the atmosphere, you know otherwise that girl who first saw Optimus Prime wouldn't even be alive, because y'know impact detonation....

TL;DR Now you know that "fodder"characters can, again, take missile fire and walk to off (this one only lost a small piece of its tail) and can take getting launched from orbit just fine.

TL;DR: You just wasted your last post trying to further your claims about the durability of the Transformers because you were on the backfoot and have wasted your post, and still haven't shown anything that comes close to the Sokovia explosion feat.

Do you really think that IM has that kind of power? I mean......this whale alien was no selling that laser.

"Whale alien" LOL, first of all you mean Leviathan, second of all not once does it say that the Laser is having no effect, only "we will lose power before we penetrate that shell". I.e. If Iron Man had a much larger power supply he probably could've done it.

How? How do you extract the exact meanings from arguments that you want with full confidence, despite that clearly being the meaning? Larger thing requires larger attacks, obviously. Size does not equate durability.

I'm glad you agree.

VS Iron Man/Hulkbuster

Based on nothing but your own headcanon.

You mean shown feats.

Doesn't matter. The voters aren't as blind as you are.

You better hope they're blind, because if you class being able to see as comparing a rocket to a tank shell then we're all screwed.

Based on the fact that Iron Man isn't significantly more durable than the decpticons that Ironhide one shots.

I think you'll find that going by feats, he is far more durable than Ironhide let alone fodder decepticons.

What is harder to hit, something faster than sound or something faster than eyesight?

I'm being serious when I ask this, and I mean absolutely no disrespect and I apologize in advance if you take offense to this, but you can't be that dumb...

He has hit jets in the comics before but since you don't like alt timeline feats (for some reason even if it is the same Ironhide), I will be respectful to your wishes.

Because you asked me if I wanted to include alternate timelines or keep it strictly canon.

Wow, great counter. 3x Iron Man went h2h in an encounter with named opponents (what Ironhide is) countered because you showed Iron Man fighting fodder in the air. Great job disregarding arguments again.

Okay here's 3 extremely easy counters.

  1. Iron Man vs. Iron Monger - Iron Man was inexperienced and had little to no experience fighting in the air.
  2. Iron Man vs. Whiplash - Fairly obvious, the suitcase suit wasn't equipped for flight...
  3. Iron Man vs. Aldrich Killian - Why would he need to fly when he already has JARVIS controlling the Iron Legion literally sweeping the entire area?

Straw? It's called preemptive counters.

No dude, you tried to straw man..

A strawman would be lying about your arguments then debunking them. Exactly what you did to me

No I never LOL. Also, the definition of straw man is this:

  • A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

In other words, you tried to straw man but failed.

My conclusion remains the same but I must say this was not enjoyable, I thought this would be a good fight but whether intentionally or not you repeatedly twisted my words and the scans while ignoring my arguments

I actually don't even care for this CAV one little bit anymore, you consistently misunderstood my arguments intentionally, you tried to straw man me, you failed to provide any proof for your claims, you completely mistook your own character for a completely different character...I just....Nah....

Basically you are trying to make it seem like Ironhide was the bot that you can see dodging the blast when he clearly wasn't.

Already irrefutably countered this above.

Words (as shown)

Already addressed above.

The Problem

You present 2 counters to 3 of my scans. Do quick maths to show that 3-2 + 1 argument that you did not counter (AKA ignored).

AKA: Forgotten about.

Closing thoughts:

Same as in my opener, as my opponent has brought forward zero evidence to back up his statements of Ironhide possessing the advantage in the X category.

Yeah don't come and ask me for a CAV in future if this is how you're going to debate, reminds me of Brony during my Silver Surfer vs. Thor debate against him.

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#37 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't even care who wins this anymore, I'm just glad its over...

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#38 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

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#39 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18883 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: It says open but I let Citizen take the wheel after my second post

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#42 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

@_kingoflatveria: Lol. You've said that twice. I'll save you from having to say it a third time tho.

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#43 Posted by buildhare (8866 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: All scans I posted came from Iron Man 2: Public Identity.

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#45 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

This was done rather quickly.

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#46 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father: It was cut short.

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#47 Posted by buildhare (8866 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizensurfer:

I don't think anything before the IM3 Prelude is canon anymore.

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#48 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18080 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizensurfer:

I don't think anything before the IM3 Prelude is canon anymore.

To my knowledge it is, it ties-in the conversation between Tony & Theddeus at the end of The Incredible Hulk.

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#50 Posted by buildhare (8866 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: What changed?

They were more self contained stand alone stories with more ridiculous plots. War Machine and Iron Man fight a weird robot guy, Steve fights a giant octopus etc. The stuff now fits the universe a lot closer and is more closely linked to the timeline, so it's more epilogues and prologues then actual stories. IIRC they got to 2013 and decided the earlier stuff was going to be stories inspired by the movies rather than directly canon to them.

@buildhare said:

@citizensurfer:

I don't think anything before the IM3 Prelude is canon anymore.

To my knowledge it is, it ties-in the conversation between Tony & Theddeus at the end of The Incredible Hulk.

It was originally canon I think, it isn't now. There are statements from creators before 2013 saying it is but that was before they changed the general direction of the tie ins.

Doesn't really change anything given what you used is pretty much the same level as the things War Machine did in the IM3 prelude.