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#1 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

CaV: Major_Hellstorm vs. Jloneblackheart

Midnighter
Midnighter

V.S

Gamora
Gamora

Rules:

  • 616 Gamora
  • Composite Midnighter
  • City setting starting distance 50 ft.
  • In character with morals on, but determined to win
  • Winner by KO, Incapacitation or Unable to Continue
  • No Battlefield Removal
  • Random encounter with no prior knowledge
  • Standard gear
  • Doors can't be used on Gamora or her gear.

Setting:

Midnighter starts at the left and Gamora starts on the right, 50 feet apart
Midnighter starts at the left and Gamora starts on the right, 50 feet apart

Voting:

  • This is a CaV (Challenge a Viner) and debating should be between Major_Hellstorm and jloneblackheart only
  • Please keep your opinions to yourself until closed for voting
  • You can ask to be tagged for votes
  • Vote for who you think was the better debater, not who you think would win the fight
  • Reasoning for votes and constructive feedback are encouraged
  • Thanks for reading!

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#2 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#3 Posted by deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57 (4213 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#5 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

No Caption Provided

Midnighter

Bio:

His origin differs from Wildstrom to N52 so to save time I will just quote the CV wiki.

Midnighter (AKA Lucas Trent) is an augmented hero with superhuman physical abilities and the power to run through thousands of fight scenarios in his head before a single punch is thrown. Although he's one of the good guys, Midnighter enjoys violence and brutality and never feels more alive than when he's in the middle of a bloody brawl.

Stats:

As some of you may know, Midnighter is superhuman. But just how superhuman exactly? Well, that is what I will cover in this section.

Speed:

In terms of speed this guy is a casual bullet timer. For example here he is outrunning and dodging machine gun bullets.

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Here is another example, this time Midnighter turns around and blocks bullets from a soldier after they are fired

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Now both feast are incredibly impressive, but since I am not that knowledgeable on Gamora I will assume the worst and say that she is faster than him (which is yet to be proven of course). But even if that were true, Midnighter would have problem tagging her as he is able to tag a speedster who is faster than he is using his reflexes and skill.

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Strength:

In terms of strength Midnighter is pretty beastly, being able to rip the spins out of metahumans which I will show later on. But since you have told me that Gamora isn't that physically strong I will just post Midnighter's best pure strength feat to show that he is.

It might be a liottle hard to see but the person in the monster's mouth is in fat Midnighter
It might be a liottle hard to see but the person in the monster's mouth is in fat Midnighter

Durability:

Now I may not know all that much about Gamora but I am convinced that Midnighter holds the distinct edge in this department. For starters he tanked being hit through several cars.

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And that was after surviving an explosion that blew up the top of a building.

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But if you think that was his best feat then you haven't seen anything yet. One of his best feats would probably be the time he tanked Apollo crashing into him.

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Or the time he survived Apollo straight up punching him.

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And even if you do manage to damage him, he has a low level healing factor to stay alive, it isn't Deadpool level stuff but it's something. Here he is healing a broken neck in minutes he still wasn't 100% though).

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Powers, Gears and Abilities:

Alright, now that we have covered Gamora's stats it is time to cover the rest of the Midnighter package. Starting with skill.

Skill:

I have no doubts that Gamora is a highly skilled warrior. However in a battle of skill very few can compete with Midnighter. Nightwing learned that the hard way.

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Now I have seen Gamora's feats of taking out the Thing with a nerve strikes,quite impressive, but Midnighter has already done something similar in almost killing MMH.

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And here he is taking out a spider giant monster he has never seen before in one strike.

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Battle Computer:

Ah, the legendary battle computer. Midnighter's biggest advantage in this battle. I'm sure you have heard of it before, and I'm sure you have seen this card before.

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And he doesn't run through combat a million times just once, oh no, he does it repeatedly throughout a fight. A million times every few seconds. This helped him dodge Deadshot's shots.

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Here's another feat, here he causally dodges attacks from a hammer wielding lady while distracted.

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Doors:

This ability may not be a game changer, but it will give Midnighter the advantage of being wherever he wants in the battlefield. Which includes right behind Gamora.

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Weaponry:

Oh yes, Midnighter is also well versed with weapons. And while his weapons may be more basic, they are still pretty cool. Let me give you a rundown.

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  • His collapsible bo staff, simple yet reliable. It can also expand a whole lot.
  • His explosive darts. Which are rarely used but still useful.
  • Shurikens. Pretty basic stuff but still deadly.

Those are just the main stuff, mind you. He carries around a whole lot of tools under his trench coat.

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But really anything is a weapon in Midnighter's hands. Even the calling cards he always likes carrying around.

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Conclusion:

Like I said, I am not all that knowledgeable on Gamora. But based on what I do know Midnighter should hold the edge on durability and strength while having no disadvantages, but thanks to his doors and battle computer he should hold the advantage in skill and speed too.

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#6 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

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#8 Edited by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio

Gamora -The Deadliest Woman in the Universe

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Taken as a youth by Thanos and trained to be the ultimate assassin, Gamora has earned the reputation as the most dangerous woman in the universe. Her body was augmented and enhanced for battle and her skill honed unarmed or armed with blades or firearms. Eventually turning away from her “father,” Gamora teamed with Adam Warlock and later joined the Infinity Watch. She would then become a long time member of the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Powers/Abilities

  • Super Speed and Agility
  • Enhanced Strength
  • Enhanced Durability
  • Enhanced Senses
  • Healing Factor
  • Unarmed and Armed Combat Master

For this battle, Gamora will be armed with her weapon of choice, swords. Some feats may show spears or other bladed weapons as she changes it up fairly often.

I appear to be the underdog here so I’m coming out of the gate a little heavy handed in the scans department. I'm not so sure most are aware of the amazing Gamora.

Speed

Gamora is fast. More times than not, she takes a sword to a gun fight and comes out unscathed. She also has incredible agility and acrobatics that I will focus on in later posts.

  • Scan 1) Dodges machine gun fire from several gunmen who have the high ground. (Gamora #5)
  • Scan 2) Uses agility to dodge fire from multiple SHIELD mechs (Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 4 #13)
  • Scans 3-6) Blitzes a Badoon in the open while dodging his fire. (Guardians of the Galaxy: Tomorrow’s Avengers)
  • Scans 7-9) Moves as a blur and kills multiple opponents. (Guardians of the Galaxy: Tomorrow’s Avengers)
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Durability

If those are the best examples you have for Midnighter, you would be mistaken that his durability is better.

  • Scans 1-3) Gets punched through a wall into molten metal and comes out just fine. (Guardians of the Galaxy: Tomorrow’s Avengers)
  • Scans 4-5) Crashes from orbit into the Moon in a fight with Angela and gets right up to fight. (Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 #5)
  • Scans 6-7) Sent hurdling to Earth from orbit and still not unconscious after a long battle. (Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 4 #1)
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She’s still got an even better than this as well.

I also call you healing factor and raise you a Wolverine. She’s healed from poisons to the heat of stars.

  • Gets stabbed in the gut by Wolverine and is only momentarily out of action. (Infinity Crusade #5)
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Strength

Now, I did not say Gamora wasn’t physically strong. I said she has no strength feats but can throw down with heavy hitters. She certainly has some striking power on her side.

  • Scan 1) Smashes Annihilation Wave bugs through a wall. (Annihilation: Ronan #4)
  • Scans 2-3) Throwing down with Asgardians and KO’ing Volstagg. (Warlock and the Infinity Watch #25)
  • Scans 4-5) Staggers Rogue, She-Hulk and Wonder Man. (Infinity War #4)
  • Scan 6-7) Punches Drax into a wall leaving an indentation. (Warlock and the Infinity Watch #34)

More to come as she is pretty consistent in harming those well above her weight class.

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Skill

So now that we’ve locked down the speed and striking power, let’s take a look at the skill she uses. She isn’t the most dangerous woman in the universe for nothing. In fact, the striking power is directly related to the incredible martial arts skills she has.

  • Scans 1-2) Takes out 42 trained clone hunters single handedly. (Guardians Team-Up #4)
  • Scans 3-4) Takes out a U.N. task force of 50+ soldiers and tanks single handedly. (Warlock and the Infinity Watch #14)
  • Scans 5-6) Nerve strikes take out Rage and Thing. (Infinity Crusade #5)
  • Scans 7-11) Thanos can’t lay a hand on her and she lands a blow that would have killed anyone else. (Warlock and the Infinity Watch #8)
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The Battle Computer

Ah, the Battle Computer. On paper (and on Midnighter’s card) it sure sounds awesome and infallible. But is it really?

In your scans we see Dick Grayson landing hits on Midnighter. Gamora is faster and stronger than Dick Grayson and, as you will see soon, far more agile and acrobatic.

We also see Deadshot shooting Midnighter. Now, that was part of Midnighter’s plan to take the shot and win the fight, but taking a strike or a sword slash from Gamora won’t be an option. Either would be more than he can tank and give the opening for Gamora to land a finishing blow.

Even without the weaknesses you’ve already presented, it has others:

The Battle Computer is bypassed by those that can access the situation faster than he can. (Grifter/Midnighter #3)

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It is also useless against those who aren’t planning the fight in their mind. Here we see he could get no readings on the Joker. (Dc/Wildstorm: Dreamwar #5)

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Now while this isn’t completely applicable since Gamora isn’t insane it does show that an opponent needs to be concentrating on what they plan to do next.

While the Battle Computer may work well against Gamora’s initial attacks the subsequent ones should be far less predictable. Gamora is a highly trained martial artist and as such, relies on muscle memory to react. It’s just part of being a trained assassin from a young age throughout her life. She’s never known peace. That muscle memory is why Dick Grayson could land hits. Just because he can play the battle out in his head doesn’t mean he is untouchable or that not being hit is an option.

So while Midnighter can react to a speedster’s initial attack he would most likely have far greater difficulty against a continued assault from one. Gamora has the speed, durability, strength and skill to be a major problem for Midnighter and he won’t be able to shrug off her attacks easily. He’s been tagged by far less skilled or powerful opponents.

One slip up and it’s over. Meanwhile, if Midnighter does land hits on Gamora, she can take them and heal from them quickly and continue the battle.

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#9 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

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Counters: Speed

You didn't make claims here so there isn't really anything for me to debunk. Looking at your feats I think that speed is equal, but Gamora may have the agility advantage. But one thing I did not mention in my opener is Midnighter's burst speed. Here is one of his burst speed feats:

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As you can see, he blitzes a man who claims to be the fastest killer alive and near Flash speeds. Now whether his claims are true doesn't matter, because that man was clearly faster than Midnighter and thus faster than Gamora. But Midnighter blitzed him anyway with only second of burst speed. Not only that but he has a fine control over his speed, to the point where he can vibrate like the Flash, to unhinge a metal chair that was screwed to the floor.

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All in all, Midnighter is just as fast as Gamora while being slightly less agile without speed burst. With it, he will be able to blitz Gamora to next week. But let's not forget how Midnighter can beat speedsters using his battle computer alone (which I have already showed).

Counters: Strength

Now, I did not say Gamora wasn’t physically strong. I said she has no strength feats but can throw down with heavy hitters. She certainly has some striking power on her side.

Ah, I must have miss remembered.

More to come as she is pretty consistent in harming those well above her weight class.

Her feats are certainly impressive. Especially scans 4-5. However, Midnighter is not so easily outdone. Here he is also striking foes above his weight class such as Etrigan.

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Except here Midnighter was able to draw blood.

Here is another time he drew blood from a high tier that likes to spit.

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As you can see above, he draws blood from Atrocitus's legs using his batons. Atrocitus during this issue was taking on MMH and Apollo and winning.

Lastly, here he takes out the Engineer (pretty strong girl) with a headbutt.

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So yeah, Midnighter should be slightly above in terms of pure striking as he drew blood from stronger foes, whereas, Gamora just knocks them back.

Counters: Durability/Healing

She’s still got an even better than this as well.

I'd like to see those. Because Midnighter's best is him taking a blast that previously leveled multiple buildings. Granted he was out of commission for a few days after.

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I also call you healing factor and raise you a Wolverine. She’s healed from poisons to the heat of stars.

Logan was just being nice. His regen is way better than that, he wouldn't even pause from getting stabbed. And as I showed earlier, Midnighter wouldn't pause from getting stabbed and as you will see from the section below, stabbings don't matter that much either. He even destroys his own ears i it will give him an advantage (he also heals his ears shortly after he defeated the death screaming girl).

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He also claims that he is unkillable and that a destroyed heart would only slow him down (Parasite had his powers).

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Counters: Skill

So now that we’ve locked down the speed and striking power, let’s take a look at the skill she uses. She isn’t the most dangerous woman in the universe for nothing. In fact, the striking power is directly related to the incredible martial arts skills she has.

I believe I have already showed scans of Midnighter doing similar things. In fact here he is, also taking groups of people (or rather a person with clones, he is taking down Multiplex).

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So now that we know that both Midnighter and Gamora are deadly skilled. Let is see how Midnighter performs against another similarly skilled fighter in Prometheus (who has the skills of the world's greatest martial artists including Batman and Midnighter himself).

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As you can see, not only did he beat Promethueus without his Battle Computer. He also did it after getting stabbed.

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This shows incredible pain tolerance and skill. So as you can see, even if Gamora was as skilled as DC's best combined she wouldn't even be able to hold her own (as Prometheus only lasted that long due to the Battle Computer being blocked and Middy being stabbed prior).

The Battle Computer

Ah, the Battle Computer. On paper (and on Midnighter’s card) it sure sounds awesome and infallible. But is it really?

Basically yes.

In your scans we see Dick Grayson landing hits on Midnighter. Gamora is faster and stronger than Dick Grayson and, as you will see soon, far more agile and acrobatic.

Perhaps. But Midnighter very clearly was going easy on Dick. He even says that he is pissed off then he draws blood from Dick, he then says in the last panel "I'm done going eas-" so Dick only landed shots because Midnighter allowed him too. Midnighter won't be allowing Gamora anything.

We also see Deadshot shooting Midnighter. Now, that was part of Midnighter’s plan to take the shot and win the fight, but taking a strike or a sword slash from Gamora won’t be an option. Either would be more than he can tank and give the opening for Gamora to land a finishing blow.

When Midnighter was fighting Deadshot he just got of being tortured. So there's that. And there's the fact that with his perfect aim, Deadshot put him in situation where taking the shot was the best option, Gamora isn't going to be doing that.

The Battle Computer is bypassed by those that can access the situation faster than he can. (Grifter/Midnighter #3)

Gamora can process a situation a million and one times a second? Cause if not, I don't see why this matters in this fight.,

It is also useless against those who aren’t planning the fight in their mind. Here we see he could get no readings on the Joker. (Dc/Wildstorm: Dreamwar #5)

A. that entire event was PIS filled, you had stuff like Grifter killing Dr. Fate with bullets or Supes OHKOing Majestic or Spartan being taken out by Batman, etc. B. The event basically never happened, as the DC characters were constructs and the Wildstorm characters were just dreaming. And worst of all C. Midnighter has fought and beat someone crazy before, in Joker's assistant, Harley Quin. He beat her with ridiculous ease.

It happens in the left panel boxes if you couldn't tell
It happens in the left panel boxes if you couldn't tell

So yeah, the entire situation with the Joker is loaded with insanity. Honestly, even without his Battle Computer this is should have happened.

Now while this isn’t completely applicable since Gamora isn’t insane it does show that an opponent needs to be concentrating on what they plan to do next.

While the Battle Computer may work well against Gamora’s initial attacks the subsequent ones should be far less predictable. Gamora is a highly trained martial artist and as such, relies on muscle memory to react. It’s just part of being a trained assassin from a young age throughout her life. She’s never known peace. That muscle memory is why Dick Grayson could land hits. Just because he can play the battle out in his head doesn’t mean he is untouchable or that not being hit is an option.

The entire muscle memory thing to counter the Battle Computer is based on weak evidence tbh. Midnighter isn't Mr. X or the Gorgon, he doesn't read minds. He assess and simulates a situation a million times an instant. What you are thinking or how you fight does not matter to him. Here he is explaining it in his first N52 issue, where he claims he has won a fight before it has even begun (before the other fighter could even think of their moves).

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So while Midnighter can react to a speedster’s initial attack he would most likely have far greater difficulty against a continued assault from one.

Gamora is not a speedster. Especially not compared to Midnighter.

Gamora has the speed, durability, strength and skill to be a major problem for Midnighter and he won’t be able to shrug off her attacks easily.

Sure. But Midnighter will not just be a problem for her, he will be her end.

He’s been tagged by far less skilled or powerful opponents.

In a straight fight, with no one holding back and everyone is at best (the conditions of this fight). When has this happened?

One slip up and it’s over.

You act like Gamora would one shot him. She won't land a killing blow on him, not with his speed or Battle Computer. And any shot she does land he can live through and fight through, and eventually heal from. HEck, open heart surgery didn't bother him one bit.

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Meanwhile, if Midnighter does land hits on Gamora, she can take them and heal from them quickly and continue the battle.

Are you saying this because you think Midnighter's strikes are only blunt force? Because if so, you should know that both his hands and staff can cut through things like knives.

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Conclusion:

Midnighter has more advantages than Gamora does in terms of stats (he has lifting, durability and burst speed) while Gamora has no edges over him in that department. In terms of skill, Midnighter is no slouch and has defeated opponents more skilled than he is without the use of his computer. Finally, Midnighter still has the indisputable doors and Battle Computer edge.

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#12 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Edited by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio
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Speed

You didn't make claims here [speed] so there isn't really anything for me to debunk. Looking at your feats I think that speed is equal

I don’t see it that way. Everything you’ve shown is reaction based on his battle computer. Overall, Gamora is far faster, Midnighter just has the prediction on his side. I’ll get to it later, but you’ll see soon that Gamora isn’t going to be as easy to take out as those Midnighter has defeated.

I’ve shown Gamora to have movement speeds that are a blur. Here’s another example where she rushes Ronan and knocks him off his feet. She also throws him a great distance. (Annihilation: Ronan #3)

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Gamora may have the agility advantage.

I would agree. Gamora regularly dances around her opponents and very rarely even takes a hit. She’s done so to Thanos, Drax, WM Thor and more. Here’s a few more impressive examples.

  • Scan 1) Flips and leaps through the air over great distances. (Gamora #3)
  • Scan 2) Massive leap to flying vessel. (Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 4 #9)
  • Scans 3-4) Flipping and leaping over giant Badoon warrior. (Guardians of the Galaxy: Tomorrow’s Avengers #1)
  • Scans 5-6) Venom Symbiote can’t touch her. (Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 #21)
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But one thing I did not mention in my opener is Midnighter's burst speed. As you can see, he blitzes a man who claims to be the fastest killer alive and near Flash speeds. Now whether his claims are true doesn't matter, because that man was clearly faster than Midnighter and thus faster than Gamora. But Midnighter blitzed him anyway with only second of burst speed.

The scan also says that he can only do this one second out of a minute. That means Gamora is faster the rest of the time. And while Midnighter even referred to that speedster as fodder, Gamora is not. Midnighter cannot replicate what he did here to Gamora. An attack like that will not incapacitate her. In my previous post, Gamora was chopped with an axe by one of the Badoon clone troops and it merely scratched her.

All in all, Midnighter is just as fast as Gamora while being slightly less agile without speed burst. With it, he will be able to blitz Gamora to next week. But let's not forget how Midnighter can beat speedsters using his battle computer alone (which I have already showed).

I have yet to see him move as fast as Gamora even with his battle computer anticipating the attacks and projectiles. Gamora has no such computer and does so with pure speed. His burst speed will give him a small advantage out of every minute but as you will see, Midnighter is going to have a hard time doing any real damage to Gamora.

Strength

Her feats are certainly impressive. Especially scans 4-5. However, Midnighter is not so easily outdone. Here he is also striking foes above his weight class such as Etrigan.

Midnighter seems to have a different costume or armor in that scan. Is that just a costume or something else?

As you can see above, he draws blood from Atrocitus's legs using his batons. Atrocitus during this issue was taking on MMH and Apollo and winning.

As far as I know, Atrocitus doesn’t have any piercing durability feats, mostly just energy. Without their rings being used to protect them, aren’t most Lanterns only as durable as their species?

Lastly, here he takes out the Engineer (pretty strong girl) with a headbutt.

Gamora is hard-headed as well. Here she has no issue taking a punch from and headbutting Emma Frost while she is in her diamond form, knocking her down. (Original Sin #4)

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So yeah, Midnighter should be slightly above in terms of pure striking as he drew blood from stronger foes, whereas, Gamora just knocks them back.

Stronger foes you say? I guess you missed this one:

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Hard to top that, but she has made others bleed as well:

  • Scans 1-3) Draws blood from Carol Danvers. (Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 4 #13)
  • Scan 4) Not a punch but her finger nails are able to cut Ronan. (Annihilation: Ronan #3)
  • Scans 5-6) Maxam, who can fight with Power Gem Drax, wipes his lip from Gamora’s assault. Notice the blitz while he's talking too. (Warlock and the Infinity Watch #40)
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I’m sure there would be more, but I do believe a lot of comics generally cut back on the blood to limit violence (not Midnighter comics lol). Regardless, Gamora packs a huge punch. But let’s not forget she has a sword also.

If Gamora determines she needs it, she always has Godslayer to rely on. More likely than not it will cut through your weapons like butter and obviously will cut Midnighter no problem as well as even her regular sword can do so.

  • Scan 1) Godslayer can be pulled from another dimension at any time. (Annihilation: Ronan #3)
  • Scan 2) Godslayer kills Nova Centurions. (Nova Vol. 4 #10)
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I honestly don’t think she will even need to use this. Any sword will do against Midnighter. I figured I would just throw this out to not introduce something new in the final post of the debate.

Durability

I'd like to see those [better durability feats for Gamora].

My pleasure.

  • Scans 1-2) Tanks the power of Ronan’s Universal Weapon. (Annihilation: Ronan #3)
  • Scans 3-4) Gamora takes the full heat of a star in a Dyson Sphere. (Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 #3)
  • Scans 5-6) Gamora is smashed through multiple buildings by Hala. (Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 4 #4)
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Notice in her fight with Hala that she is smashed through a building and still in fighting condition. Then she is smashed through another and makes a massive indentation in another. She is still getting to her feet after this. Hala, a far superior opponent, has to beat on her more. Gamora was still not unconscious from this after the fight.

Gamora was enhanced by Thanos to be the ultimate killer. Her skeleton is virtually indestructible. (Warlock and the Infinity Watch #9)

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Because Midnighter's best is him taking a blast that previously leveled multiple buildings. Granted he was out of commission for a few days after.

I think we’re missing the meat and potatoes from that scan, but regardless it sounds like Midnighter merely survived. Chances are that Gamora would still be able to fight if she were in this same scenario.

Logan was just being nice. His regen is way better than that, he wouldn't even pause from getting stabbed.

Because Logan is always nice. But she still healed within moments, which is better than the healing factor you’ve shown for Midnighter.

And as I showed earlier, Midnighter wouldn't pause from getting stabbed and as you will see from the section below, stabbings don't matter that much either.

We’ll get to it, but your scans literally show the opposite.

He also claims that he is unkillable and that a destroyed heart would only slow him down (Parasite had his powers).

Well it’s a good thing his main weakness is such a simple thing to figure out. I’m pretty sure being the deadliest assassin in the universe that Gamora would be going for heart and head.

Skill

I believe I have already showed scans of Midnighter doing similar things. In fact here he is, also taking groups of people (or rather a person with clones, he is taking down Multiplex).

Multiplex is basically fodder, just a lot of it. I took him effort to defeat Kate Spencer (Manhunter) who was killing his clones left and right (she has no powers). He even dogpiled Captain Cold and Cold was no worse for the wear as he was not even stunned. But after this fight, Midnighter was shown to be covered with bruises. While impressive to defeat him, it shows that Midnighter takes hits regularly and can be hurt even by street level opponents. Gamora is far more powerful and deadly.

Let is see how Midnighter performs against another similarly skilled fighter in Prometheus (who has the skills of the world's greatest martial artists including Batman and Midnighter himself).

As far as skill goes, this is damn impressive. But much like above, Prometheus has no enhanced strength and is able to put a hurting on Midnighter. Prometheus also doesn’t have much in the durability department either, yet it takes a lot of effort for Midnighter to put him down. Gamora outclasses Prometheus by a great margin in those two areas. Skill is arguable as well.

As you can see, not only did he beat Promethueus without his Battle Computer. He also did it after getting stabbed.

Earlier, you said Midnighter “wouldn’t pause” from getting stabbed. Yet here he is, stabbed through the gut and crumpled on the floor at Prometheus’ mercy. Had Prometheus decided to not monologue, he could have killed Midnighter. That’s exactly what Gamora will do.

This shows incredible pain tolerance and skill. So as you can see, even if Gamora was as skilled as DC's best combined she wouldn't even be able to hold her own (as Prometheus only lasted that long due to the Battle Computer being blocked and Middy being stabbed prior).

The battle computer will give Midnighter some advantage and allow him to make some connections but ultimately they won’t matter. Midnighter goes from making a high tier bleed (less often) to being bloodied up by street tier foes (more often). That’s with and without his computer. Meanwhile Gamora consistently does damage to high tiers and takes hits from them.

The Battle Computer

[regarding the BC’s infallibility] Basically yes.

Well, that’s a no limits if I ever heard one. You yourself have provided quite a few scans of him getting hit and getting hurt. Just because he can see probabilities doesn’t mean he can avoid or prevent them all.

But Midnighter very clearly was going easy on Dick. He even says that he is pissed off then he draws blood from Dick, he then says in the last panel "I'm done going eas-" so Dick only landed shots because Midnighter allowed him too. Midnighter won't be allowing Gamora anything.

So he’s just allowing himself to be hit for what purpose? If he can truly see every outcome, why not avoid the attacks all together? How do you get pissed when you know what’s going to happen? Because getting hit once is what pissed him off.

I’m leaning towards “going easy” was not hitting him as hard as he could or stopping asking questions. Or going for a kill. He mentions that Dick is “Disciplined, but not averse to improvisation. You fight like jazz.” That to me says he is difficult to predict. Just like Gamora.

Seconds later he was also blasted by another character. That shows me that the battle computer has to focus on what’s happening. Every instance so far shows Midnighter facing off against his foe. What happens when he loses track of Gamora due to her speed and agility advantage? Or when he takes a few shots and needs to refocus or heal? There’s a reason that the battle computer runs new simulations every second: because it cannot possibly predict the entire outcome of an event based on one instant. It’s only worked like that when Midnighter saw himself finishing the fight in that first moment, typically against fodder.

When Midnighter was fighting Deadshot he just got of being tortured. So there's that. And there's the fact that with his perfect aim, Deadshot put him in situation where taking the shot was the best option, Gamora isn't going to be doing that.

You’ve already shown Midnighter to take shots on other occasions. Is it really improbable that the deadliest woman in the universe won’t put him in a position to take a hit when fodder can?

Gamora can process a situation a million and one times a second? Cause if not, I don't see why this matters in this fight.,

This is fair enough but it was more an example to show the battle computer has weaknesses. As I’ve gone through above, skilled fighters fare much better against Midnighter. It’s because of ability, reaction, muscle memory and pure skill.

[regarding Dreamwar] A. that entire event was PIS filled, you had stuff like Grifter killing Dr. Fate with bullets or Supes OHKOing Majestic or Spartan being taken out by Batman, etc.

We all know Batman can beat anyone…

Joking aside, sure there might be PIS in the event, but that doesn’t mean everything is PIS.

B. The event basically never happened, as the DC characters were constructs and the Wildstorm characters were just dreaming.

True, but the DC constructs were just as real as their counterparts. Midnighter’s battle computer worked just fine on them as well.

And worst of all C. Midnighter has fought and beat someone crazy before, in Joker's assistant, Harley Quin. He beat her with ridiculous ease.

We all know Harley’s madness doesn’t compare to Joker’s. Why I don’t consider this PIS is because this seems consistent with Joker’s character. For example, even Martian Manhunter has had difficulty with navigating Joker’s mind and even when he forced Joker to ‘become sane’ he could only do so for a moment. Joker’s insanity is portrayed as something beyond reason. This leads me to believe that if you don’t know what you are going to do next, like a fighter of Gamora’s caliber, then she will be harder to predict.

The entire muscle memory thing to counter the Battle Computer is based on weak evidence tbh. Midnighter isn't Mr. X or the Gorgon, he doesn't read minds. He assess and simulates a situation a million times an instant. What you are thinking or how you fight does not matter to him. Here he is explaining it in his first N52 issue, where he claims he has won a fight before it has even begun (before the other fighter could even think of their moves).

I believe I have covered all of this. It’s not weak evidence when it literally happens with skilled fighters like Dick Grayson.

Gamora is not a speedster. Especially not compared to Midnighter.

This was covered as well. She certainly has movement speed far beyond what you’ve shown for Midnighter.

Sure. But Midnighter will not just be a problem for her, he will be her end.

On average, Midnighter doesn’t have the strength to overcome Gamora’s durability and he doesn’t have the durability to overcome Gamora’s strength. He is able to be fazed by broken bones and stab wounds certainly long enough for Gamora to end the fight. His weapons will do little damage to Gamora and she heals faster than he does.

[regarding Midnighter being hit by less skilled/powerful opponents] In a straight fight, with no one holding back and everyone is at best (the conditions of this fight). When has this happened?

Multiplex. Grayson. Prometheus (less powerful). I’m sure there is more.

You act like Gamora would one shot him. She won't land a killing blow on him, not with his speed or Battle Computer. And any shot she does land he can live through and fight through, and eventually heal from. HEck, open heart surgery didn't bother him one bit.

If Gamora puts her sword through his torso it will be game over. I’ll be fair and give it a two shot for the killing blow. He’s already said that these would “slow him down” and we have seen it as well. You provided the scans.

He is not going to shrug off any connecting punches either.

Are you saying this because you think Midnighter's strikes are only blunt force? Because if so, you should know that both his hands and staff can cut through things like knives.

It will take more than what kills fodder to kill Gamora. A full blow axe swing causes a flesh wound for her. And she will heal nearly instantly from such an attack. You can't cut through her bones.

As it Stands So Far

Midnighter has more advantages than Gamora does in terms of stats (he has lifting, durability and burst speed) while Gamora has no edges over him in that department. In terms of skill, Midnighter is no slouch and has defeated opponents more skilled than he is without the use of his computer. Finally, Midnighter still has the indisputable doors and Battle Computer edge.

Lifting strength hardly matters in a fight. Gamora far surpasses Midnighter in durability. Midnighter’s burst speed is only a second while Gamora holds the speed advantage the rest of the time. Gamora is more agile as well and has far more striking power that is consistent compared to Midnighter’s outlier of making Etrigan spit a little blood.

While Midnighter’s skill is more emphasized, Gamora’s is of course highly implied and she has multiple examples of dancing around her opponents. In fact, she rarely ever takes hits.

Gamora actually has an answer to the Doors if you chose to use them. The only real advantage Midnighter has is his battle computer. It’s really the only reason he can survive a prolonged encounter with Gamora. But it is not infallible as you claim and the hits Gamora lands will be painful and eventually deadly.

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#20 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

Middy showing Gamora how much chance she has to win
Middy showing Gamora how much chance she has to win

Final Counters: Speed

I don’t see it that way. Everything you’ve shown is reaction based on his battle computer.

Let me fix that.

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Overall, Gamora is far faster, Midnighter just has the prediction on his side.I’ll get to it later, but you’ll see soon that Gamora isn’t going to be as easy to take out as those Midnighter has defeated.

Now I won't lie, you could argue some of Midnighter's speed feats rely on his Battle Computer but I can't see why that matter considering he has access to it here. Also, assuming that everything he does is just prediction is pretty wrong as you will see.

I’ve shown Gamora to have movement speeds that are a blur. Here’s another example where she rushes Ronan and knocks him off his feet. She also throws him a great distance. (Annihilation: Ronan #3)

Yes, blur speeds against a brick. Not sure how that reinforces your claim seeing how Middy is FTE.

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Authority issue 2, read it for more awesome moments

And that was against someone fast enough to fly from a building to the sky in a second and escape Apollo (although he did blast Apollo in the face first but Apollo recovered instantly).

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Here is more proof of that person being as fast if not faster than Apollo (all this happened in issue 2, I told you it was awesome).

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So yeah, Middy was FTE to someone at least as fast as Apollo (this guy) and there is no way you can claim that feat had anything to do with prediction.

I would agree. Gamora regularly dances around her opponents and very rarely even takes a hit. She’s done so to Thanos, Drax, WM Thor and more. Here’s a few more impressive examples.

As I said, she is more agile, but she is not faster. So while I can't show Middy leaping and dodging to get around like Gamora, it's not because of lack of speed, it's just not his style. But he can do as many flips as Gamora can if he wants to.

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He can even do flips while dodging and catching bullets (this scan comes after the scan I posted above, so he still has no computer here).

Neo wishes he was this cool
Neo wishes he was this cool

Although for your last claim, I can do you two better.

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As you can see he is untouched in both instances except he actually gets hits in (unlike Gamora who had to wait for Venom to open himself by charging) and he is fighting people tiers above Venom (at least Jack is, Apollo Lite should be).

The scan also says that he can only do this one second out of a minute. That means Gamora is faster the rest of the time.

Yeah, Gamora is not faster. How many seconds do you think it would take QS with Cassandra Cain's skill and precog to beat Gamora? Because that is essentially what Middy becomes, and I highly doubt the answer is more than 1. Also about that whole one second thing Middy later states that he uses his burst speed every time Waller blinked so it is much more likely that he can only use his full speed every second (which he doesn't need against Gamora).

And while Midnighter even referred to that speedster as fodder, Gamora is not.

I have no doubt he would call Gamora a fodder too, you can't take his word for it. If you take the taunts of a bad@ss as canon then everyone Backlash fights is a rookie.

Midnighter cannot replicate what he did here to Gamora. An attack like that will not incapacitate her. In my previous post, Gamora was chopped with an axe by one of the Badoon clone troops and it merely scratched her.

Actually that attacked only scratched her due to angle, you can see her moving forward as the axe was moving downward so a deep scratch was all it should be able to muster. Also who said Middy will use the exact same attack? His computer will tell him the best course of action (and your unpredictability argument even if true will do squat to stop that) which mean he will probably do one of these

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Or since your bones a re so tough, he can kill Gamora Mortal Kombat style

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I have yet to see him move as fast as Gamora even with his battle computer anticipating the attacks and projectiles. Gamora has no such computer and does so with pure speed.

Well now you have seen Middy go fast, even Gamora thinks he can't be that fast (and yes, it is a joke but the place was called Gamorra so I couldn't resist).

His burst speed will give him a small advantage out of every minute but as you will see, Midnighter is going to have a hard time doing any real damage to Gamora.

Hmm, that's underselling. Middy literally blitzed a guy with speed comparable to the Flash, that is a game changing advantage IMO and at the very least it should be considered more than just a small advantage.

Final Counters: Strength

Midnighter seems to have a different costume or armor in that scan. Is that just a costume or something else?

Just a costume to make him distinct from N52 Middy since IIRC the Storm Watch series was going on the same time as his (but I believe it was confirmed that both Midnighters are the same person and in the same continuity, not that it matters cause I have composite).

As far as I know, Atrocitus doesn’t have any piercing durability feats, mostly just energy. Without their rings being used to protect them, aren’t most Lanterns only as durable as their species?

Batons are blunt force. Also I don't really know why you are asking about his feats without the ring, he has the ring in the scan. Here is Atro tanking blunt force and energy attacks from his corpse and not bleeding though (the first panel is particularly hilarious).

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Also he does have ringless durability feats as shown here (even though I still don't get why it matters). This feat was Pre-52 but GL's continuity is a mix of P52, N52 and Rebirth so it is still canon AFAIK.

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Gamora is hard-headed as well. Here she has no issue taking a punch from and headbutting Emma Frost while she is in her diamond form, knocking her down. (Original Sin #4)

That's cute. Engineer smiles after a punch from Atom, what can Emma do?

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Also, don't think I missed it cause I just saw Emma tag Gamora.

Stronger foes you say? I guess you missed this one:

No that one is just clearly PIS to me, Thanos and Gamora were just playing around like they do (here Thanos is, literally playing pretend with Gamora). Unless Gamora is stronger than Silver Surfer and Black Bolt (who couldn't make him flinch) in which case GG, man, you win.

Hard to top that, but she has made others bleed as well:

Your next few scans were actually surprisingly good although Captain Marvel is not comparable with Atro or Ertigan IMO, nails aren't really strength and she did not draw blood from that guy. But overall those scans prove that Midnighter's advantage is small one (and yes, I maintain that he has a small advantage since his scans were way more clear as to what was happening).

I’m sure there would be more, but I do believe a lot of comics generally cut back on the blood to limit violence (not Midnighter comics lol). Regardless, Gamora packs a huge punch. But let’s not forget she has a sword also.

Not really, most powerful hits I see do have blood. They only put blood when needed.

If Gamora determines she needs it, she always has Godslayer to rely on. More likely than not it will cut through your weapons like butter and obviously will cut Midnighter no problem as well as even her regular sword can do so.

So I spooked you enough to bring it? Nice :P. Although like you said that sword is just going to function like a normal one, meaning it will be skillfully dodged.

I honestly don’t think she will even need to use this. Any sword will do against Midnighter. I figured I would just throw this out to not introduce something new in the final post of the debate.

Conversely, I don't see Gamora winning even with the weapon. But that is up to the voters now.

Also, just throwing it out there but Middy has good striking feats against the environment as well.

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Final Counters: Durability

My pleasure.

Thank you. I will say that all scans were impressive, however only the last one was actually applicable due to the other being temperature/energy durability. As for the last one, I've pretty much already countered it in the first post (look at it for the scans)

Now I may not know all that much about Gamora but I am convinced that Midnighter holds the distinct edge in this department. For starters he tanked being hit through several cars.

And that was after surviving an explosion that blew up the top of a building.

And I find that sequence to be just as impressive, but then again it's up in the air.

Notice in her fight with Hala that she is smashed through a building and still in fighting condition. Then she is smashed through another and makes a massive indentation in another. She is still getting to her feet after this. Hala, a far superior opponent, has to beat on her more. Gamora was still not unconscious from this after the fight.

Which is impressive, although you might be thinking that is what I meant by building buster, you are mistaken. This is what I mean.

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Because Logan is always nice.

Either that or he thinks healing from just bone and just blood is comparable to being stabbed.

But she still healed within moments, which is better than the healing factor you’ve shown for Midnighter.

Save your breath, because here it is happening

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And yes, he did technically pause but he was still able to talk and was up and running a few seconds later. And btw, I am of the opinion that healing from a beating like this (2) is better than healing from a stab (showed him heal from it in post 1).

Well it’s a good thing his main weakness is such a simple thing to figure out. I’m pretty sure being the deadliest assassin in the universe that Gamora would be going for heart and head.

You know what is not easy to figure out? The fact that he has two working hearts.

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Also, btw Middy can heal from his brains being blown up too as Waller said although he would forget everything (showed the scan twice already, it was when he was escaping). It isn't applicable here but it shows just how potent his regen is.

Final Counters: Skill

Multiplex is basically fodder, just a lot of it. I took him effort to defeat Kate Spencer (Manhunter) who was killing his clones left and right (she has no powers). He even dogpiled Captain Cold and Cold was no worse for the wear as he was not even stunned. But after this fight, Midnighter was shown to be covered with bruises. While impressive to defeat him, it shows that Midnighter takes hits regularly and can be hurt even by street level opponents. Gamora is far more powerful and deadly.

Actually we don't get a clear picture of him in the last scan. So I can't tell, looks to me as if he was just covered in Multiplex's blood. But do you know who was tagged by fodder though? Miss Gamora.

As far as skill goes, this is damn impressive. But much like above, Prometheus has no enhanced strength and is able to put a hurting on Midnighter. Prometheus also doesn’t have much in the durability department either, yet it takes a lot of effort for Midnighter to put him down. Gamora outclasses Prometheus by a great margin in those two areas.

As far as I know that was Prometheus' only N52 fight so you can't say that he lacks in those areas just because it wasn't shown.

Skill is arguable as well.

Nah, DC's best easily trump her.

Earlier, you said Midnighter “wouldn’t pause” from getting stabbed. Yet here he is, stabbed through the gut and crumpled on the floor at Prometheus’ mercy.

As I said before a hit to the heart puts him down. And while that didn't hit the heart, it did go through him so it likely cut his arteries. And as I said, Wildstorm Middy has feats of getting open hearth surgery without flinching and fighting after getting stabbed through. He also has this feat which is what prompted me to say that.

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Bloodied chest, aching body in first page, looks fine in the last panal

Had Prometheus decided to not monologue, he could have killed Midnighter. That’s exactly what Gamora will do.

If Gamora can even land a scratch on his chest, but given how I think he has the speed and precog to weave around anything Gamora has, I don't think she can.

The battle computer will give Midnighter some advantage and allow him to make some connections but ultimately they won’t matter. Midnighter goes from making a high tier bleed (less often) to being bloodied up by street tier foes (more often). That’s with and without his computer. Meanwhile Gamora consistently does damage to high tiers and takes hits from them.

This is objectively false. If we give you the befit of the doubt and ignore context it is Multiplex, Grayson, Prometheus against Apollo, Jack, Etrigan, Atrocitus, Martian Manhunter, Lobo, Engineer, Spartan linked feats for the ones I hadn't shown yet)( and the list goes on, it literally goes on since asides from named characters I didn't mention Midnighter draws blood from a monsters like this

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What did I say drawed blood from? I meant bloody murdered (using a bullet that negated his immortality) That guy was also the one who killed Apollo back in issue one (seen here and here). Apollo, already having feats of wrecking mechs the page he was introduced. Heck Middy was even singled Earth's biggest threat by aliens. Consistent Street level my butt.

The Battle Computer

Well, that’s a no limits if I ever heard one.

*Basically, yes. I only say that because it seems that you are so sure that Gamora defeats it that you don't seem to make an argument of her winning while he can predict her, only that he can't (which is false since he sure can).

You yourself have provided quite a few scans of him getting hit and getting hurt. Just because he can see probabilities doesn’t mean he can avoid or prevent them all.

True, but he isn't fighting Superman here. He is fighting Gamora, and if you think she can beat him in a million possibilities then I just don't know what to say.

So he’s just allowing himself to be hit for what purpose? If he can truly see every outcome, why not avoid the attacks all together? How do you get pissed when you know what’s going to happen? Because getting hit once is what pissed him off.

It's his character. He literally says it here.

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I’m leaning towards “going easy” was not hitting him as hard as he could or stopping asking questions. Or going for a kill. He mentions that Dick is “Disciplined, but not averse to improvisation. You fight like jazz.” That to me says he is difficult to predict. Just like Gamora.

He was literally going easy, he murder stomps Dick when he wants.

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I kinda see you as Dick here, assuming Middy is not as good as he is but nope, he planned it (and if you ask why didn't he do this and that to avoid getting hit, it's cause Middy is a BA and he isn't allergic to getting hit).

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I mean, he sees 1 million possible scenarios every second, do you honestly think some jazz could fool him?

Seconds later he was also blasted by another character. That shows me that the battle computer has to focus on what’s happening.

Huh, that's a pretty weird assumption assumption to say the least. Here he is running a million scenarios against a million opponents.

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So either he can focus on a million things at once or your assumption based on one scan that was never stated is incorrect. You tell me.

Every instance so far shows Midnighter facing off against his foe. What happens when he loses track of Gamora due to her speed and agility advantage?

Then he would be in an alternate reality where Gamora had the speed advantage. And him lose track to Gamora? I showed him tagging Impetus in my first post. In case you didn't know Impetus is fast enough to run around a area in seconds and dodge lasers with ease, he is basically Windstorm's Flash. He also looked like a zombie cause he is one, he died and was brought back, long story.

Or when he takes a few shots and needs to refocus or heal?

Again, with speed alone I don't see Gamora landing anything worse than what Zealot did (just a side note against Zealot he did not have his computer AFAIK) and that would be stretching to say Gamora lands that and as you saw he fought just as well with the stab. Now with the computer? It's never gonna happen not in a million scenarios.

There’s a reason that the battle computer runs new simulations every second: because it cannot possibly predict the entire outcome of an event based on one instant. It’s only worked like that when Midnighter saw himself finishing the fight in that first moment, typically against fodder.

Midnighter #7 volume 1. Please read it. Because it ends with him saying that he sees an event a day in advance and chooses exactly what happens in that day.

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And that isn't some hyperbole statement, the story was literally backwards to illustrate his point. He also calculated exactly how he could have started a world war (which is doing exactly what he said he couldn't, it's almost like he hears you and wants to prove you wrong, lol).

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You’ve already shown Midnighter to take shots on other occasions. Is it really improbable that the deadliest woman in the universe won’t put him in a position to take a hit when fodder can?

Why do you keep saying fodder? Is it because of Mutiplex? Cause that's the only scan I can remember "fodder" tagging him and that is not nearly enough to say that he gets tagged by fodder. And yes, it is improbable when Jack Hawksmoore and others were clowned by him as I showed earlier.

This is fair enough but it was more an example to show the battle computer has weaknesses. As I’ve gone through above, skilled fighters fare much better against Midnighter. It’s because of ability, reaction, muscle memory and pure skill.

No, you used Multiplex (which is just one showing which we do not even have the full context too), Nightwing (where Middy was clearly holding back and Prometheus (who he fought without his computer and beat him after he was impaled). Maybe Deadshot (who he allowed to hit him) since you talked about him earlier. None of those guys would have even breathed on Middy without his say so if not for the context being on their side.

We all know Batman can beat anyone…

And we all know Middy is just a gay Batman. Which means I accept your concession. :P

Joking aside, sure there might be PIS in the event, but that doesn’t mean everything is PIS.

But it does mean that everything should be questioned (otherwise hey look Middy can harm Doomsday).

True, but the DC constructs were just as real as their counterparts.

Read your scan again because Apollo says "They're as real as we are." nothing about counterparts. So Apollo just says they are as real as any human being, that is it. P;lus Middy even argued back saying they are just constructs.

Midnighter’s battle computer worked just fine on them as well.

Doesn't make him failing on Joker any more PIS.

We all know Harley’s madness doesn’t compare to Joker’s. Why I don’t consider this PIS is because this seems consistent with Joker’s character. For example, even Martian Manhunter has had difficulty with navigating Joker’s mind and even when he forced Joker to ‘become sane’ he could only do so for a moment. Joker’s insanity is portrayed as something beyond reason.

Either way it refutes your unpredictability argument. It is Joker's special blend of crazy that allowed him to do that if anything, saying it applies to everything is like saying MMH can't TP any murderer because BA made him cry.

This leads me to believe that if you don’t know what you are going to do next, like a fighter of Gamora’s caliber, then she will be harder to predict.

Oh? Then why did Harley get fodderized? Are you saying Gamora is more unpredictable than a literally crazy person? Cause if so you will have to prove that and not just with skill scans but with scans like this.

I believe I have covered all of this. It’s not weak evidence when it literally happens with skilled fighters like Dick Grayson.

Literally happens, like Middy wan't holding back at all and it is not like Middy allows people to hit him sometimes IC. If Grayson is so good that he can consistently tag a guy who beats people more skilled than Batman (Prometheus) and has precog that can predict outcomes a day before then frankly that is either PIS or Grayson himself is more unpredictable than Gamora.

This was covered as well. She certainly has movement speed far beyond what you’ve shown for Midnighter.

Far beyond? Like near Flash level far beyond or Impetus level far beyond? I can't tell, since Middy beat them both. Also the speed advantage is up to the voters right now, but I believe I have countered all of your scans with my own. All you have is agility due to your fighting style.

On average, Midnighter doesn’t have the strength to overcome Gamora’s durability

Hmmm......guess I will just repost

This is objectively false. If we give you the befit of the doubt and ignore context it is Multiplex, Grayson, Prometheus against Apollo, Jack, Etrigan, Atrocitus, Martian Manhunter, Lobo, Engineer, Spartan linked feats for the ones I hadn't shown yet)( and the list goes on, it literally goes on since asides from named characters I didn't mention Midnighter draws blood from a monsters like this

and he doesn’t have the durability to overcome Gamora’s strength.

This is true only because Gamora uses blades weapons, and he is peak human when it comes to that.

He is able to be fazed by broken bones and stab wounds certainly long enough for Gamora to end the fight.

You forget about the one second. What do you get when you add super speed to regen?

His weapons will do little damage to Gamora and she heals faster than he does.

Do you even have any other feat like the one you showed for Gamora? Cause I have showed a lot of pain tolerance/healing feats. In fact just to show how fast he heals, here he is healing his eyes while speaking (this is the best timefrime one can give, and btw healing a complex organ like the eyes is way harder than healing a simple open wound stab).

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Multiplex. Grayson. Prometheus (less powerful). I’m sure there is more.

But I kinda asked you for examples where Middy isn't holding back and 2 out of 3 those he was (by choice against Dick by no Battle Comp against Prometheus) so, I don't see what all this is about really.

If Gamora puts her sword through his torso it will be game over. I’ll be fair and give it a two shot for the killing blow. He’s already said that these would “slow him down” and we have seen it as well. You provided the scans.

Blademaster was just as optimistic.

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Eminence of Blades too (and this whole fight was a low showing for Middy btw)

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And so did Zealot (while Middy didn't want to even fight)

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I show this because he can likely catch or break any weapon that isn't the Godslayer, at least from what you have shown in terms of her gear (which is kinda nothing unless I missed it). Or he can catch your wrist if you use Godslayer.

He is not going to shrug off any connecting punches either.

If she gets the chance to land a hit and wastes it on a punch, she wouldn't be very smart. Look at him smile at a Red Lantern afer he was slammed into the ground.

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It will take more than what kills fodder to kill Gamora. A full blow axe swing causes a flesh wound for her. And she will heal nearly instantly from such an attack. You can't cut through her bones.

Or he can tear her spine out (as I showed), which is lifting strength btw. Or he can use pressure points on her (just cause she can too doesn't mean she is immune to it) and I showed him using that on aliens and monsters earlier so you can't claim alien and call it a day.

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As you can see, he one shot a dude with a touch. Here is another that I find super cool

Midnighter>MMH and Jack
Midnighter>MMH and Jack

Battle Computer/N52 V Wildstrom

It almost seems as if I didn't show enough BC seams since you were using stuff like Dick tagging Middy as a feat to show his BC failing (and btw, all of Middy's fights with Dick are context heavy). So here I will post more feats for the PC so that the voters and you can hopefully see why that is crazy for Dick to tag a composite Middy. I will try not to reuse feats I have already posted

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Here are some statements of Middy saying he can calc everything (which he basically says every issue he is in), even counterattacks, before a fight and someone confining it.

Here it is in action

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Authority Revolution 11, this is also a cool issue

As you can see he tricked Apollo and Doctor, 2 of the most powerful heroes in Wildstorm into doing his bidding.

I also want to show the difference between the two versions of Middy since I am sure you will keep saying Multiplex, Dick and Prometheus even after this post (all of that happened in N52). This is N52 Grifter vs Middy

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Again

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And this is Wildstorm Midnigter vs Grifter

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Again

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Grifter was only saved by Cap, here he isn't

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As you can see there is a clear distinction to as is happening. Yes, Grifter did also get a power level change but his feats for the most part are nearly the same in both versions so I used him as the guide (that and the difference would be super clear this way). Also this wasn't all their fights, for example in the N52 Middy still beats Grifter, lol.

How The Fight Goes:

To me it comes down to Middy Battle Computer and the fact that he just lives for violence. Take a look at this, in the fight below he fought a guy with exactly the same enhancements as him so neither had an advantage and yet our Middy pretty much stomped.

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Start of the fight is here.

Yes, Gamora fights differently and has a sword but the point of this was to show you that if Gamora was as good as him, he would still slaughter her.

Also about the BC, even if Gamora was so good that out of 99,950 scenarios she beats him........Midnighter still wins.

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In reverse

Counter Conclusion:

Lifting strength hardly matters in a fight. Gamora far surpasses Midnighter in durability. Midnighter’s burst speed is only a second while Gamora holds the speed advantage the rest of the time. Gamora is more agile as well and has far more striking power that is consistent compared to Midnighter’s outlier of making Etrigan spit a little blood.

Covered everything. It's really up to voters. Also lifting strength is what allows him to tear off limbs and spines.

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While Midnighter’s skill is more emphasized, Gamora’s is of course highly implied and she has multiple examples of dancing around her opponents. In fact, she rarely ever takes hits.

Midnighter is the same.

Gamora actually has an answer to the Doors if you chose to use them.

Did I miss it? Don't remember seeing the counter.

The only real advantage Midnighter has is his battle computer. It’s really the only reason he can survive a prolonged encounter with Gamora.

I'm being (or trying to be) respectable and objective saying their stats and skill are close, but if you really think that Middy needs his BC to even have a prolonged fight then I must be too soft on you.

But it is not infallible as you claim and the hits Gamora lands will be painful and eventually deadly.

I only call it that because of your arguments and statements that might distract readers from the truth that his BC can see a million possible scenarios against everyone he faces that isn't Joker or a telepath.

Conclusion:

I will try to instead write this like a voter instead of a debater, so I will try to be as unbiased as possible (though I can't help but be a bit biased). Anyway my thoughts on the fight are as follows

Stats

Honestly you did a good job here, I came in thinking Middy would have almost all advantages but you made that neither of them have any real advantage against the other in any category (though as a debater I maintain a slight strength advantage).

Skill:

Without the BC I knew Gamora was going to be just as good as Midddy and you proved me right, she is every bit the fighter that he is.

Battle Computer:

For me this is where things got unstable, I for one did not think your counters were solid, this is also where you started pushing any small advantage you can and making it seem larger than it is and where you tried downplaying Middy's own skill.

Overall

It's a good fight but I think the 1 second speed, BC and Doors give Middy the win against her agility and Godslayer advantages. You can argue stats but I think that was too close to call.

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#25 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio

I am going to try and be concise so I will not be countering every point, just the ones that matter most to the debate.

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Speed

Authority issue 2, read it for more awesome moments

I took your advice and read through it and not a single member of the Authority had any issue whatsoever with the speed of those clones [1][2]. He has fast travel speed, that’s all. You’ve already shown that Midnighter can increase his speed momentarily and do a blitz at close range.

Gamora blitzes armed opponents in straight lines over open terrain. And she has no time limit on this speed. She also isn’t some fodder mutant or a featless no-name speedster who claims he’s as fast as the Flash. Midnighter has speed for a short time over short distances.

She's fast enough to deflect Spectrum's attacks:

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Strength

[regarding Atrocitus] Also I don't really know why you are asking about his feats without the ring, he has the ring in the scan.

I’m pointing out that lanterns don’t particularly have high durability and need their rings to protect them to a certain degree. I would say if he’s bleeding, the ring isn’t doing its job.

Engineer smiles after a punch from Atom, what can Emma do?

In her diamond form, Emma has taken hits from Colossus and even World War Hulk [1][2][3]. Gamora knocked her on her ass.

According to the respect thread you sent me to, Engineer has pretty much one durability feat: getting punched by Captain Atom. But yet we have another durability feat of getting KO’ed by a headbutt from Midnighter. So is Midnighter stronger than Atom, or was Atom pulling his punches trying to reason with a fellow hero?

Also, don't think I missed it cause I just saw Emma tag Gamora.

She was fighting someone else and Emma jumped in. That won’t be an issue in this fight.

No that one is just clearly PIS to me, Thanos and Gamora were just playing around like they do (here Thanos is, literally playing pretend with Gamora). Unless Gamora is stronger than Silver Surfer and Black Bolt (who couldn't make him flinch) in which case GG, man, you win.

Thanos is extremely durable but he can bleed. And those aren’t the best example since the Surfer and Black Bolt have both made Thanos bleed [1][2].

While Gamora isn’t as strong, she still has an extremely consistent record fighting powerhouses and even taking victories. Here’s an interesting example of Midnighter taking on someone in the range Gamora dances with on the daily:

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Regis is basically a featless strong man. He was so superior to Midnighter that he could do nothing. What makes this extra interesting is the Battle Computers lack of action. It was working perfectly yet found zero ways to win (or even evade or put up any resistance). This brings us to an interesting point: the Battle Computer does not find solutions to a fight; it merely runs probabilities and outcomes.

So Midnighter likes to talk the talk (just as you claim) about his Battle Computer and how awesome it is when the odds are in his favor but in reality it doesn’t solve any and all problems. And as you will see, this is not an isolated incident.

(For the record, I’m not saying Gamora is as strong as Regis. She can however match his durability feats.) She’s been able to grapple with characters like Ronan and Angela, who obviously surpass Regis in strength based on feats.

Durability

Which is impressive, although you might be thinking that is what I meant by building buster, you are mistaken. This is what I mean.

Here you showed off the sonic scream that destroyed buildings. I’m really not sure why you are because they took Midnighter out of the fight and he was hospitalized. He merely survived it. I’d be willing to say Gamora would be out of the fight temporarily at most were she in the same scenario.

And yes, he did technically pause [after stabbed by Zealot] but he was still able to talk and was up and running a few seconds later.

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So again we see Midnighter get stabbed and it slow him down? You’re gift wrapping this for me. Like Midnighter, Gamora was engineered and trained to be a killing machine. Unlike Midnighter, she has no sentimentality or reservations. One stab is going to give the pause Gamora needs to land a killing blow.

And btw, I am of the opinion that healing from a beating like this (2) is better than healing from a stab (showed him heal from it in post 1).

This brings us to our second example of the Battle Computer providing nothing for Midnighter. Seth destroyed Midnighter. But the most interesting part was the rematch. You’d think the “gay Batman” could come up with plan before he chose to confront Seth again, but alas, this was not the case.

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He got beat so badly they didn’t want to do it on panel again. You bring up PIS, but plot is what drives the Battle Computer. As I said, it doesn’t actually make solutions to problems, it only runs probable outcomes. So Midnighter is either meant to win or lose (and it would seem spectacularly in either case). There is no plot in this CaV so really this comes down to who has the better overall stats – and that is Gamora.

You know what is not easy to figure out? The fact that he has two working hearts.

Gamora fights aliens across the universe for a living. I’m sure she’ll figure it out.

Overall, Midnighter’s healing factor works just too slowly to help with a win. We’ve seen multiple times now how devastating a sword thrust can be to him where a second means life or death. Otherwise his best healing feats are from surviving things Gamora wouldn’t even be unconscious from. And this healing took considerable time (such as his beating from Seth, the building busting scream or when he healed his broken neck that took several pages).

Meanwhile, Gamora has more than just durability and healing. She also has stamina. She was forced to fight Monsters of the Badoon for hours on end, so much so that the Brother Royal grew tired of waiting for her to capitulate. (Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 #15-16)

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Monsters of Badoon have given fights to the likes of Colossus, Thing and the Silver Surfer. She fought them for hours over two issues. Her durability and stamina are incredible.

Skills

Actually we don't get a clear picture of him in the last scan. So I can't tell, looks to me as if he was just covered in Multiplex's blood.

He’s all bruised up. He took a lot of lumps.

As I said before a hit to the heart puts him down.

Nice.

And then you show these scans of another slow heal? “… just need a minute…” Midnighter doesn’t have a minute here. Gamora is coming for the kill and she isn’t even the type to give last words.

Battle Computer

if you think she can beat him in a million possibilities then I just don't know what to say.

We’ve seen multiple instances now where there was no possibility Midnighter could win. Here’s an example of it not even knowing what was going to happen. It has other limitations as well and the fight with Dick shows that certain fighting styles are less predictable.

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Gamora has mastered at least 83.4% of known space cultures martial arts. Mastered. If Midnighter is comparable to Batman then he knows what, 127 styles? What percent of Gamora’s knowledge do you think he has? What percentage of attacks Gamora uses would be familiar or predictable?

It's his character [to allow himself to take hits]. He literally says it here.

Good, then he can allow himself to take a few here. He’ll soon find out that Gamora hits 100 times harder than Dick Grayson. That will be another “… just need a minute…” moment.

I mean, he sees 1 million possible scenarios every second, do you honestly think some jazz could fool him?

It did and Midnighter commented that it did. Another point to make regarding the computer is why does it need to keep running simulations if it already knows the best outcome the first time? That’s because it can only go so far in the future and it cannot solve for the best outcome. A million probabilities is not all possibilities.

Then he would be in an alternate reality where Gamora had the speed advantage. And him lose track to Gamora? I showed him tagging Impetus in my first post. In case you didn't know Impetus is fast enough to run around a area in seconds and dodge lasers with ease, he is basically Windstorm's Flash.

So he ran in a field and dodged some lasers and he has the reaction speed of the Flash? These are hardly fantastic showings for a speedster.

Gamora certainly has a speed advantage over larger areas and over time. Flash wannabe can move fast when he’s motivated to do so (just like that clone flying with Apollo). But both can still be distracted and blitzed since Midnighter is capable of those speeds at a short distance and he’s good with banter. There will be no monologues from Gamora.

I don't see Gamora landing anything worse than what Zealot did (just a side note against Zealot he did not have his computer AFAIK)

That is more than enough for Gamora to kill Midnighter or at incapacitate him long enough for win conditions here. And the battle computer was working perfectly.

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Zealot was winning that fight with and without weapons. After seeing this, I have no doubt in my mind that Gamora can comfortably win this fight. Midnighter had to pull a weapon in their unarmed battle and broke their agreement (WildCats Vol. 1 #25).

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That’s when she beat him again and ran him through with her sword. Gamora will do the same but without relishing it like Zealot did because she has no emotional investment in this fight.

Midnighter #7 volume 1. Please read it. Because it ends with him saying that he sees an event a day in advance and chooses exactly what happens in that day.

Really cool issue, but I’ve shown at least three times now where the Battle Computer had no idea what was going on under normal conditions and another where he ran the scenarios prior to the fight and still lost.

For good measure, here’s another example. While fighting Godhead, the Battle Computer decided the best course of action would be to get incapacitated and not help his teammates in any other capacity.

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None of those guys would have even breathed on Middy without his say so if not for the context being on their side.

Or with the plot being on Midnighter’s side. Gamora is consistently holding her own and taking out superior opponents.

lifting strength is what allows him to tear off limbs and spines.

Gamora has skin durable enough to swim in lava and be smashed through multiple buildings and a nearly indestructible skeleton. None of the characters Midnighter has done this to hold a candle to Gamora.

Did I miss it? Don't remember seeing the counter [regarding Doors].

Well, you really didn’t use them that much in your argument. But besides her martial arts prowess and instincts, she has a precog tracking ability. Just that extra sense needed for this type of thing.

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Conclusion

You shouldn’t write how you’d vote before reading the final post…

The advantage I believed Midnighter would get from the Battle Computer has turned out to be negligible. It will help him with Gamora’s agility and vast fighting knowledge but ultimately it cannot find an outcome where he wins.

  • Strength – Gamora has good showings against dozens of powerhouses and even taken some down without really any loses of her own. Stronger characters are shown to dominate Midnighter and he has few instances of him replicating what Gamora is capable of.
  • Durability – Midnighter doesn’t have the strength to damage her enough to slow her down much where Midnighter will need to heal from heavy blows from Gamora. Seconds count so he won’t have a minute to recover. With her super durable skin and indestructible skeleton there’s no reason to believe Midnighter can just pull her apart.
  • Healing – Midnighter heals too slowly from major damage to remain in the fight should he get wounded. Gamora heals more quickly, but due to her durability she is less likely to receive major damage anyway.
  • Speed – This is probably the most comparable in the stats department, but Gamora has shown blur speeds in disadvantageous positions on numerous occasions where Midnighter blitzes from up close while using distraction. Midnighter is quite agile and fast but nothing that Gamora can’t keep up with or outpace.
  • Fighting Ability – Midnighter is indeed top notch here, with or without the computer. But Gamora can keep up no problem and has vastly more martial arts knowledge and ability.
  • Weapons – Midnighter is at a disadvantage here as his club and short blades can only really do superficial damage to Gamora given what it takes to break her skin. On the other hand, we’ve seen multiple times where blades have caused major problems for Midnighter. And Gamora has no ordinary sword. His baton couldn’t even match Zealot’s blade, it has no chance against Godslayer.
  • Personality - You admit that Midnighter is cocky and holds back. This is not a shared feature of Gamora, who has even killed her teammates and friends to achieve her goals. Immortals fear her.

Gamora has too many advantages in this fight especially if it goes on long, which Gamora’s durability and healing factor will make sure of. Gamora is coming for blood and there is no plot to stop her.

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#29 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by vsw (2931 posts) - - Show Bio

I need to hop in the ring with both of you someday.

Ill attempt to vote on this Soon. If it isn't up within a few days feel free to give me a bump.

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#37 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Y do you keep reusing the same joke. At least spice it up.

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#38 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio

@vsw: I believe you had asked me a while back before my hiatus. I'm slowly working my way back now.

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#39 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by vsw (2931 posts) - - Show Bio

@majinblackheart: Ah. I think i remember that.

Hopefully we can plan out something to do in the future.

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#41 Posted by Nervedamage (862 posts) - - Show Bio

@majinblackheart Same here, this was a fun read. I'll come back around once this is open. Enjoyed both of your points.

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#42 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Nervedamage (862 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for voters

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#46 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@majinblackheart: Wow, that was a more impressive turn out than I thought there would be. Should we close the voting?

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#47 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9602 posts) - - Show Bio

@majinblackheart: Wow, that was a more impressive turn out than I thought there would be. Should we close the voting?

I don't know man, the voting is really close.

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#49 Posted by APEX_pretador (21255 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll see if I vote

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#50 Edited by blackpantherisb (7335 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: @majinblackheart: Excellent CaV. Both of you demonstrated that you knew your characters like the back of your hand, and demonstrated impressive debating ability whilst making arguments for them. Though overall I have to give my vote to @major_hellstrom. Overall I just feel that major edged Majin out a little bit, he demonstrated that Midnighter could hurt beings well above Gamora with ridiculous consistency (like seriously how on earth is Midnighter considered street level?) and he also proved that Midnighter was her match in both speed and durability, and could take an easy edge over her by using his speed burst. He also displayed how it is very consistent for Midnighter to use his lifting strength in combat. And while I wasn't convinced that Midnighter was more skilled than Gamora I think Major definitely showed that Middy was solidly comparable, and could probably outmaneuver her using his door and battle computer.

Majin also did a great job, displaying Gamora's impressive speed and insane durability, as well as showing that she has fantastic and skill. Though I do feel that he lowballed Midnighters strength a little bit, overall I definitely got the impression that it was more consistent for Midnighter to damage high-tiers with his blows than it is for Gamora, yet Majin insisted that Gamora was far more consistent and that Midnighter's showings were high ends, then trying to low-ball Middy with showings against Grayson and Multiplex that Major solidly proved were inconsistent. I also just really felt that Gamora drawing blood from Thanos was an outliner and that, based on this CaV, she didn't have the feats to suggest that that was consistent.

Fantastic read, great debate both of you, but ultimately my vote goes to Midnighter repped by @major_hellstrom