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#1 Edited by maestromage (645 posts) - - Show Bio

MCU Black Widow

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Represented by @bpg

VS

CW Arrow

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Represent by moi

Rules

  • Standard Gear
  • Random Encounter
  • Morals on
  • Battle takes place in a dimly lit warehouse
  • Win by Death, KO or Incapacitation

CAV Rules

  • This is a CAV so don't comment on who you think wins the fight or anything like that
  • At the end of the debate, vote for who you think made the better arguments, not which character you think wins
  • Give reasons for why you think they debated better
  • If you want to be tagged when the debate is over, just say "Tag for votes" (or T4V).
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#2 Posted by blackpantherisb (6357 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#3 Posted by maestromage (645 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for voters

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#4 Posted by _KingofLatveria (17931 posts) - - Show Bio

tag

Online
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#5 Posted by Subline (4411 posts) - - Show Bio

tag

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#6 Posted by DiarrheaRegatta (3049 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting.

Tag for initial posts and for voting.

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#7 Edited by DeutschKurzhaar (894 posts) - - Show Bio

Im intrigued, T4V

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#8 Posted by ArthurCurry89 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#9 Edited by BPG (502 posts) - - Show Bio

Natasha Romanoff aka Black Widow

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History :

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Strength/Striking :

Strength/Striking :

I think Natasha has a slight edge in strength and Striking at least

Here Natasha oneshots on of Crossbones mercenaries by kicking his head against the ceiling

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Natasha causally sends people flying with punches and kicks (Even Corvus Glaive someone that can over power Captain America easily)

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Natasha put up a strong defense against Proxima midnight (Someone that could survive high falls and can shatter concrete easily)

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Durability :

Natasha way more durable that Oliver unless you got some pretty amazing durability feats

Here Natasha tanks a pretty high fall

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Natasha tanks this...

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Natasha tanks a hit form the Hulk

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I don't see Oliver surviving one of these feats

Speed/Agility :

I like to believe Natasha faster then oliver at least featwise

Here Natasha dances around lasers to get out of the building, second one, she's outpacing automatic machine gunfire from multiple angles.

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Natasha could deflect a arrow fired form Hawkeye (Someone that could fire 3 Arrows in 1.9 Seconds)

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After Falcon's Redwing shot down the first mercenary, Natasha shot the other one and grabbed the biological weapon from more than 6 ft. away, all in the time it took for it to fall on ground level.

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Natasha could react to a grenade luncher twice

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Fighting skills :

I think Natasha has the edge in skill just because of her fights with super humans

Natasha held her own against Proxima midnight (With a little help form Okoye)

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Natasha took down Hawkeye while being at a health disvantage

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Natasha took down 2 Russian Mercenaries while being bound to a chair

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Here, she takes down 3 of Klaue's mercenaries in 5 seconds whlie unarmed showcasing great strength and crowd control.

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And here, Natasha takes down 5 armed mercenaries ambushing her.

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Standard gear :Dual pistols/Smoke bombs/Electric batons/Widow's Bite/Knives

Marksmanship :

I believe Natasha could end the fight in a couple of seconds with her Pistols

Natasha is fast enough on the draw to get her hand under the table, pick up the gun, load and aim to shoot, all in a matter of a single second

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Here, she headshots an Iron Man suit while moving her head around

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Let me know if you want more feats...

Advantages :

Strength/Striking- Natasha

Durability- Natasha

Speed - Natasha

Fighting Skills - Natasha

Gameplan :

I believe Natasha could perform her acrobatic move on Oliver like she did with winter solider in civil war(Choking him with her legs while repeatedly hitting him with her elbows on the head) I don't think Oliver would survive that or she could one shot him with her Widow's bite,Pistols or Electric batons

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#10 Posted by Amendment50 (14736 posts) - - Show Bio

the hell is that tron-ass black widow picture lol

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#12 Posted by Lan_Fan (11676 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#13 Posted by BPG (502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by maestromage (645 posts) - - Show Bio

@bpg: I should have my post up sometime this week. If I'm lucky it'll be done tonight, but I have a lot of gifs I need to gather so we'll see if that happens.

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#15 Posted by JacenSolo77 (189 posts) - - Show Bio

Good opener, interested to see where this one goes.

T4V and after every post.

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#16 Posted by CRUSHYOURENEMIES (2434 posts) - - Show Bio

should be locked.

only another god emperor can defeat green arrow.

@juiceboks

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#17 Posted by juiceboks (24407 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
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#18 Posted by Subline (4411 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice post, will refrain from commenting more until the votes.

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#19 Edited by maestromage (645 posts) - - Show Bio

CW Arrow "The Vigilante"

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Bio:

After spending 5 years in hell, he returned home with only one goal;

To save his city

/thread

Strength:

I think Natasha has a slight edge in strength and Striking at least

Though the feats you posted for Natasha are no doubt impressive, they are not enough for her to have the advantage in this category (I'll be honest, I think Ollie has at least a slight edge in all categories, but that's what this debate is for):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

Scan 1: Ollie kicks Slade (with all his equipment) sending him reeling and breaking a window. What's more impressive about this is that Ollie was putting the hurt on Slade despite Slade's bulletproof armour (Arrow 2x23)

Scan 2: Ollie punches Anarky so hard they break through the wooden floor they were one (Arrow 5x1)

Scan 3: Ollie impressively throws Anarky off of him and into a pillar. Widow lacks raw strength feats like this to be considered as strong as Ollie (Arrow 5x1)

Scan 4: Ollie casually tosses Rene into a pillar fairly hard (Arrow 5x1)

Scan 5: Ollie kicks Rene really hard into a tree, putting him down for good. This actually reopened one of Rene's old wounds and left him hospitalised despite his impressive armour (Arrow 6x14)

Natasha put up a strong defense against Proxima midnight (Someone that could survive high falls and can shatter concrete easily)

In terms of strength, all Natasha did against Proxima is deflect some of her punches and holding back her blade for < 1 second. Ollie himself has better showings against people with similar strength to Proxima

Scan 6: Ollie straight up stops a punch from a bloodlusted (Mirakuru) Roy with one hand. Far better than what Natasha did (Arrow 2x12)

Scan 7: Example of Mirakuru Roy's striking

Overall, the feats I've shown are at least comparable if not superior to what you've shown for Natasha, and I haven't even used my best feats yet. Ollie comfortably has the advantage in this category.

Durability:

Natasha definitely isn't more durable than Ollie, it's the other way around (and yes Ollie could replicate all the durability feats you showed).

The first two feats aren't actually that impressive, to be honest.

No Caption Provided

We see at the end of the gid that the Chitauri speeder wasn't very high above the building. It looks like a two storey drop at best. Even with her initial speed, she wouldn't have experienced that much force.

The second feat is similar, she gets launched from hulk at a decent speed and rolls to a halt. It's not a bad feat but I don't see why it so amazing.

The third feat is the only really good feat. Even then it's... problematic. We can't really say that Black Widow can tank a serious attack from the Hulk because she obviously can't. This makes it hard to judge how much of his strength he was using. However, she was still sent flying a good distance so it's still a decent feat.

Regardless, Ollie does not need to be more durable than black widow to win this (though he is); he only needs to be durable enough to tank her attacks, and he easily is:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Scan 1: Ollie tanks numerous punches from a bloodlusted flash. At this point, Barry could do this:

Flash 1x8
Flash 1x8

This is already as good/better than Natasha's striking feats and Ollie tanked dozens of attacks these attacks.

Scan 2: Ollie tanks a punch from Cyrus Gold which hits him so hard the door behind Ollie comes off it's hinges and goes skidding. Again, way better than what Natasha can dish out physically, and Ollie tanked it (Arrow 2x8)

Scan 3: Ollie tanks the edge of an explosion, a two storey drop and lands on a car with enough force to break the windshield (Arrow 3x7)

Ollie has the durability to tank all of Natasha's attacks and keep fighting.

He should also be able to tank her Widow Bites (At least no get one shot by them). Natasha herself tanked one without being KO'd in Winter Soldier, and Ollie has tanked much more powerful electrical attacks:

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Here Ollie tanks an electric attack that destroys metal (the arrowhead) from a guy with enough energy to power a small city. Should he get hit by her Widow bites, he won't be KO'd.

Speed:

I would also disagree with Widow being faster than Ollie, though I think this category is the most debatable:

Your best feat for Natasha was probably the arrow timing feat. However, Ollie has better:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Scan 1: Ollie runs from off screen to intercept a crossbow bolt after it was fired. An average crossbow bolt fires at around 300 FPS (feet per second), but given that this was a "high-powered" crossbow, it could be even higher (Arrow 1x17)

Scan 2: Ollie dodges an arrow fired at the back of his head (this is also a perception feat). The main reason this is more impressive than Natasha's is that he wasn't in combat before the Arrow was fired. He had to react to the fact that he was being attacked by an unknown assailant from behind. And yet there was zero hesitation from him moving out of the way. Natasha will be hard pressed to get the drop on him in any manner (I'll get into this more later). (Arrow 3x9)

Scan 3 and 4: Number 3 shows that Ollie is fast enough to fight evenly with Ra's, which is impressive because Ra's has some pretty crazy speed feats. No. 4 is one such feat, where he seemingly teleports across a room with raw speed. Ollie should have the speed advantage in H2H given his ability to hang with faster people than Natasha.

Natasha could react to a grenade luncher twice

Though impressive, Ollie (again) has a similar feat, but better:

Arrow 2x4
Arrow 2x4

Not only does he react to the grenade launcher, but he also is fast enough to shoot it out of the air, AND he does it from a notably shorter distance than Natasha did (the projectile only got halfway to him).

Overall, I think Ollie is faster than Natasha, but admittedly not by a huge amount.

Skill:

This is one area where I'm confident Ollie is better than Natasha. Ollie has proven himself to be the more skilled combatant, which I will now show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gpu1J6C0CY

(Watch from 0:38)

This feat from season from season 1 is already as good (or better) as most of the feats you showed. He takes down 16 guys, only using arrows for 4 of them, and does it all in a tight hallway (there are also some good strength feats in there as well).

However, this is only Ollie from season 1.

In season 2 when Sara showed up, she generally portrayed as </= Ollie in terms of skill. One example of this is their fights against Al-Owal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0izJiNY_kg&t=258s

Ollie vs Al-Owal is at 4:18, and Sara vs Al-Owal is directly after. Though Sara uses a trap and though she does lose, at first she was holding her own against him, and actually landed the first blow. My point here is simply that Season 2 Sara is comparable to the Ollie who performed the hallway feat.

Now, let's we can compare Sara to the League of Assassin (LoA) ninjas in the Arrowverse. In season 2, Sara was beaten by two LoA ninjas. This is probably their best feat, so for consistency's sake, I'll say 2 LoA ninjas </= Sara.

(0:47) Here we see Nyssa Al Ghul defeats 5 LoA ninjas in a small area. So we can comfortably say that Nyssa > Sara in skill. Now stay with me, we'll get back to Ollie soon lol.

Let's compare Nyssa to Malcolm Merlyn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oe-WdwSE78

(Watch from the beginning) It's worth noting that Nyssa was trying to kill Merlyn, whilst Merlyn wasn't going all out. Yet he still wins and even manages to seemingly disarm her without her noticing.

We can see another time when they had a brief scuffle in the tie-in comics:

No Caption Provided

Nyssa is quite clearly displayed as Merlyn's inferior in H2H combat. So now it's time to bring it back around to Ollie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBuATP3xlu0&t=117s

(Watch from 1:57) Here Ollie and Merlyn fight again in season 4 aaaand Ollie stomps him lol. You can make the argument that Ollie used a sword here and he doesn't have a sword in this fight, which is true. However, there are two issues with this. For one, all the hits Ollie landed on Merlyn were with his bare hands, not his sword. The second is that (at least post season 3) there isn't much difference in Ollie's skill when he's using weapons or not. One such example is when Ollie fights Ra's in the plane (seen in the Nyssa vs LoA ninja video above) he doesn't do much worse than he did in the season 3 finale, and you could probably chalk up the difference to the fact that Ra's had a weapon advantage. Another thing is that Ollie uses his bow as a melee weapon and though it doesn't translate directly to a sword, it's still comparable. My point is basically that Ollie isn't more skilled with a sword than he is with his bow or H2H so the fact that he used a sword here doesn't really matter.

So overall, we can conclude that:

Current Ollie > Merlyn > Nyssa > 4 LoA ninjas > Sara/Season 1 Ollie

Now, this scaling isn't perfect due to several inconsistencies in Arrow, but it mostly holds up. At the very least, the Season 4+ Ollie > Merlyn > Nyssa is consistent, and from what you've shown me, Widow is at best Nyssa level skill wise.

Now, to deal with a few things you said:

Natasha took down Hawkeye while being at a health disvantage

Hawkeye is borderline featlessskillwise. Most of his skill comes from his showings against Natasha, which doesn't help you here lol.

Natasha held her own against Proxima midnight (With a little help form Okoye)

What skill feats does Proxima have that makes that impressive? Contending with someone who's stronger is only a skill feat if they're skilled, otherwise, it's just a strength feat (and I've already shown that Ollie has better).

Archery:

This will be a quick section, I want to Highlight a few feats of Ollie's and show how his arrows could cause problems for Natasha (though I expect the fight would go into H2H quickly).

Natasha is fast enough on the draw to get her hand under the table, pick up the gun, load and aim to shoot, all in a matter of a single second

Are her pistols even standard gear anymore? She didn't use them at all in infinity war IIRC. Regardless, Ollie has much better feats (also I think the gun was already loaded in that gif. Why would she leave the gun underneath the table unloaded?)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Scan 1: Showing of Ollie's firing speed. He fired 2 arrows in the time it takes an arrow to travel a few metres at best. This far outdoes Natasha's fire speed.

Scan 2: Another instance of not only firing speed but his skill as an archer. He fires arrows fast enough and aims them well enough that Vandal Savage (a bullet timer) is hit by one. (Arrow 4x8)

Scan 3: Ollie can use his trick arrows mid-combat. If Natasha tries to catch them or anything like that, he can do what he did to Merlyn here and use a (low level) explosive arrow on her (Arrow 1x23)

Scan 4: Ollie makes a shot from partway across an island (Arrow 1x1)

Overall Olle has the skill, precision and firing speed to tag Natasha with his arrows though like I said earlier, I think both of these characters will simply take a few shots at each other and then move into melee combat.

Conclusion

  • Ollie is stronger and hits harder than Widow does. She will eventually go down to his hits
  • Ollie is too durable for Widow to put him down with her hits in a reasonable amount of time
  • Ollie is at least as fast if not faster, and is significantly more skilled than Natasha is
  • Meaning she won't be hitting him that much, and given his durability she can't put him down (he can tank her widow bites if she uses them on him)
  • Not sure if Widow even uses a gun anymore, but even if she does Ollie's suit his kevlar and (due to his durability) nothing less than a headshot would put him down.

Overall, Ollie has the advantage in basically all categories and he will put her down long before she puts him down.

Your move @bpg

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#20 Posted by maestromage (645 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by BPG (502 posts) - - Show Bio
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Rebuttals:

Strength:

I think Natasha has a slight edge in strength and Striking at least

Though the feats you posted for Natasha are no doubt impressive, they are not enough for her to have the advantage in this category (I'll be honest, I think Ollie has at least a slight edge in all categories, but that's what this debate is for):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

Scan 1: Ollie kicks Slade (with all his equipment) sending him reeling and breaking a window. What's more impressive about this is that Ollie was putting the hurt on Slade despite Slade's bulletproof armour (Arrow 2x23)

Scan 2: Ollie punches Anarky so hard they break through the wooden floor they were one (Arrow 5x1)

Scan 3: Ollie impressively throws Anarky off of him and into a pillar. Widow lacks raw strength feats like this to be considered as strong as Ollie (Arrow 5x1)

Scan 4: Ollie casually tosses Rene into a pillar fairly hard (Arrow 5x1)

Scan 5: Ollie kicks Rene really hard into a tree, putting him down for good. This actually reopened one of Rene's old wounds and left him hospitalised despite his impressive armour (Arrow 6x14)

Nice feats...But do you consider Corvus glaives durability because she send him flying with a single kick (And sorry but not any one of these feats compare to that) and for the Raw Strength (Natasha could grap onto a high speeding Chitauri jet with one arm and cuts through a chain with zero effort/Chitauri metal was considered more durable that normal metal

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Natasha put up a strong defense against Proxima midnight (Someone that could survive high falls and can shatter concrete easily)

In terms of strength, all Natasha did against Proxima is deflect some of her punches and holding back her blade for < 1 second. Ollie himself has better showings against people with similar strength to Proxima

I don't think you can compare Midnight against Roy just because she overpowered Captain America rather easily (Steve's already leagues above Roy)

Scan 6: Ollie straight up stops a punch from a bloodlusted (Mirakuru) Roy with one hand. Far better than what Natasha did (Arrow 2x12)

Scan 7: Example of Mirakuru Roy's striking

Overall, the feats I've shown are at least comparable if not superior to what you've shown for Natasha, and I haven't even used my best feats yet. Ollie comfortably has the advantage in this category.

Overall I think this category is lot closer now but still leaning towards Widow

Durability:

Natasha definitely isn't more durable than Ollie, it's the other way around (and yes Ollie could replicate all the durability feats you showed).

The first two feats aren't actually that impressive, to be honest.

No Caption Provided

We see at the end of the gid that the Chitauri speeder wasn't very high above the building. It looks like a two storey drop at best. Even with her initial speed, she wouldn't have experienced that much force.

The second feat is similar, she gets launched from hulk at a decent speed and rolls to a halt. It's not a bad feat but I don't see why it so amazing.

Its amazing because you can see the destruction on the ground when Hulk lands just imagine what force she was send on the ground form

The third feat is the only really good feat. Even then it's... problematic. We can't really say that Black Widow can tank a serious attack from the Hulk because she obviously can't. This makes it hard to judge how much of his strength he was using. However, she was still sent flying a good distance so it's still a decent feat.

Regardless, Ollie does not need to be more durable than black widow to win this (though he is); he only needs to be durable enough to tank her attacks, and he easily is:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Scan 1: Ollie tanks numerous punches from a bloodlusted flash. At this point, Barry could do this:

Flash 1x8
Flash 1x8

This is already as good/better than Natasha's striking feats and Ollie tanked dozens of attacks these attacks.

Scan 2: Ollie tanks a punch from Cyrus Gold which hits him so hard the door behind Ollie comes off it's hinges and goes skidding. Again, way better than what Natasha can dish out physically, and Ollie tanked it (Arrow 2x8)

Scan 3: Ollie tanks the edge of an explosion, a two storey drop and lands on a car with enough force to break the windshield (Arrow 3x7)

Ollie has the durability to tank all of Natasha's attacks and keep fighting.

He should also be able to tank her Widow Bites (At least no get one shot by them). Natasha herself tanked one without being KO'd in Winter Soldier, and Ollie has tanked much more powerful electrical attacks:

No Caption Provided

Here Ollie tanks an electric attack that destroys metal (the arrowhead) from a guy with enough energy to power a small city. Should he get hit by her Widow bites, he won't be KO'd.

Natasha can at least stun oliver momentarily to land a killing blow with her gun or something (Like she did with black Panther and I don't think oliver is as durable as panther)

Like I said Natasha doesn't need to fight oliver head on because she can do that acrobatic move on him like she did with winter solider in civil war (Choking him with her legs and hitting on the head) after all its Natasha thing when she fights larger opponents

Speed:

I would also disagree with Widow being faster than Ollie, though I think this category is the most debatable:

Your best feat for Natasha was probably the arrow timing feat. However, Ollie has better:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Scan 1: Ollie runs from off screen to intercept a crossbow bolt after it was fired. An average crossbow bolt fires at around 300 FPS (feet per second), but given that this was a "high-powered" crossbow, it could be even higher (Arrow 1x17)

Scan 2: Ollie dodges an arrow fired at the back of his head (this is also a perception feat). The main reason this is more impressive than Natasha's is that he wasn't in combat before the Arrow was fired. He had to react to the fact that he was being attacked by an unknown assailant from behind. And yet there was zero hesitation from him moving out of the way. Natasha will be hard pressed to get the drop on him in any manner (I'll get into this more later). (Arrow 3x9)

Scan 3 and 4: Number 3 shows that Ollie is fast enough to fight evenly with Ra's, which is impressive because Ra's has some pretty crazy speed feats. No. 4 is one such feat, where he seemingly teleports across a room with raw speed. Ollie should have the speed advantage in H2H given his ability to hang with faster people than Natasha.

Natasha could react to a grenade luncher twice

Though impressive, Ollie (again) has a similar feat, but better:

Arrow 2x4
Arrow 2x4

Not only does he react to the grenade launcher, but he also is fast enough to shoot it out of the air, AND he does it from a notably shorter distance than Natasha did (the projectile only got halfway to him).

Overall, I think Ollie is faster than Natasha, but admittedly not by a huge amount.

I say form the feats you showed Oliver has better reaction speed but widow's faster in combat (She could almost match proxima midnight in turns of speed and let's forget proxima can react to Scarlet witch powers/Wanda can react to in explosion)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Skill:

This is one area where I'm confident Ollie is better than Natasha. Ollie has proven himself to be the more skilled combatant, which I will now show:

(Watch from 0:38)

This feat from season from season 1 is already as good (or better) as most of the feats you showed. He takes down 16 guys, only using arrows for 4 of them, and does it all in a tight hallway (there are also some good strength feats in there as well).

That's impressive...but widow takes down her fodder faster and more effectively

However, this is only Ollie from season 1.

In season 2 when Sara showed up, she generally portrayed as </= Ollie in terms of skill. One example of this is their fights against Al-Owal

Ollie vs Al-Owal is at 4:18, and Sara vs Al-Owal is directly after. Though Sara uses a trap and though she does lose, at first she was holding her own against him, and actually landed the first blow. My point here is simply that Season 2 Sara is comparable to the Ollie who performed the hallway feat.

Now, let's we can compare Sara to the League of Assassin (LoA) ninjas in the Arrowverse. In season 2, Sara was beaten by two LoA ninjas. This is probably their best feat, so for consistency's sake, I'll say 2 LoA ninjas </= Sara.

Natasha took down a squad of strike agents (Strike agents=LoA ninjas/Strike agents are capable of tanking punches form Captain America and even staggering him )

(0:47) Here we see Nyssa Al Ghul defeats 5 LoA ninjas in a small area. So we can comfortably say that Nyssa > Sara in skill. Now stay with me, we'll get back to Ollie soon lol.

Let's compare Nyssa to Malcolm Merlyn:

(Watch from the beginning) It's worth noting that Nyssa was trying to kill Merlyn, whilst Merlyn wasn't going all out. Yet he still wins and even manages to seemingly disarm her without her noticing.

We can see another time when they had a brief scuffle in the tie in comics:

No Caption Provided

Nyssa is quite clearly displayed as Merlyn's inferior in H2H combat. So now it's time to bring it back around to Ollie.

(Watch from 1:57) Here Ollie and Merlyn fight again in season 4 aaaand Ollie stomps him lol. You can make the argument that Ollie used a sword here and he doesn't have a sword in this fight, which is true. However, there are two issues with this. For one, all the hits Ollie landed on Merlyn were with his bare hands, not his sword. The second is that (at least post season 3) there isn't much difference in Ollie's skill when he's using weapons or not. One such example is when Ollie fights Ra's in the plane (seen in the Nyssa vs LoA ninja video above) he doesn't do much worse than he did in the season 3 finale, and you could probably chalk up the difference to the fact that Ra's had a weapon advantage. Another thing is that Ollie uses his bow as a melee weapon and though it doesn't translate directly to a sword, it's still comparable. My point is basically that Ollie isn't more skilled with a sword than he is with his bow or H2H so the fact that he used a sword here doesn't really matter.

So overall, we can conclude that:

Current Ollie > Merlyn > Nyssa > 4 LoA ninjas > Sara/Season 1 Ollie

Now, this scaling isn't perfect due to several inconsistencies in Arrow, but it mostly holds up. At the very least, the Season 4+ Ollie > Merlyn > Nyssa is consistent, and from what you've shown me, Widow is at best Nyssa level skill wise.

Yeah but scaling has its bad things as well like thea stalemating Malcolm and Thea gets her ass handed to her by fodder

Now, to deal with a few things you said:

Natasha took down Hawkeye while being at a health disvantage

Hawkeye is borderline featlessskillwise. Most of his skill comes from his showings against Natasha, which doesn't help you here lol.

Clint was able to hold his own against Black panther (Clint in my opinion >>>>Season 2 Sara and Malcolm

Natasha held her own against Proxima midnight (With a little help form Okoye)

What skill feats does Proxima have that makes that impressive? Contending with someone who's stronger is only a skill feat if they're skilled, otherwise, it's just a strength feat (and I've already shown that Ollie has better).

Proxima midnight was able to keep up with two Master combatants (Captain America and Black widow) and didn't get out skilled in any way

Archery:

This will be a quick section, I want to Highlight a few feats of Ollie's and show how his arrows could cause problems for Natasha (though I expect the fight would go into H2H quickly).

Natasha is fast enough on the draw to get her hand under the table, pick up the gun, load and aim to shoot, all in a matter of a single second

Are her pistols even standard gear anymore? She didn't use them at all in infinity war IIRC. Regardless, Ollie has much better feats (also I think the gun was already loaded in that gif. Why would she leave the gun underneath the table unloaded?)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Scan 1: Showing of Ollie's firing speed. He fired 2 arrows in the time it takes an arrow to travel a few metres at best. This far outdoes Natasha's fire speed.

Scan 2: Another instance of not only firing speed but his skill as an archer. He fires arrows fast enough and aims them well enough that Vandal Savage (a bullet timer) is hit by one. (Arrow 4x8)

Scan 3: Ollie can use his trick arrows mid-combat. If Natasha tries to catch them or anything like that, he can do what he did to Merlyn here and use a (low level) explosive arrow on her (Arrow 1x23)

Scan 4: Ollie makes a shot from partway across an island (Arrow 1x1)

Overall Olle has the skill, precision and firing speed to tag Natasha with his arrows though like I said earlier, I think both of these characters will simply take a few shots at each other and then move into melee combat.

I don't think Oliver can tag Natasha because she already reacted to Hawkeye arrows (Clint =Oliver) and Natasha still has her pistols in standard gear (She didn't have them in infinity war just because they were in hiding that's why)

Advantages :

Strength/Striking : I feel Oliver has better Raw strength but Natasha has better striking

Speed/Agility : I feel Natasha is faster in combat but Oliver has better reactions

Durability : Leaning towards Widow

Skill : Leaning towards Widow

Like I said they almost equal stats (In some oliver and in Natasha) but she just have better skill and tactics

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#22 Posted by BPG (502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Subline (4411 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by BPG (502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Subline (4411 posts) - - Show Bio

@bpg: Your welcome, just as an example, this is what quoted text looks like:

CW Arrow has many strength feats.

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#27 Edited by maestromage (645 posts) - - Show Bio

CW Arrow, The Hood Returns

No Caption Provided

Counters I - Physicals:

Nice feats...But do you consider Corvus glaives durability because she send him flying with a single kick (And sorry but not any one of these feats compare to that)

Here's the thing; though Natasha sent him flying, she didn't actually do any damage to Corvus (not with her kick), so his durability is irrelevant. The only damage she did was stabbing him with Proxima's spear thingy. Even if she did damage him it would be a massive outlier given that Corvus took bullrushes from Vision and Cap punching him with vibranium bladed weapons without going down. The feat is basically her sending a maybe 200-pound guy flying.

and for the Raw Strength (Natasha could grap onto a high speeding Chitauri jet with one arm and cuts through a chain with zero effort/Chitauri metal was considered more durable that normal metal

Impressive feats. Nothing that blows Ollie's out of the water, however. Furthermore, raw strength is significantly less important than striking strength in a melee confrontation, and Ollie definitely has the edge in striking.

I don't think you can compare Midnight against Roy just because she overpowered Captain America rather easily (Steve's already leagues above Roy)

She didn't overpower Cap actually, he overpowered her (though it clearly took some effort):

No Caption Provided

Also, Steve isn't leagues above Roy (not in strength). Roy's feat of smashing through concrete is clearly comparable to the striking feats of Bucky's metal arm (e.g. smashing the ground), and Bucky's metal arm has consistently been portrayed as stronger than Steve is. So yeah, Roy and Midnight are comparable in strength.

I'll show a couple more feats to hammer home my point:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Scan 1: Ollie shoves a guy into a wall (one handed) hard enough to break a lamp and one shot the guy (Arrow 5x17)

Scan 2: Ollie throws a guy so hard that the guy breaks down a metal fence (Arrow 5x18)

Scan 3: Ollie punches a hole in a car windshield

Scan 4: Ollie contends with a draws blood from Caleb Green, who is a mirakuru soldier. (for reference, mirakuru soldiers have super-soldier level physicals).

These feats are clearly comparable to what widow has done in terms of raw strength, and outright better than here striking feats. The best striking feat you've shown for Natasha is ragdolling people, whereas Ollie can actually harm people much more durable than Widow.

Again, the important thing is that Ollie definitely hits hard enough to put Widow down.

Natasha can at least stun oliver momentarily to land a killing blow with her gun or something (Like she did with black Panther and I don't think oliver is as durable as panther)

Yeah, it would stun him momentarily, though Ollie does have better feats of resisting electrical attacks, so he is actually more durable in that aspect (he's obviously not a durable as vibraniuim lol).

Like I said Natasha doesn't need to fight oliver head on because she can do that acrobatic move on him like she did with winter solider in civil war (Choking him with her legs and hitting on the head) after all its Natasha thing when she fights larger opponents

Though it's true that Natasha grapples often, she doesn't always go for it. She didn't try it against Corvus or Proxima for example. And even if she did try it, she may not be successful given the skill gap (which I will go on to reinforce later), and even if she did you haven't convinced me that she can even put him down with her strikes given his feats of tanking hits from people who hit harder than she does. I'll even show some more:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Scan 1: Ollie tanks Roy shoving him several feet, hard enough to break a table and gets up fine (Arrow 2x12)

Scan 2: Ollie tanks being shoved by Roy into a metal pillar hard enough to shake the entire thing and isn't KOd (Arrow 2x20)

Scan 3: Ollie tanks a punch from Helena. To be honest, Helena has striking feats comparable to Natasha's own:

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Helena chokes a guy with one hand and then snaps his neck by punching him in the head (Arrow 1x7)

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Helena destroys a concrete block with a kick (and Ollie tanks a hit from here again in the bottom right)

Scan 4: Ollie tanks being hit in the face with a burning piece of wood by Caleb Green (a mirakuru soldier)

There you go, even more feats of Ollie tanking attacks from people who hit as hard or harder than Natasha. How will she put him down physically if people (sometimes significantly) stronger than her have failed to do so?

Counters II - Speed

I say form the feats you showed Oliver has better reaction speed but widow's faster in combat (She could almost match proxima midnight in turns of speed and let's forget proxima can react to Scarlet witch powers/Wanda can react to in explosion)

I disagree on Natasha having faster combat speed and also with your scaling. Wanda reacting to an explosion was one of two things; A) she didn't react to the explosion itself but to Rumlow triggering it or B) she did, in fact, react to a supersonic/hypersonic explosion, in which case it's a massive outlier given that no-one else in the MCU except maybequicksilver (and probably not even him) has that level of speed.

So, Ollie should still be faster in combat due to scaling off of Ra's and his "teleportation" feat.

I also wanted to tackle the possibility of Natasha shooting Ollie, and showing why I don't think she'll be able to:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Scan 1: Ollie avoiding bullets from Deadshot despite the latter's great accuracy (Arrow 1x3)

Scan 2: Ollie throws a flechette to hit an arrow out of the air. This isn't just reaction time as we see Ollie moving his arm at a comparable speed to the arrow (Arrow 5x23)

Scan 3: Ollie avoid bullets whilst midair

Scan 4: Ollie avoiding 3 crossbow bolts midair

Scan 5: A feat of Ollie's agility. He avoids gunfire through agile movements despite one of his arms being in a cast

Scan 6: Ollie avoiding gunfire from multiple sources again

Given Ollie's incredible aim dodging capabilities, I think Natasha will struggle a lot to tag him with her shots. Also, as I said before, both fighters tend to engage in melee in a fight rather than stay in a shootout so Ollie will only have to avoid a few shots, which he definitely can do.

Counters III - Skill:

Natasha took down a squad of strike agents (Strike agents=LoA ninjas

First of all, what feats to Strike agents have that put them on the level of LoA ninjas? Secondly, even if we accept that Strike agents = LoA ninjas, the feat of Natasha taking them down (I assume you mean from the end of Winter Soldier) would still only put her at Nyssa level. And Ollie > Merlyn > Nyssa.

Strike agents are capable of tanking punches form Captain America and even staggering him

Um, what? When did this happen? Regardless that kinda just seems like a low showing for cap if he can't one shot nameless characters because he definitely should be one-shotting them - heck, Ollie can one-shot ghosts (Ghosts are highly trained elite mercenaries) all day but MCU Cap can't? lmao.

Yeah but scaling has its bad things as well like thea stalemating Malcolm and Thea gets her ass handed to her by fodder

When did Thea get her ass handed to her by fodder? Genuine question, I don't remember that happening. Regardless, if she did then that's a massive low showing given how skilled she has shown herself to be. Also, low showings affect everything, not just scaling. You have yet to debunk my skill scaling or to prove that Natasha is any higher than Nyssa level skill wise (and BTW if she's Nyssa level skill wise then Ollie probably stomps her in 12 seconds as he did to Nyssa).

Clint was able to hold his own against Black panther

IMO, Clint only held his own due to the big range advantage of his staff. People often claim that Clint > T'challa in skill due to the fact that Clint got him in a hold. The issue with this is that putting someone in a hold does not make you more skilled than them (especially if they break out immediately). If it did, then Clint is also more skilled than Natasha given that he put her in a hold when they fought in Civil War. Except in the case of both Natasha and T'challa, they got out immediately and actually landed blows on Hawkeye (Natasha would have if Wanda hadn't intervened). The two fights are effectively the same, they fight for a bit, Clint puts his opponent in a hold, they Immediately get out and beat his ass. BP > Clint in skill which makes him look very unimpressive outside of his fights with Natasha.

Clint in my opinion >>>>Season 2 Sara and Malcolm

I have two Issues with this. For one, Season 2 Sara and Malcolm are not nearly on the same tier. In fact, when they fought in the comics he stomped her:

No Caption Provided

Stomps her in 1 page and one-shots her in a business suit no less. Acting as if these two are in the same tier is inaccurate.

The second issue I have is Clint being more skilled than these two. His only usable feat in the Cav is holding his own (but losing) to Black Panther who doesn't even have the feats to be better than Merlyn. You've provided zero feats that suggest that Clint is as good as Malcolm (because he isn't), let alone better. A statement with no feats to back it up isn't an argument.

Proxima midnight was able to keep up with two Master combatants (Captain America and Black widow) and didn't get out skilled in any way

Ah I see, Natasha is skilled because she held her own against Proxima, and Proxima is skilled because she could fight Natasha (and Cap). This is just circular scaling and means nothing. You can scale her skill off of Cap, but I'm pretty sure Widow > Cap in skill so I don't think that will help you much. Proxima is skilled, yes. This isn't in question. But due to her lack of feats, you can't use her skill to elevate the skill of Natasha, because then you'd be scaling Natasha from herself.

So, Natasha is still only Nyssa level at best and as such she gets stomped in less than 30 seconds just like Nyssa did.

Counters IV - Archery

don't think Oliver can tag Natasha because she already reacted to Hawkeye arrows (Clint =Oliver)

Alas, if only saying it made it so. Clint isn't equal to Ollie in archery until you prove he is. Regardless, Ollie has better draw speed than Clint, and I've already shown some of Ollie's draw speed feats that outclass Clint's. If Ollie can tag a casual bullet timer with his skill then he can tag Natasha. In fact, here's another feat:

Arrow 5x7
Arrow 5x7

Here Ollie manages to draw and fire an arrow at Vigilante before he can pull the trigger. This is impressive because Vigilante has shot arrows out of the air.Again, if Ollie is good enough can tag casual arrow timers and bullet timers, then he can tag Natasha as she is neither.

and Natasha still has her pistols in standard gear (She didn't have them in infinity war just because they were in hiding that's why)

Ok, that's fine

Conclusion

  • From what you've shown so far, Ollie stomps. Given his draw speed (firing arrows in the time it takes an arrow to travel a few metres, tagging Vandal Savage, beating Vigilante's trigger finger etc.) he could just shoot her and she wouldn't be able to do much about it except avoid getting seriously injured.
  • Her best striking feat (so far) is ragdolling people. Ollie has tanked hits from people who hit as hard (Helena) and from people who hit harder (Flash, Various Mirakuru users, etc.) so she needs to hit him a lot of times to put him down
  • BUT she won't be able to given that she isn't as fast in combat (or reactions) and that she's only Nyssa level at best in skill, which is still two tiers below Ollie in skill. Ollie can stomp people who can beat people as skilled has Natasha. She isn't on his level at all skill wise.

I think the fight goes something like this; they fire some shots at each other and Ollie avoids Natasha's shots due to superior speed and excellent aim dodging ability and Natasha avoids Ollie's arrows barely (I'm being generous). They then close the gap and engage in melee combat. However, due to Ollies greater physicals and overwhelming skill advantage, Natasha gets put down very quickly.

No Caption Provided

GG

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#28 Edited by maestromage (645 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by Nucleon (2110 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a fast, furious (yet polite) CaV. I never saw a CW episode, so all I've got on this Green Arrow are Maestromage's post... and he is doing fine. I already know about BW.

Please TV4.

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#30 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5099 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#31 Posted by JacenSolo77 (189 posts) - - Show Bio

Good posts, Maestromage is really giving Arrow justice as well.

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#32 Edited by maestromage (645 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: Thanks :)

Also, just realised the videos I put in my first post didn't actually work oof. I'll fix that real quick.

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#33 Posted by BPG (502 posts) - - Show Bio

@maestromage: The Black Widow Returns !!!!!!!!

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Natasha Romanoff aka Black Widow

Counters I - Physicals:

Here's the thing; though Natasha sent him flying, she didn't actually do any damage to Corvus (not with her kick), so his durability is irrelevant. The only damage she did was stabbing him with Proxima's spear thingy. Even if she did damage him it would be a massive outlier given that Corvus took bullrushes from Vision and Cap punching him with vibranium bladed weapons without going down. The feat is basically her sending a maybe 200-pound guy flying.

Natasha actually damaged Corvus because he could still stand after she stabbed him (She basically knocked him down) and I don't considered it an outlier

Impressive feats. Nothing that blows Ollie's out of the water, however. Furthermore, raw strength is significantly less important than striking strength in a melee confrontation, and Ollie definitely has the edge in striking.

Natasha actually staggered Winter solider in civil war :

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She didn't overpower Cap actually, he overpowered her (though it clearly took some effort

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Also, Steve isn't leagues above Roy (not in strength). Roy's feat of smashing through concrete is clearly comparable to the striking feats of Bucky's metal arm (e.g. smashing the ground), and Bucky's metal arm has consistently been portrayed as stronger than Steve is. So yeah, Roy and Midnight are comparable in strength.

Look at midnight face and look at Steve's face (Midnight didn't expect a human to be that strong that's why she didn't try to overpower him ) and I still do not think Roy is comparable to midnight (Just because of superior feats like surviving high falls and getting thrown through a truck

These feats are clearly comparable to what widow has done in terms of raw strength, and outright better than here striking feats. The best striking feat you've shown for Natasha is ragdolling people, whereas Ollie can actually harm people much more durable than Widow.

Natasha could harm opponents like Winter solider that has better durability then Oliver (If you watch the movie you can actually hear the sound of her punch)

Again, the important thing is that Ollie definitely hits hard enough to put widow down.

No he doesn't it would be harder for oliver to put down Natasha (Because of her superior durability) then for Natasha to put oliver down (Because she actually harms opponents with durability feats)

These feats are clearly comparable to what widow has done in terms of raw strength, and outright better than here striking feats. The best striking feat you've shown for Natasha is ragdolling people, whereas Ollie can actually harm people much more durable than Widow

Like a said Natasha could harmed Winter solider and Proxima midnight who has ten times Oliver's Durability

Though it's true that Natasha grapples often, she doesn't always go for it. She didn't try it against Corvus or Proxima for example. And even if she did try it, she may not be successful given the skill gap (which I will go on to reinforce later), and even if she did you haven't convinced me that she can even put him down with her strikes given his feats of tanking hits from people who hit harder than she does. I'll even show some more:

She didn't grapple Proxima or Corvus because they didn't give her time and Natasha has comparable strength to oliver so I don't think he be able to break the grapple

There you go, even more feats of Ollie tanking attacks from people who hit as hard or harder than Natasha. How will she put him down physically if people (sometimes significantly) stronger than her have failed to do so?

Natasha also tanks attacks which are stronger then oliver (Proxima midnight/Winter solider/Hulk) and don't compare Natasha and Helena because Nat's better in ever way (By the way Helena is very underrated on Comic vine)

Counters II - Speed :

I disagree on Natasha having faster combat speed and also with your scaling. Wanda reacting to an explosion was one of two things; A) she didn't react to the explosion itself but to Rumlow triggering it or B) she did, in fact, react to a supersonic/hypersonic explosion, in which case it's a massive outlier given that no-one else in the MCU except maybequicksilver (and probably not even him) has that level of speed.

I like the way you consider Wanda's feat as a outlier but Oliver has feats like punching through the ground

So, Ollie should still be faster in combat due to scaling off of Ra's and his "teleportation" feat.

Natasha scales form faster characters like Scarlet witch/Black Panther so I don't think that's makes him faster

Given Ollie's incredible aim dodging capabilities, I think Natasha will struggle a lot to tag him with her shots. Also, as I said before, both fighters tend to engage in melee in a fight rather than stay in a shootout so Ollie will only have to avoid a few shots, which he definitely can do.

Likely we can a agree on that :-)

Counters III - Skill:

Um, what? When did this happen? Regardless that kinda just seems like a low showing for cap if he can't one shot nameless characters because he definitely should be one-shotting them - heck, Ollie can one-shot ghosts (Ghosts are highly trained elite mercenaries) all day but MCU Cap can't? lmao.

In the elevator scene in Winter solider and its no low showing for Captain A because Strike(They also survived one of Widow's bites) are Shield's top Mercenaries

When did Thea get her ass handed to her by fodder? Genuine question, I don't remember that happening. Regardless, if she did then that's a massive low showing given how skilled she has shown herself to be. Also, low showings affect everything, not just scaling. You have yet to debunk my skill scaling or to prove that Natasha is any higher than Nyssa level skill wise (and BTW if she's Nyssa level skill wise then Ollie probably stomps her in 12 seconds as he did to Nyssa).

Go watch all scenes Speedy 3:19 and I like to see Nyssa fight two Russian mercenaries while being bound to a chair and clears through fodder with no use of a melee weapon

MO, Clint only held his own due to the big range advantage of his staff. People often claim that Clint > T'challa in skill due to the fact that Clint got him in a hold. The issue with this is that putting someone in a hold does not make you more skilled than them (especially if they break out immediately). If it did, then Clint is also more skilled than Natasha given that he put her in a hold when they fought in Civil War. Except in the case of both Natasha and T'challa, they got out immediately and actually landed blows on Hawkeye (Natasha would have if Wanda hadn't intervened). The two fights are effectively the same, they fight for a bit, Clint puts his opponent in a hold, they Immediately get out and beat his ass. BP > Clint in skill which makes him look very unimpressive outside of his fights with Natasha.

The feat is Clint didn't look like a statue when he fought T'challa (Bullet timer) and T'challa didn't use skill to break out of Clint's hold like Natasha

The second issue I have is Clint being more skilled than these two. His only usable feat in the Cav is holding his own (but losing) to Black Panther who doesn't even have the feats to be better than Merlyn. You've provided zero feats that suggest that Clint is as good as Malcolm (because he isn't), let alone better. A statement with no feats to back it up isn't an argument.

I like to see Malcolm fight someone with ten times his strength and speed ???

Ah I see, Natasha is skilled because she held her own against Proxima, and Proxima is skilled because she could fight Natasha (and Cap). This is just circular scaling and means nothing. You can scale her skill off of Cap, but I'm pretty sure Widow > Cap in skill so I don't think that will help you much. Proxima is skilled, yes. This isn't in question. But due to her lack of feats, you can't use her skill to elevate the skill of Natasha, because then you'd be scaling Natasha from herself.

Proxima midnight didn't get out skilled in any way form three Master Combatants (Natasha/Okoye/Steve) that's why I said she has a bit of skill

So, Natasha is still only Nyssa level at best and as such she gets stomped in less than 30 seconds just like Nyssa did.

You wish !!!(I like to Nyssa clear through fodder with out her sword and fight a opponent like Proxima midnight)

Counters IV - Archery

Alas, if only saying it made it so. Clint isn't equal to Ollie in archery until you prove he is. Regardless, Ollie has better draw speed than Clint, and I've already shown some of Ollie's draw speed feats that outclass Clint's. If Ollie can tag a casual bullet timer with his skill then he can tag Natasha. In fact, here's another feat:

Clint was able to pressure a bullet timer (black Panther) and Clint is at least comparable to Oliver in someway

Here Ollie manages to draw and fire an arrow at Vigilante before he can pull the trigger. This is impressive because Vigilante has shot arrows out of the air.Again, if Ollie is good enough can tag casual arrow timers and bullet timers, then he can tag Natasha as she is neither.

Natasha already arrow timed and I could argue that's she is a bullet timer (By scaling of course)

Conclusion

  • I think Oliver has the advantage in stats(Except Durability) but Natasha more skilled because I don't really believe in scaling so if you can post feats form oliver himself then that would be nice :-) /Like look at Colleen Wing she has a bad time with fodders but most of her feats come form fighting opponent's like Mary walker,Davos,Danny that's why its hard to imagine Oliver skill level

The fight would go like this they would have a short shoot out but like you said it will go down to a melee battle and I believe Natasha skill edges oliver out

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#34 Posted by JacenSolo77 (189 posts) - - Show Bio

Better structured than the last rebuttal, good job.

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#35 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (1985 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#36 Edited by maestromage (645 posts) - - Show Bio

CW Arrow, "The Green Arrow"

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Counters I - Physicals:

Natasha actually damaged Corvus because he could still stand after she stabbed him (She basically knocked him down)

He "could still stand" after she stabbed because he was still on the end of Proxima's spear (or is it a staff? idk)

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We can see that just before she kicked him, the spear was still in Corvus' chest. She kicked him off of the spear. But this is pointless as it would be an outlier anyway.

and I don't considered it an outlier

Umm, what? So Natasha (supposedly) hitting considerably harder than a Steve with vibranium weapons isn't an outlier? Vision was slamming the guy into buildings and Corvus (seemingly) took no damage but one kick from Widow putting him down is legit? Like, do you hear what you're saying?

Natasha actually staggered Winter solider in civil war :

Ok, impressive, but not that impressive given that she did no real damage and he stomped her about 3 seconds afterwards. In fact, he went on to tango with Tony and T'challa and was still fine after all of that. Bucky would have to be wayyy more durable than Ollie for this to mean much (and he isn't). Even if he was that much more durable, it's on you to prove it. Plus, I already showed youOllie physically contending with Mirakuru soldiers and drawing blood from them H2H(Mirakuru soldiers have comparable physicals to super soldiers). I also showed you him tanking hits from them. Natasha does not hit as hard as Mirakuru soldiers.

Look at midnight face and look at Steve's face (Midnight didn't expect a human to be that strong that's why she didn't try to overpower him ) and I still do not think Roy is comparable to midnight (Just because of superior feats like surviving high falls and getting thrown through a truck

Saying she didn't try to overpower him is headcanon as far as I'm concerned. She and Corvus were going for the kill trying to get the mind stone, there's no reason at all for her to hold back here (to my knowledge). Besides, even if I were to concede that Roy isn't comparable to Proxima in strength (he is), you also have to acknowledge the fact that the feats aren't really comparable. Natasha seemed hard pressed to even deflect Proxima's punches, yet Ollie Stopped Roys punch with one hand (and he did it twice btw).

Speaking generally, I totally agree that Proxima is above Roy. But their strength feats are definitely comparable. Roy has comparable strength feats to Cap (sending someone flying with a casual push, sending someone flying so hard they crack the windshield of a card and keep going, that feat I showed of him shaking that big metal thing by pushing Ollie with one hand, etc.). And if we were to look at composite feats of all Mirakuru users, then you could easily argue that they are actually stronger than MCU super soldiers. For example:

No Caption Provided

But I'm getting off topic, back to the counters lol.

Natasha could harm opponents like Winter solider that has better durability then Oliver (If you watch the movie you can actually hear the sound of her punch)

She didn't harm him at all actually because there was no indication she did any damage to him. She staggered him, but he basically no sold it. Even saying she did, it's still a high-end feat given how he was tanking hits from T'challa literally less than 10 seconds later. Also, she then goes on to elbow him in the head several times and also seems to do no damage lol. Actually, this is probably a good comparison. She staggered Bucky for sure, but she didn't do enough damage to him that she would put him down in any reasonable amount of time. This is similar to her against Ollie, especially as he and Bucky have comparable durability (Buck is more durable, but not by a huge amount).

No he doesn't it would be harder for oliver to put down Natasha (Because of her superior durability) then for Natasha to put oliver down

Superior durability? How so? You didn't show any new durability feats for Natasha, nor did you debunk any of my feats. I've shown you him tanking hits from super soldier level opponents multiple times, tanking hits from flash, and you've shown me... Natasha getting flung from Hulk's shoulders lmao. You've actually shown very little in the durability department, so that is a bold claim indeed. Regardless, you were missing my point. Ollie doesn't necessarily need to be more durable than Natasha to win this fight. It's not a durability contest. What matters is Natasha's Striking vs Ollie's durability and Ollie's striking vs Natasha's durability, not Ollie's durability vs Natasha's durability.

(Because she actually harms opponents with durability feats)

What does that even mean lmao

Like a said Natasha could harmed Winter solider and Proxima midnight who has ten times Oliver's Durability

Natasha hit Proxima once the whole film she did no damage lol. She kicked her in Wakanda and there was no indication that any damage was dealt. I've already debunked the Bucky incident. And I don't think either of them has 10x Ollie's durability. Superior? Sure. But 10x? I'm not sure about that. So yeah, she still doesn't have the striking feats to put Ollie down in a reasonable amount of time.

She didn't grapple Proxima or Corvus because they didn't give her time

So what makes you think Ollie will give her the time then?

and Natasha has comparable strength to oliver so I don't think he be able to break the grapple

Um, not really. From what you've shown so far, Ollie's strength feats clearly outclass Natasha's (e.g. catching a punch from Roy with one hand vs struggling to deflect a punch from Proxima with two hands and a weapon). Plus, one can also break through a grapple with skill, strength isn't 100% necessary.

Natasha also tanks attacks which are stronger then oliver (Proxima midnight/Winter solider/Hulk)

She didn't tank anything from Proxima or Bucky. Proxima (without even getting a clean hit in) had widow on the floor and was about to kill her. Bucky didn't even hit her (lol) but he was about to choke her to death, which just leaves you with Hulk (which I addressed as problematic in my first post), but if you really insist then fine:

Flash 4x8
Flash 4x8

Ollie took a punch from Overgirl and didn't die. However, this is just as problematic as the Hulk feat (which is why I didn't use it) because it's suggesting that Ollie can tank an attack like this:

No Caption Provided

When obviously he can't. Given that these two feats are comparable, I'm just going to ignore the Hulk taking "tanking a hit from Hulk" and instead as "taking a hit that sends her flying a decent distance

and don't compare Natasha and Helena because Nat's better in ever way

Why not? You've given me no reason not to. You haven't shown striking feats massively above snapping a neck with a punch or kicking a concrete block in half, so why should I not compare their striking?

Overall, you've still failed to show sufficient durability feats that would allow Natasha to tank Ollie hit's for long, nor have you shown sufficient striking for Natasha to put Ollie down in a reasonable amount of time.

Ollie still has a notable advantage in physicals

Counters II - Speed:

I like the way you consider Wanda's feat as a outlier but Oliver has feats like punching through the ground

Punching hard enough to break wood isn't so impressive to be considered an outlier (especially when the guy can hurt Mirakuru soldiers). However, in a verse where the speedster is barely faster than bullets, Black Widow being hypersonic is clearly not right lol.

Plus, Darhk (someone who Ollie fought evenly like 7 times) has also explosion timed

Arrow 4x23
Arrow 4x23

But I'm not going to argue using this cos it's an outlier lol.

Natasha scales form faster characters like Scarlet witch/Black Panther so I don't think that's makes him faster

I've already dealt with Wanda, but Natasha scales to BP kinda loosely as she's never fought him herself. She's only fought people who have fought BP. However, Ollie has actually fought bullet timers himself before (Vandal Savage and Damien Darhk).

No Caption Provided

And he's actually beat them. So, yeah.

Beating a bullet timer > Beating someone (Clint) who held their own against a bullet timer.

Likely we can a agree on that :-)

c:

Counters III - Skill:

In the elevator scene in Winter solider and its no low showing for Captain A because Strike(They also survived one of Widow's bites) are Shield's top Mercenaries

I rewatched the scene and none of those guys "tanked" anything. Half of them got one shotted, and the rest got 2 shotted. Not getting one shotted by cap ≠ tanking attacks from cap. And even if they did, nameless fodder tanking attacks from a guy who can do this:

No Caption Provided

Is most definitely a low showing, regardless of them being SHIELD's top team. Being SHIELD's top team isn't a reason for having better stats. Regardless, the stats of the strike team are irrelevant when talking about skill.

Go watch all scenes Speedy 3:19 and I like to see Nyssa fight two Russian mercenaries while being bound to a chair and clears through fodder with no use of a melee weapon

Um, just watched Season 3 episode 19. Thea's only fight was against Ra's who is definitely not fodder lol. I don't know if you meant a different episode, but Thea definitely didn't get wrecked by fodder in that one lol. Nyssa doesn't need feats of beating people while tied to a chair to be as skilled a Natasha when she has a better feat of beating 5-ish actually skilled fodder whilst surrounded. And using a melee weapons doesn't make you any less skilled. Hell, a lot of you skill feats for Natasha were done with gear (Strike team, beating Clint in civil war, Proxima etc.)

The feat is Clint didn't look like a statue when he fought T'challa (Bullet timer) and T'challa didn't use skill to break out of Clint's hold like Natasha

Already talked about this in speed, and this is a speed feat and not a skill feat. Clint is still not as skilled as Malcolm.

I like to see Malcolm fight someone with ten times his strength and speed ???

So, are you saying that Clint isn't as fast as BP and used his skill to compensate? Because if so then there goes you bullet timing speed scaling. And as for Merlyn fighting someone with "10x his strength":

No Caption Provided

There you go. Merlyn fighting a Mirakuru Soldier (who are comparable to super soldiers in stats). He even straight up blocks two of his punches. Still got stomped by Ollie tho. So yeah, Clint still isn't on Malcolm's level in skill or stats.

Proxima midnight didn't get out skilled in any way form three Master Combatants (Natasha/Okoye/Steve) that's why I said she has a bit of skill

She literally did tho lol. Natasha straight up disarmed Proxima in 1v1. Proxima should be < Natasha in skill based on that. But she is skilled yeah, I don't don't that.

You wish !!!(I like to Nyssa clear through fodder with out her sword and fight a opponent like Proxima midnight)

As if Natasha didn't use weapons both times she scuffled with Proxima, and as if using weapons somehow makes you less skilled.

Counters IV - Archery:

Clint was able to pressure a bullet timer (black Panther) and Clint is at least comparable to Oliver in someway

Clint didn't pressure T'challa with his archery. BP seemed to deal with his arrows without much trouble. And Ollie has better draw speed feats, as I've already shown (tagging arrow timers and overwhelming a bullet timer).

Natasha already arrow timed and I could argue that's she is a bullet timer (By scaling of course)

I don't think you can scale someone to bullet timing, especially as bullet timing doesn't always translate completely into combat speed. Reaction speed ≠ combat speed. Besides, I could use the same logic to scale Ollie to being a bullet timer, but I won't because it gets kinda awkward and messy.

Again, if he can overwhelm a bullet timer, he can overwhelm Natasha.

I don't really believe in scaling

Natasha already arrow timed and I could argue that's she is a bullet timer (By scaling of course)

huh

(also I already showed a skill feat for season 1 Ollie long before he got a massive skill buff in season 3)

Conclusion

@bpg You've failed to disprove anything. Ollie still has a big physical advantage, Natasha still isn't any more skilled than Nyssa, and Ollie still stomps based on this. Nothing has really changed.

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#37 Posted by maestromage (645 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

Also @bpg how many more posts do you want to do? Shall we do one more each?