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#1 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

Challenge A Viner - Luther Strode Vs Deathstroke the Terminator:

Luther Strode - @pr0metheus // Deathstroke - @elijah_c_washington
Luther Strode - @pr0metheus // Deathstroke - @elijah_c_washington

Stipulations:

  • No interfearance
  • Pre-Flashpoint Deathstroke/Current Luther Strode
  • Victory only by death
  • No prep or prior knowledge
  • In character but motivated to win
  • Luther Strode is unarmed; Slade is equipped with his standard assortment of swords, guns, knives, and blast staff, but he does not have any explosives and he cannot use his staff's ranged capabilities

Location:

  • No civilians or bystanders of any sort
  • Environmental settings as pictured
  • Combatants start on opposite sides of the hole

No Caption Provided

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#2 Posted by never give up (24994 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#3 Posted by jayskee (4762 posts) - - Show Bio

TV4

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#4 Posted by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#5 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

very nice. T4V please.

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#6 Edited by FukYouRenchamp (7109 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington

Luther Strode

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Strength:

I think these guys are pretty comparable in strength lifting wise, however I still think Luther is superior. The best strength feat I could find for Deathstroke (It's actually pretty hard to find anything that isn't N52 Deathstroke now), was Deathstroke breaking chains like so..

No Caption Provided

He seemed to do it well, even seemed injured during it. However, Luther Strode has done something pretty similar expect far better..

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Luther not only breaks chains like Slade above, but he is chained up over his ENTIRE BODY (Slade is only chained up by the arms) and not only is he far better chained up, He is in an impossible position with literally no leverage whatsoever to get out, while Slade in the above scans can use his feet on the wall behind him to get free.

======================================================

Now Lifting strength doesn't usually come into play in fights, but incase our enemies were to grapple, I just wanted to prove that Luther is superior in that too.

Next up is Striking Strength, don't get me wrong, Slade is a monster when it comes to capability, and while he isn't weak by any means, he just isn't as strong as Luther.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7
  • 1-5: Deathstroke beats Batman, but it takes a dozen or so punches.
  • 6: Deathstroke punches Batman (later punches him repeatedly in the fight), bloodies him but doesn't do any long lasting damage.
  • 7: Kicks Nightwing in the back of the neck, and not only doesn't kill him, Nightwing fights without any indication of damage after.

I mean, you could just chalk this up to really good pain tolerance/durability to Nightwing & Batman, however, Slade has been unable to do it on fodder too:

No Caption Provided

I mean he broke his ribs sure, but he wasn't able to kill him.

However, Luther is so much stronger then that. This is what he does to normal people:

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However, Luther's feats aren't just limited to normal humans. Let's talk about the Gardener:

Who is the Gardener? Well hes a guy that has tanked assault rifle fire without it piercing his skin, and on top of that has tanked Luther Strode shooting himself like an arrow from 500 or so feet:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Now, Why does that matter? Well, because that is Luther Strode holding back

You want to see what happens to the Gardener when Luther stops holding back?

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Durability:

I think the scans above show that Slade can be hurt by Luther, however I just want to state another point. This is what Slade had to say after fighting Batman:

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Now, I want to show why Slade can't hurt Luther with his fists (I'm aware he has more then that for this fight)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Now I know Slade is stronger then these people, but I just wanted to show what happens when regular people try to hurt Luther.

I'm also going to revisit The Gardener for this one, You see the part where I said Luther shoots himself like an Arrow down using the wires? Yes well, he was in the air. How he got up there? The Gardener literally punched him:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Not only did that punch not hurt Luther, he literally sent himself flying back down and still wasn't hurt. I don't see how Slade could legitimately leave any damage on Luther (fist wise)

Speed

Luther is pretty fast himself too, he regularly dodges bullets and appears as a blur.

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Now you can chalk that up to bad aim, but Luther has gone faster then that:

Here (this triples as a intellect/accuracy feat) Luther uses Shooters bullets against him. He throws 6 bullets with enough force to:

  • Hit two bullets out the air.
  • Hit shooter in his knee caps.
  • Hit both of shooters guns out of his hands.
No Caption Provided

Now ignoring that it is a pretty ridiculous bullseye feat itself, I'll shot you while its doubley impressive.

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Skill

Now, I admit Slade definitely has the advantage in skill, however the gap isn't as far as some people might think. Let's explore some of Luther's skill

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9
  • Scan 1: Puts Binder & Jack in a position so neither can move
  • Scan 2: Targeting Jack's achilles heel
  • Scan 3: Countering an attack
  • Scan 4: Taking advantage of the Black Woman's hair
  • Scan 5-6: Using Black Woman's attack against her

Now these are pretty average feats, don't get me wrong, nothing that shows he can keep up with Slade in the skill department, just to show he isn't outclassed. I'm not done yet, but I want to go over something first.

One thing throughout the series that the antagonists were trying to teach Luther was Situationial Awareness, like so:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

However, during a 5 year gap from Legends of Luther Strode --> Legacy of Luther strode, Luther not only learned it but became a master of it.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Heck, a random Hercules Method user was able to slaughter the entire Spartan Army by himself without even being hit:

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Then, there is the creator of the Hercules Method himself, Cain someone who's experience is counted in Millenia

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A guy so knowledgeable that he knew nerve strikes that caused illusions:

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Yet despite having around 10 years of experience, he was able to momentarily match Cain's 10,000+

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Now.. that is just Luther's skill, we haven't even gone into his Pre-cog yet:

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Librarian has even taunted Strode about it before he knew how to use it:

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While Luther can't actually see 1000 moves ahead, he has once again later became a master at it as he was able to exploit it. Revisiting the same scan for added effect:

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If Slade so much as tries to read & predict Luther's moves, he can use this against him and put him in a shit position like the other warriors.

The Fight Itself

First off Luther will use the beams he starts next to, to distract Slade so he can get into a more favorable position.

Luther is very adept at using the environment to his advantage:

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Next up is Slade using his guns, while I admit its very plausible that he could tag Luther eventually, the bullets wont ultimately matter. Luther has been shot in both kneecaps by Shooter, and literally crouched on them, so its not like it slows him down.

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On top of this, he can actually catch the bullets in his muscles:

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Next the sword advantage.

Luther Strode can also catch the sword itself in his muscles like so:

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Now you can say you could just rip it out, but hes literally clenching all around it grabbing it with the full force of his muscles.

Jack who can do this to a mall floor:

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On top of that, Jack was even able to break Luther's arm:

No Caption Provided

Yet with the full force of BOTH his hands, he couldn't overpower Luther's muscles. I doubt Slade can.

Well, I've shown Luther can catch Knives in his muscles, so if you plan on throwing knives at him, It may end badly for you considering Luther's bullseye level accuracy..

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  • Scan 1: Richoche's a paperball of a wall into a trashcan without looking
  • Scan 2: Throws two little beef sticks into shooters guns
  • Scan 3: Lobbed a guys head off with a sewer grate
  • Scan 4: Used blood dripping from his arm to blind someone
  • Scan 5: Throws two knives in Binders eye without looking
  • Scan 6: Knocks a guy out with a helmet without looking
  • Scan 7: Threw two bullets through shooters kneecaps, threw two hitting two bullets out the air, and two more to disarm Shooter

Recap

  • I think I can counter all of your gear advantage except for the staff, and even with it amping your strike, it would still be a while before you could slow down Luther. Throwing knives used against Luther would cause more trouble being thrown back at you, then it would cause being thrown at Luther. Even if you get a slash off, Luther has fought (and even killed) someone with his entire torso's organs hanging out. Bullets don't really effect him any more.
  • Luther can see weakspots in people (via meat vision), and coupled with his extreme striking strength, he should be able to put Slade down ridiculously fast if any sort of opening comes up.
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  • Every hit Luther trades with Slade is a win. While Slade does have a healing factor, Luther's is insanely better. Every hit Luther gets in will slow Slade down, while only a decap will stop Luther.
  • I admit that Slade is above Luther in skill, but coupled with above, all Luther needs is one opening (which Luther is intelligent enough to utilize his environment for) to lay Slade out.
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#7 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@pr0metheus: Awesome; it looks great. I'll try to get a post up today.

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#8 Posted by DeepSpaceHomer (155 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v plz.

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#9 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42612 posts) - - Show Bio

Tfv

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#10 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3703 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes please

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#11 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@pr0metheus: Instead of posting scans for everything, I'm going to simply list some things as well. If you want a scan or issue number for anything I mention, just ask and I will happily oblige in my next post.

Deathstroke the Terminator:

No Caption Provided

Stats & Abilities:

  • Superhuman Strength [Lifting] - The general idea around Deathstroke is that he has the strength of ten men, though that has fluctuated throughout his appearances and his strength has stated to be as much as twice that in the past. His lifting feats are few and far between, but based on what he has done, I'd say he's capable of lifting a ton or so over his head.
  • Superhuman Strength [Striking] - Outside of Flashpoint, I've never seen Deathstroke punch/kick through someone like Strode does so often; however, his striking is still very impressive regardless. He's consistently thrown out hits capable of hurting solid mid-tiers, and has two-shotted Nightwing while only half as fast and strong as he is regularly. More on all that later.
  • Superhuman Speed [Reflexes/Movement] - This is where I think Slade takes his first advantage. Deathstroke is a proven bullet-timer, speed-blitzed Black Canary before she could scream (and she has legitimate bullet-timing feats to her name as well), and has dodged, deflected, caught, and cut down various projectiles, ranging from throwing stars to arrows to bullets to even lasers. He's caught Pantha's strikes with no real effort, and caught her out of the air when Nightwing couldn't even react to her. Even Cassandra Cain, one of the most notable and fluent street-level bullet-timers, has stated that Deathstroke is faster than herself. He's so fast that his reflexes have repeatedly been called instant.
  • Superhuman Durability [In-Armor] - Deathstroke has crazy durability, and not only due to his armor. He's taken attacks powerful enough to rip off a man's arm and tear an ox in two while sustaining minimal damage. Hell, when Slade was possessed by Jericho he took hits from Superboy. His armor is completely bulletproof as well. Obviously he can be hurt by less than Superboy, but his damage soak and pain suppression allow him to take hits from characters a lot more powerful than Strode.
  • Superhuman Senses - Deathstroke's sense of smell, hearing, and sight have all been enhanced. This is most notably evident with his sight, as he's been able to spot the Atom twice, at one point even tagging him.
  • Regeneration - On top of his durability, Slade has a healing factor. It's actually quite a bit faster than most would think. He's healed a deep cut on his stomach in a few seconds, and he's healed from being shot in the head on multiple occasions, though how long it takes has varied.
  • Combat Skill [CQC/Swordsmanship/Marksmanship] - Deathstroke is quite a skilled fighter. He's routinely taken on teams of super-powered individuals, even doing so while holding back at times. He can fire his guns behind his back and hit his targets without even looking at them, and has completely stomped Green Arrow and Black Canary at the same time.

Counters:

I think these guys are pretty comparable in strength lifting wise, however I still think Luther is superior. The best strength feat I could find for Deathstroke (It's actually pretty hard to find anything that isn't N52 Deathstroke now), was Deathstroke breaking chains like so..

-

He seemed to do it well, even seemed injured during it. However, Luther Strode has done something pretty similar expect far better..

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Luther not only breaks chains like Slade above, but he is chained up over his ENTIRE BODY (Slade is only chained up by the arms) and not only is he far better chained up, He is in an impossible position with literally no leverage whatsoever to get out, while Slade in the above scans can use his feet on the wall behind him to get free.

That scan of Slade is from New Titans #83, and Slade had just been wounded by Jericho, kicked in the face, and shot. Out of those two showings, yes, Strode's showing is decidedly more impressive. However; that is not Deathstroke's best showing. In Teen Titans #46, Slade stabs Cyborg through the arm and then uses his sword and his strength to overpower Cyborg and point his sonic cannon at more Titans:

No Caption Provided

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Keep in mind, Cyborg has several multi-ton feats to his name. Deathstroke overpowering even just one of his arms is a great feat that puts Slade much closer to Strode in strength.

Next up is Striking Strength, don't get me wrong, Slade is a monster when it comes to capability, and while he isn't weak by any means, he just isn't as strong as Luther.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7
  • 1-5: Deathstroke beats Batman, but it takes a dozen or so punches.
  • 6: Deathstroke punches Batman (later punches him repeatedly in the fight), bloodies him but doesn't do any long lasting damage.
  • 7: Kicks Nightwing in the back of the neck, and not only doesn't kill him, Nightwing fights without any indication of damage after.

I mean, you could just chalk this up to really good pain tolerance/durability to Nightwing & Batman

I don't disagree with Strode being stronger, but I think Slade is a lot stronger than you're giving him credit for. I don't think Deathstroke was going for the kill in any of those situations. Slade's strong enough to shatter missile-proof glass (he did this in Faces of Evil: Deathstroke#1 by coupling his strength with his ability to sense weak spots, which is the exact same thing Strode does according to Justin Jordan). With what he's shown, if Slade wasn't holding anything back I don't see how you could argue he couldn't take Bruce in more than a couple moves.

The second fight was in Detective Comics #710, and again, I don't think there's anything to suggest Slade was trying to kill him, and Slade seemed very disinterested in fighting Batman to begin with. As for the Nightwing scan, the issue (Teen Titans #46, again) begins with Slade stating that everything he's ever done had a purpose, and in the end of the issue reveals that the purpose of the fight was to test the Titans to make sure they could keep Rose and Jericho safe. He was never trying to kill any of them:

No Caption Provided

As mentioned earlier, Deathstroke has two-shotted Grayson when his strength and speed were cut in half in Deathstroke the Terminator #14:

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Scans 1-3: The fight/Scan 4: Proof Deathstroke was weakened

Later on Nightwing improves and gets better showings against Slade, but it's arguable that that was all apart of Slade's plan based on his dialogue in later comics.

Slade has been unable to do it on fodder too:

I mean he broke his ribs sure, but he wasn't able to kill him.

Again, I'm not sure Deathstroke was trying to kill him. Plus, on the very next page of the same comic (Deathstroke the Terminator #22) Deathstroke blitzes those guys and breaks one of their necks with an elbow:

No Caption Provided

I'm also going to revisit The Gardener for this one, You see the part where I said Luther shoots himself like an Arrow down using the wires? Yes well, he was in the air. How he got up there? The Gardener literally punched him:

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Not only did that punch not hurt Luther, he literally sent himself flying back down and still wasn't hurt. I don't see how Slade could legitimately leave any damage on Luther (fist wise)

I don't know about this. In Deathstroke the Terminator #52Slade was capable of going hand-to-hand with and even drew blood on a man named Ebrax, who was completely bulletproof, took hits from and hurt Hawkman, and took the explosion of his jetpack quite well:

No Caption Provided

For context, only Hawkman and Slade were capable of killing Ebrax due to the stipulations of his curse, but his durability seemed consistent. It seems that he just couldn't heal the damage caused by them. This is evident when his jetpack explodes and he is burned all over, but every part of him heals apart from where he was struck by Hawkman:

No Caption Provided

I definitely don't think Slade can kill Strode in hand-to-hand, but I'd say he's capable of holding him off and even damaging him, especially if he focuses on specific, vulnerable areas like his throat.

Luther is pretty fast himself too, he regularly dodges bullets and appears as a blur.

No Caption Provided

Like you said, this can be dismissed as bad aim (I don't think it is, but it's debatable), meanwhile Slade has some very clear cut showings of genuine bullet-timing. For example, take New Titans #62, in which Slade flips over two bullets that were already fired, one of which was only a foot or so away from hitting Slade's head:

No Caption Provided

On top of this, Slade has deflected bullets both with his staff and his sword (two separate occasions), two more showings of him reacting to bullets distinctly after they were fired, and has multiple showings of maneuvering himself through walls of gunfire. As for movement speed, Slade is still incredibly fast:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  1. [New Titans #73] - Deathstroke moves across the room before his opponent can react at a speed at which words "crawl" and "time is reduced to a series of frozen snapshots."
  2. [New Titans #75] - Deathstroke jumps through a fan that was spinning so fast that the Wildebeests' laser-like weaponry couldn't get through without being deflected.
  3. [Deathstroke the Terminator #12] - Deathstroke falls with a woman from a great height, lands on his feet, and then leaps several feet and catches her before she hits the ground.

Here (this triples as a intellect/accuracy feat) Luther uses Shooters bullets against him. He throws 6 bullets with enough force to:

  • Hit two bullets out the air.
  • Hit shooter in his knee caps.
  • Hit both of shooters guns out of his hands.
No Caption Provided

I'd just like to point out that this is more of an accuracy showing of a speed showing. Part of this is knowing where the barrels are pointed and reacting to them (this much has been stated by Justin Jordan, and while he has contradicted himself in the past he seems to be consistent about this), and it does look like Luther threw the debris and bullets before the Shooter fired. Even guys much slower than Deathstroke and Strode like Moon Knight have managed to cut bullets in half by reacting to where the gun is pointed. I have no problems conceding that Luther is more accurate than Slade (at least with thrown projectiles), but I don't think this puts him on par with Slade in speed.

Then, there is the creator of the Hercules Method himself, Cain someone who's experience is counted in Millenia

Ebrax had been alive for 3,000 years, and then Slade killed him. While he doesn't have quite as much experience as Cain, Strode isn't the only one to fight someone who's experience is counted in millennia.

Now.. that is just Luther's skill, we haven't even gone into his Pre-cog yet:

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Librarian has even taunted Strode about it before he knew how to use it:

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I don't think Strode's precog will be very effective against Slade, given he can fool others' precognition and even machines via "absolute control over every molecule of his body":

Faces of Evil: Deathstroke #1
Faces of Evil: Deathstroke #1

For context, while Slade says how Rose's powers work, she has straight up seen the future a couple of times. So whether Strode has 'enhanced move reading' as Justin Jordan says or full on precognition, Slade should be protected given Rose can't read or foresee Deathstroke.

If Slade so much as tries to read & predict Luther's moves, he can use this against him and put him in a shit position like the other warriors.

This shouldn't be an issue given Slade doesn't have move reading and has only been able to predict his opponents' moves like you're implying he might when he had prep.

First off Luther will use the beams he starts next to, to distract Slade so he can get into a more favorable position.

What is Strode doing with the beams to distract Slade, exactly? This statement is pretty vague.

Next up is Slade using his guns, while I admit its very plausible that he could tag Luther eventually, the bullets wont ultimately matter. Luther has been shot in both kneecaps by Shooter, and literally crouched on them, so its not like it slows him down.

No Caption Provided

On top of this, he can actually catch the bullets in his muscles:

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Next the sword advantage.

Luther Strode can also catch the sword itself in his muscles like so:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Now you can say you could just rip it out, but hes literally clenching all around it grabbing it with the full force of his muscles.

Jack who can do this to a mall floor:

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On top of that, Jack was even able to break Luther's arm:

No Caption Provided

Yet with the full force of BOTH his hands, he couldn't overpower Luther's muscles. I doubt Slade can.

Luther has only been able to catch bullets and blades where his muscles are particularly dense, like his chest and back. Several other students of Cain have been able to cut him fine on his legs and arms, and even tons of lighter cuts on his upper body. Musashi even cut another student of Cain in half at the waist in The Legacy of Luther Strode #5. Plus, given how easily Jack decapitated Binder and Petra blew the brains out of another student of Cain, I'd say Luther's head and neck are two significant weak spots. Scans for the things I've mentioned:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

I think it's reasonable to assume less muscle-dense spots on Luther's body won't be able to catch Slade's weapons, seeing as it's already happened to Luther and several other students of Cain. If Slade can land a headshot on Luther with even just his handgun (which doubles as a sniper rifle), I don't see why Strode wouldn't go down. Not to say it would be easy for Slade, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

Even if Luther gets a hold of Slade's sword and Slade can't rip it out, he can use the stun setting on his staff to cause Strode to temporarily lose control of his muscles, like Binder accomplished with a simple taser in The Legend of Luther Strode #4:

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Well, I've shown Luther can catch Knives in his muscles, so if you plan on throwing knives at him, It may end badly for you considering Luther's bullseye level accuracy.

Slade's throwing knives will be an ineffective weapon against Luther, but seeing Strode catch them with either his muscles or hands will help Slade gauge his abilities and lead him to fight smarter. Considering how fluent a bullet-timer Slade is, even with his incredible accuracy I cannot see Strode tagging Slade with a thrown knife unless they're very close to each other.

Conclusion:

  • Luther is stronger all around, but lifting strength is close, and Slade's striking is enough to hurt Luther, if only a little.
  • Deathstroke is faster all around.
  • Deathstroke has the damage soak and pain suppression to take his share of hits.
  • Deathstroke has a direct counter to both Luther catching his weapons and Luther's precog.
  • Less muscle-dense spots on Luther's body are vulnerable, and Slade will eventually realize and capitalize on this.
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#12 Posted by FukYouRenchamp (7109 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: Nice, I haven't seen you debate before. I'm glad you might be better then me, I need to get a few good CAV's under my belt. I'll respond to this either later tonight or tommorow evening.

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#13 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@pr0metheus said:

@elijah_c_washington: Nice, I haven't seen you debate before. I'm glad you might be better then me, I need to get a few good CAV's under my belt. I'll respond to this either later tonight or tommorow evening.

Thank you very much. Take your time as well; I have another CaV I need to get a post up in.

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#14 Posted by Erick_Williams (1117 posts) - - Show Bio

this looks so good
also
T4V

Online
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#15 Edited by FukYouRenchamp (7109 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington This took almost 3 hours, and five different write ups to actually post as Chrome kept crashing. God damn am I tired.

That scan of Slade is from New Titans #83, and Slade had just been wounded by Jericho, kicked in the face, and shot. Out of those two showings, yes, Strode's showing is decidedly more impressive. However; that is not Deathstroke's best showing. In Teen Titans #46, Slade stabs Cyborg through the arm and then uses his sword and his strength to overpower Cyborg and point his sonic cannon at more Titans:

Keep in mind, Cyborg has several multi-ton feats to his name. Deathstroke overpowering even just one of his arms is a great feat that puts Slade much closer to Strode in strength.

While I admit this impressive, You have to consider 2 things:

  • Slade is using his sword for a strength boost
  • The stab made Cyborg reel in pain, and Slade took advantage of this.
No Caption Provided

Slade's strong enough to shatter missile-proof glass (he did this in Faces of Evil: Deathstroke#1 by coupling his strength with his ability to sense weak spots, which is the exact same thing Strode does according to Justin Jordan).

I felt the need to address this specifically. While this is a way Strode does damage, this is not the only way Strode does damage. This proven numerous times with other feats, but this is one of my favorites: Strode punches an armoured truck's door so hard, it flys off and almost cuts another car in half:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

I don't disagree with Strode being stronger, but I think Slade is a lot stronger than you're giving him credit for. I don't think Deathstroke was going for the kill in any of those situations. Slade's strong enough to shatter missile-proof glass (he did this in Faces of Evil: Deathstroke#1by coupling his strength with his ability to sense weak spots, which is the exact same thing Strode does according to Justin Jordan). With what he's shown, if Slade wasn't holding anything back I don't see how you could argue he couldn't take Bruce in more than a couple moves.

The second fight was in Detective Comics #710, and again, I don't think there's anything to suggest Slade was trying to kill him, and Slade seemed very disinterested in fighting Batman to begin with. As for the Nightwing scan, the issue (Teen Titans #46, again) begins with Slade stating that everything he's ever done had a purpose, and in the end of the issue reveals that the purpose of the fight was to test the Titans to make sure they could keep Rose and Jericho safe. He was never trying to kill any of them:

Maybe he wasn't trying to go all out, but why exactly would he be holding back in these scans? You could argue in the Nightwing --> Teen Titans fight he was testing them, however if he wanted to push their limits why would he hold back?

Again, I'm not sure Deathstroke was trying to kill him. Plus, on the very next page of the same comic (Deathstroke the Terminator #22) Deathstroke blitzes those guys and breaks one of their necks with an elbow:

This is contradictory. Why would he hold back on Thug 1 but not Thug 2? On top of this, they are different feats.

  • Instance One: You have Slade punching Thug 1 in his torso with no momentum.
  • Instance Two: You have Slade elbowing Thug 2 in a vital weak point (the throat) with the momentum of blitzing across the room.

So while Slade CAN kill a human in a single strike, it doesn't really compare to Luther, who can vaporize peoples heads with his direct punches, and accidentally dismember/decapitate normal humans with backhands.

Let's say however that Slade was holding back for whatever reason, this is what Luther has to do to knock someone out without killing them:

No Caption Provided

Like you said, this can be dismissed as bad aim (I don't think it is, but it's debatable), meanwhile Slade has some very clear cut showings of genuine bullet-timing. For example, take New Titans #62, in which Slade flips over two bullets that were already fired, one of which was only a foot or so away from hitting Slade's head:

On top of this, Slade has deflected bullets both with his staff and his sword (two separate occasions), two more showings of him reacting to bullets distinctly after they were fired, and has multiple showings of maneuvering himself through walls of gunfire. As for movement speed, Slade is still incredibly fast:

One thing in this CAV I'm not trying to under estimate is Slade's speed. However, I still believe Luther is faster. I'll go into one of Luther's high end (if not his highest) speed feat. Catching multiple bullets out of the air with one hand (while simultaneously using the other on the environment as his advantage)

No Caption Provided

I guess you could say its just weird art, however despite the hands matching up with the bullets trajectory, we see Luther holding them later on:

No Caption Provided

I don't think Strode's precog will be very effective against Slade, given he can fool others' precognition and even machines via "absolute control over every molecule of his body":

For context, while Slade says how Rose's powers work, she has straight up seen the future a couple of times. So whether Strode has 'enhanced move reading' as Justin Jordan says or full on precognition, Slade should be protected given Rose can't read or foresee Deathstroke.

I figured this would come up (I'm impressed it was against Rose, I've seen the description of this feat thrown around on the forum, but I figured it was against Cassandra)

However, in this scenario, I think the move-reading/pre-cog will work.

The reason Luther & Friends have their powerset(s) is because of the whole mind over matter similar to Deathstroke. Something similar is stated by Luther in his first run:

No Caption Provided

This is the reason beings like Jack & The Librarian can fight with their heads turned 180 degrees & broken necks:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is the reason Luther can catch things in his muscles

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is the reason Luther couldn't use it on The Librarian originally (hence him mocking him)

No Caption Provided

However, Luther learned how..

No Caption Provided

What is Strode doing with the beams to distract Slade, exactly? This statement is pretty vague.

Using his enviroment to create an opening to close the distance (EX: Chucking a beam at Slade forcing him to dodge)

Luther has only been able to catch bullets and blades where his muscles are particularly dense, like his chest and back. Several other students of Cain have been able to cut him fine on his legs and arms, and even tons of lighter cuts on his upper body. Musashi even cut another student of Cain in half at the waist in The Legacy of Luther Strode #5. Plus, given how easily Jack decapitated Binder and Petra blew the brains out of another student of Cain, I'd say Luther's head and neck are two significant weak spots. Scans for the things I've mentioned:

These have context:

  • The whole point of that Musashi fight was to catch them off guard exploting the move reading/pre-cog. The muscle catching doesn't exactly seem like a "passive" ability.
  • Binder was in condition so critical, he could barely walk much less catch something.
  • The Twin was caught off guard, and its sort of hard to catch a Mach 3+ projectile with enough force to make it look like a cannonball just went through your head with your face.

think it's reasonable to assume less muscle-dense spots on Luther's body won't be able to catch Slade's weapons, seeing as it's already happened to Luther and several other students of Cain. If Slade can land a headshot on Luther with even just his handgun (which doubles as a sniper rifle), I don't see why Strode wouldn't go down. Not to say it would be easy for Slade, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

Even if Luther gets a hold of Slade's sword and Slade can't rip it out, he can use the stun setting on his staff to cause Strode to temporarily lose control of his muscles, like Binder accomplished with a simple taser in The Legend of Luther Strode #4:

I wont refute this, a headshot should be able to take luther out.

However, for this point, we don't know how powerful the taser was. Binder may of gotten it made specificially for Hercules Method users, as its his job to hunt them down.

Slade's throwing knives will be an ineffective weapon against Luther, but seeing Strode catch them with either his muscles or hands will help Slade gauge his abilities and lead him to fight smarter. Considering how fluent a bullet-timer Slade is, even with his incredible accuracy I cannot see Strode tagging Slade with a thrown knife unless they're very close to each other.

There isn't really any way for Slade to discern this with throwing knives, They would just stick out of Luther's chest like normal. The only way Slade will realize this is when Luther's muscles have already grabbed Slade's sword.

Luther is stronger all around, but lifting strength is close, and Slade's striking is enough to hurt Luther, if only a little.

I admit, I underestimated Slade's strength but I still feel as if Luther is superior.

Deathstroke is faster all around.

I disagree, the above scans show that Luther operates on a higher, if only slightly level.

Deathstroke has the damage soak and pain suppression to take his share of hits.

I disagree, multiple times has Batman punches been enough to put the hurt on Deathstroke. I don't disagree he can take more then this, but I don't think he can tank an onslaught of punches from Strode.

No Caption Provided

Less muscle-dense spots on Luther's body are vulnerable, and Slade will eventually realize and capitalize on this.

Yes, but not untill after hes lost his sword.

Recap:

  • Luther is still stronger then Slade in both forms of strength, lifting/grappling being slightly closer.
  • Luther has the ability to down Slade with a considerable amount of fewer hits then vice versa.
  • Luther is at worst even in speed.
  • Luther at worst can't read Slades moves, but can use his anticipation (not move reading), just soldiers anticipation, intellect, etc against him.
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#17 Posted by FukYouRenchamp (7109 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

  • Never give up
  • Jayskee
  • TheNaughtyTitan
  • cosmicallyaware1
  • deepspacehammer
  • allstarsuperman
  • nathaniel_adam
  • erick_williams
  • tparks (from another thread)

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#18 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@pr0metheus: I understand that feeling completely. I've lost my progress on this post a couple of times by now.

Round 2:

No Caption Provided

Counters:

While I admit this impressive, You have to consider 2 things:

  • Slade is using his sword for a strength boost
  • The stab made Cyborg reel in pain, and Slade took advantage of this.
No Caption Provided

Fair enough. Still, to freely aim Cyborg's arm wherever he wants takes some strength, and it still puts him around a ton or so. Slade has a few other lifting feats to support that notion as well. For example, in Birds of Prey #24, Deathstroke lifts and throws a sizable gorilla:

No Caption Provided

I felt the need to address this specifically. While this is a way Strode does damage, this is not the only way Strode does damage. This proven numerous times with other feats, but this is one of my favorites: Strode punches an armoured truck's door so hard, it flys off and almost cuts another car in half:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Again, fair enough. Although, due to his weaponry, Slade's damage output is just as deadly. While we're on the subject, Deathstroke has cut an entire car in half in Adventures of Superman #580:

No Caption Provided

Maybe he wasn't trying to go all out, but why exactly would he be holding back in these scans? You could argue in the Nightwing --> Teen Titans fight he was testing them, however if he wanted to push their limits why would he hold back?

In the Batman scans I think it's fairly obvious. He had the opportunity to kill Bruce in both fights and let up each time, ergo he was never going for the kill. In the Nightwing scans he was indeed testing their abilities, but again, that doesn't mean he was trying to kill Nightwing. Especially considering he was planning on the Titans being Rose and Jericho's new family. You may think I'm reaching, but I'm really not. In Teen Titans #78, Slade states that he never failed at killing the Titans. It was never even about them. Every time he fought the Titans, it was about his kids:

No Caption Provided

As he says, he could've killed Nightwing - or any of the Titans - anytime he wanted. Even Nightwing himself has stated Deathstroke could kill him without breaking a sweat, but he always chose not to for the sake of his kids.

This is contradictory. Why would he hold back on Thug 1 but not Thug 2?

It doesn't look like he killed any of them. They're all laying on the ground defeated by the end, but they're still moaning in pain or even looking at Slade, and yet he chooses not to finish any of them off:

No Caption Provided

For definitive proof Slade can kill a man in one strike, take Green Arrow #64. In this issue, Slade headbutts a table in two, launching part of it at a prison guard with enough force to kill him:

No Caption Provided

On top of this, they are different feats.

  • Instance One: You have Slade punching Thug 1 in his torso with no momentum.
  • Instance Two: You have Slade elbowing Thug 2 in a vital weak point (the throat) with the momentum of blitzing across the room.

Fair enough, but again, he didn't seem to kill any of them, intentionally at that.

So while Slade CAN kill a human in a single strike, it doesn't really compare to Luther, who can vaporize peoples heads with his direct punches, and accidentally dismember/decapitate normal humans with backhands.

Let's say however that Slade was holding back for whatever reason, this is what Luther has to do to knock someone out without killing them:

No Caption Provided

I don't disagree that Strode's striking is far superior to Slade's. It's definitely his biggest advantage in this fight. But Slade isn't a stranger to fighting opponents with a strength advantage. In Action Comics #892, Slade takes on Lex Luthor in his portable Warsuit:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Note that Deathstroke was out of his mind at the time, which, according to Luthor, coupled with his warsuit let him nearly match Slade in speed. In addition, Luthor is far stronger, and Slade still managed himself in a grapple by throwing Lex to the ground, and then kicking through his force field, making him question what would've happened if he didn't have it.

And while I'm tempted to show off more feats of him going against people massively stronger than himself, I think I'm going to save some of my cards for a little while longer.

One thing in this CAV I'm not trying to under estimate is Slade's speed. However, I still believe Luther is faster. I'll go into one of Luther's high end (if not his highest) speed feat. Catching multiple bullets out of the air with one hand (while simultaneously using the other on the environment as his advantage)

No Caption Provided

I guess you could say its just weird art, however despite the hands matching up with the bullets trajectory, we see Luther holding them later on:

No Caption Provided

This is utterly and completely out of context.

  • Luther did not catch those bullets. They are all shown whizzing past him, two of which are even shown hitting the ground behind him.
  • These scans are several pages apart. Luther's hands are shown to be empty multiple times between them.
  • The bullets Luther was holding were bullets that were lodged in his muscles. He is explicitly shown getting them out and placing them in his hand:

The Legacy of Luther Strode #3
The Legacy of Luther Strode #3

At best, this feat of Luther's is in the same range of bullet-dodging Slade has shown with his speed and strength cut in half. Except Slade's showings are still more impressive:

Deathstroke the Terminator Annual #1
Deathstroke the Terminator Annual #1

I figured this would come up (I'm impressed it was against Rose, I've seen the description of this feat thrown around on the forum, but I figured it was against Cassandra)

However, in this scenario, I think the move-reading/pre-cog will work.

The reason Luther & Friends have their powerset(s) is because of the whole mind over matter similar to Deathstroke. Something similar is stated by Luther in his first run:

No Caption Provided

This is the reason beings like Jack & The Librarian can fight with their heads turned 180 degrees & broken necks:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is the reason Luther can catch things in his muscles

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is the reason Luther couldn't use it on The Librarian originally (hence him mocking him)

No Caption Provided

However, Luther learned how..

No Caption Provided

I've thought this over a couple of times now, and I'm going to concede on this point on the grounds that Luther has genuine precognition. Slade hasn't fought something like that before, but that doesn't mean he can't. Slade still has several advantages in this fight, particularly speed, skill, and strategy. Those three will help a lot in dealing with Luther's precog.

These have context:

  • The whole point of that Musashi fight was to catch them off guard exploting the move reading/pre-cog. The muscle catching doesn't exactly seem like a "passive" ability.
  • Binder was in condition so critical, he could barely walk much less catch something.
  • The Twin was caught off guard, and its sort of hard to catch a Mach 3+ projectile with enough force to make it look like a cannonball just went through your head with your face.

Good points. I honestly didn't really consider any of this. But I still maintain less muscle-dense spots on his body are viable points of attack. Slade chopping Luther down is a very likely scenario, IMO.

I wont refute this, a headshot should be able to take luther out.

Then we have agreed on another way Slade can win. I think this is also a likely scenario given Slade's marksmanship. For example, take DC Universe: Last Will and Testament #1, in which Slade pulls off something pretty crazy. While at night, Slade hops over an attack from Geo-Force, and before he even hits the ground fires off four darts. The first one is to simply manipulate Geo-Force into opening up his upper-thigh where the other three darts land, making their way into his bloodstream:

No Caption Provided

Slade's shot made it into Brion's bloodstream as they isolated and inhibited a handful of his blood cells.
Slade's shot made it into Brion's bloodstream as they isolated and inhibited a handful of his blood cells.

However, for this point, we don't know how powerful the taser was. Binder may of gotten it made specificially for Hercules Method users, as its his job to hunt them down.

This is entirely speculation. We don't know how powerful the taser was. Leave it at that.

There isn't really any way for Slade to discern this with throwing knives, They would just stick out of Luther's chest like normal. The only way Slade will realize this is when Luther's muscles have already grabbed Slade's sword.

I was more referring to Slade gauging Luther's durability/pain tolerance and realizing the fact that he'd be willing to take unnecessary damage. That said, if Slade attempted to get the knives back forcefully he would be able to realize Luther's ability to catch things in his muscles. It doesn't need to be his sword.

I admit, I underestimated Slade's strength but I still feel as if Luther is superior.

I agree, but it's not like Slade can't fight against a strength advantage. He's done so while losing his mind a couple of times, the Luthor battle being a notable example.

I disagree, the above scans show that Luther operates on a higher, if only slightly level.

The above scans were taken massively out of context. Strode hasn't done anything above bullet-timing, meanwhile Slade hasn't only done the same thing but way more impressive, he's blitzed people with better or comparable speed feats to Luther (Black Canary, who is a certified bullet-timer).

I disagree, multiple times has Batman punches been enough to put the hurt on Deathstroke.

Which is a bit of a low-showing (albeit not an isolated one) to judge Slade's durability on considering Slade has taken building-level explosions fine, falls from over 20 stories with no damage, blitzes from speedsters, punches from mid-tiers, etc, etc. Hits from Batman is the very minimum of what it takes to hurt him. He can withstand so, so much more.

I don't disagree he can take more then this, but I don't think he can tank an onslaught of punches from Strode.

He won't have to.

Yes, but not untill after hes lost his sword.

Again, it doesn't have to be his sword. And, like I said in my first post, Slade can get it back.

Luther is still stronger then Slade in both forms of strength, lifting/grappling being slightly closer.

I don't disagree. Slade will still manage fine, however.

Luther has the ability to down Slade with a considerable amount of fewer hits then vice versa.

Which will be quite difficult given Slade's speed, skill, and strategic advantages (which I will stress more heavily later on). And on the same coin, all Slade has to do is land a single killing blow with his sword or guns. Both decapitation and a headshot will instantly down Luther.

Luther is at worst even in speed.

You have yet to prove this.

Luther at worst can't read Slades moves, but can use his anticipation (not move reading), just soldiers anticipation, intellect, etc against him.

Luther can, indeed, read Slade's movements. However; Strode has only been able to trick others' precognition by giving them fake visions of things he wasn't going to do:

The Legacy of Luther Strode #5
The Legacy of Luther Strode #5

This isn't applicable to "soldiers' anticipation." Slade could still see some of his moves coming, and at worse Luther would be acting a bit unpredictable. Unpredictability is something Slade has already dealt with in the past, albeit not in someone as powerful as Luther (Green Arrow).

Conclusion:

  • Via superior skill, speed, and sufficient durability, Slade can deal with Strode's superior strength and durability.
  • Deathstroke is still faster and you will have a hard time proving otherwise.
  • Deathstroke only needs to land one good slash with his sword or shot to the head to down Luther.
  • Luther can see Slade's movements, but that will only be so effective against him.
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#19 Posted by FukYouRenchamp (7109 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: I may not get to finish this for a while, apparently I'm being banned lel. However, I'm not sure if its permanent or not, but I will return.

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#20 Posted by Bullet_to_the_Head (4310 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Bullet_to_the_Head (4310 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by Bullet_to_the_Head (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenaughtytitan:

I uh probably wont get to finish this, apparently I'm about to be banned because a mod has nothing better to do then scower every post on CAV, and realize I posted piracy links :P. I don't know if its permenant, but I'll be back either way at some point.

This is what he said in the J.O.K.E Tourney Pm

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#25 Posted by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Darth_Wayne (3024 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: I may not get to finish this for a while, apparently I'm being banned lel. However, I'm not sure if its permanent or not, but I will return.

You didn't happen to post the words Cough Cough with links to TPB and Kat on the CaV page, did you?

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#27 Posted by NeonGameWave (19333 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweet.

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#28 Edited by ApolIo (293 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenaughtytitan: Hmm, I figured that the guy that permabanned me without any warning would take the time to atleast IP ban me, but alas, I guess I'm just not that special.

@elijah_c_washington: This will probably be my last post if you don't post something that just NEEDS to be countered.

Fair enough. Still, to freely aim Cyborg's arm wherever he wants takes some strength, and it still puts him around a ton or so. Slade has a few other lifting feats to support that notion as well. For example, in Birds of Prey #24, Deathstroke lifts and throws a sizable gorilla:

It depends on how much that Gorilla weighs as according to google, they can weigh anywhere from 150 pounds to 400+

Again, fair enough. Although, due to his weaponry, Slade's damage output is just as deadly. While we're on the subject, Deathstroke has cut an entire car in half in Adventures of Superman #580:

Isn't Deathstroke's a promethium sword? If so, that feat still requires strength but isn't above 1 ton. However if he doesn't, I may have underestimated his strength..

It doesn't look like he killed any of them. They're all laying on the ground defeated by the end, but they're still moaning in pain or even looking at Slade, and yet he chooses not to finish any of them off:

To be fair, he was stopped right after by the guy giving him the info he came there for (according to the scan)

I don't disagree that Strode's striking is far superior to Slade's. It's definitely his biggest advantage in this fight. But Slade isn't a stranger to fighting opponents with a strength advantage. In Action Comics #892, Slade takes on Lex Luthor in his portable Warsuit:

This sounds more impressive then it is. Slade only hit him once in that entire fight, and I don't know how strong the forcefield around his head is on that suit. He was also able to throw him with a grapple, but thats more of a skill feat. Don't get me wrong, it still requires a bunch of strength, but he sort of caught him off guard.

This is utterly and completely out of context.

Luther did not catch those bullets. They are all shown whizzing past him, two of which are even shown hitting the ground behind him.

These scans are several pages apart. Luther's hands are shown to be empty multiple times between them.

The bullets Luther was holding were bullets that were lodged in his muscles. He is explicitly shown getting them out and placing them in his hand:

After studying the scans a bit more, Luther does hold his hands open at multiple points. However I have to say, he got shot three times that would of left a bullet. He pulled out four bullets.

No Caption Provided

The feat despite being massively overplayed on my part (I'm sorry for that), is still usable if admittedly worse, as you can clearly see each bullet is following Luther's hands: He is guiding them away se he doesn't get hit. You can try and downplay Strode's speed all you want, and while I did overestimate it, I've yet to see Slade have the capability to block 5 bullets from hitting him without looking.

No Caption Provided

Then we have agreed on another way Slade can win. I think this is also a likely scenario given Slade's marksmanship. For example, take DC Universe: Last Will and Testament #1, in which Slade pulls off something pretty crazy. While at night, Slade hops over an attack from Geo-Force, and before he even hits the ground fires off four darts. The first one is to simply manipulate Geo-Force into opening up his upper-thigh where the other three darts land, making their way into his bloodstream:

While I admit a headshot can take Luther down, he takes great care of not letting people shoot him in the face.. You've admitted the Pre-Cog will work on Slade, so I find it very hard that Luther will let himself get into that position in the first place.

I was more referring to Slade gauging Luther's durability/pain tolerance and realizing the fact that he'd be willing to take unnecessary damage. That said, if Slade attempted to get the knives back forcefully he would be able to realize Luther's ability to catch things in his muscles. It doesn't need to be his sword.

I disagree with Luther taking unnecessary damage, there are at time's I admit he does, but he does his best to avoid them too:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

There are other times too, but this should do.

I agree, but it's not like Slade can't fight against a strength advantage. He's done so while losing his mind a couple of times, the Luthor battle being a notable example.

While I don't doubt Strength alone wouldn't net Luther the win.. hes packing more then that. Hes got:

  • Equal Speed (At worst)
  • Greater durability
  • Possibly greater endurance
  • The ability to counter your gear if Slade uses it wrong, and can even use the projectiles better then you can.
  • A pretty dank healing factor
  • Is skilled (Not as good as Slade, but he isn't massively outclassed)
  • The ability to see Slade's weakpoints (if he has any outside of normal humans)

The above scans were taken massively out of context. Strode hasn't done anything above bullet-timing, meanwhile Slade hasn't only done the same thing but way more impressive, he's blitzed people with better or comparable speed feats to Luther (Black Canary, who is a certified bullet-timer).

I admit I mistake, but you really can't compare Black Canary to Luther Strode.

Which will be quite difficult given Slade's speed, skill, and strategic advantages (which I will stress more heavily later on). And on the same coin, all Slade has to do is land a single killing blow with his sword or guns. Both decapitation and a headshot will instantly down Luther.

While I admit Decap and a Headshot could down Luther, He won't be tagged easily like you said, and their is no reason for Slade to go for the decap to start with.

You have yet to prove this.

Why? Somehow the bullets Slade dodges are better then Strodes? Somehow Luther throwing two bullets to hit two speeding bullets out the air, is only a "he could see where the barrels were aimed", yet you can literally say the same for literally every single feat either has done.

Luther has proven that he can be inconceivable to eyesight: This isn't FTE appearing as a blur, this is literally him unable to be seen moving:

No Caption Provided

And that was 10 years ago, Strode has gotten so much better now, he (along with the feats above) has blocked Shooter's gunfire by literally throwing a grate at him: Something with massive holes in, travels dozens of times slower and after Shooter fired.

No Caption Provided

The only way I've seen Slade compete in speed, is when you get into the PIS "I can tag the guy that sees Superman in slow motion, while I barely manage to beat Batman in another book" feats. At that point, Midnighter barely has hope against Slade.

Which is a bit of a low-showing (albeit not an isolated one) to judge Slade's durability on considering Slade has taken building-level explosions fine, falls from over 20 stories with no damage, blitzes from speedsters, punches from mid-tiers, etc, etc. Hits from Batman is the very minimum of what it takes to hurt him. He can withstand so, so much more.

I mean, Strode hits like a mid-tier at some points. You have the punching through The Gardener feat I showed before, and then you have feats like punching Shooter up 6 stories (Shooter jumped off his fist though, but given his surprise reaction to Luther being able to make the jump and the broken wall, its safe to say Luther did most of the work)

No Caption Provided

I don't disagree. Slade will still manage fine, however.

I also want to say, on top of his Strode was able to beat Cain in a grapple, despite his strength and skill advantage:

No Caption Provided

Luther can, indeed, read Slade's movements. However; Strode has only been able to trick others' precognition by giving them fake visions of things he wasn't going to do:

This isn't applicable to "soldiers' anticipation." Slade could still see some of his moves coming, and at worse Luther would be acting a bit unpredictable. Unpredictability is something Slade has already dealt with in the past, albeit not in someone as powerful as Luther (Green Arrow).

It's more then just pre-cog. Its Pre-cog, Move reading, enhanced senses and situational awareness all mixed in one.

I disagree with not being able to lead him into unfavorable positions, as thats how most of Strode's enemies where able to beat Luther originally. They make fun of his lack of "situational awareness" and predictability.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Yet Luther eventually learned how to control it

No Caption Provided

Even in the last fight vs Cain, Delilah knew that even without Cain looking at them, he was leading Luther into a position to use them against him. Yet with the help of Petra & Deliliah, Luther was able to do it to Cain himself:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

You may open votes after your next post unless you add a considerable amount of new info

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#29 Posted by StrangeLegacy (221 posts) - - Show Bio

P.S, Tag me on this account. The above has a weird username, so I've never really like using it. (Its Apolio, not Apollo)

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#30 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@strangelegacy: Awesome. I'll have my post up ASAP, but considering my shitty computer and internet, that might be anywhere within the next couple of hours to the next couple of days.

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#31 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@apolio: @strangelegacy:

Round 3:

No Caption Provided

Counters:

It depends on how much that Gorilla weighs as according to google, they can weigh anywhere from 150 pounds to 400+

I don't think it's fair to use a google estimate about IRL gorillas when we're talking about a fictional gorilla that isn't only larger than IRL gorillas, but is one of Gorilla Grodd's 'super gorillas.' Deathstroke has a couple other feats in this range as well if you're not convinced, like throwing an entire piano (which you'll see later on).

Isn't Deathstroke's a promethium sword? If so, that feat still requires strength but isn't above 1 ton. However if he doesn't, I may have underestimated his strength..

I wasn't using this as a strength feat. I was discussing the damage output of Slade's weaponry, as was stated in the comment you're replying to. But yes, Slade's sword is promethium, as is his armor and staff.

To be fair, he was stopped right after by the guy giving him the info he came there for (according to the scan)

What are you implying here? That Slade was about to kill those guys but the guy stopped him? That can't be the case as Slade stood around after they were beaten asking who was next, meaning he was prepared to keep fighting other people, but was done with the ones that were already beaten. The guy gave Slade the info out of fear of him destroying the place, not hurting/killing the men. All of this is in the scan.

This sounds more impressive then it is. Slade only hit him once in that entire fight, and I don't know how strong the forcefield around his head is on that suit. He was also able to throw him with a grapple, but thats more of a skill feat. Don't get me wrong, it still requires a bunch of strength, but he sort of caught him off guard.

Again, I wasn't using this as a strength feat. I was primarily focusing on his ability skillfully toss Luthor like he did, and while kicking through the force field is cool and worth mentioning, I'm aware it isn't quantifiable.

After studying the scans a bit more, Luther does hold his hands open at multiple points. However I have to say, he got shot three times that would of left a bullet. He pulled out four bullets.

This is incorrect as well. He was shot four times by the Shooter:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
The Legacy of Luther Strode #3
  1. Luther was first shot in the shoulder.
  2. Later when Luther is chasing the Shooter throughout a stairwell, he gets shot in the back of his arm by a ricochet bullet.
  3. And finally, Luther is shot in both of his kneecaps.

The feat despite being massively overplayed on my part (I'm sorry for that), is still usable if admittedly worse, as you can clearly see each bullet is following Luther's hands: He is guiding them away se he doesn't get hit. You can try and downplay Strode's speed all you want, and while I did overestimate it, I've yet to see Slade have the capability to block 5 bullets from hitting him without looking.

I'm not so so certain that Luther pulled a Jedi-like feat and blocked five bullets in that scan. Nonetheless; I don't doubt Luther's capability to block a bullet as he has a much more clear cut showing of him doing so in that same comic:

No Caption Provided

This is a great feat, and is indeed one Slade hasn't replicated (with his hands, at least), but I still don't believe this puts him above Slade in speed. You have to consider a couple of things about this showing:

  1. People can move their hands much, much faster than the rest of their bodies.
  2. This isn't purely a speed feat considering Luther's precognition and situational awareness.

Now, one of the reasons I think Slade is still superior in speed is because he's already been proven faster than people with comparable (if not superior) feats compared to Luther. For example, Batman and Black Canary. The former has deflected bullets a couple of times and has even punched one out of the air, and the latter has multiple showings of dodging them and has outran them on foot before destroying them mid-flight:

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  1. Batman Confidential #32
  2. Black Canary and Zatanna: Bloodspell

We know that Deathstroke is faster than them because of on-panel evidence. For Batman, Slade has outfought him while stating that he was faster and stronger. When it comes to Canary, she was outright blitzed by Slade twice:

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  1. Deathstroke the Terminator #7
  2. Identity Crisis #3
  3. Green Arrow #75

Then there's the fact that it takes a lot more speed to move your entire body out of the way of gunfire rather than blocking/deflecting it. I've already shown you the most clear cut example Slade doing so in New Titans #62, in which Slade flips his entire body over two bullets that were already fired:

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But even this is just scratching the surface. In Deathstroke the Terminator Annual #4, Slade dodges a bullet that was fired from a gun inches away from his face, and by the time the second shot was fired, he had already disarmed his assailant:

No Caption Provided

Hell, I have another scan of Deathstroke avoiding bullets, and arguably even leading gunfire on foot, taken from Deathstroke the Hunted #0:

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This last feat is pretty vague, but to me it looks like Slade outran the bullets until he ran passed things they hit. By the time they did hit other objects, Slade was clearly several feet ahead. Interpret this feat as you will, but the other two are still concrete.

I disagree with Luther taking unnecessary damage, there are at time's I admit he does, but he does his best to avoid them too:

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There are other times too, but this should do.

You missed the point. I wasn't arguing that Luther does this kind of thing often. I was talking about in the hypothetical scenario in which Luther chooses to take Slade's throwing knives to the chest instead of catching or dodging them, Slade would note that Luther is willing to take unnecessary damage. Whether or not Luther would actually choose to do that is an entirely different discussion. However; since we're talking about it, I agree that Strode would try to avoid damage, at least most of the time.

I admit I mistake, but you really can't compare Black Canary to Luther Strode.

When I'm focusing exclusively on speed and they comparable speed feats, why exactly can't I?

While I admit Decap and a Headshot could down Luther, He won't be tagged easily like you said, and their is no reason for Slade to go for the decap to start with.

It won't be easy but it's certainly a possibility.

I don't see why he wouldn't consider taking Luther's head off early on. He's done it in the past. In Titans #25, after he shot Facade in the head and realized he was a shape-shifter, Slade goes for decapitation instantly:

This didn't kill Facade, but not for lack of trying.
This didn't kill Facade, but not for lack of trying.

Why? Somehow the bullets Slade dodges are better then Strodes? Somehow Luther throwing two bullets to hit two speeding bullets out the air, is only a "he could see where the barrels were aimed", yet you can literally say the same for literally every single feat either has done.

Except you can't, as I've already provided Slade dodging bullets distinctly after they were fired. I maintain that Luther hitting bullets out of the air is an accuracy feat for reasons already provided. This feels like backtracking on your end.

Luther has proven that he can be inconceivable to eyesight: This isn't FTE appearing as a blur, this is literally him unable to be seen moving:

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Deathstroke has done the exact same thing in the exact same way in a scan I've already provided in this very thread. I'll crop it for you:

Adventures of Superman #580
Adventures of Superman #580

In addition, I've already shown him blitzing Black Canary before she could scream, even with her mouth already open. Deathstroke ran faster than a bullet-timer's brain could give the command to scream. Moving faster than thought itself has actually been a bit of a mantra for Slade.

And that was 10 years ago, Strode has gotten so much better now, he (along with the feats above) has blocked Shooter's gunfire by literally throwing a grate at him: Something with massive holes in, travels dozens of times slower and after Shooter fired.

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Was it really after the Shooter fired?

The last panel on the page before your scan
The last panel on the page before your scan

I'd say it's more logical to assume Strode threw the grate before the Shooter fired considering how far it had already traveled compared to how far the bullets had, and how fast it'd have to be going otherwise.

The only way I've seen Slade compete in speed, is when you get into the PIS "I can tag the guy that sees Superman in slow motion, while I barely manage to beat Batman in another book" feats. At that point, Midnighter barely has hope against Slade.

Deathstroke was weakened when he tagged Wally.

But seriously, come on, man. I've shown multiple speed feats from Slade that put him on par with Strode at worst. In my opinion, they put him above by a decent margin. Meanwhile you haven't done much to prove Strode's faster that I couldn't counter.

If you genuinely think that for Deathstroke to even compete with Luther in speed we need to take him tagging Wally West as a legitimate feat, then you're greatly overestimating Luther's speed.

I mean, Strode hits like a mid-tier at some points. You have the punching through The Gardener feat I showed before, and then you have feats like punching Shooter up 6 stories (Shooter jumped off his fist though, but given his surprise reaction to Luther being able to make the jump and the broken wall, its safe to say Luther did most of the work)

No Caption Provided

Still, it wasn't an actual connecting punch considering the Shooter jumped at the same time Luther extended his arm. Slade would be fine under those same circumstances. In Green Arrow #62, after being hit with an explosion that encased him in a wall (I assure you, this isn't the biggest explosion he's been hit with) and shot with an arrow, Slade is ripped from his feet, landing face-first into a catapult that then sends him crashing into a ten-inch adhesive swamp:

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It can be argued that the adhesive broke his fall, and it definitely helped to some degree, but Slade has taken various other falls fine. In DC: Universe: Last Will and Testament #1, Slade falls over twenty stories (the distance was noted by Geo-Force, who had studied the location) and lands on his feet completely unharmed:

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And while I'm talking about Geo-Force and Deathstroke's durability, let's take a look at The Outsiders #19. In this issue Geo-Force hits Deathstroke with an entire car and Slade simply recovers mid-air:

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I also have a lot of showings of Slade taking hits from actual mid-tiers that I'm understandably hesitant to use. That said, he fought Warrior (Guy Gardner) in Deathstroke the Terminator #46:

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Note: In the first scan we can see the aforementioned piano-throwing feat.

In this fight Slade takes a full on punch to the face, a shot powerful enough to launch him through a wall and into the street outside, a strike across the face with a giant flail, and a fall down some stairs. Guy gets him in advantageous position, but leaves to save a life. Deathstroke follows and gets hit with the direct blast of a grenade. He's knocked out but wakes up moments later on the next page.

So yeah. All and all I'd say Slade is capable of taking his share of hits.

I also want to say, on top of his Strode was able to beat Cain in a grapple, despite his strength and skill advantage:

No Caption Provided

Cain overpowered him and took the fight to the ground before Luther could get the advantage. Slade wouldn't be able to do that, nor do I think he'd even attempt to. He only got into a grapple with Lex because Lex was actively trying to push his strength advantage.

It's more then just pre-cog. Its Pre-cog, Move reading, enhanced senses and situational awareness all mixed in one.

I disagree with not being able to lead him into unfavorable positions, as thats how most of Strode's enemies where able to beat Luther originally. They make fun of his lack of "situational awareness" and predictability.

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Yet Luther eventually learned how to control it

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Even in the last fight vs Cain, Delilah knew that even without Cain looking at them, he was leading Luther into a position to use them against him. Yet with the help of Petra & Deliliah, Luther was able to do it to Cain himself:

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You're making this sound massively more impressive than it is. With Musashi, all Luther did was surprise him by being able to move and manipulate him into leaving his swords exposed, which he then kicked away:

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The Legacy of Luther Strode #5

Luther basically acted as a distraction with Cain. He wasn't able to do that without help. What makes you think Luther could do this to Slade who is not only more tactically and strategically adept, but has been doing the exact same thing for years? I've already shown him manipulating Geo-Force into opening up his inner-thigh and Guy Gardner into getting too close, but those aren't the only people Slade has done this to.

Deathstroke has manipulated entire teams into throwing themselves at one another, such as the Teen Titans. He's done this so well he was even manipulating other strategists and tacticians (like Nightwing) in Teen Titans #46:

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Deathstroke manipulates Nightwing into getting his head kicked, Jericho into tackling Nightwing, and punches Ravager causing her to smack Cassandra Cain.

I'll admit that there has been times where Slade has been depicted as oblivious (I can count at least three instances off the top of my head), but he's typically much more cunning and aware.

Conclusion:

  • Deathstroke is faster, more skilled, a superior strategist and tactician, and he will press those advantages to overcome Luther's main advantages in strength, durability, and precognition.
  • Deathstroke is likely to end the fight with a headshot or decapitation, and he's still capable of chopping Strode down over time.
  • Deathstroke has the durability to take his share of hits, and his superior speed and skill will have him avoiding the rest.
  • As cunning as Luther can be, Slade is more so.

You may open votes after your next post unless you add a considerable amount of new info

Your call.

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#32 Edited by StrangeLegacy (221 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm only going to address a few points and then you can reply or just open voting. @elijah_c_washington

This is incorrect as well. He was shot four times by the Shooter:

I said three times that would of left a bullet, that first scan shows Luther's shoulder being ripped open, something similar happened when Shooter first shot him.

In addition, I've already shown him blitzing Black Canary before she could scream, even with her mouth already open. Deathstroke ran faster than a bullet-timer's brain could give the command to scream. Moving faster than thought itself has actually been a bit of a mantra for Slade.

If he was able to move this fast, he wouldn't be perceived by someone like Batman, much less challenged, yes Slade usually wins but the fact that Batman gets his hits in and people like Green Arrow have dodged Slade's attacks shows that "moving faster then thought itself" isn't "bit of a mantra for Slade"

The rest is mostly up to the interpretation of the voters, so I won't address it. Win or lose, good debate. You may reply or open it up.

Edit: Deleted a few things cause it felt more like another post then clarification.

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#33 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@strangelegacy: I'll open it up for votes.

Closing Concerns:

I've also shown Luther doing better then that after they were fired.. It's an accuracy feat sure, but to only consider it an accuracy feat is massive lowballing.

What exactly are you referring to that's better? Hitting bullets out of the air? Even assuming it was after the Shooter fired (something that isn't explicitly shown) all Luther did was throw the debris, albeit with amazing accuracy. He really only moved an arm, which requires significantly less speed then flipping your entire body out of the way at as close a range as Slade did in the New Titans scan. Sure, it's a speed feat, but it's primarily an accuracy one, especially given the fact that Luther had foreknowledge of where the guns would be aimed via precognition.

I said three times that would of left a bullet, that first scan shows Luther's shoulder being ripped open, something similar happened when Shooter first shot him.

Your wording has me a bit confused. Luther's shoulder wasn't 'ripped open' at any point in the fight. If you're referring to the first shot Strode took, a bullet hole was visible later on when he's shown gathering a bullet from it:

No Caption Provided

If he was able to move this fast, he wouldn't be perceived by someone like Batman, much less challenged, yes Slade usually wins but the fact that Batman gets his hits in and people like Green Arrow have dodged Slade's attacks shows that "moving faster then thought itself" isn't "bit of a mantra for Slade"

I think you're misinterpreting "faster than thought." Never did I nor would I claim he can move faster than someone like Batman can so much as think, due to characters like that having pragmatically superhuman reactions. Furthermore, moving faster than thought doesn't mean you completely lap it. Various other street-levelers can move faster than thought, but it's not really as much of a milestone as you seem to think it is. Regardless, it's definitely a mantra given the fact that he's claimed such in both Pre-Crisis and Pre-Flashpoint continuities with several feats supporting those claims.

I don't think Strode outclasses Slade, but I believe he is faster, considering his Pre-cog advantage too, I believe it furthers the gap even more.

I feel that Slade is indeed superior in speed, and coupled with his strategy and skill advantages he'd be able to combat Luther's precognition effectively.

Win or lose, good debate.

Indeed. Cheers!

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#36 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for votes.

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#37 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@strangelegacy: @elijah_c_washington: my vote here goes to strangelegacy (prO). Whereas I feel that Elijah did an exceptional job (and becoming quite the debater), IMO I feel that PrO did the overall better job. His arguments for Strode were a bit more solid and covered some points that I wanted to see addressed. I felt that his rebuttals had a slight edge over the competitor, and that's why he gets it here. Keep in mind that this was close, I was swayed back and forth, and kudos to both debaters!!!!!!

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#42 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: Thanks for voting. Glad to see I could still impress.

indeed. Keep it up. Who knows what is in store for you, potentially really good things.

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#45 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by StrangeLegacy (221 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#47 Edited by Nathaniel_Adam (3703 posts) - - Show Bio

@strangelegacy:

My votes goes to him (Prometheus).

He had good counters as to why pre-cog would work (at first I thought it won't work on Slade but you provided enough evidence to convince me indeed it will). He highlighted the advantages that Strode (striking, pre-cog, durability) has over deasthstroke and how the main methods of offense used by Slade are also going to be his downfall (due to sufficient reaction time and insane throwing skills or grabbing sharp objects/bullets within his muscles plus taking advantage of the environment). He made direct comparisons between those two characters to back his statements (breaking chains). Though it's not that @elijah_c_washington is a bad debater but lack of strong counter-arguments and substantial proofs from him and on the other side Prom's points were more reasonable and evidently correct because he was exceedingly good at showing the crucial factors and what's going to boil down to respectively and how Strode beats Slade in the end. Nonetheless you both delivered a decent debate.

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#48 Posted by StrangeLegacy (221 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Prometheus won for me. It was a uphill battle the whole fight, but everything put out for Luther was better in stats. The best Slade had was possibly skill, and even that was minimal due to the move reading Precog, and Luther own proven showings of skill.

It was not a super fair fight when I first read this was Pre 52 Slade, and I was not convince otherwsise.