CaV: MCU Captain Marvel (money_brings_happiness) vs DCEU Superman (kk88) - VOTING CLOSED

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deactivated-5e80d2cfcca66

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KryptonianKing88

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No Caption Provided

Final

Carol's Striking II:

Base striking:

CM has shown time and time again that her strikes cause energy AOE's.

From what we see, Carol's base striking is a combination of her raw striking power with help from her photon blasts. That's what causes the shockwave and melts the bridge. This energy blast won't do anything against someone who can withstand being near a nuclear blast, and her raw punching power is pretty much featless.

The second her fist makes contact with the ship a massive explosion happens. This part of the ship is literally the hull of it there is nothing here to cause an explosion.

Where was this explosion when she decked Thanos or charged at him in the farm. Why do these explosions only occur when she interacts with ships?

The same thing happens with other MCU characters such as Thor who causes lightning AOE's when he destroys ships. It isn't coming from the ships themselves it is coming from their strikes releasing energy and destroying massive amounts of metal.

This further proves my point. Thor's lightning cloak didn't explode one bit against outriders or Thanos, only when he interacts with ships and their various flammable parts.

Further counters to Superman's striking. Creating a small hole in a ship does not equate to decimating millions of tons of metal. . And the accuser ship CM destroys is literally gone for the most part she didn't just destroy it she legit disintegrates parts of the metal.

He did that with a casual knock. Why wouldn't he be able to destroy more of the metals given more momentum?

And she did not disintegrate any metal. She flew through it, hitting several explosive parts along the way causing it to explode

Notice that when she leaves the ship. New explosions are still occurring. It's not even gone as you claim. When Ronan retreats, you can see it's burning wreck.

So far, she hasn't shown any striking more impressive than Superman busting through a reentry lvl wall, and energy component of her striking isn't enough to someone who can no sell the Capital explosion or fly through missiles.

Durability II

Thor

My scaling to Thor is fine. Thor was knocked out. While he was beaten previously there is an obvious gap in durability. Thor was ragdolled and beat up in under ten punches every time he fought Thanos. CM no sold his headbutt which seems to be one of his best physical attacks. It did more damage then his punches did to both Thor and Ironman.

Thor took several punches and kicks before getting KO'd by the headbutt. Carol dodged his hits and got similarly ragdolled before no selling the headbutt. While there is a durability gap, she is fresh compared to him who was visibly bleeding.

And no it did not do more than his regular hits. We saw him one shot Worthy Cap right after with a punch. It's obvious that both Cap and Thor were weak from the beating they took before

Missiles II

Maybe they are nuke level, but the explosion she flew through clearly wasn't. The explosion was maybe 5x the length of the missile (200ft credit to Death4Bunnies). Again, around large building sized

Rain Fire!I

These shots aren't that deadly. A bit deadlier than Hulk a second after transforming, but they're clearly not leaving massive holes in the ground.

Iron Man was seen pushing a dead soldier off him after the van explosion. He likely got ragdolled alongside everyone else

You also claimed Superman potentially had planet level strength and durability as well. This is simply false but even if I were to entertain the idea the missiles in Captain Marvel were going to wipe out all life on earth if taken at face value would make CM planet level. This is obviously not true but that level of logic simply doesn't make sense. The world engine beam works by manipulating gravity Superman is infinitely less affected than a planet due to the nature of the beam.

We know Carol is not planetary because the Snap is only vaguely feasible for her to do, which is at best continental level. The beam Superman took was not just applying gravity, but pushing back hundreds of thousands of tons of water as well

And Superman happens to be at the center of it, making it much more impressive. This feat alone is enough to tank anything she can dish out

Nothing you've shown is enough to tank repeated bullrushes from Clark.

STRENGTH II

Thanos/Thor scaling: I've already explained why the ring feat isn't that impressive. Thor had to add the extra force to break maybe a building sized block of ice, after that the rings were moving on their own. It's below Superman flying against hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of tons of force.

Thanos didn't use momentum to throw her. She went for the gauntlet and stopped. Thanos spun and threw her. No momentum, but she was off balance.

She overpowered one hand. I repeat, ONE HAND, that happened to be experiencing the burning power that brought the Hulk to his knees. She did not overpower his full body at all. Your gif shows she gets him off balance and he quickly uses his other hand as support, stopping her dead. His full body strength brought her to a halt

No Caption Provided

Here it is for reference. Notice the lack of explosions when she bullrushes him.

She blocks his arm with her leg so he can't throw her off, but he still steadily overpowers her, and he also overpowers her upper body with his head. He's stronger.

You've presented two feats to scale Carol's strength from: the ring feat and her missile feat. Superman flying through the WE is atleast as good as both even without the added context of him being weakened by the Kryptonian atmosphere.

Speed II:

she crosses thousands of miles during it.

She is not traveling anywhere near that fast and she does not have the benefit of cinematic timing to say she's fighting any faster than what's shown on screen since we see Ronan tracking her.

Go up to the Ronan video. She enters the ship at about 36 seconds in and leaves at around 41. Divide 5 km by that and you get an aerial combat speed of 1000 m/s or around mach 3. This is actually very consistent with Thanos reacting to her and the reaction feats of Thor, Cap, etc.

And her perception speed is also insane as she is able to search an entire planet meaning she will have to be able to see while flying at massively hypersonic speeds.

Again, this isn't meant to be a feat. Does Thor have FTL reactions since he can steer the Bifrost to Wakanda despite not knowing that's where he needed to go? Also, how do you know she didn't get lucky and find his farm quickly with her mach 3 speed?

And CM also has the old reliable AOE to slow him down.

Enough to KO super soldiers, but it's not registering to a guy tiers above them

She still gets blitzed and statued like Wonder Woman despite her Thor level combat speed

HV:

She did not fly through a nuke level explosion, so it likely does not compare to heat vision.

Reentry is 3000 degrees Fahrenheit, the surface of the Sun (Heat Vision) is 10,000.

She hasn't shown the feats to tank heat vision

Conclusion

Superman is tough enough to tank anything she throws at him, especially her punches and their energy blasts

Superman is bare minimum strong enough to compete

Superman holds a vast speed advantage, being able to statue people who are at least as fast as Carol (highballed, her blindly bee-lining through a ship isn't indicative of her speed against an actual opponent)

Superman can still easily fry her since her best quantifiable heat feat is 3 times below Clark's vision

Superman hits harder since he has feats besides plowing through explosive ships, such as creating crane-toppling shockwaves with his bullrushes or casually busting a Kryptonian wall

-

So, I think it still goes the same way. Superman either pinballs her all throughout the city in an extended "battle" or fries her with heat vision

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KryptonianKing88

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Money_Brings_Happiness

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@kryptonianking88: Are you satisfied with the post, if you are I am willing to let votes be open.

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KryptonianKing88

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Money_Brings_Happiness

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Shinne

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Can I vote against both of you?

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KryptonianKing88

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@lan_fan: lol vote for whose argument was least sh*t

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Crunch5481

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@kryptonianking88: @money_brings_happiness:

I'm going to have to give my vote to KryptonianKing88.

At first I was reluctant to vote at all because I feared my own opinions on the fight itself would interfere, but after reading through the posts each multiple times I can confidently say that is not the case.

I believe KryptonianKing88 deserves this win for having the better argument. Neither side was perfect as is practically always the case, however KryptonianKing demonstrated more precision in his words and arguments. For example Money says,

"She was likely traveling hundreds of times the speed of sound if not more in the final battle of CM,"

and he uses this point often in reference to Captain Marvel's speed. Money consistently used the phrase "massively supersonic" to describe her speed in the final fight scene, but failed to further clarify or explain why with more depth. KryptonianKing responded to this with,

"Her combat speed is clearly not supersonic the same way a fighter pilot is not supersonic. We see her actual combat speed is maybe super soldier tier since she gets tagged by Thanos, who gets tagged by super soldiers,"

This is a good counter point, as it gives a direct comparison using a fighter pilot as an example, as well as using her fight with Thanos as a reference point. This counter isn't perfect, but it is fairly precise and the evidence is direct footage. Money then counters back this point with,

"You vastly underestimate how much distance CM is covering in the final battle of her movie. The actual space fight take place in under a minute and she crosses thousands of miles during it. Her ariel combat speed is easily equal to Superman's."

He claims it happens in under a minute which is an easily verifiable statement just by looking at footage (I didn't verify I'm taking his word for it), but then he claims she crosses thousands of miles and gives no supporting evidence for this. This claim of distance is not verified by simply watching the video. This is just one example, but there are many instances of big numbers being thrown around on both sides without qualifying evidence. However, from what I can tell Money's arguments contain this pattern to a higher degree. A lot of the strength, striking, and durability points from Money attempt to use fan calcs. However, Money never acknowledges any limitations of any of the fan calcs, nor is much explanation given to them. Many of them are simply mentioned and seemingly thrown around and meant to be used as hardlines rather than crude approximations.

KryptonianKing in his last post does a quick speed calculation for Captain Marvel's flight speed and he explains the process he went through. He gave timestamps and demonstrated the mathematical operations he used. This isn't entirely necessary, particularly when referencing calcs that were not done by yourself, but it is certainly helping his argument to thoroughly explain himself.

KryptonianKing also does a good job dismantling part of CM's striking argument,

"Notice that when she leaves the ship. New explosions are still occurring. It's not even gone as you claim. When Ronan retreats, you can see it's burning wreck."

Money was trying to claim the explosions were just an interaction of CM with pure metal, but KK88 countered and explained why that wasn't the case.

A tip for you in the future Money, try and diversify your word choice more and try to drop some adjectives/adverbs. The more adjectives/adverbs you use the less precise it seems. I noticed you tend to use the word "literally" quite often and it becomes stale. Using the same word makes it seem like your knowledge is not complete, lacking somehow, or maybe that you're unsure. In many cases it would have simply been better to leave it out. You also used "likely" repeatedly at times and this denotes uncertainty which is very bad to repeatably bring up in a debate.

With that said it was a good read guys. And I would like to restate that my vote goes to KryptonianKing88.

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Shinne

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#60  Edited By Shinne

My vote goes to @money_brings_happiness. He practically won all the categories except for speed, but that's only because he admitted himself that Carol is slower. He still gave decent feats in the speed category, and if he had pushed through, he could've probably proven that CM is also faster for all I know. The downfall started when @kryptonianking88 posted hyperbole stuff in his opener, especially strength. He also posted scaling based feats without trying to explain what feats we're supposed to scale those from. He didn't even post the proofs, smh. This is terrible... Truly terrible. I'm not even sure he thinks Superman could win this match-up, probably not.

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Money_Brings_Happiness

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@crunch5481: Thanks for the tips I will make sure to further diversify my words and I do understand your gripes with my argument and I now realize that I should have further explained my claims on CM's speed as well.

Though I do believe my striking arguments were solid I understand your stance.

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KryptonianKing88

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Money_Brings_Happiness

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@kryptonianking88: Three days I feel by then anyone who wants to vote should be able have voted.

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PaulPogba

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#64  Edited By PaulPogba

@money_brings_happiness: my vote goes to you. I feel you did a great job on proving Carol's stats and striking were superior to Clark and countered his damage output well. Besides speed, I was not impressed with the feats brought up for Superman. Overall you get my vote for that, the argument about Superman being stronger than a planet wasn't consistent to close the strenght gap between those two characters.

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Money_Brings_Happiness

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So far it is 2:1

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AllHellKingDox

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KK88 lost what a scrub

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KryptonianKing88

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PaulPogba

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#70  Edited By eri123  Online

Both Money Brings Happines and @kryptonianking88 wanked their characters but KK88's wank was worse as his strength feats for Superman were hyperbole and outliers.He got stomped there and he lost the majority of the other arguments.His point about Carol not causing the explosions herself when she busted the ships could have been a game changer if he/she looked into some VFX quotes and Endgame script where it actually says that Carol wasn't the reason of the explosions herself both in the Sanctuary and Accuser ship.But MBH countered this well and showed how Carol would hurt Superman with her bullrushes and striking.He/She also showed that Superman wouldn't be able to hurt Captain Marvel.

My vote goes @money_brings_happiness

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Archangel01

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My vote is for Kryptonian king👍

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Namebk

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#72 Namebk  Online

I feel like mbh proved that Captain Marvel will be able to perceive Superman because of her perception speed. He/she did a good job saying that since they both have flight this battle will most likely take place in the air where Captain Marvel has the advantage. Mbh did a good job explaining how Captain Marvel effortlessly destroying steel is far more impressive than Superman destroying concrete. It helped him/her solidify Captain Marvel's stat advantage over Superman. You have my vote @money_brings_happiness

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KryptonianKing88

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#73  Edited By KryptonianKing88

5-2

for money

Open for 1 more day

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KryptonianKing88

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