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#1 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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@sirfizzwhizz

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@zetsumoto

Vergil gets composite feats from both games.

Dracula is the Marvel version.

Both going all out.

Random Encounter.

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#2 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#3 Posted by SolomonTheNotSoWise (851 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#4 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I'll let you go first, since you technically already have a post that just needs tweaking.

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#5 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18240 posts) - - Show Bio

.....t4v, but I can't promise I'll vote.

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#6 Posted by deactivated-5aba78567e8b5 (4502 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#7 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting. T4V.

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#8 Posted by Rac95 (4333 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#9 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I'll let you go first, since you technically already have a post that just needs tweaking.

Ok I will get it up tonight after work,

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#10 Edited by Chimeroid (9228 posts) - - Show Bio

I generally retired from CV. But cant pass this up.

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#11 Posted by DeathHero61 (18682 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: I mean I could have taken over for Moreleericks as Darkrai.

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#12 Posted by LDM (5361 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#13 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61 said:

@zetsumoto: I mean I could have taken over for Moreleericks as Darkrai.

*shrugs* talk it over with @sirfizzwhizz I guess. I am fine with either or.

Nah, that ship sailed. I want this one on one.

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#15 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by ThunderPrince (6924 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#17 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: Im going to use my older post with updates from the unfinish CaV.

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Dracula

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Quick Bio on who he is and what he can do. Marvel's Dracula is one of the strongest versions of the fictional vampire in all of media. A real powerhouse with incredible powers of the old school monster films taken to the next level.

Strategy

In this fight, the opening move of Dracula is to start things off with multiple distractions. In this case powerful storm winds and lightning. Dracula has power over the weather to a good degree. Enough power to challenge even Storm or Thor for command of the storms.

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Manipulates this snow storm for cover. Generates powerful storm clouds and raging winds.

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Generates winds that can even knock around Silver Surfer in scan 2.

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Matches Thor's own control of the elements.

With high winds and rain for distractions out of the way, Dracula will kick off with chain lightning that will follow and strike at Vergil every second. Non stop pressure.

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Dracula had lightning chase nightcrawler for a full battle non stop. Same scenario here. I find it hard for Vergil not to be pressured by this. Now you could say Vergil will let the lightning chase into Dracula like Nightcrawler did, only two issues. One, NC has greater and faster speed via teleport. Dracula is easy in Vergil speed range. Two, Dracula was fighting a whole X-Man team. kurt would never pulled that off without the distractions. Here its all Dracula and Vergil.

Speaking of speed, lets touch on why I feel Dracula is as fast. He simply is by feats.

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Dracula moves as a blur at running speeds. outpacing the explosions.

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Dracula in bat form dodges multiple lightning strikes aimed at him by another supernatural power.

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Blitzes Jack Russel, aka Werewolf by Night. Leaving an after image.

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In all these scans, Deadpool was hopelessly outclass in speed. Blitzed easy as Dracula who left behind many after images.

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Dracula here reacts and beats Spitfire. Spitfire was a speedster mutant who gain even faster speed as an Vampire, and Dracula matches her speed and beats her fine.

There is no silly argument of Vergil being faster by feats. Vergil best feat is swipping bullets onto his sword. He never dodge lightning (outlier for Dracula, but just to make a point) or made after images while attacking. Both have moved FTE. That argument will not work. With that all layed out, I can later touch on the superior hax, regen, and strength of Dracula that wins the day for him.

So with that said I leave the floor to you.

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#18 Posted by DeathHero61 (18682 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: You just gave me an idea for a match, maybe in the future, Vlad Plasmius(who ironically was intended to be a vampire) vs Marvel Dracula. That would be interesting.

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#19 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: You just gave me an idea for a match, maybe in the future, Vlad Plasmius(who ironically was intended to be a vampire) vs Marvel Dracula. That would be interesting.

You can take on the leftover pieces in a CaV when Vergil is done with him.

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#20 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: You just gave me an idea for a match, maybe in the future, Vlad Plasmius(who ironically was intended to be a vampire) vs Marvel Dracula. That would be interesting.

Sounds good.

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#21 Posted by Helloman (28486 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#22 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

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Vergil:

Bio: Two thousand years ago, the Demon Lord, Mundus, sought to conquer the human world. Suffering a crisis of conscience, the demon swordsman, Sparda, led a rebellion against Mundus and his legions. After defeating the Hell King and his legions, he disappeared only to resurface in the modern era where he sired two sons with a human.

As you all know, Vergil is the son of Sparda and the twin brother of Dante. After his mother was murdered by demons seeking revenge on Sparda; Vergil went down a dark path, seeking vast demonic powers in order to defend the human world from the extra-dimensional threat.

Counters:

The first thing I'd like to address is your storm manipulation. I realize that your post was pasted from the unfinished CaV, and I'd like to inquire as to whether such an opening is still practical in this situation. In the last thread, the battleground was rather large, giving you time to cast somewhat lengthy spells.

In this case however, the battleground is far smaller, and our characters start out in more or less plain view of each other. Can Dracula actually summon a decently powerful storm before Vergil is able to force a confrontation? Vergil has a number of ranged attacks and gap closing abilities, which he can use to initiate combat the very instant the battle begins...

Chain Lightning:

The next thing I'd like to address is the Lightning... Vergil just has a MASSIVE plethora of ways in which he can counter this strategy. The simplest would be for him to simply move right past it go in for the kill. Or even straight up cut it out of the air, I mean Vergil's reaction and movement speed >>>>>>>>> Nightcrawler's. I'll get more on that later.

Alternatively, he could likely just tank it outright. Vergil is the son of Sparda. The main enemy of the Sparda bloodline has always been Mundus. Mundus is not just a lightning demon... He is THE lightning demon (not to mention, he gives most of his army lightning based abilities).

While Vergil himself has not encountered any lightning users (on screen), we can get a decent picture of what his resistances are like by scaling him off of Dante. Note, Dante and Vergil are TWINS. They have always been portrayed as fairly equal in stats.

Dante has:

Even if you don't like scaling; Vergil himself has shown immense regenerative abilities. Here he gets cut through the mid-section (a blow that should have completely removed his torso from his waste) with a powerful magic sword and regenerates so quickly that his body stays completely together:

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It's also worth mentioning that his demon form has a visible lightning aura, and is also activated by a Shazam style lightning bolt (which can be used offensively by the way).

He is also capable of using his spectral blades as a pseudo force-field to negate energy attacks:

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Dracula's lightning on the other-hand, barely harmed Nightcrawler, a street leveler.

One, NC has greater and faster speed via teleport.

Does he now?

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Dracula was fighting a whole X-Man team. kurt would never pulled that off without the distractions.

Vergil may not have a team backing him up, but he can apply plenty of counter pressure via his spectral blades; while staying on the move:

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Strategy:

To be frank, I don't really see anything to suggest that Vergil can't just outmaneuver and decapitate you from mid to close range. Vergil wields a dimension cutting blade. It can be used to rip holes in pocket dimensions and slice through objects from a distance:

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Unless Dracula's sword has feats of clashing with dimension cleaving weapons, it will be incapable of stopping an attack from Vergil. I foresee his lack of knowledge on my character leading him to try and block an attack only for it to go straight through and cleave him in two.

He simply is by feats

Sorry, but I don't think any of those feats prove they are in the same ballpark. The first feat is just him moving at blur speeds. You said he's outpacing explosions, and I do see some explosions around him, but nothing that definitively shows that he's moving faster than the blast expansions. Also, I find it ironic that you are using explosion timing feats, given what you have argued on the subject in the past; but I won't get into that right now...

The lightning feat is just flat out vague. Even disregarding the fact that it's rather outlier-ish (even Punisher has cloud to ground lightning timing feats), nothing in that scan proves he moved out of the way of a lightning bolt that was already in motion. At most, you can argue that he predicted a lightning bolt and moved out of the way. Yes, lightning bolts can be predicted, even by normal people. Right before a lightning bolt strikes; it sends out feelers, charging the air with electricity:

If you feel your skin tingle or your hair stands on end...squat low to the ground on the balls of your feet. Places your hands on your knees with your head between them. Make yourself the smallest target possible and minimize your contact with the ground.

---Taken straight from https://www.weather.gov/cae/ltg.html

Dracula is a weather manipulator. It makes sense that someone as in tune with the atmosphere as he is, would be able to predict the trajectory of lightning bolts before they happen.

Your next two feats are Dracula being FTE and having after images while against street levelers (Deadpool and Werewolf By Night). Those aren't even top tier street levelers. I didn't see anything that someone like Jack the Ripper or even Luthor Strode couldn't replicate.

Your third feat might help your case, but since I don't know Spitfire; I have no idea how impressive that feat is supposed to be.

While impressive, Vergil is simply in a whole other league. He's able to go toe to toe with Dante. Someone who can run down the side of a tower with enough speed to and force to compress the air into an electrically charged plasma:

https://youtu.be/DReUg3OY2Us?t=107

This type of effect is typically only reached during re-entry level speeds, which are often in the range of Mach 20+. The thing about re-entry however, is that ships are designed to take advantage of drag in order to slow their speeds during re-entry. This means they have a LOT of surface area, making it hard for the air to move out of the way; causing it to get compressed and heated into a plasma:

What Dante did however, was achieve the above effect with a SWORD; which doesn't even have a fraction of the surface area that a space shuttle would. This means that he would have to be moving SIGNIFICANTLY faster to replicate re-entry levels of atmospheric compression.

Even if we were to disregard all the science mumbo jumbo; it's pretty clear that Dante and Vergil are meant to be in deep into the hypersonic range if not in the, outright, double digits of mach speed. And that's WITH a healthy dosage of low-balling.

Vergil best feat is swipping bullets onto his sword.

  1. Dante's bullets are magic and likely moving faster than normal bullets, but I am not gonna get into all that.
  2. That's still several magnitudes more impressive than anything you have shown.
  3. Vergil is also fast enough to cut a bullet into 6 individual parts so quickly that it's practically frozen in mid air for him:
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He never dodge lightning (outlier for Dracula, but just to make a point) or made after images while attacking

Hahahahahaha!!!

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Summary:

Lightning that could barely tag Nightcrawler, isn't tagging Vergil. Lightning that barely injured Nightcrawler, isn't going to harm Vergil either.

Even if we were to assume, purely for the sake of the debate, that Vergil and Dracula are in the same ball park for speed; that still means Vergil has several major advantages:

  • Dracula is incapable of blocking the sword. (a fact that Dracula is unaware of).
  • His sword cuts further than the blade.
  • Vergil can spam teleportation nightcrawler style. (I don't think I need to tell you how well Nightcrawler does against those of similar physical stats)
  • He can spam supersonic projectiles while on the move. Not to mention the fact that said projectiles can appear in mid air. They can appear surrounding you. Come from the sky. Or be fired from around Vergil's position.
  • Also note that these swords can actually freeze motion almost like a time-stop.
  • With DMC feats, Vergil can also make clones to help him fight. Do note the slow motion lightning striking around him (which he seemed to be able to direct and use offensively) as well as the tornado winds that appeared around them.

I'll take my leave with some clips of sheer badassery:

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#23 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: Why does Vergil have veins all over his face, or is this the reboot Vergil not looking like a pussy?

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#24 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: Why does Vergil have veins all over his face, or is this the reboot Vergil not looking like a pussy?

It's the corrupted Vergil skin.

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#25 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto:

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The first thing I'd like to address is your storm manipulation. I realize that your post was pasted from the unfinished CaV, and I'd like to inquire as to whether such an opening is still practical in this situation. In the last thread, the battleground was rather large, giving you time to cast somewhat lengthy spells.

In this case however, the battleground is far smaller, and our characters start out in more or less plain view of each other. Can Dracula actually summon a decently powerful storm before Vergil is able to force a confrontation? Vergil has a number of ranged attacks and gap closing abilities, which he can use to initiate combat the very instant the battle begins...

I stand by the opening for several reasons. The biggest reason is Dracula has pulled off weather control attacks against Storm and Silver Surfer in no time flat. I have no reason not to think Dracula can do so here, and Dracula can be airborne or on the move to do it as all.

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Generates winds that can even knock around Silver Surfer himself a bit.

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Dracula summons a storm that generates tidal waves and knocks around a ship at sea.

Be hard for even Vergil to counter such lightning falling from the sky and winds that knock Surfer around in split second time frames. Remember, Dracula is as fast.

Chain Lightning

The next thing I'd like to address is the Lightning... Vergil just has a MASSIVE plethora of ways in which he can counter this strategy. The simplest would be for him to simply move right past it go in for the kill. Or even straight up cut it out of the air, I mean Vergil's reaction and movement speed >>>>>>>>> Nightcrawler's. I'll get more on that later.

First off, Nightcralwer is not slow. He has kept up with Spidey and Archangel fine. Proving toi be in the Wolverine to Spider man speed levels. Second off, unlike Nightcralwer who had Storm, Colossus, and Wolverine as back up, Vergil is the sole focus here. no distractions for team buster Dracula.

If still not convinced, Apocalypse can counter super fast people like Quicksilver and Archangel all the time. Easily out speeds Nightcralwer too. We are talking X-Men team busting all the time APOCALYPSE!

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Yet Dracula's lightning is able to make him flinch. Also considering a blood lusted Silver Surfer is unable to speed blits Dracula, I dont see why the storm winds will not affect Vergil with chain lightning dropping too. Its a package.

Alternatively, he could likely just tank it outright. Vergil is the son of Sparda. The main enemy of the Sparda bloodline has always been Mundus. Mundus is not just a lightning demon... He is THE lightning demon (not to mention, he gives most of his army lightning based abilities).

He could "tank it".

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Though lightning that shatters trees into splinters is more powerful than real world lightning. May wear Vergil down, and stun Vergil for follow up close combat attacks. All according to plan.

While Vergil himself has not encountered any lightning users (on screen), we can get a decent picture of what his resistances are like by scaling him off of Dante. Note, Dante and Vergil are TWINS. They have always been portrayed as fairly equal in stats.

Dante has:

Dante is also BETTER than Vergil as we seen with Dante beating his Brother several fights in a row. Vergil beat Dante at his weakest in one fight only. Not a good scale IMO.

Even if you don't like scaling; Vergil himself has shown immense regenerative abilities. Here he gets cut through the mid-section (a blow that should have completely removed his torso from his waste) with a powerful magic sword and regenerates so quickly that his body stays completely together:\

Ah, the good old durability argument. Lets touch on the durability arguments. Dracula is better. Flat out. Its not even a contest here. When it comes to Blunt Force Durability and Explosive Durability, Dracula reigns here.

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Hit with sonic waves that liquefy human beings easy. In lots of pain, but his body holds firm.

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Here Dracula tanks a large explosion that would kill over an hundred humans easy, but only injures Dracula.

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Captain Britain full force punches Dracula in the face in anger and rage, but Dracula remains un faze when he gets right back up.

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The more powerful amped Nul Hulk slams Dracula and his forces with a single strike. This strike kills all the vampires from the force, but Dracula who recovers in a few panels, as if nothing happen.

All superior to anything Vergil withstood.

It's also worth mentioning that his demon form has a visible lightning aura, and is also activated by a Shazam style lightning bolt (which can be used offensively by the way).

Dracula durability to lightning is also insanely high.

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Dracula is hit with straight lightning till he catches on fire. No effect.

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Dracula takes a full enraged lightning blast from Storm, and shrugs it off fine.

So I dont see Vergil lightning a issue at all with its limited range and effects.

He is also capable of using his spectral blades as a pseudo force-field to negate energy attacks:

Dracula's lightning on the other-hand, barely harmed Nightcrawler, a street leveler.

Yes, it barely harm the guy IT NEVER HIT lmao. It never hit NC so how can you say it barely hurt him? What?!

Does he now?

I think so. I mean... Marvel Universe and what NC has dealt with > DMC universe lmao. Thats a typical battle forum argument, one I dont agree with but through out there anyway lol.

Vergil may not have a team backing him up, but he can apply plenty of counter pressure via his spectral blades; while staying on the move:

I think the Spectral Blades is the biggest saving grace for now. They are useful, and help. Still, its the only hax Vergil has that matters outside the dimension cutting which is also easily countered as I will touch on later. Im sure the whole dimension cutting business will come up soon if not next post. Oh wait, your nest paragraph goes into this. WHOPPIE!

To be frank, I don't really see anything to suggest that Vergil can't just outmaneuver and decapitate you from mid to close range. Vergil wields a dimension cutting blade. It can be used to rip holes in pocket dimensions and slice through objects from a distance:

Unless Dracula's sword has feats of clashing with dimension cleaving weapons, it will be incapable of stopping an attack from Vergil. I foresee his lack of knowledge on my character leading him to try and block an attack only for it to go straight through and cleave him in two.

HA HA! Lets get into this argument. The Dimension Cutting has several flaws to be exploited by Dracula. Flaw one! The blade takes time to preform that attack. In your gif, and in the Dante example of using it, there is no dimension cutting off the bat. Takes a stance with ample swing time. How is Vergil pulling this off with high winds knocking him around? Chain lightning knocking him around? The summon fodder that will cause Vergil hell. Wait, I have not touch on the summon fodder? Lets do that!

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Scan 1 has Dracula summoning bats, rats, and even wolves where none exist in Central Park to attack the X-Men. Summons enough Rats to cause Thor annoyance. Summons enough rats to annoy Silver Surfer. Summons enough wolves, bats and rats to topple over Apocalypse.

Summons various animals to attack.

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Summons lesser demons from hell to attack.

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Summons the dead in graveyards as zombies.

Many, many, many times Dracula use Fodder summon from nowhere to attack foes. This fodder is damn good at its job too. it has distracted Thor, Silver Surfer, and Apocalypse consistently! CONSISTENTLY! No reason or argument Vergil fairing better with high winds, lightning, or fodder now in the picture to pull off the dimension cutting.

Flaw 2. Dracula has the perfect counter in mist form. Yes mist form. Another ability that Dracula ABUSES the shit of in combat.

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Various uses of the mist in fights. Scans 1-2 he uses it to let wooden stakes by pass him. Scan 3-4 shows how Dracula uses it to let to avoid damage, and then counter attack. Scan 5 shows how even Apocalypse is unable to harm Dracula if Dracula does not wish it. Scan 6 is questionable canon wise, but another printed Marvel stamped comic of using it to avoid Thors attack.

Dracula time and again uses this form as pure mist to have attack cut through him. Attacks of all kinds. Not sure why cutting through mist that will reform right after will work.

Flaw 3. Dracula own Regen. If for some miracle of a reason Dracula is tagged, by this attack, he can tank it and heal. As I said, his healing is way better than Dante or Vergil by feats.

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Various feats of bullets and gunfire having no effect. with the damage healed as soon it happens. Including guns shots to the skull.

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Various feats of healing from states of death, or damage. Even as far reforming from bones, reforming from the fires that burn away the plane and bodies, and even having his head reattach fine in seconds.

So unless you decapitate him, which is highly unlikely as Vergil will not know this, Dracula can heal from this easy. Being cut in half is no issue.

Flaw 4. Last flaw is the most basic argument of Dracula own skill and speed on top of the factors above. Vlad could dodge it or try to avoid it with mist form while Vergil is POUNDED by fodder, lightning, and winds. I just dont see the viability of this attack without getting a lucky chance to pull it off. I also feel this is Vergil ONLY trump card that Vlad can beat out with his own trump card. Which will be touch on last post.

Sorry, but I don't think any of those feats prove they are in the same ballpark. The first feat is just him moving at blur speeds. You said he's outpacing explosions, and I do see some explosions around him, but nothing that definitively shows that he's moving faster than the blast expansions. Also, I find it ironic that you are using explosion timing feats, given what you have argued on the subject in the past; but I won't get into that right now...

Funny, after images (a Mach 3+ feat) and blitzing super sonic Marvel characters in fights (Mach 2+ beings) is somehow not same ball park as Vergil whose best feat is the bullets and rain feat. Mach 3+ as well. Riiiiight. Please tell me your not going to wank Vergil as some Mach 20+ being lol. Please.

The lightning feat is just flat out vague. Even disregarding the fact that it's rather outlier-ish (even Punisher has cloud to ground lightning timing feats), nothing in that scan proves he moved out of the way of a lightning bolt that was already in motion. At most, you can argue that he predicted a lightning bolt and moved out of the way. Yes, lightning bolts can be predicted, even by normal people. Right before a lightning bolt strikes; it sends out feelers, charging the air with electricity:

Like 90% of Dante speed feats and Vergil. Agreed. I mean, you argued Blitz, who is stated lightning speed, as legit when Blitz has no feats of such speed?

Dracula is a weather manipulator. It makes sense that someone as in tune with the atmosphere as he is, would be able to predict the trajectory of lightning bolts before they happen.

Yup, the only reason I brought it up was to throw shit at the fact how people WANK the shit out of DMC character speeds. Which I mention this as outlier as best anyway. No need to go this in depth with the argument on it.

Your next two feats are Dracula being FTE and having after images while against street levelers (Deadpool and Werewolf By Night). Your third feat might help your case, but since I don't know Spitfire; I have no idea how impressive that feat is supposed to be.

Spit Fire is a mutant who is insane fast. She is a speedster in same ball park as Quicksilver.

When she ran, a trail of non-damaging fire appeared behind her. Her skin was also hardened to withstand the rigors of such speed, providing a type of body armor

- Marvel Bio

Hyper-Speed: Spitfire possesses the ability to move at superhuman speeds. She can run in excess of the speed of sound, and thanks to her vampire stamina, can maintain this pace almost indefinitely.

- Marvel Undead #1

She is fast enough to set the air on fire via friction and stated hyperspeed. Though IMo by most f4eats Super Sonic area Mach 2-4 area.

While impressive, Vergil is simply in a whole other league. He's able to go toe to toe with Dante. Someone who can run down the side of a tower with enough speed to and force to compress the air into an electrically charged plasma:

Uh huh. So we ignor the fact Dante had Gravity help, long as run way, and this was his ONLY high end feat. Also ignor the fact Dante is better than Vergil? Seriously, show me Vergil making after images. Show me Vergil fighting characters with STATED speeds and not fan calc nonsense. That is what i like to see.

This type of effect is typically only reached during re-entry level speeds, which are often in the range of Mach 20+. The thing about re-entry however, is that ships are designed to take advantage of drag in order to slow their speeds during re-entry. This means they have a LOT of surface area, making it hard for the air to move out of the way; causing it to get compressed and heated into a plasma:

What Dante did however, was achieve the above effect with a SWORD; which doesn't even have a fraction of the surface area that a space shuttle would. This means that he would have to be moving SIGNIFICANTLY faster to replicate re-entry levels of atmospheric compression.

Even if we were to disregard all the science mumbo jumbo; it's pretty clear that Dante and Vergil are meant to be in deep into the hypersonic range if not in the, outright, double digits of mach speed. And that's WITH a healthy dosage of low-balling.

Yet you cannot show one feat of after images, or stated speed statements. Meanwhile I can. Vergil best speed feat is super sonic area via Dante bullets and the rain drops in their fight vs each other.

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That simple. I never understood why people felt the need to boost DMC characters as lightning timers or lightspeed as some Dante wankers do. I mean, Marvel Comics and character stats >>>>>>>>>>> DMC Universe right? You dont see me wanking Dracula who is solid high mid tier as lightning timer and lightspeed like other guys in his weight class do you? Lets be reasonable. Speed arguments are some of the most cancerous arguments on the Vine.

Dante's bullets are magic and likely moving faster than normal bullets, but I am not gonna get into all that.

Oh boy, here we go. proof of their stated speed being faster. ill wait for that load of poo poo.

That's still several magnitudes more impressive than anything you have shown.

After Images is insane impressive. Deadpool is able to swat bullets out of the air. Yet he was seeing 3-5 Draculas due to the speed gap. Enough said.

Vergil is also fast enough to cut a bullet into 6 individual parts so quickly that it's practically frozen in mid air for him:

A nice high end of the super sonic area and barely hypersonic. Matching Dracula. Congrats.

Hahahahahaha!!!

Awesome. I ask for after images, and you showed it. Good job. now we establish they are same speed. Dracula made after images to a mild speedster like Deadpool, and you shown gameplay mechanics of doing the same for a slow ass monster. We can continue now

Summary:

Lightning that could barely tag Nightcrawler, isn't tagging Vergil. Lightning that barely injured Nightcrawler, isn't going to harm Vergil either.

I debunk this argument the moment I made it. Moving on.

Even if we were to assume, purely for the sake of the debate, that Vergil and Dracula are in the same ball park for speed; that still means Vergil has several major advantages:

Dracula is incapable of blocking the sword. (a fact that Dracula is unaware of).

Dracula can block it fine. Not that Dracula uses close combat often anyway. Dracula also has made adamantium weapon many times. His sword blocked Black Swordsmen Ebony Blade fine. What is the Ebony Blade you ask?

Ebony Blade of Black Knight cuts through Iron Man's armor and withstands Admantium as near equals.

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Disarms Black Knight with Ebony Blades fails to break or cut through Dracula's sword.

Vergil is not cutting Dracula's sword by feats IMO. Add to all this, Dracula is also way stronger by feats.

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Both encounter throws Colossus himself with great force. No amp was stated or shown for this.

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Dracula one shots a castle door built to withstand battering rams.

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Dracula Here is able to kick down a steel vault door with ease.

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Dracula while weaken from the Garlic, Holy Water gas still one punches his way out of a steel lift.

Dracula is casual 25+ tons. Vergil has no strength feats on par. And no, comparing Dante from DMC4 to Vergil of DMC3 timeline is not cutting it either as a argument. Dracula would dominate the sword lock ups IMo unless there is some feats you have to say otherwise.

His sword cuts further than the blade.

Neat.

He can spam supersonic projectiles while on the move. Not to mention the fact that said projectiles can appear in mid air. They can appear surrounding you. Come from the sky. Or be fired from around Vergil's position.

This is offset by Dracula's chain lightning, hurricane like winds, and fodder that pin guys in place that make Vergil look like a child as well.

Also note that these swords can actually freeze motion almost like a time-stop.

Any non gameplay mechanics of this? Any statement to back the mechanics? This just seems like your opinion on what you think ot means. not that it would work on mist form anyway.

With DMC feats, Vergil can also make clones to help him fight. Do note the slow motion lightning striking around him (which he seemed to be able to direct and use offensively) as well as the tornado winds that appeared around them.

Ok ok, so wait. You showed a gif of after images. now I must question was the previous shown gif after images or clones then? This tears apart the after image argument, and your gif link is not working for me either.

Thoughts So Far

  1. Dracula is stronger for now till i see some feats.
  2. Dracula has adamantium weapons and the sword he last used never broke against the Ebony Blade.
  3. Dracula is as fast by feats. Wanking for both sides put aside.
  4. Dracula has better healing feats, and mist form to avoid any damage. Dracula is more durable in feats of blunt and explosive force. lightning will not harm Dracula at all either.
  5. Dracula has far superior distractions in fodder, lightning, and hurricane winds.
  6. Vergil best trump card takes more time than people like to argue and easily avoided or shut down in several ways.

In the end, Dracula relative stats and better hax wins the day.

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#26 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I have a solid chunk of my post done, but... Punisher just came out, and that takes priority. =P

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#28 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I have a solid chunk of my post done, but... Punisher just came out, and that takes priority. =P

Yeah, My wife is making me grind slowly through DD 1 and 2 so she can watch Punisher.

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#29 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

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Storms and Summons:

The biggest reason is Dracula has pulled off weather control attacks against Storm and Silver Surfer in no time flat. I have no reason not to think Dracula can do so here, and Dracula can be airborne or on the move to do it as all.

I'd like to see these "no time flat" feats... Vergil is a teleporter, even disregarding the speed gap; he'd be on top of Dracula long before Drake had the chance to try and re-position himself.

Be hard for even Vergil to counter such lightning falling from the sky and winds that knock Surfer around in split second time frames.

I don't see anything in either of your scans that show time-frame or prove that storm generation is something he can or would even try to do in such an immediate and straightforward confrontation. Especially since he doesn't know anything about Vergil.

In any case, neither Vergil or Dante were hindered by the powerful winds and lightning in this fight:

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In fact, Vergil seemed to be the one who summoned the storm, and was able to direct it to a solid degree. He may not be able to wrestle control of the storm from Drake, but having his own affinity for controlling the weather should mitigate the effectiveness of Dracula's storms by quite a bit.

winds that knock Surfer around in split second time frames.

Also considering a blood lusted Silver Surfer is unable to speed blits Dracula, I dont see why the storm winds will not affect Vergil with chain lightning dropping too. Its a package.

First off, Silver Surfer was in the sky where storms are the most dangerous... This fight is starting on the ground.

Secondly, you're trying to scale off of Silver Surfer? So, either Dracula is relativistic with FTL reaction timing and has the power to summon storm winds with force comparable to cosmic storms and super-novas... Or Silver Surfer was just jobbing... You know... Like usual...

I don't know about you, but I am going with the latter. Considering you have repeatedly referred to Dracula as an upper mid-tier to low high-tier at best; I think you'd agree with me as well. Especially since your standards for high tier (mountain level) is actually lower than what most people consider it.

Remember, Dracula is as fast.

Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

First off, Nightcralwer is not slow. He has kept up with Spidey and Archangel fine. Proving toi be in the Wolverine to Spider man speed levels.

That's arguably not even supersonic. Vergil deals in high mid-tier level speeds.

Second off, unlike Nightcralwer who had Storm, Colossus, and Wolverine as back up, Vergil is the sole focus here. no distractions for team buster Dracula.

Yea and Vergil is:

  • Hypersonic
  • Can block the lightning with spectral blades (Don't think I didn't notice you conveniently ignoring that gif)
  • More skilled
  • Can afford to tank damage
  • Has the offensive power to go in on Dracula
  • Has a far more aggressive style of combat.

If still not convinced, Apocalypse can counter super fast people like Quicksilver and Archangel all the time. Easily out speeds Nightcralwer too. We are talking X-Men team busting all the time APOCALYPSE!

I don't know about you, but I consider Nightcrawler's ability to react to the lightning in an actual combat situation to be far more indicative of it's speed than a random, one off, feat of a distracted Apocalypse being mildly surprised by lightning coming down in front of him.

Something tells me the voters would feel the same.

Though lightning that shatters trees into splinters is more powerful than real world lightning. May wear Vergil down, and stun Vergil for follow up close combat attacks. All according to plan.

Dante, in human form, was hit by a stone bridge shattering lightning bolt, and barely flinched. Stone bridge >>>>>> Tree.

Also, though DMC didn't have a ground destruction mechanic, the amount of debris kicked up by Vergil's lightning seems more impressive; though that's just my opinion:

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Dante is also BETTER than Vergil as we seen with Dante beating his Brother several fights in a row. Vergil beat Dante at his weakest in one fight only. Not a good scale IMO.

First off, just because 1 master swordsman can consistently beat another master swordsmen, does not mean that there is some kind of stat gap.

Secondly... Several fights in a row? Are we just making stuff up now? Dante fought Vergil 3 times.

  1. The first time, Dante got absolutely stomped.
  2. The second time, was a stalemate, where they were both left weak and injured.
  3. It wasn't until the third time, where Dante was armed to the teeth with a wide variety of magic weapons taken from various powerful demons guarding the tower, that Dante actually won.

Even in that last instance, it was far from a stomp. Vergil was the final boss. They were portrayed as equals. Even if we include Nelo Angelo (who kicked Dante's ass in their first confrontation), he only loss twice consecutively, due to his own internal conflict. Dante didn't surpass Vergil until the very end of the first game where he absorbed Sparda's power to take on Mundus. (The first game takes place after the third and before the fourth). Anything before that point in the timeline is perfectly valid for scaling as is the reboot.

The summon fodder that will cause Vergil hell. Wait, I have not touch on the summon fodder? Lets do that!

Just like with the storms, Dracula largely seems to utilize summons during indirect confrontations. Either because he knows his opponent is too powerful to fight head on or because dealing the enemy himself is simply beneath him.

Neither of the above fits this situation, as both of our characters are starting out in close proximity, and Dracula has know knowledge on his opponent. This is a direct confrontation. I am not storming your castle while you sit at a thrown spying on me and sending out hindrances like some kind of final boss; the fight has already begun.

Summons enough rats to annoy Silver Surfer. Summons enough wolves, bats and rats to topple over Apocalypse.

LMAO Silver Surfer and Apocalypse are getting hindered by rats and wolves now? Does Dracula enhance these animals to high tier level or something? The sheer absurdity of the situation debunks itself.

Summons lesser demons from hell to attack.

That's nice. Current Reboot Vergil is the KING of hell, and can control demons with a mere glance:

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In fact, as the King of Hell, he could probably summon them as well; but we won't know since this is where the story ended.

Strength and Durability:

Dracula is casual 25+ tons. Vergil has no strength feats on par. And no, comparing Dante from DMC4 to Vergil of DMC3 timeline is not cutting it either as a argument.

Here, he punches an elephant sized demon so hard it slams into the ceiling. Then he proceeds to kick it in the mid section, with enough speed and force to cut it in half:

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This is not a fodder demon. This is the boss, Beowulf. It's strong enough to give, even Dante minor trouble.

Vergil is also strong enough to overpower pre-awakened Dante. Dante is strong enough to smack a billiard into the ceiling, causing this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Then we have reboot feats, where Vergil can straight up tackle people through several stone walls:

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And tanks a hit from demon from a 100+ ton, city leveling monster, and only receives minor injury:

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And that's without getting into scaling with reboot Dante.

Speed

Like 90% of Dante speed feats and Vergil. Agreed. I mean, you argued Blitz, who is stated lightning speed, as legit when Blitz has no feats of such speed?

I said he turns into actual lightning. Whether or not lightning in DMC verse is as fast as real world lightning is impossible to say. What we do know however, is that it's fast enough to cross from the sky to the ground near instantly. In any case, it should be much faster than Dracula's lightning, considering even Nightcrawler was able to react to that.

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Yup, the only reason I brought it up was to throw shit at the fact how people WANK the shit out of DMC character speeds.

Well it completely fails to be a comparable feat, because there is no indication whatsoever that Dracula was moving at comparable speeds to said lightning bolt.

She is fast enough to set the air on fire via friction and stated hyperspeed. Though IMo by most f4eats Super Sonic area Mach 2-4 area.

Vergil is quite clearly in the hypersonic ranges. If most of her combat feats are "only mach 2-4" then it's really not that great of a feat. Especially since she managed to land a few blows. I honestly don't know enough about her to say anything more. The only other feat from her that I know of is that she was having issues with Blade of all people. You know, the guy you price at 4 points in a tourney where guys like Vergil and Marvel Dracula aren't even allowed. I don't know honestly. Comic characters are always so damn confusing when it comes to scaling.

Uh huh. So we ignor the fact Dante had Gravity help,

Gravity??? Are you serious mate? Do you understand the concept of terminal velocity? Terminal velocity is when a falling object is no longer able to accelerate due to the intense drag forces caused by air friction. For a person, that caps out 122 miles per hour. That's less than mach 1. It doesn't even account for a fraction of the massively hyper-sonic speeds Dante was moving at.

Hell, if anything. The lack of traction due to running down a straight vertical wall hindered his speeds FAR more than the gravity helped.

long as run way,

He also doesn't need to utilize his maximum run-speed to be faster than Dracula. If he can sprint at re-entry level speeds, then his combat speed should be still be hypersonic ranges at minimum.

this was his ONLY high end feat.

Not really. If anything his fight with Mundus was faster, but I won't get into that since it's not relevant to Vergil. It's a defining moment for the speed ranges that Devil May Cry verse is capable of. This isn't a long running comic with decades upon decades of comics each from different writers with different ideas of his power. Unless you have something to contradict these speeds, it's a perfectly valid feat.

Also, Vergil can throw swords with enough speed/force to cause a vacuum:

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In order for an object to create a vacuum with raw speed, it would have to be moving at mach 7 speeds at a minimum.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/160882/how-fast-would-an-object-have-to-move-to-create-a-vacuum-behind-it

That's for a cube shaped object. An object with less surface area, such as a sword would need to move even faster. Especially if it's going to achieve a powerful enough vacuum to suck in large monsters. (I'll get into this later)

Also ignor the fact Dante is better than Vergil?

Not at this point in time. Vergil stalemated him in the following fight. If anything, Vergil was still portrayed as the more agile fighter.

Seriously, show me Vergil making after images. Show me Vergil fighting characters with STATED speeds and not fan calc nonsense. That is what i like to see.

I already showed you after image feats. This is why you should read the full post before you start responding. Unless of course, you are intentionally trying to mislead voters... -_-

There's no fan-calculations here. Dante moved fast enough to rapidly compress and super-heat the air in front of him. That requires hypersonic+ speeds. The feat was very clearly meant to signify the reentry level speeds that space-shuttles and meteors reach, and that is Mach 20+.

These are very clear, visual indicators of speed.

Yet you cannot show one feat of after images, or stated speed statements. Meanwhile I can.

I already showed feats of after images. Just because a feat doesn't have fancy numbers or explicit statements of hypersonic speeds, does not mean they aren't moving that fast. Haven't you already been over this with your CaV against Just_banter?

Hell, a lack of after images isn't even an indicator of slow speed. Tons of high tiers have fights with no blurs or after images. Are they street level speeds too?

Vergil best speed feat is super sonic area via Dante bullets and the rain drops in their fight vs each other.

Dude... Even those feats you are referring to are VASTLY more impressive than anything you have shown.

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That bullet was completely frozen from his POV. He cut it into 6 separate pieces, all before it could move even a millimeter. You cannot do this, with supersonic speeds. That is hypersonic+ range.

That rain feat? Again, beyond more impressive than anything you have shown:

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Catching bullets by twirling a sword?

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None of your speed feats measure up to this, no matter how much you insist they do. I wasn't planning on making a "Vergil just blitzes" argument, but this level of stubbornness needs to be shot down with prejudice. The fact that you can't even admit that Vergil has, even a partial, speed advantage is comical.

I think so. I mean... Marvel Universe and what NC has dealt with > DMC universe lmao. Thats a typical battle forum argument, one I dont agree with but through out there anyway lol.

Marvel Comics and character stats >>>>>>>>>>> DMC Universe right?

At this point, I think you are just writing to fill out your posts. I have never seen Nightcrawler deal with anything greater than what Dante or Vergil have had to deal with. Even if he has, it's pretty irrelevant. It's not like Nightcrawler magically became more powerful as soon as he got feats against more powerful characters. It just means he was always capable of it. Since Vergil outclasses him in every category, logically Vergil would be able to handle those situations just as well, if not outright better.

Also, just because Marvel Comics has characters with greater stats than what DMC characters are capable of, does not mean Dracula has those stats. It's a stupid argument. What's next, is Aunt May > Mundus, because she's a marvel character? Wait... Don't answer that...

Speed arguments are some of the most cancerous arguments on the Vine.

Normally I'd agree, but when speed is part of a character's shtick, and they have a clear advantage in that category; then it's a relevant point that must be brought up. The fact of the matter is, you have a mid-tier who is relatively slow (for the tier), but makes up for it with vast magical powers. Meanwhile, I have a straightforward fighter, who is quite fast for the tier. That's simply the match-up you challenged me to.

Oh boy, here we go. proof of their stated speed being faster. ill wait for that load of poo poo.

They don't even behave like normal bullets, and they hit with a far greater degree of force than what bullets of their size would be capable of if they were moving at normal bullet speeds. I am not going to go any further than this, as I have already provided more than enough feats to prove Vergil's speed. The bullets are pretty irrelevant.

Awesome. I ask for after images, and you showed it. Good job. now we establish they are same speed. Dracula made after images to a mild speedster like Deadpool, and you shown gameplay mechanics of doing the same for a slow ass monster.

The gameplay isn't from the POV of that "slow ass monster", it's from the player's perspective. In fact, the player's perspective is EXTREMELY slowed down, as even some of Vergil's downright sluggish move-sets are capable of causing your lauded "after-image" effects:

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Vergil's after-images were also far more spread out and in far greater numbers than Dracula's:

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Ok ok, so wait. You showed a gif of after images. now I must question was the previous shown gif after images or clones then? This tears apart the after image argument, and your gif link is not working for me either.

Uh, no. The after images feats are from Devil May Cry 4. The clones are unique to the reboot version of Vergil. Here is the feat:

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As you can see, the clones behave like actual clones. As in they persist in the world and can make take completely separate actions from Vergil. Besides, even if the Devil May Cry 4 feat did involve clones, it would mean Vergil can make a whole bunch of clones that are ALSO fast enough to make after-images. If you ask me, you'd be even worse off if that were the case.

If that's not enough for you, he has other after image feats like this:

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Flaw one! The blade takes time to preform that attack. In your gif, and in the Dante example of using it, there is no dimension cutting off the bat.

That specific attack was a flurry of cuts. Here he cuts long range, with no wait time:

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Also... Once again, gameplay is extremely slowed down for the player. Just because there is a noticeable pause from the player's perspective, does not mean the pause is noticeable in real time.

The Actual Battle:

Okay, first off. The Ebony Blade has no dimensional cutting properties as far as I am aware. This by itself rendered blocking it an invalid feat. Dimension cutting is completely separate from normal physical force. You cannot block it with conventional durability. You either have feats of resisting dimension/spatial attacks, or you don't.

Secondly, there are different grades of Adamantium. Unless you can prove Dracula's sword is as good as Wolverine's true adamantium, you cannot use it for scaling.

Thirdly... Dude... Do you even look at your own scans?

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Frankly speaking, it doesn't even look like the blades ever actually clashed with each other. If anything, it looks more like Dracula purposefully struck the handle of the blade, knowing full well that his sword would never stand up to the Ebony.

The part of the page that "maybe" indicates that the blades made contact is that middle panel where it looks like the blades "may have" clashed at the very base of the blades. However, Dracula was the one initiating the attack. Not the Black Knight. Even if we gave Drake the benefit of the doubt and assume the sword withstood actual contact; that does not prove that Dracula's sword would have withstood a direct slash from the Ebony blade.

Also... Neither this scene nor the one against wolverine have the same energy aura effect shown when the Ebony Blade cut through Iron Man's armor.

So no... I don't believe for a second that Dracula can block Yamato with his sword. Even if he could, do you really think you'll be "dominating the sword lockups" with these flying around (Do note the golden light, that'll be important in my following counters)?

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Dracula has the perfect counter in mist form. Yes mist form.

First off, I'd like to see evidence that the mist form can phase through a weapon that cuts the very fabric of space. Dimensional attacks such as those have always been a solid counter to intangibility based powers. Even Martial Manhunter has been cut by dimensional blades while trying to density phase.

Furthermore, demonic weaponry in Devil May Cry series have already shown to be capable of hitting intangible monsters:

https://youtu.be/X0pUaBo_ZhQ?t=52

This includes Vergil's spectral swords, which are able to turn the Blood Goyles (they are literally made out of blood, allowing solid objects to pass through them) to stone:

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To make matters worse for you, Dracula has shown weakness to divinity and ultraviolet light. In fact, I recall a scene in which Dr Doom canceled Dracula's mist form using magic and ultra-violet light. It was right before he started bragging about being Dracula's "physical and mystical superior". I can't find the scan again, but since you're the Drake expert I am sure you know what I am referring to.

There is also a seen of Dr Strange doing something similar, though I have to admit. I am a bit unclear on whether or not it was the light magic that rendered Drake tangible, or the illusion magic tied to it. That said, the Eye of Agamotto is known for weakening evil entities using light based attacks:

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The reboot version of Vergil is what's called a Nephilim. They wield the power of both demons and angels, which they are able to infuse into their weapons and attacks for various effects. Ironically enough, Dante relies on his demonic powers, whereas Vergil typically relies on his angelic abilities:

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Dracula can barely handle people using make-shift crosses. What do you think spectral swords imbued with actual angelic energy is going to do to him? Especially with how powerful the swords can get, as seen from Hollow Vergil (which normal Vergil fully absorbs):

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In fact, after absorbing his Hollow self, becomes powerful enough to blast light outwards in a large-scale AOE attack:

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Even original Vergil has divine attacks, in his Beowulf gauntlets.

Any non gameplay mechanics of this? Any statement to back the mechanics? This just seems like your opinion on what you think ot means. not that it would work on mist form anyway.

It's a video game. It's inevitable that a lot of feats are going to be told in game-play. Unless it's something that obviously contradicts the lore/narrative, such as normal humans surviving bullets due to a health-bar; gameplay feats are perfectly valid.

Opinion? I am not sure where there is to interpret. The effects of the swords are pretty damn clear as day:

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A similar effect is shown in the Reboot, where charging the spectral blades with demonic energy (the red spectral blade as opposed to the more angelic blue and gold) gives Vergil a telekinetic grip on the object:

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So unless you decapitate him, which is highly unlikely as Vergil will not know this, Dracula can heal from this easy. Being cut in half is no issue.

Vergil uses a flurry of slashes as a basic part of his combo. Get hit by that flurry, and you're likely to get decapitated by sheer probability. Also, he doesn't need to know anything about Dracula to go for the head or heart. That's basic common sense against healing factors. Especially in Devil May Cry verse where heal factors are dime a dozen, and going for decapitation or stabs to the heart have always been more effective than just cutting them up.

Furthermore, magic weapons in Devil May Cry verse have shown to tax healing factors. The more powerful the weapon, the better it is at doing so. That's why Dante doesn't give a shit about getting stabbed or slashed by ordinary demons:

https://youtu.be/vJafPKap0VM?t=99

Yet, when Vergil and Dante slash or stab each other, they end up weak and vulnerable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09IpDe7V8ZE&t=321s

Add in divine powers from the reboot, or the holy light beowulf gauntlets, and it's really not looking good for Dracula.

Summary:

  • I still hold the speed advantage, no matter how much you deny it.
  • You have not proven that Dracula would utilize storms or summons in a direct confrontation. Especially against an opponent who can teleport right to him.
  • You have not proven that Dracula's sword can block Yamato. Dracula has no information on Vergil and is unaware of Yamato's cutting ability. He's also unaware of the fact that it can cut further than the blade.
  • In fact, he's also unaware of the mystical and divine properties of Vergil's attacks, and has no reason to be wary or cautious of any of them.
  • Your mist form is countered by Vergil's divine magic attacks (again, a fact he is wholly unaware of).
  • Victory by decapitation is a rather obvious vulnerability.
  • Vergil's weapons have shown to be especially good at taxing healing factors.
  • All in all, I have pretty much countered every facet of your posts.
  • Also, you seem to have a tendency to exaggerate Dracula's feats. Like, you say he's "unfazed" when he looks incredibly injured, and you try to argue his ability to recover from heavy injury as some sort of durability feat even though his healing factor renders the level of injury near irrelevant.

@sirfizzwhizz I say we make our next posts our finals. Your move!

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#30 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto:

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Storms and Lightning

I'd like to see these "no time flat" feats... Vergil is a teleporter, even disregarding the speed gap; he'd be on top of Dracula long before Drake had the chance to try and re-position himself.

Well seem to pull it off no time flat vs Thor and Surfer in fights. Im not sure how you say otherwise.

I don't see anything in either of your scans that show time-frame or prove that storm generation is something he can or would even try to do in such an immediate and straightforward confrontation. Especially since he doesn't know anything about Vergil.

Ok, so you are arguing Dracula will not use strom in character? I mean you have a real good point there, but then, Vergil never uses dimension cutting to easy beat Dante or half the boss monsters either, but you claim he will here :/

Hypocritical IMO.

In any case, neither Vergil or Dante were hindered by the powerful winds and lightning in this fight:

In fact, Vergil seemed to be the one who summoned the storm, and was able to direct it to a solid degree. He may not be able to wrestle control of the storm from Drake, but having his own affinity for controlling the weather should mitigate the effectiveness of Dracula's storms by quite a bit.

Fair enough.

First off, Silver Surfer was in the sky where storms are the most dangerous... This fight is starting on the ground.

Ok.

Secondly, you're trying to scale off of Silver Surfer? So, either Dracula is relativistic with FTL reaction timing and has the power to summon storm winds with force comparable to cosmic storms and super-novas... Or Silver Surfer was just jobbing... You know... Like usual...

I never said Dracula is FTL, and Surfer himself never really fights FTL though he is easily Hypersonic plus in feats. So......

I don't know about you, but I am going with the latter. Considering you have repeatedly referred to Dracula as an upper mid-tier to low high-tier at best; I think you'd agree with me as well. Especially since your standards for high tier (mountain level) is actually lower than what most people consider it.

So you dont like the feat, you disregard it. Wish I can do the same for Vergil I guess.

Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

I shown it by feats. You just want to state the opposite, and you really cannot. feats show they are no advantages here without wanking anyway.

That's arguably not even supersonic. Vergil deals in high mid-tier level speeds.

Vergil is barely past supersonic by feats and easily in Spider Man levels which is only super sonic.

Yea and Vergil is:

Hypersonic

So is Dracula.

Can block the lightning with spectral blades (Don't think I didn't notice you conveniently ignoring that gif)

OK, I dont remeber this at all and if you said he can do that, cool. Lightning is a distraction more than anything and doing its job since Vergil has to activly use Spectral Blades to block it. Mission accomplish.

Skill

More skilled

How so? Where is Vergil more skilled?

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Dracula is centuries older than Vergil, wage more wars vs super beings than Vergil, and is a stated skilled swordsmen and combatant.

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A lot can be said about him here. Including greatest general of his time.

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Wisdom who leads the British superheros states Dracula is one of the most tactical geniuses of the time.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Multiple showings of his skill in human form with injuries against people trying to kill him. None of his Vampire powers, just relying on his human skill.

Even without powers, Dracula takes down foes via skill. Vergil never shown any skill without his powers of stats and such. I think its clear Dracula is the most skilled. In statements and showings of these two.

Back to Storm and Weather

Can afford to tank damage

Dracula cannot afford to tank damage? The feats I shown say otherwise. guy regens from dust and bones and taken blows from Amped Captain Marvel and Nul Hulk with minimal concern. Really?

Has the offensive power to go in on Dracula

Has a far more aggressive style of combat.

Ok. Dracula has a more strategist form of fighting and way better hax. He does not need to rely on clashing swords.

I don't know about you, but I consider Nightcrawler's ability to react to the lightning in an actual combat situation to be far more indicative of it's speed than a random, one off, feat of a distracted Apocalypse being mildly surprised by lightning coming down in front of him.

Ok. I agree mostly, Im just using your own lame logic of Vergil being a lightning timer against you is all.

Something tells me the voters would feel the same.

I doubt it. Depends if we have mostly DMC/Gamer fans vs Marvel/Comic fans who vote. The fact is your using shitty logic to justify Vergil as some lightning timer, or even Mach 20+ guy when he is by feats barely Hypersonic like Dracula. That simple.

Dante, in human form, was hit by a stone bridge shattering lightning bolt, and barely flinched. Stone bridge >>>>>> Tree.

Fair enough.

Also, though DMC didn't have a ground destruction mechanic, the amount of debris kicked up by Vergil's lightning seems more impressive; though that's just my opinion:

I say that is your opinion. Let me know when Vergil contends with Thor or Storm for weather manipulation. then we can talk what is more impressive.

First off, just because 1 master swordsman can consistently beat another master swordsmen, does not mean that there is some kind of stat gap.

Dante feats > Vergils. Not really a debate there.

Secondly... Several fights in a row? Are we just making stuff up now? Dante fought Vergil 3 times.

  1. The first time, Dante got absolutely stomped.
  2. The second time, was a stalemate, where they were both left weak and injured.
  3. It wasn't until the third time, where Dante was armed to the teeth with a wide variety of magic weapons taken from various powerful demons guarding the tower, that Dante actually won.

Dont forget Vergil as per first Dante game as Nelo Angelo who Dante stomped as well. Man, a non DMC fan correcting a fan...

Even in that last instance, it was far from a stomp. Vergil was the final boss. They were portrayed as equals. Even if we include Nelo Angelo (who kicked Dante's ass in their first confrontation), he only loss twice consecutively, due to his own internal conflict. Dante didn't surpass Vergil until the very end of the first game where he absorbed Sparda's power to take on Mundus. (The first game takes place after the third and before the fourth). Anything before that point in the timeline is perfectly valid for scaling as is the reboot.

He beats Vergil every fight they had but the first one. Well stalemate second one. Dante still drove Vergil off as Nelo Angelo every fight too. Dante is better in their bouts and feats. If I was to make a thread on who is better Dante or vergil, Dante would be the voted most for that reason. C'mon mate. Dont bullshit me in this CaV lol.

Summons

Just like with the storms, Dracula largely seems to utilize summons during indirect confrontations. Either because he knows his opponent is too powerful to fight head on or because dealing the enemy himself is simply beneath him.

Neither of the above fits this situation, as both of our characters are starting out in close proximity, and Dracula has know knowledge on his opponent. This is a direct confrontation. I am not storming your castle while you sit at a thrown spying on me and sending out hindrances like some kind of final boss; the fight has already begun.

Yet he used Summons in several fights out of couple dozen total. Its in character and a factor. I love how you just want to ignor what Dracula has shown to do in fights and make this some simple sword fight. Kinda bad form of ya.

LMAO Silver Surfer and Apocalypse are getting hindered by rats and wolves now? Does Dracula enhance these animals to high tier level or something? The sheer absurdity of the situation debunks itself.

Maybe he does enhance them. Its consistent as Squirrel Girl toppling Thanos and Doom with rats. Its consistent whether you like it or not.

Once again like the use of lightning, storm, and now fodder, trying to dismiss the consistent feats is sad debating. Thor, Surfer, Apocalypse. All work on them. Consistent. Sorry.

That's nice. Current Reboot Vergil is the KING of hell, and can control demons with a mere glance:

In fact, as the King of Hell, he could probably summon them as well; but we won't know since this is where the story ended.

So basically you have no feats of him with them really. Just a few second gif. Nice.

Strength and Durability:

Here, he punches an elephant sized demon so hard it slams into the ceiling. Then he proceeds to kick it in the mid section, with enough speed and force to cut it in half:

This is not a fodder demon. This is the boss, Beowulf. It's strong enough to give, even Dante minor trouble.

Thats a decent feat in the Spider Man area like Dracula. Cool. Though hardly same level of manhandling Colossus.

Vergil is also strong enough to overpower pre-awakened Dante. Dante is strong enough to smack a billiard into the ceiling, causing this:

Meh.

Then we have reboot feats, where Vergil can straight up tackle people through several stone walls:

And tanks a hit from demon from a 100+ ton, city leveling monster, and only receives minor injury:

Those feats are very meh to these.

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Both encounter throws classic 100 toner Colossus himself with great force. No amp was stated or shown for this.

Very meh to Dracula's high ends.

And that's without getting into scaling with reboot Dante.

So your best argument is again resorting to use Dante feats as Vergils. Poor debating there. At best you shown Vergil to be near enough to Dracula in strength by Vergil's stand alone feats.

Speed

I said he turns into actual lightning. Whether or not lightning in DMC verse is as fast as real world lightning is impossible to say. What we do know however, is that it's fast enough to cross from the sky to the ground near instantly. In any case, it should be much faster than Dracula's lightning, considering even Nightcrawler was able to react to that.

This is pretty much same lightning speed as these feats.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Im just saying.... nothing is lightning speed as per the arguments of combat speed here. Nothing of Vergil is faster really from what you shown. Reaction time? Sure. Moving and attacking at such speeds? Hells no.

Well it completely fails to be a comparable feat, because there is no indication whatsoever that Dracula was moving at comparable speeds to said lightning bolt.

I agree. I only threw the feat out there against the wank that Dante and Vergil are lightning timers or lightspeed even as some people wank.

Vergil is quite clearly in the hypersonic ranges. If most of her combat feats are "only mach 2-4" then it's really not that great of a feat. Especially since she managed to land a few blows. I honestly don't know enough about her to say anything more. The only other feat from her that I know of is that she was having issues with Blade of all people. You know, the guy you price at 4 points in a tourney where guys like Vergil and Marvel Dracula aren't even allowed. I don't know honestly. Comic characters are always so damn confusing when it comes to scaling.

She landed a few blows when surprise attacking Vergil. Before attacking him she was on his team lol. He still beat her back and only had his cloths cut. Context.

As for the Blade comment, Blade is super fast depending on whose writing him. He has blitz Deadpool, and speed wise matched Morbius and Spider Man lol. So not really a point of argument.

Gravity??? Are you serious mate? Do you understand the concept of terminal velocity? Terminal velocity is when a falling object is no longer able to accelerate due to the intense drag forces caused by air friction. For a person, that caps out 122 miles per hour. That's less than mach 1. It doesn't even account for a fraction of the massively hyper-sonic speeds Dante was moving at.

Hell, if anything. The lack of traction due to running down a straight vertical wall hindered his speeds FAR more than the gravity helped.

Gravity is a factor lmao. The pulling force to the earth is always greater help than moving at high speeds away from earth. Basic physics.

He also doesn't need to utilize his maximum run-speed to be faster than Dracula. If he can sprint at re-entry level speeds, then his combat speed should be still be hypersonic ranges at minimum.

Uh huh. He had so much running space. The feat and game itself lasts dozens of seconds.

Not really. If anything his fight with Mundus was faster, but I won't get into that since it's not relevant to Vergil. It's a defining moment for the speed ranges that Devil May Cry verse is capable of. This isn't a long running comic with decades upon decades of comics each from different writers with different ideas of his power. Unless you have something to contradict these speeds, it's a perfectly valid feat.

Its a single high end which you just kinda confirm. No more valid than Dracula dodging lightning. The feat been debunk in several other threads as well. I just think its false to use this speed as proof when Dracula reacted fine to a character who sets the air on fire from her own speed. You do not see me totting that feat around. Its not consistent and neither is this lol.

Also, Vergil can throw swords with enough speed/force to cause a vacuum:

In order for an object to create a vacuum with raw speed, it would have to be moving at mach 7 speeds at a minimum.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/160882/how-fast-would-an-object-have-to-move-to-create-a-vacuum-behind-it

That's for a cube shaped object. An object with less surface area, such as a sword would need to move even faster. Especially if it's going to achieve a powerful enough vacuum to suck in large monsters. (I'll get into this later)

Um this is like nothing to do with physics and more art/magic whatever. I mean, the sword is not traveling a straight line. Its hovering in mid air. Clearly not in align with physics. Wow. Add to this, throwing a object = combat speed? Sure....

Not at this point in time. Vergil stalemated him in the following fight. If anything, Vergil was still portrayed as the more agile fighter.

We touch on this many times now. Moving on.

I already showed you after image feats. This is why you should read the full post before you start responding. Unless of course, you are intentionally trying to mislead voters... -_-

Oh stop it, lol. I read and respond at the same time. I do not read a whole post, think about it, and then type up essay of shit. That is not how I role. I read the post and respond as I go down it. Now you know. mislead voters, how the hell can I mislead them when they read below this. Jeez mate....

There's no fan-calculations here. Dante moved fast enough to rapidly compress and super-heat the air in front of him. That requires hypersonic+ speeds. The feat was very clearly meant to signify the reentry level speeds that space-shuttles and meteors reach, and that is Mach 20+.

These are very clear, visual indicators of speed.

Or they are bullshit lmao. Dante here with his Mach 20 speed could not dodge the gun fire of Lady. She tags his cloak here. Nice mach 20+ speed there Dante.

https://youtu.be/P2rM6mrU-50?t=55s

Dante pissed off he was shot in the head. Very nice Mach 20+ speed.

https://youtu.be/yUa2r9MVG8o?t=26s

Yeah, no. Vergil is not Mach 20+ speed and scaling to Dante's single highest speed feat that is nowhere near the rest of his speed feats is just wrong. Go on mate. Show me another DMC3 or DMC1 feat that matches Mach 20+. Just one more. I'll wait.

I already showed feats of after images. Just because a feat doesn't have fancy numbers or explicit statements of hypersonic speeds, does not mean they aren't moving that fast. Haven't you already been over this with your CaV against Just_banter?

And Banter been called out for this kind of half ass mindset.

Hell, a lack of after images isn't even an indicator of slow speed. Tons of high tiers have fights with no blurs or after images. Are they street level speeds too?

I agree. I am also not arguing Vergil is not fast, he is simply not faster than Dracula by feats. they are in the same range.

Dude... Even those feats you are referring to are VASTLY more impressive than anything you have shown.

That bullet was completely frozen from his POV. He cut it into 6 separate pieces, all before it could move even a millimeter. You cannot do this, with supersonic speeds. That is hypersonic+ range.

That rain feat? Again, beyond more impressive than anything you have shown:

Catching bullets by twirling a sword?

None of your speed feats measure up to this, no matter how much you insist they do. I wasn't planning on making a "Vergil just blitzes" argument, but this level of stubbornness needs to be shot down with prejudice. The fact that you can't even admit that Vergil has, even a partial, speed advantage is comical.

Deadpool has caught bullets on his sword. Dracula after image his reaction time and senses. Wolverine can see bullets in motion and Dracula blitz Logan many times easy. Same for Werewolf by Night who seen bullets in slow motion, blitz by Dracula several times. Same for Blade and Spit Fire. Seeing a consistent speed here.

At this point, I think you are just writing to fill out your posts. I have never seen Nightcrawler deal with anything greater than what Dante or Vergil have had to deal with. Even if he has, it's pretty irrelevant. It's not like Nightcrawler magically became more powerful as soon as he got feats against more powerful characters. It just means he was always capable of it. Since Vergil outclasses him in every category, logically Vergil would be able to handle those situations just as well, if not outright better.

Also, just because Marvel Comics has characters with greater stats than what DMC characters are capable of, does not mean Dracula has those stats. It's a stupid argument. What's next, is Aunt May > Mundus, because she's a marvel character? Wait... Don't answer that...

LOL. Look mate, Nightcralwer has help fight off guys like Apaclypse, Magneto, the Stranger, Juggernaut, and other threats that would wreck the DMC universe by feats. Is this really a argument? No. This is just pointing out that Dracula lives and fights beings or teams as tough if not tougher than any boss Vergil fought in DMC3 is all.

Normally I'd agree, but when speed is part of a character's shtick, and they have a clear advantage in that category; then it's a relevant point that must be brought up. The fact of the matter is, you have a mid-tier who is relatively slow (for the tier), but makes up for it with vast magical powers. Meanwhile, I have a straightforward fighter, who is quite fast for the tier. That's simply the match-up you challenged me to.

But you failed to solidly show Vergil is faster by stand alone feats to Dracula. They are both in the barely Hypersonic range at best.

They don't even behave like normal bullets, and they hit with a far greater degree of force than what bullets of their size would be capable of if they were moving at normal bullet speeds. I am not going to go any further than this, as I have already provided more than enough feats to prove Vergil's speed. The bullets are pretty irrelevant.

So I guess Lady uses magical bullets too right? She tagged Dantes cloths and his face lol. Load of poo poo man.

The gameplay isn't from the POV of that "slow ass monster", it's from the player's perspective. In fact, the player's perspective is EXTREMELY slowed down, as even some of Vergil's downright sluggish move-sets are capable of causing your lauded "after-image" effects:

So as a player can I see Hypersonic speeds? Wait, dont answer that lol. the after images are in speed to the monster and player. In real time. Anyway, its a nice game play mechanic feat that matches Dracula. Key word, game play mechanic.

Vergil's after-images were also far more spread out and in far greater numbers than Dracula's:

That gameplay after image also took FOREVER to charge up. Context to what we just seen. He be dead in that charge up time.

Uh, no. The after images feats are from Devil May Cry 4. The clones are unique to the reboot version of Vergil. Here is the feat:

As you can see, the clones behave like actual clones. As in they persist in the world and can make take completely separate actions from Vergil. Besides, even if the Devil May Cry 4 feat did involve clones, it would mean Vergil can make a whole bunch of clones that are ALSO fast enough to make after-images. If you ask me, you'd be even worse off if that were the case.

Can you show me the Clones making after images or if they are as strong as Vergil himself? Thanks.

If that's not enough for you, he has other after image feats like this:

Those are anymore impressive than Spit Fire multiple after image blows that Dracula avoided and lol stomp her?

That specific attack was a flurry of cuts. Here he cuts long range, with no wait time:

Um, Vergil is sitting there and talking to this guy. There was ample time to prepare the dimension cutting attack. Hardly a heat of battle feat. As I said lol.

Also... Once again, gameplay is extremely slowed down for the player. Just because there is a noticeable pause from the player's perspective, does not mean the pause is noticeable in real time.

This is pure speculation and fan bias on your part. Show me a STATEMENT that this is the case than non canon gameplay mechanics as argument.

Sword on Sword

Okay, first off. The Ebony Blade has no dimensional cutting properties as far as I am aware. This by itself rendered blocking it an invalid feat.

Dimension cutting is completely separate from normal physical force. You cannot block it with conventional durability. You either have feats of resisting dimension/spatial attacks, or you don't.

I never mention dimension cutting nor did you. You simply said Vergil Sword would cut through Draculas, which is false as I showed Dimension cutting always takes time. Even Dante has to charge that shit up.

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As seen he cannot pull it off wily nilly, and it was only good for one slice. Hell, the wave had travel time to reach the block it caught in the background. No way is every sword swing a dimension cutting. Not in lore, statements, or feats.

Secondly, there are different grades of Adamantium. Unless you can prove Dracula's sword is as good as Wolverine's true adamantium, you cannot use it for scaling.

So even if it is secondary adamantium, its not physics breaking durable? It took Bannerless raging Hulk to break second Adamantium. Not seeing why Yammato non dimension cutting will.

Thirdly... Dude... Do you even look at your own scans?

Frankly speaking, it doesn't even look like the blades ever actually clashed with each other. If anything, it looks more like Dracula purposefully struck the handle of the blade, knowing full well that his sword would never stand up to the Ebony.

The part of the page that "maybe" indicates that the blades made contact is that middle panel where it looks like the blades "may have" clashed at the very base of the blades. However, Dracula was the one initiating the attack. Not the Black Knight. Even if we gave Drake the benefit of the doubt and assume the sword withstood actual contact; that does not prove that Dracula's sword would have withstood a direct slash from the Ebony blade.

Wow...

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I guess the drawn clash effect is just... accidentally drawn in there? I mean, do you re read what you write? Its sounds so desperate.

Also... Neither this scene nor the one against wolverine have the same energy aura effect shown when the Ebony Blade cut through Iron Man's armor.

The Ebony Blade has no energy arua shown by any other artist. So that was artist depiction more than anything. In Black Knights hand and other times use it simply cuts through shit. As it is stated too.

So no... I don't believe for a second that Dracula can block Yamato with his sword. Even if he could, do you really think you'll be "dominating the sword lockups" with these flying around (Do note the golden light, that'll be important in my following counters)?

I mean, you like to dismiss any argument I made as Jobbing, PIS, or whatever. So I guess I should not be surprise with this either.

Other Arguments

First off, I'd like to see evidence that the mist form can phase through a weapon that cuts the very fabric of space. Dimensional attacks such as those have always been a solid counter to intangibility based powers. Even Martial Manhunter has been cut by dimensional blades while trying to density phase.

Here is a idea, prove to me that Dimension cutting affects mist. I mean, the atmosphere and air with water molecules in it seem unaffected by the dimension cutting lmao.

Furthermore, demonic weaponry in Devil May Cry series have already shown to be capable of hitting intangible monsters:

https://youtu.be/X0pUaBo_ZhQ?t=52

Are you joking? Your showing Dante using gameplay mechanics as a rgument for Vergil dimension cutting. I mean.... uggghhh.... I cant even right now.

This includes Vergil's spectral swords, which are able to turn the Blood Goyles (they are literally made out of blood, allowing solid objects to pass through them) to stone:

Blood Ghouls also been killed by Lady's normal human weapons and shit :/ I mean, they have hit points. Alos when is Thicker Than Water Blood > Mist?

To make matters worse for you, Dracula has shown weakness to divinity and ultraviolet light. In fact, I recall a scene in which Dr Doom canceled Dracula's mist form using magic and ultra-violet light. It was right before he started bragging about being Dracula's "physical and mystical superior". I can't find the scan again, but since you're the Drake expert I am sure you know what I am referring to.

Yes, this is true. Now I have to ask why this matters here? Is Vergil using the original Holy Cross with Ultraviolet light?

There is also a seen of Dr Strange doing something similar, though I have to admit. I am a bit unclear on whether or not it was the light magic that rendered Drake tangible, or the illusion magic tied to it. That said, the Eye of Agamotto is known for weakening evil entities using light based attacks:

The Eye of Aggamotto is one of the most powerful magical artifacts in the Marvel Multiverse. Why bring it up?

The reboot version of Vergil is what's called a Nephilim. They wield the power of both demons and angels, which they are able to infuse into their weapons and attacks for various effects. Ironically enough, Dante relies on his demonic powers, whereas Vergil typically relies on his angelic abilities:

Dracula can barely handle people using make-shift crosses. What do you think spectral swords imbued with actual angelic energy is going to do to him? Especially with how powerful the swords can get, as seen from Hollow Vergil (which normal Vergil fully absorbs):

In fact, after absorbing his Hollow self, becomes powerful enough to blast light outwards in a large-scale AOE attack:

Even original Vergil has divine attacks, in his Beowulf gauntlets.

Ok, well few facts need addressing. One, divine does not equal Judeo-Christian faith that Dracula is weak too. Two, you have to believe in god and his awesomeness for it to work. Hardly the likes of Vergil.

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So unless Vergil believes and worships god, oh wait, he rules Hell lmao. Not working.

It's a video game. It's inevitable that a lot of feats are going to be told in game-play.

Well, how is this my problem? I just like to see legit feats via non mechanics is all.

Unless it's something that obviously contradicts the lore/narrative, such as normal humans surviving bullets due to a health-bar; gameplay feats are perfectly valid.

You showed just now Blood Ghouls with health bars drop by sword attacks and claim the swords can kill beings of water for that reason.

Opinion? I am not sure where there is to interpret. The effects of the swords are pretty damn clear as day:

A similar effect is shown in the Reboot, where charging the spectral blades with demonic energy (the red spectral blade as opposed to the more angelic blue and gold) gives Vergil a telekinetic grip on the object:

Ok, but how strong is the TK by feats then? Why would this work on Mist form? Is this being used during the summons, wethar, and lightning attacks going on? I see many counters.

Vergil uses a flurry of slashes as a basic part of his combo. Get hit by that flurry, and you're likely to get decapitated by sheer probability. Also, he doesn't need to know anything about Dracula to go for the head or heart. That's basic common sense against healing factors. Especially in Devil May Cry verse where heal factors are dime a dozen, and going for decapitation or stabs to the heart have always been more effective than just cutting them up.

So you have no feats of arms cut off and being regrown in seconds. No feats of someones head cut off and reattach. No feats of reforming body from dust and bones. Good to know.

Furthermore, magic weapons in Devil May Cry verse have shown to tax healing factors. The more powerful the weapon, the better it is at doing so. That's why Dante doesn't give a shit about getting stabbed or slashed by ordinary demons:

https://youtu.be/vJafPKap0VM?t=99

Yet, when Vergil and Dante slash or stab each other, they end up weak and vulnerable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09IpDe7V8ZE&t=321s

OMG, more fan speculation. Again, a statement this is true? Your using such hardcore fan logic and "head canon" to make a argument. Show me a statement that the weapons tax healing factors.

Add in divine powers from the reboot, or the holy light beowulf gauntlets, and it's really not looking good for Dracula.

Debunk this. Its not christian faith at all.

Telepathy

Look, we can argue all day speed, strength, dimension cutting attacks, whatever. However, at the end of the day Dracula still has one major tick that DMC universe has no answer for really. Telepathy. Marvel comics has some of the most OP telepathy attacks. Its so effective in DMC arguments, that its often used to shut down several Dante vs Sasuke or Dante vs Luke Skywalker battle threads lol. Its that damn useful of a argument. Something Dracula excels in.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

In a battle Dracula can use this in many ways. Scan 1 shows Dracula hypnotizing a woman to his will. Scan 2 has Dracula forcing a biker gang to kill themselves. Scan 3 he orders a mob to kill each other. Scan 4-5 is Dracula hypnotizing children to attack his enemies. Scan 6 shows Dracula resorting to hypnotism on a crowd of people to go crazy on each other in the middle of a fight with the Golden Angel.

Dracula uses Hypnostims often in fights, and does this with a stare. Even better is he affected beings of insane mental strength and psy ability.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Dracula can also use this ability on beings with powerful mental resistance. This includes depowering Shiklah in a fight in scan 1. Scan 2 and 3 has Dracula not once but twice mentally trick and hypnotize Dr Strange. Scan 4 is him making Silver Surfer who has Cosmic Awareness see illusions.

Dracula can bite Vergil and make him a slave. With just one bite.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Add to the Hypnotism, Dracula is able to mentally control any being he has personally bitten other than Blade and other vampires. This included characters like Storm and Asgardians like Sif. Even Wolverine and Apocalypse who have incredible mental resistance.

There is no argument of Vergil resisting what Dr Strange, Wolverine, Apacalypse, or Surfer could not. TP is a bitch, and Vergil has no way to counter its effects. Its a game changer in many ways and easily ends the fight. A tactic used by Dracula often in fights vs fodder or serious threats. GG

Closing Points

  • I still hold the speed advantage, no matter how much you deny it.

You really dont. No matter how much you try to wank the one Re Entry speed feat and I counter with dozen feats that say otherwise. More funny you have to scale everything from Dante. You shown things Dracula has done or match already himself. No one is faster than the other where it matters. That simple.

  • You have not proven that Dracula would utilize storms or summons in a direct confrontation. Especially against an opponent who can teleport right to him.

Teleport is useful and a ok counter. Though i never seen Vergil teleport attack Nightcrawler style. Ever. Its a one off attack here and there. Helps but not game changing.

  • You have not proven that Dracula's sword can block Yamato. Dracula has no information on Vergil and is unaware of Yamato's cutting ability. He's also unaware of the fact that it can cut further than the blade.

I can say the same. You have failed to show Yammato uses dimension cutting attacks on every swing or attack. Its takes time to stand there or use a flashy move to pull off. Dracula sword will compete fine in a battle.

  • In fact, he's also unaware of the mystical and divine properties of Vergil's attacks, and has no reason to be wary or cautious of any of them. Your mist form is countered by Vergil's divine magic attacks (again, a fact he is wholly unaware of).

And? You showed nothing bu speculation and head canon for arguments. Backed by gameplay mechanics more so than lore stated facts.

  • Victory by decapitation is a rather obvious vulnerability.

Yes, and yet Dracula can decapitate or simply de limb Vergil who has zero feats of regrowing such things. Only feats of being cut up and healing. Nothing for sure showing decapitation or de limbed.

  • Vergil's weapons have shown to be especially good at taxing healing factors.

Nice head canon and gameplay mechanics logic.

Also, you seem to have a tendency to exaggerate Dracula's feats. Like, you say he's "unfazed" when he looks incredibly injured, and you try to argue his ability to recover from heavy injury as some sort of durability feat even though his healing factor renders the level of injury near irrelevant.

I exaggerate feats? Ok, sure, still better than making up lies with head canon and speculation. Not backed by anything.

Other points to make is TP. Its GG from there with no counter. Unless you scale from Dante vs Nightmare or some shit, which is no way comparable to Strength, Surfer, Apoc, Wolverine ect mental resistance feats. No way comparable. This ends the game for sure unlike the Vergil's moves and hax that i so far made counters for. Its a interesting fight without TP, but with it, its clear Dracula wins. Vergil is not beating one of Marvels best team busters in their comics. GG mate.

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#31 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by deactivated-5b60e98a8eb99 (11593 posts) - - Show Bio

What's next, is Aunt May > Mundus, because she's a marvel character?

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#34 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

What's next, is Aunt May > Mundus, because she's a marvel character?

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lol

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#35 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio
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Telepathy/Hypnosis:

*Complains about speed being cancerous* ----> *Resorts to TP GG*

Don't worry, I don't blame you. In fact, I respect your efforts to try to win without resorting to such tactics. I must say though, the fact that I forced your hand in this way is awfully telling. Anyways, since this is basically your last ditch effort at pulling a hail mary, I figured I'd snuff out the argument first thing.

Dracula only has two methods of delivery in regards to his mental attacks. The first is extended eye contact and the second is through bite. Given the gaps in speed and Vergil's teleportation based fight style, the first is next to impossible and you may as well forget the second option entirely.

The second issue is that... Vergil actually does have mind resistance feats. Here he is placed under a powerful illusion by a fallen angel/embodiment of the sin of pride. This demon is known for being able to mind-screw people to a level in which they die or enter a vegetative state. Rather than succumb to the illusion, Vergil quite literally cut his way out of the illusion using Yamato:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Unless you scale from Dante vs Nightmare or some shit

No need. I got one better. Even the Hell Lord Mundus has trouble maintaining control over Vergil's mind:

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Not only is Mundus the one who created Nightmare in the first place, he's also an extremely powerful Hell-lord capable of creating an entire universe from scratch, as confirmed by Hideki Kamiya:

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Note, that this version of Vergil had had his memories stripped from him and was also without Yamato. Yet, the sheer emotional significance of seeing the pendant was able to allow him to begin struggling against the mind-control. Furthermore, if you recall the end of Devil May Cry 3; when Vergil confronted Mundus and was defeated/placed under his control; he was in a severely weakened state due to having just fought Dante.

Scan 2 and 3 has Dracula not once but twice mentally trick and hypnotize Dr Strange.

And yet later, not even an amped Dracula was capable of hypnotizing a severely weakened Dr Strange, due to Strange being aware of the ability and adjusting his resistances:

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Dracula has no other feats of using hypnosis on someone anywhere near Strange's power, and no feats of using hypnosis on someone who ALSO has eye based mind-control abilities:

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Scan 4 is him making Silver Surfer who has Cosmic Awareness see illusions.

Yea, see... I asked around, and as it turns out, you have been leaving out some pretty important context regarding your Silver Surfer feats. Thing is, Surfer was already under mind-control from a completely separate character. He was far from bringing his A game, his mind was clouded, and he fought like a "complete amateur".

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So yea, you been sitting there accusing me of trying to bullshit you when you've been the one bullshitting me this whole time.

Dracula is able to mentally control any being he has personally bitten other than Blade and other vampires. This included characters like Storm and Asgardians like Sif.

If he can't use this method to control vampires, what makes you think it would work on demons? Also, the Sif feat is another thing with context that you conveniently left out. While it's true he was able to control her, her divine blood both left him weak and allowed her to break free of his control later in the issue:

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It may have taken while for Sif to break free and Dracula to be weakened, but she's merely an Aesir. Reboot Vergil has the divine powers of an actual Judeo-Christian angelic being.

Strength/Durability:

Thats a decent feat in the Spider Man area like Dracula. Cool.

lol since when can Spiderman kick giant monsters so hard they get ripped in half? Let alone giant monsters strong enough to smash through stone ceilings:

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Very meh to Dracula's high ends.

Yea? Well what about dropping from the sky and slamming into the ground hard enough to cause the building to being collapsing (stone pillars and all)?

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Note, that tiny nail looking thing? That's actually a sizeable platform:

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Then we also have scaling from DMC Dante who can pull landmasses together and even punch hard enough to do this:

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So your best argument is again resorting to use Dante feats as Vergils. Poor debating there.

Dude... They are twins. Ever single fight they have had, they have been portrayed as similar in stats. They are even flat out stated to be EQUAL in power!

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How much more evidence could you possibly need? At this point, you are just nitpicking.

Speed/Skill:

Multiple showings of his skill in human form with injuries against people trying to kill him. None of his Vampire powers, just relying on his human skill.

Right... Call me when Dracula can do something comparable to this:

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Or this:

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Fact of the matter is, both of those feats are well beyond anything you have shown despite your insistence that they are of the "same speed". So either Dracula is as fast as Vergil, but lacks the same degree of skill and coordination; or he is as skilled as Vergil, but lacks the raw speed/stats.

Or maybe... he's just flat out beaten in both categories. Personally, I think it's the latter.

This is pretty much same lightning speed as these feats.

Uh, no. We know the lightning in those feats are slower than what Dante and Vergil have to deal with, because characters who are significantly slower than Dante & Vergil are able to react to it. Just like we know Dracula's lightning is slower than what Dante and Vergil have had to deal with, because the significantly slower Nightcrawler is able to react to it.

I only threw the feat out there against the wank that Dante and Vergil are lightning timers or lightspeed even as some people wank.

Without anything to indicate that Dracula even dodged the lightning, it completely fails to serve as a proper comparison...

As for the Blade comment, Blade is super fast depending on whose writing him. He has blitz Deadpool, and speed wise matched Morbius and Spider Man lol.

Those are street level speeds! We are dealing with mid tiers! Spiderman is NOT fast by these standards!

Gravity is a factor lmao. The pulling force to the earth is always greater help than moving at high speeds away from earth. Basic physics.

Yea, and it accounts for an increase in speed of about 200 miles per hour at best (out of a total of mach 20+), because that's when terminal velocity kicks in. "Basic physics".

Uh huh. He had so much running space. The feat and game itself lasts dozens of seconds.

Dozens of seconds... from the players point of view!

No more valid than Dracula dodging lightning

You can't even prove that Dracula dodged the lightning and how is running at obviously re-entry levels not a valid feat?

I just think its false to use this speed as proof when Dracula reacted fine to a character who sets the air on fire from her own speed.

The same character who got her ass kicked by Blade. The same character you admit, doesn't typically use her speed to the best of it's abilities.

Um this is like nothing to do with physics and more art/magic whatever. I mean, the sword is not traveling a straight line. Its hovering in mid air. Clearly not in align with physics.

It's hovering because he has a telekinetic connection to the weapons he's using. It's spin speed is causing a vacuum that can suck monsters in.

Round TripB t/Bx y (hold then release)Hurl Force Edge at an enemy. It will create an whirlwind of vacuum that sucks the enemy in while carving them up.
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Wow. Add to this, throwing a object = combat speed? Sure....

Uh, yea. That's how physics works. When you throw an object, you are literally transferring your speed into the object. A thrown object cannot be faster than the hand throwing it. Even if that speed is done with telekinesis, it would still mean he's capable of swinging his blade with similar speeds.

Or they are bullshit lmao. Dante here with his Mach 20 speed could not dodge the gun fire of Lady

Wow, the lowballing. Dante never fights seriously against Lady because she literally can't kill him. Or even incapacitate him. Yea, he gets a little annoyed when she shoots him, but he was obviously not fighting seriously or even trying particularly hard to dodge. Hell, even a severely weakened Vergil managed to completely school her while fighting Dante at the same time:

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And yes, they were severely weakened, because their weapons tax their strength and healing factors:

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Show me another DMC3 or DMC1 feat that matches Mach 20+. Just one more. I'll wait.

The mach 20+ is maximum run-speed. The feat is there to show the full extent of the speeds Dante and Vergil are capable of reaching, and shows that hypersonic+ ranges of combat speed should easily be within their ranges. Vergil doesn't need Mach 20 combat speed speed to outpace Dracula, he only needs hypersonic+ speeds.

This feat alone is consistent with hypersonic+ ranges:

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As for other hypersonic feats. Well, a partially awakened Dante from the prequel series was able to do this:

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Hell, even Devil May Cry 1 Dante was explicitly stated to be capable of moving at lightning speed:

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And that's BEFORE absorbing Sparda's power and taking on Mundus:

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Notice the stars moving in the background? Yea, that's REALLY FRIGGEN FAST! They even ended up on a planet, despite no planet being in sight when they first started flying.

The Actual Battle:

Dont forget Vergil as per first Dante game as Nelo Angelo who Dante stomped as well. Man, a non DMC fan correcting a fan...

I can't believe you left that in, despite me bringing up Nelo Angelo in the very next line... -_-

Dante still drove Vergil off as Nelo Angelo every fight too. Dante is better in their bouts and feats.

Dante got stomped by Nelo Angelo in the first fight. The only reason Nelo Angelo fled was because he started to rebel against Mundus's control due to seeing Dante's pendant.

Nelo Angelo did lose the following two fights, however once again there is tons of context you are ignoring. Dante didn't start out more powerful than Nelo Angelo, he worked his way up the same way he did in Devil May Cry 3; by collecting a variety of amps and weapons from various demons encountered throughout the story.

Furthermore, Nelo Angelo =/= Vergil. Yes, they are technically the same character. However, they have very different fight styles. Nelo Angelo is slow, clunky, and lacks the finesse of Vergil's fight style. He was also missing Yamato, his most powerful weapon, and much of his memories as Vergil (which means he also lacked Vergil's skill).

To top it off, he was also struggling with MIND CONTROL. You know, exactly like Silver Surfer, the character you keep trying to hype feats off of (You know, the one who was explicitly questioning why he "attacked so sluggishly"):

http://readcomicbooksonline.net/reader/Tomb_Of_Dracula_1972/Tomb_Of_Dracula_1972_Issue_50/13

So basically you have no feats of him with them really. Just a few second gif. Nice.

The point is that he can control demons with a mere glance.

Yet he used Summons in several fights out of couple dozen total. Its in character and a factor. I love how you just want to ignor what Dracula has shown to do in fights and make this some simple sword fight. Kinda bad form of ya.

He didn't open with it in either of the fights you showed. In both the Thor fight and the SS fight, he had to make distance first. Something that's hard to do against a faster, teleporting opponent. This isn't an extended slug fest. This is a sword fight against an opponent who can dice you to ribbons in an instant. Not unlike what happened here:

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Show me a STATEMENT that this is the case than non canon gameplay mechanics as argument.

There were no gameplay mechanics shown. What are you talking about? Sometimes I feel like you are just making bullshit claims and hoping the voters take your word for it.

Dante canonically allows random demons to dice and impale him (one blade even going straight through his heart), and suffers no ill effects:

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Yet he was in extreme pain from a single stab to the abdomen from Yamato:

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Then fully incapacitated after getting impaled through the heart with Rebellion:

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It's as simple as that.

Um, Vergil is sitting there and talking to this guy. There was ample time to prepare the dimension cutting attack.

He didn't prepare it though. He drew his blade and performed the slash... -_-

I never mention dimension cutting nor did you. You simply said Vergil Sword would cut through Draculas

Uh yes... yes I did. This was my very first post, which you were responding to; "Unless Dracula's sword has feats of clashing with dimension cleaving weapons, it will be incapable of stopping an attack from Vergil."

As seen he cannot pull it off wily nilly, and it was only good for one slice. Hell, the wave had travel time to reach the block it caught in the background. No way is every sword swing a dimension cutting.

Not seeing any charge time in that gif and the distance it reached in that time-frame is quite impressive... In any case, even if there were some sort of charge time, it's not like Dracula can take advantage of it when Vergil is covered in swirling spectral blades and is teleporting all over the map.

It took Bannerless raging Hulk to break second Adamantium. Not seeing why Yammato non dimension cutting will.

Because conventional durability has nothing to do with resistance to dimensional/spatial attacks.

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I guess the drawn clash effect is just... accidentally drawn in there? I mean, do you re read what you write? Its sounds so desperate.

Yes, it is there, but is he striking the blade or the cross-guard? I also love how you ignored every other part of the post. Again, Dracula initiated that clash. There's no proof the sword would be able to withstand a slash from the Ebony if Drake were the one blocking.

Here is a idea, prove to me that Dimension cutting affects mist. I mean, the atmosphere and air with water molecules in it seem unaffected by the dimension cutting lmao.

Oh, you took a look at the atoms in the air did you? I mean, come on man... Are you serious with this?

It cuts the very fabric of space (something that in itself is already intangible under normal circumstances). Logically that includes all of the molecules taking up said space.

Furthermore, when Vergil does his flurry of slashes, you can visibly see the atmosphere getting distorted:

https://youtu.be/GF7d_W_AUiw?t=97

Your showing Dante using gameplay mechanics as a rgument for Vergil dimension cutting.

How in the hell is that gameplay mechanics?!?!?!?

They are intangible. They move through walls. Dante and Vergil can cut them anyways!

So you dont like the feat, you disregard it. Wish I can do the same for Vergil I guess.

Oh please, dismissing feats because you don't like them is EXACTLY what you have been doing! Every feat "it's just gameplay mechanics". It's a cut scene? Well then it's just bullshit because I said so!

Well, how is this my problem? I just like to see legit feats via non mechanics is all.

It's your problem because it's downright unreasonable. It's like reading a novel and demanding visual feats. Just because the feat is in gameplay does not make it "non-legit". These are actual, quantifiable feats, that give the player an idea of what the characters are capable of. If you can't deal with that, then you shouldn't be debating for or against video game characters.

You showed just now Blood Ghouls with health bars drop by sword attacks and claim the swords can kill beings of water for that reason.

No... I showed bloodgoyles who CANNOT be dropped by sword attacks, getting reduced to stone via Vergil's projectile magic.

So you have no feats of arms cut off and being regrown in seconds. No feats of someones head cut off and reattach.

Dude... Literally the very FIRST FRIGGEN FEAT I showed, in regards to regen, was Vergil getting cut in half, and healing so fast that his body stayed completely attached:

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And even weaker demons have stayed alive with literally just a mouth.

Yes, this is true. Now I have to ask why this matters here? Is Vergil using the original Holy Cross with Ultraviolet light?

No. Instead he has the powers of an actual angel, and wields a sword powerful enough to separate Earth from the demon world.

One, divine does not equal Judeo-Christian faith that Dracula is weak too.

No, but being part actual Judeo-Christian angel does.

Two, you have to believe in god and his awesomeness for it to work. Hardly the likes of Vergil.

Oh, so Dr Doom is a devout Christian now, is he? What about Thor?

As many said, Thor should win a majority. However this is mostly due to the hammer having anti Vampire properties. The context of the Thor vs Dracula fight involves two key things in Dracula's lost. 1) is the fact the hammer is consider "holy" to Vampires. 2) the fact that Sif's blood harmed Dracula. When he first drank her blood, he felt more immortal than ever, but the blood was quickly rejected and left Dracula in a more weaken state while fighting Thor.

---- Your Words

Blood Ghouls also been killed by Lady's normal human weapons and shit :/ I mean, they have hit points

I don't remember Lady ever encountering the blood goyles. If you are referring to her rocket launcher, that's not just a physical attack it's a rocket that causes a firey explosion. As in it super heats the molecules in the air. Kind of like lightning.

Teleport is useful and a ok counter. Though i never seen Vergil teleport attack Nightcrawler style. Ever.

He does it here:

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And Here:

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And that's not counting all the times he's done it in actual boss fights or how many combos involve doing so when you play as him.

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Summary:

  • You accuse me of bullshitting you, when you leave out important context like Silver Surfer being weakened due to mind control and Dr Strange being able to counter the hypnotism despite being severely weakened.
  • You complain about me using "outlier feats", yet your only decent showings seem to be scaling off of heralds and teambusters who don't seem to be operating anywhere near their full capabilities.
  • Your mist form still gets countered by Vergil's divine powers.
  • Vergil has more than enough mind-resistance feats to counter your hypnotism.
  • No matter how much you insist that Dracula is as fast, it will never be true. I have shown tons and tons of feats that far surpass anything Dracula has shown.
  • I sort of started rushing towards the end. I have probably forgotten to respond to things here and there, but I think that just about covers all the important stuff.
  • Also, it's pretty funny how you keep saying that the rain and bullet feats are the best Vergil's got, when none of Dracula's feats even measure up to them. Not only that, but Vergil performed those feats WITHOUT using Devil Trigger, so lore wise, those aren't even his top speeds.
  • Oh, and this whole mentality where nothing can be accepted unless the story spoon feeds it to you, is extremely anal and short sighted.

Anyways, @sirfizzwhizz I am ready to go to voting if you are.

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#36 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: You going to switch the OP to voting, or do you need another post?

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#37 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: You going to switch the OP to voting, or do you need another post?

I work 12 hour shifts, I get to it when I can.

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#39 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:

@sirfizzwhizz: You going to switch the OP to voting, or do you need another post?

I work 12 hour shifts, I get to it when I can.

That's fine, I was just making sure it was okay to start tagging people.

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#42 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: yeah tag away. I change the title too.

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#43 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by HeroUp2112 (18162 posts) - - Show Bio

Lemme wade through all this.

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#45 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: lol what was with that "pick your poison with a twist" thread? Did your account get hacked or are you trying to get a permaban?

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#46 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: lol what was with that "pick your poison with a twist" thread? Did your account get hacked or are you trying to get a permaban?

Link?

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#47 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31453 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: It got deleted because of what was in the OP. If you don't know what I am talking about, you might want to ask a mod and/or change passwords.

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#48 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:

@sirfizzwhizz: It got deleted because of what was in the OP. If you don't know what I am talking about, you might want to ask a mod and/or change passwords.

I deleted recently a with a twist thread, it never had anyone sign up for it, so I drop it for the PYP 6.0. Shade bump it, and I deleted it due to being over a month old.

So what are you talking about the Op being perma ban worthy or something?

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#49 Posted by deactivated-5ab47f6017f34 (3189 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@shade555 said:

You bumped the dropped sign up thread for PYP With a Twist, and I deleted it. Now Zets is asking something about the thread trolling or me trying to get perma ban. Not sure what he is referring to.