CAV: Martian Manhunter (Hellespont) vs Spartan (Comic_book_fan)

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Hellespont

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#1  Edited By Hellespont

Challenge A Viner

This is a debate between CBF and I, not a standard battle forum thread. Opinions should be kept to yourself until voting. If you would like to vote (based on the debate and character representation, not your personal opinion), just let me know and you will be tagged. Enjoy!

Martian Manhunter

Represented by Hellespont.
Represented by Hellespont.

VERSUS

Spartan

Represented by Comic_book_fan.
Represented by Comic_book_fan.

Rules of Engagement

  • The battle will take place on an indestructible earth, with no civilians.
  • Both characters are morals on, however they are fighting seriously. No jobbing.
  • Martian Manhunter is composite (excluding Pre-Crisis of course).
  • Win by death or knockout.

Tags

T4V:

  • StormShadow_x
  • Amendment50
  • Superman19
  • LogicLancer
  • Destinyman75
  • Au_141

TAEP:

  • Lan_Fan
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Hellespont

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StormShadow_X

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comic_book_fan

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@hellespont: yeah this will work you want to make your case first or should i go first.

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Amendment50

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#5 Amendment50  Online

T4V please

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Hellespont

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comic_book_fan

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comic_book_fan

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#8  Edited By comic_book_fan
No Caption Provided

Spartan was born Yon (or Yohn) Kohl, a flesh and blood Kherubim and member of the Pantheon Class on Khera. Growing up like most of the Pantheon, Yon was trained to be a warrior from birth. The creatures he learned to fight against were the Daemonites, his races sworn enemy. He became a war lord that was so respected that his body was used as the template for the Spartan Guards (see Kherubim Technology). Some thousands of years ago, Yon was aboard a Kherubim vessel that found itself locked in battle with a Daemonite ship in the space above Earth. The ships battled fiercely and both were damaged and crashed to the planet. Over the next thousands of years, the Kherubim-Daemonite war continued, but both sides began to blend in with the humans that surrounded them (Kherubim looked human and Daemonites could shape shift and steal bodies) and their battles became less and less visible.

In the 1930's Yon Kohl changed his name to John Colt and began a career as an adventurer and an American Hero. His abilities weren't as great as some other Kherubim on Earth (like Mr. Majestic) so many believed he was just a normal man, his abilities no more than anyone could acquire if they trained, persevered, believed in themselves, and believed in the nation. He was major John Colt, a normal American serving his country. He was a super patriot, the Captain America of the Wildstorm Universe. Because of this, he was chosen to be a member of a special team built to stop an alien menace.

ok now that we know who he is lets talk about what he can do.

strength

the later versions of spartan was at least comparable here if not stronger

caitlin fairchild some who can trade blows with Apollo hits him dead center with her best shot and he doesn't budge
caitlin fairchild some who can trade blows with Apollo hits him dead center with her best shot and he doesn't budge

he then sends he flying unconscious in one shot.
he then sends he flying unconscious in one shot.

manhunter's telepathy is useless here.

spartan is immune to telepathy in fact he can attack powerful telepaths with a violent feedback  manhunters going to probably want to stay out.                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i not going to make a case for a win yet just starting you can go now that you know a little something about him
spartan is immune to telepathy in fact he can attack powerful telepaths with a violent feedback manhunters going to probably want to stay out. i not going to make a case for a win yet just starting you can go now that you know a little something about him

h

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Superman19

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This gon be good

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LogicLancer

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Hellespont

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#15  Edited By Hellespont

J'onn J'onzz: The Martian Manhunter

An absolute badass.
An absolute badass.

J'onn J'onzz. The sole survivor of a cataclysmic event which eradicated all life on his home world, Mars. Upon being brought to earth by scientist Dr. Saul Erdel, Martian Manhunter has used the incredible powers of the Martian species to aid mankind in it's struggle against evil and become one of the earth's mightiest heroes.

Kept the obligatory info dump to a minimum since I am confident everyone reading is familiar with the Martian on some level. Hopefully that's cool. Plus with that out of the way, we can get right into discussing Martian Manhunter's varied power-set. Powers which include (but are not limited to):

  • Enhanced strength, speed, and durability: The standard assortment of physical powers every high-tier character needs. The degree to which J'onn wields this powers however, is anything but standard. His physical might has been stated to rival that of Superman, and he has the feats to back it up.
  • Flight: Of course.
  • Martian vision: Heat vision for martians.
  • Telepathy: J'onn is one of the most proficient mentalists in the D.C. Universe hands down. He can do everything from briefly scan to completely take over an enemies mind.
  • Telekinesis: To a very minor extent, but still worth noting.
  • Control over his own molecular structure: Now this is where Martian Manhunter truly becomes more than just a Superman clone. Essentially, martians have complete control over the molecules of their own bodies, which manifests in a plethora of additional powers... Such as...
    • Shape-shifting: Form changing into everything from a regular human to grotesque alien creatures.
    • Invisibility: Completely undetectable.
    • Phasing: The ability to become completely intangible and move through solid matter.
    • Healing: An extremely underrated healing factor, that at times is depicted as so potent it would give Wolverine a run for his money.

Quite the impressive array of powers I would say. While I know Spartan is a Swiss army knife in his own right, I think you will be hard pressed to prove he is more versatile than Martian Manhunter.

The Battle Begins

Alright man, my plan of attack is going to be highly complex, so stay with me..........

A physical and mental assault. Simple, yet effective.
A physical and mental assault. Simple, yet effective.

I. Stat's comparison

In doing some preliminary research and reading your opener, I can already say with confidence that Spartan is going to struggle against J'onn's sheer physical might. I'll start by noting that the only feats in your opener are supported by stating that Fairchild can tangle with Apollo. Well unfortunately Apollo has already been shown to be astronomically inferior to Martian Manhunter in Stormwatch #1. Here J'onn completely clowns Apollo, no-selling his strongest blows.

No Caption Provided

So I don't think citing someone on par with Apollo is going to prove Spartan is quote: "comparable if not stronger." Now looking a little deeper than what you've presented, I found in Comicvine's wiki page that through a series of enhancements and training, Spartan was capable of achieving strength in the "upper 100 ton marker." Impressive. However, J'onn's strength is effortlessly in excess of 100 tons. In fact, at peak performance, his strength exceeds that of even 100 million tons. Allow me to demonstrate.

In Action Comics #34 Martian Manhunter and Superman catch Brainiac's ship (significantly larger than the earth) which was moving at 36,000mph and dead stop it. Even if we assume Martian Manhunter was only doing a third of the work (which is underselling J'onn by quite a bit) this is a planetary strength feat. The likes of which I HIGHLY doubt Spartan could even come close to replicating.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

We'll get into applications of this strength as the debate progress. For now, this should be more than sufficient to show J'onn's physicality far surpasses Spartan's.

II. Speed blitz

Now let's talk super speed. Perhaps Martian Manhunter's most underappreciated power. Despite how highly the Vine regards super speed, I have never seen the argument made that Martian Manhunter blitzes anybody. And that is a shame, because frankly, J'onn is packing speedster level feats. Seriously. For example, Martian Manhunter Special #1 where J'onn travels innumerable light years just because he needed some time off.

No Caption Provided

As you know, to travel a single light year in one year constitutes light-speed travel. In this case, this journey took significantly less than a year and he traveled significantly more than a light year. Now it is impossible to calculate exact speeds from this, but logically it is clear J'onn is sporting FTL to potentially MFTL flight speeds.

If you wan't some scans that are a bit more concrete than narrator statements, here's a time Martian Manhunter teamed up with the notoriously fast Wally West (JLA Classified #44). In between the first and last panel of page one, J'onn KO's Weather Wizard, takes him to the police station, and comes back in time to catch the Flash midair. Note that the four panels Martian Manhunter did all of this was an incredibly short amount of time, because during those four panels Wally was moving at lightspeed. In fact, Wally even states "that was fast."

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And just for good measure here's some scans from Madame Xanadu #21 where Martian Manhunter (as John Jones) outraces a mid-teleportation Xanadu to a location. As you can see this was done casually.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

What this means for Spartan, is that he is going to have no room to breathe. J'onn is going to be closing distances on him instantaneously. Perhaps even ending this battle before Spartan can react by flying at him at superluminal speeds with a flurry of punches. This is a tactic J'onn has used to great effect against the White Martians in JLA #57.Here J'onn levels multiple towers across the globe and comes to the aid of Kyle Rayner, speedblitzing four White Martians, all within a single instant.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The second page is particularly noteworthy, because every individual White Martian is a high-tier in it's own right. This is evident in the page prior, where Kyle Rayner was overwhelmed by the group of them, and at the bottom of the page Superman has his hands full with just one. (These were cut out in order to appease the scan rule, but I can post the missing panels if need be).

To further exacerbate this point, here's a mini White Martian respect thread:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  1. White Martian named Primiad of Hyperclan blitzes Superman from 100 miles out.
  2. White Martians blitz Superman (again) and Kyle Rayner.
  3. White Martians overrun nearly every hero on D.C. Earth.

They are not to be messed with and have lightspeed capabilities.

As you can see, the White Martians are genuine powerhouses, turned into canon fodder by Martian Manhunter's speed blitz. I foresee the same thing happening to Spartan.

III. Defenses

There is a lot to touch on here, so I will keep explanations brief.

1) I am not sure how you plan on countering phasing here. Since it is Martian Mahunter's go to defensive option I am assuming you have something up your sleeve, so I won't go too deep here. But just in case your counter is using energy projection...

No Caption Provided

2) Shape shifting. Similar to Reed Richards or Plastic Man, Martian Manhunter can make his body highly malleable and resistant to physical attacks. Which only enhances his already astounding natural durability.

3) Invisibility. Not very commonly used, but should J'onn choose to go invisible he should be undetectable by Spartan. Serving as a defensive and offensive tool.

4) Healing Factor. Should Spartan manage to land a mortal wound (which is doubtful considering everything shown above), J'onn can fall back on his healing factor. Which is potent enough to make Wolverine jealous. Exhibit A, JLA Classified #3 where he fully reforms from a splat on the wall, while his powers were dampened due to nearby fire:

No Caption Provided

And this is all on top of Martian Manhunter's top tier durability.....

IV. Telepathy

This is what everyone has been waiting for. While it has been fun showcasing his hand to hand prowess, a Martian Manhunter debate is incomplete without discussing mental warfare. So here it is.

In your opener, you provided a scan of Spartan resisting the telepathy of unnamed character. This is insufficient given the degree of telepathy your dealing with here. Martian Manhunter is one of the most prominent telepaths in comics for a reason. Here's some instances of Martian Manhunter scanning every mind on earth:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And even beyond that, here's some instances of Martian Manhunter telepathically assaulting upper echelon beings and characters with high TP resistance:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7
I'm sorry but the scan rule is going to have to suck it....... I really don't want to crop all of these images...
  1. JLA 35: Forces his way into the Spectre's mind and brings him to the astral plane.
  2. JLA 50: Reads Dr. Destiny's mind. Dr Destiny is reality-warper capable of creating alternate realities and warping the entire earth.
  3. JLA 40: Breaks through Maggedon's mental defenses to reach Superman. Maggedon is a high level telepath himself, who has stomped Hector Hammond and TP'd entire planets from light-years away.
  4. Green Lantern Corpse 5: Erases the memories of multiple Green Lanterns. Remember, GLs are also "immune to telepathy".
  5. JLA 51: Destroys Joseph Stinton's mind with illusions and telepathy. Joseph Stinton was granted vast reality warping powers by 6th dimensional beings at this point in time.
  6. JLA 56: Uses his telepathy to keep Vishnu asleep, who if awoken had enough power to destroy the entire universe.
  7. Justice League 20: Defeats Despero in a telepathic battle. Despero is capable of TPing the entire league.

That's an absolutely absurd resume if you ask me....... But perhaps the most directly applicable feat is of Martian Manhunter laying a telepathic smack-down on a group in Blackest Night #8.

Note: This is Black Lantern MMH, however BL Rings do not enhance pre-existing superpowers. So this feat still applies to regular J'onn.
Note: This is Black Lantern MMH, however BL Rings do not enhance pre-existing superpowers. So this feat still applies to regular J'onn.

The reason this is of particular interest, is that Larfleeze is among the characters being affected. Larfleeze has telepathic defenses that are incredibly similar to Spartan's in that not only does he block telepathy, but he sends a recoil affect back at the attacker. This was demonstrated when the god Dyrge entered Larfleeze's mind and was destroyed by mental constructs. Yet in this instance, due to Martian Manhunter's proficiency, he is met with no such resistance. Which is what I suspect would happen if he attacked Spartan's mind.

TL;DR / Summary

  • While Spartan is versatile, Martian Manhunter is more so. His list of powers is both more expansive and more useful.
  • Martian Mahunter is out of Spartan's weight class in terms of strength, speed, and durability.
  • Thus far, you don't have reliable counters for the array of options M.M.H. posses; i.e. intangibility, invisibility, form changing, etc.
  • Telepathy should still be viable, given J'onn's track record.

@comic_book_fan I'm not gonna lie my friend, I think you may have bitten off more than you can chew here. Martian Mahunter is one tough customer, and in my research (albeit limited) Spartan doesn't seem up to par. However, I respect your skills as a debater and am looking forward to see how you attempt to prove me wrong! Good luck bro, you'll need it ;)

No Caption Provided

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comic_book_fan

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@hellespont: ok no am not beat yet i do have something for phasing it may not work but it's worth entertaining.

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Hellespont

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@comic_book_fan: I’m excited to see it bro. Also, I’m gonna edit tonight/ tomorrow for grammar, but the content of my post will remain exactly the same. So feel free to start making your response even tho you might get tagged again because I edited a typo.

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LogicLancer

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@hellespont: Tagged for votes only. Not every post. I'm cool with it though.

BTW: Great Post. Are you new here? Whether or not you are, you did a great job.

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Hellespont

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@logiclancer: I used to have an account years ago, but got busy with life and school etc. But I just graduated high school and have found the time to reignite my love of comics, so I figured i’d rejoin.

And thanks! I appreciate the praise. It was a ton of fun to make.

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Lan_Fan

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TAEP.

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comic_book_fan

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#21  Edited By comic_book_fan
@hellespont said:

J'onn J'onzz: The Martian Manhunter

An absolute badass.
An absolute badass.

J'onn J'onzz. The sole survivor of a cataclysmic event which eradicated all life on his home world, Mars. Upon being brought to earth by scientist Dr. Saul Erdel, Martian Manhunter has used the incredible powers of the Martian species to aid mankind in it's struggle against evil and become one of the earth's mightiest heroes.

Kept the obligatory info dump to a minimum since I am confident everyone reading is familiar with the Martian on some level. Hopefully that's cool. Plus with that out of the way, we can get right into discussing Martian Manhunter's varied power-set. Powers which include (but are not limited to):

  • Enhanced strength, speed, and durability: The standard assortment of physical powers every high-tier character needs. The degree to which J'onn wields this powers however, is anything but standard. His physical might has been stated to rival that of Superman, and he has the feats to back it up.
  • Flight: Of course.
  • Martian vision: Heat vision for martians.
  • Telepathy: J'onn is one of the most proficient mentalists in the D.C. Universe hands down. He can do everything from briefly scan to completely take over an enemies mind.
  • Telekinesis: To a very minor extent, but still worth noting.
  • Control over his own molecular structure: Now this is where Martian Manhunter truly becomes more than just a Superman clone. Essentially, martians have complete control over the molecules of their own bodies, which manifests in a plethora of additional powers... Such as...
    • Shape-shifting: Form changing into everything from a regular human to grotesque alien creatures.
    • Invisibility: Completely undetectable.
    • Phasing: The ability to become completely intangible and move through solid matter.
    • Healing: An extremely underrated healing factor, that at times is depicted as so potent it would give Wolverine a run for his money.

Quite the impressive array of powers I would say. While I know Spartan is a Swiss army knife in his own right, I think you will be hard pressed to prove he is more versatile than Martian Manhunter.

The Battle Begins

Alright man, my plan of attack is going to be highly complex, so stay with me..........

A physical and mental assault. Simple, yet effective.
A physical and mental assault. Simple, yet effective.

I. Stat's comparison

In doing some preliminary research and reading your opener, I can already say with confidence that Spartan is going to struggle against J'onn's sheer physical might. I'll start by noting that the only feats in your opener are supported by stating that Fairchild can tangle with Apollo. Well unfortunately Apollo has already been shown to be astronomically inferior to Martian Manhunter in Stormwatch #1. Here J'onn completely clowns Apollo, no-selling his strongest blows.

No Caption Provided

So I don't think citing someone on par with Apollo is going to prove Spartan is quote: "comparable if not stronger."

thats a different version of apollo the apollo catlin fought was much stronger

caitlin was in the dc new 52 and she was comparable to supergirl so either way caitlin is comparable but lets say he isn't strong enough for you

No Caption Provided

spartan sends majestic crashing through a building in case you don't know who majestic is is picture superman raised by klingons with telepathy and mild reality warping powers
spartan sends majestic crashing through a building in case you don't know who majestic is is picture superman raised by klingons with telepathy and mild reality warping powers

Now looking a little deeper than what you've presented, I found in Comicvine's wiki page that through a series of enhancements and training, Spartan was capable of achieving strength in the "upper 100 ton marker." Impressive. However, J'onn's strength is effortlessly in excess of 100 tons. In fact, at peak performance, his strength exceeds that of even 100 million tons. Allow me to demonstrate.

In Action Comics #34 Martian Manhunter and Superman catch Brainiac's ship (significantly larger than the earth) which was moving at 36,000mph and dead stop it. Even if we assume Martian Manhunter was only doing a third of the work (which is underselling J'onn by quite a bit) this is a planetary strength feat. The likes of which I HIGHLY doubt Spartan could even come close to replicating.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

We'll get into applications of this strength as the debate progress. For now, this should be more than sufficient to show J'onn's physicality far surpasses Spartan's.

II. Speed blitz

Now let's talk super speed. Perhaps Martian Manhunter's most underappreciated power. Despite how highly the Vine regards super speed, I have never seen the argument made that Martian Manhunter blitzes anybody. And that is a shame, because frankly, J'onn is packing speedster level feats. Seriously. For example, Martian Manhunter Special #1 where J'onn travels innumerable light years just because he needed some time off.

No Caption Provided

As you know, to travel a single light year in one year constitutes light-speed travel. In this case, this journey took significantly less than a year and he traveled significantly more than a light year. Now it is impossible to calculate exact speeds from this, but logically it is clear J'onn is sporting FTL to potentially MFTL flight speeds.

If you wan't some scans that are a bit more concrete than narrator statements, here's a time Martian Manhunter teamed up with the notoriously fast Wally West (JLA Classified #44). In between the first and last panel of page one, J'onn KO's Weather Wizard, takes him to the police station, and comes back in time to catch the Flash midair. Note that the four panels Martian Manhunter did all of this was an incredibly short amount of time, because during those four panels Wally was moving at lightspeed. In fact, Wally even states "that was fast."

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And just for good measure here's some scans from Madame Xanadu #21 where Martian Manhunter (as John Jones) outraces a mid-teleportation Xanadu to a location. As you can see this was done casually.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

What this means for Spartan, is that he is going to have no room to breathe. J'onn is going to be closing distances on him instantaneously. Perhaps even ending this battle before Spartan can react by flying at him at superluminal speeds with a flurry of punches. This is a tactic J'onn has used to great effect against the White Martians in JLA #57.Here J'onn levels multiple towers across the globe and comes to the aid of Kyle Rayner, speedblitzing four White Martians, all within a single instant.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The second page is particularly noteworthy, because every individual White Martian is a high-tier in it's own right. This is evident in the page prior, where Kyle Rayner was overwhelmed by the group of them, and at the bottom of the page Superman has his hands full with just one. (These were cut out in order to appease the scan rule, but I can post the missing panels if need be).

To further exacerbate this point, here's a mini White Martian respect thread:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  1. White Martian named Primiad of Hyperclan blitzes Superman from 100 miles out.
  2. White Martians blitz Superman (again) and Kyle Rayner.
  3. White Martians overrun nearly every hero on D.C. Earth.

They are not to be messed with and have lightspeed capabilities.

As you can see, the White Martians are genuine powerhouses, turned into canon fodder by Martian Manhunter's speed blitz. I foresee the same thing happening to Spartan.

spartan will see the attack coming minutes before it's launched giving his light speed processing speed plenty of time to counter
spartan will see the attack coming minutes before it's launched giving his light speed processing speed plenty of time to counter
they are so close to each other it is doubtful in character manhunter is going to go beyond light speed so spartan's first gen processor should still keep up but this was spartan made of 5000 year old scrap from there ship he was outdated your fighting a spartan thousands of times more advanced than he was hear
they are so close to each other it is doubtful in character manhunter is going to go beyond light speed so spartan's first gen processor should still keep up but this was spartan made of 5000 year old scrap from there ship he was outdated your fighting a spartan thousands of times more advanced than he was hear

even if manhunter gets to him spatan can take a beating

ere he gets a dose of heatvison comparablehto superman then gets punhched into the stadium
ere he gets a dose of heatvison comparablehto superman then gets punhched into the stadium
spartan comes back fine and even if manhunter did damage him spartan can heal in minutes from most injuries and if he can't there are other bodies.
spartan comes back fine and even if manhunter did damage him spartan can heal in minutes from most injuries and if he can't there are other bodies.

III. Defenses

There is a lot to touch on here, so I will keep explanations brief.

1) I am not sure how you plan on countering phasing here. Since it is Martian Mahunter's go to defensive option I am assuming you have something up your sleeve, so I won't go too deep here. But just in case your counter is using energy projection...

No Caption Provided

2) Shape shifting. Similar to Reed Richards or Plastic Man, Martian Manhunter can make his body highly malleable and resistant to physical attacks. Which only enhances his already astounding natural durability.

3) Invisibility. Not very commonly used, but should J'onn choose to go invisible he should be undetectable by Spartan. Serving as a defensive and offensive tool.

4) Healing Factor. Should Spartan manage to land a mortal wound (which is doubtful considering everything shown above), J'onn can fall back on his healing factor. Which is potent enough to make Wolverine jealous. Exhibit A, JLA Classified #3 where he fully reforms from a splat on the wall, while his powers were dampened due to nearby fire:

No Caption Provided

And this is all on top of Martian Manhunter's top tier durability.....

a stasis field trap manhunter in a localised time field manhunter has no defense for this voodoo has all of the same powers shapeshiifting telepathy phasing strength and she was only abole to escape by surprising spartan with her telepathy his natural defenses shut her out quickly but it was enough but again that was spartan when he was made from 5000 yearold scrap he is now completely immune to telepathy even after his first upgrade
a stasis field trap manhunter in a localised time field manhunter has no defense for this voodoo has all of the same powers shapeshiifting telepathy phasing strength and she was only abole to escape by surprising spartan with her telepathy his natural defenses shut her out quickly but it was enough but again that was spartan when he was made from 5000 yearold scrap he is now completely immune to telepathy even after his first upgrade

IV. Telepathy

This is what everyone has been waiting for. While it has been fun showcasing his hand to hand prowess, a Martian Manhunter debate is incomplete without discussing mental warfare. So here it is.

In your opener, you provided a scan of Spartan resisting the telepathy of unnamed character. This is insufficient given the degree of telepathy your dealing with here. Martian Manhunter is one of the most prominent telepaths in comics for a reason. Here's some instances of Martian Manhunter scanning every mind on earth:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And even beyond that, here's some instances of Martian Manhunter telepathically assaulting upper echelon beings and characters with high TP resistance:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7
I'm sorry but the scan rule is going to have to suck it....... I really don't want to crop all of these images...
  1. JLA 35: Forces his way into the Spectre's mind and brings him to the astral plane.
  2. JLA 50: Reads Dr. Destiny's mind. Dr Destiny is reality-warper capable of creating alternate realities and warping the entire earth.
  3. JLA 40: Breaks through Maggedon's mental defenses to reach Superman. Maggedon is a high level telepath himself, who has stomped Hector Hammond and TP'd entire planets from light-years away.
  4. Green Lantern Corpse 5: Erases the memories of multiple Green Lanterns. Remember, GLs are also "immune to telepathy".
  5. JLA 51: Destroys Joseph Stinton's mind with illusions and telepathy. Joseph Stinton was granted vast reality warping powers by 6th dimensional beings at this point in time.
  6. JLA 56: Uses his telepathy to keep Vishnu asleep, who if awoken had enough power to destroy the entire universe.
  7. Justice League 20: Defeats Despero in a telepathic battle. Despero is capable of TPing the entire league.

That's an absolutely absurd resume if you ask me....... But perhaps the most directly applicable feat is of Martian Manhunter laying a telepathic smack-down on a group in Blackest Night #8.

Note: This is Black Lantern MMH, however BL Rings do not enhance pre-existing superpowers. So this feat still applies to regular J'onn.
Note: This is Black Lantern MMH, however BL Rings do not enhance pre-existing superpowers. So this feat still applies to regular J'onn.

The reason this is of particular interest, is that Larfleeze is among the characters being affected. Larfleeze has telepathic defenses that are incredibly similar to Spartan's in that not only does he block telepathy, but he sends a recoil affect back at the attacker. This was demonstrated when the god Dyrge entered Larfleeze's mind and was destroyed by mental constructs. Yet in this instance, due to Martian Manhunter's proficiency, he is met with no such resistance. Which is what I suspect would happen if he attacked Spartan's mind.

TL;DR / Summary

  • While Spartan is versatile, Martian Manhunter is more so. His list of powers is both more expansive and more useful.
  • Martian Mahunter is out of Spartan's weight class in terms of strength, speed, and durability.
  • Thus far, you don't have reliable counters for the array of options M.M.H. posses; i.e. intangibility, invisibility, form changing, etc.
  • Telepathy should still be viable, given J'onn's track record.

@comic_book_fan I'm not gonna lie my friend, I think you may have bitten off more than you can chew here. Martian Mahunter is one tough customer, and in my research (albeit limited) Spartan doesn't seem up to par. However, I respect your skills as a debater and am looking forward to see how you attempt to prove me wrong! Good luck bro, you'll need it ;)

No Caption Provided

the nameless telepath is despot he is the most powerful telepath in wildstorm he has beaten both of his sons at once one of them was a planetary level and the other was powerful in his own right and he defeated them both at once he can raise the dead and can manipulate every mind on earth from the moon and granted manhunter is stronger but the fact that spartan version 2 defense was so strong he couldn't even begin to enter his mind at all with 2 added upgrades means .

No Caption Provided

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Hellespont

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comic_book_fan

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@hellespont: and if you really know so little about wildcats where did you get your username from just suspicious

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T4V Finally Spartan never seen him in a cave..

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Hellespont

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@comic_book_fan: Lol it’s just a coincidence. Helspont the WildCATS villain is spelled differently than Hellespont (aka the Dardanelles) which is a real place in Europe.

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Au_141

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@destinyman75: I did multiple CAVs with him a while back before I quit debating. But I was just about to comment the same thing basically

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@au_141: I missed out then, I like the ones nobody does

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@destinyman75: Yeah he’s really powerful and WildCats is dope so I like using him. But then there’s the challenge of overcoming bias but that’s just the nature of CAVs

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@au_141: Agreed, I wish more if Image amd dark horse folks were used on here

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@au_141: Actually meant to Include them

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#33  Edited By StormShadow_X

@supremthor69: Delete that post, this is a 1v1 CaV between debabters. If you want to see stuff like that you should take it to PM

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@hellespont: iam about to start using void spartan feats so be prepared to bring the best of manhunter

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@supremthor69: Hey please delete that man. This is a CaV, meaning it is a debate between me and comic book fan only. You can vote at the end if you like, but until then any of your own scans, opinions, or argument should be kept to your self.

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Hellespont

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@supremthor69: Appreciate it bro, if you are interested in the debate though I can tag you when voting opens.

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Round 1: Refutations and Contextualization

No Caption Provided

Alright my friend, that was a nice response! I was unaware of many of the feats you laid out for Spartan... That said, their are some significant flaws, missing contexts, and necessary clarifications in your post as well. Which I will be highlighting below. It is because of these holes in your case that I stand by my initial four premises:

  1. Martian Manhunter is stronger and more durable than Spartan.
  2. Martian Manhunter is faster than Spartan.
  3. Martian Manhunter is more versatile/ deadly than Spartan.
  4. Martian Manhunter's telepathy will overcome Spartan's defenses.

And these of course will conduce a Martian victory.

Strength & Durability

Apollo feat comparison

thats a different version of apollo the apollo catlin fought was much stronger

Is the difference in the two incarnations power so substantial that Apollo goes from hurting himself hitting J'onn to being on par with J'onn? If so, I think you're going to need scans rather than vague statements as evidence.

More pressingly though, I actually found Caitlin's encounter with Apollo. If you can even call it an encounter. It's from the pages of Gen13 #8. In this two panel "fight" Apollo notes that their just kids, Midnighter is cracking jokes, and the only combat is Apollo tackling Caitlin to the ground and getting called off.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Using this to scale Caitlin to Apollo, and then Spartan to Caitlin, in an attempt to prove Spartan is on par with J'onn is shaky logic at best. Hopefully you can cite a more substantial confrontation between these two, because in reading the issue and researching this is the only one I found.

caitlin was in the dc new 52 and she was comparable to supergirl so either way caitlin is comparable but lets say he isn't strong enough for you

Your argument for Apollo was that the D.C. incarnations of these characters have significantly different power-levels. So this wouldn't apply to Spartan's encounter with the Wildstorm Caitlin by your logic. You don't get it both ways my friend.

Spartan vs Majestic analysis

Spartan sends majestic crashing through a building in case you don't know who majestic is is picture superman raised by klingons telepathy and mild reality warping powers.

This would be very impressive given Majestic is certainly a powerhouse, however if you read the entire issue in context, this scan loses relevance.

This fight is from WildCats (2008) #10. The issue opens with the two pages you showed, then cuts to other unrelated events. When the comic gets back to their fight (on page 9) Majestic is simultaneously choking Spartan and melting his face off with heat vision. Spartan is then forced to self destruct as a last ditch effort, which Majestic no-sells. Then just two pages later (page 13) Majestic has enough energy left after dispatching Spartan to solo the WildCats roster. I am of course not going to post the whole comic, but I cited the reference, so feel free to read it yourself to validate my claims.

To follow up this point, I would like to acknowledge that you compared Majestic to Superman. If a Superman-esque character can no-sell Spartan's best offenses the way Majestic did, then you are going to have a tough time against Martian Manhunter. Who has more than his fair share of feats that put his durability at least on par with, if not past the Man of Steel's. For example, JLA #54:

No Caption Provided

The league is hit with an energy blast by reality warping 6th Dimensional beings. J'onn is the only member who retains consciousness (including Superman, Diana, and Kyle).

Speed

Spartan's sensors

Spartan will see the attack coming minutes before it is launched giving his light speed processing speed plenty of time to counter

I'm not following this argument. The scan is just Spartan sensing people within his vicinity and estimating that they are are "several minutes" out... But Martian Manhunter isn't going to be blitzing from far away. This also doesn't suggest anything about Spartan's combat speed, much less place him at light-speed.

And Just saying for good measure, it wouldn't take Martian Manhunter minutes to travel anywhere on earth with his speed, so you wouldn't have that kind of time no matter how efficient Spartan's sensors are.

The in character argument

it is doubtful in character manhunter is going to go beyond light speed

Perhaps not at first (though he blitzed Weather Wizard in my opener), but as the fight ramps up and Spartan is acknowledged as a threat, Martian Manhunter will absolutely turn on the gas and hit superluminal speeds. I've already shown him doing it in casual situations, but for more credibility I'll cite Brightest Day #21. In this issue Martian Manhunter encounters D'Kay D'Razz, a criminally insane Martian. After their physical and telepathic battle ramps up, J'onn flies her from Mars to the sun in the time it takes them to exchange a couple of sentences (only 1 page) which constitutes far faster than light flight speeds.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

I also think that since we agreed to stipulate both combatants are fighting seriously/ not jobbing, it is silly to pull the in-character argument. Super-speed is an essential and commonly utilized part of the Martian power-set, it's not like I'm arguing for a phase kill or something actually out of character.

Plus, in character, J'onn's morals are much more fluid than the other Justice Leaguers. He is not afraid to use his full power or to kill enemies if they pose a substantial enough threat. He killed D'Kay in my scan above and even killed his own brother...

spartan's first gen processor should still keep up but this was spartan made of 5000 year old scrap from there ship he was outdated your fighting a spartan thousands of times more advanced than he was hear

Again, him sensing someones location and calculating a trajectory doesn't suggest Spartan has light-speed capabilities. And what does "thousands of times more advanced" mean for his speed? Feats are needed.

Spartan vs Majestic... Part 2

even if manhunter gets to him spartan can take a beating

ere he gets a dose of heatvison comparablehto superman then gets punhched into the stadium

spartan comes back fine and even if manhunter did damage him spartan can heal in minutes from most injuries and if he can't there are other bodies.

This is the same battle I cited above (WildCats 10), which I wouldn't consider helpful for your case. Majestic did enough damage with his heat vision and a punch that Spartan was forced to resort to a suicide attack as a last effort. This is bad news for you, because Manhunter possesses similarly top tier striking and heat vision:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
1. Vaporizes a mansion with Martian Vision. 2/3. Beats the breaks off of a brainwashed Billy Batson.

And if you want to compare healing factors, I don't think recovering in minutes compares to Manhunter instantly reforming from a smudge on the wall (shown in my opener).

Stasis Field

a stasis field trap manhunter in a localised time field manhunter has no defense for this voodoo has all of the same powers shapeshiifting telepathy phasing strength and she was only abole to escape by surprising spartan with her telepathy his natural defenses shut her out quickly but it was enough but again that was spartan when he was made from 5000 yearold scrap he is now completely immune to telepathy even after his first upgrade

Firstly, I have some inquiries regarding this scan:

  1. Where does it mention that this field distorts time? If it was freezing Voodoo in time why was she able to talk and use her telepathy? Based on your scan the field just seems to be an energy field, which is a very important distinction.
  2. Does Voodoo have phasing? I looked at her CV page and a respect thread and it wasn't listed as one of her abilities. I would appreciate if you could post an instance of her using phasing.

Escaping the field

Now for actual counters. This is an interesting attempt at attacking Manhunter while he is intangible, especially if Voodoo actually does have phasing abilities. However, I would like to present some of Martian Manhunter's phasing feats that set him apart, and could pose problems for your stasis field tactic.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
  • JLA Year One #8: Phases out of Hal Jordan's containment construct.
  • JLA: A Midsummer's Nightmare #3: Phases through an energy force field (which tanked hits from Superman and Kyle Rayner earlier in the issue).

As you can see Martian Manhunter's phasing has a history of being successful against energy-based containment fields.

Unconventional options

In case you can prove phasing is completely negated, I have other unconventional means of escape:

[Option 1: Telekinetic Tethering]

This ones rather simple. J'onn uses his telekinesis to pull himself out. An instance of this can be seen in Justice League Task Force #32 where Martian Manhunter telekinetically tethers himself to a ship moving at eight times the speed of light. Not only does his telekinetic grip hold, but he is able to pull himself back to the ship.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Scans backwards, read from right to left.

[Option 2: Energy Manipulation]

A little known ability of Martian Manhunter's is that he can actually psychically affect energy. For example, in Wonder Woman #125 Manhunter converts Blue-Superman's electromagnetic energy into non-physical psychic energy. A tactic that may work to disrupt your field.

No Caption Provided

Admittedly this one is somewhat of a stretch, but it's certainly worth bringing up, since your own stasis field is a seldom used power as well.

Evading the field

All of the above is assuming Spartan can actually tag Martian Manhunter with his stasis beam. Which is possible if J'onn decides to try and tank it, however if he chooses to evade, he is more than fast enough. In fact, his processing speed will allow him to perceive your attack in slow motion. Exhibit A;

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
This is an absurd speed feat.....

The above is JLA #20, where Martian Manhunter, Superman, and the Flash hold a lengthy conversation about detailed strategy, in under a single second. This is done so fast that Orion and Kyle Rayner (both who have FTL feats) are frozen, as if they are complete statues.

Statuing FTL characters + FTL travel speed is more than enough to evade anything in Spartan's arsenal.

Telepathy

the nameless telepath is despot he is the most powerful telepath in wildstorm he has beaten both of his sons at once one of them was a planetary level and the other was powerful in his own right and he defeated them both at once he can raise the dead and can manipulate every mind on earth from the moon and granted manhunter is stronger but the fact that spartan version 2 defense was so strong he couldn't even begin to enter his mind at all with 2 added upgrades means .

To begin deconstructing Spartan's supposed telepathic immunity I would like to clarify the oversimplification made in the text of your scan. Particularly in the sentence "your a goddamn robot" which is not entirely accurate. See, Spartan is not simply a robot, he is a bio-synthetic organism. A fact that is stated in his Comicvine page, Wiki page, and in your own scan against Despot. The key distinction here is that unlike a true robot, Spartan's body (and thus brain) is part machine / part biological organism. His synthetic half makes mental attacks against him difficult. But his organic half makes it not impossible....

And I have proof. Majestic #7 Spartan has been completely controlled by a group of Daemonites:

No Caption Provided

Now that I have proved it is possible, I just need to solidify the fact that Martian Manhunter has the telepathic finesse and potency to pull it off. Which he absolutely does.

[1] - I would like to begin here by showing that Manhunter has been able to telepathically connect to artificial intelligence and bio-synthetics (like Spartan) before. The first instance I'd like to show is from Martian Manhunter #20 where J'onn telepathically connects to the A.I. in baby Superman's Kryptonian rocket.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
It is clearly noted that the ship is "machine intelligence" yet J'onn has no issue making telepathic contact.

The second instance is from Green Lantern #87 where Manhunter telepathically reroutes the trajectory of a part organic part mechanical (AKA bio-synthetic) ship that is the size of Manhattan and had the power to wipe-out planets.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
They posted in reverse order. Read from right to left.

Spartan's partly technological biology is nothing J'onn hasn't encountered and overcome before.

[2] - Martian Manhunter has demonstrated that he has more telepathic power than entire groups of telepaths before (thus should be able to replicate the power of a group of Daemonites). For example, in JLA #55 he fought against nine White Martians each with amplified telepathic powers due to absorbing the brain matter of earths top mentalists. They're combined efforts are able to physically subdue Manhunter, but telepathically they are stalemated.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

[3] - In my opener I provided numerous instances of Manhunter affecting adversaries with telepathic resistance, however to close here I would like to present one more of note. Green Lantern #44 where Barry Allen and Hal Jordan are pitted against the reanimated Black Lantern Martian Manhunter. Not only do their combined powers struggle against J'onn, but at a point in the battle they are both simultaneously crippled my a mental assault.

Of course, J'onn eventually loses this battle, but only because they exploit his weakness to fire. Not a bad loss considering both GL and Flash are powerhouses in their own right.
Of course, J'onn eventually loses this battle, but only because they exploit his weakness to fire. Not a bad loss considering both GL and Flash are powerhouses in their own right.

Remember, both Hal and Barry have solid anti-telepathy feats.

Closing Analysis [TL;DR]

  • Strength & Durability: You only countered my Apollo feat, which was of minor significance compared to the planetary level feats I posted as well. To which I responded by providing the context to both your Apollo and Majestic feats, revealing that they aren't particularly impressive, and still place Spartan far below Martian Manhunter in physicality.
  • Speed: You haven't posted actually speed feats (just location based scanning) and tried to argue that J'onn doesn't go light-speed in character. Which is false. So far you don't have a way of stopping a blitz if it comes or tagging J'onn if he chooses to be evasive.
  • Versatility / Hax-powers: Your stasis field is an interesting tactic at overcoming my versatility, but the diverse Martian power-set provides a multitude of counters.
  • Telepathy: Spartan's biology may be unique to his universe, but it is nothing Martian Manhunter hasn't faced before. He has telepathic feats against A.I.'s, bio-synths, telepathy resisters, other telepaths, extra-dimensional gods, etc. etc. Plus I have provided proof Spartan has been mentally controlled before.

Overall, Martian Manhunter is superior on all fronts. He has the raw power & speed to put you down, the toughness to tank your best hits, the versatility to counter any situation, and the telepathic means to end the fight at any time.

Your gonna need it ;)
Your gonna need it ;)

@comic_book_fan your move bro.

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@hellespont: good job but you miss understood alot of what i was saying probably my fault the way i brick things together i will explain in my response and iam going to use void spartan in my next round i was trying to avoid using this version because it feels like cheating

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#40  Edited By Hellespont

@comic_book_fan: Okay, I’m curious as to what you feel I was misunderstanding.

As for Void, bring it man! I’m not overly familiar with what that means, so I’m excited to see ur feats.

Btw, how many rounds do you want to do?

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@comic_book_fan: Okay, I’m curious as to what you feel I was misunderstanding.

As for Void, bring it man! I’m not overly familiar with what that means, so I’m excited to see ur feats.

Btw, how many rounds do you want to do?

1 more

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#42  Edited By Hellespont
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@hellespont: i will have my response up soon lol i forgot

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@comic_book_fan: My man! Let's finish this up. It was a great debate, I would hate to see it fizzle out.

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@hellespont: i will have my response up by monday evening i am just super busy until then but iam free monday and tuesday and i dont want to rush anything half assed

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@comic_book_fan: No worries, I just want to make sure this doesn’t get forgotten.

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Round 1: Refutations and Contextualization

No Caption Provided

Alright my friend, that was a nice response! I was unaware of many of the feats you laid out for Spartan... That said, their are some significant flaws, missing contexts, and necessary clarifications in your post as well. Which I will be highlighting below. It is because of these holes in your case that I stand by my initial four premises:

  1. Martian Manhunter is stronger and more durable than Spartan.
  2. Martian Manhunter is faster than Spartan.
  3. Martian Manhunter is more versatile/ deadly than Spartan.
  4. Martian Manhunter's telepathy will overcome Spartan's defenses.

And these of course will conduce a Martian victory.

Strength & Durability

Apollo feat comparison

thats a different version of apollo the apollo catlin fought was much stronger

Is the difference in the two incarnations power so substantial that Apollo goes from hurting himself hitting J'onn to being on par with J'onn? If so, I think you're going to need scans rather than vague statements as evidence.

More pressingly though, I actually found Caitlin's encounter with Apollo. If you can even call it an encounter. It's from the pages of Gen13 #8. In this two panel "fight" Apollo notes that their just kids, Midnighter is cracking jokes, and the only combat is Apollo tackling Caitlin to the ground and getting called off.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Using this to scale Caitlin to Apollo, and then Spartan to Caitlin, in an attempt to prove Spartan is on par with J'onn is shaky logic at best. Hopefully you can cite a more substantial confrontation between these two, because in reading the issue and researching this is the only one I found.

caitlin was in the dc new 52 and she was comparable to supergirl so either way caitlin is comparable but lets say he isn't strong enough for you

Your argument for Apollo was that the D.C. incarnations of these characters have significantly different power-levels. So this wouldn't apply to Spartan's encounter with the Wildstorm Caitlin by your logic. You don't get it both ways my friend.

iam going to just cut this part away now that i am using void spartan i no longer need these apollo and catlin comparisons for my arguement and they would require way to much back tracking and explaining.

Spartan vs Majestic analysis

Spartan sends majestic crashing through a building in case you don't know who majestic is is picture superman raised by klingons telepathy and mild reality warping powers.

This would be very impressive given Majestic is certainly a powerhouse, however if you read the entire issue in context, this scan loses relevance.

This fight is from WildCats (2008) #10. The issue opens with the two pages you showed, then cuts to other unrelated events. When the comic gets back to their fight (on page 9) Majestic is simultaneously choking Spartan and melting his face off with heat vision. Spartan is then forced to self destruct as a last ditch effort,

it was hardly desperation spartan was tanking the heat vision and using a sonic attack of his own he was smiling it wasn't desperation and this version of spartan was just trying to get the others away from mejestic he had no illusions about beating him but the fact he managed to fight him the way he did was impressive.

which Majestic no-sells. Then just two pages later (page 13) Majestic has enough energy left after dispatching Spartan to solo the WildCats roster. I am of course not going to post the whole comic, but I cited the reference, so feel free to read it yourself to validate my claims.

he didn't no sale it hurt that's why he was angry but of course it wasn't nearly enough beat him but the manhunter would be much more vulnerable to this kind of attack than majestic .

To follow up this point, I would like to acknowledge that you compared Majestic to Superman. If a Superman-esque character can no-sell Spartan's best offenses the way Majestic did, then you are going to have a tough time against Martian Manhunter. Who has more than his fair share of feats that put his durability at least on par with, if not past the Man of Steel's. For example, JLA #54:

No Caption Provided

The league is hit with an energy blast by reality warping 6th Dimensional beings. J'onn is the only member who retains consciousness (including Superman, Diana, and Kyle).

Speed

Spartan's sensors

Spartan will see the attack coming minutes before it is launched giving his light speed processing speed plenty of time to counter

I'm not following this argument. The scan is just Spartan sensing people within his vicinity and estimating that they are are "several minutes" out... But Martian Manhunter isn't going to be blitzing from far away. This also doesn't suggest anything about Spartan's combat speed, much less place him at light-speed.

And Just saying for good measure, it wouldn't take Martian Manhunter minutes to travel anywhere on earth with his speed, so you wouldn't have that kind of time no matter how efficient Spartan's sensors are.

The in character argument

it is doubtful in character manhunter is going to go beyond light speed

Perhaps not at first (though he blitzed Weather Wizard in my opener), but as the fight ramps up and Spartan is acknowledged as a threat, Martian Manhunter will absolutely turn on the gas and hit superluminal speeds. I've already shown him doing it in casual situations, but for more credibility I'll cite Brightest Day #21. In this issue Martian Manhunter encounters D'Kay D'Razz, a criminally insane Martian. After their physical and telepathic battle ramps up, J'onn flies her from Mars to the sun in the time it takes them to exchange a couple of sentences (only 1 page) which constitutes far faster than light flight speeds.

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I also think that since we agreed to stipulate both combatants are fighting seriously/ not jobbing, it is silly to pull the in-character argument. Super-speed is an essential and commonly utilized part of the Martian power-set, it's not like I'm arguing for a phase kill or something actually out of character.

Plus, in character, J'onn's morals are much more fluid than the other Justice Leaguers. He is not afraid to use his full power or to kill enemies if they pose a substantial enough threat. He killed D'Kay in my scan above and even killed his own brother...

spartan's first gen processor should still keep up but this was spartan made of 5000 year old scrap from there ship he was outdated your fighting a spartan thousands of times more advanced than he was hear

Again, him sensing someones location and calculating a trajectory doesn't suggest Spartan has light-speed capabilities. And what does "thousands of times more advanced" mean for his speed? Feats are needed.

Spartan vs Majestic... Part 2

even if manhunter gets to him spartan can take a beating

ere he gets a dose of heatvison comparablehto superman then gets punhched into the stadium

spartan comes back fine and even if manhunter did damage him spartan can heal in minutes from most injuries and if he can't there are other bodies.

This is the same battle I cited above (WildCats 10), which I wouldn't consider helpful for your case. Majestic did enough damage with his heat vision and a punch that Spartan was forced to resort to a suicide attack as a last effort. This is bad news for you, because Manhunter possesses similarly top tier striking and heat vision:

he didn't resort to suicide he knew he had dozens of bodies to switch too on the plane which is where he needed to go anyway to achieve his goal it was a sound strategy that just didn't pan out . the heat vision melted synthetic skin the metal was fine underneath .

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1. Vaporizes a mansion with Martian Vision. 2/3. Beats the breaks off of a brainwashed Billy Batson.

And if you want to compare healing factors, I don't think recovering in minutes compares to Manhunter instantly reforming from a smudge on the wall (shown in my opener).

Stasis Field

a stasis field trap manhunter in a localised time field manhunter has no defense for this voodoo has all of the same powers shapeshiifting telepathy phasing strength and she was only abole to escape by surprising spartan with her telepathy his natural defenses shut her out quickly but it was enough but again that was spartan when he was made from 5000 yearold scrap he is now completely immune to telepathy even after his first upgrade

Firstly, I have some inquiries regarding this scan:

  1. Where does it mention that this field distorts time? If it was freezing Voodoo in time why was she able to talk and use her telepathy? Based on your scan the field just seems to be an energy field, which is a very important distinction.
  2. the definition of stasis field. A stasis /ˈsteɪsɪs/ or stasis field, in science fiction, is a confined area of space in which time has been stopped or the contents have been rendered motionless.
  3. Does Voodoo have phasing? I looked at her CV page and a respect thread and it wasn't listed as one of her abilities. I would appreciate if you could post an instance of her using phasing.
  4. she is part daemoniate they have that power.

Escaping the field

Now for actual counters. This is an interesting attempt at attacking Manhunter while he is intangible, especially if Voodoo actually does have phasing abilities. However, I would like to present some of Martian Manhunter's phasing feats that set him apart, and could pose problems for your stasis field tactic.

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  • JLA Year One #8: Phases out of Hal Jordan's containment construct.
  • JLA: A Midsummer's Nightmare #3: Phases through an energy force field (which tanked hits from Superman and Kyle Rayner earlier in the issue).

As you can see Martian Manhunter's phasing has a history of being successful against energy-based containment fields.

Unconventional options

In case you can prove phasing is completely negated, I have other unconventional means of escape:

[Option 1: Telekinetic Tethering]

This ones rather simple. J'onn uses his telekinesis to pull himself out. An instance of this can be seen in Justice League Task Force #32 where Martian Manhunter telekinetically tethers himself to a ship moving at eight times the speed of light. Not only does his telekinetic grip hold, but he is able to pull himself back to the ship.

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Scans backwards, read from right to left.

[Option 2: Energy Manipulation]

A little known ability of Martian Manhunter's is that he can actually psychically affect energy. For example, in Wonder Woman #125 Manhunter converts Blue-Superman's electromagnetic energy into non-physical psychic energy. A tactic that may work to disrupt your field.

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Admittedly this one is somewhat of a stretch, but it's certainly worth bringing up, since your own stasis field is a seldom used power as well.

Evading the field

All of the above is assuming Spartan can actually tag Martian Manhunter with his stasis beam. Which is possible if J'onn decides to try and tank it, however if he chooses to evade, he is more than fast enough. In fact, his processing speed will allow him to perceive your attack in slow motion. Exhibit A;

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This is an absurd speed feat.....

The above is JLA #20, where Martian Manhunter, Superman, and the Flash hold a lengthy conversation about detailed strategy, in under a single second. This is done so fast that Orion and Kyle Rayner (both who have FTL feats) are frozen, as if they are complete statues.

Statuing FTL characters + FTL travel speed is more than enough to evade anything in Spartan's arsenal.

Telepathy

the nameless telepath is despot he is the most powerful telepath in wildstorm he has beaten both of his sons at once one of them was a planetary level and the other was powerful in his own right and he defeated them both at once he can raise the dead and can manipulate every mind on earth from the moon and granted manhunter is stronger but the fact that spartan version 2 defense was so strong he couldn't even begin to enter his mind at all with 2 added upgrades means .

To begin deconstructing Spartan's supposed telepathic immunity I would like to clarify the oversimplification made in the text of your scan. Particularly in the sentence "your a goddamn robot" which is not entirely accurate. See, Spartan is not simply a robot, he is a bio-synthetic organism. A fact that is stated in his Comicvine page, Wiki page, and in your own scan against Despot. The key distinction here is that unlike a true robot, Spartan's body (and thus brain) is part machine / part biological organism. His synthetic half makes mental attacks against him difficult. But his organic half makes it not impossible....

And I have proof. Majestic #7 Spartan has been completely controlled by a group of Daemonites:

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Now that I have proved it is possible, I just need to solidify the fact that Martian Manhunter has the telepathic finesse and potency to pull it off. Which he absolutely does.

that wasn't telepathy it was possession he was possessed by them completely diffrent power and all of them are powerful telepaths in there own right and had to resort to possessing him that with the 3 scans of him blocking telepathy outright makes it unlikely tp is an option

[1] - I would like to begin here by showing that Manhunter has been able to telepathically connect to artificial intelligence and bio-synthetics (like Spartan) before. The first instance I'd like to show is from Martian Manhunter #20 where J'onn telepathically connects to the A.I. in baby Superman's Kryptonian rocket.

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It is clearly noted that the ship is "machine intelligence" yet J'onn has no issue making telepathic contact.

The second instance is from Green Lantern #87 where Manhunter telepathically reroutes the trajectory of a part organic part mechanical (AKA bio-synthetic) ship that is the size of Manhattan and had the power to wipe-out planets.

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They posted in reverse order. Read from right to left.

Spartan's partly technological biology is nothing J'onn hasn't encountered and overcome before.

[2] - Martian Manhunter has demonstrated that he has more telepathic power than entire groups of telepaths before (thus should be able to replicate the power of a group of Daemonites). For example, in JLA #55 he fought against nine White Martians each with amplified telepathic powers due to absorbing the brain matter of earths top mentalists. They're combined efforts are able to physically subdue Manhunter, but telepathically they are stalemated.

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[3] - In my opener I provided numerous instances of Manhunter affecting adversaries with telepathic resistance, however to close here I would like to present one more of note. Green Lantern #44 where Barry Allen and Hal Jordan are pitted against the reanimated Black Lantern Martian Manhunter. Not only do their combined powers struggle against J'onn, but at a point in the battle they are both simultaneously crippled my a mental assault.

Of course, J'onn eventually loses this battle, but only because they exploit his weakness to fire. Not a bad loss considering both GL and Flash are powerhouses in their own right.
Of course, J'onn eventually loses this battle, but only because they exploit his weakness to fire. Not a bad loss considering both GL and Flash are powerhouses in their own right.

Remember, both Hal and Barry have solid anti-telepathy feats.

Closing Analysis [TL;DR]

  • Strength & Durability: You only countered my Apollo feat, which was of minor significance compared to the planetary level feats I posted as well. To which I responded by providing the context to both your Apollo and Majestic feats, revealing that they aren't particularly impressive, and still place Spartan far below Martian Manhunter in physicality.
  • Speed: You haven't posted actually speed feats (just location based scanning) and tried to argue that J'onn doesn't go light-speed in character. Which is false. So far you don't have a way of stopping a blitz if it comes or tagging J'onn if he chooses to be evasive.
  • Versatility / Hax-powers: Your stasis field is an interesting tactic at overcoming my versatility, but the diverse Martian power-set provides a multitude of counters.
  • Telepathy: Spartan's biology may be unique to his universe, but it is nothing Martian Manhunter hasn't faced before. He has telepathic feats against A.I.'s, bio-synths, telepathy resisters, other telepaths, extra-dimensional gods, etc. etc. Plus I have provided proof Spartan has been mentally controlled before.

Overall, Martian Manhunter is superior on all fronts. He has the raw power & speed to put you down, the toughness to tank your best hits, the versatility to counter any situation, and the telepathic means to end the fight at any time.

Your gonna need it ;)
Your gonna need it ;)

@comic_book_fan your move bro.

tonight i just went in on some things you misunderstood tomorrow i will actually go on the offenssive.

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Hellespont

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@comic_book_fan: nice! Is that your complete post or you have more tomorrow?