Rules:
Victory by incap, KO, or death.
Both combatants are in-character, but fighting seriously as enemies.
Both combatants have basic knowledge on their opponent's skills and gear.
Standard gear for each. Captain America gets his classic Vibranium shield. Gamora gets her swords.
Starting distance is 40 feet.
Location:
I doubt this is a necessary warning, but there will be spoilers ahead for pretty much every MCU film featuring Cap, excluding Endgame assuming this debate lasts long enough for it to come out.
I doubt I have to do much introducing for Captain America, especially this version.
In 1942, the ambitious soldier Steve Rogers was chosen for an experimental super-soldier program to serve as an exemplar for American forces, not because of his physical strength but because of his unusual courage and selflessness. Obviously, the experiment was a massive success, and Captain America went on to become a national icon and beat the crap out of a whole bunch of Nazis with sci-fi guns.
After a long stint being frozen in ice, Cap was discovered in the modern era and joined the Avengers, leading them to victory along with the guidance of Nick Fury and SHIELD. His resistance to the restrictive Sokovia Accords, along with his defense of his brainwashed childhood friend Bucky Barnes, eventually led him into conflict with SHIELD and turned him into a fugitive from the US government, but in spite of all of that he has retained his strict moral compass and sense of justice. Lately he has been fighting Thanos and presumably working through his trauma, along with the rest of the remaining 50% of the universe. Etc etc.
He has been described as a "peak human" as a result of the super soldier serum, but, as with many comic book characters, I honestly consider that a very conservative description, considering that he is capable of patently superhuman feats. A lot of the MCU is inspired by the Ultimate comics and Cap seems to be no exception; the serum has given him really exceptional physical attributes even compared to the MCU's other top tier non-powered humans. So let's get into it.
So, to open, Cap is consistently at the one-to-several-ton level of strength in both lifting and striking, with a huge host of examples to pull from. Gamora is pretty lacking in feats overall compared to Steve, but I do know that what striking feats she has are pretty much comparable to standard Cap fare without very much that really goes above-and-beyond.
Now, I know we all know that Cap threw a motorcycle to take down a Jeep full of Hydra guys, and as silly as it is, I personally feel Cap has been pretty consistently portrayed at this level of strength throughout his appearances. In basically every fight we see him ragdolling ordinary humans and human-sized objects to the point where any individual soldier is completely outclassed in a fight against him.
Cap is able to knock around hundreds of pounds without a problem; his strikes are able to send even body-armored and enhanced individuals flying away dozens of feet. While Gamora has no trouble with ordinary fodder, I have not seen her demonstrate the same overwhelming physical advantage against ordinary foes.
Considering his ability to damage and stun superhumanly-durable characters like Spider-Man
who has tanked hits from the Shocker,
and Corvus Glaive
who was able to take hits from (an injured- but not entirely weakened-!) Vision, I don't see much of an argument for Cap being able to have at least a comparable impact on Gamora, if not more, considering her own relative lack of impressive durability showings compared to those characters.
Gamora's swords are the primary concern here. Cap is not blade-proof, so well-placed strikes from those weapons could prove fatal. However, Cap's fighting style frequently makes disarming opponents a priority (you can see this in fights against the Winter Soldier, Crossbones, Corvus), and it's likely that he will attempt to rid Gamora of those swords and force her to rely on hand-to-hand. If this happens, I'm confident Gamora will not have much of a shot at beating Steve. He has gotten back up after, and even straight-up tanked, much worse blows than what she is capable of dishing out.
Cap has fought enhanced opponents like Ultron, Iron Man and Loki while taking blows from each, and can tank punches from the Winter Soldier's arm,
strong enough to put a fist-sized dent in the road with one punch,
without any immediate injury.
He was even able to take a number of these blows to the face without even being knocked unconscious at the conclusion of Winter Soldier.
Cap has a very strong record against blunt force attacks, and I will be very surprised if you can provide a solid argument for Gamora competing in a scenario where she is disarmed.
At least based on my recollection, I don't anticipate much argument hinging on Gamora's reaction or combat speed outpacing Cap's, so I'm not going to emphasize it in my opener. If it becomes important though I will provide counters to back up Cap's speed. I will provide a more substantial argument for Cap's overall fighting skill though.
People generally give Cap a lot of credit for being a highly skilled fighter, and while I don't deny it, I do think this is one area in which his abilities are somewhat overblown. He doesn't really have a lot of quantifiable showings of pure skill, and because he has such an overwhelming physical advantage against normal human opponents, it can be hard to separate his skill showings from his raw strength. However, I do believe he has enough to prove he has substantial CQC skill, and more importantly, that he is skilled enough to beat Gamora, who I would argue suffers from a similar lack of quantifiable H2H feats.
In terms of general skill, Cap clearly demonstrates martial arts ability in many fights where I think it is pretty clear that he is utilizing technique to counter attacks and maintain a close quarters advantage.
This includes the ability to engage in very fast-paced bouts and even maintain the upper hand in fights against opponents of a similar physical caliber to him, like Bucky or Crossbones.
I have no doubt that you are going to emphasize Gamora's lifetime of training under Thanos, so I will just add that Cap was able to give a fight to other children of Thanos that can be scaled to characters superior to Gamora.
While I don't believe in using choreography alone to compare characters' fighting skills (since the quality of fight choregraphy doesn't necessarily translate to how skilled characters are written to be), I also don't think we can be too reliant on statements, which also do not always translate well to how effective characters actually are in fights. Gamora doesn't have very many actual showings of H2H skill to compare to Cap.
I'm just gonna post this
to establish the strength of Vibranium. I think we can both agree that Cap's shield can stand up to any attack from Gamora, so the real issue is how well he can use it, and in turn how well she can get around it.
As an offensive tool, the shield is highly effective. It gives him ranged capabilities that Gamora does not have:
And he can use ricochet to fight from behind cover and close in for melee.
The Vibranium also substantially amplifies his striking power, enough to:
Damage Chitauri through their armor (y'know, the metal they used to use to pierce Luke Cage's skin),
penetrate Ultron's body,
and bust through Iron Man's armor.
I think it is more than reasonable to suggest that Cap should have no trouble incapacitating Gamora at close range by making use of the shield.
As a defensive tool, well... I mean, it's a shield, lol. There are countless examples of Cap using the shield to block gunfire, etc, almost always to great effect and allowing him to completely negate otherwise lethal attacks.
To put a finer point on it, I'll just point out that Cap uses the shield defensively with enough precision to routinely redirect projectiles at opponents.
And he is fully capable of utilizing the shield defensively in a purely close-quarters fight like he will be fighting against Gamora:
The shield is a pretty hard counter to Gamora's biggest advantage in this fight, which is her own weapons. Cap is adept enough at fighting defensively with the shield to block attacks from her and disarm her, and the shield's offensive capabilities just amplify his existing advantages over her.
My take on this matchup is pretty straightforward. Captain America and Gamora are pretty similar fighters- both physically enhanced and both reliant on close-quarters skill to overwhelm opponents. Owing to Gamora's lack of showings, though, I believe it is difficult to argue that she stacks up to Cap, pound-for-pound. He's a versatile fighter, and physically overwhelming. His shield allows him to counter Gamora's melee weapons, and otherwise he can outmatch her in a close-quarters fight without too much difficulty.
I anticipate that the fight will open with an attack from Gamora that Cap would be able to block, and a close-quarters engagement would ensue. Cap can obviously glean right off the bat that her swords are the biggest threat and get rid of them by making use of his shield, then dispatch her with melee shield strikes and regular old fisticuffs.
Gamora will put up a good fight, to be sure, but I really don't think she is anything Cap hasn't dealt with before.
Thanks for sticking with my overly-long opening post, as usual, everyone :P
@psy-scarlet: Here we go. Good luck to you; looking forward to your opener!
Okay, credit where credit is due, some solid showings for Gamora here. But I still don't feel enough has been presented to really suggest Gamora can beat Cap even if she is close to him physically.
In terms of strength, I don't really think you've done much to support Gamora's striking strength. Maybe it doesn't seem so important because of her swords- but I would argue it's essential since I think the fight will boil down to H2H.
Gamora is also capable of lifting up a large Canon (The size of a small Car) and hold it up without any pressure (This makes her around the 1-2 ton range)
In terms of raw strength Gamora is probably comparable, maybe even a notch stronger than Cap (that gun feat is a lot more impressive than I'd remembered) but does not appear to translate very well to her actual H2H showings, which are limited; certainly not better than Cap's. So, granted, if they grappled, she could probably restrain him. But for the more direct issue, how she could compete in a fistfight, the comparison is weaker.
Here she sends multiple large aliens flying with her blows (These Aliens are far larger that Cap/Also This happened in a tie in comic )
I mean, first of all, Gamora is human sized and these aliens are roughly comparable to her in size, so I don't think it's fair to say this is much more impressive than knocking around human opponents. But we also don't know if these are strikes or throws. And even if we are being generous and saying these are single blows, it's just a single showing of the way Cap consistently bodies fodder across his showings (and it's telling that this is simply one showing from a tie-in comic at that).
And then we come to this:
This is where gamora really passes Captain America in terms of Strength,she was capable of holding on to Drax and the ship while it's flying at re-entry speeds (Also great durability for her enhanced Skelton)
Which is a solid feat, but I'm not sure it really has much significance for this debate. Not to split hairs, but with her arms extended like this it really feels more like a demonstration of the strength of her skeleton (and her grip strength I suppose). Cap would have a difficult time ripping off her arms I suppose but I don't think this does much to defend her from blunt force trauma to the chest or face, which would be the real concern fighting against Cap.
I'm gonna address durability in general here because, while Gamora does have a few good feats, I think you're overestimating her a little in this area at least compared to Cap.
This is were Gamora really shines and we both can say that's she's more durable then Cap (Combined with her healing factor this makes her extra hard to put down)
I mean, I can see an argument for this by some small margin, but I don't think Gamora could be said to have a significant advantage here as you are making out her out to. So you mainly cite these two explosions as evidence of Gamora's durablity but I don't think this is outside of Cap's range at all. Honestly I still think Cap's durability showings are better (and consistent enough to be easily verified).
Here she's quite capable of tanking a close range explosion (Form a very large ship)
You describe this as a close range explosion but really she is closer to the outskirts of it. I mean, clearly she is affected by the blast but she and Nebula are far enough away from the ship that when the explosion goes off they are pushed out of range of the actual flames; to me the essence of this feat is being knocked away from the source of the explosion and taking the impact of that, which is a feat I have multiple examples of for Cap in my opener, where his shield is at the nexus of an explosion and Cap tanks the blast, being knocked away from it (most notably being knocked off an elevated highway into a bus and shrugging it off). Now, you can argue that the blast from the ship near Gamora was larger and thus more powerful, but remember, these examples for Cap are him being blasted away from the center of the actual blast. Given that Gamora was not in the ship that exploded and was instead off to the side of it, I think don't think it's fair to say she took a direct explosion any more than Cap did when blocking one with his shield.
And just to further bolster this point, if you want a comparison where Cap actually directly took the force of an explosion without his shield, you can reference the Avengers. Cap took a direct blast from one of the Chitauri guns
And we see numerous times in the battle that Chitauri blasters generate explosions from single shots.
So I hardly think it is a far-fetched argument to make that Cap can take the brunt of an explosion at least to some degree. If anything, I think the fact that Cap walked off the Winter Soldier example with no injury whatsoever honestly makes that feat quite a bit more impressive than your example for Gamora.
Here she's capable of tanking an explosion while she's in the pod that exploded
This showing I think can be even more easily compared to Cap, since she is being blasted from a pod that takes the shot from behind.
it's fair to say that she is more durable
Overall I don't agree, but even if we equated them or even gave Gamora a slight edge, I don't think it makes a difference, because Gamora lacks striking feats in comparison to Cap to suggest that in H2H she could put out as much damage as he could that would need to be soaked up. Cap can also outfight Gamora which makes this even less of an issue, as I will get into now.
If she's not on Cap's level she's at least comparable...
This is a point I can half agree to, and half disagree with. That is, I am definitely willing to concede that Gamora is more agile, but definitely not faster.
Here she dodges a close range Energy blaster (After it's been fired)
She's not reacting to the blast after it's fired. This is an aim dodging feat; you can clearly see her spot the guy with the gun and as she stands she is primed to avoid a shot. It's a good reaction feat but you can't say she's moving faster than the projectile. Reacting to energy blast shots is definitely not anything new for Cap (12) and given Cap's sheer volume of this type of feat compared to the limited examples from Gamora I think Cap's reaction times have a much better basis for argument.
Gamora also capable of disarming multiple opponents and knocking them out before Drax could react (Great skill showing and it's shows how fast she is in combat)
On top of this, Cap has much better demonstrations of speed in H2H combat in general, especially compared to someone with limited showings like Gamora. Quickly handling a couple of prison inmates is not bad and definitely makes Gamora look skilled in H2H but really this is nothing compared to Cap in a similar situation.
Setting aside the fact that these are SHIELD agents that thus demonstrably have a level of training, this is just overall a much better demonstration of H2H combat speed and skill, dealing with numerous opponents at once even while restrained. So Cap here is at a disadvantage compared to Gamora and dealing with much more substantial numbers. As I showed in his opener with fights against Bucky and Rumlow, Cap actually has multiple showings of fast-paced H2H combat against opponents physically comparable to himself, and he has demonstrated the speed and technique necessary to keep up.
Capable of quickly breaking out of Nebula 's choke hold (While just being able to tank an explosion)
This is just about the only comparable skill showing you have for Gamora in dealing with someone of a similar physical caliber, and while it's alright, it's really just one move and doesn't do much for the comparison. Being injured after the explosion doesn't say anything about her skill relative to Nebula because Nebula was just in the exact same blast and thus at the same disadvantage. And let's not forget, Gamora actually lost this fight, which was really emotionally charged and off-kilter to begin with.
Based on actual showings I think it's pretty clear that Gamora hasn't demonstrated the same capacity for fast-paced close combat that Cap has.
Here she's capable of taking down multiple fodders using her agility to gain momentum to boost her strikes (This is extremely important to this fight because I think Gamora can use her superior agility and maybe were down Cap and then go for the killing blow)
As I mentioned, agility is one area where I can concede Gamora's advantage, so the issue is really how useful this is. I think just based on Gamora's own showings it allows her to use flashy acrobatics in a fight, for instance jump kicks and the like, but the fight should still be fairly grounded considering the relatively open arena, similar to Cap's fight against Batroc, where I think he has already proven that he's capable of dealing with a more acrobatic opponent. His actual martial arts skill combined with his shield should mostly mitigate this issue.
One last point I want to make since you seem to emphasize it in your conclusion:
I think this fight would go on for a while Gamora (Yeah she's equip with two sets of lungs making her last longer then Steve) she probably use her agility to out pace Captain Ameri
I think the argument that Gamora has more stamina would logically hold up well if we were comparing Gamora to a regular human, but the enhancement from the super soldier serum gives Cap enhanced endurance and stamina and we can see this demonstrated when you compare, for instance, Steve to Sam (which I'm posting this below as an outro). I haven't seen any actual demonstrations of Gamora's own level of stamina so I don't see much justification for putting her above Cap in this category.
I'm just as confident as before in saying Gamora doesn't really measure up to Cap. In terms of durability I think Cap compares well, and his superior striking feats combined with the amplified strikes from the shield should be enough to suggest he can put out more blunt damage than Gamora can, and likewise take more blunt strikes from her. His shield counters Gamora's use of her swords, and his combat speed and skill should easily allow him to outfight her and prevent her from landing any lethal blows. I mentioned before, but will emphasize again, that Cap generally makes disarming lethal weapons an immediate priority in fights (Red Skull, Winter Soldier, Crossbones), so this should put the swords out of the picture not too long after they engage close-up. Afterward, Cap has a significant advantage and can beat her down.
@psy-scarlet: Off to a good start; first round of counters up! How many rounds you think we're going for?
In terms of raw strength Gamora is probably comparable, maybe even a notch stronger than Cap (that gun feat is a lot more impressive than I'd remembered) but does not appear to translate very well to her actual H2H showings, which are limited; certainly not better than Cap's. So, granted, if they grappled, she could probably restrain him. But for the more direct issue, how she could compete in a fistfight, the comparison is weaker.
Once again if the fight goes to a fist fight I actually think Cap would overwhelm her a bit but I believe Gamora would be smart enough to utilized her superior agility combined with her Knife (Which I don't think she would use if she starts with her god slayer) Which she did against The clone of Thanos,he expected her to fight with her single sword but shocking him when she finished him of with her Dagger
Which is a solid feat, but I'm not sure it really has much significance for this debate. Not to split hairs, but with her arms extended like this it really feels more like a demonstration of the strength of her skeleton (and her grip strength I suppose). Cap would have a difficult time ripping off her arms I suppose but I don't think this does much to defend her from blunt force trauma to the chest or face, which would be the real concern fighting against Cap.
05.22-05.24 : Gamora and Neblua was launched into an Solid wall of space rocks at very high speeds she capable of tanking multiple blows form Captain America (BTW I posted the feat to showcase how strong her Skelton is)
You describe this as a close range explosion but really she is closer to the outskirts of it. I mean, clearly she is affected by the blast but she and Nebula are far enough away from the ship that when the explosion goes off they are pushed out of range of the actual flames; to me the essence of this feat is being knocked away from the source of the explosion and taking the impact of that, which is a feat I have multiple examples of for Cap in my opener, where his shield is at the nexus of an explosion and Cap tanks the blast, being knocked away from it (most notably being knocked off an elevated highway into a bus and shrugging it off). Now, you can argue that the blast from the ship near Gamora was larger and thus more powerful, but remember, these examples for Cap are him being blasted away from the center of the actual blast. Given that Gamora was not in the ship that exploded and was instead off to the side of it, I think don't think it's fair to say she took a direct explosion any more than Cap did when blocking one with his shield.
First off you're right of them being in the outskirts of the explosion but if you look closer at the Gif that's where the Explosion sparks (Circled in White),So basically a close range explosion (Count how many times I said explosion LOL) BTW impressive durability feats for Cap
Overall I don't agree, but even if we equated them or even gave Gamora a slight edge, I don't think it makes a difference, because Gamora lacks striking feats in comparison to Cap to suggest that in H2H she could put out as much damage as he could that would need to be soaked up. Cap can also outfight Gamora which makes this even less of an issue, as I will get into now.
Lastly I want to say that I underestimated Cap durability but I still stand by my point that's she's more durable IMO
She's not reacting to the blast after it's fired. This is an aim dodging feat; you can clearly see her spot the guy with the gun and as she stands she is primed to avoid a shot. It's a good reaction feat but you can't say she's moving faster than the projectile. Reacting to energy blast shots is definitely not anything new for Cap (12) and given Cap's sheer volume of this type of feat compared to the limited examples from Gamora I think Cap's reaction times have a much better basis for argument.
If you look closer at the Gif you'll see that her body moves while the laser is still in motion (I say it's a bit of both)
On top of this, Cap has much better demonstrations of speed in H2H combat in general, especially compared to someone with limited showings like Gamora. Quickly handling a couple of prison inmates is not bad and definitely makes Gamora look skilled in H2H but really this is nothing compared to Cap in a similar situation.
I feel like Cap used her Raw strength while gamora used her quickness and Skill to disarm and knock them out (BTW I used it as a speed feat LOL)
This is just about the only comparable skill showing you have for Gamora in dealing with someone of a similar physical caliber, and while it's alright, it's really just one move and doesn't do much for the comparison. Being injured after the explosion doesn't say anything about her skill relative to Nebula because Nebula was just in the exact same blast and thus at the same disadvantage. And let's not forget, Gamora actually lost this fight, which was really emotionally charged and off-kilter to begin with.
Let's get one thing straight Nebula can cybernetic repair herself while gamora cannot and both was actually holding back the fight so the was full of context
This shows that Gamora is leagues above Nebula in fighting ability (Gamora was holding back and was trying to get Ronan's doors open while Nebula was trying to kill Gamora)
Based on actual showings I think it's pretty clear that Gamora hasn't demonstrated the same capacity for fast-paced close combat that Cap has.
If Zoe salanda didn't do her own stunts then Gamora fights would probably look fast pace as well...
As I mentioned, agility is one area where I can concede Gamora's advantage, so the issue is really how useful this is. I think just based on Gamora's own showings it allows her to use flashy acrobatics in a fight, for instance jump kicks and the like, but the fight should still be fairly grounded considering the relatively open arena, similar to Cap's fight against Batroc, where I think he has already proven that he's capable of dealing with a more acrobatic opponent. His actual martial arts skill combined with his shield should mostly mitigate this issue.
Once again Gamora is capable of jumping far greater lengths and also being much more skilled and Physical superior then Batroc...
Gamora still seems superior in stats and has comparable skill,probably has a weapon that could one shot steve and also having a superior skill set
Alright, all in all there isn't too much to respond to here, but I'll mostly be standing by my original arguments to close things off.
Once again if the fight goes to a fist fight I actually think Cap would overwhelm her a bit...
I agree that Cap would overwhelm her in a fistfight. Even moreso if Cap is able to hang onto his shield while Gamora loses her swords, which is a strategy for Cap that I've tried to emphasize. You yourself posted a clip of Gamora's first fight with Nebula which illustrates what I'm talking about.
By targeting Gamora's arms or the base of her sword it should be possible for Cap to manuever Gamora's weapon away from her, given his superior combat skill (a point I've also been arguing/establishing).
...but I believe Gamora would be smart enough to utilized her superior agility combined with her Knife (Which I don't think she would use if she starts with her god slayer) Which she did against The clone of Thanos,he expected her to fight with her single sword but shocking him when she finished him of with her Dagger
This isn't to suggest she isn't capable of it, but to my knowledge we've only really seen Gamora make use of her agility in combat in H2H situations while remaining relatively grounded using her weapons. I think it's hard to gauge exactly how effective she would be at utilizing her sword in conjunction with aerial attacks, but regardless, I see no real reason why Cap couldn't defend from overhead strikes-
like he has done against Iron Man or Black Panther for example.
05.22-05.24 : Gamora and Neblua was launched into an Solid wall of space rocks at very high speeds she capable of tanking multiple blows form Captain America (BTW I posted the feat to showcase how strong her Skelton is)
I do think Gamora can take multiple hits from Cap, most likely with the shield, just not to any degree that it stops Cap from beating her. I mean I feel that I have well established Cap's striking and his strikes have already been shown to be highly effective against the likes of Spider-Man whose durability should be more than comparable to Gamora's.
First off you're right of them being in the outskirts of the explosion but if you look closer at the Gif that's where the Explosion sparks (Circled in White),So basically a close range explosion (Count how many times I said explosion LOL) BTW impressive durability feats for Cap
Thanks! And I do think this is a good feat for Gamora, but it did need that bit of clarification. She was close enough that the blast would be quite a hit to take, but the explosion came from inside the ship, at least from the cockpit that Gamora pulled Nebula out of if not deeper in the ship. I established this comparison because I think it is pretty comparable to my examples of Cap being blasted away from the epicenter of an explosion, not taking the explosion head-on but instead the impact of being knocked away.
Lastly I want to say that I underestimated Cap durability but I still stand by my point that's she's more durable IMO
Cap's has a much wider spread of durability showings including some that I've shown that I believe easily rival Gamora's best, not to mention that he can be scaled to stronger characters than Gamora. I think Cap is more durable personally, but honestly that's a secondary issue here. I do concede (and I don't really think anyone could argue) that sword strikes could be lethal, but in terms of blunt force Cap's striking is superior. So even if they can be roughly equated in durability, or even if you give Gamora a slight edge, Cap still has an overall physical advantage in a H2H fight because her inferior blows will not put down Cap as quickly as the reverse. My take on this fight is that Cap will be able to disarm Gamora using his shield, and if it boils down this way then Cap's advantage is even stronger because he can block attacks that way and dish out even more damage with the edge of his shield.
If you look closer at the Gif you'll see that her body moves while the laser is still in motion (I say it's a bit of both)
I guess we can agree to disagree on this feat, but she clearly has her eyes on the gun pointed at her before it is fired, so I think it's more reasonable to say that she was getting out of the way of the shot he had lined up rather than dodging the projectile only after it was fired at her.
I feel like Cap used his Raw strength while gamora used her quickness and Skill to disarm and knock them out (BTW I used it as a speed feat LOL)
Strongly disagree here. While I do think Cap's physical superiority to the SHIELD agents in the elevator was part of the reason he was able to outfight them, he clearly utilized his technique to rapidly clear them out. You can see him kick one agent in the knee, for example, to break his stance, and rapidly follow this up with a throat strike to another agent on the other side of him. A clear demonstration of rapid execution of H2H techniques against multiple opponents. He didn't just sweep them out of the way.
More importantly, we have no idea how strong any of the people Gamora fought in the prison are, so there is no basis for claiming that Gamora didn't have a physical advantage over them, same as Cap.
Let's get one thing straight Nebula can cybernetic repair herself while gamora cannot and both was actually holding back the fight so the was full of context
Fair enough, Gamora may have been more physically impacted by the blast in their GotG 2 fight because of Nebula's ability to repair. I never meant to suggest Gamora is not more skilled than Nebula; IMO that is established very well in-universe, considering the whole reason for Nebula's mechanical parts were Thanos's punishment for her many failures in fights against Gamora. But my point was, I wouldn't cite that fight as being a very impressive skill showing for Gamora considering Nebula got the upper hand on her.
This shows that Gamora is leagues above Nebula in fighting ability (Gamora was holding back and was trying to get Ronan's doors open while Nebula was trying to kill Gamora)
I do think Gamora is well above Nebula in skill based on canon statements but this fight isn't really that great of a demonstration of it either if we're being honest. Not only did Nebula get the upper hand on Gamora to the point where she disarmed her, but Gamora only narrowly won this encounter by knocking Nebula out of the ring. So I hardly think it is a demonstration of Gamora's overwhelming skill advantage over Nebula. If anything I think it is pretty clear that by the first GotG Nebula has managed to close the gap substantially between herself and her sister. The cybernetic enhancements probably help that.
Regardless, Nebula doesn't really have any skill accolades aside from being inferior to Gamora. So Gamora being more skilled than Nebula doesn't really give us much room for comparison to Cap.
If Zoe salanda didn't do her own stunts then Gamora fights would probably look fast pace as well...
I don't mean to make an argument purely based on choreography, I strongly agree with you that this is not good reasoning. My point is just that Cap has demonstrations of having close H2H bouts with people of comparable physicals to bolster his skill showings.
Once again Gamora is capable of jumping far greater lengths and also being much more skilled and Physical superior then Batroc...
Absolutely- Gamora is definitely more agile than Batroc. However, being agile by necessity kind of has to plateau in usefulness when you're talking about a close quarters fight. The fight will still need to be centered around Cap who will mostly be grounded. And the Batroc example is a good demonstration of how he is capable of managing an opponent for whom agility is incorporated into their fighting style.
My strategy ultimately hasn't changed that much.
Gamora's only real chance of getting the upper hand on Cap is by making lethal strikes with her blades. And I feel that my arguments have proven Cap to be a superior close-quarters fighter that can make use of his shield to mitigate this threat. Disarming opponents is a strategy he has immediately gone for against opponents with lethal weapons in the past, as I've demonstrated, so things should be no different here. Cap will block sword strikes when Gamora gets close, disarm her with his shield and superior close-quarters fighting skill, and then proceed to dispatch her using his superior striking power and his powerful shield once the threat of her weapons has been taken care of.
Cap has a lot of advantages here, and I believe he should be more than capable of dealing with Gamora's particular strengths.
@psy-scarlet: Okay, so that's my closing counter then. Tag me when your closing arguments are up and I'll open things up for votes, yeah?
This was fun! I was glad to get the chance to try my hand at debating with Cap. Nice debate so far!
I agree that Cap would overwhelm her in a fistfight. Even moreso if Cap is able to hang onto his shield while Gamora loses her swords, which is a strategy for Cap that I've tried to emphasize. You yourself posted a clip of Gamora's first fight with Nebula which illustrates what I'm talking about.
By targeting Gamora's arms or the base of her sword it should be possible for Cap to manuever Gamora's weapon away from her, given his superior combat skill (a point I've also been arguing/establishing).
I think Nebula staff and it's Electric capabilities was part of Gamora losing her sword (The same way Black Widow was capable of disarming Proxima midnight by using her Electric Batons on her shoulder) BTW Gamora is not that far behind Cap on skill and Cap does not have Electric capabilities in this fight
isn't to suggest she isn't capable of it, but to my knowledge we've only really seen Gamora make use of her agility in combat in H2H situations while remaining relatively grounded using her weapons. I think it's hard to gauge exactly how effective she would be at utilizing her sword in conjunction with aerial attacks, but regardless, I see no real reason why Cap couldn't defend from overhead strikes-
The thing is If gamora lands one single blow on Cap it will definitely weakened him effecting his fighting abilities which she would by you're argument you even say Gamora is not so far behind Cap
thanks! And I do think this is a good feat for Gamora, but it did need that bit of clarification. She was close enough that the blast would be quite a hit to take, but the explosion came from inside the ship, at least from the cockpit that Gamora pulled Nebula out of if not deeper in the ship. I established this comparison because I think it is pretty comparable to my examples of Cap being blasted away from the epicenter of an explosion, not taking the explosion head-on but instead the impact of being knocked away.I
I still think Gamora is a little more durable like she has feats like blocking Ronan attacks form his universal weapon (Which carried a infinity stone) and has tanked plane crashes casually
Cap's has a much wider spread of durability showings including some that I've shown that I believe easily rival Gamora's best, not to mention that he can be scaled to stronger characters than Gamora. I think Cap is more durable personally, but honestly that's a secondary issue here. I do concede (and I don't really think anyone could argue) that sword strikes could be lethal, but in terms of blunt force Cap's striking is superior. So even if they can be roughly equated in durability, or even if you give Gamora a slight edge, Cap still has an overall physical advantage in a H2H fight because her inferior blows will not put down Cap as quickly as the reverse. My take on this fight is that Cap will be able to disarm Gamora using his shield, and if it boils down this way then Cap's advantage is even stronger because he can block attacks that way and dish out even more damage with the edge of his shield.
Like I said Cap definitely has more durability feats but Gamora has been more durable on a consistent level
Strongly disagree here. While I do think Cap's physical superiority to the SHIELD agents in the elevator was part of the reason he was able to outfight them, he clearly utilized his technique to rapidly clear them out. You can see him kick one agent in the knee, for example, to break his stance, and rapidly follow this up with a throat strike to another agent on the other side of him. A clear demonstration of rapid execution of H2H techniques against multiple opponents. He didn't just sweep them out of the way.
More importantly, we have no idea how strong any of the people Gamora fought in the prison are, so there is no basis for claiming that Gamora didn't have a physical advantage over them, same as Cap
We can clearly see that Gamora used his physicals to break out of their hold while using a tiny bit of skill
I can surely say that they are definitely more durable then Normal males like tanking blows form Groot and Drax
Regardless, Nebula doesn't really have any skill accolades aside from being inferior to Gamora. So Gamora being more skilled than Nebula doesn't really give us much room for comparison to Cap.
Nebula unskilled while she's capable of holding her own against Thanos and even came close to killing him (Statement LoL)
I don't mean to make an argument purely based on choreography, I strongly agree with you that this is not good reasoning. My point is just that Cap has demonstrations of having close H2H bouts with people of comparable physicals to bolster his skill showings.
Of course Cap has fought more people that's was actually skilled because Cap has like 9 movies while Gamora has like 3
BTW I know I am not going to win this debate because of Cap's fan boys but anyway great ? CAV
Still stand by my point Gamora has better Durability and strength with comparable skill and speed while also having a weapon that could one shot him basically
@psy-scarlet: I'll open for votes then!
BTW I know I am not going to win this debate because of Cap's fan boys but anyway great ? CAV
Well voters are asked to explain themselves. So hopefully we can weed out biased votes if you think that's a concern.
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