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#1 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

The showdown between Ultimate Marvel and Full Metal Alchemist.

HOF and leader of the FMA Team, @lunacyde!

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Wrath, Scar, and Greeling.

HOF and leader of the UM Team, @sirfizzwhizz!

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Captain America, Hawkeye, and Spider Man.

Rules

All Marvel are Ultimate versions.

All FMA are Composite versions.

Death or KO.

Random Encounter.

Start 25 feet apart here.

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#2 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36316 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy **** this is like one of those cool WWE grudge matches.

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#3 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#4 Posted by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

So excited, but I won't be able to get my intro up until late tonight/ tommorow.

Good Luck SFW

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#5 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@lukehero said:

Holy **** this is like one of those cool WWE grudge matches.

The last match was pretty bad, this one will be awesome. Him and I have a good idea of the characters used here, should be pretty even match up, and fun match.

@lunacyde said:

So excited, but I won't be able to get my intro up until late tonight/ tommorow.

Good Luck SFW

Cool I will open then. GL back.

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#6 Posted by Jtindall (130 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#7 Edited by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll try and be less abrasive this go round. :)

My intro music :

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#8 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde:

Alright open up, you know my team well, an most should but here is a run down of my team for others who dont.

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Ultimate Captain America. Defender of truth, Justice, and kicking you when you down. Not like your typical Captain America, this one is a total ruthless soldier out to kill you, or maim ya at best if you are the wrong side of the fight of him. He is the hero of WW2, leader of the Ultimates, and was even President of the United States, there is not much this man has not accomplished. Packing his meta human stats, insane skills, kevlar armor, assault rifle, grenades, and trademark shield, there is not much to stand in the way of this original Super Soldier.

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Ultimate Hawkeye is the man who never misses. Shields top agent, head of Black Ops, and leader of the Avengers, this man is the proven soldier that second only to Captain America. Highly train in all areas of special warfare, his primary skills is his perfect shots. Master of all forms of long range weapons whether guns, rockets, bows, knives, or even finger nails! He is on man you do not want to have his sights on you.

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Miles Morals, the Ultimate Spiderman. The successor of peter Parker after his supposed death, Miles was bitten by one of the genetic Spiders that happen to bite Peter. Only Miles inherent the same Spider Powers, and more. He is relatively young, but after much tutelage from Peters female clone, Spider Woman, Miles has really come into his own, and proven to Peter himself as worthy of the title Spiderman. With all the classic Spider Powers of increase stats, wall crawling, web slinging, and the Spider Sense, Miles also took the additional powers of camouflage, and the dreaded Venom Sting. He may be 15, but he is one kid who can take down the worst, and hang with the best.

With that out of the way, lets get to the debate itself. First up, lets talk stats.

Captain America

Strength

Strength wise Cap is a beast, he has shown feats in the 5+ range in lifting, and shown striking feats to KO or harm 100 toners. He is one deadly foe, and proven this time and again against the best.

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1) Smashing Tigra so hard to shatter a solid stone column.

2) Lifting a car as well a much heavier lair of concrete and solid earth in a close to 5 ton feat.

3) Stalemates Peter Parker who is a casual 6 toner, both seen struggling to hold the other.

4) Catches a 5+ ton falling tree in mid fall.

5) Catches Valkyries fist, even though she is Asgardian in strength, and block blows from a blood lusted Thor with no problem.

6) Blocks a fatal attack by Zarda , who is Hyperion's equal in the Supreme verse. Unlike 616 Steve's shield, 1610 Steve's shield does not disperse kinetic force, its all Caps muscles and strength hold against that blow.

I dont see anymore reason to dwell on strength but it is safe to say he is the strongest guy in this fight.

Speed

Then we have speed which is something many do not know, but something Ultimate cap excels at as well by feats.

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1-2) twice reacts to a electricity attack after it is fired to block.

3) Dodges computer targeting AK fire for practice.

4) Stay un hit by mass fire from train soldiers.

5) Shot by marksmen proven Moondragons, from all directions and remains un hit.

6) Hawekey fires tranq bullets, and Cap from close distance brings his shield around to deflect them back faster than they can reach him.

7-8) Twice again reacts to electricity attacks of Silver Herald as he fires on him.

Cap is fast, in reaction and combat speed. In short no one here is blitzing him.

Durability

Durability wise Cap is as tough as he is as strong. Tougher in fact.

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Here Cap tanks a blood thirsty thrashing from Hulk. Minimal damage.

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Here he physically blocks a blow from a blood thirsty Thor, that sends him flying through the city, and into a sky scraper. No real damage.

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Tanks a major attack from Abomination. Still gets up to fight just fine.

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Captain America suffered no physical damage from this Iron man slam. He was KOed, but the tons of tranqs pumped in him played a role for sure.

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Ultimate Cap slammed by a charging Warmachine through a city bridge, and is not KO at all. He was still fighting.

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Ultimate Cap takes Grenades to the face, and then is caught up in the explosion of a atomic bomb! He is merely KOed, and un damage physically.

The fact is Cap is insane durable to damage, and this is no small part due to his stats, as well his healing factor.

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1-2) While banner of all people thought cap would take longer to recover from 50+ years in the ice, Cap sprung into action ready to fight.

3) Cap explains he will heal busted bones in a few days.

4) Caps Healing Factor allowed him to cure Vampirism of all things in little over a day. Also states his near immunity to chemical warfare, heal stabs in minuets, and bullet wounds in hours.

This minor healing factor allows Cap to keep on chugging at full steam in a fight. It really helps and shows in his feats. Now lets discuss Miles Morals.

Miles

Speed

Miles as a Spider has the typical Spiderman like stats. While not as awesome as say 616 Peter Parker, he still has great Spider stats and feats. Speed for example shows how fast Miles can be. Thanks to his Spider Sense and Spider Speed, Miles shown great reaction, and combat speed feats.

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1-2) Dodges bullets at point blank with his spider speed, and Spider Sense.

3) Spider Sense and speed dodge the speed of explosion powers after they are fired at him and Spider Girl.

4) Dodges AR fire from multiple Hydra while taking them down.

5) Dodges AR fire from 6 SHIELD agents on full auto.

6) With Spider Sense and Speed he dodges the Heavy machine Guns of these computer targeting Warmachines.

7) Dodges Peter Parkers (616 version) Webbing with no effort. by feats 616 Peter's webbing is as fast as bullets.

In short Miles Spider Sense and speed combo will make him a hard target to hit, or deal with at all.

Strength

Now lets get into that famous Spider Strength.

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1-2) For Striking feats e has KOed, while knocking back Giant Woman.

3) Lifts a car and throws it.

Fact is Miles has close the to average 6 tons strength that the rest of the Ultimate Spider people have, only he will get stronger as he ages.

Durability

Miles like all Spiders have that tried and true durability. He can take punishment and keep going even though he is just a kid.

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Thats a big explosion to just get up, and walk away from.

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While this Koed Miles for a sec, its still more force Bane has ever showed ever. No damage on Miles either.

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Giant Woman was shown to have strength to catch a Helicarrier. This one picks Miles up, and full force slams him! He is not even out, just complains his back hurts. Playing possum.

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Scorpion craters the concrete ground with Miles body. his punches leaves craters, and he hit Miles in the face. Miles shrugs it off.

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Here he is thrown 100s of feet in the air and into a car. He is fine.

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Prowler uses sonic blasters that can devastate a city bus, and Miles tanks them head on with no real damage.

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Sent flying by a hit from Rhino. He is fine.

In short, miles can soak alot of kinetic damage. While not accustom to stabs or gun shot wounds, he still trucks on and does his best to win a fight. More often than not, he avoids major damage of such, unless he is very much distracted by plot.

Hawkeye

Speed

Finally I will delve into Hawkeye stats. starting with Strength! Peak human! That is it lol. Now lets skip that and go into his Speed. Hawkeye may not be strong, but thanks to his super human senses, skill, and "twitch factor", he is one hard dude to nail with a attack.

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1-2) Hawkeye with only seconds on the timer, manages to escape to the safest place on the building to avoid the blast, and manage to save another with him of his team. Even though he started in the middle of the building.

3-6) Hawkeye while heavily drugged shows not sign to slow down even though he had tons of soldiers surrounding him. Yet he manages to pick up the guns, and shoot them all before one can pull the trigger.

7) clearing a way through a war torn city, dodging gunfire with ease.

8-9) Here he manages to show us not only to keep up with Spider Man, but avoid his attacks as well.

Clint is very fast, super fast, and will not be the guy to lag behind in this match.

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He is also very agile with great jump ability. Just throwing that out there.

Durability

Then we also have some great durability for Hawekeye as well.

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1-2) Hawkeye withstands a very large explosive blast at ground zero.

3-4) Hawkeye gets caught up in searing Hellfire attacks of a Ghost Rider. none worse for the wear unlike his fellow troops.

5-6) Gets beat down by Hurricane Hypersonic attacks, and yet still gets back in the fight with no problems. continues a dragged out battle well after this fine. This was also after he sustain Torture for days on in before breaking free and joining the fight!

Needless to say, he is no weak link here in stats department.

Well that was alot of scans and info dropping on stats alone. Not that much of this matter beside strength and speed. Durability wise your team is not bashing mine into a KO, but your team will rely on stabs or alchemy to get the job done. No the end result is to prove already that my team is not going down due to stat edges of your team. My team all have the speed, and durability to hang it out. In the case of attacks when the real debating starts, two of my members will crush yours, well beside Greeling. This will be a pretty good battle, that only skills, gear, and powers will decide in the end. Before I head out, I will leave ya with this initial strategy.

Strategy

Both our teams have near stats where it matters, and both our teams know the other team mates very well. Teamwork, and complimenting the others abilities make sense here. My team has work together more than a few times, and will work well with each other now.

Miles

He will be leading the frontal attack with Captain America. No doubt open up with the stealth approach by going invisible as Cap should order off the bat.

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Cap

Cap will like wise charge in, guns blazing for cover fire, and testing the waters of the opponents speed. Cap is a strategic genius, and master tactician, this alone will provide crucial info on the capabilities of the enemy. In this case the speed, and no doubt Bradley's skill with the blades, or even Greeling's ultimate shield abilities.

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Hawkeye

This guy is putting distance between himself and the foes, and adding fire to the battle with his deadeye shots, and with that bow.

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In this way Hawkeye is adding to the range attacks, and forces the foe to use their powers and speed off the bat to compensate.

After all this?

We will let the battle play out from here. IMO my team will edge out this encounter do to the nature of gear, powers, and skills they all possess. I will touch more on the real reasons they win next post.

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#9 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

Grudge match?

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Nice! Get to see two great debaters one more time!

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#10 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

Grudge match?

Nice! Get to see two great debaters one more time!

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#11 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweetness. Tag me! Hope this goes better than the last match.

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#12 Posted by GhostRavage (14925 posts) - - Show Bio

Because stating both of you are in the HoF is totally relevant... Cocky bastards, i would stomp both of you.

/rant

On a serious note, tag for votes guys <3

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#13 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V, good luck!

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#14 Posted by deactivated-097092725 (10555 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me as well, please. Glad to see you two do this.

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#15 Posted by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes

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#16 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Because stating both of you are in the HoF is totally relevant... Cocky bastards, i would stomp both of you.

/rant

Says another HoF lol.

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#17 Posted by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz

SONNNOVA...

Apparently CV ate my post AGAIN.

No worries, I have it saved on word, but I have to wait til I get back on my computer to post it. Seeing AoU tonight so it'll be late, or early tomorrow.

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#18 Posted by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

Because stating both of you are in the HoF is totally relevant... Cocky bastards, i would stomp both of you.

/rant

On a serious note, tag for votes guys <3

Hey I never once mentioned it...that's all SFW. :P

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#19 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

Let me start off by saying, wow what a match-up. With the level of power and skill in this fight we are going to see some major destruction. I see a very tough opponent standing before us, but through a will to win, some key match-ups, and attrition my team will seize victory with bloodied hands.

For those who aren’t familiar with the abilities of my Team I will now do a brief overview.

King Bradley, the ruler of Amestris, raised from childhood for the sole purpose of being the ultimate warrior and leader. He was developed and trained from a young age, along with many other candidates for the role of being Father’s Wrath, and leading the nation of Amestris. He has a lifetime of experience and preparation in varying skills and fields such as martial arts, swordsmanship, military tactics, weapons mastery, and politics. During an experimental process that left all of the other subjects dead or horribly maimed Bradley was injected with a philosopher stone. Possessing superhuman physical attributes, an impressive regenerative factor, and most importantly his infamous Ultimate Eye King Bradley is not someone you want to see on the other side in a fight. He is a ruthless and deadly fighter capable of taking down even the greatest threats.

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Greeling is a combination of two souls sharing one body. One soul belongs to Greed, the distilled essence of Father’s near infinite avarice. The other soul, and the one in control for the sake of this fight is that of Ling Yao. Ling Yao is the Emperor of Xing’s 12th son, who accepted Greed into his body in order to uncover the secret to immortality. This combination makes for a dangerous opponent combining the skill and tactical prowess of the young prince with Greed’s impressive physical attributes and regenerative abilities. His trademark ability is that of the Ultimate Shield, an ability to rearrange the carbon molecules in his skin into a nigh unbreakable diamond-like substance that has only ever shown to be damaged through being changed on a molecular level by Alchemy.

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The Scarred man, also known as Scar was a serial killer and Ishvalan terrorist famous a dozen murders of high ranking and notable State Alchemists. He is a survivor of the Ishvalan War of Extermination where Amestrian soldiers, led by the State Alchemists slaughtered the people of Ishval in a bloody genocide. He is a highly skilled warrior greatly adept in H2H combat. His physical attributes are all well beyond the realm of normal humans capable of bullet-timing and dodging King Bradley’s attacks. Perhaps his deadliest abilities though lie in his left and right arms which are capable of powerful alchemy destroying and shaping nearly any material he can comprehend.

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King Bradley:

Speed – Here is where King Bradley really shines. He is arguably the fastest character in this battle in combat by feats. He is capable of bullet-timing with little effort, able to parry machinegun fire with a single sword, slice a tank shell in half, dance around rifle bullets coming from all directions casually, and easily counter attacks from other exceptionally fast opponents who themselves are capable of bullet-timing. He was also quick enough to run and leap along falling pieces of debris when his train was blown up over a bridge, and was able to dodge between flying shattered glass without so much as a scratch.

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He also has demonstrated the ability to move so fast he can quickly overwhelm others who are bullet-timers, even capable on occasion of moving so fast that even said bullet-timers could not detect his movement. This is exemplified when Edward Elric was undergoing his test to become a State Alchemist. King Bradley oversaw the examination and when Ed attacked Bradley to make a point Bradley unsheathed his sword and sliced Ed’s weapon in two so fast that Ed (a bullet-timer), and everyone else in the room was unable to actually tell he had moved at all.

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Start watching at the 20:00 mark.

Another example of this was when Isaac McDougal, the freezing Alchemist, attacked Bradley in a back alley. Isaac was shown capable of holding his own with both Ed and Al Elric, but when he attacked King Bradley the Fuhrer was able to deliver multiple sword slashes so fast Isaac couldn’t even perceive that he had moved.

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Even after sustaining injuries that would have killed a normal man multiple times over he was able to outrun Roy Mustang’s Flame Alchemy and speed blitz him before he could react.

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Bradley was able to speed blitz Lan Fan and Fu who are both also bullet-timers, adding to the list of impressive characters he has overwhelmed with speed. Bradley was also able to kill at least 5 Briggs soldiers so fast they couldn’t react on two separate occasions, the first time doing so before the glass from the door he just ran through had even hit the ground. Briggs troops are nothing to scoff at. They are the finest military operators in Amestris, and by extension the known world in FMA. They always win, and they were tearing through the Central forces with ease despite their far smaller numbers and resources. Each Briggs man is capable of defeating a Grizzly bear in combat and yet he was able to kill 5 of them in less than a second.

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Most of the aforementioned feats were accomplished without even utilizing the power of King Bradley’s Ultimate Eye. I am mentioning the Ultimate Eye here because it increases Bradley’s speed and reflexes to an even higher level by giving him perfect vision, and allowing him to predict his opponent’s moves in what is like a combination of Midnighter’s Battle Computer and Lady Shiva’s move reading. The Ultimate Eye is capable of seeing everything flawlessly, including things invisible to normal humans like air currents, as is stated in his fight with Roy Mustang. The Ultimate Eye is also capable of pinpointing any weaknesses in a structure or opponent in seconds, even sometimes less than a second. It was able to calculate a perfect path to run among the falling debris when his train was destroyed for example.

These feats together put him on par or above anything your team can show as far as speed. I am not saying that your team is not impressively fast, but there is no one with the quality of speed feats to compare with Bradley.

Strength – Compared with your two strongest fighters Bradley isn’t particularly strong, but he isn’t a weakling either. He was able to throw Greed a good distance through the stoned walls of the Sewer, tackled Greeling through the fortified rampart walls of Central Command, cut through solid stone, steel tank treads, and sliced in half superhumanly durable Chimera’s with normal swords.

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Durability – Once again Bradley is not as impressively durable as Ult. Cap, but he isn’t a slouch either. I’m going to combine durability, damage soak, stamina, and HF all together for the sake of this argument. His Brotherhood form, which lacks the regenerative abilities of his FMA form was able to survive the train explosion, make it all the way back to Central from East on foot (crossing half the country), sustain a stab wound that would kill a normal man, have his ultimate eye cut when Greeling’s enraged attack broke through the sword he attempted to block with, got shot with a bolt-action rifle straight through the shoulder when he was dangling in a vulnerable position, fell over a hundred feet into a moat, subdued Roy Mustang while bleeding out, got stabbed through the shoulder and torso by multiple massive spikes in his fight with Scar, got hit by one of Scar’s alchemy attacks moving with what should be the force of a speeding car, and finally only was defeated when the eclipse blinded him momentarily and Scar was able to destroy his swords and cut off his arms in a single blow, and even then Bradley was able to catch a flying shard of the blade with his teeth and stab Scar with it. When we add in the FMA version’s ridiculous regenerative factor that allowed him to return from having his entire body nearly incinerated in seconds Bradley has some serious durability.

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Greeling:

Speed – Greeling’s speed is also superhuman. He was capable on multiple occasions of moving fast enough to fight Bradley, though Bradley always held the upper hand.

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When old man Fu was injured Greeling was able to move fast enough that he was able to get from one side of the courtyard to the other nearly instantly, saving him from Bradley’s blade. Greeling is a bullet-timer as shown by his fight against Central troops. He was able to take out multiple central soldiers before they could react, and he’s fast enough to trade blows with Ed, who I’ve already mentioned is a bullet-timer.

Strength – Greeling has superhuman strength sufficient enough to crush stone just by squeezing his fist, and rending steel with little effort. He was able to tear Ed’s automail apart with ease. His punches were able to send Gluttony flying and Gluttony is exceptionally heavy.

Durability – And here is where Greeling shines. His body is superhumanly durable to blunt force before his ultimate shield is engaged (as shown when he leapt from a ledge dropping several stories before landing on his feet and cracking the pavement where he landed), after it is engaged he has the durability to not even flinch when hit with the blast from an RPG at point blank range, to smile when sustaining assault rifle fire, and sustain not so much as a scratch when being hit by a speeding military armored truck.

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Bradley, using the same swords that he used to cut through solid stone and steel was unable to leave a mark on Greeling’s ultimate shield and broke one of his swords trying to do so. In all honesty the Ultimate Shield has never been penetrated by anything short of using alchemy to alter its molecular structure. Add in the fact that he can heal back from having his head smashed off in seconds and it’s going to be a tall order for your team to defeat him.

Scar:

Speed – Scar is also one of the fastest characters in FMA. He’s a bullet-timer as he demonstrates by dodging all of Riza Hawkeye’s shots. Lieutenant Hawkeye is a decorated military sharpshooter and weapons expert given the title “The Hawk’s Eye” in the Ishvalan Conflict because it is said she never misses a shot. However, Scar was able to dodge her shots in an impressive display, and even when he was being set up and distracted by Major Armstrong he was able to react and dodge a rifle shot from Hawkeye.

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Earlier in the Ishvalan conflict he dodges multiple soldiers shots while taking them all out through melee. He also demonstrates considerable speed engaging King Bradley in combat, defeating Ed and Al in combat (and outspeeding them), nearly killing Major Armstrong, defeating several other noted alchemists including one renowned as a weapons master, speedblitzing the Iron Blood Alchemist even though he had a philosopher’s stone, dodging speeding projectiles from alchemists and chimeras, and taking on dozens of superhuman Chimeras unarmed.

Strength – Scar is a considerably strong fighter utilizing his physicality and melee skill to subdue opponents even before he got his destructive alchemic abilities. We don’t get to see a lot of what could be considered striking feats because of his destructive alchemic abilities, but before he got them he was OHKOing soldiers, and slammed one against a wall so hard it cracked the stone. He was able to grapple with Bradley, and his blows were enough to send opponents like Bradley flying across the room.

Durability– Scar has pretty dang good durability, stamina, and damage soak. He sustains serious injuries in his fight with Bradley but keeps on fighting, including devastating slashes to his shoulders, a blade clean through his wrist, and being stabbed through the chest. He has shown able to fight through injuries that would stop a normal man, He also survived a point blank explosion from a philosopher stone amped Kimblee, fought Kimblee while missing his arm and bleeding out, then gave his second arm to save Alphonse, and was still able to go on and accomplish the mission.

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Strategy:

My team have all demonstrated the ability to work together towards a common goal, even if it means teaming up with someone they may detest on a personal level. They are all familiar with what each other can do having all fought each other at some point or seen each other fight. All three are exceptional fighters with at least some degree of tactical ability, although admittedly not on Ult. Cap’s level, but the point is that they are not tactically stupid, and will not make dumb mistakes to give your team an easy win.

Having Miles use his camouflage immediately is a mistake. It takes the element of surprise away from the ability, and considering two out of my 3 team members have the ability to detect him even in his camouflaged state it gives my team an interesting advantage. Miles will think that we cannot detect him, but we can. Given that Miles is a kid with nowhere near the training of the other combatants here, and the fact he tends to not think things through, and make mistakes like this it’s not hard to see him trying to attack us and being taken out of the fight early because he underestimated our ability to detect him.

“He will be leading the frontal attack with Captain America. No doubt open up with the stealth approach by going invisible as Cap should order off the bat.”

Having him leading the charge with Cap (as you stated in your initial strategy) is dangerous for you. If he underestimates King Bradley and Greed both are very able to tag him and make it count.

Our initial strategy upon seeing the camouflage will be to keep close together in order to watch each other’s backs. Scar will use his alchemy to create cover and then send a volley of razor sharp bullet-like stones at Hawkeye like he did in his fight with Bradley (since Hawkeye is not invisible and doesn’t have a shield to block with) and perhaps use some earth spikes to attack Cap, or keep Hawkeye on his toes if he survives the initial attack. Seeing opponents like this Greeling will go full shield and prepare for melee, no point in hiding this ability when he’ll likely need it early on. Bradley will deflect any bullets coming at himself or Scar if he has to, but will use this opportunity to get a read on any weaknesses he can exploit.

@sirfizzwhizz

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#21 Edited by AllStarSuperman (42634 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

Online
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#22 Posted by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry, tried to hide the pics and videos with spoiler blocks but it just deleted my videos and pics.

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#23 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: looking good, get back to this tonight.

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#24 Posted by Devil_Driver (1577 posts) - - Show Bio
For Voting
For Voting

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#25 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: Let officially get this debate started!

Having Miles use his camouflage immediately is a mistake. It takes the element of surprise away from the ability, and considering two out of my 3 team members have the ability to detect him even in his camouflaged state it gives my team an interesting advantage. Miles will think that we cannot detect him, but we can. Given that Miles is a kid with nowhere near the training of the other combatants here, and the fact he tends to not think things through, and make mistakes like this it’s not hard to see him trying to attack us and being taken out of the fight early because he underestimated our ability to detect him.

Most of this is true. However there is one key thing here, the only person who can IMO reliably detect Miles is Bradley thanks to the Ultimate Eye. Greedling and Scar are having tons of bullets from one excellent marksmen in Captain America, and from the best marksmen in a universe firing a volley of arrows in Hawkeye. Im not seeing Greedling or Scar having any time to think about it unlike Bradley who will just see through it. Cap is also charging in too.

now in Miles defense, he is not the best fighter. Not the most talented. He still is a proven fighter who fought and beaten foes like Electro, Venom, Green Goblin, and more. Villains who would and could defeat this whole group here. The thing is Miles on his own beaten foes that are far above his abilities, and yet thanks to his experience and powers still manage to beat them. He is not that outclass by feats.

Having him leading the charge with Cap (as you stated in your initial strategy) is dangerous for you. If he underestimates King Bradley and Greed both are very able to tag him and make it count.

I am not too worried about. Being invisible does not make Miles Spider Speed or Sense magically go away. He is still fully capable of dodging attacks in this state. Anyone comes to attack him, he will react with the same speed to dance between bullets.

Our initial strategy upon seeing the camouflage will be to keep close together in order to watch each other’s backs. Scar will use his alchemy to create cover and then send a volley of razor sharp bullet-like stones at Hawkeye like he did in his fight with Bradley (since Hawkeye is not invisible and doesn’t have a shield to block with) and perhaps use some earth spikes to attack Cap, or keep Hawkeye on his toes if he survives the initial attack. Seeing opponents like this Greeling will go full shield and prepare for melee, no point in hiding this ability when he’ll likely need it early on. Bradley will deflect any bullets coming at himself or Scar if he has to, but will use this opportunity to get a read on any weaknesses he can exploit.

Scar opening up like that makes sense, and the group sticking close together makes sense. However Clint will likely dodge the attack as easy as he dodges Peter Parkers webbing or the mass fire of other soldiers firing on him. Clint has super speed perception, and the feats to dodge those attack easy. Plus there is plenty of cars between us to grant layered levels of cover. He can quickly duck behind vehicles, and then jump out rapid shotting his bow at 3 foes in the same spot. Your guys defelcting attacks and using that ultimate Shield makes sense as well, and will grant VALUABLE knowledge to the speed level and defense my team is looking at here.

Battle Continues

Its hard to say who will match up with who. I have a idea how I like it to match up, and you yourself the same way. So all in all I will explain how this works either way.

Miles

Vs Bradley

Worst match up for Miles but not impossible either. Miles will come up to attack, more than likely be nearly killed by Bradley who will see through his camouflage, but avoid it thanks to his speed feats, and spider sense. Realizing the speed of and skill of Bradley, Miles has two options. Keep dodging till tagged, or use his web spam.

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Web Spam several SHIELD agents firing on him, and web spam a bar fool of people fighting.

Miles has twice shown the intelligence enough to use web spam. Not a go to move at all, but fighting someone like Bradley would make sense considering his speed and seeing through the invisibility. Much like the SHIELD agents that overwhelmed Miles with a surprise volley of many bullets, I see the same AOE Web Spam here to slow down and stick Bradly for the time. In which case Ultimate Cap or Hawkeye can kill him in that state.

Vs Scar

a fair match up. Scar is fast and skilled enough, but Miles has the web advantage, strangth, cloak, and venom sting abilities. Scar could kill Miles with a well place grab, but same can be said for Miles KOing Scar with a single Venom Sting.

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Why i showed these feats? to show how touch Scorpion is. Prowler hits Scorpion with enough electricity that it fried his henchmen to a crisp, and Scorpion was fine. Then Prowler hits Scorpion and more henchmen with a volley of razor edge steel projectiles that shred normal humans. Scorpion is not only fine, but heals all the wounds the next day.

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Here again we see he is bullet proof, and shows great super human strength to rag doll Miles.

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Then Miles here KOes Scorpion with a single venom sting to the foot, through a leather boot.

Scar is no more durable than Scorpion in any way, and Scorpion is still down for the count after a small Venom sting. So at best Miles dispatches him easy with a sneak attack and moves on, or at worst Miles dies and Scar is KOed for hours in a liekly double KO. Miles could arguably take Scar down with Webbing at distance for distraction, and his super strength for a single KO.

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He has KOed Giant Woman with two blows.

Vs Greeling

Best match up IMO. Greeling has this Ultimate Shield, but thanks to Cap tactical abilities, I can easily see Cap telling Miles perfectly tooled powers to get around it. Miles stats are more than enough to tangle with Greeling, and his Webs and Venom Sting is perfect counters. Miles can Web Incap the old boy, or he can simply Venom sting which is a move Miles open with more than once on foes. Greeling has a healing factor? the Venom sting still would by pass that.

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In both cases here Miles totally ended the super healing Symbiot.

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1) We see Venom casually surviving being absorbed into a wrist device. 2) Survives having peter rip through the inside. 3) Have his head cut in half only to instant regen it. 4) Solid projectiles dont even tickle him.

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Heck the Venom suit soul purpose is to heal. Thats its main power. Yet Miles Venom Sting both fights takes this beast down.

So if the Venom Sting works on Venom and its healing abilities, i see no counter for Ultimate Shield Greeling not to get taken down. Same for the webbing to incapacitate Greeling.

Captain America

Vs Bradley

The best in terms of equal match ups. These two would balance out the other well IMO. They have advantages in some areas, but both match up well in stats, skill, ect that its a tough call. A whole CaV can go into this alone. The only advantages here is Cap grenades grant some big benefits to turn the tide. A Flash Bang for example.

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He has used them before, and its a pretty standard grenade to get a hold of.

https://youtu.be/rqO2_qRFHjI?t=304

Its what got him killed pretty much last time. I can see this helping again.

The areas Cap excels at is the minor Healing Factor, super strength to one shot Wrath with a solid enough hit, and the Shield to counter. The best part here too is also the Frag Grenades that will come into play.

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As seen in these scans, the accuracy of Caps use of Frags is insane. Able to land it on the blades of a super speed Wolverine is enough to say Cap can toss a Frag at Bradley and get lucky.

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Like so.

The only reason I think cap can pull this off is for all the benefits the ultimate Eye has, there is limits to it, and Cap is a insane genius in fighting.

The guy is a genius of warfare and fighting. He is a genius in finding a weak spot, minimizing someones strength, and above all using what he has for a win.

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Ultimate Cap is ALOT like Deathstroke in the fact he is not a acclaim martial artist, but is super intelligent in fights, and holds his own against the best fighters with no problem. Add in all the gear here like Shield, Guns, and Grenades that Cap uses is a bonus.

He is just that damn smart and good at fighting. A Genius. Leads teams against impossible odds, and beats down a whole Avengers team by himself alone. He is just that clever. I can see this being a near even match, till Cap using his military grade grenades pull the win. best part about Caps grenades is he can also help Miles and hawkeye get KOs with a well place Frag or Flash Bang as well. Bonus while dealing with Wrath.

Vs Scar

While Scar can decimate the Shield, he is more than dealt with by Cap way easier than Bradly. Scar could not really on his own best a very injured Bradely missing his Ultimate Eye. I am just not convince he last long at all against Cap who could decimate him with a single well place Shield strike or Grenade.

Vs Greeling

another interesting match, Cap would have no real way to put Greeling down. That healing with Ultimate Shield is trumping almost everything Cap is bringing. The best Cap can do here is focuse Hawkeye or Miles on Greeling, and ignore him to take out Scar or match Bradley.

A well place Flash or Frag will further aid Cap to simply stun Greeling to get at a real viable target, issuing orders for Miles or Hawkeye to take him out.

Hawkeye

Hawkeye is not engaging anyone specifically. Not at all. His job is to lay down non stop fire, and try to spot a weakness to exploit for his trick arrows. As I said earlier, Hawkeye is a master tactician as well. not as good as Cap, but good enough to lead teams against major world threats and pull off impossible Black Ops missions.He was leader of the Ultimate Avengers for a time.

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This whole scan sums up what i am saying. A Leader, spots weakness in just about anything, and thinks of ways to accomplish the impossible. In short he is easily the most dangerous guy here IMO. While a two on three seems to favor you in combat, the fact Hawkeye is laying down constant cover fire from his super senses and twitch factor is a major obstacle for your team.

Twitch factor. What is the twitch factor most ask? Its the ability to fire and throw and attack at super speeds in his hands. It also explains his way faster than human reactions as shown above in his speed feats.

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It is the ability to allow Hawkeye to fire arrows faster than the can leave the bow.

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In all the feats above, we see Hawkeye able to offload arrows one at a time faster than a machine gun can bullets. He simply shoots this fast and is known for it.

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His cover art shows it lol.

This is the level of arrows flying at your team in a constant volley at a time. In this way Hawkeye will see, and target any foe that might gang up on Miles or Cap. In this way he can see what powers your team is using, and choosing the perfect counter via Trick Arrow.

Bradley is not being taken out in any easy way. The best counter Hawkeye through his own major strategic mind would be fire on Bradley, distracting him enough with fire till Miles or cap handle him with a attack to take him out. There is one Trick Arrow that can help alot though. The Flash Arrow.

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Same scenario as before. Hawkeye tells his team to follow up after this next arrow shot, the team is prepared for it, and your team is blinded. We all know how well Bradley fairs against a blinding attack. Allows Cap or Miles to rush in for the KO. Works on the rest of your team that may happen be looking at it.

Greeling is not too tough to counter. There is two Arrows I can think of. One is the Taser arrow.

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The Taser Arrow is one he pulled on Rogue and it just poured on a non stop buzz on her till SHIELD got her.

This arrow is useful in the fact that the electrical discharge from it would royally stun Greeling. He has no feats to suggest otherwise really. Another arrow useful is the explosive arrows.

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These Arrows were used to by pass enraged Hulks durability, blowing off his face.

While Iron Man may have blasted the face as well, Iron man's best attacks never harmed Hulk in anyway before that, which is why he needed the Hulk Buster, and he laid down his best attacks already to no avail. Iron Man simply blew the arrows up with a moderate blast, meaning the Arrows did most the work to by pass Hulks insane durability. I see no reason for the Ultimate Shield to fair better. This will not put Greeling down, but leaves him distracted on major healing while Cap and Miles take out his team, or for Miles alone to quickly deal with him in that weaken state.

Then there is Scar. not much needs to be said here. He is having tough enough time dealing with Miles and Cap in his face without trying to dodge Hawkeye's super accurate arrows. Yes, accuracy Scar face before in Lt. Hawkeye, but seriously, Ultimate Hawkeye > Lt. Hawkeye.

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He tags Ghost Rider moving at 200+ miles per hour and nearly a mile away with a inaccurate RPG good only for 1/5 that distance.

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Able to tag 4 head shots on killing machines, saving cap, and did this while BLIND!

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Yes you read this right. This is Hawkeye killing a room of body armor wearing soldiers, with his finger nails..... let that accuracy and ability alone sink in.

Yes, dodging Lt. Hawkeye is nothing like dodging Hawkeye at all. Laying down as much fire power he is, its sure thing Scar will get messed up.

Summary

in the end my team has the gear and powers to really lay into your team, and with the proven effective distract techniques, as well Hawkeye's insane accurate cover fire will lead the whole team to victory. All my characters have ways to deal with yours, and Greeling is really the hardest to put down, while my team can realistically keep your team off balance enough to make this a quick 3 on 1 scenario.

Again my team is opening up cover fire from the get go, and in so doing getting a good read of your characters powers and speed, which is crucial first hand knowledge here. After that the Genius of both Cap and Hawkeye with the very versatile powers of Miles is exploiting any possible weakness. Hawkeye cover fire is keeping your team off balance for sure, and cap and Miles will tear on through the team as I mention above.

This match up comes to my characters versatile abilities/gear with their great stats pulling the win.

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#26 Edited by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

Rebuttal

@lunacyde: Let officially get this debate started!

Most of this is true. However there is one key thing here, the only person who can IMO reliably detect Miles is Bradley thanks to the Ultimate Eye. Greedling and Scar are having tons of bullets from one excellent marksmen in Captain America, and from the best marksmen in a universe firing a volley of arrows in Hawkeye. Im not seeing Greedling or Scar having any time to think about it unlike Bradley who will just see through it. Cap is also charging in too.

Not a bad analysis, but you are missing one important point. Greedling can read the dragon’s pulse. This means that he is capable of detecting the flow of chi (life energy) in the environment around him allowing him a 360 degree ability much like Daredevil’s radar sense. He, as well as Lan Fan, demonstrated this ability when fighting Gluttony in the pitch black where it was so dark it was commented that the characters could not see their own hands in front of their faces. They were able to nimbly and deftly maneuver their way around in the dark and use precision attacks on Gluttony using this ability. Upon seeing Miles go invisible Greedling would immediately pick up on his chi via this technique allowing him to react to Miles, much to Miles’ surprise. As I will explain later there will also be an answer for Hawkeye’s arrows.

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now in Miles defense, he is not the best fighter. Not the most talented. He still is a proven fighter who fought and beaten foes like Electro, Venom, Green Goblin, and more. Villains who would and could defeat this whole group here. The thing is Miles on his own beaten foes that are far above his abilities, and yet thanks to his experience and powers still manage to beat them. He is not that outclass by feats.

You are absolutely correct in your evaluation of Miles not being the best fighter; I will certainly not disagree with you there. It has been stated multiple times in the comics that he even forgets that he has powers like his camouflage and venom sting, or at least forgets to use them in battle. It has also been shown that he believes his spider-sense is annoying, and that he certainly has not learned to use it to the best of his ability. Granted, he has faced and taken down some very strong opponents, and I’m not saying that Miles is terrible. However he has a track record of making mistakes, not utilizing his powers to the best of their ability, and generally leaning on his powers to come through in the end. He is not well trained, he is not particularly experienced with opponents on this level of skill, and he tends to be sloppy. I am not going to get into the claim that those villains could solo this whole group here because that is a whole different debate in and of itself, but in a lot of those cases he relied on luck, and powers that are more effective against those opponents than they will be against my team. Furthermore none of those opponents hold a candle to my team in terms of skill. They all rely on their physical stats and power output to defeat opponents. Is Miles outclassed by feats in physicals and powers? Certainly not. However he is greatly outclassed in fighting skill, tactical thinking, and experience.

I am not too worried about. Being invisible does not make Miles Spider Speed or Sense magically go away. He is still fully capable of dodging attacks in this state. Anyone comes to attack him, he will react with the same speed to dance between bullets.

No, being invisible does not make Mile’s spider-sense go away, but it makes him less likely to utilize it to the best of his ability. If he thinks that his opponent cannot see him, his guard is going to be naturally lowered. He’s a teenage kid, not a hardened combat veteran. This gives my team the advantage. We already know that he has disregarded, or looked at his spider-sense as a nuisance in situations in the past. Furthermore his spider-sense only gives him a notion that he is in immediate danger, it does not tell him where the danger is coming from. With opponents as fast as Bradley (who has struck so fast bullet-timers didn’t see him) and Greedling (who moved from one side of the courtyard to the other so fast he couldn’t be seen in between) it is entirely possible that they could land a hit given the advantage of surprise. Peter was able to web his mask off before he could react, and Scorpion was able to grab Miles, so it’s certainly not outside the realm of possibility. Everyone here is fast enough to dance between bullets. If Miles is in the midst of trying to attack me it is going to be very difficult for him to suddenly change direction when he is caught off guard and avoid someone as fast as Bradley or Greedling, even moreso Bradley since he’ll be able to predict where Miles is going to be. In the end it’s more likely that Miles can be taken off guard and tagged in this situation than it is that he can go unscathed given his history. Furthermore one connection from Bradley or Greedling is going to severely injure or kill Miles. Bradley can slice through solid stone and steel with his swords and Greedling’s claws are sharp enough to tear through steel with ease. I know Miles has a mild healing factor, but it’s not going to be enough to come back when either of them connect.

Our initial strategy upon seeing the camouflage will be to keep close together in order to watch each other’s backs. Scar will use his alchemy to create cover and then send a volley of razor sharp bullet-like stones at Hawkeye like he did in his fight with Bradley (since Hawkeye is not invisible and doesn’t have a shield to block with) and perhaps use some earth spikes to attack Cap, or keep Hawkeye on his toes if he survives the initial attack. Seeing opponents like this Greeling will go full shield and prepare for melee, no point in hiding this ability when he’ll likely need it early on. Bradley will deflect any bullets coming at himself or Scar if he has to, but will use this opportunity to get a read on any weaknesses he can exploit.

Scar opening up like that makes sense, and the group sticking close together makes sense. However Clint will likely dodge the attack as easy as he dodges Peter Parkers webbing or the mass fire of other soldiers firing on him. Clint has super speed perception, and the feats to dodge those attack easy. Plus there is plenty of cars between us to grant layered levels of cover. He can quickly duck behind vehicles, and then jump out rapid shotting his bow at 3 foes in the same spot. Your guys defelcting attacks and using that ultimate Shield makes sense as well, and will grant VALUABLE knowledge to the speed level and defense my team is looking at here.

No doubt, I never believed that such an attack would be the end of Clint. At best I expect that part of it may catch a glancing blow and injure him slightly due to it having an area of effect. At worst for me it gets Clint off balance and causes him aggravation. As for the cars I have no doubt he can make good use of them, and get of intermittent shots at my team. That said, everyone on my team is easily fast enough to dodge arrows. They are all fast enough to dodge bullets, and arrows travel significantly slower. Then we add in the fact that Scar’s primary job is to create cover with his alchemy, both for himself and my team. He can throw up some obstacles to obscure my team from Hawkeye and keep Hawkeye moving to try and find an angle he can attack from. Obviously your team can observe mine countering and glean information just as you suggest. There is really no point in hiding those abilities at this stage in the fight.

Battle Continues

Its hard to say who will match up with who. I have a idea how I like it to match up, and you yourself the same way. So all in all I will explain how this works either way.

I don’t particularly care how my team matches up; we won’t be trying to match up person to person, but instead will be filling different roles. As I have already suggested Scar’s primary purpose early in the battle is to create cover and secondarily use his alchemy at range to keep Hawkeye on his toes.

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Given his feats in this fight I don't think there is any question Scar can create walls and other obstacles for cover.

King Bradley will be the eyes of my team spotting any weaknesses in the opponent and relaying any information about what they are going to do. He also serves as a secondary defense deflecting any stray projectiles that may threaten my team. Once your frontal assault arrives he will engage whichever one attacks him first, or is nearest to him. Greedling serves as a sensor, using his Dragon’s pulse, and secondarily is a tank. It doesn’t really matter how either of these match up, because either can do exceptionally well against either of their opponents as I will touch on soon.

Miles

Vs Bradley

Worst match up for Miles but not impossible either. Miles will come up to attack, more than likely be nearly killed by Bradley who will see through his camouflage, but avoid it thanks to his speed feats, and spider sense. Realizing the speed of and skill of Bradley, Miles has two options. Keep dodging till tagged, or use his web spam.

As I have already explained I believe it’s more likely that Miles does not fully dodge Bradley’s attack. It’s possible he can dodge it, but not likely taking all factors into account. His guard will be lower being invisible; he won’t expect Bradley to take a swing at him at exactly the right time. The great thing about Bradley is that he can predict Mile’s attack and time it perfectly to catch Miles off guard. Miles will have to do everything absolutely perfectly to come away without being hit in this situation. Bradley is fast enough to tag bullet-timers and move so fast they can’t see him without the use of his Ultimate Eye. With it I don’t really see Miles having a chance. He will have to detect it, actually listen to his spider-sense, figure out where the danger is coming from since his spider-sense just gives a general warning of danger, and then move to avoid the strike. Against someone as fast and precise as Bradley the odds are stacked heavily against him. Bradley also has the reach advantage because of his swords. Bradley clearly is way out of Miles league in skill and just has the perfect set of abilities and training to take him down in this situation.

Miles has twice shown the intelligence enough to use web spam. Not a go to move at all, but fighting someone like Bradley would make sense considering his speed and seeing through the invisibility. Much like the SHIELD agents that overwhelmed Miles with a surprise volley of many bullets, I see the same AOE Web Spam here to slow down and stick Bradly for the time. In which case Ultimate Cap or Hawkeye can kill him in that state.

Assuming that Miles makes it that long it is entirely possible that he may employ web spam, but I hardly think it would be very effective against Bradley. Bradley is far faster than Clint is and Clint was able as you showed to avoid Spider-Man’s web spam. Given all of his abilities I don’t think it should be a problem at all for Bradley. You can hardly compare Bradley to random shield agents in reaction time, speed, or ability to avoid attacks. Also, if it came down to it I see no reason that Bradley couldn’t easily slice through the webbing, especially given he could detect its weakest points. It seems like a long shot for that tactic to work in my opinion.

Vs Scar

a fair match up. Scar is fast and skilled enough, but Miles has the web advantage, strangth, cloak, and venom sting abilities. Scar could kill Miles with a well place grab, but same can be said for Miles KOing Scar with a single Venom Sting.

Scar is no more durable than Scorpion in any way, and Scorpion is still down for the count after a small Venom sting. So at best Miles dispatches him easy with a sneak attack and moves on, or at worst Miles dies and Scar is KOed for hours in a liekly double KO. Miles could arguably take Scar down with Webbing at distance for distraction, and his super strength for a single KO.

He has KOed Giant Woman with two blows.

This is mostly true, but as I have explained the members of my team are broken down into roles. There is no situation where Scar should have to face Miles because Greedling and Bradley are capable of detecting him and will engage him before he can get to Scar.

Vs Greeling

Best match up IMO. Greeling has this Ultimate Shield, but thanks to Cap tactical abilities, I can easily see Cap telling Miles perfectly tooled powers to get around it. Miles stats are more than enough to tangle with Greeling, and his Webs and Venom Sting is perfect counters. Miles can Web Incap the old boy, or he can simply Venom sting which is a move Miles open with more than once on foes. Greeling has a healing factor? the Venom sting still would by pass that.

So if the Venom Sting works on Venom and its healing abilities, i see no counter for Ultimate Shield Greeling not to get taken down. Same for the webbing to incapacitate Greeling.

Unfortunately for you what you think is a clever way around Greedling’s durability is not nearly as effective as you believe. Mile’s venom sting is a bio-electric attack. Very fortunately for my team Greedling’s Ultimate Shield utilizes his ability to alter the carbon in his body into a diamond-like structure granting him nigh invulnerability. Here is where it gets interesting. Diamond is an excellent electrical insulator, and one of the most electrically resistant materials on Earth. Pure diamond that is 100% carbon has an electrical resistance greater than insulators used in most power plants and power lines, such as glass, ceramics, plastics, and rubber. This means that your bio-electric attacks will not conduct through his shield. Now, I am not insinuating that the venom sting will not affect Greedling at all; I am merely saying that it will take multiple strikes to take him down. It took 4 full strength venom stings to take Venom down, and Venom has demonstrated a weakness to electrical based attacks. Greedling has a shield that is composed of a substance that greatly resists such attacks so I think it’s fair to say that it should take more than 4 full powered venom sting strikes to take down Greedling. As far as web incapacitation it’s possible he could tag Greedling, but Greedling is not slow and he has claws easily capable of cutting through the webbing. Greedling is fast enough to block Bradley’s blows, though not fast enough to hardly ever gain the upper hand, quick and agile enough to dodge Pride’s shadows, and has moved fast enough to save Fu from Bradley’s sword and moved across the courtyard so fast that he couldn’t be seen in between.

However just as with Bradley Greedling has a way of detecting invisible Miles. This means that once again he has the opportunity to catch Miles off guard. Greedling is far from stupid either, as a Prince Ling was trained in battle tactics and strategy and has shown to be very capable of implementing his own strategies against opponents such as always moving to get in Bradley’s blind spot when he’s wearing his eye patch. He also gets the opportunity to surprise Miles if Miles tries to use a venom sting on him. Miles will be expecting Greedling to go down, so when he doesn’t this gives another tactical opportunity for Greedling to land a surprise blow that will do serious damage to Miles, perhaps even kill him.

Captain America

Vs Bradley

The best in terms of equal match ups. These two would balance out the other well IMO. They have advantages in some areas, but both match up well in stats, skill, ect that its a tough call. A whole CaV can go into this alone. The only advantages here is Cap grenades grant some big benefits to turn the tide. A Flash Bang for example.

I Agreed wholeheartedly that these two are a great match-up with each having certain advantages. However I think that the advantages granted by the grenades/flash-bangs will be minimal. Both grenades and flash-bangs exist in FMA, and Bradley has been trained since childhood in military tactics and weaponry. He understands fully how they work and what they do. Furthermore his ability to predict his opponent’s moves and the trajectories of objects means that he will undoubtedly be able to counter such measures. If the grenade throw is anywhere near him in the air he can simply cut the grenade in half before it explodes, or he can avoid it altogether while warning his team before the grenade even leaves Cap’s hand. Scar can shield with alchemy, and they aren’t going to scratch Greedling. Frag grenades are also impossible to use once Miles or Cap get into close quarters fighting.

The areas Cap excels at is the minor Healing Factor, super strength to one shot Wrath with a solid enough hit, and the Shield to counter. The best part here too is also the Frag Grenades that will come into play.

I agree Cap’s super strength is impressive, but I can’t see him getting a solid hit on Bradley with his Ultimate Eye. Bradley is already faster in combat than Cap by feats, and then he has the ability to predict all of Cap’s moves before they even happen. If Ultimate Nuke could give Ultimate Cap hell, Bradley can too. Cap’s healing shouldn’t be a factor in this fight. The only thing he can heal from fast enough to make a difference are knife wounds. Bullet wounds and greater were stated as taking over an hour to heal. bradley is one of the few street level characters I can see overwhelming Steve with speed, after all he had trouble with Ultimate nuke, and Ultimate Nuke is nowhere on Bradley's level on reflex and speed feats.

The only reason I think cap can pull this off is for all the benefits the ultimate Eye has, there is limits to it, and Cap is a insane genius in fighting.

He is just that damn smart and good at fighting. A Genius. Leads teams against impossible odds, and beats down a whole Avengers team by himself alone. He is just that clever. I can see this being a near even match, till Cap using his military grade grenades pull the win. best part about Caps grenades is he can also help Miles and hawkeye get KOs with a well place Frag or Flash Bang as well. Bonus while dealing with Wrath.

Yes there are limits to the Ultimate Eye. His aging body cannot actually keep up with the speed ogf the calculation and predictions of the Eye, BUT this doesn’t matter here because even though he can’t implement the predictions as fast as the eye can make them, he still is fast enough to do all the things he has done, most of the time not even using the eye at all because he didn’t want to give away the fact he was a homunculus. He is still able to move as fast or faster than anyone here.

Vs Scar

While Scar can decimate the Shield, he is more than dealt with by Cap way easier than Bradly. Scar could not really on his own best a very injured Bradely missing his Ultimate Eye. I am just not convince he last long at all against Cap who could decimate him with a single well place Shield strike or Grenade.

Just like Miles Scar should not have to worry about Cap as either Greedling or Bradley should pick him up before he gets to Scar. Scar can however use some ranged alchemy to make Cap's life more difficult. As for barely beating Bradley without his Ultimate Eye, you talk like that is a negative. Without his Ultimate Eye Bradley is still fast enough to deflect machinegun fire with a sword, cut a tank shell in half and dance through shattered glass as it flies through the air. Beating Bradley, even in the condition he was in is an impressive feat and by no means would it be an easy win for Cap. Scar has shown, like when he was fighting Major Armstrong, that he can notice small details in a fighter's style and exploit any faults. He's not as skilled as Cap, but he's skilled enough to hold his own if he had to which should not be the case.

Vs Greeling

another interesting match, Cap would have no real way to put Greeling down. That healing with Ultimate Shield is trumping almost everything Cap is bringing. The best Cap can do here is focuse Hawkeye or Miles on Greeling, and ignore him to take out Scar or match Bradley.

A well place Flash or Frag will further aid Cap to simply stun Greeling to get at a real viable target, issuing orders for Miles or Hawkeye to take him out.

I agree that there is really nothing that Cap can do to take down Greedling. I would also like to point out however that neither a frag, nor a flash grenade should really have hardly any effect on Greedling. He took the explosion from an RPG at point blank range and it didn't phase him, so a frag shouldn't do anything, and the sound from a flash-bang shouldn't do much either. The flash has the possibility to temporarily hinder his vision but that is minimally effective because he can use the his chi sensing to fight blinded just as well as he fights with sight.

Hawkeye

Hawkeye is not engaging anyone specifically. Not at all. His job is to lay down non stop fire, and try to spot a weakness to exploit for his trick arrows. As I said earlier, Hawkeye is a master tactician as well. not as good as Cap, but good enough to lead teams against major world threats and pull off impossible Black Ops missions.He was leader of the Ultimate Avengers for a time.

This whole scan sums up what i am saying. A Leader, spots weakness in just about anything, and thinks of ways to accomplish the impossible. In short he is easily the most dangerous guy here IMO. While a two on three seems to favor you in combat, the fact Hawkeye is laying down constant cover fire from his super senses and twitch factor is a major obstacle for your team.

This is the level of arrows flying at your team in a constant volley at a time. In this way Hawkeye will see, and target any foe that might gang up on Miles or Cap. In this way he can see what powers your team is using, and choosing the perfect counter via Trick Arrow.

Firstly it doesn't matter how fast he can fire arrows against someone who deflects machinegun fire. It doesn't matter against someone who dodged rapid fire bullets, and it doesn't matter against someone whose outer shell is so hard that any kind of arrow is just going to glance off the surface. Secondly I do not believe it was stated that Hawkeye had unlimited arrows in the OP, so we must assume he has a limited standard amount of arrows. Now I am well aware he probably carries a healthy supply of arrows. This would likely be somewhere around 30-50 arrows tops between considering both regular and trick variety. Laying down suppressive fire for his team is going to deplete this rather quickly. Once his projectiles are used up Hawkeye is forced into the uncomfortable position of having to engage my team up close.

Bradley is not being taken out in any easy way. The best counter Hawkeye through his own major strategic mind would be fire on Bradley, distracting him enough with fire till Miles or cap handle him with a attack to take him out. There is one Trick Arrow that can help alot though. The Flash Arrow.

Same scenario as before. Hawkeye tells his team to follow up after this next arrow shot, the team is prepared for it, and your team is blinded. We all know how well Bradley fairs against a blinding attack. Allows Cap or Miles to rush in for the KO. Works on the rest of your team that may happen be looking at it.

Greeling is not too tough to counter. There is two Arrows I can think of. One is the Taser arrow.

This arrow is useful in the fact that the electrical discharge from it would royally stun Greeling. He has no feats to suggest otherwise really. Another arrow useful is the explosive arrows.

I have two things to say about the Explosive arrows right off the bat. Firstly it appears that Iron man was not actually blasting Hulk, but instead created some sort of forcefield around his head to concentrate and contain the blast from the explosive arrows. This would mean that all of the energy from the explosion was concentrated in that tiny area causing much more devastating effects as we all know that explosions are deadlier in a confined space. This means two things. Firstly it means that those explosives probably actually have a very wide blast radius and would risk taking out your own team members as well as the members of my team you tried to hit. Secondly it means that when the blast isn't confined to such a small space and concentrated it will be less potent and do less damage to Greedling than it did to the Hulk in that situation. Also take into account it took 3 such arrows to do said damage. The second thing I have to say is that those arrows stuck into Hulk's flesh. This is not going to happen with the Ultimate Shield, the arrows are going to ricochet off his shield because of it's hardness and so he won't even have to take the brunt of the explosion.

As far as the Flash Arrow, it runs the risk of effecting your team too. If Hawkeye alerts his team what is going to happen his team is likely to tip off Bradley who has the Ultimate Eye and this gives him time to dodge outside the effective range of the blast or simply close his eyes to negate the blinding effects.

While Iron Man may have blasted the face as well, Iron man's best attacks never harmed Hulk in anyway before that, which is why he needed the Hulk Buster, and he laid down his best attacks already to no avail. Iron Man simply blew the arrows up with a moderate blast, meaning the Arrows did most the work to by pass Hulks insane durability. I see no reason for the Ultimate Shield to fair better. This will not put Greeling down, but leaves him distracted on major healing while Cap and Miles take out his team, or for Miles alone to quickly deal with him in that weaken state.

Then there is Scar. not much needs to be said here. He is having tough enough time dealing with Miles and Cap in his face without trying to dodge Hawkeye's super accurate arrows. Yes, accuracy Scar face before in Lt. Hawkeye, but seriously, Ultimate Hawkeye > Lt. Hawkeye.

Yes, dodging Lt. Hawkeye is nothing like dodging Hawkeye at all. Laying down as much fire power he is, its sure thing Scar will get messed up.

I never suggested that Lt. Hawkeye is better than Ult. Hawkeye. The point of that statement was merely to show that Scar did not just aim dodge a bunch of fodder, he actually bullet dodged two handguns of ammo from the best marksman in the show who is stated to never miss a shot. I agree that given enough time in the open Hawkeye is eventually going to tag Scar with a shot. That is why Scar is going to focus on creating cover for himself and the team. His primary goal once Hawkeye creates distance between himself and my team is going to be creating obstacles between us and Hawkeye to limit his ability to effectively provide supporting fire for his team.

A Flash arrow runs the risk of blinding your team as well as mine, which ultimately favors my team since Greedling has the best method of detection not relying on sight. However all of this is going to difficult for Hawkeye because of the obstacles Scar will have formed to obscure his view of the battlefield and block his sight angles and possible shot opportunities. You must also take into account that Flash Grenades are less effective out in the open than they are in confined spaces. Their zone of effect is only a 5 foot radius around the device. For an explosive arrow to be able to put down Greedling the explosive yield would be far too high to confidently use without fear of collateral damage catching your own teammates.

Overall if your team tries to use an explosive arrow, or flash arrow my team should be able to pick up on the fact they are backing off and realize what is happening. This happened in Scars's fight with Major Armstrong where they tried to distract him long enough to get a shot off with a rifle. The second his opponent pulled back he realized something was wrong and was able to immediately determine the source of danger and dodge more than one shot. Considering Bradley is faster, and his ultimate eye gives him a head start, and your guys will have to move farther than Major Armstrong did to get out of the effective range of such an arrow and I think it's highly possible and likely my team should suffer minimal damage. In the case of an explosive there is also the fact Bradley and Greedling can regenerate from being a charred corpse in seconds. Now you do admit that this should not take him down permanently, but will injure and disorient him leaving him open for Miles or Cap to take out. This disregards the fact that an explosion of that magnitude would be a huge danger to both Miles and Cap. You can't just use precision with the kind of explosion it would take to put down Greedling. The guy walked away from a point blank RPG blast, the runaway platform slamming into the bottom of the tunnel, and the tunnel collapsing on him without so much as a scratch.

The taser arrow should be minimally effective as I stated earlier with Mile's venom sting because the composition of Greed's ultimate shield is structurally diamond-like and diamond is extremely resistive to electricity. He is practically encased in one of the best insulators on the planet.

Summary:

Summary

in the end my team has the gear and powers to really lay into your team, and with the proven effective distract techniques, as well Hawkeye's insane accurate cover fire will lead the whole team to victory. All my characters have ways to deal with yours, and Greeling is really the hardest to put down, while my team can realistically keep your team off balance enough to make this a quick 3 on 1 scenario.

I believe that I have shown that a lot of the tools and powers you think are well-suited to take down my team are going to be far less efficient and practical in application than you originally thought. Hawkeye’s cover fire is held in check and negated by using existing cover as well as creating walls and other cover via alchemy. This means that Hawkeye will have a difficult time seeing my team, let alone getting a good angle on them and being able to get off support shots from afar. I’ve also shown that a lot of the tactics you want to use put your own team at danger, or alert my team prior to being employed. Your techniques of distraction will be minimally effective as I have pointed out, and realistically speaking I think the argument for Miles going down first is the most compelling, leaving my team up 3 v. 2. From there Scar and Greedling can keep Cap fully occupied while Bradley engages Hawkeye. Hawkeye is good, but he isn’t going to defeat Bradley 1 v. 1.

Again my team is opening up cover fire from the get go, and in so doing getting a good read of your characters powers and speed, which is crucial first hand knowledge here. After that the Genius of both Cap and Hawkeye with the very versatile powers of Miles is exploiting any possible weakness. Hawkeye cover fire is keeping your team off balance for sure, and cap and Miles will tear on through the team as I mention above.

This match up comes to my characters versatile abilities/gear with their great stats pulling the win.

Sounds like a decent argument, but everything is going to have to go perfectly for you to come out on top. Yes, you will gain knowledge about my team opening up, but my team will also gain knowledge from watching your team, and Bradley’s eye can pinpoint their weaknesses without him even having to consciously think about it. Hawkeye’s cover fire will be largely negated by cover, and neither cap nor Miles are going to tear through my team. My team has the abilities and skills to counter everything your team has suggested trying to use to stop them. 2 out of the 3 of my team have vast regenerative abilities that will allow them to take more damage than your team and keep on going. Add in the fact that even landing a hit on Bradley is going to be tough, and even harming Greedling is going to be even tougher, and your team simply will not take them majority. Yes, they are very intelligent, and very skilled with a nice power set, but they do not have the tools to consistently win here. They are capable of winning, but given a series of ten fights they cannot win the majority. My team has a great variety of different powers to bring to the table, they themselves are not tactically stupid by any measure, and they are all immensely skilled to boot. My team will win the strong majority here through the fact that Miles is vulnerable in this situation and likely gets taken out quickly because he will be caught off guard. His tendency to forget powers, make mistakes, and the fact his go to powers of invisibility and venom sting are countered by my team means that he stands little chance lasting against opponents as fast, skilled, and perfectly powered to take him out.

@sirfizzwhizz

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#27 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36316 posts) - - Show Bio

This is like watching my first WWF ladder match between Shawn Micheals and Razor Ramon. It's that intense feeling, that anything could happen.

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#28 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

Clash of Titans!

Please tag me for votes!

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#29 Posted by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

Clash of Titans!

Please tag me for votes!

But i'm not in this match....

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#30 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde:

Not a bad analysis, but you are missing one important point. Greedling can read the dragon’s pulse. This means that he is capable of detecting the flow of chi (life energy) in the environment around him allowing him a 360 degree ability much like Daredevil’s radar sense. He, as well as Lan Fan, demonstrated this ability when fighting Gluttony in the pitch black where it was so dark it was commented that the characters could not see their own hands in front of their faces. They were able to nimbly and deftly maneuver their way around in the dark and use precision attacks on Gluttony using this ability. Upon seeing Miles go invisible Greedling would immediately pick up on his chi via this technique allowing him to react to Miles, much to Miles’ surprise. As I will explain later there will also be an answer for Hawkeye’s arrows.

Actually that is a good point I forgot about in Ling. Still Scar would be affected, and Miles being invisible is not a major factor as his pther Spider Powers, nor be the first time it is countered. Miles other abilities like Sense, Webbing, and Sting more than make up for the Camo being countered by 2 out 3 members. Thanks to Miles own speed and Spider Sense, he will likely not be taken surprise either from Bradely or Greeling countering him in invisibility. Miles being Invisible does not show him as un cautious in the comics, quite the opposite.

You are absolutely correct in your evaluation of Miles not being the best fighter; I will certainly not disagree with you there. It has been stated multiple times in the comics that he even forgets that he has powers like his camouflage and venom sting, or at least forgets to use them in battle. It has also been shown that he believes his spider-sense is annoying, and that he certainly has not learned to use it to the best of his ability. Granted, he has faced and taken down some very strong opponents, and I’m not saying that Miles is terrible. However he has a track record of making mistakes, not utilizing his powers to the best of their ability, and generally leaning on his powers to come through in the end. He is not well trained, he is not particularly experienced with opponents on this level of skill, and he tends to be sloppy. I am not going to get into the claim that those villains could solo this whole group here because that is a whole different debate in and of itself, but in a lot of those cases he relied on luck, and powers that are more effective against those opponents than they will be against my team. Furthermore none of those opponents hold a candle to my team in terms of skill. They all rely on their physical stats and power output to defeat opponents. Is Miles outclassed by feats in physicals and powers? Certainly not. However he is greatly outclassed in fighting skill, tactical thinking, and experience.

Most of this true, but some things not accurate wholly. Yes your team is more skilled than Miles, and the super powerful villains that Miles face, but being train is only part of "skill". Miles is skilled in the fact he has beaten beings he has no buisness fighting. Its takes a degree of skill more than anything else to accomplish this. Miles cannot fight via Martial Arts, but he is smart enough to use the Environment, his powers, and stats to hit a foe. miles has never really fought super skilled oppnents anyway yet in his comics, so its hard to say how well he fair against beings of way lower stats level, but high skill. Miles has proven with weaker stats and less useful powers beaten beings that wipe the floor of the Ultimates though on several occasions, and that cannot be overlook on Miles part.

As for not using his powers that early or often, this is not wholly accurate either. Miles in the fights like Omega Red, Green Goblin, second match with Venom, Electro, Task Master, and even 616 Petter Parker Spiderman had Miles using very early and effectively his cloak, and Venom Sting. So its not accurate to say something like he never really remembers or uses his powers, because in many fights he does. Not that it matters with both Hawkeye and Cap guiding Miles anyway sine both are his superiors in the comics, use to giving orders in team efforts. So really this particular Argument is not a factor in this scenario.

No, being invisible does not make Mile’s spider-sense go away, but it makes him less likely to utilize it to the best of his ability. If he thinks that his opponent cannot see him, his guard is going to be naturally lowered. He’s a teenage kid, not a hardened combat veteran. This gives my team the advantage. We already know that he has disregarded, or looked at his spider-sense as a nuisance in situations in the past. Furthermore his spider-sense only gives him a notion that he is in immediate danger, it does not tell him where the danger is coming from. With opponents as fast as Bradley (who has struck so fast bullet-timers didn’t see him) and Greedling (who moved from one side of the courtyard to the other so fast he couldn't be seen in between) it is entirely possible that they could land a hit given the advantage of surprise. Peter was able to web his mask off before he could react, and Scorpion was able to grab Miles, so it’s certainly not outside the realm of possibility. Everyone here is fast enough to dance between bullets. If Miles is in the midst of trying to attack me it is going to be very difficult for him to suddenly change direction when he is caught off guard and avoid someone as fast as Bradley or Greedling, even more so Bradley since he’ll be able to predict where Miles is going to be. In the end it’s more likely that Miles can be taken off guard and tagged in this situation than it is that he can go unscathed given his history. Furthermore one connection from Bradley or Greedling is going to severely injure or kill Miles. Bradley can slice through solid stone and steel with his swords and Greedling’s claws are sharp enough to tear through steel with ease. I know Miles has a mild healing factor, but it’s not going to be enough to come back when either of them connect.

As said before this is not much of a factor. Miles has shown great caution in his Invisible state, much like how he did his best to tip toe past Giant Woman, granted she nailed him still, but he was also very weak from is Warmachine battle, and simply trying to get away. As for this argument of Miles is going to have a hard time to change direction or avoid attack in a invisible state, this is not a case at all. He reaches out to do the Venom Sting or throw a punch, your guy counters. So what? Miles avoids the counter attack like he would any other invisible or not. By this logic, cloak or not Miles is getting nailed. Not seeing that base on Miles speed feats above.

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Here he is in full danger from Mysterio, fighting him the whole time, but still accurately predicts a back attack when Miles was gawking at the 616 world he was pulled into.

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Here in the middle of a fire fight with Hydra, attacks from all sides, does the Spider Sense again warn Miles to a threat looming above him more so than all the threats around him at that moment.

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Here again it shows Miles sense going off to fond his dad that he was worried sick about, then again to the cops about to shoot him in a area Venom could still attack from.

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Kid dodges Warmachine bullets from Stark grade computer targeting tech, and did this while fighting another Warmachine.

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Then I can mention as well how Miles while Web slinging through a city, being attacked by tons of 616 Herbies with accuracy computers of 616 Mr Fantastic himself installed in them. yet Miles with limited space and movement options dodges all their attack just fine.

In short the Spider sense which is battle proven as seen with the Warmachines, and the Herbies example here show incredible speed, and use of Spider Sense in battle to avoid attacks like your mentions. Miles can easy dodge any counter IMO in his Invisible state.

No doubt, I never believed that such an attack would be the end of Clint. At best I expect that part of it may catch a glancing blow and injure him slightly due to it having an area of effect. At worst for me it gets Clint off balance and causes him aggravation. As for the cars I have no doubt he can make good use of them, and get of intermittent shots at my team. That said, everyone on my team is easily fast enough to dodge arrows. They are all fast enough to dodge bullets, and arrows travel significantly slower. Then we add in the fact that Scar’s primary job is to create cover with his alchemy, both for himself and my team. He can throw up some obstacles to obscure my team from Hawkeye and keep Hawkeye moving to try and find an angle he can attack from. Obviously your team can observe mine countering and glean information just as you suggest. There is really no point in hiding those abilities at this stage in the fight.

It is true that Arrow < Bullets. No doubt, however, I showed above the insane accuracy Hawkeye has. Then he can show feats like these too.

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Rogue has shown great bullet timing like reflexes naturally, and she gain increase agility, and speedy super umps from Toad. Hawkeye tags her with single arrow just fine.

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Here Hawkeye tags Black Widow just fine when she was actively avoiding him. She has surgery to grant her super human stats including speed and reflexes.

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I showed how Hawkeye with bullet react and accurately shoot down strings of webs which are fast as bullets.

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Here he tags just fine two Reed made beings, design to fight and kill. they are fast enough for Spider Woman to comment on their speed, and take her down. Hawkeye is able to put two in their head that they did not see coming or able to dodge.

I also showed Hawkeye tag a far away Ghost Rider hitting super high speeds with a in accurate RPG. Point is this. Hawkeye never misses as he likes to boast, not saying its true, just what he is credited for. even if Bradley can eaily cut down Arrows, and dodge them, it will be hell due to the many factors Clint has. Including insane precision, leading the target, and rapid firing tons of arrows in the span of a second. All this will make dodging a hassle, even if they are arrows, and if Hawkeye uses one good Flash Arrow, its a game changer in favor of Hawkeye.

As for making cover for Hawkeye, thats not that helpful for few reasons. One is Hawkeye will be jumping around for a better view easy. He has insane jumping feats, and moving speed feats I showed above. Another is explosive Arrows he carries will reduce it to rubble. Third reason is Scar is under threat of Cap and Miles. Cap who is tossing Grenades, and shooting on the charge, and Miles who is invisible to Scar, using web attacks. I do not realistically see Scar having time for this without getting nailed first.

Miles

As I have already explained I believe it’s more likely that Miles does not fully dodge Bradley’s attack. It’s possible he can dodge it, but not likely taking all factors into account. His guard will be lower being invisible; he won’t expect Bradley to take a swing at him at exactly the right time. The great thing about Bradley is that he can predict Mile’s attack and time it perfectly to catch Miles off guard. Miles will have to do everything absolutely perfectly to come away without being hit in this situation. Bradley is fast enough to tag bullet-timers and move so fast they can’t see him without the use of his Ultimate Eye. With it I don’t really see Miles having a chance. He will have to detect it, actually listen to his spider-sense, figure out where the danger is coming from since his spider-sense just gives a general warning of danger, and then move to avoid the strike. Against someone as fast and precise as Bradley the odds are stacked heavily against him. Bradley also has the reach advantage because of his swords. Bradley clearly is way out of Miles league in skill and just has the perfect set of abilities and training to take him down in this situation.

Assuming that Miles makes it that long it is entirely possible that he may employ web spam, but I hardly think it would be very effective against Bradley. Bradley is far faster than Clint is and Clint was able as you showed to avoid Spider-Man’s web spam. Given all of his abilities I don’t think it should be a problem at all for Bradley. You can hardly compare Bradley to random shield agents in reaction time, speed, or ability to avoid attacks. Also, if it came down to it I see no reason that Bradley couldn’t easily slice through the webbing, especially given he could detect its weakest points. It seems like a long shot for that tactic to work in my opinion.

I agree with some of this. Bradley would likely end Miles in a one on one. However there is several factors here that allow Miles a good chance at a win.

One being the fact Miles has shown the Spider Sense as more than general warning, it helps even in the middle of a fight or attacks to avoid impossible attacks. I showed the feats in the early part of this counter. Miles Spider Sense has shown several feats in accuracy of predicting a specific threat to him in a area of many threats. it should warn him just fine to avoid the blatant counter by Bradley. The speed feats of Miles should more than show he can likely dodge for a short while as well.

Two Miles has the assistance of the Flash Arrow from Clint, and Flash Bang from Steve. Both being the genius fighters they are can pop one off to help Miles. Both show a interest in the Kids safety in character as well. Meaning they will help.

Three Cap and Hawkeye can, and will likely tell Miles what to do to save himself, in this case either jump over Bradley, something Miles can do easy, or Web Spam him. Once the Web Spam is pulled off, that is that. It is no way the same as Hawkeye dodging Web Balls, its spread out webbing over a area. Miles real issue is surviving the initial counter from Bradley, which by feats I think he can more than do.

There is several options here, and thanks to the inner team work this team has, as well both Caps and Hawkeye's tactical minds, I see Miles having a good chance here.

Vs Scar

This is mostly true, but as I have explained the members of my team are broken down into roles. There is no situation where Scar should have to face Miles because Greedling and Bradley are capable of detecting him and will engage him before he can get to Scar.

Makes sense to me. though with a simple Web Sling, or super jump, and Miles is all over Scar should he chose that option.

Vs Greeling

Unfortunately for you what you think is a clever way around Greedling’s durability is not nearly as effective as you believe. Mile’s venom sting is a bio-electric attack. Very fortunately for my team Greedling’s Ultimate Shield utilizes his ability to alter the carbon in his body into a diamond-like structure granting him nigh invulnerability. Here is where it gets interesting. Diamond is an excellent electrical insulator, and one of the most electrically resistant materials on Earth. Pure diamond that is 100% carbon has an electrical resistance greater than insulators used in most power plants and power lines, such as glass, ceramics, plastics, and rubber. This means that your bio-electric attacks will not conduct through his shield. Now, I am not insinuating that the venom sting will not affect Greedling at all; I am merely saying that it will take multiple strikes to take him down. It took 4 full strength venom stings to take Venom down, and Venom has demonstrated a weakness to electrical based attacks. Greedling has a shield that is composed of a substance that greatly resists such attacks so I think it’s fair to say that it should take more than 4 full powered venom sting strikes to take down Greedling. As far as web incapacitation it’s possible he could tag Greedling, but Greedling is not slow and he has claws easily capable of cutting through the webbing. Greedling is fast enough to block Bradley’s blows, though not fast enough to hardly ever gain the upper hand, quick and agile enough to dodge Pride’s shadows, and has moved fast enough to save Fu from Bradley’s sword and moved across the courtyard so fast that he couldn’t be seen in between.

However just as with Bradley Greedling has a way of detecting invisible Miles. This means that once again he has the opportunity to catch Miles off guard. Greedling is far from stupid either, as a Prince Ling was trained in battle tactics and strategy and has shown to be very capable of implementing his own strategies against opponents such as always moving to get in Bradley’s blind spot when he’s wearing his eye patch. He also gets the opportunity to surprise Miles if Miles tries to use a venom sting on him. Miles will be expecting Greedling to go down, so when he doesn’t this gives another tactical opportunity for Greedling to land a surprise blow that will do serious damage to Miles, perhaps even kill him.

I think your counter is really well thought out if not for one major problem. The Misconception of you, and many people, thinking the Venom Sting is bio electricity. Its never stated as such, and by feats is not.

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If its electrical, then why does it travel through Legos?

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If its Electrical, then how does it travel through 616 Peter's electricity proof webbing?

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If its electrical, then how does Electro of all people is affected by it, when Electro is powered up by electricity sources?

Again there is no statements of it being able Bio Electricity in nature, as it is there is no statements what it is in the comics themselves. I see no reason for the Venom Sting not to by pass the Ultimate Shield in one shot.

Captain America

Vs Bradley

I Agreed wholeheartedly that these two are a great match-up with each having certain advantages. However I think that the advantages granted by the grenades/flash-bangs will be minimal. Both grenades and flash-bangs exist in FMA, and Bradley has been trained since childhood in military tactics and weaponry. He understands fully how they work and what they do. Furthermore his ability to predict his opponent’s moves and the trajectories of objects means that he will undoubtedly be able to counter such measures. If the grenade throw is anywhere near him in the air he can simply cut the grenade in half before it explodes, or he can avoid it altogether while warning his team before the grenade even leaves Cap’s hand. Scar can shield with alchemy, and they aren’t going to scratch Greedling. Frag grenades are also impossible to use once Miles or Cap get into close quarters fighting.

I agree Cap’s super strength is impressive, but I can’t see him getting a solid hit on Bradley with his Ultimate Eye. Bradley is already faster in combat than Cap by feats, and then he has the ability to predict all of Cap’s moves before they even happen. If Ultimate Nuke could give Ultimate Cap hell, Bradley can too. Cap’s healing shouldn’t be a factor in this fight. The only thing he can heal from fast enough to make a difference are knife wounds. Bullet wounds and greater were stated as taking over an hour to heal. bradley is one of the few street level characters I can see overwhelming Steve with speed, after all he had trouble with Ultimate nuke, and Ultimate Nuke is nowhere on Bradley's level on reflex and speed feats.

Yes there are limits to the Ultimate Eye. His aging body cannot actually keep up with the speed ogf the calculation and predictions of the Eye, BUT this doesn’t matter here because even though he can’t implement the predictions as fast as the eye can make them, he still is fast enough to do all the things he has done, most of the time not even using the eye at all because he didn’t want to give away the fact he was a homunculus. He is still able to move as fast or faster than anyone here.

Ultimate Nuke for all intents and purpass, is a bad example. The fact is Cap and Nukes are equals in stats, tactical ability, and skills. The biggest difference between them in fights was who wanted to win more. Let me addressed this with all four issues here.

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Issue 1: Cap shows he will no longer gives a **** about his missions. This is the master of Black Ops of WW2. He shows himself slipping which is noticed and commented on. Add to this mind set, he was ambushed by nuke from the get go. Cap then loses.

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Issue 2; We see more of Cap having bad dreams all about the Current America he lives in. We seen this play out through all the Ultimate comics since Cap was defrosted! America is not at all what is was in the 40s. And Cap always hated that. This affected his mind set.

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Issue 3 and 4: Here Cap was resign to death, until he perceives what he calls over, and over again what he saw as a Miracle from God. This spurs him to fight truly with all he has in one last go.

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Issue 3: Add to this as more proof is the fact Cap was tortured for several weeks, had massive amounts of blood drain, and yet in this weaken state end up beating Nuke for all the advantages he had in the first match.

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Issue 4: Cap here talks it out with Clint on what went down. He shows us that he is no longer unsure of his purpose in this NEW AMERICA and re finds his deep faith in God again.

In the end the Nuke fight is a very bad example. As for the grenades, its true they become less useful in a clump fight, but there are still super useful as Cap aim and ability to "chuck" them over obstacles to gain attack advantage on foes, who may or may not even notice them. Also Ultimate Wolverine by speed feats is on par with Bradley, yet Cap timed a frag on his claws. If Cap can land a accurate Grenade on the super fast Wolverine claws, I see no reason for anyone on the other team to fair better. Cutting a Grenade in half is a bad Idea as well. Its going to set it off. The healing factor is like wise still helpful as the above scan of Caps torture shows. it allows him to continue fighting on no matter what. It really helps him, and limits the over all damage of your teams attacks, minus Scar's arm. So while he maybe the fastest physically, Cap still has the reaction feats and most importantly, the Shield to block or defend from most Bradley's attacks.

Vs Scar

Just like Miles Scar should not have to worry about Cap as either Greedling or Bradley should pick him up before he gets to Scar. Scar can however use some ranged alchemy to make Cap's life more difficult. As for barely beating Bradley without his Ultimate Eye, you talk like that is a negative. Without his Ultimate Eye Bradley is still fast enough to deflect machinegun fire with a sword, cut a tank shell in half and dance through shattered glass as it flies through the air. Beating Bradley, even in the condition he was in is an impressive feat and by no means would it be an easy win for Cap. Scar has shown, like when he was fighting Major Armstrong, that he can notice small details in a fighter's style and exploit any faults. He's not as skilled as Cap, but he's skilled enough to hold his own if he had to which should not be the case.

Its impressive Scar beat Bradely still given the conditions, but he is clearly inferior when Bradely was very much injured, missing the Eye, and had Flash Bang interference to help Scar. Thats all. Cap meanwhile has on his own feats that are pretty much superior in every way to what Scar accomplish on his own. Cap IMO can take Scar out easy with a casual Frag Grenade toss into is are, or Flash Bang. I can see the Shield ending Scar as well. I had yet to bring up Ultimate Cap's shield feats and skill.

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Cap's ability to bounce his shield off multiple targets and back to him in the middle of a hand to hand fight is reason enough to see Scar being in serious trouble should Cap be facing say Greedling. Cap has tons of cars and other obstacles to bounce the shield off. This feat is also useful to help Miles facing a possible Bradley scenario. Allowing Cap to throw the Shield to nail Bradley int he head. His Ultimate Eye is only useful for what it sees.

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Assemble here has the powers of Hulk, Thor, and Giant Man. This includes durability as Ice Man's powerful attacks had no effect, and Juggernaut empowered Rogue had no chance. Cap was fully able to throw his Shield fast enough to decap this durable foe. I say fast enough, because that is what's needed to accomplish this feat. Speed. We know the Shields not super sharp, because it bounces of wood, but with enough speed, it can slice like a razor.

A attack from behind would end Bradley. Its too fast even for him to avoid, and since Cap early on knows Bradley's speed, he could whip this bad boy for a sure decap from behind should Cap be facing Greedling, and Miles being attacked by Bradley.

Vs Greeling

I agree that there is really nothing that Cap can do to take down Greedling. I would also like to point out however that neither a frag, nor a flash grenade should really have hardly any effect on Greedling. He took the explosion from an RPG at point blank range and it didn't phase him, so a frag shouldn't do anything, and the sound from a flash-bang shouldn't do much either. The flash has the possibility to temporarily hinder his vision but that is minimally effective because he can use the his chi sensing to fight blinded just as well as he fights with sight.

All good points, the idea at best is to distract him for Hawkeye and Miles. However I wonder now if the Ultimate Shield would do against physical force. I been thinking about it, and I recall nothing of his durability holding up against super strength blows. Not just few tons of force, but force enough to harm 30+ ton foes.

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1) Cap KOes Juggernaut with a Shield bash to the head.

2) Cap kicks Juggernaut through a wall and into a KO.

3) Cap with just his shield and fist was fully able to take out Warmachine. Taking its arm off too. Same Warmachine who tanked blows that caused Earth Quakes with minimal damage.

4) Took Hulk down with a few moves for a short duration.

5) Breaks Giant Man's jaw with a kick.

6) Takes down multiple SHIELD agents in super suits, granting them incredible strength. Cap was pumped full of sedatives when he did this too, weakening him.

All in all Greedling tank a RPG no problem, but so has many of the above characters that Cap put down with his striking abilities from Kicks or with Shield. So I have to ask, what feats Greedling has to say Cap cannot possibly KO or even tax Greedling? With his Shield he manage to by pass the durability of Assemble, and Warmachine. cutting them up in fact. I think he should very well be able to do the same to Greedling.

Hawkeye

Firstly it doesn't matter how fast he can fire arrows against someone who deflects machinegun fire. It doesn't matter against someone who dodged rapid fire bullets, and it doesn't matter against someone whose outer shell is so hard that any kind of arrow is just going to glance off the surface. Secondly I do not believe it was stated that Hawkeye had unlimited arrows in the OP, so we must assume he has a limited standard amount of arrows. Now I am well aware he probably carries a healthy supply of arrows. This would likely be somewhere around 30-50 arrows tops between considering both regular and trick variety. Laying down suppressive fire for his team is going to deplete this rather quickly. Once his projectiles are used up Hawkeye is forced into the uncomfortable position of having to engage my team up close.

Yes it does matter, as the Arrows is a steady flow of distractions, and Hawkeye' skills of tagging bullet timers or bullet time objects is well shown. Hawkeye can and does easily lead targets. Its all a factor, none of your guys is close to Quicksilver speeds which is needed to make Hawkeye arrows a non factor. As for unlimited arrows, no he has a limit, and in the space of a minuet this battle will be over. Arrrows is not all Hawkeye has anyway as standard gear. Its just one option I highlighted for Hawkeye.

Lets say in the battle your characters counter the arrows to the point Hawkeye cannot tag them, and sees this. Time to hit the SHIELD issue guns then.

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Lots of random scans with one thing in common, Hawkeye packs serious fire power. Should the Arrows alone fail on people like say Bradley, he can easily switch it up to his SHIELD issue machine gun. I will not use the custom Crossbow/Guns becuase he has not used them in awhile, but still in current material uses SHIELD made sub machine guns or hand guns. Now the Gun has Mach 2 projectile speed, with the best Marksmen on the planet. Thats 2400 FpS vs 400 FPS. That is a huge gap in speed, and your character like Bradely is simply not dodging them that well. Hawkeye with Arrows as shown above tag impossible fast targets, now he has a machine gun.

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I really see no reason for someone with Hawkeye's feats of tagging Bullet timers with arrows failing to do better with 5 times faster bullets.

I have two things to say about the Explosive arrows right off the bat. Firstly it appears that Iron man was not actually blasting Hulk, but instead created some sort of forcefield around his head to concentrate and contain the blast from the explosive arrows. This would mean that all of the energy from the explosion was concentrated in that tiny area causing much more devastating effects as we all know that explosions are deadlier in a confined space. This means two things. Firstly it means that those explosives probably actually have a very wide blast radius and would risk taking out your own team members as well as the members of my team you tried to hit. Secondly it means that when the blast isn't confined to such a small space and concentrated it will be less potent and do less damage to Greedling than it did to the Hulk in that situation. Also take into account it took 3 such arrows to do said damage. The second thing I have to say is that those arrows stuck into Hulk's flesh. This is not going to happen with the Ultimate Shield, the arrows are going to ricochet off his shield because of it's hardness and so he won't even have to take the brunt of the explosion.

As far as the Flash Arrow, it runs the risk of effecting your team too. If Hawkeye alerts his team what is going to happen his team is likely to tip off Bradley who has the Ultimate Eye and this gives him time to dodge outside the effective range of the blast or simply close his eyes to negate the blinding effects.

Here is the problem, your basing all this on nothing. First off, to even attempt to shoot down my feat, I like to see Proof of a statement or something that it is in fact a Force Field, and not one of the many drawn blasts IM has shown. Second I need proof that the arrows being used are wide explosive. Second, even if we assume, and thats all it is, baseless assumption, if we assume all this then that still means these arrows in a confine space damage Hulk more than a mega ton nuclear bomb had. Something Hulk tank and shown to tank with no real damage to him. That would still mean the confine blast is grater than the building busting blasts of Iron Man. All still pretty insane high. However I really like to see proof of your assumptions. Mine are pretty solid in base.

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Is not the first time Hawkeye used Explosive arrows that had no wide range blast.

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Here Hawkeye shows the power of a nuclear yield in a 20 meter radius.

All these prove more than anything to me his arrows can pack alot of punch in a small radius, period. Enough to blow apart Hulk's face. I see no reason for it to be assumed otherwise.

The Flash Arrow seems to have a radius of effect, after all Captain America was not blinded when Thor was. Its no different than seeing a Flash Bang from a distance compared to the most effective radius. Regardless its something that will work for sure on Greedling or Scar. I think it will work fine on Bradely if he is indeed "coming after" Hawkeye. If that is the case, Hawkeye uses it immediately, and then pumps Bradly full of those arrows at super speed.

I never suggested that Lt. Hawkeye is better than Ult. Hawkeye. The point of that statement was merely to show that Scar did not just aim dodge a bunch of fodder, he actually bullet dodged two handguns of ammo from the best marksman in the show who is stated to never miss a shot. I agree that given enough time in the open Hawkeye is eventually going to tag Scar with a shot. That is why Scar is going to focus on creating cover for himself and the team. His primary goal once Hawkeye creates distance between himself and my team is going to be creating obstacles between us and Hawkeye to limit his ability to effectively provide supporting fire for his team.

Scar can create cover, and that is less time focusing on dealing with Cap or Miles coming at him in the mix.

A Flash arrow runs the risk of blinding your team as well as mine, which ultimately favors my team since Greedling has the best method of detection not relying on sight. However all of this is going to difficult for Hawkeye because of the obstacles Scar will have formed to obscure his view of the battlefield and block his sight angles and possible shot opportunities. You must also take into account that Flash Grenades are less effective out in the open than they are in confined spaces. Their zone of effect is only a 5 foot radius around the device. For an explosive arrow to be able to put down Greedling the explosive yield would be far too high to confidently use without fear of collateral damage catching your own teammates.

As I stated above, it can be used safely with some warning, and the Arrow will still distract Greedling even if he can adapt to it in a short time by using his Pulse method. Your right again about radius, which is why i think Cap and Hawkeye can use the Flash Bang like attacks without hitting themselves thanks to the accuracy feats I showed both Cap, and Hawkeye have with their respective gear.

Overall if your team tries to use an explosive arrow, or flash arrow my team should be able to pick up on the fact they are backing off and realize what is happening. This happened in Scars's fight with Major Armstrong where they tried to distract him long enough to get a shot off with a rifle. The second his opponent pulled back he realized something was wrong and was able to immediately determine the source of danger and dodge more than one shot. Considering Bradley is faster, and his ultimate eye gives him a head start, and your guys will have to move farther than Major Armstrong did to get out of the effective range of such an arrow and I think it's highly possible and likely my team should suffer minimal damage. In the case of an explosive there is also the fact Bradley and Greedling can regenerate from being a charred corpse in seconds. Now you do admit that this should not take him down permanently, but will injure and disorient him leaving him open for Miles or Cap to take out. This disregards the fact that an explosion of that magnitude would be a huge danger to both Miles and Cap. You can't just use precision with the kind of explosion it would take to put down Greedling. The guy walked away from a point blank RPG blast, the runaway platform slamming into the bottom of the tunnel, and the tunnel collapsing on him without so much as a scratch.

I never seen Wrath having Regen, can I see that? I remember he had a human like body in the fact injuries are not healed easy at all. Greedling can heal easy, but that still leaves Miles two viable instant win ways to deal with Greedling while he is is hindered re healing in the short time it happens.Its all to buy time. Name of the game. As for the use of Explosive arrows, I already showed with two other Explosion arrows the very limited AOE they have. no reason to think they will hurt my team at all. Thats been discussed all above.

The taser arrow should be minimally effective as I stated earlier with Mile's venom sting because the composition of Greed's ultimate shield is structurally diamond-like and diamond is extremely resistive to electricity. He is practically encased in one of the best insulators on the planet.

This is a fair point. While the Venom Sting will work fine, this means the Taser arrow is only good for Bradley and Scar. Should Hawkeye decide to use that on them.

Summary:

Summary

I believe that I have shown that a lot of the tools and powers you think are well-suited to take down my team are going to be far less efficient and practical in application than you originally thought. Hawkeye’s cover fire is held in check and negated by using existing cover as well as creating walls and other cover via alchemy. This means that Hawkeye will have a difficult time seeing my team, let alone getting a good angle on them and being able to get off support shots from afar. I’ve also shown that a lot of the tactics you want to use put your own team at danger, or alert my team prior to being employed. Your techniques of distraction will be minimally effective as I have pointed out, and realistically speaking I think the argument for Miles going down first is the most compelling, leaving my team up 3 v. 2. From there Scar and Greedling can keep Cap fully occupied while Bradley engages Hawkeye. Hawkeye is good, but he isn’t going to defeat Bradley 1 v. 1.

As I showed, most of my tools will work fine. Explosive Arrows, Flash bangs, Frag Grenades, Bullets, Shield, Webbing, and Venom Sting are still game changers. The Taser Arrow is only useful on two of the three enemies, that changed, and Cloak of Miles is reduced to only working on Scar. Fair points on that, but the rest works just fine. Then their is the raw strength stats of Miles and Cap anyway in this battle to put down Scar or Bradley.

Hawkeye can easily jump to a higher position to see, or fire while airborne like he has before. Creating some cover is not changing this.

Honestly I feel Miles is as viable to stay alive than Cap or Hawkeye because both Cap and Hawkeye in character look out for Miles, and Miles has the feats to show he can hold his own against anyone minus Bradley, and even then for a time. Meanwhile I feel so far Scar is the major weak link for your team. He has neither the speed of Bradley, or the durability of Greedling to simply hang in there.

Sounds like a decent argument, but everything is going to have to go perfectly for you to come out on top. Yes, you will gain knowledge about my team opening up, but my team will also gain knowledge from watching your team, and Bradley’s eye can pinpoint their weaknesses without him even having to consciously think about it. Hawkeye’s cover fire will be largely negated by cover, and neither cap nor Miles are going to tear through my team. My team has the abilities and skills to counter everything your team has suggested trying to use to stop them. 2 out of the 3 of my team have vast regenerative abilities that will allow them to take more damage than your team and keep on going. Add in the fact that even landing a hit on Bradley is going to be tough, and even harming Greedling is going to be even tougher, and your team simply will not take them majority. Yes, they are very intelligent, and very skilled with a nice power set, but they do not have the tools to consistently win here. They are capable of winning, but given a series of ten fights they cannot win the majority. My team has a great variety of different powers to bring to the table, they themselves are not tactically stupid by any measure, and they are all immensely skilled to boot. My team will win the strong majority here through the fact that Miles is vulnerable in this situation and likely gets taken out quickly because he will be caught off guard. His tendency to forget powers, make mistakes, and the fact his go to powers of invisibility and venom sting are countered by my team means that he stands little chance lasting against opponents as fast, skilled, and perfectly powered to take him out.

I feel the match is a close one, but due to the counter arguments above, I feel the power sets, and gear still allow them to win. Imo Scar will go down first, then Bradely. The longest part of the battle is dealing with Greedling if Miles cannot for any reason, but if miles lives long enough, Greedling goes down alot faster.

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#34 Edited by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

Miles

Actually that is a good point I forgot about in Ling. Still Scar would be affected, and Miles being invisible is not a major factor as his pther Spider Powers, nor be the first time it is countered. Miles other abilities like Sense, Webbing, and Sting more than make up for the Camo being countered by 2 out 3 members. Thanks to Miles own speed and Spider Sense, he will likely not be taken surprise either from Bradely or Greeling countering him in invisibility. Miles being Invisible does not show him as un cautious in the comics, quite the opposite.

Miles’ speed and spider-sense have not saved him from having his mask webbed off by Spider-Man, or being grabbed by Scorpion, or being snagged by Venom, or being kicked by Batroc and Prowler, tagged by Rhino, and so on. Point being that he is far from untouchable, and it’s certainly not unlikely he could be tagged by Bradley or Greedling. No one he has faced has demonstrated the combination of speed and skill that my team possesses.

You said that Miles was “Leading the frontal attack with captain America”, you then describe Cap’s strategy as charging in “Cap will like wise charge in”. From your own words the description of what is happening is Miles charging headlong into the battle. That does not sound like him being cautious to me. This is what he has been commanded to do by Ultimate Captain America, so regardless of what his normal individual strategy is in combat he is “charging in” in this situation. So he’s charging in, he’s invisible so he’s confident he can get a hit on the enemy without them noticing him, and BAM they suddenly make a move. Considering Giant Woman was able to grab him when he was invisible and actively trying to be careful Bradley and Greedling should once again have little trouble doing so considering they are faster and more skilled, and he is being less careful in this situation.

How does miles dodge an attack this fast at point blank range when he isn't expecting it? He's been tagged by far slower people.

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Most of this true, but some things not accurate wholly. Yes your team is more skilled than Miles, and the super powerful villains that Miles face, but being train is only part of "skill". Miles is skilled in the fact he has beaten beings he has no buisness fighting. Its takes a degree of skill more than anything else to accomplish this. Miles cannot fight via Martial Arts, but he is smart enough to use the Environment, his powers, and stats to hit a foe. miles has never really fought super skilled oppnents anyway yet in his comics, so its hard to say how well he fair against beings of way lower stats level, but high skill. Miles has proven with weaker stats and less useful powers beaten beings that wipe the floor of the Ultimates though on several occasions, and that cannot be overlook on Miles part.

Miles defeats 95% of these “beings he has no business fighting” through the plot device known as his venom sting. That isn’t skill, that is having a hero shield, invisibility, and insta-KO ability. Yes, being trained is not the entirety of skill; the other part is experience and the ability to implement what you have trained in a fight. Greedling and Bradley are both vastly more skilled than Miles by any way you wish to measure skill. Using the environment, powers, and stats to his advantage is not something exclusive to Miles. Greedling and Bradley have both demonstrated this ability. They have also defeated opponents like Edward and Alphonse Elric, Roy Mustang, and Scar who have also demonstrated these abilities.

Greedling and Bradley are way lower in terms of strength yes, but their other stats are not significantly lower than Mile’s. They are both just as fast as Miles, both have superhuman agility, both have healing factors superior to his, Bradley is slightly less durable whereas Greed is significantly more durable, and stamina should be a draw. I don’t know where the claim Miles has a way higher stat level comes from. Bradley and Greedling are slightly lower than him in overall stats, but significantly more skilled and experienced. Once again strength is his only real major advantage in stats and it’s pretty useless in this fight. As you can see below both Greedling and Bradley can move so fast people capable of reacting to bullets and moving faster than can be seen themselves couldn't properly react.

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Don’t make me laugh “with weaker stats and less useful powers”, what exactly is more useful than being able to turn invisible to most opponents and KO most opponents with a touch? Once again without that one power he would have lost the majority of fights he’s been in.

As for not using his powers that early or often, this is not wholly accurate either. Miles in the fights like Omega Red, Green Goblin, second match with Venom, Electro, Task Master, and even 616 Petter Parker Spiderman had Miles using very early and effectively his cloak, and Venom Sting. So its not accurate to say something like he never really remembers or uses his powers, because in many fights he does. Not that it matters with both Hawkeye and Cap guiding Miles anyway sine both are his superiors in the comics, use to giving orders in team efforts. So really this particular Argument is not a factor in this scenario.

I never claimed that he “never” remembers. I said it has been stated more than once on panel that he does forget which is absolutely true. My point in saying that wasn’t even to say that he won’t use invisibility or venom sting here. My point was to show that he’s not even close to my team in terms of tactical fighting ability and awareness. Those are not mistakes anyone on my team would make. As for Cap and Hawkeye giving him orders I have no problem with that, but in a fight they can’t dictate everything he will be doing. A lot of his fighting has to be his own, he couldn’t even react in time if he was waiting for Cap or Hawkeye to give him a play by play. Besides they will have their own hands full.

As said before this is not much of a factor. Miles has shown great caution in his Invisible state, much like how he did his best to tip toe past Giant Woman, granted she nailed him still, but he was also very weak from is Warmachine battle, and simply trying to get away.

I already addressed this. If he was being cautious and still got grabbed by someone slower and less skilled than either of my characters he will have little chance in this situation.

As for this argument of Miles is going to have a hard time to change direction or avoid attack in a invisible state, this is not a case at all. He reaches out to do the Venom Sting or throw a punch, your guy counters. So what? Miles avoids the counter attack like he would any other invisible or not. By this logic, cloak or not Miles is getting nailed. Not seeing that base on Miles speed feats above.

Once again Miles has been consistently tagged by characters slower and less skilled than Bradley or Greedling. Bradley is fast enough to land multiple hits so fast it doesn’t look like he moved at all, and furthermore move so fast a bullet-timer couldn’t tell he moved. He has blitzed Lan Fan (who moves so fast it almost appears she’s teleporting and is another bullet-timer) from the street below, and overwhelmed Fu (who dodged machinegun fire in a narrow corridor) with his speed. Bradley has consistently been able to overwhelm bullet-timers with his speed, even when not using his Ultimate Eye. As for Greedling, he’s fast enough to block and dodge Bradley’s attacks throughout multiple fights, something pretty no one else in the show has been able to do. He was able to dodge and block Pride’s shadow attacks, and was fast enough to save Fu from Bradley’s blade and cross the entire courtyard so fast it almost appeared he teleported. As Ling he was also able to fight Bradley with Lan Fan over his shoulder, and he was beating Envy handily dodging all his attacks and cutting off his limbs.

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Here he is in full danger from Mysterio, fighting him the whole time, but still accurately predicts a back attack when Miles was gawking at the 616 world he was pulled into.

He was looking forward and he knew what direction Mysterio was coming from beforehand. Add in the fact that Mysterio isn’t that fast and this feat simply isn’t as impressive as you make it out to be. It should have no bearing on this fight.

Here in the middle of a fire fight with Hydra, attacks from all sides, does the Spider Sense again warn Miles to a threat looming above him more so than all the threats around him at that moment.

Once again you seem to like to embellish what is actually happening on the page. During that time there were no attacks coming at him from all sides. There was only one threat of “immediate danger” and that is the guy who the spider-sense detected. Not that it was that impressive he was already standing over Miles when the spider-sense went off. The Spider-sense, in the words of Bendis himself only detects immediate danger, which is why it detected the guy standing over him and not the fight going on elsewhere. The only threat to him that appears in that scan is the one it detected.

Here again it shows Miles sense going off to fond his dad that he was worried sick about, then again to the cops about to shoot him in a area Venom could still attack from.

Why is part of the scan cropped out? I’d like to see the whole thing please.

Kid dodges Warmachine bullets from Stark grade computer targeting tech, and did this while fighting another Warmachine.

He was riding on the one War Machine’s back, got a Spider-sense feeling and jumped off. Once again I can’t feel too impressed, he’s a bullet-timer he should be able to do this against bullets.

Then I can mention as well how Miles while Web slinging through a city, being attacked by tons of 616 Herbies with accuracy computers of 616 Mr Fantastic himself installed in them. yet Miles with limited space and movement options dodges all their attack just fine.

Limited space? He was in the open air, how is that limited space? That being said I am fairly impressed by this scan. However as we all know dodging projectiles doesn’t equate with dodging melee attacks.

In short the Spider sense which is battle proven as seen with the Warmachines, and the Herbies example here show incredible speed, and use of Spider Sense in battle to avoid attacks like your mentions. Miles can easy dodge any counter IMO in his Invisible state.

In comics and anime being able to dodge projectile attacks does not translate directly to dodging melee attacks. This is a basic principle of fictional debates. For example Batman can punch bullets, but gets tagged by people who aren’t even peak human at times. There are countless other examples I won’t waste our time going into since I am sure you are familiar with the principle. Besides Bendis himself has stated that the spider-sense only gives a warning that there is a general danger, it does not tell him which direction the danger is coming from.

“I did pretty good with it in "Ultimate Spider-Man," but sometimes the spider-sense is misused. In some comics I've seen it used as a metal detector, or all kinds of stuff. I'm going to try to make sure it only goes off when he's in immediate danger and that it only gives him a second's head start. Plus with that second you've got to know where the danger is coming from. That buzz could make you turn around and get hit in the face.” – Brian Michael Bendis

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=34654

Hawkeye Side Discussion

It is true that Arrow < Bullets. No doubt, however, I showed above the insane accuracy Hawkeye has. Then he can show feats like these too.

Rogue has shown great bullet timing like reflexes naturally, and she gain increase agility, and speedy super umps from Toad. Hawkeye tags her with single arrow just fine.

Here Hawkeye tags Black Widow just fine when she was actively avoiding him. She has surgery to grant her super human stats including speed and reflexes.

I showed how Hawkeye with bullet react and accurately shoot down strings of webs which are fast as bullets.

I’ve heard this claim that the webbing is as fast as bullets, but I have never seen a single shred of evidence to support this claim. Could you please provide some proof of this webbing being as fast as bullets claim?

Rogue wasn’t looking back so she couldn’t react to his arrow, so tell me why her having bullet-dodging feats matters here? She can’t dodge when she’s running away completely oblivious to the projectile coming at her. This doesn’t prove that he can hit bullet-timers who are actually actively trying to dodge his projectiles.

Did you leave out the part where Widow was in a hospital bed and injured with possible brain damage when Hawkeye caught her by surprise and shot her? She certainly wasn’t at 100%. Add in the fact she had her eyes closed when the second shot comes in. What your argument suggested ignored the context of the situation.

Even if the webs are as fast as bullets (which I am waiting for proof to support) he didn’t shoot the webs in motion (the front part that is actually potentially moving that fast), he shot the part of the web trailing from it which isn’t nearly as impressive considering it’s not really moving.

The idea of being able to consistently hit someone who can react faster than your projectile is plain logically wrong. If someone can dodge a bullet, or arrow it does not matter how accurate the shooter is. Even with perfect aim they should not be able to tag someone who has bullet-dodging reflexes. The dodger’s reflexes are the same, and the projectile’s speed is the same so no matter how accurate you are the dodger should be able to move out of the projectile’s path in time to not get hit. Now there is the possibility of leading a target, but if they are fast enough to perceive the projectile coming at them they should be able to change direction and be missed,, or use an implement to block. It makes no logical sense that someone fast enough to react to bullets after they are fired should be touched by a bullet regardless of the accuracy of the shooter, hence why Daredevil can dodge Bullseye regardless of his accuracy.

Here he tags just fine two Reed made beings, design to fight and kill. they are fast enough for Spider Woman to comment on their speed, and take her down. Hawkeye is able to put two in their head that they did not see coming or able to dodge.

The same beings were tagged by plenty of bullets in the first scan so I don’t see how tagging them is a feat, especially considering you are right their attention was elsewhere, they didn’t even see the arrows coming.

I also showed Hawkeye tag a far away Ghost Rider hitting super high speeds with a in accurate RPG.

This feat actually is possible though because Ghost Rider was not altering his course to avoid the RPG. Given Ult. Clint’s accuracy this one is totally possible. What would not be possible is Clint firing the RPG, Ghost Rider seeing it and making a 90 degree turn to the right and the RPG still hitting him. This is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Once the projectile is fired it cannot change its course, but the target can and if they aren’t where he was aiming originally they can’t get hit.

Point is this. Hawkeye never misses as he likes to boast, not saying its true, just what he is credited for. even if Bradley can eaily cut down Arrows, and dodge them, it will be hell due to the many factors Clint has. Including insane precision, leading the target, and rapid firing tons of arrows in the span of a second. All this will make dodging a hassle, even if they are arrows, and if Hawkeye uses one good Flash Arrow, its a game changer in favor of Hawkeye.

Point is that you are making the scans out to be more than they are, and trying to attribute higher feats to Hawkeye than he has demonstrated. I have gone through and explained how the context of each scan undermines your claims. As for my defense Bradley’s easiest option is just to slice the arrows as they come at him. Characters FAR slower than him have easily done so, cutting multiple arrows with one swing of the blade. Hawkeye’s explosive and flash arrows look different than normal arrows and his Ultimate Eye should have no problem seeing this and reacting in accordance. Another thing is that in every instance I have seen the explosive, nuke and flash arrows were on a delay, they hit their target and then there is a delay before the arrow explodes/flashes. This means all Bradley has to do is slice through the functional part of the arrow that provides the explosion and it’s a useless hunk of junk. This is well within Bradley’s capability since he can casually dance around bullets and cut a tank shell in half with his blades. The Ultimate Eye allows him to instantly spot the precise point where he would need to slice it and he’s certainly fast enough to do so. The Flash Arrow isn’t so impossible for Bradley to counter as you make it seem.

As for making cover for Hawkeye, thats not that helpful for few reasons. One is Hawkeye will be jumping around for a better view easy. He has insane jumping feats, and moving speed feats I showed above. Another is explosive Arrows he carries will reduce it to rubble. Third reason is Scar is under threat of Cap and Miles. Cap who is tossing Grenades, and shooting on the charge, and Miles who is invisible to Scar, using web attacks. I do not realistically see Scar having time for this without getting nailed first.

Just because Hawkeye is moving around does not mean that the cover is useless, it still makes his job much, much more difficult. Him jumping isn’t going to get a good view, and depending on the height of the cover he wouldn’t even be able to jump high enough to get a view anyways. His explosive arrows are realistically limited in number and Scar can reform the cover at will so by all means waste all the explosive arrows trying to destroy something that can easily and instantly be put back in place. Once again Cap’s grenades are limited. Scar has been through a war where grenades were used, he understand them and how they work, he can shield himself with alchemy in an instant. Moreover Bradley and Greedling are going to be engaging Cap so he will be plenty busy fighting them off. Cap’s bullets are also limited. With him firing at my group to test them he will deplete his ammo quickly, and Scar can make himself cover to shield from the bullets if he needs to. Alchemy has been shown in the show to be nearly instantaneous, Ed even created a wall to shield him from Gatlin gun fire after it started firing.

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As you can see bullets are flying toward Ed from the gatling gun, and then he erects a wall to block them before they reach him.

Scar can also create a dust cloud between Hawkeye’s position and my team’s to obscure us from Hawkeye’s view, as he has shown the ability before.

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Miles Again

I agree with some of this. Bradley would likely end Miles in a one on one. However there is several factors here that allow Miles a good chance at a win.

One being the fact Miles has shown the Spider Sense as more than general warning, it helps even in the middle of a fight or attacks to avoid impossible attacks. I showed the feats in the early part of this counter. Miles Spider Sense has shown several feats in accuracy of predicting a specific threat to him in a area of many threats. it should warn him just fine to avoid the blatant counter by Bradley. The speed feats of Miles should more than show he can likely dodge for a short while as well.

None of those were impossible to avoid attacks, that is your own embellishment. As I showed earlier in this debate Miles has been tagged plenty of times in close quarters by melee attacks from people slower than Bradley. As I showed earlier Bendis himself, the creator of the character, stated that his Spider-sense does not tell him where the danger is coming from, it is only a general warning that he is in danger. How is Bradley’s counter blatant? The guy can move so fast he can’t be seen by guys who react to bullets after they are fired, Miles has failed to react to opponents far slower.

Two Miles has the assistance of the Flash Arrow from Clint, and Flash Bang from Steve. Both being the genius fighters they are can pop one off to help Miles. Both show a interest in the Kids safety in character as well. Meaning they will help.

Already countered this. Firstly Hawkeye will have to be able to get through the cover and dust cloud obscuring his vision. Secondly If it’s close enough to Bradley that it will affect him he can either look away, or slice it before it goes off rendering it useless. Even if Bradley is facing the other direction fighting he should be able to react. With his back to them when they started firing Bradley was able to dodge rifle fire from 3 Briggs soldiers and kill them in less than a second covering massive ground.

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You can't see it in the gif, but if you watch the video it's clear that Bradley is facing Greedling (facing away from the troops) when they open fire. This is also shown in the manga.

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Three Cap and Hawkeye can, and will likely tell Miles what to do to save himself, in this case either jump over Bradley, something Miles can do easy, or Web Spam him. Once the Web Spam is pulled off, that is that. It is no way the same as Hawkeye dodging Web Balls, its spread out webbing over a area. Miles real issue is surviving the initial counter from Bradley, which by feats I think he can more than do.

You keep saying this but as I’ve said before Hawkeye is going to have his view obscured by cover and a thick dust cloud. Ultimate Cap is going to have his hands full with Greedling if Miles is fighting Bradley. If Ultimate Cap isn’t paying full attention at all times Greedling will gut him. Greedling is fast enough that just glancing away for a second will cost cap dearly. He isn’t going to have time to be watching Miles’ fight and coaching him.

As for the web spam Bradley should have no problem dodging or cutting through it. His swords have cut through steel and solid stone like butter. Miles jumps over Bradley and then what? Bradley can follow him, he isn’t going to stand there gawking, and Bradley has ridiculous leaping feats of his own that can compare with anything Miles has done. He ran and leapt along falling debris, he’s leapt massive distances in his chase of the tank, when he attacked Greedling, and in his fight with Scar. Bradley has superhuman leaping ability.

There is several options here, and thanks to the inner team work this team has, as well both Caps and Hawkeye's tactical minds, I see Miles having a good chance here.

Miles has a chance, don’t get me wrong, you’ve done a good job debating for him. However his odds aren’t good for all the reasons I’ve already stated. My team has a counter for any situation you’ve mentioned and Bradley has the perfect tools to take Miles out, likely very early.

Makes sense to me. though with a simple Web Sling, or super jump, and Miles is all over Scar should he chose that option.

Already discussed this and why it isn’t such a great counter. Bradley can leap superhuman distances too, he can follow Miles, and Miles does NOT want to turn his back to him. If he needs to Bradley can throw a sword as well, he has shown excellent accuracy in doing so, and he carries five swords standard gear so he won’t miss one should he lose it.

Also are Mile’s webs invisible when he is invisible? I honestly can’t seem to remember, but I’m pretty sure they aren’t so this would be a dead giveaway to Scar about Mile’s location.

I think your counter is really well thought out if not for one major problem. The Misconception of you, and many people, thinking the Venom Sting is bio electricity. Its never stated as such, and by feats is not.

Well Brian Michael Bendis, Mile’s creator has stated that his Venom Sting is similar to 616 Jessica Drew’s Venom Blast, which we all know is bio-electric.

“There are two powers that are different, both of which you see in this issue. One is the spider-sting. It's a little similar to the venom blast of the Marvel Universe's Spider-Woman, but it's different.”

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=34654

If its electrical, then why does it travel through Legos?

I wouldn't say them exploding is any conclusive proof that it traveled through them.

If its Electrical, then how does it travel through 616 Peter's electricity proof webbing?

616 Peter’s standard webbing is not electricity proof. He has different varieties of webbing and some of them are certainly electricity proof, but as we don’t know what type of webbing he was carrying this is also inconclusive proof that it’s not electrical in nature. The fact is electricity has passed through some varieties of his webbing before, and this call into the question the legitimacy of your defense.

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If its electrical, then how does Electro of all people is affected by it, when Electro is powered up by electricity sources?

Unlike everyone else who was hit with the Venom Sting Electro didn’t burst into yellow bolts of what is seemingly electric, but instead it was blue, like his energy body. This leads me to believe the bio-electric nature of it could have unbalanced or overloaded his electrical body causing it to backfire like that.

Again there is no statements of it being able Bio Electricity in nature, as it is there is no statements what it is in the comics themselves. I see no reason for the Venom Sting not to by pass the Ultimate Shield in one shot.

Ultimately I am going to concede to you the point about it being electrical. Although I think your evidence is inconclusive at best I can’t in good conscience say that it is for sure electrical either, so I will grant you that it is threat. That said there it is no way impossible to counter. Even assuming that Miles is going to immediately go to it, which he may not, Greedling is fast enough to keep up, is far more skilled than Miles, and has claws that will shred Miles like newspaper.

Assuming that Miles can land a venom sting on Greedling I’m still not convinced that it wouldn’t take multiple to put him down. Venom was able to tank multiple Venom stings and Greedling has durability and regeneration on par with Venom, or above.

Which is another thing. I am not sold on the idea that the venom sting would bypass Greedling’s regeneration. The Homunculi regenerative factors are nothing you can compare to healing factors in Marvel. They are powered by a Philospher’s stone at their core. The philosopher stone powers an alchemic reaction that heals them completely and brings them back to life after being killed. Lust was able to regenerate back from being vaporized completely. Gluttony has regenerated from being cut into pieces, decapitated, stabbed in the head, blown up with Scar’s destruction alchemy, Envy has had limbs hacked off and had the flesh burned off his body repeatedly, his eyes vaporized, Sloth was impaled multiple times, and Greed was stabbed, hacked to pieces, and even had his head smashed off with a battle hammer and immediately grew back. The first Greed was killed over 15 times by Bradley and it never got close to using up his regeneration.

Being able to bring someone back from death > being able to bring them back from being paralyzed. You could venom sting Greedling until you’re exhausted and he will just keep coming back until you use up every last life in the philosopher stone (there are thousands). Furthermore the Philosopher Stone has been used to cure paralysis in the show, as exemplified by when Doctor Marcoh used it to cure Jean Havoc.

Cap

Ultimate Nuke for all intents and purpass, is a bad example. The fact is Cap and Nukes are equals in stats, tactical ability, and skills. The biggest difference between them in fights was who wanted to win more. Let me addressed this with all four issues here.

My point is that if Nuke could get plenty of hits on Cap, someone faster and similarly skilled like Bradley or Greedling should also be able to. I know there is context to their fights, I just meant to demonstrate someone with speed of the characters on my team should have no trouble landing hits on Cap, and he cannot just block everything they come at him with.

In the end the Nuke fight is a very bad example. As for the grenades, its true they become less useful in a clump fight, but there are still super useful as Cap aim and ability to "chuck" them over obstacles to gain attack advantage on foes, who may or may not even notice them. Also Ultimate Wolverine by speed feats is on par with Bradley, yet Cap timed a frag on his claws. If Cap can land a accurate Grenade on the super fast Wolverine claws, I see no reason for anyone on the other team to fair better.

In that instance Wolverine just stood there and gave him an easy target. He literally stood still, watched it land on his claws and yet had time to say “Oh crap”. It’s poor writing. I’m sorry but a grenade does not travel nearly fast enough to get past Bradley who has reacted to gunfire after having his back turned to those firing.

Cutting a Grenade in half is a bad Idea as well. Its going to set it off.

Are you sure? What exactly makes you think that cutting a grenade in half will set it off? Most modern grenades, including every one I've ever seen Ultimate Cap use are timed. This means that impact will not set them off. If Bradley slices the grenade so that it severs the means of ignition from the explosives the grenade will not go off. He demonstrated the ability to do so when Fu tried to take him down with a suicide bombing.

The healing factor is like wise still helpful as the above scan of Caps torture shows. it allows him to continue fighting on no matter what. It really helps him, and limits the over all damage of your teams attacks, minus Scar's arm. So while he maybe the fastest physically, Cap still has the reaction feats and most importantly, the Shield to block or defend from most Bradley's attacks.

It will marginally help him keep fighting, but Cap isn’t healing back from any of Bradley’s slashes as fast as Bradley will be able to deliver new attacks since every slash will slow Cap more and more. Knife wounds take minutes to heal, gun wounds hours. Cap doesn’t have that kind of time in this fight. True, the shield will come in very handily, but all it takes is one misstep and Bradley will capitalize. This is where his Ultimate Eye predicting Cap’s moves will come in especially handy. Bradley is fast enough to move around the shield, and skilled enough to feint in order to gain an opening. Remember Fu had bullet-dodging feats on par with what Ult. Cap can do and he couldn’t get a scratch on Bradley, while the moment Bradley got a sword in his hands he took Fu down hard.

Its impressive Scar beat Bradely still given the conditions, but he is clearly inferior when Bradely was very much injured, missing the Eye, and had Flash Bang interference to help Scar. Thats all. Cap meanwhile has on his own feats that are pretty much superior in every way to what Scar accomplish on his own. Cap IMO can take Scar out easy with a casual Frag Grenade toss into is are, or Flash Bang. I can see the Shield ending Scar as well. I had yet to bring up Ultimate Cap's shield feats and skill.

Yes, he’s inferior to Bradley, and frankly 1 v. 1, so is everyone on your team. Despite his injuries Bradley was still moving at superspeed, as you can see here.

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Bradley was also leaping around with superhuman agility. His injuries really didn’t affect him that much in terms of speed and reflexes.

Cap's ability to bounce his shield off multiple targets and back to him in the middle of a hand to hand fight is reason enough to see Scar being in serious trouble should Cap be facing say Greedling. Cap has tons of cars and other obstacles to bounce the shield off. This feat is also useful to help Miles facing a possible Bradley scenario. Allowing Cap to throw the Shield to nail Bradley int he head. His Ultimate Eye is only useful for what it sees.

The shield bounce is a good thought, but in reality it’s not a very good option for Cap. Let’s assume as you say for a second that he is fighting Greedling 1v. 1 and he uses a shield toss to try and nail Scar or Bradley. First Greedling is going to yell to watch out for it. Second he is going to press the advantage of Steve not having his shield. This means Steve is going to have his hands full trying to avoid Greedling’s attacks and he’s most likely not going to be in the correct position to catch the shield on return, unless he can somehow be in the same place when the shield returns and have a free hand to catch it. The scans you showed all showed Steve taking out fodder with the shield while he was not engaged in any H2H combat himself. This situation is completely different. I don’t think Steve will want to risk losing his shield in this fight. Without it he’s toast against either Greedling or especially Bradley.

Furthermore my team (unlike the fodder in those scans) have the tools and reflexes to easily dodge or deflect such an attack. Bradley’s Ultimate Eye can calculate the trajectories and velocities of objects instantly as it demonstrated when it calculated the perfect path for him to run and leap among the falling debris.

There is really no indication how durable Assemble is. He didn’t show anything that impressive in the scans shown durability-wise. There is nothing to suggest he is even close to as durable as Thor, Hulk, or Giant-Man. Durability against blunt force is also not the same as durability against slicing. Most characters have far greater durability against blunt force, which explains why Juggernaut empowered Rogue would possibly have trouble. I would have to see her hits on him to be able to make any real kind of educated assessment. Unless you could provide more durability feats for him I don’t see how that effects this battle. Cap’s shield has long defied any kind of laws of physics. It bounces off objects when he wants it to, and it slices through or buries itself in objects when he wants it to. This doesn’t prove any kind of concrete velocity for the shield in this situation.

A attack from behind would end Bradley. Its too fast even for him to avoid, and since Cap early on knows Bradley's speed, he could whip this bad boy for a sure decap from behind should Cap be facing Greedling, and Miles being attacked by Bradley.

I know Cap can throw the shield fast, but he’s not throwing it fast enough to overwhelm Bradley’s reactions. The guy can cut a tank shell in half with a sword, deflect machinegun fire, and dance around assault rifle bullets casually. At best Ult. Cap’s shield throws have velocity similar to these things, and 2 of those 3 feats were without the Ultimate Eye. With Greedling’s warning there is no reason Bradley shouldn’t be able to react, and he could also hear the sound of the shield ricocheting considering it has been shown to make sound as it bounces off objects. Once he’s caught a glimpse of the shield with the ultimate eye it should no longer pose a threat to him.

All good points, the idea at best is to distract him for Hawkeye and Miles. However I wonder now if the Ultimate Shield would do against physical force. I been thinking about it, and I recall nothing of his durability holding up against super strength blows. Not just few tons of force, but force enough to harm 30+ ton foes.

All in all Greedling tank a RPG no problem, but so has many of the above characters that Cap put down with his striking abilities from Kicks or with Shield. So I have to ask, what feats Greedling has to say Cap cannot possibly KO or even tax Greedling? With his Shield he manage to by pass the durability of Assemble, and Warmachine. cutting them up in fact. I think he should very well be able to do the same to Greedling.

Bradley states in dialogue that Greed’s ultimate shield is impenetrable. Nothing in the show ever even phased Greedling when his shield was up. Not Bradley’s swords which can cut through steel, not machinegun fire, not explosions, or an RPG, not being hit by a speeding armored troop carrier, or being in the tunnel when it collapsed on him. Furthermore Greed is stated to be the most durable Homonculus with his ultimate shield up, and Sloth was able to shrug off tank fire with no harm so we know tank fire would not harm him either. Like I said before alchemy is the only way to physically get through the shield by changing its molecular structure. Warmachine can be explained by the fact that as a robot there are natural weaknesses in his armor at the joints and Cap capitalized on this in conjunction with his shield and strength to dismember Warmachine's arm. Greedling has no such weakness, no point in his armor is any weaker than the rest.

Hawkeye

Yes it does matter, as the Arrows is a steady flow of distractions, and Hawkeye' skills of tagging bullet timers or bullet time objects is well shown. Hawkeye can and does easily lead targets. Its all a factor, none of your guys is close to Quicksilver speeds which is needed to make Hawkeye arrows a non factor. As for unlimited arrows, no he has a limit, and in the space of a minuet this battle will be over. Arrrows is not all Hawkeye has anyway as standard gear. Its just one option I highlighted for Hawkeye.

Hitting a web that can only go in a straight linear motion, and cannot react or change direction is completely different than tagging something with sentient thought process that can react to your projectiles and alter their location to avoid the projectile. Furthermore I already pointed out that they was context to every case you pointed out of Hawkeye tagging people who are supposedly quick enough to bullet-time. Those instances do not apply to this situation.

Lets say in the battle your characters counter the arrows to the point Hawkeye cannot tag them, and sees this. Time to hit the SHIELD issue guns then.

Lots of random scans with one thing in common, Hawkeye packs serious fire power. Should the Arrows alone fail on people like say Bradley, he can easily switch it up to his SHIELD issue machine gun. I will not use the custom Crossbow/Guns becuase he has not used them in awhile, but still in current material uses SHIELD made sub machine guns or hand guns. Now the Gun has Mach 2 projectile speed, with the best Marksmen on the planet. Thats 2400 FpS vs 400 FPS. That is a huge gap in speed, and your character like Bradely is simply not dodging them that well. Hawkeye with Arrows as shown above tag impossible fast targets, now he has a machine gun.

This is completely false logic. Firstly Bradley has already deflected machinegun fire with his sword. The standard bullet velocity for a machinegun of that type is around 2,400-2,500 fps. This means Bradley has already proven that he can deflect fire that is just as fast, and just as rapid as anything that Hawkeye can come at him with. I hate to sound like a broken record but it bears repeating. It doesn’t matter how accurate you are if your opponent is fast enough to dodge the bullet after it is fired, or deflect the bullet before it reaches its target. No one you mentioned is “impossible fast” you mentioned a bunch of characters, all of which there was context as to why they couldn't dodge it.

I really see no reason for someone with Hawkeye's feats of tagging Bullet timers with arrows failing to do better with 5 times faster bullets.

I really see no reason for someone who has demonstrated to be fast enough to deflect machinegun fire and dance around rifle bullets casually to be tagged by bullets that are not moving any faster than those he has faced in the past. Furthermore he can regenerate back instantly from a gunshot wound, he had all his flesh vaporized off and regenerated instantly. Bullets aren’t even going to tickle Greedling, and although Scar cannot dodge in the open for an extended period of time he’s fast enough to react to bullets after they are fired as he has shown on multiple occasions I have already mentioned, and when he dodged an attack with velocity likely higher than that of a tank shell.

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This very same attack had enough velocity to damage Sloth, who shrugged off tank rounds with no problem. Given it's mass is similar to that of a tank round it's velocity must be greater than a tank round.
This very same attack had enough velocity to damage Sloth, who shrugged off tank rounds with no problem. Given it's mass is similar to that of a tank round it's velocity must be greater than a tank round.

Add in the fact hawkeye has to work around the cover and everything my team puts into effect to obscure his view and make his job difficult, and he’s going to have his work cut out for him.

Here is the problem, your basing all this on nothing. First off, to even attempt to shoot down my feat, I like to see Proof of a statement or something that it is in fact a Force Field, and not one of the many drawn blasts IM has shown. Second I need proof that the arrows being used are wide explosive. Second, even if we assume, and thats all it is, baseless assumption, if we assume all this then that still means these arrows in a confine space damage Hulk more than a mega ton nuclear bomb had. Something Hulk tank and shown to tank with no real damage to him. That would still mean the confine blast is grater than the building busting blasts of Iron Man. All still pretty insane high. However I really like to see proof of your assumptions. Mine are pretty solid in base.

I am just trying to use logic and knowledge of physics to try and understand a situation. It seems pretty suspicious that the explosives should be that powerful on their own, and yet the explosion from them going off doesn’t even leave the area of Tony’s “blast” which barely encapsulates Hulk’s head. Sure, I could be wrong, and I’m not banking on this one point to make or break my argument. I am merely trying to understand the inconsistencies displayed in the Ultimate Universe. You yourself said Hulk can take blasts from a Nuke and building destroying blasts, but then 3 explosive arrows that don’t even have a blast radius greater than Hulk’s head do that much damage?

Is not the first time Hawkeye used Explosive arrows that had no wide range blast.

Sure, those explosive arrows didn’t have a wide blast, but they also didn’t blow apart Hulk’s face, they merely shattered windows. Shattering windows is not something that would require that much explosive power. Clearly Hawkeye packs several different levels of power with his explosive arrows.

Here Hawkeye shows the power of a nuclear yield in a 20 meter radius.

Okay, are we sure that those arrows he used against Hulk weren’t these kind of arrows? It would actually make sense possibly then if those arrows that blew away part of Hulk’s face were nuclear yield strength.

All these prove more than anything to me his arrows can pack alot of punch in a small radius, period. Enough to blow apart Hulk's face. I see no reason for it to be assumed otherwise.

Okay, you still have to tag my team with them. With a blast radius that small only a direct hit is going to do anything. There is also the fact that every such arrow we have seen has been on a delay, and it’s unlikely it will be nearly as effective on my team as you suggest.

The Flash Arrow seems to have a radius of effect, after all Captain America was not blinded when Thor was. Its no different than seeing a Flash Bang from a distance compared to the most effective radius. Regardless its something that will work for sure on Greedling or Scar. I think it will work fine on Bradely if he is indeed "coming after" Hawkeye. If that is the case, Hawkeye uses it immediately, and then pumps Bradly full of those arrows at super speed.

Okay, well Bradley sure isn’t going to be catching the arrow and just holding it there in his hand like Thor did so I’m not sure how it’s going to work on him. He can simply slice the functional part of the arrow as I said rendering it useless, or dodge the arrow. If what you say about it having a limited area of effect is correct it’s not going to be close enough with a miss to effect Bradley. I don’t know how you really expect that tactic to work on a Bradley who is coming after Hawkeye either . Lastly even if Hawkeye manages to get lucky and blind Bradley, and proceeds to riddle Bradley with arrows, it isn’t going to make a difference. Bradley isn’t going to be stopped by a couple arrows, and he can regenerate back from anything Hawkeye can do to him. Hawkeye can hit Bradley with an explosive that vaporizes him and he’s going to regenerate in seconds, and he won’t be blinded anymore.

As I stated above, it can be used safely with some warning, and the Arrow will still distract Greedling even if he can adapt to it in a short time by using his Pulse method. Your right again about radius, which is why i think Cap and Hawkeye can use the Flash Bang like attacks without hitting themselves thanks to the accuracy feats I showed both Cap, and Hawkeye have with their respective gear.

If the area effect is small enough that they won’t be effected, it likely that my team will have no trouble being outside their effective range as well. My team are fast enough to react to bullets, they are certainly fast enough to react to a thrown grenade. The grenade cannot redirect itself mid-air so they should have no problem getting out of its path.

I never seen Wrath having Regen, can I see that? I remember he had a human like body in the fact injuries are not healed easy at all. Greedling can heal easy, but that still leaves Miles two viable instant win ways to deal with Greedling while he is is hindered re healing in the short time it happens.Its all to buy time. Name of the game. As for the use of Explosive arrows, I already showed with two other Explosion arrows the very limited AOE they have. no reason to think they will hurt my team at all. Thats been discussed all above.

I showed it in my very first post, but I would be happy to repost. As you will see he regenerates from having his flesh burned off instantly. Bradley has regeneration in FMA, but not in FMA: Brotherhood, which is why he doesn’t have regeneration in many of the scans and videos I posted. You agreed to composite versions for my characters.

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Watch at 3:15. He regenerates from a charred corpse in seconds.

This is a fair point. While the Venom Sting will work fine, this means the Taser arrow is only good for Bradley and Scar. Should Hawkeye decide to use that on them.

Once again he still has to tag them with one of those arrows for it to work.

Summary

As I showed, most of my tools will work fine. Explosive Arrows, Flash bangs, Frag Grenades, Bullets, Shield, Webbing, and Venom Sting are still game changers. The Taser Arrow is only useful on two of the three enemies, that changed, and Cloak of Miles is reduced to only working on Scar. Fair points on that, but the rest works just fine. Then their is the raw strength stats of Miles and Cap anyway in this battle to put down Scar or Bradley.

And as I have countered most of your tools will be ineffective. I have addressed each one individually.

Hawkeye can easily jump to a higher position to see, or fire while airborne like he has before. Creating some cover is not changing this.

Depends how high the cover is, how far away Hawkeye is, and dozens of other factors. As I’ve said earlier Scar can also use his alchemy to create dust clouds as I have shown evidence of, between Hawkeye and the rest of us, further obscuring Hawkeye’s view.

Honestly I feel Miles is as viable to stay alive than Cap or Hawkeye because both Cap and Hawkeye in character look out for Miles, and Miles has the feats to show he can hold his own against anyone minus Bradley, and even then for a time. Meanwhile I feel so far Scar is the major weak link for your team. He has neither the speed of Bradley, or the durability of Greedling to simply hang in there.

I feel the match is a close one, but due to the counter arguments above, I feel the power sets, and gear still allow them to win. Imo Scar will go down first, then Bradely. The longest part of the battle is dealing with Greedling if Miles cannot for any reason, but if miles lives long enough, Greedling goes down alot faster.

I have addressed all of these points already. While engaged with enemies as fast and skilled and ruthless as my team Hawkeye and Cap will need to be focused on what they are doing just to stay alive. They won’t have time to be coaching Miles, and Hawkeye won’t even be able to see to help Miles anyway between the dust cover and earthen constructs. Scar may not be as fast as Bradley, but he’s no slowpoke either. He can react to bullets after they are fired, is very agile, strong, very skilled and experienced in combat, and can destroy an enemy in one touch.

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He also has range and variety thanks to his alchemy. Given how the fight has been argued to play out I don’t think he has presented himself as a weak link, or easy to take out. Above is shown a few more scans to show his range of abilities. The first one demonstrates how he has a large AoE with his alchemy when he wants to. The second one shows him using it for projectile attacks. The third is him using speed and agility to dodge dozens of fast attacks with a wide area. The fourth shows him stating that Ed is too slow (Ed is a bullet-timer) and the last shows his strength throwing a large steel pipe with enough velocity and force to impale Kimblee and send him flying back.

I feel the match is also very close. Your team has a lot of skill and ability, and you have debated well for them. However I cannot feasibly see any route to victory for them that is consistent or probable. They will put up an excellent fight, but they will fall in the end.

Ultimately I see Miles going down first taken by surprise and overwhelmed quickly. From there Greedling and Scar can take Cap, both have the skill, powers, and physicals to do so, while Bradley can take out Hawkeye who really has no counter to him 1 v.1.

@sirfizzwhizz

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#35 Posted by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry for any formatting problems, as hard as i try I can't get CV to show them how I want it to, and I've been crushed for time.

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#36 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: no biggy, I will post again in a day or two. After the third post and your own, I think we can wrap this up, most of what needed to be said seem to been said. So I will make some counters, and you can finish this off.

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#37 Posted by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

Sounds good.

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#38 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde:

Miles

Miles’ speed and spider-sense have not saved him from having his mask webbed off by Spider-Man, or being grabbed by Scorpion, or being snagged by Venom, or being kicked by Batroc and Prowler, tagged by Rhino, and so on. Point being that he is far from untouchable, and it’s certainly not unlikely he could be tagged by Bradley or Greedling. No one he has faced has demonstrated the combination of speed and skill that my team possesses.

While all the characters you mention tag Miles, there is context to all of them. Prowler and Scorpion tagged only a newbie Miles, its like saying Punisher tag early Peter so likely anyone can. Thats not the case. Rhino tagged Miles once through a surprise hit. Venom is every bit as fast as Ultimate Peter, and yet Miles danced around him most of the fights till distracted. So yes, while Bradley or Greedling can indeed tag miles, Miles is still as fast by feats. Skill added to your feats is not really anymore impressive than Miles dancing around prowler when he got serious, or dancing around Batroc who you pointed out tagged Miles a few time, and yet Miles danced around his attacks more. Infact let me really break this down.

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In the whole fight of Peter (which is impressive still) had Miles and Peter both holding back. Peter still has superior experience, stats, and feats. While Peter had a cold, thats not enough for a guy with a mild healing factor to not work around like Peter. Miles had none of this, but his Spider Powers set still let Miles tag Peter. Example of this is is when Miles was avoiding holding back attack of Peter, and tag him with a Venom Sting. Another is when Spider man looks right at Miles on his web, but gets a foot to the face anyway. In this we see Miles avoid not one, but two web shots before getting tag by a web to the mask anyway.

Taskmaster has the power to absorb any power of any super in his vincinity. This guy was also stated to have fought ultimate Wolverine with some success. In thi fight he was absorbing both Miles and Spider Girls stats, and powers. This should include Spider Sense, Speed (even Miles states how fast he is and strong he becomes), ect.

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So in this battle against a highly train enemy, who absorbs the Spider Stats and powers. Miles against this guy tags him several times with webbing along with Spider Girl.

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Her miles tags several Warmachines flying in strafing runs (Supersonic speeds if not faster like most jets) with his webbing from a distance away on the ground, tagging one Warmachine in the face.

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Miles was not hit by Rhino till right after being fazed by the major explosion in his face.

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most people bring up the Miles vs Proweler argument. Not a good example at all since Miles has never fought a real fight at that point, and was holding back as well confused by being attacked by his beloved Uncle who is skilled. In the end Miles Decimated his uncle when he tried.

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In fact the only time Prowler could deal with Miles superior abilities was a massive AoE sonic weapons, and even then Miles closes in and tags him alot after he stops holding back against his beloved uncle. He gets hit like 3 times out of all the massive area effect blasts, and never tagged in close combat when he closes in twice except at the end when he already knew he won with the Venom Sting.

Batroc is not a legit argument as that guy showed superhuman ability.

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Throwing even a 13 year old boy across the street and through a window of a building, then said kid still flew 20-30 feet into a object.

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This same Batroc who caters the concrete road with his feet!!! Nothing low showing about it, the guy was clearly super human. Maybe he has super agility and speed too. He already showed super human qualities. So its not really a legit argument either.

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Looking at the whole fight, Miles is kicked once, then dodges the second attack in the form of a stomp. Yet Miles clearly is able to land and could have Venom Sting Batroc right then and there. Plot said no. So Batroc throws him, kicks him in mid air again, and then Miles with all his speed and own skill caught the second kick, and throws Batroc as well. Then Miles engages Batroc while having bullets sent his way avoiding all that till thrown again through a window. Then Miles ends the fight with his superior stats. Best part of all is not once does Miles get hurt here, and Miles shows the ability just fine to dodge, or even counter attack this guy that people like to bring up. Attack him while avoiding gun fire to boot.

Miles has great speed and reaction in battles or stand alone feats. He is clearly on most Spider men level.

You said that Miles was “Leading the frontal attack with captain America”, you then describe Cap’s strategy as charging in “Cap will like wise charge in”. From your own words the description of what is happening is Miles charging headlong into the battle. That does not sound like him being cautious to me. This is what he has been commanded to do by Ultimate Captain America, so regardless of what his normal individual strategy is in combat he is “charging in” in this situation. So he’s charging in, he’s invisible so he’s confident he can get a hit on the enemy without them noticing him, and BAM they suddenly make a move. Considering Giant Woman was able to grab him when he was invisible and actively trying to be careful Bradley and Greedling should once again have little trouble doing so considering they are faster and more skilled, and he is being less careful in this situation.

Yeah he is charging in, how does this equal to Miles will not react to a attack? It does not. I been in fights, and charged in only to get near kicks to the head, I still react. Your logic of saying Miles is simply unable to counter in a fight is flawed, as long he has the Sense, and Speed to react, he will. Saying things like Miles is confident when Invisible is false as well. Many times invisible he shows caution, because he knows many times that things like sound, debris, ect can and had gave away his position. He also still has the very well shocase Spider Sense I showed in my early post that will alert him to specific dangers in the middle of a fight. I showcased this well earlier, if voters remember in the beggining of post #32.

How does miles dodge an attack this fast at point blank range when he isn't expecting it? He's been tagged by far slower people.

Only with context, and yet Miles feats have shown to hang with Super sonic level foes as well. So I guess your argument is ignore the high ends, and focus on low ends? I see no reason why by Speed feats alone Miles is not fast enough to dodge or react. I see even less reason by his speed feats against other fast beings either.

Miles defeats 95% of these “beings he has no business fighting” through the plot device known as his venom sting. That isn’t skill, that is having a hero shield, invisibility, and insta-KO ability. Yes, being trained is not the entirety of skill; the other part is experience and the ability to implement what you have trained in a fight. Greedling and Bradley are both vastly more skilled than Miles by any way you wish to measure skill. Using the environment, powers, and stats to his advantage is not something exclusive to Miles. Greedling and Bradley have both demonstrated this ability. They have also defeated opponents like Edward and Alphonse Elric, Roy Mustang, and Scar who have also demonstrated these abilities.

Let me re show what you just said. this is important. "Miles defeats 95% of these “beings he has no business fighting” through the plot device known as his venom sting." That is the point. Miles is skilled enough with experience, he is no master fighter, but his stats make up for that. His power make up for that. His Spider Sense is as good as years of practicing to recognize a attack. Miles strength, and speed make up for hand to hand martial arts. His webbing, Camo, and Venom Sting are simply chessy hax powers that even the most skilled beings cannot deal with. Best part is Miles makes good use of these powers, and proves this time and again fighting beings well ahead of him. Including those with skill.

Greedling and Bradley are way lower in terms of strength yes, but their other stats are not significantly lower than Mile’s. They are both just as fast as Miles, both have superhuman agility, both have healing factors superior to his, Bradley is slightly less durable whereas Greed is significantly more durable, and stamina should be a draw. I don’t know where the claim Miles has a way higher stat level comes from. Bradley and Greedling are slightly lower than him in overall stats, but significantly more skilled and experienced. Once again strength is his only real major advantage in stats and it’s pretty useless in this fight. As you can see below both Greedling and Bradley can move so fast people capable of reacting to bullets and moving faster than can be seen themselves couldn't properly react.

Don’t make me laugh “with weaker stats and less useful powers”, what exactly is more useful than being able to turn invisible to most opponents and KO most opponents with a touch? Once again without that one power he would have lost the majority of fights he’s been in.

You forgot Webbing which no one has a counter too if tagged by it. And Miles has tagged skilled and fast foes like fly by Warmachines, and Task Master after he absorb Spider Speed with it. Web Spam like Miles done twice in his short career makes dodging or countering even harder, then its a Web incap. Greedling and Scar are at a disadvantage against Miles, only Bradly with his swords, Ultimate Eye, and speed has a good shot to win, and even then a well place Web Spam can counter that, or Miles can simply run away from him easy to engage someone else. Your stated yourself Bradley is heading after Hawkeye in your earlier post as well. Healing factors mean little to the Venom Sting or Web incap as well.

I never claimed that he “never” remembers. I said it has been stated more than once on panel that he does forget which is absolutely true. My point in saying that wasn’t even to say that he won’t use invisibility or venom sting here. My point was to show that he’s not even close to my team in terms of tactical fighting ability and awareness. Those are not mistakes anyone on my team would make. As for Cap and Hawkeye giving him orders I have no problem with that, but in a fight they can’t dictate everything he will be doing. A lot of his fighting has to be his own, he couldn’t even react in time if he was waiting for Cap or Hawkeye to give him a play by play. Besides they will have their own hands full.

The ONLY TIME Miles stated to forget his powers was early in his career, he had over a year since that last statement to grow up, and grasp his new found powers since then. Cap and Hawkeye shouting help is a major part of team work, and will come into play. Cap and Haweye skill and experience shows this in their own team work in battles. Its a factor.

I already addressed this. If he was being cautious and still got grabbed by someone slower and less skilled than either of my characters he will have little chance in this situation.

I addressed all this above.

As for this argument of Miles is going to have a hard time to change direction or avoid attack in a invisible state, this is not a case at all. He reaches out to do the Venom Sting or throw a punch, your guy counters. So what? Miles avoids the counter attack like he would any other invisible or not. By this logic, cloak or not Miles is getting nailed. Not seeing that base on Miles speed feats above.

Once again Miles has been consistently tagged by characters slower and less skilled than Bradley or Greedling. Bradley is fast enough to land multiple hits so fast it doesn’t look like he moved at all, and furthermore move so fast a bullet-timer couldn’t tell he moved. He has blitzed Lan Fan (who moves so fast it almost appears she’s teleporting and is another bullet-timer) from the street below, and overwhelmed Fu (who dodged machinegun fire in a narrow corridor) with his speed. Bradley has consistently been able to overwhelm bullet-timers with his speed, even when not using his Ultimate Eye. As for Greedling, he’s fast enough to block and dodge Bradley’s attacks throughout multiple fights, something pretty no one else in the show has been able to do. He was able to dodge and block Pride’s shadow attacks, and was fast enough to save Fu from Bradley’s blade and cross the entire courtyard so fast it almost appeared he teleported. As Ling he was also able to fight Bradley with Lan Fan over his shoulder, and he was beating Envy handily dodging all his attacks and cutting off his limbs.

He was looking forward and he knew what direction Mysterio was coming from beforehand. Add in the fact that Mysterio isn’t that fast and this feat simply isn’t as impressive as you make it out to be. It should have no bearing on this fight.

Once again you seem to like to embellish what is actually happening on the page. During that time there were no attacks coming at him from all sides. There was only one threat of “immediate danger” and that is the guy who the spider-sense detected. Not that it was that impressive he was already standing over Miles when the spider-sense went off. The Spider-sense, in the words of Bendis himself only detects immediate danger, which is why it detected the guy standing over him and not the fight going on elsewhere. The only threat to him that appears in that scan is the one it detected.

Why is part of the scan cropped out? I’d like to see the whole thing please.

He was riding on the one War Machine’s back, got a Spider-sense feeling and jumped off. Once again I can’t feel too impressed, he’s a bullet-timer he should be able to do this against bullets.

Limited space? He was in the open air, how is that limited space? That being said I am fairly impressed by this scan. However as we all know dodging projectiles doesn’t equate with dodging melee attacks.

How could a skilless kid timed Mysterio swing of a weapon with his back turn? The way your downing Miles feats, he should been hit on the head unless his Sense told him exactly when to dodge.

Can I see this quote for Miles? I love to see this proof Bendis stated Spider Sense is only detects immediate danger, because that is not how it works at all for 616 Spider Man, Silk, or other Spider characters lol. So where is this quote for Ultimate Miles? It clearly shows in the scan his Spider Sense going off with bullets flying all around the Triskleion, and specifically shows the Hydra Agent above him when it goes off. Very specific. Heck you want to claim how slow and skilless the kid is, yet these Nick Fury trained Hydra guys cannot tag Miles at all even though they surround him, his Spider Sense must been picking up the slack since Miles is according to you "Slow" and "Skilless". Seems your contradicted alot here. Is he slow and skilless? Meaning Spider Sense picking up the slack? Maybe he has skill and super speed but no useful Spider Sense? Or maybe he has all three, and like most people, you do not want to accept that because Miles is not 616 Peter

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Here. As seen. Miles still feels venom is a threat, and yet his snese has the cops all around yelling to arrest him, with guns drawn, yet the Spider Sense clearly warns Miles specifically of his dad being taken away as the panel shows, and then his spider Sense again warns him of the specific threat of the cops about to fire. Not that hard to see, nor understand why the crop was not fine by itself.

He was again in a a battlefield with explosion, bullets, and enemies everywhere, where his suppose "general" sense would been ringing non stop. How is it he knew just then only to dodge a possible attack? Unless it is more than "general" as Miles nay sayers like to claim. He knew exactly when to jump in perfect timing away from the gun fire.

Miles was dodging all this inside the Fantastic Four head quarters. Busting out only after already being fired on. Also please let me know how easy it is to avoid attack when rope swinging, because it is not. it is more impressive speed wise and reaction wise than anything you shown for your characters truth be told.

In comics and anime being able to dodge projectile attacks does not translate directly to dodging melee attacks. This is a basic principle of fictional debates. For example Batman can punch bullets, but gets tagged by people who aren’t even peak human at times. There are countless other examples I won’t waste our time going into since I am sure you are familiar with the principle. Besides Bendis himself has stated that the spider-sense only gives a warning that there is a general danger, it does not tell him which direction the danger is coming from.

“I did pretty good with it in "Ultimate Spider-Man," but sometimes the spider-sense is misused. In some comics I've seen it used as a metal detector, or all kinds of stuff. I'm going to try to make sure it only goes off when he's in immediate danger and that it only gives him a second's head start. Plus with that second you've got to know where the danger is coming from. That buzz could make you turn around and get hit in the face.” – Brian Michael Bendis

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=34654

Glad to see that, too bad it Im not arguing it being like that. It is not a metal detector, nor a map finder like 616 Peter, but it still detects danger, and it gives Miles forewarning to specific attacks in a pretty detail way. As I shown. So lets say your characters are going to stab Miles while he charges in. That pretty immediate, and he will sense that to avoid it. it is exactly how Bendis states it here, and supported by feats.

How else does a "skilles" kid by your own admission dodge attacks in close combat with beings like Venom, Prowler, Batroc, Scorpion, and more? The Spider Sense. It works with range and Close Combat.

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So many examples of a skilless kid countering close combat attacks, as well close combat mixed with range thanks to his Spider Sense and Spider Speed combo.

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Heck in his fight against Goblin, he owned the same monster that hand to hand wise tagged, and wrecked peter all the time. Goblin not only had blood drawn from him, something Peter could not do, but only physically nailed Miles twice in the close combat fight.

Miles is not some easy target to be dispatch here, and while lacking formal train hand to hand skill, Miles makes up for this with hax powers, and years experience of using said powers on foes far greater tier than being used here. He can pull wins, and with the help of Cap and Hawkeye thanks to the team work my team specifically shares, will pull wins more often than not.

Hawkeye Side Discussion

I’ve heard this claim that the webbing is as fast as bullets, but I have never seen a single shred of evidence to support this claim. Could you please provide some proof of this webbing being as fast as bullets claim?

Here is what I feel about Peter's webbing.

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I mean the guy guy tagged and ended multiple peak humans with web hits. They travel great distance in the panels in what seems a instant. How does fluidy glue with hardly no weight travel 50 meters lets say, faster than a normal human can see, or no effect from gravity on Spider Man for that matter? For weightless fluid to travel at that speed would require insane speed.

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Same webshotters Miles uses are Peter's. We see his webbing by panel look as fast as the 5.56 bullets in M-4s are traveling. We see him snatch a super sonic Warmachine in the air with a light trail behind it. We see his webs catch a falling dump truck. Whats impressive about this feat is the time it would take in a split second to spin enough webbing into that big of a net.

So i have no solid proof, just good reason to think these webs are close to average bullet speeds if not as fast. Base on the speed needed to project as fast this super glue formula can go in the distance it can go, well that right there is insane fast.

Rogue wasn’t looking back so she couldn’t react to his arrow, so tell me why her having bullet-dodging feats matters here? She can’t dodge when she’s running away completely oblivious to the projectile coming at her. This doesn’t prove that he can hit bullet-timers who are actually actively trying to dodge his projectiles.

She was still nailed with the insane speed Toad shown in the comics, and leaping away at great distances. Even the SHIELD agent thought it was a impossible shot due to her power set at the time, and how much distance she was putting between them.

Did you leave out the part where Widow was in a hospital bed and injured with possible brain damage when Hawkeye caught her by surprise and shot her? She certainly wasn’t at 100%. Add in the fact she had her eyes closed when the second shot comes in. What your argument suggested ignored the context of the situation.

You mean how the scan clearly shows Widow already out of the bed and running before being tagged, and the fact Widow is a casual Bullet Timer that Hawkeye stated before he has trouble keeping up with cause she is so fast? Nothing is ignored, she dodges Bullets easily, and has faster than human perception. She was till nailed by 400 FPS arrows with no hope to dodge. By feats she should honestly be fully able to smack them out of the air, not with Hawkeye for wahtever reason. Good feats of BS skill.

Even if the webs are as fast as bullets, which I am waiting for proof to support) he didn’t shoot the webs in motion (the front part that is actually potentially moving that fast. HE shot the part of the web trailing from it which isn’t nearly as impressive considering it’s not really moving.

Yeah shooting the web trail that is traveling in motion (yes in motion because Spidey is not yanking on it yet, and its not taunt to show it stop traveling) the size of my thumb, in the dark, from a casual bullet timer is impressive. Not sure how you can attempt to say its not impressive.....

The idea of being able to consistently hit someone who can react faster than your projectile is plain logically wrong. If someone can dodge a bullet, or arrow it does not matter how accurate the shooter is. Even with perfect aim they should not be able to tag someone who has bullet-dodging reflexes. The dodger’s reflexes are the same, and the projectile’s speed is the same so no matter how accurate you are the dodger should be able to move out of the projectile’s path in time to not get hit. Now there is the possibility of leading a target, but if they are fast enough to perceive the projectile coming at them they should be able to change direction and be missed,, or use an implement to block. It makes no logical sense that someone fast enough to react to bullets after they are fired should be touched by a bullet regardless of the accuracy of the shooter, hence why Daredevil can dodge Bullseye regardless of his accuracy.

Yet this crap happens ALL THE TIME in comics. Your going to apply science now? How is it possible to draw a bow string back and release a arrow one behind the other like Hawkeye can? How can you tag a 100+ mph target that is 1/4 a mile away with a RPG? How the sweaty sex monkey can you kill full body armor soldiers with fingernail on your hand? How is it possible Hawkeye with a machine gun blow up a Warmachine design by Anthony Stark?

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This is what Hawkeye can do with his skill/power/whatever. That is what he does consistently. Trying to apply science to the feats is not a way to go. I already showed proof of Hawkeye nailing several bullet timers that for whatever reason could not react to his arrows. It is consistent. Simple as that.

The same beings were tagged by plenty of bullets in the first scan so I don’t see how tagging them is a feat, especially considering you are right their attention was elsewhere, they didn’t even see the arrows coming.

Tagged by Black Widow 2 from a rapid fire volley from her own marksmanship, and then fully had time to react to the arrows from HE, who was standing further back. If they can move faster than Spider Woman, there is no argument to simply downplay as "they were sneak attack" when the attack came in front of their eye. HE was standing in front of them. They could not dodge as easily they could react and out speed Spider Woman. Period.

This feat actually is possible though because Ghost Rider was not altering his course to avoid the RPG. Given Ult. Clint’s accuracy this one is totally possible. What would not be possible is Clint firing the RPG, Ghost Rider seeing it and making a 90 degree turn to the right and the RPG still hitting him. This is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Once the projectile is fired it cannot change its course, but the target can and if they aren’t where he was aiming originally they can’t get hit.

This is another bad attempt to dismiss a feat. Do you know anything about real world RPG's The inaccuracy of them? With travel speed slow enough for humans in the real world to see coming and avoid at times? The fact so many Black Hawk copters avoid them or that in the real world they veer off course after 50 meters? Seems like it in another attempt to dismiss a feat. Like Punisher said, the fire arm expert of the team, the shot was impossible.

Point is this. Hawkeye never misses as he likes to boast, not saying its true, just what he is credited for. even if Bradley can eaily cut down Arrows, and dodge them, it will be hell due to the many factors Clint has. Including insane precision, leading the target, and rapid firing tons of arrows in the span of a second. All this will make dodging a hassle, even if they are arrows, and if Hawkeye uses one good Flash Arrow, its a game changer in favor of Hawkeye.

Point is that you are making the scans out to be more than they are, and trying to attribute higher feats to Hawkeye than he has demonstrated. I have gone through and explained how the context of each scan undermines your claims. As for my defense Bradley’s easiest option is just to slice the arrows as they come at him. Characters FAR slower than him have easily done so, cutting multiple arrows with one swing of the blade. Hawkeye’s explosive and flash arrows look different than normal arrows and his Ultimate Eye should have no problem seeing this and reacting in accordance. Another thing is that in every instance I have seen the explosive, nuke and flash arrows were on a delay, they hit their target and then there is a delay before the arrow explodes/flashes. This means all Bradley has to do is slice through the functional part of the arrow that provides the explosion and it’s a useless hunk of junk. This is well within Bradley’s capability since he can casually dance around bullets and cut a tank shell in half with his blades. The Ultimate Eye allows him to instantly spot the precise point where he would need to slice it and he’s certainly fast enough to do so. The Flash Arrow isn’t so impossible for Bradley to counter as you make it seem.

I disagree, as I posted above. I think you just dont think he should be able to do these things, because of whatever reason.

As for Bradely cutting arrows, what is he going to do when Hawkeye aims them at areas Bradley cannot reach with his sword, or time delayes the arrow before it blows, again staying out of reach to be cut down? Hawkeye is anything but dumb, and he willa adjust on the fly. With his speed and jump feats he can lead Bradley for a chase all day honestly while Miles and Cap have the advantage over Scar and Greedling Thats the truth.

Just because Hawkeye is moving around does not mean that the cover is useless, it still makes his job much, much more difficult. Him jumping isn’t going to get a good view, and depending on the height of the cover he wouldn’t even be able to jump high enough to get a view anyways. His explosive arrows are realistically limited in number and Scar can reform the cover at will so by all means waste all the explosive arrows trying to destroy something that can easily and instantly be put back in place. Once again Cap’s grenades are limited. Scar has been through a war where grenades were used, he understand them and how they work, he can shield himself with alchemy in an instant. Moreover Bradley and Greedling are going to be engaging Cap so he will be plenty busy fighting them off. Cap’s bullets are also limited. With him firing at my group to test them he will deplete his ammo quickly, and Scar can make himself cover to shield from the bullets if he needs to. Alchemy has been shown in the show to be nearly instantaneous, Ed even created a wall to shield him from Gatlin gun fire after it started firing.

Scar can also create a dust cloud between Hawkeye’s position and my team’s to obscure us from Hawkeye’s view, as he has shown the ability before.

Here is a problem, your showing feats of Ed doing something, not Scar, and assuming Scar should be able to do it, or better, if he thinks to do it at all. I still see no reason why Hawkeye cannot get a good view or shot. He has incredible jump, and cover great distance real quick. Or he can angle the Arrows to come from above, that is something he showed with the RPG, and no reason why Arrows which are design for that will not rain death. Same for Cap's grenades which Cap can time perfectly and land with perfect accuracy. Every time Cap toss a grenade, Scar must spend time running or blocking it, at the same time avoiding arrows of death. Im just not seeing this unless Scar dealt with this before.

The whole point is Scar is so far in this whole fight making cover and trying to not get killed which is fine as that gives my team attention to engage in a 3 on 2 match anyway. Bradley is chasing Hawkeye to no avial, and Cap and Miles are double teaming Greedling while Hawkeye and Cap are forcing Scar to hide behind walls.... Thats is what this argument boiled down to.

Miles Again

None of those were impossible to avoid attacks, that is your own embellishment. As I showed earlier in this debate Miles has been tagged plenty of times in close quarters by melee attacks from people slower than Bradley. As I showed earlier Bendis himself, the creator of the character, stated that his Spider-sense does not tell him where the danger is coming from, it is only a general warning that he is in danger. How is Bradley’s counter blatant? The guy can move so fast he can’t be seen by guys who react to bullets after they are fired, Miles has failed to react to opponents far slower.

I countered this already. Its a matter of opinion now. You think Bradley will blitz a being far faster than the foes Bradley faces, with added Web Spam abilities, and a Danger Sense for immediate action. I think its foolish to think Bradley would win a easy fight with Miles, and still have Cap and Hawkeye covering Miles, and Advising him. I will let voters decide there.

Already countered this. Firstly Hawkeye will have to be able to get through the cover and dust cloud obscuring his vision. Secondly If it’s close enough to Bradley that it will affect him he can either look away, or slice it before it goes off rendering it useless. Even if Bradley is facing the other direction fighting he should be able to react. With his back to them when they started firing Bradley was able to dodge rifle fire from 3 Briggs soldiers and kill them in less than a second covering massive ground.

You can't see it in the gif, but if you watch the video it's clear that Bradley is facing Greedling (facing away from the troops) when they open fire. This is also shown in the manga.

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Hawekey can see through the flash of a Nuke. He also sees through a one way mirror glass with no problems. He has stated super human sight and abilities with said sight. Little dust cloud will slow him down?

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Guy keeps numbers of targets in coordinates in his head on the battle field with no need of a range finder, GPS, anything. He is not being fouled by some dust. Fact is Hawkeye is insane good as a marksmen, and the feats I provided in my first few post show this.

You keep saying this but as I’ve said before Hawkeye is going to have his view obscured by cover and a thick dust cloud. Ultimate Cap is going to have his hands full with Greedling if Miles is fighting Bradley. If Ultimate Cap isn’t paying full attention at all times Greedling will gut him. Greedling is fast enough that just glancing away for a second will cost cap dearly. He isn’t going to have time to be watching Miles’ fight and coaching him.

Yes he is very fast, and Miles has shown feats to dodge faster when the plot demands it, as well casually dodge or avoid, or counter even peak human, to well above super human beings in close combat. As I showed. As far countering Hawkeye, if Bradly is focus on Miles who can avoid him for time enough, why does he react to Hawkeye as easy as you claim then? He isnt.

Im am pretty sure Greedling can be simply taken down and held down by Cap to be honest. Greedling cannot compete at all strength wise, and Cap knows and shows take down moves in the comics. If Bradly is after Miles, he can decap Bradley with the shield much like he did Assemble in the above post. Not seeing Bradley react to that when he is facing Miles, and focuses on him. I showed the insane Shield feats Ultimate Cap has as well. he really does not need the Shield at all to fight Greedling, and can happily wait the split second it will take to return.

As for the web spam Bradley should have no problem dodging or cutting through it. His swords have cut through steel and solid stone like butter. Miles jumps over Bradley and then what? Bradley can follow him, he isn’t going to stand there gawking, and Bradley has ridiculous leaping feats of his own that can compare with anything Miles has done. He ran and leapt along falling debris, he’s leapt massive distances in his chase of the tank, when he attacked Greedling, and in his fight with Scar. Bradley has superhuman leaping ability.

Cutting something that covers more than your body in scope? Its a AOE, and the webs are very fast. Im am also pretty sure Badley cannot do anything to Miles if he runs along one of the buildings or uses his webs.

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Here Miles catches and tags Green Goblin on one of his rocket propel super jumps easy. Seriously, Miles is not being run down by Bradley, that is absurd to say the least. Miles jumps are crazy high, over houses high. Add his webbing and wall crawl powers, he can easily avoid Bradley in this battle area.

Miles has a chance, don’t get me wrong, you’ve done a good job debating for him. However his odds aren’t good for all the reasons I’ve already stated. My team has a counter for any situation you’ve mentioned and Bradley has the perfect tools to take Miles out, likely very early.

I agree his odds are not that good, but with help from Hawkeye and Cap in that already establish team work I showed, I see no reason why Miles chances do not go up. Bradley is by far the biggest threat as far as killing my team goes, Greedling is the hardest to put down, but manageable as far as Greedling attacking goes. Scar is very dangerous in attacking, but is worst off in durability and speed. So really Cap and Hawkeye have every opportunity to divide attention to help Miles IMO. Both Cap and Hawkeye have great range options to make helping more plausible.

Already discussed this and why it isn’t such a great counter. Bradley can leap superhuman distances too, he can follow Miles, and Miles does NOT want to turn his back to him. If he needs to Bradley can throw a sword as well, he has shown excellent accuracy in doing so, and he carries five swords standard gear so he won’t miss one should he lose it.

OK accuracy for a peak human, nothing Hawkeye level to say he will tag at all Spider Man by feats of throwing anything at Miles. As shown above, just now, Miles can escape Bradley and close distance with Scar in a flash.

Also are Mile’s webs invisible when he is invisible? I honestly can’t seem to remember, but I’m pretty sure they aren’t so this would be a dead giveaway to Scar about Mile’s location.

Nah, and I never seen Miles use webs in camo at all either. If he is attacked by Greedling or Bradley, the camo is dropped already then anyway.

Well Brian Michael Bendis, Mile’s creator has stated that his Venom Sting is similar to 616 Jessica Drew’s Venom Blast, which we all know is bio-electric.

“There are two powers that are different, both of which you see in this issue. One is the spider-sting. It's a little similar to the venom blast of the Marvel Universe's Spider-Woman, but it's different.”

I wouldn't say them exploding is any conclusive proof that it traveled through them.

616 Peter’s standard webbing is not electricity proof. He has different varieties of webbing and some of them are certainly electricity proof, but as we don’t know what type of webbing he was carrying this is also inconclusive proof that it’s not electrical in nature. The fact is electricity has passed through some varieties of his webbing before, and this call into the question the legitimacy of your defense.

Unlike everyone else who was hit with the Venom Sting Electro didn’t burst into yellow bolts of what is seemingly electric, but instead it was blue, like his energy body. This leads me to believe the bio-electric nature of it could have unbalanced or overloaded his electrical body causing it to backfire like that.

Ultimately I am going to concede to you the point about it being electrical. Although I think your evidence is inconclusive at best I can’t in good conscience say that it is for sure electrical either, so I will grant you that it is threat. That said there it is no way impossible to counter. Even assuming that Miles is going to immediately go to it, which he may not, Greedling is fast enough to keep up, is far more skilled than Miles, and has claws that will shred Miles like newspaper.

All this is shoddy really. Your very "Source" states this. One is the spider-sting. It's a little similar to the venom blast of the Marvel Universe's Spider-Woman, but it's different. Underline important part. Its different. It works in ways Electricity does not. Most of your points is basic attempt to rationalize it. Its not electricity, does not behave like it, and its not stated as it period.

Love the finding of the Bendis commenting though. Thats is cool all in all.

Assuming that Miles can land a venom sting on Greedling I’m still not convinced that it wouldn’t take multiple to put him down. Venom was able to tank multiple Venom stings and Greedling has durability and regeneration on par with Venom, or above.

Which is another thing. I am not sold on the idea that the venom sting would bypass Greedling’s regeneration. The Homunculi regenerative factors are nothing you can compare to healing factors in Marvel. They are powered by a Philospher’s stone at their core. The philosopher stone powers an alchemic reaction that heals them completely and brings them back to life after being killed. Lust was able to regenerate back from being vaporized completely. Gluttony has regenerated from being cut into pieces, decapitated, stabbed in the head, blown up with Scar’s destruction alchemy, Envy has had limbs hacked off and had the flesh burned off his body repeatedly, his eyes vaporized, Sloth was impaled multiple times, and Greed was stabbed, hacked to pieces, and even had his head smashed off with a battle hammer and immediately grew back. The first Greed was killed over 15 times by Bradley and it never got close to using up his regeneration.

Being able to bring someone back from death > being able to bring them back from being paralyzed. You could venom sting Greedling until you’re exhausted and he will just keep coming back until you use up every last life in the philosopher stone (there are thousands). Furthermore the Philosopher Stone has been used to cure paralysis in the show, as exemplified by when Doctor Marcoh used it to cure Jean Havoc.

Venom never runs out of regen, as I showed for Venom feats. Philophiser stones can be burned out easy by Pride tearing Gluttony apart for a few seconds over and over again, something I fail to see with Venom own regen feats. Not seeing that much of a comparison. Also unlike Greedling, Venom powers is healing, that is what it was made to do. Also Venom is able to live crunch up in a watch, can any of your Homunculi state the same? Im sorry, i am not seeing it. Your Homunculi been burned out by attacks, Venom never been burned out or slowed by attacks. Simple as that really.

Cap

My point is that if Nuke could get plenty of hits on Cap, someone faster and similarly skilled like Bradley or Greedling should also be able to. I know there is context to their fights, I just meant to demonstrate someone with speed of the characters on my team should have no trouble landing hits on Cap, and he cannot just block everything they come at him with.

Sure, except Cap also fought other super soldier beings other than Nuke, and embarrass them in a fight.

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Like Abdul who was Caps equal thanks to Loki's reality warping magics. Cap was also injured, and drugged when fighting him.

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Sabertooth who manages to take down Ultimate Wolverine a few times, could not land any blow but a surprise one on Cap.

So, would Bradly nail Cap a few times? Sure, but thanks to Caps feats, skill,a nd minor healing factor, nothing will be fatal, nor slow him down IMO. The real issue here is this is not 3 on 1, this is Cap, Miles, and Hawleye on your team.

In that instance Wolverine just stood there and gave him an easy target. He literally stood still, watched it land on his claws and yet had time to say “Oh crap”. It’s poor writing. I’m sorry but a grenade does not travel nearly fast enough to get past Bradley who has reacted to gunfire after having his back turned to those firing.

This is funny, it suggest Wolverine who was fighting seriously simply could not react to the timing of Cap. You really do try to hard to rationalize things your way. Wolverine trying to kill Fury is just going to stand their and gawk? No. he clearly did not have any way to avoid that perfect precision and timing Cap had with said Grenade.

Are you sure? What exactly makes you think that cutting a grenade in half will set it off? Most modern grenades, including every one I've ever seen Ultimate Cap use are timed. This means that impact will not set them off. If Bradley slices the grenade so that it severs the means of ignition from the explosives the grenade will not go off. He demonstrated the ability to do so when Fu tried to take him down with a suicide bombing.

Grenades are time from a chemical reaction. Not because they have built in electronic timers and will not go till a electrical charge is triggered. It no different than shooting a hand grenade, it will blow up. That is what happens. As for comparing what he did to Fu, thats is nothing like what Cap did to Ultimate Wolverine.

It will marginally help him keep fighting, but Cap isn’t healing back from any of Bradley’s slashes as fast as Bradley will be able to deliver new attacks since every slash will slow Cap more and more. Knife wounds take minutes to heal, gun wounds hours. Cap doesn’t have that kind of time in this fight. True, the shield will come in very handily, but all it takes is one misstep and Bradley will capitalize. This is where his Ultimate Eye predicting Cap’s moves will come in especially handy. Bradley is fast enough to move around the shield, and skilled enough to feint in order to gain an opening. Remember Fu had bullet-dodging feats on par with what Ult. Cap can do and he couldn’t get a scratch on Bradley, while the moment Bradley got a sword in his hands he took Fu down hard.

All this assumes Cap own speed, Skill, and huge impenetrable Shield is not going to block most of these attacks period. He took a back racking from Sabertooth and fought fine. He took Hulk blows and kept going. I showed the hell he been through with Nuke. few lucky stabs is not going to end it, and with a machine gun, grenades, and shield, well cap will have more tools and the better chance. Seriously lets discuss for one second what happens if Cap nails Bradley. Instant death. Bradley cannot tank the blows Cap can and does dish out.

Also Fu has no bullet feats, or timing like I showed in my first post on Cap's own. Not even comparable in anyway IMO.

Yes, he’s inferior to Bradley, and frankly 1 v. 1, so is everyone on your team. Despite his injuries Bradley was still moving at superspeed, as you can see here.

Bradley was also leaping around with superhuman agility. His injuries really didn’t affect him that much in terms of speed and reflexes.

It pretty hard at all to justify Scar is as fast as Bradly on any level, considering his own feats. Clearly Bradly is injured. What else feats does Scar have to otherwise? He is a bullet timer, but Cap is so much more. I think a argument can be made for Ultimate Cap beating bradley one on one myself. His feats, like dispatching the entire ultimate Avenger Roster, while going easy on them to get caught, is proof enough.

The shield bounce is a good thought, but in reality it’s not a very good option for Cap. Let’s assume as you say for a second that he is fighting Greedling 1v. 1 and he uses a shield toss to try and nail Scar or Bradley. First Greedling is going to yell to watch out for it. Second he is going to press the advantage of Steve not having his shield. This means Steve is going to have his hands full trying to avoid Greedling’s attacks and he’s most likely not going to be in the correct position to catch the shield on return, unless he can somehow be in the same place when the shield returns and have a free hand to catch it. The scans you showed all showed Steve taking out fodder with the shield while he was not engaged in any H2H combat himself. This situation is completely different. I don’t think Steve will want to risk losing his shield in this fight. Without it he’s toast against either Greedling or especially Bradley.

Well here is the problem, Steve strength greatly out weighs Greedling. i see no reason for Cap not to simply arm bar or just hand to hand Greedling till the split second for the Shield to return. In most scans the Shield returns faster than Cap can run a few feat if he is throwing it far, and the speed feats for his throws are likewise super fast. not mush of a advantage to press. Greedling attacks, and Cap does a take down.

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he can just grab Greedling fists and hold on. Lock him in a take down. Put his foot on his back, and pin him there. Maybe just simply lock up and no let go, forcing Greedling easily to his knees. Fact is Cap is simply so much stronger. Either way Greedling is not pressing any attack in the time it takes for the Shield return IMO. After all Bradly is chasing Miles, and Hawkeye. Scar is taking cover the whole fight. Why cant Cap hold off Greedling these ways easy?

Furthermore my team (unlike the fodder in those scans) have the tools and reflexes to easily dodge or deflect such an attack. Bradley’s Ultimate Eye can calculate the trajectories and velocities of objects instantly as it demonstrated when it calculated the perfect path for him to run and leap among the falling debris.

Too bad it only works on things he sees, not attacks he cannot see or surprise attacks. Attack from behind will end him.

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Like Assemble.

There is really no indication how durable Assemble is. He didn’t show anything that impressive in the scans shown durability-wise. There is nothing to suggest he is even close to as durable as Thor, Hulk, or Giant-Man. Durability against blunt force is also not the same as durability against slicing. Most characters have far greater durability against blunt force, which explains why Juggernaut empowered Rogue would possibly have trouble. I would have to see her hits on him to be able to make any real kind of educated assessment. Unless you could provide more durability feats for him I don’t see how that effects this battle. Cap’s shield has long defied any kind of laws of physics. It bounces off objects when he wants it to, and it slices through or buries itself in objects when he wants it to. This doesn’t prove any kind of concrete velocity for the shield in this situation.

Oh boy, He showed enough man. Iceman flash froze a whole mansion in seconds, and the Mansion crumbled. That feat is in the same comic. His attacks did nothing to Assemble. Yes he was also in a state of mind where most of his friends just died, so safe to say he was not holding back against a machine made by the man who killed his surrogate family. Like wise Juggernaut decimated multi story buildings, and plowed down ultimate Colossus of all people. Yet Rogue with his powers did nothing. Add to all this Iceman stated his ability thanks to Mystique stating it earlier. All of those examples are proof enough for me when Cap decaps him.

I know Cap can throw the shield fast, but he’s not throwing it fast enough to overwhelm Bradley’s reactions. The guy can cut a tank shell in half with a sword, deflect machinegun fire, and dance around assault rifle bullets casually. At best Ult. Cap’s shield throws have velocity similar to these things, and 2 of those 3 feats were without the Ultimate Eye. With Greedling’s warning there is no reason Bradley shouldn’t be able to react, and he could also hear the sound of the shield ricocheting considering it has been shown to make sound as it bounces off objects. Once he’s caught a glimpse of the shield with the ultimate eye it should no longer pose a threat to him.

Again how is Bradly avoiding a blow he cannot see coming because according to you yourself, he is too busy trying to engage Miles or Hawkeye. He is not. A straight throw, and it is over. Cap has no need to ricochet a killing blow.

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Anymore than he ricochet here.

Bradley states in dialogue that Greed’s ultimate shield is impenetrable. Nothing in the show ever even phased Greedling when his shield was up. Not Bradley’s swords which can cut through steel, not machinegun fire, not explosions, or an RPG, not being hit by a speeding armored troop carrier, or being in the tunnel when it collapsed on him. Furthermore Greed is stated to be the most durable Homonculus with his ultimate shield up, and Sloth was able to shrug off tank fire with no harm so we know tank fire would not harm him either. Like I said before alchemy is the only way to physically get through the shield by changing its molecular structure. Warmachine can be explained by the fact that as a robot there are natural weaknesses in his armor at the joints and Cap capitalized on this in conjunction with his shield and strength to dismember Warmachine's arm. Greedling has no such weakness, no point in his armor is any weaker than the rest.

Yet Cap has fought and harm beings like Warmachine, Juggernaut (twice), Assemble, Hulk, and more. Your feats above < to the durability feats they have. Saying it is impenetrable is NLF argument at best. Cap with his Shield should be able to by pass it IMO. Either way Cap can simply win by pinning Ling, he has no ground fighting skills from what I seen, and Cap can easily overpower and pin for easy win.

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I was a MP for 3 years out of my 7 years in the Navy. There is no way to break from this, or harm Cap at all should he do this basic restraint. Along with half the others I showed, like how he simply pinned Wolverine with his foot on the back. The strength difference is huge, and Cap will use it.

Hawkeye

Hitting a web that can only go in a straight linear motion, and cannot react or change direction is completely different than tagging something with sentient thought process that can react to your projectiles and alter their location to avoid the projectile. Furthermore I already pointed out that they was context to every case you pointed out of Hawkeye tagging people who are supposedly quick enough to bullet-time. Those instances do not apply to this situation.

Except the Web is drawn as fluid not some straight line to shoot. It was also in the dark of night, and Spidey was moving around trying to get away.

This is completely false logic. Firstly Bradley has already deflected machinegun fire with his sword. The standard bullet velocity for a machinegun of that type is around 2,400-2,500 fps. This means Bradley has already proven that he can deflect fire that is just as fast, and just as rapid as anything that Hawkeye can come at him with. I hate to sound like a broken record but it bears repeating. It doesn’t matter how accurate you are if your opponent is fast enough to dodge the bullet after it is fired, or deflect the bullet before it reaches its target. No one you mentioned is “impossible fast” you mentioned a bunch of characters, all of which there was context as to why they couldn't dodge it.

I really see no reason for someone who has demonstrated to be fast enough to deflect machinegun fire and dance around rifle bullets casually to be tagged by bullets that are not moving any faster than those he has faced in the past. Furthermore he can regenerate back instantly from a gunshot wound, he had all his flesh vaporized off and regenerated instantly. Bullets aren’t even going to tickle Greedling, and although Scar cannot dodge in the open for an extended period of time he’s fast enough to react to bullets after they are fired as he has shown on multiple occasions I have already mentioned, and when he dodged an attack with velocity likely higher than that of a tank shell.

Add in the fact hawkeye has to work around the cover and everything my team puts into effect to obscure his view and make his job difficult, and he’s going to have his work cut out for him.

Your totally right on the bullet speed, But my math was saying just that lol. the Bullets are 4 times faster to 5 times faster than arrows, which is what I meant by saying 2400 FPS, I did not mean 4000 FPS. If Hawkeye can hit super speed targets with super speed reactions with arrows, he can easier with bullets. For all the speed to counter a tank shell from a unspecified Steam Punk era tank is not the same as modern day tanks anyway. Still his best High end feat for sure though, but if in average peak humans to slightly above peak humans can react and survive Bradley, I mot seeing the Tank shell being that accurate of a feat, unless Bradley new the shot was coming thanks to his Ultimate Eye already. I hate to sound like a broken record, but Hawkeye power is simply doing this, regardless what you think is illogical, it is what he consistently does as a super human marksmen that does impossible things. Sorry :/

Already covered Hawkeye not being affected by a little dust and such. Wont play a factor really.

I am just trying to use logic and knowledge of physics to try and understand a situation. It seems pretty suspicious that the explosives should be that powerful on their own, and yet the explosion from them going off doesn’t even leave the area of Tony’s “blast” which barely encapsulates Hulk’s head. Sure, I could be wrong, and I’m not banking on this one point to make or break my argument. I am merely trying to understand the inconsistencies displayed in the Ultimate Universe. You yourself said Hulk can take blasts from a Nuke and building destroying blasts, but then 3 explosive arrows that don’t even have a blast radius greater than Hulk’s head do that much damage?

Your trying to apply logic to something that defies logic and physics for that matter? Thats not constructive. Its comics man, you need a little give and take on the logic. From where I am sitting, sounds more like attempts to low ball whether intentional or not.

Sure, those explosive arrows didn’t have a wide blast, but they also didn’t blow apart Hulk’s face, they merely shattered windows. Shattering windows is not something that would require that much explosive power. Clearly Hawkeye packs several different levels of power with his explosive arrows.

Okay, are we sure that those arrows he used against Hulk weren’t these kind of arrows? It would actually make sense possibly then if those arrows that blew away part of Hulk’s face were nuclear yield strength.

Could be nuclear yield, I just know they are shown that three are enough to blow past Hulk's durability.

Okay, you still have to tag my team with them. With a blast radius that small only a direct hit is going to do anything. There is also the fact that every such arrow we have seen has been on a delay, and it’s unlikely it will be nearly as effective on my team as you suggest.

Maybe, maybe not. Again if they have a delay, not sure why Hawkeye with all his super human perception and accuracy cannot time it. Those arrows also easily by pass Hulks skin and into his flesh, the arrow tips must be insane sharp to do so since bullets from mounted machine guns bounce off Hulks skin. Iron Man's best blasts does as well. I can see them sticking to anything they hit, maybe even Greedling ;)

Okay, well Bradley sure isn’t going to be catching the arrow and just holding it there in his hand like Thor did so I’m not sure how it’s going to work on him. He can simply slice the functional part of the arrow as I said rendering it useless, or dodge the arrow. If what you say about it having a limited area of effect is correct it’s not going to be close enough with a miss to effect Bradley. I don’t know how you really expect that tactic to work on a Bradley who is coming after Hawkeye either . Lastly even if Hawkeye manages to get lucky and blind Bradley, and proceeds to riddle Bradley with arrows, it isn’t going to make a difference. Bradley isn’t going to be stopped by a couple arrows, and he can regenerate back from anything Hawkeye can do to him. Hawkeye can hit Bradley with an explosive that vaporizes him and he’s going to regenerate in seconds, and he won’t be blinded anymore.

Hawkeye I am sure is not expecting a man with swords that cut down bullets from Caps first barrage (as we open with) will catch it lol. he will likely land it close to Bradley, the man is far from stupid as I showed. Even if Bradly is coming after Clint, he can land the thing ahead of where Bradley will be. this will force Bradly to stop, or divert anyway if it does not nail him. Im not sure how Bradly regenerates, i watched the show anyway, and not once he showed the same regen the other Homunculi did. Hos own wikis state he has no Regen like the others, and the fact he ages proves this more so. Not sure why your saying he can regen. Where was his Regen when he was fighting and gathering so many wounds in the end?

If the area effect is small enough that they won’t be effected, it likely that my team will have no trouble being outside their effective range as well. My team are fast enough to react to bullets, they are certainly fast enough to react to a thrown grenade. The grenade cannot redirect itself mid-air so they should have no problem getting out of its path.

Your team is so fast, yet they all been hit by Flash bangs by lesser fodder than my team characters. Just saying. I even showed Bradley nailed by such. Pride has been easily many times as well, and others more too. Happens alot to these bullet timers by the Asian characters.

I showed it in my very first post, but I would be happy to repost. As you will see he regenerates from having his flesh burned off instantly. Bradley has regeneration in FMA, but not in FMA: Brotherhood, which is why he doesn’t have regeneration in many of the scans and videos I posted. You agreed to composite versions for my characters.

Watch at 3:15. He regenerates from a charred corpse in seconds.

So the next question then is how does he regen from organ destruction, limbs dismemberment, head decap, brain damage, or being blown apart? Unless he regen from those, not sure why some basic skin growing is a game changer.

Once again he still has to tag them with one of those arrows for it to work.

Once again I think he fully can. Especially with Miles and Cap adding on the pressure, or distractions in the fight.

Final Summary

Over all like you said, this is a close match. Fun to think about, however here is the major things we debated so far.

My team will have general knowledge on some key things, thanks to Cap opening up with his guns, and Hawkeye with his arrows to get a good gauge. Your character meanwhile will know next to nothing of mine till they engage.

My team has more range option whether webbing (Miles), Grenades/guns (Cap), or Arrows/Guns (Hawkeye). My team IMO by feats are better with accuracy with their weapons too.

Bradley is argued to chase Miles, and then maybe Hawkeye. Either way Miles and Hawkeye can play easy keep away from this close combat monster. Cap can match him IMO, but so far it seems steady consensus Wrath is chasing Miles or Hawkeye. That kinda hurts his team if he spends most of the fight running after targets.

Greedling has claws, but thats it. Cap has more going form him, and by feats should pen that armor with shield attacks, or simply restrain him easy. Miles like wise involve after getting away from Bradly will Venom Sting or Web Incap, or both. Hawkeye at Range can take him out possibly with his arrows.

Bradly has some regen, nothing to defend from the trick arrows like the Taser, or Explosive arrows. Cap can take Bradly apart with his shield, or even better punches. Miles still has Web Incap for a likely option, and even if he engage and gets mostly killed, one touch for a Venom Sting will do. Miles lost for whatever reason could as well take your heaviest hitter out.

Scar is really the odd man out. So far all he is doing is making defenses, avoiding all these attacks being popped his way, and he is dealing with beings by Speed feats above himself IMO. He has Shield tosses, Grenades, Trick Arrows, Regular Arrows, and Webbing. Most importantly would likely die quick in close combat with Cap, or KOed by Venom Sting, or a punch from Miles.

Team work, its on my side. i have two strategic geniuses who are use to shouting orders, pitching in on ideas in battle. Miles likewise benefits greatly from this. Your team has one strategic guy who rarely gives orders, and two members who would likely not accept the orders as well as my team would from each other. Its a factor. Your team is working together for the common goal to win, my team is a worked together under fire team.

i think most of my characters have a counter to any of yours, and there stats, powers, and gear gives them so much to work with for possible winning scenarios. This is the core of the debate, and I think my team edges victories more than losing them.

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#39 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: This was a long debate, hope readers enjoy this one. After your final thoughts, we can go to votes.

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#40 Posted by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry it's taking longer than expected. I will have it posted ASAP

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#41 Edited by Lunacyde (27777 posts) - - Show Bio

Miles

While all the characters you mention tag Miles, there is context to all of them. Prowler and Scorpion tagged only a newbie Miles, its like saying Punisher tag early Peter so likely anyone can. Thats not the case. Rhino tagged Miles once through a surprise hit. Venom is every bit as fast as Ultimate Peter, and yet Miles danced around him most of the fights till distracted. So yes, while Bradley or Greedling can indeed tag miles, Miles is still as fast by feats. Skill added to your feats is not really anymore impressive than Miles dancing around prowler when he got serious, or dancing around Batroc who you pointed out tagged Miles a few time, and yet Miles danced around his attacks more. Infact let me really break this down.

Are you suggesting that being new to his powers effects his reaction time? Is there any proof that Mile’s speed and reactions are slower earlier on than they are later in his crime fighting career?

Rhino tagged Miles through a surprise hit? How did Rhino land a surprise hit without Mile’s spider-sense getting him out of the way? You assured me that Mile’s spider-sense would make sure that Bradley and Greedling couldn’t touch him, and yet Rhino was able to do it. Greedling and Bradley are a lot faster and more skilled than Rhino is.

I don’t remember it ever being stated that Ultimate Venom is as fast as Ult. Spider-Man. He is fast enough to tag Peter yes, but his speed and agility are not equal to Peter’s as you suggest.

Prowler and Batroc are not valid examples as A.) Both were able to hit Miles B.) Neither are as fast as Greedling or especially Bradley.

Miles has great speed and reaction in battles or stand alone feats. He is clearly on most Spider men level.

Not saying he doesn’t have great speed and reactions. I never said that he didn’t, just that he has been tagged consistently by people slower and less skilled than the members of my team. Yes, Miles isa Spider-Man and he spends a lot of time dancing around opponents who are slower than him. However he is tagged in almost every single fight, often by someone slower than the members of my team.

Yeah he is charging in, how does this equal to Miles will not react to a attack? It does not. I been in fights, and charged in only to get near kicks to the head, I still react. Your logic of saying Miles is simply unable to counter in a fight is flawed, as long he has the Sense, and Speed to react, he will. Saying things like Miles is confident when Invisible is false as well. Many times invisible he shows caution, because he knows many times that things like sound, debris, ect can and had gave away his position. He also still has the very well shocase Spider Sense I showed in my early post that will alert him to specific dangers in the middle of a fight. I showcased this well earlier, if voters remember in the beggining of post #32.

Look, you are the one who stated that he was charging in, not me. Charging in is not synonymous with being cautious, it just isn’t. It is disingenuous to claim that he is leading the frontal attack, charging in, and somehow being “cautious” at the same time. You showed him being cautious, it involved him tip-toeing around. That is not the situation he has been put in here thanks to his superior Cap. He is charging in at someone, he is invisible; they don’t react to him until so he’s thinking in his mind perhaps they haven’t detected him, and at the last second wham suddenly they move. They move so fast that bullet-timers can’t see them; a quick strike is very likely to catch Miles before he can dodge.

To say his spider-sense will save him is also questionable. His spider-sense didn’t save him from being tagged by Rhino, who is slower than anyone on my team. His spider-sense doesn’t give him the direction the attack is coming from(as I proved in an earlier post both from Brian Bendis’ words, and through the analysis of what actually was happening on panel which you seemed to ignore), just a general idea of being in immediate danger. The danger isn’t necessarily coming at him from the man directly in front of him; it could be from the other guy to his side.

I did not say that Miles will not react to an attack because he is invisible. I said that being invisible creates a small sense of safety which means that mentally he will take just a fraction of a second longer to react to an attack because he will not expect it if the target is acting like they have no idea where Miles is. Giant-Woman was able to grab Miles while he was being exceptionally cautious so I don’t see why someone faster and more skilled, who can predict Mile’s moves wouldn’t be able to do so.

Only with context, and yet Miles feats have shown to hang with Super sonic level foes as well. So I guess your argument is ignore the high ends, and focus on low ends? I see no reason why by Speed feats alone Miles is not fast enough to dodge or react. I see even less reason by his speed feats against other fast beings either.

They aren’t low-end feats when they are consistent. It’s not like I’m cherry picking fights where Miles gets tagged by slower opponents, it happens in pretty much every fight. I am not ignoring any high-end feats. You have yet to show Miles dodge someone who is as fast as Bradley, as skilled, and knows what Miles is going to do before he does it. Show me a high end feat where he dodges someone like that in close quarters combat. Then you have to add in the reach advantage that Bradley’s swords provide, which makes it even more difficult for Miles.

Let me re show what you just said. this is important. "Miles defeats 95% of these “beings he has no business fighting” through the plot device known as his venom sting." That is the point. Miles is skilled enough with experience, he is no master fighter, but his stats make up for that. His power make up for that. His Spider Sense is as good as years of practicing to recognize a attack. Miles strength, and speed make up for hand to hand martial arts. His webbing, Camo, and Venom Sting are simply chessy hax powers that even the most skilled beings cannot deal with. Best part is Miles makes good use of these powers, and proves this time and again fighting beings well ahead of him. Including those with skill.

Okay, you are going in circles. First you tried to say that Miles is skilled because he fights powerful characters and beats them. Then when I point out that he doesn’t beat them through skill, but his magical venom sting and camouflage you say that he doesn’t have to be skilled because his powers and stats make up for it. Which is it? I think we all know that Miles is not a skilled fighter. He has never demonstrated much of anything as far as skill, he leans on his powers as a crutch. Now he’s facing two opponents who negate his camouflage, and will give him a hell of a time trying to take down via venom sting. He’s facing opponents who are roughly in his speed range(Bradley even faster), and strength shouldn’t matter much I this match considering they aren’t going try and wrestle or slug it out with him. They are more experienced, far more skilled, and Bradley can tell what he’s going to do before he does it. The powers that he relies on to win him just about every match are going to be far less effective in this situation than they normally are, as I’ve demonstrated. Miles has simply never fought anyone with the combination of skills, stats, and powers that my team possesses.

You forgot Webbing which no one has a counter too if tagged by it. And Miles has tagged skilled and fast foes like fly by Warmachines, and Task Master after he absorb Spider Speed with it. Web Spam like Miles done twice in his short career makes dodging or countering even harder, then its a Web incap. Greedling and Scar are at a disadvantage against Miles, only Bradly with his swords, Ultimate Eye, and speed has a good shot to win, and even then a well place Web Spam can counter that, or Miles can simply run away from him easy to engage someone else. Your stated yourself Bradley is heading after Hawkeye in your earlier post as well. Healing factors mean little to the Venom Sting or Web incap as well.

I already explained how they do in fact have a counter for webbing. Bradley’s swords can cut through webbing, and so can Greedling’s claws. That is even assuming that they will get tagged. Tagging a random War Machine isn’t that impressive, they don’t have any reaction/combat speed feats to compete with my team. As for Ult. Taskmaster, he had just gotten Spider-speed that fight. If you can say that Miles was slower earlier in his career it stands to reason that Taskmaster as well could not possibly fully utilize his speed after just gaining it moments earlier. As you so proudly stated earlier Ultimate Hawkeye was able to dodge Ultimate Pete’s web spam, and all of my characters are at least as fast by feats as Ult. Hawkeye is. Bradley can swat away machinegun fire with his sword; Mile’s web spam should not likely pose a realistic problem. Scar can block them with his alchemy, destroy the webs with a touch, and dodge bullets. Greedling’s claws can also slice through the webbing.

Don’t misquote me. I said that Bradley would go after Hawkeye ONLY after Miles was taken down for good.

The ONLY TIME Miles stated to forget his powers was early in his career, he had over a year since that last statement to grow up, and grasp his new found powers since then. Cap and Hawkeye shouting help is a major part of team work, and will come into play. Cap and Haweye skill and experience shows this in their own team work in battles. Its a factor.

IIRC he stated twice about forgetting about his powers, once in the Venom fight, and once in the Prowler fight. That is not THE ONLY TIME, it’s TWO times. Furthermore a year still hasn’t made him anywhere comparable to my team in skill or experience, which was why I made the point in the first-place. He’s still a kid who makes mistakes, forgets things, hasn’t mastered his spider-sense, and generally pays less attention.

How could a skilless kid timed Mysterio swing of a weapon with his back turn? The way your downing Miles feats, he should been hit on the head unless his Sense told him exactly when to dodge.

It’s simple. Miles knew Mysterio was behind him because that is where Mysterio was in relation to him when he got thrown. The spider-sense tells him he is in immediate danger and he dodges knowing at this time that Mysterio is coming up behind him with an attack that is an immediate threat. This doesn’t translate to our situation because Mysterio is extremely slow and unskilled compared to everyone on my team, and the attack could com high, it could come low, from the side, it could come from any direction. Mysterio just isn’t comparable speed and agility-wise to either Greedling or Bradley.

Can I see this quote for Miles? I love to see this proof Bendis stated Spider Sense is only detects immediate danger, because that is not how it works at all for 616 Spider Man, Silk, or other Spider characters lol. So where is this quote for Ultimate Miles?

Sorry, but you’re not debating for 616 Spider-man, Silk, or any other spider character. Every different Spider character except maybe Ben Reilly and Peter (because they’re clones) have had different levels of Spider-sense. If you want to read the quote nothing is stopping you. I linked the interview where it was found, and provided the specific quote for you. If you want to ignore it because you have no argument that’s fine by me, I did my part in providing the quote and link for you.

It clearly shows in the scan his Spider Sense going off with bullets flying all around the Triskleion, and specifically shows the Hydra Agent above him when it goes off. Very specific.

Please look at the scan you provided and feel free to point out any bullets in that scan. There are none. Once again you argue for something that clearly isn’t even there in a scan you provided. Secondly as I stated before, his spider-sense only goes off when there is an imminent threat to his life. Bullets flying through the air 30+ feet away are not an imminent threat. The only imminent threat in that scan is the guy standing directly above him. That is why his spider-sense is triggered by the guy standing above him. Yes, his spider-sense is specific in that it only tells him when he’s in immediate danger. However it does not tell him which direction the danger is coming from, and it does not pick out one imminent threat as being more important than another imminent threat.

Heck you want to claim how slow and skilless the kid is, yet these Nick Fury trained Hydra guys cannot tag Miles at all even though they surround him, his Spider Sense must been picking up the slack since Miles is according to you "Slow" and "Skilless". Seems your contradicted alot here. Is he slow and skilless? Meaning Spider Sense picking up the slack? Maybe he has skill and super speed but no useful Spider Sense? Or maybe he has all three, and like most people, you do not want to accept that because Miles is not 616 Peter

Please, I have never stated that Miles is slow. You are letting your emotions get the best of you. I simply have stated that in melee combat people far slower than my team members have had a pretty consistent time being able to tag him. I agree Miles is very fast by all standards. He’s the second fastest person here behind Bradley, but he also certainly isn’t so fast that my team members can’t react to him. As for him being unskilled, yes I have said that, and I stand by it because it’s factually correct. Skill has nothing to do with the reason the Hydra Agents can’t hit him. He’s simply too fast to be tagged by largely featless fodder with normal human stats. He can react to bullets so there is no reason he should have any trouble dodging fire from nameless hydra troops. That is all it is. It doesn’t prove that he’s largely skilled, or that his spider-sense is anything more than a general danger alarm. You seem incapable of understanding or accepting that dodging projectiles and going untouched in a melee fight are two completely different situations.

Here. As seen. Miles still feels venom is a threat, and yet his snese has the cops all around yelling to arrest him, with guns drawn, yet the Spider Sense clearly warns Miles specifically of his dad being taken away as the panel shows, and then his spider Sense again warns him of the specific threat of the cops about to fire. Not that hard to see, nor understand why the crop was not fine by itself.

The crop is questionable because you cannot see what is happening in the rest of the page, it’s incomplete, and vital information and context can be lost. Is it possible that there is something in that missing panel that is triggering Miles’ spider-sense? I’m just curious why someone would crop such a scan, unless it was to hide something that they didn’t want to be seen. The spider-sense should not go off because of his dad; it is a warning system that tells him when he is immediate danger, not anything to do with anyone else.

He was again in a a battlefield with explosion, bullets, and enemies everywhere, where his suppose "general" sense would been ringing non stop. How is it he knew just then only to dodge a possible attack? Unless it is more than "general" as Miles nay sayers like to claim. He knew exactly when to jump in perfect timing away from the gun fire.

Yet again, no his spider-sense only alerts him when he is in immediate danger. Explosions and bullets elsewhere in a battlefield are not an immediate threat to him so they wouldn’t register at all. Secondly prior to the attack which he dodged there were no bullets anywhere in the scan, and the only explosions you can see are on the ground, likely over a mile away. Frankly I’m growing weary of you trying to force your own head-canon into these debates. Anyone who simply looks at the scans you provided should be able to discern that you are making things up. It’s quite simple, the spider-sense tells him he’s in danger, he immediately jumps to avoid the danger. He knows the two Warmachines are trailing him so he already knows what direction the attack will be coming from, and due to knowing what Warmachines are and likely hearing the guns going off he would also be able to understand the danger is them shooting at him. Once again, dodging projectile attacks does not equate to melee attacks, especially in comics batman, Snake-Eyes, Daredevil, Elektra can all dodge bullets all day, but get tagged regularly in melee fights against skilled opponents.

Miles was dodging all this inside the Fantastic Four head quarters. Busting out only after already being fired on. Also please let me know how easy it is to avoid attack when rope swinging, because it is not. it is more impressive speed wise and reaction wise than anything you shown for your characters truth be told.

The evidence YOU provided showed him inside for one panel, and then 4 panels outside. Furthermore I have scans of Snake-Eyes doing pretty much the exact same thing.

No Caption Provided

I think we all agree that Snake-Eyes is not faster than Bradley, and he doesn’t even have a spider-sense. I think deflecting each individual bullet of machinegun fire with a sword is more impressive reactions frankly, and killing at least 5 soldiers before the glass from the window he ran through hit the ground, while avoiding being hit by any of the glass is a better speed feat.

Glad to see that, too bad it Im not arguing it being like that. It is not a metal detector, nor a map finder like 616 Peter, but it still detects danger, and it gives Miles forewarning to specific attacks in a pretty detail way. As I shown. So lets say your characters are going to stab Miles while he charges in. That pretty immediate, and he will sense that to avoid it. it is exactly how Bendis states it here, and supported by feats.

It is not detailed in the way that you are trying to make it sound. You are trying to say the spider-sense tells which direction the attack is coming from and what kind of attack it is when it has been specifically stated that this is not the case. He specifically says that Miles has to know where the attack is coming from; the spider-sense does not tell him that. For the last time, Miles’ spider-sense only tells him he is immediate danger, that is it. It doesn’t give him any details, he has to figure out the rest on his own. This is what is stated by the creator of the character, and displayed through his fights. So Miles is charging in, a split second before my guy attacks the spider-sense goes off. At this point Miles will try to dodge. However it’s not guaranteed he will be able to dodge the attack. Quite frankly I don’t think he’s ever dodged a melee attack with the speed a strike from Bradley would have. We have seen Bradley move so fast bullet-timer’s couldn’t even perceive his movement. He has never faced someone who will know what he’s going to do before he does it either. Furthermore despite his spider-sense Miles as I have shown has been tagged by slower people. Greedling by feats is faster than just about anyone Miles has faced. We have seen him keep up with Bradley, toss around Ed whose a bullet-timer, and move so fast from one side of the courtyard to the other it almost appeared he teleported. Yes the spider-sense will go off, yes he will attempt to dodge, but the odds are it will be too late and he won’t be able to avoid the attack.

How else does a "skilles" kid by your own admission dodge attacks in close combat with beings like Venom, Prowler, Batroc, Scorpion, and more? The Spider Sense. It works with range and Close Combat.

I would definitely say the fact that Miles is faster and more agile than any of the characters you named certainly has something to do with it. The spider-sense gives him a split second warning its coming and his natural reflex and speed advantage do the rest. However that does him little good here because my team members are faster and more skilled than anyone you just named. I never said that it doesn’t work in close combat, just that him having it doesn’t guarantee he can dodge an attack. He’s been tagged in close quarters by slower characters.

So many examples of a skilless kid countering close combat attacks, as well close combat mixed with range thanks to his Spider Sense and Spider Speed combo.

None of which are as fast or skilled as my team members. The fact is that you have failed to prove that the spider-sense does anything more than tell him that he is in immediate danger, and failed to prove he can dodge an attack from someone as fast and skilled as Greedling, or Bradley who also knows what he is going to do before he does it.

Heck in his fight against Goblin, he owned the same monster that hand to hand wise tagged, and wrecked peter all the time. Goblin not only had blood drawn from him, something Peter could not do, but only physically nailed Miles twice in the close combat fight.

We both know the major reason Miles did better than Peter was his invisibility and venom sting. Without them Miles would have ended up getting wrecked too. I don’t see how this really applies though because by feats my characters are both faster and far more skilled than Ultimate Peter or Ultimate Green Goblin.

Miles is not some easy target to be dispatch here, and while lacking formal train hand to hand skill, Miles makes up for this with hax powers, and years experience of using said powers on foes far greater tier than being used here. He can pull wins, and with the help of Cap and Hawkeye thanks to the team work my team specifically shares, will pull wins more often than not.

Never said he was an easy target to dispatch, you’re twisting my words. What I said is that a combination of factors and circumstances here makes it more likely than not that my team could land a crushing blow early in the fight and take him down early. His hax powers are rendered far less effective in this fight as I have shown. He has years of experience? By the way you say that you make it sound like many years. Tell me if I’m wrong here, but he’s only had his powers about 2 years correct? None of the foes he has faced have had the same combination of speed, skill, and powers that my team brings to the table. He can pull wins, but the odds are stacked against him. There is no way he should be able to take a majority, and I’ve already explained multiple reasons why and how Hawkeye and Cap will not be major factors in Miles’ fighting.

Hawkeye Side Discussion

Here is what I feel about Peter's webbing.

I mean the guy guy tagged and ended multiple peak humans with web hits. They travel great distance in the panels in what seems a instant. How does fluidy glue with hardly no weight travel 50 meters lets say, faster than a normal human can see, or no effect from gravity on Spider Man for that matter? For weightless fluid to travel at that speed would require insane speed.

Same webshotters Miles uses are Peter's. We see his webbing by panel look as fast as the 5.56 bullets in M-4s are traveling. We see him snatch a super sonic Warmachine in the air with a light trail behind it. We see his webs catch a falling dump truck. Whats impressive about this feat is the time it would take in a split second to spin enough webbing into that big of a net.

So i have no solid proof, just good reason to think these webs are close to average bullet speeds if not as fast. Base on the speed needed to project as fast this super glue formula can go in the distance it can go, well that right there is insane fast.

I will agree that the webbing is fast, no doubt. However I don’t see anything you said putting it at near bullet speeds. I would say that in my opinion it’s likely similar to arrow speeds, which again are fast, but not bullet fast. You yourself admit that you have no proof of your claim, I don’t think anything else needs to be said on the subject.

She was still nailed with the insane speed Toad shown in the comics, and leaping away at great distances. Even the SHIELD agent thought it was a impossible shot due to her power set at the time, and how much distance she was putting between them.

Yes, it’s an impressive accuracy shot, but it means nothing to this fight because in the context of your argument you said it proved that Hawkeye could hit targets who are bullet-timers who are trying to avoid being hit. This does not prove that. This proves that Hawkeye can hit things that are moving fast, but not actively reacting to, or trying to dodge his projectiles.

You mean how the scan clearly shows Widow already out of the bed and running before being tagged, and the fact Widow is a casual Bullet Timer that Hawkeye stated before he has trouble keeping up with cause she is so fast? Nothing is ignored, she dodges Bullets easily, and has faster than human perception. She was till nailed by 400 FPS arrows with no hope to dodge. By feats she should honestly be fully able to smack them out of the air, not with Hawkeye for wahtever reason. Good feats of BS skill.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? In the first panel of the scan you provided Widow is sitting in a hospital bed and the covers are being thrown off as if she is just then attempting to get out of the bed. At this point Hawkeye already has the bow pulled back and ready to release. Nowhere in your scan does Widow run at all. Nowhere in your scan does she even leave the hospital bed. Anyone with eyes and a brain can see this for themselves. I don’t know why you would blatantly lie YET AGAIN about something that is right there for everyone to see. You are ignoring the fact that she was injured and in a hospital bed. Without any question whatsoever you are clearly and inexcusably lying that she was out of the bed and running before Hawkeye even shot at her. The visual evidence proves that it is not even possible to argue otherwise.

Yeah shooting the web trail that is traveling in motion (yes in motion because Spidey is not yanking on it yet, and its not taunt to show it stop traveling) the size of my thumb, in the dark, from a casual bullet timer is impressive. Not sure how you can attempt to say its not impressive.....

I’m not saying it isn’t impressive. I am saying that it is not what you said it was. You said that it was akin to shooting bullets out of the air, which it isn’t. It’s an impressive shot no doubt, but once again you are trying to embellish what he is capable of. Frankly after what you just pulled blatantly lying about something that is right in front of us I can’t trust anything you say.

Yet this crap happens ALL THE TIME in comics. Your going to apply science now? How is it possible to draw a bow string back and release a arrow one behind the other like Hawkeye can? How can you tag a 100+ mph target that is 1/4 a mile away with a RPG? How the sweaty sex monkey can you kill full body armor soldiers with fingernail on your hand? How is it possible Hawkeye with a machine gun blow up a Warmachine design by Anthony Stark?

So your argument is that Hawkeye can tag my characters who can easily dodge projectiles over 5x faster than arrows with arrows because of…..magic? I understand that comic physics are different to a degree than real life physics, but you’re being ridiculous. By your logic he could tag the Flash. Look, Bullseye can kill people with toothpicks, his teeth, and playing cards, and yet Daredevil can still dodge him. Your argument isn’t an argument at all. You can’t ignore the fact that no matter who is firing it an arrow is not going to his a Bradley or Scar who are actively trying to dodge it. Are you saying somehow their reactions are effected by Hawkeye? If not then you must admit that I am right. If the projectile isn’t moving faster and my characters are not reacting slower then how the heck does the projectile hit them? You can’t power your argument on pure wishful thinking.

This is what Hawkeye can do with his skill/power/whatever. That is what he does consistently. Trying to apply science to the feats is not a way to go. I already showed proof of Hawkeye nailing several bullet timers that for whatever reason could not react to his arrows. It is consistent. Simple as that.

There is context behind every single scan you showed of “bullet-timers” being tagged by Hawkeye. Rogue was running away, not even looking at the arrow, not even knowing it was shot at her so how was she supposed to react to it? Widow was in a hospital bed injured when Hawkeye shot her, and shooting webs, although impressive means nothing towards proving you can tag a being actively reacting to the projectile. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but webs cannot react to outside stimuli. Therefore you have zero proof that somehow your arrows should magically be impossible to react to.

The same beings were tagged by plenty of bullets in the first scan so I don’t see how tagging them is a feat, especially considering you are right their attention was elsewhere, they didn’t even see the arrows coming.

Tagged by Black Widow 2 from a rapid fire volley from her own marksmanship, and then fully had time to react to the arrows from HE, who was standing further back. If they can move faster than Spider Woman, there is no argument to simply downplay as "they were sneak attack" when the attack came in front of their eye. HE was standing in front of them. They could not dodge as easily they could react and out speed Spider Woman. Period.

Speed and reactions are not the same. Just because you can run a world record 100 meter dash doesn’t mean you have world class reactions. That alone shoots down your argument. Then we take into account that her saying they are fast does not mean that they are as fast as her. She literally says, not fast enough. This dialogue doesn’t even come close to proving they are even as fast as her, let alone the fact it doesn’t discuss reflexes at all. The fact they didn’t even come close to dodging bullets from Widow suggest that their reactions are nowhere near “bullet-timer” level. Then we must also consider the fact that they were focused on Widow and Fury, and there is no poof whatsoever they saw the arrows coming.

This feat actually is possible though because Ghost Rider was not altering his course to avoid the RPG. Given Ult. Clint’s accuracy this one is totally possible. What would not be possible is Clint firing the RPG, Ghost Rider seeing it and making a 90 degree turn to the right and the RPG still hitting him. This is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Once the projectile is fired it cannot change its course, but the target can and if they aren’t where he was aiming originally they can’t get hit.

This is another bad attempt to dismiss a feat. Do you know anything about real world RPG's The inaccuracy of them? With travel speed slow enough for humans in the real world to see coming and avoid at times? The fact so many Black Hawk copters avoid them or that in the real world they veer off course after 50 meters? Seems like it in another attempt to dismiss a feat. Like Punisher said, the fire arm expert of the team, the shot was impossible.

You clearly aren’t listening to me, or you’re just incapable of understanding simple concepts. I am not calling the accuracy of the feat into question. I am not even calling the feat into question, nor am I dismissing it. You are ignoring one important fact that makes everything you are saying invalid. GHOST RIDER DOES NOT ONCE SEE OR REACT TO THE RPG. Therefore the feat is not applicable to trying to prove that he can hit someone actively trying to dodge the projectile.

I disagree, as I posted above. I think you just dont think he should be able to do these things, because of whatever reason.

I never once said he wasn’t capable of doing what he does on panel. I am calling into question how you are using it in your argument. None of your claims are backed up by your own evidence. I agree that Hawkeye never misses a shot in the same way that Bullseye never misses a shot. This does not mean that someone fast enough cannot react to his projectiles. You are trying to attribute things to Hawkeye that are not demonstrated by the evidence, by flat out being deceitful about what is going on in the scan and how it translates to this fight.

As for Bradely cutting arrows, what is he going to do when Hawkeye aims them at areas Bradley cannot reach with his sword, or time delayes the arrow before it blows, again staying out of reach to be cut down? Hawkeye is anything but dumb, and he willa adjust on the fly. With his speed and jump feats he can lead Bradley for a chase all day honestly while Miles and Cap have the advantage over Scar and Greedling Thats the truth.

If Bradley can’t reach an arrow with his swords, then how is it a threat to him? If the arrow is fired far enough away from Bradley that he can’t reach it with his sword it’s simply not close enough to hurt him. The average man’s arms are a little over 2 feet long, and then add another 3 feet or so of sword and you will see that at its very closest point to Bradley such an arrow would have to be farther than 5 feet away from him. Once it passes by him that distance increases greatly. That is outside the effective range for a flash-bang in an open environment, and outside the explosive range of the explosive arrows you yourself posted. What is a time-delay going to do other than give Bradley more time to move away from the arrow? The fact is that Hawkeye is not nearly as fast or agile as Bradley. He has nothing that Bradley cannot react to, and he is terribly mismatched once it becomes a close-quarters fight.

Here is a problem, your showing feats of Ed doing something, not Scar, and assuming Scar should be able to do it, or better, if he thinks to do it at all. I still see no reason why Hawkeye cannot get a good view or shot. He has incredible jump, and cover great distance real quick. Or he can angle the Arrows to come from above, that is something he showed with the RPG, and no reason why Arrows which are design for that will not rain death. Same for Cap's grenades which Cap can time perfectly and land with perfect accuracy. Every time Cap toss a grenade, Scar must spend time running or blocking it, at the same time avoiding arrows of death. Im just not seeing this unless Scar dealt with this before.

First of all I have already shown proof that Scar is actually faster than Ed was at that point. Secondly you want proof that Scar’s alchemy is just as fast as Ed’s? Fine, Scar was able to summon spikes from the ground to protect him from Bradley’s attack in an instant, fast enough to tag a blitzing Bradley at point blank range. The point remains, he can create cover nearly instantly.

No matter how much Hawkeye runs and jumps around it isn’t going to negate my cover, and even if he gets around it Scar can make more in an instant.

Sure Hawkeye can shoot arrows up so they come down at an angle, but he still can’t see his target to make the shot anyways, and he’d run the risk of hitting his own teammates with such a tactic.

As for Cap’s grenades it doesn’t take much effort at all to create the cover, and running a small distance to dodge a grenade isn’t that taxing to someone with Scar’s stats. Besides, Cap has a very limited amount of grenades, he’d use them up remarkably fast if he’s just tossing them around like you suggest. Grenades are exceptionally slow to someone with the reflexes Scar possesses, and he won’t have to dodge the arrows, he can make a construct to block them in an instant. Cap is going o have his hands full engaged in H2H combat so I’m not sure where he is going to have time to be lobbing grenades at other characters either.

The whole point is Scar is so far in this whole fight making cover and trying to not get killed which is fine as that gives my team attention to engage in a 3 on 2 match anyway. Bradley is chasing Hawkeye to no avial, and Cap and Miles are double teaming Greedling while Hawkeye and Cap are forcing Scar to hide behind walls.... Thats is what this argument boiled down to.

No, it’s a 2 v. 2 match because just like Scar is not engaging in the close quarters fight, neither is Hawkeye. Also I never said the only thing Scar is doing is making cover and dodging, I said that is his primary objective. I did mention him however using his alchemy at range to keep Hawkeye off balance as well and even using it against Cap or Miles if the opportunity presents itself. Bradley is not chasing Hawkeye, you seem to have reading comprehension problems. I specifically said that Bradley would go after Hawkeye only after Miles was taken out of the match. At that point I said Greedling and Scar could double team Cap for the victory and Hawkeye would fall to Bradley who greatly outmatches him in close range, and Bradley is certainly fast enough to close the distance and make it a close quarters match.

Miles Again

I countered this already. Its a matter of opinion now. You think Bradley will blitz a being far faster than the foes Bradley faces, with added Web Spam abilities, and a Danger Sense for immediate action. I think its foolish to think Bradley would win a easy fight with Miles, and still have Cap and Hawkeye covering Miles, and Advising him. I will let voters decide there.

Miles is not far faster than Greedling, Scar, Lan Fan or Fu. I have already demonstrated dozens of speed feats for them that are impressive enough to say Miles certainly isn’t leagues above them. Many of them move so fast it almost appears as if they’re teleporting. I also said that the situation is part of the reason I see Bradley tagging him with a hit. I explained a series of factors I believe leads to Bradley having the advantage, so you are purposely trying to misconstrue my argument, and the fact remains people FAR slower than Bradley have landed hits on Miles in situations that were more favorable to him. Bradley has moved so fast that people who can react to bullets didn’t even realize he had moved. This is a far greater speed feat than anything dozens of character who have landed hits on Miles can show. You’re also ignoring the fact that Bradley’s Ultimate Eye will tell Bradley what Miles is going to do before he does it. Lastly I am not saying that Bradley will blitz him and there is nothing Miles can do about it because he can’t perceive it. I am saying that he will attempt to dodge because of his impressive speed and reflexes coupled with spider-sense, but he just won’t be fast enough to make it all the way out of the reach of Bradley’s blade.

Hawekey can see through the flash of a Nuke. He also sees through a one way mirror glass with no problems. He has stated super human sight and abilities with said sight. Little dust cloud will slow him down?

Do you have an example of him seeing through something similar to a dust cloud? The flash from a nuke and a one-way mirror aren’t exactly the same thing as seeing through a thick dust cloud. It’s a pretty big reach to assume one would apply to the other.

Guy keeps numbers of targets in coordinates in his head on the battle field with no need of a range finder, GPS, anything. He is not being fouled by some dust. Fact is Hawkeye is insane good as a marksmen, and the feats I provided in my first few post show this.

I don’t know how many times I have to say this…I am not saying Hawkeye isn’t a great, even one of the best, marksmen in fiction. However you are attributing him with abilities he has never demonstrated just because he does some insane stuff. You have no proof he can see through a large dust cloud, and him keeping track of coordinates in his head doesn’t matter, the targets are in constant motion. There is no evidence to suggest he should be able to see through it, or hit targets on the other side of it that are fighting and in constant motion. Him being an insane marksman doesn’t give you a blank check to make whatever claim you want to with no evidence.

Im am pretty sure Greedling can be simply taken down and held down by Cap to be honest. Greedling cannot compete at all strength wise, and Cap knows and shows take down moves in the comics. If Bradly is after Miles, he can decap Bradley with the shield much like he did Assemble in the above post. Not seeing Bradley react to that when he is facing Miles, and focuses on him. I showed the insane Shield feats Ultimate Cap has as well. he really does not need the Shield at all to fight Greedling, and can happily wait the split second it will take to return.

Greedling is not as strong as Cap, this is true, but he’s certainly no weakling. He is able to crush stone and rend steel with his bare hands. When he was fighting Gluttony in the dark he punched Gluttony so hard it sent him flying head over heels a good 20+feet and then he was still moving with enough force to bulldoze over a tree. Any way you look at it that’s impressive strength.

Bradley was able to react to gunfire after it was fired when he was looking at someone else, he should be able to dodge the shield as well. How is Cap even going to throw the shield when Greedling is attacking him? He’s going to be busy dodging or blocking Greedling’s attacks. Cap can’t focus on his shield and Greedling at the same time. Every time he has been shown throwing the shield in the scans you provided he wasn’t engaged in a H2H fight with a valid threat. Not that it matters, even if he got lucky and was able to decapitate Bradley (which is highly unlikely) Bradley would regenerate right back from that.

Cutting something that covers more than your body in scope? Its a AOE, and the webs are very fast. Im am also pretty sure Badley cannot do anything to Miles if he runs along one of the buildings or uses his webs.

Firstly its simple, it’s just like cutting a net, and Bradley is fast enough to deflect machinegun fire with a sword and land multiple slashes so fast it didn’t even look like he moved. That is fast enough to make multiple slashes and cut the web spam to ribbons. If it’s as impossible to counter as you say he would use it more often in fights, yet he rarely uses it to any effect except against fodder. You said that Miles would be rushing in leading the attack against my team, that means this will be taking place in the center of the battlefield away from the buildings, so I don’t really see how that applies here. You already agreed you were attacking which means bringing the fight to me, on my terms, where my team is. Even the tallest buildings around the very outside of the battlefield are only a couple stories tall and not particularly optimal for webslinging. If Miles wants to run away from Bradley that’s fine, he’s just prolonging the inevitable. If he runs too far away Bradley can then switch over to 2 v. 1 against Cap and Greedling can use the dragon’s pulse to make sure Miles doesn’t sneak attack cheap shot them. It’s really not ideal for your team for Miles to abandon the battle and give my team a numbers advantage.

Here Miles catches and tags Green Goblin on one of his rocket propel super jumps easy. Seriously, Miles is not being run down by Bradley, that is absurd to say the least. Miles jumps are crazy high, over houses high. Add his webbing and wall crawl powers, he can easily avoid Bradley in this battle area.

Green Goblin goes up into the air and then is coming back down when Miles catches him. He also catches him by web slinging, not leaping. As I said earlier the area of this battle isn’t nearly as conducive to gaining speed via web slinging. And if Miles runs off web slinging that puts your team at a distinct disadvantage.

King Bradley has crazy leaping feats as well. He leapt likely 30+ meters in one bound from the place where the tank explosion exploded in the tunnel to the point where he plunges his sword into the viewport of the tank. He crossed half the courtyard in a single leap fighting Greedling. In his fight with Scar while injured he was still leaping from one side of the room to the other, and jumping high enough to touch the ceiling with ease. Bradley was agile enough to leap along falling debris to save himself from death, he is far faster and more agile than you are giving him credit for.

I agree his odds are not that good, but with help from Hawkeye and Cap in that already establish team work I showed, I see no reason why Miles chances do not go up. Bradley is by far the biggest threat as far as killing my team goes, Greedling is the hardest to put down, but manageable as far as Greedling attacking goes. Scar is very dangerous in attacking, but is worst off in durability and speed. So really Cap and Hawkeye have every opportunity to divide attention to help Miles IMO. Both Cap and Hawkeye have great range options to make helping more plausible.

I’ve already explained a dozen times why they’re going to have their hands full and have trouble seeing Miles, so they won’t be nearly the help you are trying to suggest. Cap will have his hands full fighting one of my guys at close range, and Hawkeye will be kept on his toes by Scar’s ranged attacks he will have to dodge. They have a very large area of effect so it will take all of Hawkeye’s ability to do so, coupled with cover and dust clouds to obscure his view meaning he won’t be able to coach Miles.You said that Cap is charging in and engaging my team right off the bat. That means he’s fighting close quarters against either Bradley or Greedling, I don’t see what range is going to help him in a close quarters fight. Scar is lending a hand via his ranged alchemy as well when he can, so you have to account for that.

OK accuracy for a peak human, nothing Hawkeye level to say he will tag at all Spider Man by feats of throwing anything at Miles. As shown above, just now, Miles can escape Bradley and close distance with Scar in a flash.

How is he escaping Bradley? I’ve already shown Bradley leaping distances comparable to Miles. Miles jumps, Bradley throws his sword and jumps, Miles has to alter his course in order to avoid the sword, Bradley catches him, and assuming he stays invisible the whole time (which he doesn’t often do in battles and he would probably abandon once he realized the members of my team aren’t fooled by his camouflage) Scar can see any webs he shoots, or Bradley can warn him, and as we’ve seen people without any enhanced senses like Giant-Woman have been able to spot Miles while invisible and react to him. There is just no way in this environment that Miles is leaving Bradley behind. Bradley is every bit as fast as he is, and has great leaping and agility feats.

Nah, and I never seen Miles use webs in camo at all either. If he is attacked by Greedling or Bradley, the camo is dropped already then anyway.

Okay, this is what I assumed. Given this it’s even harder for Miles to take Scar because although he’s not quite as fast as Bradley, Scar is very fast, can deal out a lot of damage via both destruction blasts and constructs, and like Miles he has a move that can usually take out most opponents in one touch. He’s a far more skilled fighter than Miles and unlike Miles he’s been shown to analyze his opponents’ style and pick up on any weaknesses in their technique.

All this is shoddy really. Your very "Source" states this. One is the spider-sting. It's a little similar to the venom blast of the Marvel Universe's Spider-Woman, but it's different. Underline important part. Its different. It works in ways Electricity does not. Most of your points is basic attempt to rationalize it. Its not electricity, does not behave like it, and its not stated as it period.

Just trying to bring everything we know together and make sense of it. Yes, we never may know what Bendis meant was similar and what he meant was different. I would argue that to say it’s similar would mean on its most basic level of what it is (a bio-electric attack) it is similar, but how it is used and dispersed is what is different, but I full well acknowledge that there is no solid proof of this. I already said that the evidence is inconclusive and granted you the point that for the sake of this debate it should be considered non-electrical in nature, despite it behaving very much like electricity on most occasions with a few discrepancies.

Being able to bring someone back from death > being able to bring them back from being paralyzed. You could venom sting Greedling until you’re exhausted and he will just keep coming back until you use up every last life in the philosopher stone (there are thousands). Furthermore the Philosopher Stone has been used to cure paralysis in the show, as exemplified by when Doctor Marcoh used it to cure Jean Havoc.

Venom never runs out of regen, as I showed for Venom feats. Philophiser stones can be burned out easy by Pride tearing Gluttony apart for a few seconds over and over again, something I fail to see with Venom own regen feats. Not seeing that much of a comparison. Also unlike Greedling, Venom powers is healing, that is what it was made to do. Also Venom is able to live crunch up in a watch, can any of your Homunculi state the same? Im sorry, i am not seeing it. Your Homunculi been burned out by attacks, Venom never been burned out or slowed by attacks. Simple as that really.

1. Pride never tore Gluttony apart for a few seconds. I am not sure what you are talking about. Pride consumed Gluttony and added the power of his philosopher stone to Pride’s own giving him more lives, and Gluttony’s characteristics like his superhuman sense of smell and ravenous hunger.

2. The problem is that you are conflating two separate aspects of their healing factors. Yes, the Venom suit does not have a limit to the number of times it can heal like the homunculi do. However the power of the venom suit to regenerate does not have nearly as many feats as the homunculi do. The homunculi have regenerated from decapitations, dismembering, being burnt down to a charred corpse, being sliced into little pieces, snapped necks, and being vaporized among other things. When has venom ever regenerated from being decapitated or vaporized? There are thousands of lives in Greedling and Bradley’s philosopher stones; it is going to take a long time to burn through them all.

3. Homonculi are made to be able to regenerate from being vaporized so I am not sure what Venom being created to repair tissue has to do with making venom superior to a homunculus.

4. Venom has never been slowed down or burned out by attacks? Maybe not permanently, but those powerlines sure seemed to do a number on Venom. In that very same situation a homunculus would have died and then been regenerated good as new in seconds.

Cap

My point is that if Nuke could get plenty of hits on Cap, someone faster and similarly skilled like Bradley or Greedling should also be able to. I know there is context to their fights, I just meant to demonstrate someone with speed of the characters on my team should have no trouble landing hits on Cap, and he cannot just block everything they come at him with.

Sure, except Cap also fought other super soldier beings other than Nuke, and embarrass them in a fight.

Like Abdul who was Caps equal thanks to Loki's reality warping magics. Cap was also injured, and drugged when fighting him.

Abdul is neither nearly as fast, nor as skilled as Bradley, nor does he have the Ultimate Eye. Abdul is a character with few feats and little to demonstrate his ability.

Sabertooth who manages to take down Ultimate Wolverine a few times, could not land any blow but a surprise one on Cap.

Once again, by feats not as fast, nor as skilled as Bradley, and doesn’t have the Ultimate Eye.

So, would Bradly nail Cap a few times? Sure, but thanks to Caps feats, skill,a nd minor healing factor, nothing will be fatal, nor slow him down IMO. The real issue here is this is not 3 on 1, this is Cap, Miles, and Hawleye on your team.

Cap’s healing factor is going to take a while to heal the damage Bradley does. A knife would from a normal man is stated to healing in minutes, bullet wounds in an hour. Bradley’s swords are going to do damage more extensive than knives, and likely more extensive than a typical bullet. I am not sure where I ever stated this was 3 v. 1, this comment confuses me.

This is funny, it suggest Wolverine who was fighting seriously simply could not react to the timing of Cap. You really do try to hard to rationalize things your way. Wolverine trying to kill Fury is just going to stand their and gawk? No. he clearly did not have any way to avoid that perfect precision and timing Cap had with said Grenade.

Please explain how to me logically Wolverine couldn’t react to a grenade being lobbed at him when he has reacted to things travelling FAR faster. It’s as simple as that. I’m not rationalizing things my way. I’m saying that such an occurrence does not match up with everything else we have seen from Wolverine. It doesn’t matter how precise Cap throws it, Wolverine should be able to avoid such an attack easily.

Grenades are time from a chemical reaction. Not because they have built in electronic timers and will not go till a electrical charge is triggered. It no different than shooting a hand grenade, it will blow up. That is what happens. As for comparing what he did to Fu, thats is nothing like what Cap did to Ultimate Wolverine.

Yes, grenades are timed from a chemical reaction, but that does not mean that you cannot sever the fuze from the explosives. If the chemical timed fuze is disconnected from the detonator it will not go off.

Here is a link to how a modern frag grenade works.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/grenade2.htm

Now look at the diagram, and read the in depth explanation of the step, by step process. If Bradley severs the chemical delay fuze from the detonator the grenade doesn’t explode. If you interrupt the transfer from the chemical delay fuze to the detonator the grenade will not go off.

As for your claim that shooting a grenade would cause it to explode here is some evidence to suggest that’s not entirely true.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080206154253AA9VjU6

It all depends on where the bullet strikes the grenade. Yes, if the bullet were to hit the grenade in a way that activates the detonator then it would explode. However shooting a grenade and slicing it like Bradley would are two different things completely.

Lastly I know that what Fu did and Cap tossing a grenade aren’t the same thing, but it proves that Bradley can sever very precise mechanisms preventing the explosive from going off. The difference being it’s being thrown instead of strapped to someone. However all of this is pretty pointless because as fast as Bradley is he should able to avoid the grenade with little difficulty and his regeneration will bring him back from anything a grenade can inflict.

All this assumes Cap own speed, Skill, and huge impenetrable Shield is not going to block most of these attacks period. He took a back racking from Sabertooth and fought fine. He took Hulk blows and kept going. I showed the hell he been through with Nuke. few lucky stabs is not going to end it, and with a machine gun, grenades, and shield, well cap will have more tools and the better chance. Seriously lets discuss for one second what happens if Cap nails Bradley. Instant death. Bradley cannot tank the blows Cap can and does dish out.

Being able to take blows from the Hulk doesn’t translate here because Cap has demonstrated FAR greater durability against blunt force than he has against cuts, slashes, laceration, punctures and stabs. Taking one blow from Sabertooth doesn’t mean he can take the multiple hits from Bradley’s blade that will gradually slow him down more and more.

There is nothing that Cap can dish out that Bradley can’t regenerate from in seconds. I also think it’s pretty generous to assume any connection Cap makes will be instant death. He’s hit other people with durability no greater than Bradley and didn’t insta-kill them. Not that it’s likely Cap will even be able to land a hit on Bradley. Bradley fended off two opponents nearly as skilled and fast as Cap with nothing but knives, and didn’t get touched once.

Also Fu has no bullet feats, or timing like I showed in my first post on Cap's own. Not even comparable in anyway IMO.

Yeah, except him running through a narrow corridor while dodging bullets from a machinegun.

It pretty hard at all to justify Scar is as fast as Bradly on any level, considering his own feats. Clearly Bradly is injured. What else feats does Scar have to otherwise? He is a bullet timer, but Cap is so much more. I think a argument can be made for Ultimate Cap beating bradley one on one myself. His feats, like dispatching the entire ultimate Avenger Roster, while going easy on them to get caught, is proof enough.

I never said Scar was a s fast as Bradley, but he’s not slow either. He’s just as fast by feats in combat speed as Ultimate Captain America. I already showed feats of Scar dodging bullets, attacks at least as fast as tank rounds, and making Edward look slow, and Ed is a bullet-timer as I have shown with evidence. Cap is so much more than a bullet-timer? How? His feats are no better than Scar’s. What proof is there that he was going easy? Cap teaching them a lesson doesn’t mean he wasn’t trying hard. Given the same situation Bradley could have killed everyone in the Avengers except for War Machine and Hulk, and it’s highly possible he could have taken down War Machine given his ability to spot weaknesses and slice through steel.

Well here is the problem, Steve strength greatly out weighs Greedling. i see no reason for Cap not to simply arm bar or just hand to hand Greedling till the split second for the Shield to return. In most scans the Shield returns faster than Cap can run a few feat if he is throwing it far, and the speed feats for his throws are likewise super fast. not mush of a advantage to press. Greedling attacks, and Cap does a take down.

How is Cap even getting the toss off when he is blocking and dodging Greedling’s attacks? How does he know he’s going to be in position to catch it? What if he tosses it and Greedling’s attack forces him to either dodge/block and miss the returning shield, or go for the shield and be tagged by Greedling. What if the returning shield is batted down by Greedling or simply hits him richoeting and not doing any damage to Greedling because of the Ultimate Shield? There are just too many variables for Cap to just huck it in the middle of an intense fight like this and as I pointed out cap hardly ever tosses the shield while fighting an opponent who is skilled and a serious threat to him. He mostly does so while charging in against fodder.

he can just grab Greedling fists and hold on. Lock him in a take down. Put his foot on his back, and pin him there. Maybe just simply lock up and no let go, forcing Greedling easily to his knees. Fact is Cap is simply so much stronger. Either way Greedling is not pressing any attack in the time it takes for the Shield return IMO. After all Bradly is chasing Miles, and Hawkeye. Scar is taking cover the whole fight. Why cant Cap hold off Greedling these ways easy?

You’re acting like Greedling is slow and unskilled and just going to let Cap do whatever he wants. With Ling in control he’s a very skilled and intelligent fighter. He also has a degree of superhuman strength as I explained earlier and Cap is not just going to manhandle Greedling. Greedling was able to block and doge attacks from Bradley, Cap isn’t going to be able to just grab him easily.

You’re putting words into my mouth. I never said that Bradley would follow Miles unless he was trying to get to Scar, and I never said Bradley would follow Hawkeye unless Miles was already out of the fight. I never said Scar was taking cover the whole fight, I said that his primary goal is to provide cover for the team, but as I have mentioned multiple times he will also be using his alchemy at range to attack your team when he gets the opportunity.

Too bad it only works on things he sees, not attacks he cannot see or surprise attacks. Attack from behind will end him.

If it were that easy to kill Bradley he would have died long ago amidst the storm of bullets and explosions on the battlefield. Bradley is very aware of his surroundings and although he cannot predict what he cannot see, that does not make him helpless. He has pulled off many amazing feats of skill and dexterity without the aid of his ultimate eye, and he has shown that he’s able to react to bullets from attackers when he wasn’t even looking in their direction when they were fired. Could you catch a lucky shot on him? Sure, it certainly not impossible. Is it as easy or as huge of a “weakness” as you are trying to assert? Absolutely not. Besides “ending him” isn’t going to go very far when he will just regenerate in seconds.

Like Assemble.

Cap wasn’t busy fighting anyone in that situation and his target wasn’t even aware he was there. That isn’t the same situation he faces here. Then go ahead and add in the fact that Assemble isn’t even close to my guys in speed, skill or intelligence.

Oh boy, He showed enough man. Iceman flash froze a whole mansion in seconds, and the Mansion crumbled. That feat is in the same comic. His attacks did nothing to Assemble. Yes he was also in a state of mind where most of his friends just died, so safe to say he was not holding back against a machine made by the man who killed his surrogate family. Like wise Juggernaut decimated multi story buildings, and plowed down ultimate Colossus of all people. Yet Rogue with his powers did nothing. Add to all this Iceman stated his ability thanks to Mystique stating it earlier. All of those examples are proof enough for me when Cap decaps him.

His attacks didn’t even hit Assemble during the fight you posted. His attack missed and then Assemble grew in size crushing the ice attack that missed him. The mansion feat doesn’t apply here because for whatever reason he didn’t try to freeze Assemble in the scans you posted, he merely tried to hit him with ice, and his attacks missed and then got crushed by Assemble.

Rogue got one clear hit on him and seemingly knocked out a tooth she directly punched. I don’t think that’s enough to say he’s as durable as you are making it seem. Regardless his neck would logically be one of the weaker points on his body. As I said earlier durability against blunt force is not the same as durability against slicing attacks. Wonder Woman can take blunt force punches from Superman, but can be hurt by far lower levels of slicing attacks. Assemble also has fleshy skin, unlike Greed whose skin is smooth and harder than diamonds. The shield would just ricochet off Greed if it managed to hit him. And that certainly isn’t proof that he can throw the shield faster than Bradley’s reflexes.

Again how is Bradly avoiding a blow he cannot see coming because according to you yourself, he is too busy trying to engage Miles or Hawkeye. He is not. A straight throw, and it is over. Cap has no need to ricochet a killing blow.

Except it’s not over. You have routinely ignore the fact that Bradley can regenerate from every attack you’ve suggested, because it destroys your argument. Best case scenario for you, you will leave Bradley 1 life down, 999 or so to go. However it’s unlikely it will even hit Bradley since you completely ignored the fact Greedling would yell a warning and give Bradley the knowledge there is an incoming projectile. We’ve seen Bradley react to bullets fired when he wasn’t looking in the direction they came from. I also never said Bradley would engage Hawkeye until Miles is dead. So likely how this plays out is Cap goes to throw, Greedling yells a warning and keeps Cap pre-occupied, Bradley sees the shield coming and deflects it meaning no more shield for Cap.

Anymore than he ricochet here.

Those were all shield throws against inanimate objects except for the vague 3rd one that doesn’t really show anything than him maybe taking out some fodder. He threw it hitting a crane, a helicopter and a flying box. I don’t see how that applies to throwing it at an individual who can casually react to bullets and dance between them.

Yet Cap has fought and harm beings like Warmachine, Juggernaut (twice), Assemble, Hulk, and more. Your feats above < to the durability feats they have. Saying it is impenetrable is NLF argument at best. Cap with his Shield should be able to by pass it IMO. Either way Cap can simply win by pinning Ling, he has no ground fighting skills from what I seen, and Cap can easily overpower and pin for easy win.

Should be able to bypass it based on what? War Machine has weak point in his armor due to it being a robotic armor assembled from different parts. Greedling’s ultimate shield does not share this weakness, it is one solid mass that covers his body with no weak points. Cap has never seriously injured the Hulk, and like I said Assemble has shown little to no durability against slicing attacks. It’s pure conjecture on your part to assume that he can just break through armor that has been stated to be impenetrable, and has never once been harmed without changing its structure on a molecular level.

I was a MP for 3 years out of my 7 years in the Navy. There is no way to break from this, or harm Cap at all should he do this basic restraint. Along with half the others I showed, like how he simply pinned Wolverine with his foot on the back. The strength difference is huge, and Cap will use it.

That hold demonstrated in your photo would not be nearly as effective against Greedling. It’s a joint lock, and it is effective by forcing a joint past its maximum range of motion to cause pain and damage. Greedling’s durability means that Cap isn’t causing him pain or causing any joint damage. The pain and damage is what keeps normal humans from struggling against such a restraint. You can't compare a restraint made to hold regular humans for use on someone clearly superhuman.

So assuming everything unfolds just how you want it to and Cap gets Greedling in a hold, and just holds him there and then what? He can’t hurt Greedling and it ties him up so he can’t do anything else. He’s not going to be able to hold Greedling who is also superhumanly strong with just one hand. So sure they can just wait there until Bradley eliminates Miles and then, guess what…it’s 2 v. 1.

Hawkeye

Except the Web is drawn as fluid not some straight line to shoot. It was also in the dark of night, and Spidey was moving around trying to get away.

Still it doesn’t have sentience to actually react to the projectile so it doesn’t prove you can tag a sentient being fast enough to react to bullets and actively trying to dodge your projectiles, which is what you were trying to prove with it. We already know Hawkeye is a great shot, I concede that point. However you still haven’t proved that he can tag someone actively trying to dodge your projectiles or easily deflect them, who is easily fast enough to dodge/deflect said projectiles.

Your totally right on the bullet speed, But my math was saying just that lol. the Bullets are 4 times faster to 5 times faster than arrows, which is what I meant by saying 2400 FPS, I did not mean 4000 FPS. If Hawkeye can hit super speed targets with super speed reactions with arrows, he can easier with bullets. For all the speed to counter a tank shell from a unspecified Steam Punk era tank is not the same as modern day tanks anyway. Still his best High end feat for sure though, but if in average peak humans to slightly above peak humans can react and survive Bradley, I mot seeing the Tank shell being that accurate of a feat, unless Bradley new the shot was coming thanks to his Ultimate Eye already. I hate to sound like a broken record, but Hawkeye power is simply doing this, regardless what you think is illogical, it is what he consistently does as a super human marksmen that does impossible things. Sorry :/

The tanks in FMA are certainly not “steampunk”. “Steampunk refers to a subgenre of science fiction and sometimes fantasy—also in recent years a fashion and lifestyle movement—that incorporates technology and aesthetic designs inspired by 19th-century industrial steam-powered machinery.” –Wikipedia

The tanks in FMA are based on WWII era tanks, which is something vastly different than “steampunk”. WWII era tanks had projectile velocities around 2,500 fps (Panzer) or 2,000 fps (Sherman). The only characters who ever stood up to Bradley without getting immediately stomped were Scar and Greedling. Both of them are superhumanly fast, and both were barely able to escape with their lives. Bradley never used the Ultimate Eye in his fight with Scar, or most of his fights with Greedling, and both had outside help against him. You’re trying to downplay Bradley. The guy has consistently been portrayed on that high level of speed. He was wearing his eyepatch when he did the tank feat so his ultimate eye did not factor into it.

Don’t be sorry to me. Be sorry to yourself because you still haven’t come close to proving that he would be able to touch Bradley. You have shown a series of scans as evidence, all of which have not shown what you claim they show, and all of which have context as to why he was able to tag them.

Already covered Hawkeye not being affected by a little dust and such. Wont play a factor really.

No, you showed he could see through a 2 way mirror, which is not the same thing at all.

Your trying to apply logic to something that defies logic and physics for that matter? Thats not constructive. Its comics man, you need a little give and take on the logic. From where I am sitting, sounds more like attempts to low ball whether intentional or not.

It’s not lowballing to say conventional explosives shouldn’t be able to damage someone who can take a nuke. That’s pure and simple logic. I realize that its comics and liberties are taken, but what I am talking about is just inconsistency in the writing.

Could be nuclear yield, I just know they are shown that three are enough to blow past Hulk's durability.

I highly doubt those are his standard, run of the mill explosive arrows. Regardless it’s pointless for him to use those in this fight with the fact he would have to tag my guys, the fact that the arrows would just ricochet off Greedling’s skin before they exploded (they’ve been shown to have a delayed explosion in every instance they’ve been used) and your guys could accidently be harmed by them.

Maybe, maybe not. Again if they have a delay, not sure why Hawkeye with all his super human perception and accuracy cannot time it. Those arrows also easily by pass Hulks skin and into his flesh, the arrow tips must be insane sharp to do so since bullets from mounted machine guns bounce off Hulks skin. Iron Man's best blasts does as well. I can see them sticking to anything they hit, maybe even Greedling ;)

There is no evidence to support the idea it would stick to anything. Greedling’s skin is a smooth surface harder than diamond, it doesn’t matter how sharp the point is, it will just glance off the Ultimate Shield. Hulk’s flesh is actually flesh-like, despite its durability its hardness is nothing like Greedling’s. The delay seems to be triggered after the arrow strikes its target so I don’t know who he would change it after it has been fired.

Hawkeye I am sure is not expecting a man with swords that cut down bullets from Caps first barrage (as we open with) will catch it lol. he will likely land it close to Bradley, the man is far from stupid as I showed. Even if Bradly is coming after Clint, he can land the thing ahead of where Bradley will be. this will force Bradly to stop, or divert anyway if it does not nail him. Im not sure how Bradly regenerates, i watched the show anyway, and not once he showed the same regen the other Homunculi did. Hos own wikis state he has no Regen like the others, and the fact he ages proves this more so. Not sure why your saying he can regen. Where was his Regen when he was fighting and gathering so many wounds in the end?

How many times do I have to tell you? You clearly aren’t reading my arguments because I have mentioned multiple times that Bradley has regen in FMA, but not the Manga or Brotherhood. You agreed to composite versions, so Bradley gets his regeneration from FMA. I don’t understand what is so hard to comprehend about this. I even posted the video TWICE of him regenerating from being a charred corpse. As for Hawkeye shooting arrows in front of him, that’s fine, Bradley will just take an angled approach to avoid the arrow going off and continue his attack. Like I’ve said Hawkeye’s arrow supply is limited and given the different variety of arrows he carries the number of each specific kind is even more limited. Hawkeye can go ahead and waste all his best arrows for all I care, makes things even easier for my team.

Your team is so fast, yet they all been hit by Flash bangs by lesser fodder than my team characters. Just saying. I even showed Bradley nailed by such. Pride has been easily many times as well, and others more too. Happens alot to these bullet timers by the Asian characters.

Um, no. This is incorrect. The only member of my team that gets affected by a flash bang in the entire series is Bradley and it was from Lan Fan, not fodder, and there is context behind that situation. Bradley had Ling cornered with an injured Lan Fan slung over his shoulder. His guard was down because he had them cornered and was questioning them and doing the whole general bad guy talking to much thing. Lan Fan, from a position hanging over Ling’s back where Bradley couldn’t see her tossed the flash-bang. Bradley did not expect an attack to come from an injured girl and didn’t see it coming because she was behind Ling’s back. He had his Ultimate Eye covered, so that could not factor into it either. Regardless he was able to recover and throw his sword to stop Ling from leaving from the door immediately after the flash subsided.

Pride has no bearing here considering he’s not as fast as Bradley, nor as skilled in combat. Also he wasn’t blinded by the flash bangs, they just destroyed his shadow constructs. Also Fu threw them straight up in the air where Pride couldn’t get to them before they exploded. It’s not even the same situation remotely.

So the next question then is how does he regen from organ destruction, limbs dismemberment, head decap, brain damage, or being blown apart? Unless he regen from those, not sure why some basic skin growing is a game changer.

That is not just “skin growing” lol, that is the understatement of the week. He regenerated from a charred corpse. His regeneration is philosopher stone based and so it is just like those of all the other Homunculi. The same wiki you cited just a few paragraphs earlier states that his FMA version can “regenerate from any wound”, so if you want to use that source then fine, you just have to look up the right character.

Once again I think he fully can. Especially with Miles and Cap adding on the pressure, or distractions in the fight.

We’ve argued it out over pages, I guess it’s up to the voters. I don’t see how my characters are going to suddenly have slower reactions, which is the only way he should be able to tag them. Your evidence has failed on this topic as anyone who examines it will clearly understand.

Final Summary

Over all like you said, this is a close match. Fun to think about, however here is the major things we debated so far.

My team will have general knowledge on some key things, thanks to Cap opening up with his guns, and Hawkeye with his arrows to get a good gauge. Your character meanwhile will know next to nothing of mine till they engage.

Wrong. My team will know that Miles can turn invisible. They will know that both Cap and Miles are fast. They will know that Hawkeye prefers ranged combat. Bradley’s Ultimate Eye can instantly identify your team’s weaknesses. It’s silly to say that your team is the only one able to glean information from the opening of the battle.

My team has more range option whether webbing (Miles), Grenades/guns (Cap), or Arrows/Guns (Hawkeye). My team IMO by feats are better with accuracy with their weapons too.

More doesn’t always mean better. Your ranged attacks will be largely ineffective against my team as I have spent plenty of time illustrating throughout the debate given our speed/reflexes, durability, skill, and regeneration. Scar provides a variety of ranged options that your team will have to deal with. I concede that your accuracy is better, but for reasons already addressed it makes a negligible impact.

Bradley is argued to chase Miles, and then maybe Hawkeye. Either way Miles and Hawkeye can play easy keep away from this close combat monster. Cap can match him IMO, but so far it seems steady consensus Wrath is chasing Miles or Hawkeye. That kinda hurts his team if he spends most of the fight running after targets.

You’re making this up. I set very explicit and narrow situations where Bradley would chase either. Bradley will only chase Hawkeye once Miles is taken out for good, and he’ll only chase Miles if Miles is trying to bypass Bradley and get to Scar.

Cap would last longer than most against Bradley, but he simply isn’t fast enough and he will fall. Bradley knows his every move before he does it, and has the speed to land hits on Cap with consistency. There is no consensus that Bradley is chasing Miles or Hawkeye except for those explicitly stated reasons I’ve stated multiple times. I don’t understand why it’s such a hard concept for you to grasp.

Greedling has claws, but thats it. Cap has more going form him, and by feats should pen that armor with shield attacks, or simply restrain him easy. Miles like wise involve after getting away from Bradly will Venom Sting or Web Incap, or both. Hawkeye at Range can take him out possibly with his arrows.

Yes, claws that can slice through steel with ease. He simply doesn’t need the extra gear because his durability and regen mean he can take a lickin and keep on tickin. However he’s a skilled and intelligent fighter as he has shown with Ling in control, and his physical speed is more than enough to make sure he doesn’t even take those hits in the first place. Cap isn’t going to be able to do anything to Greed’s Ultimate shield as it has protected him from attacks with greater force than a blow from a 5 tonner. The Ultimate shield has never shown to take any damage whatsoever from an RPG explosion, to sword attacks that slice through solid steel, to a builder collapsing on him, to being hit by a speeding troop carrier that weighs in the range of 10 tons. Not even a scratch has been shown by any of these things, and this is assuming Cap can land a good solid hit on him. Greedling is faster and more skilled than most of Cap’s enemies have been. The idea that you think he can restrain him easily is particularly funny. You are assuming that Greedling will just let cap have his way with him. The truth is, he’s fast and skilled enough to avoid being taken down and Ultimate Cap hardly ever uses grappling in a fight. Then you have to ask yourself what he is going to do if he even managed to get Greedling in a hold he somehow couldn’t get out of, Cap still can’t hurt Greedling, especially from a position where he already is using all his strength to hold him down and immobilize him. I already have addressed why web incapacitation and venom sting are likely ineffective here, and would take multiple, multiple attempts to take down Greedling. Hawkeye can’t touch him. He can dodge all of his projectiles and the ones he doesn’t dodge will simply ricochet off his ultimate shield that is harder than diamonds and smooth.

Bradly has some regen, nothing to defend from the trick arrows like the Taser, or Explosive arrows. Cap can take Bradly apart with his shield, or even better punches. Miles still has Web Incap for a likely option, and even if he engage and gets mostly killed, one touch for a Venom Sting will do. Miles lost for whatever reason could as well take your heaviest hitter out.

Bradley doesn’t have “some regeneration”. He has regeneration that can heal him from any wound, from being killed, even from being vaporized. Bradley blew himself up for fun against Roy Mustang and instantly healed. He doesn’t need it though because tagging Bradley just isn’t going to be that easy. He’s dodged and deflected projectiles just as fast as anything Hawkeye can bring to the table. In fact it’s going to be VERY hard for him to even . Cap isn’t going to land a punch on Bradley, he’ll get his arm cut off trying. Bradley is faster, and knows what Cap is going to do before he does it.

Miles isn’t going to web incap someone who can dodge between shattered glass without a scratch, deflect machinegun fire, and dance between bullets. He can simply slice the webs up with his swords. Venom sting is unlikely given Bradley’s speed and skill coupled with his swords giving him a significant reach advantage, AND most importantly his ultimate eye.

Scar is really the odd man out. So far all he is doing is making defenses, avoiding all these attacks being popped his way, and he is dealing with beings by Speed feats above himself IMO. He has Shield tosses, Grenades, Trick Arrows, Regular Arrows, and Webbing. Most importantly would likely die quick in close combat with Cap, or KOed by Venom Sting, or a punch from Miles.

Scar is an extremely useful and varied opponent here. You want to cast him as a weak link, but instead he is going to make your team’s strategies far more difficult to pull off. His cover and dust clouds will make Hawkeye far less effective, and his ranged alchemy will keep Hawkeye on his toes. He will provide valuable support to the rest of my team through the variety of things he can do with his alchemy. The only character on your team who is faster by feats than Scar is Miles and Miles is not so fast that Scar cannot react to him, especially with Bradley helping him. Regardless Scar should not have to face him given my team’s strategy. All of the projectiles you named can de dodged by Scar, or blocked with alchemy. Scar would not die in close combat with Steve, he is just as fast, nearly as skilled, and has alchemy Cap will have to compete with. He can destroy Cap’s greatest weapon (his shield) and can end Cap with a single blow from his destruction alchemy. He’s fast and skilled enough to avoid Miles for a while, and shouldn’t be in this situation anyways given my team’s strategy and how this debate has unfolded, with you unable to explain how Miles would end up in a 1. V. 1 close quarters with Scar. Scar can end Miles with one strike just as easily as Miles can end him.

Team work, its on my side. i have two strategic geniuses who are use to shouting orders, pitching in on ideas in battle. Miles likewise benefits greatly from this. Your team has one strategic guy who rarely gives orders, and two members who would likely not accept the orders as well as my team would from each other. Its a factor. Your team is working together for the common goal to win, my team is a worked together under fire team.

Sure, I won’t argue your teamwork should be superior to mine, but it’s not as big of an advantage as you want to make it seem. Miles cannot benefit from this because as I have stated repeatedly Hawkeye won’t be able to see him for any extended period of time, and both Cap and Hawkeye will be busy with their own fights. I have two characters who are also considered very strong strategists, and a third who has shown himself to have a very strong tactical and analytical ability in fights. They certainly aren’t as close as your team, but if it means winning the fight they’re going to listen to each other. They have all shown that above all else they will put personal feelings aside in order to accomplish their goal. In this fight their goal is to win.

i think most of my characters have a counter to any of yours, and there stats, powers, and gear gives them so much to work with for possible winning scenarios. This is the core of the debate, and I think my team edges victories more than losing them.

I have shown through evidence and logic that my team has logical counters for anything your team can bring to the table. No matter how the battle plays out we have the skill, stats, and powers to adapt to the situation and take down your team. The regeneration of my team even further tips the battle in my favor. Bradley and Greedling are fully capable of giving your team hell with one life at their disposal, but they have thousands. You get one lucky hit on and they are just going to regenerate and come back at you. Ultimately it’s a close fight, your team can eke out a few wins here and there with luck, but there is simply no consistent way for them to come out of this victorious.

I am saddened the debate devolved into you once again lying about things that are clear in the evidence, putting words into my mouth I clearly did not say, and ignoring points, evidence, and context not conducive to your argument. I feel no pleasure in saying this, but I question your ability to understand what you read given several of the arguments you have made throughout the debate. This is not personal, but I feel that it needs to be pointed out when someone has repeatedly twisted my words, ignored evidence and context, and made claims that are clearly not only not supported, but even debunked by the very evidence they are providing.

@sirfizzwhizz

SFW and I have decided that we can now go to votes. Please make sure to vote based on who you think presented the better debate.

@jedixman@granitesoldier@ghostravage@makhai@lukehero@wyldsong@dondave@slimj87d@higorm@thetruebarryallen@thenewbluebeetle007@jtindall@ms-lola@strafe_prower@tparks@allstarsuperman@joewell@thenaughtytitan@monsterstomp@laflux@k4tzm4n@jashro44@dccomicsrule2011@comicstooge@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek@frozen@juiceboks@arcus@reaverlation@vashtanerada88@devil_driver@theacidskull@stormshadow_x

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#42 Posted by Devil_Driver (1577 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate was very close, I have to admit despite having seen both FMA anime multiple times, when I first read the title I thought team FMA was outclassed. Lunacyde has changed my mind with his debate, his strategy for beating team two was more sound all around and I feel he did a better job in the rebuttals. Despite that this was incredibly enjoyable to read on both sides and it is one of the most interesting matches I have seen in some time so you both get a thumbs up for that alone.

My vote goes to @lunacyde

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#44 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42634 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool. I can't wait

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#45 Posted by makhai (3389 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Ruling on opening posts: Luna wins. His opening post was more carefully thought out, had a mountain of feats, and beyond just the feats, he also had very clear and reasonable explanations for the feats. Whizz's had many lazy grammatical errors and while he did post a great many feats himself, he exaggerated the quality of the feats and some of them were not relevant to the sections he was using them in.
  • Ruling on second posts: Luna wins again. Whizz steps his game up a bit but still falls short due to exaggerations in his feats. For example, stating that Hawkeye fires more arrows than a machine gun fires bullets. That was never stated in any one scan he presented, nor was it implied. This behavior applies to nearly all the feats he uses. Luna counters them wonderfully but does make one mistake where it concerns Mile's venom sting.
  • Ruling on third posts: Luna wins again. Wow. This one is good. Whizz totally capitalized on Luna's mistake in pointing out Luna's error but he failed to really drive the stake through the heart here and because he tried to counter with bad evidence, Luna was able to defeat the counter with actual proof of his own. Things are starting to get a little hot here too, which is awesome. There are a lot of false statements made by Whizz, which is too bad because I think he could have done much better if he stuck to the facts.
  • Ruling on Final POSTS: This is probably Whizz's best post yet but it's marred with grammatical errors, which again, make the argument seem lazily constructed. There are also some logical fallacies in it, which make it hard to see it as a winning argument. ABC logic to try and boost the credibility of his characters and more exaggerations and even misleading explanations of his feats. Luna remains unfazed by the post and addresses them all completely. I really don't know what else to say. Whizz made some nice arguments but the use of misleading explanations, irrelevant scans, and poorly made arguments take the force out of his blows when he did make some good arguments.

Overall it was a nice read but it seems like Luna crushed it every round and even when he slipped up, he regained his balance by the very next post.

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#46 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll go with Lunacyde as well. Nice debate to the both of you.

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#47 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

@makhai said:
  • Ruling on opening posts: Luna wins. His opening post was more carefully thought out, had a mountain of feats, and beyond just the feats, he also had very clear and reasonable explanations for the feats. Whizz's had many lazy grammatical errors and while he did post a great many feats himself, he exaggerated the quality of the feats and some of them were not relevant to the sections he was using them in.
  • Ruling on second posts: Luna wins again. Whizz steps his game up a bit but still falls short due to exaggerations in his feats. For example, stating that Hawkeye fires more arrows than a machine gun fires bullets. That was never stated in any one scan he presented, nor was it implied. This behavior applies to nearly all the feats he uses. Luna counters them wonderfully but does make one mistake where it concerns Mile's venom sting.
  • Ruling on third posts: Luna wins again. Wow. This one is good. Whizz totally capitalized on Luna's mistake in pointing out Luna's error but he failed to really drive the stake through the heart here and because he tried to counter with bad evidence, Luna was able to defeat the counter with actual proof of his own. Things are starting to get a little hot here too, which is awesome. There are a lot of false statements made by Whizz, which is too bad because I think he could have done much better if he stuck to the facts.
  • Ruling on Final POSTS: This is probably Whizz's best post yet but it's marred with grammatical errors, which again, make the argument seem lazily constructed. There are also some logical fallacies in it, which make it hard to see it as a winning argument. ABC logic to try and boost the credibility of his characters and more exaggerations and even misleading explanations of his feats. Luna remains unfazed by the post and addresses them all completely. I really don't know what else to say. Whizz made some nice arguments but the use of misleading explanations, irrelevant scans, and poorly made arguments take the force out of his blows when he did make some good arguments.

Overall it was a nice read but it seems like Luna crushed it every round and even when he slipped up, he regained his balance by the very next post.

Yeah I'm just going to use this as my reason for giving Luna my vote, as you're well aware I'm not a man of many words.

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#48 Posted by Jtindall (130 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to Luna the round where close and sirfizzwhizz did have some great points but it seems like every comment he made Luna had 2 more and/or countered his. Also with the teams being the way they are I think fizz had a uphill battle. But both did a great job.

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#49 Posted by Joewell911 (14729 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote is going to Luna. @makhai: Said it all.

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#50 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde:

I am saddened the debate devolved into you once again lying about things that are clear in the evidence, putting words into my mouth I clearly did not say, and ignoring points, evidence, and context not conducive to your argument. I feel no pleasure in saying this, but I question your ability to understand what you read given several of the arguments you have made throughout the debate. This is not personal, but I feel that it needs to be pointed out when someone has repeatedly twisted my words, ignored evidence and context, and made claims that are clearly not only not supported, but even debunked by the very evidence they are providing.

Sorry if that came off that way, I kinda felt you ignored what I was pointing out, and twisting what I said into things that where not comparable, or not represented well. So meh lol :) Regardless this was a long debate, and felt it went very well.

GL to ya mate. Alot more fun then the last one. So its awsome that this hapen. GL to ya, way to represent FMA. Love that show. :)

Some shout outs. @risingbean@veshark@jashro44@thenewbluebeetle007@nickzambuto@laflux@thenaughtytitan@wyldsong@tparks@cosmicallyaware1@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek@boschepg@juiceboks@slimj87d@jacthripper@funsiized@iragexcudder@thetruebarryallen@monsterstomp@higorm@ghostravage@comicstooge@colliderz Sorry if ya been tag twice. Proud of this debate myself.