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#1 Edited by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

Team HST:

No Caption Provided

Ichigo Kurosaki & Monkey D. Luffy

Represented by @darthjhawk

VS

Team Rouge Elementals:

No Caption Provided

Weather Wizard & Sandman

Represented by @major_hellstorm

Battle Rules/Conditions:

  • IC & Morals on
  • Victory by Death, K.O, Incapacitation.
  • BFR does not count as a win.
  • Standard Gear
  • Current Luffy, Ichigo
  • P52/N52 WW, 616 Sandman

Battle Location:

No Caption Provided

For the Voters:

  • This is a CAV we ask that you please refrain from posting your opinion on who would win until it is done. Normal/funny comments are fine though.
  • Ask to be tagged if you wished to be tagged for voting.
  • Don't vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who had the better argument for their rep.
  • When giving your vote, if you could please give an explanation on why you think the person won.
  • That's all thanks for reading!
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#2 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Looks cool, though I will probably use composite Weather Wizard feats.

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#4 Posted by deactivated-5b466be4b5981 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio

Yo, why does Luffy look like my uncle?

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#5 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Gotcha, sounds good. Would you like me to open or did you want to go first?

Yo, why does Luffy look like my uncle?

lol you have a badass uncle then.

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#6 Posted by deactivated-5b466be4b5981 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: He's a big buff dude with the same exact face.

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#7 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: I would prefer you go first cause I only have RT knowledge on your team but you are probably the same so I guess who ever can go first should.

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#8 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Its no problem I can go first then. I'll try and have one up either tonight or tomorrow.

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#9 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Cool, mine will probably be up on the weekend.

Btw, is team work considered a non-factor?

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#10 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: For my team debates I always assume both sides have at the very least decent teamwork. Just makes the debate easier imo.

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#11 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Edited by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Alright, sorry for the wait, but here is my opener!

The Captain & the Substitute: Monkey D. Luffy & Ichigo Kurosaki:

No Caption Provided

Opening Theme:

As always for your listening pleasure:

Loading Video...

Stat Rundown:

StatsStraw Hat LuffyThe Substitute Shinigami
Height5'8Exact Height Unknown
Weight141 lbs7'10 lbs
Age19Exact Age Unknown
Abilities
  • Superhuman Physical Characteristics
  • Gomu Gomu No Mi
  • Haki Practitioner
  • Superhuman Physical Characteristics
  • Immense Reiatsu
  • Expert Swordsman

Foreword:

Before I get into this there are a few factors that I wanted to express first. These mainly have to do with Ichigo. Something I have seen people try and use is the visibility and soul crush argument when it comes to Shinigami. I will not be using that here. For this debate I will operate under the belief that WW and Sandman can see,hear, touch, etc. Ichigo as well as being unaffected by Soul Crush. Also I will not try and use Luffy's Conqueror's Haki as a way to dominate your team, for similar reasons to soul crush.

General Terms:

I am not sure how well you know Bleach and One Piece, and for those who have limited to no knowledge as well. As such this short section will list and define terms I will likely be using often.

Bleach/Ichigo Terms:

Reiatsu: the physical force/pressure that a person’s Reiryoku creates when released. Most Shinigami, Arrancar, Quincy and Bounts can manipulate the release of their Reiatsu.

Reiryoku: a power aligned with the spiritual sensitivity and willpower of the user. It is used by Shinigami and other spiritual beings to provide power for their various abilities.

Zanpakuto: the main weapon of the Shinigami, the Arrancar, and the Visored. The Shinigami art of wielding a Zanpakutō is called Zanjutsu.

Shikai: is the second (or first upgraded) form available to a Zanpakutō. To activate it, the Shinigami needs to learn the name of their Zanpakutō.

Bankai: is the second and final upgraded form of a Zanpakutō.

Shunpo: is a movement technique which allows the user to move faster than the eye can follow.The focal point which determines the basis of this technique is speed.

One Piece/Luffy Terms:

Gomu Gomu No Mi: a Paramecia-type Devil Fruit that gives the user's body the properties of rubber, making the user a Rubber Human

Haki: a mysterious power that is found in every living being in the world. It is not that different from the normal senses. However, most people do not notice it or fail to awaken it. Broadly speaking, there are two types of Haki available to everyone, given the proper training; however, there is a third type that only a certain group of "chosen ones" are said to possess. In simple terms, Haki is an ability to sense spiritual energy (Kenbunshoku), use life force (Busoshoku) and overpower enemies (Haoshoku).

Now with that out of the way, lets get into the good stuff...

Team Introductions: Monkey D. Luffy

No Caption Provided

It's not some sort of special power, but he has the ability to make allies of everyone he meets. And that is the most fearsome ability on the high seas...

An Intro to Strawhat Luffy:

Bio:

Monkey D. Luffy, also known as "Straw Hat Luffy" and commonly as "Straw Hat", is the main protagonist of the manga and anime, One Piece. He is the son of the Revolutionary leader Monkey D. Dragon, the grandson of the Marine hero Monkey D. Garp, the sworn brother of late "Fire Fist" Portgas D. Ace and Revolutionary chief of staff Sabo, and the foster son of Curly Dadan. Luffy is a pirate and his lifelong dream is to become the Pirate King by finding the legendary treasure left behind by the late Pirate King, Gol D. Roger. He believes that being Pirate King means having the most freedom in the world.[19] He has eaten the Gomu Gomu no Mi, which gives the consumer's body the properties of rubber. As the founder and captain of the Straw Hat Pirates, he is the first member of the crew, as well as one of its top three fighters.

Powers & Abilities:

Gum-Gum Fruit:

When Luffy was a child he ate the Gum Gum Fruit that Shanks brought back from the Grand Line, unaware of what it really was. His body took on the properties of rubber. This gives his entire body the consistency of rubber. Making him near immune to most blunt attacks. His body will just absorb most attacks, even bullets. Though he isn't immune from cuts. He can also make his body stretch and mold to various shapes. Just to snap back. Luffy is often inspired by things he sees when creating new attacks. It's normally up to chance if they work or backfire.

Gear System:

Gear Second:

Greatly increases Luffy's speed, perceptions and striking power and it has been crucial in order to beat the masters of the superhuman art of 'Rokushiki'- CP9. Luffy was able to land several attacks on Blueno without the CP9 member having any chances to react, who prior to Gear Second's activation was keeping pace with Luffy.

Gear Third:

Exponentially increases Luffy's striking power, it works by Luffy first biting a small hole in between his thumb and fore finger, then blowing air into it, increasing the mass of his bones in his arm to the 'size of a giant.' Luffy is able to move the air to whichever limb he chooses, however this form reduces Luffy's speed considerably and before the timeskip Luffy's body reverted into a child like state after Gear Third's use for however long he used his Third Gear for, leaving him vulnerable to attacks.

It should be noted that Luffy has greatly improved his Gears after the two year timeskip in One Piece. He can now activate Gear Second with his arms as well as his legs and only target specific parts of his body to pump if he wishes. Luffy's Gear Third now doesn't revert him into a child like state, he can control the air placement much better and his speed reduction is lessened to a small degree.

Gear Fourth:

Luffy's most recent invention, he used this form to beat the Warlord Donquixote Doflamingo. Gear Fourth also termed 'Boundman' is activated by Luffy first coating his arm with Busoshoku Haki and biting into it and blowing air (similar to Gear Third's activation) at great pressure. But in this instance he inflates his muscular structure before distributing the air throughout his body, focusing on the upper half of his musculature.

Haki:

Haki

Haki is a power that is possessed by all people, but few can actually use it. It's often unique to those with a strong enough will to control it. This power is strong enough to effectively hurt and hit Devil Fruit users, but even they can use this skill. There are three basic forms of Haki, and Luffy can use all three

  • Observation Haki: (見聞色, Kenbunshoku) The user can use this Haki to predict an opponent's moves shortly before they make them, thereby making the attack much easier to evade with enough skill. This prediction appears to the user as an image or brief "premonition" of what the opponent will do in the user's mind's eye, and the damage the user will take if the attack actually "hits". This power also allows the user to sense the presence of others, even if they are concealed from view or too far to see naturally, people or animals have auras which surround them that the Kenbunshoku Haki user can see.
  • Armament Haki: (武装色, Busoushoku) is an attack power. This has been shown to be able to attack the body directly and no Devil Fruit power has been shown to be able to defend against it. This includes the powerful Logia types. This Haki is as if the user is wearing an invisible armor, but a black metallic variant can also be applied. This power can also be extended to weapons, such as swords, arrows, and guns.
  • Conqueror's Haki:(覇王色, Haoushoku Haki) is the power to command and control the wills of others. It's an ability that is most likely found in those who gain fame in the world. When used it can cause people surrounding the user to pass out or even control the person's will for a short time. It's an intimidation tactic that takes time to master, as using it whenever one wants to may result in the passing out of others not intended to have been affected if the user is inexperienced. It is the rarest form of Haki, with only one in a million people having it, and cannot be taught. It can however, be strengthened. It is measured by the user's own spirit, and reinforced through personal growth. Conqueror's Haki is useless against people with a sufficiently strong enough will.

General Showings:

As for this section I will give a general idea of Luffy's stats. I mainly focus on a few feats in order to avoid a massive scan dump.

Strength/Striking:

One of Luffy's impressive striking feats imo comes from Chapter 714:

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Here we see him OHKO Hajrudin during the Corrida Colosseum Tournament. What makes this impressive is that Hajrudin is capable of not only standing up to a falling 10,000 ton force but also punch hard enough to send Machvise, the user of the technique flying in chapter 770:

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This also makes this a solid durability feat for Luffy as well, as he completely no-sold Hajrudin's attack.

Durability/Pain Tolerance:

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The first scan is actually the last scan in order.

In Chapter's 481 & 482 we see Luffy is able to take the force of consecutive blows from Warlord Gekko Moria in Shadow's Asgard mode. What makes the feat impressive is that Moria could split the island of Thriller Bark in half with one blow. And here is Thriller Bark in comparison:

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Speed/Reflexes:

A good example of his speed PTS comes from chapter 520:

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Here we see Luffy in Gear Second, is able to out speed Sonia and Mari to the point where even with their Observation Haki (One Piece's main precog ability) they are still unable to actually keep up with his movements.

Versatility:

This part will cover some of the various techniques Luffy has shown throughout the series: You don't have to watch the entire video, as I have time stamps for the important abilities at the very least that I wanted to highlight.

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Video Breakdown:

0:03: Gomu Gomu No Pistol:

This is Luffy's signature attack; he stretches his arm back then throws a devastating punch. In other words, it is a standard straight punch, augmented with stretching. This attack can be used from short to long range. Luffy would typically increase the striking reach of fist by 'charging up' by means of first repeatedly swinging his un-stretched punching arm around before using the spinning force to both stretch his arm to its limits, and to maximize the hitting power.

0:26 Gomu Gomu No Bazooka:

Luffy stretches both his arms far back, and then hurls them forward, striking his opponent with both instantaneously with a double open palm strike with both hands, that frequently sends the recipient(s) flying off the other direction. This is usually used as a finishing move, he often prefers to do it at point-blank range, sometimes running up to his opponent as he's charging it.

0:43 Gomu Gomu No Stamp:

Luffy stretches his leg out and hits his opponent with the bottom of his foot, leaving an imprint, or "stamp", of his sandal.

1:15 Gomu Gomu No Stamp

Similar to the Gomu Gomu no Bullet, but Luffy twists his arm around as he stretches it behind him and hits the opponent at close range, massively increasing the velocity of the punch as twisting the arm stretches the arm even further without having to draw it back any longer which also saves the amount of time the kick-back takes.

1:32 Gomu Gomu No Gatling

Luffy uses his stretching ability to bring his fists forward repeatedly in a blurry, rapid barrage of strong punches that creates the illusion of him having multiple arms, however he does not actually grow more arms so he can still be stopped by an opponent fast enough.

2:26 Gomu Gomu no Boh

A technique in which Luffy "switches off" his conscious mind, allowing him to avoid attacks entirely on instinct. This made him immune to Enel's mind-reading Mantra ability. The disadvantage is that he can neither think nor attack in this state.

2:48 Gomu Gomu no Gatling Stamp

Similar to Gomu Gomu no Stamp, except he makes multiple strikes with his foot. This was first seen used at Marineford against the Three Admirals, crushing a mast frozen by Aokiji

3:24 Gear Second

Essentially Luffy increases the blood flow by forcing more blood through his blood vessels thus increase his fighting ability. This mode's enhancements to Luffy's physiology giving him the ability to use a new, stronger set of techniques which are generally the same as his old ones, but are so fast that even a skilled assassin would have a hard time actually seeing them. He developed this ability after encountering CP9, and watching them use Soru.

3:31 Jet Pistol:

Luffy delivers a Gomu Gomu no Pistol so fast that the fist's movement is invisible, and it truly seems like he shoots his opponent, except that the resulting impact is not akin to an actual pistol, but to a small hand-held cannon and powerful enough to propel the unlucky recipient several meters away. The incredible speed both makes the strike far more powerful, and harder to dodge. When using this technique, he points his other hand out to aim at his target.

3:50 Jet Gatling:

This is Luffy's strongest technique in Gear Second. Luffy stands still, bends forward and moves his arms upwards at speeds which they can no longer be seen, leaving only jet streams in their place, very much like how the Jet Pistol looks. This results in an effect comparable to Foxy's Kyuubi Rush, except that Luffy does not need to make use of Noro Noro photons to slow down his target in order to accumulate the hits. The hits land so fast that, after a volley, they seemingly connect simultaneously. The circles of air bursts from the punches surrounding Luffy, resemble the many barrels of an actual Gatling gun.

4:32 Gear Third and Giant Rifle:

Luffycorks his mouth with his thumb, bites into his thumb joint (making a small opening) and blows very hard into it, which inflates his arm. He is then able to transfer the air through his entire body, requiring the torso to act as an interface for his various limbs. Luffy blows so much air into his body that when they are all focused on a single limb, they become the size equivalent to (or greater than) that of a giant's, if anything resembling Oars' size. Used with his already-strong physiology, this apparently gives his arm more mass and a larger area to attack with far greater strength, but he sacrifices mobility for this strength, as his limbs are now so large that Luffy has trouble moving.

Giant Rifle: Luffy activates Gear Third to expand one of his arms and then use it to launch a giant version of the original Gomu Gomu No Rifle at a target with greater power, drilling hard into the unfortunate target. This attack is strong enough to destroy the heavily-armored Pacifista, and was first seen being used to defeat PX-4 on the Sabaody Archipelago.

5:05 Giant Bazooka:

A Gear Third version of Luffy's Gomu Gomu no Bazooka attack. To create this attack, Luffy inflates both his arms by biting both his thumbs and blowing into them. With both his arms inflated to large proportions, Luffy then delivers the attack onto an opponent the same way he regularly does with a normal Gomu Gomu no Bazooka attack, except with much greater power. This was first seen being used against Oars to break his spine.

5:18 Giant Fuusen:

Luffy activates Gear Third and expands his torso to create a giant version of his traditional Gomu Gomu no Fusen, with a much sturdier defense. This move was strong enough to cushion the impact from a massive adversary and was first used to protect Ace and Mr. 3 from a punch of Sengoku in his giant form.

5:44 Giant Pistol:

Luffy delivers a Gomu Gomu no Pistol with extreme force due to the larger size of his fist. This was first fully seen being used against Rob Lucci. Its sheer power was able to fling him from the Bridge of Hesitation on to a Buster Call Battleship.

6:39 Giant Stamp:

Luffy activates Gear Third and expands his foot to deliver a giant version of Gomu Gomu no Stamp with greater force. Incidentally, this was first used in conjunction with Mr. 3's Giant Candle Wall to push it back. This was first seen being used against Magellan in Impel Down.

7:05 Conqueror's Haki:

After the Marineford War, Luffy decided to train with Silvers Rayleigh. Luffy managed to learn the basics of Haki within a year and a half, even though Rayleigh had intended to spend the entire two years teaching him. Since reuniting with his crew, Luffy has been shown to consciously, actively, and easily use Haki in combat. It should be noted that Luffy possesses what is considered to be a large amount of Haki

8:02: Elephant Gun:

The Haki enhanced version of Gomu Gomu no Gigant Pistol. After activating Gear Third, Luffy will also implement Busoshoku: Koka into his attack, turning his arm black. Just like his Gomu Gomu no Bullet, Luffy launches his attack at his enemy with great destructive power. However, the Gear Third's air only fills the end of his arm, giving him a giant fist with an elephantine round wrist. It is named after an elephant gun, a large caliber firearm used to hunt elephants that used black powder at first and then started using smokeless powder. This attack was first seen underwater against the Kraken.

8:55 Elephant Gatling:

After enlarging and imbuing both his arms with Busoshoku Haki in a similar manner as Gomu Gomu no Elephant Gun, Luffy performs his Gomu Gomu no Gatling, which, with the heavily enforced arms, causes massive damage. Since the bulk of the air sits in his forearms and fists and not in his upper arms, it allows him to punch and pull back rapidly. This technique was first seen to defeat Hody Jones, as well as breaking apart the falling Noah. In one of the specials, it was shown that he can also perform this technique with a single arm while retaining enough power to cause extensive damage to a large Marine base.

9:15-End Red Hawk:

A Haki enhanced version of Gomu Gomu no Jet Bullet. After entering Gear Second, Luffy uses Busoshoku Haki to harden his arm entering in Gear Second Busō. He then stretches it back like Gomu Gomu no Pistol. When cocked back, his arm ignites, releasing a stream of fire. When the attack hits, it creates a fiery explosion even underwater and deals immense damage.

This should cover Luffy for now, and now moving on to the second half of this team...

Team Introductions: Ichigo Kurosaki:

No Caption Provided

"... If fate is a millstone, then we are the grist. There is nothing we can do. So I wish for strength. If I cannot protect them from the wheel, then give me a strong blade, and enough strength... to shatter fate."

An Introduction to Ichigo:

Bio:

Ichigo Kurosaki is a human Substitute Soul Reaper for the Soul Society, who protects his friends and family above all else. Unlike most characters he really doesn't have an end goal. Ichigo will still protect everything he cares for even at the cost of his life and/or amazing powers. He was unsure of his powers and job but has come to embrace them as a part of himself and uses those powers for the greater good.

Powers & Abilities:

Soul Reaper Powers:

The powers of the Soul Reaper (死神, Shinigami) is to take on an astral body form of his soul that is removed from his original body. Ichigo's powers are unique in that he is a living Soul Reaper. He was the child conceived from a Soul Reaper in a unique Gigai body, and it's most likely that these powers were pass down to him as an inherited trait. After the death of Ichigo's mother, the Hollow that had been sealed within her transferred to Ichigo, and it bonded with Ichigo's latent Soul Reaper powers to become his zanpakutō, Zangetsu.

Soul Reapers are normally sent to the academy to train to fight and use the Kido magic. Ichigo was trained to fight by Kisuke Urahara, a former Captain of the Gotie 13. He has never been trained to focus his power to use most of the offensive Kido magic.

  • Zanjutsu (斬術): Zanjutsu is one of the four basic fighting technique taught to all Soul Reapers. This one focuses on combat using a zanpakutō. Ichigo was taught by Urahara.
  • Flash Step (瞬歩, shunpo): Flash Step is a high speed technique used by the Soul Reapers. Ichigo has mastered this technique under his combat training and experiences. His technique rivals or even surpasses those of Byakuya Kuchiki.
  • Levitation: While in his spiritual form, Ichigo has the ability to levitate in mid air for an infinite amonut of time. This technique can also be used to high speed flight.

Hollowfication

The ability known as Hollowfication (虚(ホロウ)化, Horōka) is a unique power that melds the abilities of the Hollow with a living soul it's bonded with. This is normally achieved through the experiments of Sosuke Aizen on several of the Gotie 13 Captains, but Ichigo obtained this skill due to the unique situation of how he gained his original Soul Reaper powers.

To use Hollowfication, the person must first fight and tame their inner Hollow. This will then give the Soul Reaper the power to summon their Hollow mask for a set amount of time. Using the mask gives an artificial boost of power to all of the current abilities.

Quincy Powers

Blut

Blut (血装 (ブルート), Burūto) is a special technique of the Quincy. This power is in the very blood of all Quincy, and using it gives them super human defense and offensive powers.

  • Blut Vene (静血装 (ブルート・ヴェーネ), burūto vēne):Blut Vene is a defensive technique performed by directing the flow of Reishi directly into the blood vessels. Ichigo was completely unaware of how to use this power or even of his Quincy heritage when he did. He activated it completely by accident in his first fight with Yhwach. It was this ability that saved him from being killed from Yhwach's sword to the throat.

Weapons & Equipment:

Zanpakutō

The zanpakutō is the primary weapon of all Soul Reapers. While normal Soul Reapers are given a base asauchi (浅打ち, asauchi) to impart their soul onto, Ichigo's zanpakutō was manifested from his very soul. This is the first time in history that has happened. The name of Ichigo's zanpakutō is Zangetsu (斬月, Zangetsu).

Zanpakutō have three separate forms, but the final two can only be obtained through strict training. Not every Soul Reaper is capable of activating the final two forms.

Currently, Ichigo weilds dual Zampakutous where the first is Zangetsu (an alter ego of Yhwach) while the other is actually the hollow inside Ichigo which forms as a direct result of the experiments done by Sousuke Aizen. His Bankai will most likely be one that combines Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo to give rise to perhaps the strongest Bankai in the history of the manga. This point has not been arrived at yet.

Shikai

Shikai is the first of the seals on a zanpakutō. Activating this power is gained by learning the name of the sword. This is done through extensive training. Upon speaking the name of the zanpakutō, it will take on a new form with unique abilities.

Ichigo obtained the shikai form through his training with Urahara. In this form, Zangetsu takes on the appearance of an oversize, black cleaver. It's been described as looking like an unfinished blade, and has never returned to the sealed form after it was released.

The shikai form of Zangetsu was altered after Ichigo's Soul Reaper powers were returned to him by the Soul Society, after losing them in his fight with Aizen. Zangetsu's entire form was generally altered from before, and appeared to be a completed blade.

  • Getsuga Tenshō (月牙天衝): The Getsuga Tenshō attack is formed by Ichigo swinging Zangetsu. The sword then absorbed Ichigo's own spiritual energy and magnifies them as a crescent moon-shaped blast fires from the blade. Knowing the name of the attack can increase its potency.

Bankai

Bankai is the final seal of the zanpakutō. Normally, training to use bakai can take many years. Ichigo obtained this ability with a period of a week using a specialized training technique that was developed by Urahara.

Zangetsu's bankai is known as Tensa Zangetsu (天鎖斬月). In bankai form it essentially compresses and clothes Ichigo in his own power. By compressing his power Ichigo is capable of movement at such high speeds and velocities. This makes Ichigo’s even more potent and extremely difficult to dodge. The sword itself changes shape to a long, black katana.

As the shikai form changed when Ichigo's powers were returned, the bankai form was also changed. The sword remained black, but the style of the blade was altered, and three serrations are formed at the top of the blade near the tip. Though far more powerful that before, this form of Zangetsu was broken by Yhwach, and a broken bankai can never be revived.

  • Getsuga Tenshō (月牙天衝): The Getsuga Tenshō attack is still used in bankai form, but the intensity of the power is increased twenty fold. The energy blast in this form is a black wave of destructive force that Ichigo has much more control over.

General Showings:

As with Luffy, I will show a few feats from Ichigo in order to get a general idea of what he can do.

Strength:

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From Chapter 582. A basic showing of Ichigo's base strength is how he can casually throw four Sternritter with such force that they destroy the towers they collide with. Also a solid showing of combat speed given that Candice, the Sternritter in the first scan uses her lightning to enhance her speed.

Durability & Speed:

I put these two together as the showing I am using here has a good indication of Ichigo's baseline stats:

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From Chapter 585, we see Ichigo engage in an 1v8 with all of the remaining Sternritter. It should be noted that Ichigo isn't really trying to fight back here, as he is focused on getting to Yhwach. But he tanks being plowed through multiple city blocks by the first Sternritter who can casually lift city blocks herself, then dodge a blitz from a second one, and finally also bullet times from having gun directly on his head and counter attacks. A solid showing of his combat stats I think.

Versatility (Sort of...):

Ichigo is a bit of a one trick pony he only has a couple of named attacks outside of physical combat.

Getsuga Tensho:

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Chapter 583
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Chapter 461

At the instant of the slash, Zangetsu, absorbing Ichigo's spiritual energy, releases highly condensed spiritual energy at the tip of the blade, which, magnifying the slash attack, flies forward. This slash takes the form of a crescent moon or the shape of a wave. Ichigo uses this ability without knowing its name several times, but masters the technique later on during his Bankai training. As stated by Zangetsu, knowing the name of an attack heightens its power compared to its strength when the wielder does not know its name. The Getsuga Tenshō is a powerful technique with great force, capable of causing large-scale damage and destruction. Ichigo has used this technique in several different manners, such as striking the ground, creating an omnidirectional blast which knocks away incoming attacks, or slashing at the ground, upturning it and crushing everything in its path. After Ichigo regains his Shinigami powers for the second time, his Getsuga Tenshō is noticeably larger and stronger than it was before he lost his powers. A single strike from it cleanly cut off the top portion of Tsukishima's mansion and dispersed an entire rainstorm.After gaining his true Zanpakutō, Ichigo can fire a Getsuga Tenshō by simply pointing his smaller sword at the enemy and making a small slash with it.[ He can also fire a Getsuga Tenshō with his larger sword; this version is completely black, and is powerful enough to blast a large hole in the Soul King Palace and knock someone as powerful as Yhwach several meters back.

Getsuga Jujisho:

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Chapter 583 & 584

By firing a Getsuga Tenshō with each blade of his true Shikai, Ichigo can fuse them into a large, cross-shaped blast of energy. It is powerful enough to disperse Candice Catnipp's Electrocution technique and completely destroy her left arm on contact.

Getsuga/Gran Rey Cero:

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Chapters 676 & 677

By using the longer sword of Zangetsu as a substitute second horn and with his blood as a catalyst, Ichigo can fire a Gran Rey Cero; moreover, he can combine it with a Getsuga Tenshō to create a massive slashing attack powerful enough to wound a Soul King-empowered Yhwach; though the latter quickly brushed it off, he noted that it was nonetheless a potent technique and proof that he had to begin taking Ichigo seriously.

This should cover it to show baseline stats and powers for now.

Initial Thoughts & Strategy:

Now since I don't know too much about either of your characters, so until you have had a chance to present your opener I will refrai from any sort of detailed strategy or battle plan. I think this should work for an opener right now. Some things I plan to get into later are:

  • Luffy's Gears and Haki
  • Ichigo's Hollowfication
  • Teamwork and Strategy Breakdown

That being said, I can't wait to see your post!

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#13 Posted by TheVivas (19546 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a peculiar matchup.

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#14 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: Yup. I basically picked two random characters.

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#15 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Nice opener. Mine will be up in a couple of days, I need to respond to my other one first.

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#16 Posted by FlashingSabre (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Weird Matchup. T4V

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#17 Edited by AlmightyAmortal (893 posts) - - Show Bio

It might have been better to wait until after Luffy's fight with Katakuri is over.... but it still seems interesting. T4V

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#18 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Oh and btw, I think we should make a rule that Sandman can't become the battlefield (he can make it part of him but not the other way around). Otherwise I don't think you can beat him phsyically.

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#21 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Here is my post (I try to loosely follow the format of whoever goes first).

Weather Wizard & Sandman

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Opening Theme:

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Opening Introductions: Weather Wizard

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Bio, Powers & Abilities:

As his name implies the Weather Wizard AKA Mark/Marco Mardon has the ability to control the weather much like the X-Man, Storm. With his powers (which was formerly just a wand) Mark became a villain in Central City as an enemy of the Flash, he is also part of a team known as the Rouges. His full list of powers and abilities are shown below (cutesy of the Wiki):

  • Blizzards - The Weather Wand can create harsh blizzards that coat an entire city in snow, thus generating a permanent winter.
  • Thunder & Lightning - The Wand can generate large-scale thunder storms that spew bolts of lightning wildly around the general area. The Wand can also generate bolts of lightning at a specific area or target.
  • Fog - A thick mist can be created by the Wand, granting the user the ability to move throughout the fog unseen.
  • Intense Heatwaves - The Wand can generate intense waves of heat that cause heat cramps. When a human body is exposed to temperature above 150 degrees Fahrenheit it begins to create incredibly painful and long lasting muscle spasms. This eventually leads to exhaustion and heat stroke, which if continued can lead quickly to death.
  • Air Currents / Harsh Winds - The Wand is able to generate powerful winds and air currents that can blow targets or objects away with relative ease. The user of the wand can also manipulate air currents in order to grant them flight & levitation.
  • Tornadoes - The Wand can create large and powerful tornadoes out of thin air at incredibly quick speeds. These tornadoes are fully capable of tearing down entire cities with relative ease.
  • Floods - The Wand can generate large floods or tidal waves.
  • Precise Storm Creation - The Wand grants the user an incredibly precise level of storm creation & weather manipulation. Weather Wizard has used this wand to create hurricanes and tornadoes within the stomachs of various foes thus causing them to explode from the intense pressures.

Showings:

There will be one showing per category in this section, just to give you an idea of the Weather Wizard's powers.

Blizzards:

Below is one of the best examples of WW's blizzard creation as he shows here that he capable of creating absolute zero storms which stops Johnny Quick (a speedster who is on the level of the Flash).

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Lightning:

Lightning is one of his go to offensive attacks and with it he is able to stun Wonder Girl with a single bolt.

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Fog:

This is an ability I am not sure will be used in this battle but it is still quite useful if used correctly. Here WW uses it to blind Zoom and Kid Zoom to keep them from running.

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Heatwaves:

WW doesn't use heat waves too often but he can create them when needed. Here he creates one that causes the Flash to have heat cramps.

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Tornadoes/Air Manipulation:

This is honestly WW's most powerful ability but just to demonstrate his control here is a scan of WW blasting Flash away with a mini vortex.

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Floods/Storm:

This is another powerful ability that WW has great control over (so he can make it so he doesn't also affect Sandman). Here you can see WW using his abilities to flood a whole building.

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Team Introductions: Sandman

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Bio, Powers & Abilities:

William Baker AKA Flint Marko had a rough childhood and strayed into a life of crime as an adult, when he became the Sandman. As Sandman, he is one of Spider-Man's most dangerous rouges and a prominent member of the Sinister Six. He has powers similar to Sir Crocodile. Hi full list of abilities is below (also taken from a wiki):

  • Superhuman Strength: As a consequence of having a body composed of animated sand, the Sandman possesses phenomenal superhuman strength, able to lift up to 85 tons under optimal conditions.
  • Density Control: His radically mutagenically altered body composition and increased density enable him to compact or loosen the particles of sand that make up his form. Consequently, the Sandman can become as hard as sandstone, or disperse his body so that he becomes invulnerable to physical attacks. A favorite tactic of the Sandman is making himself slightly dispersed when an opponent punches him, and then making himself rock-solid again, entrapping his opponent's appendage.
  • Shape-shifting: He can shape his sand-state body into any continuous shape he can imagine, including his forearms into weapons like hammers, spiked maces, and large fists, forming ram horns on his head, stretching, elongating, deforming, expanding, flattening, or compressing all or portions of his body at will, like Mr. Fantastic, phase through small openings, etc.
  • Sand Blasts: He can project his sand particles outward at high speeds and, when in the shape of a bulky object, with the impact of a large sandbag.
  • Glass Generation: More recently, the Sandman learned some new tricks from the Wizard, including altering the formation of his sand particles and reshaping them into glass. This grants him the ability to reflect light and energy off of him.
  • Reformation: The Sandman maintains mental control of the particles of which his body is composed so that he can reform his scattered grains unless a substantial portion of his body mass has been isolated.
  • Sand Conversion: Apparently, he can also convert common grains of sand around him into constituents of his body to replenish portions he might lose track of during battle. In this manner, he can increase his overall size and volume (to some as yet unknown limit), or that of his limbs.
  • Sand Clones: Thanks to having such good mental control over his own molecules, he is able to create duplicates of himself. Each one capable of acting on its own.
    • Giant Form: The clones, should they be in agreement, are all able to fuse together into a giant sandman, about the size of an eight story building.

Showings:

This section will be similar to WW's but I will only touch on the main bits such as control, strength and versatility. It will also be a little more in-depth.

Strength:

Sandman is actually really strong. Even though he is a Spidey rouge he has the strength to harm high tiers such as the Thing (who is mountain level).

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He can even hurt the Hulk who he has fought multiple times.

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Here is another showing for consistency.

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Sand Manipulation:

Sandman can do quite a few things with his powers but for now I will just focus on his different forms.

First up is his sandstone form which is his most durable form and his best defense against his usual weaknesses (water/heat) as shown here.

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Then you have his giant form which is exactly as it sounds. He can grow as big as he ewants granted enough sand is present (which it is given the battlefield).

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There is also his soft sand form which allows him to completely ignore physical attacks.

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And of course his normal form which he uses most which is basically a compact pile of humanoid sand which is basically a mix of his sandstone and soft sand forms. He can still take physical attacks without damage in this form as it just scatters him a bit.

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Also it is worth noting that his weapon arms are usually granite like he says in the Hulk scans.

Versatility:

Sandman has some more versatile powers like the ability to turn into a sandstorm which block all oxygen in a given area which he used against Luke Cage.

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He can also his sandstorm to fly and cause helicopters to go haywire.

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But he doesn't need his sandstorms to choke someone as he can just force himself inside a person's mouth.

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Lastly, he can create clones of himself which he uses to quickly take out Spider-Man.

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Conclusion:

My team is incredibly versatile and has multiple ways to beat your s=team. One way we can do that is absolute zero winds combined with sand dragging you under which would keep your team still and might even take your team out (since rubber is weak to cold so Lyuffy could be as well and I am not sure what resistance Ichigo has against cold) but if it doesn't Sandman can choke them out as they are stuck.

On the other side of the spectrum, as of now I can think of only two ways you can harm Sandman (you spirit slashes and Haki) and I don't think your team will be able to bypass WW's attacks.

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#22 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: nice opener! And I just saw your previous post about Sandman. Sounds good to me. I'll try and have something by midweek

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#24 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Sorry for the wait I just finished a big post in my other match. Will try and have a response by tomorrow.

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#26 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Sorry for the wait, but my next post is here!

Counters & Strategy I: Strike of the Heroes

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"The difference in strength...what about it? Do you think I should give up just because you're stronger than me? I've always known you were strong. Nothing I see now will change my mind. I will defeat you,

Foreword:

Before I get into it let me say again, very nice intro. I'm glad that I was able to get a good look at WW and Sandman's capabilities and how they stack up against Luffy & Ichigo. Now for this post since we didn't dive heavy into counters I will be offering some general thoughts on how my team would open up and fight this battle, leading to an eventual victory.

General Counters: Weather Wizard

Now in your opener you stated that you didn't believe that my team would be able to bypass Weather Wizard's attacks:

I don't think your team will be able to bypass WW's attacks.

As such for this section of my post I will mainly focus on how I believe that my team can in fact go up against and get around Weather Wizards main attacks and proceed to take him down.

Blizzards:

Below is one of the best examples of WW's blizzard creation as he shows here that he capable of creating absolute zero storms which stops Johnny Quick (a speedster who is on the level of the Flash).

Its powerful for sure, but Luffy has dealt with cold before, when fighting Aokiji and Monet, his battle with Monet in Chapter 683 was more akin to the blizzard WW seems to use since her powers reside over snow:

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Monet's Devil Fruit works by continually freezing and slowing the body of her opponent, with her being a snow Logia type and all. To add on to this along with being enveloped in her body, Luffy was also inside her Kamakura Jussoshi which is a ten layered barrier of snow, that makes the space inside of it closer. We can see in the scans that Luffy can not only resist this, but respond accordingly enough to get out of it. So I think he can deal with WW's blizzard and with his own speed should be able to get around being only 100 mph.

As for Ichigo while he has not fought anyone who uses cold outright he should be more than fast enough to avoid the blizzard and get around it with his shunpo, maneuvering either in the air or to WW's blind spot in counterattack.

Lightning:

Lightning is one of his go to offensive attacks and with it he is able to stun Wonder Girl with a single bolt.

This part I don't think will affect either of my team that much as Luffy is naturally resistant to lightning due to his body's rubber makeup seeing as how he no-sold Enel's lightning attacks that could reach up to even 100 million volts casually:

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Chapter 279

Meanwhile Ichigo has also no sold lightning attacks that are five gigajoules strong in Chapter 582:

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For comparison an average lightning usually contains around .5 gigajoules of energy, and besides Ichigo is also a lightning timer as well shown in the Getsuga Jujsiho part of my opener. Candice's lightning is natural, so all in all he should be able to deal with WW's lightning as well.

Fog:

This is an ability I am not sure will be used in this battle but it is still quite useful if used correctly. Here WW uses it to blind Zoom and Kid Zoom to keep them from running.

Fog while useful, is matched by Luffy's use of Observation Haki, as he has multiple instances of using it to sense the presences of others he cant see and easily predict and dodge attacks as shown numerous times in the Fishman Island:

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By being able to sense WW and Sandman even in the Fog, he could easily predict their attacks and have Ichigo dodge with him as well or forewarn him of the attack and they can respond in kind.

Heatwaves:

WW doesn't use heat waves too often but he can create them when needed. Here he creates one that causes the Flash to have heat cramps.

Since you said he doesn't use them too often I will hold back on countering it fully, but it seems to be contained to a field, given how Flash moved out of it, so I don't see why Luffy and Ichigo wouldn't be able to do the same.

Tornadoes/Air Manipulation:

This is honestly WW's most powerful ability but just to demonstrate his control here is a scan of WW blasting Flash away with a mini vortex.

How powerful can he get with his Wind Manipulation? I ask because based on what you have shown I think Luffy and Ichigo can counter these with strength,Luffy's Haki imbued Gear 3rd or 4th or Ichigo using a Getsuga Tensho or Cero to get past this as well.

Floods/Storm:

This is another powerful ability that WW has great control over (so he can make it so he doesn't also affect Sandman). Here you can see WW using his abilities to flood a whole building.

Impressive, but how does he fare if his opponents can fly? Can he redirect the water in that way and how high can he take it?

TL;DR

I think Luffy and Ichigo have the capabilities to either counter or avoid Weather Wizards abilities despite how powerful he is. Also with Luffy's Observation Haki they should have the means to not only see some of these attacks coming, but also enable them to deal with them that much easier. Additionally with their speed and own abilities Luffy and Ichigo can deal with whatever is thrown.

General Counters: Sandman

Since you didn't really list out your powers with Sandman like you did with Weather Wizard, this counter section will be a bit different. The main way of countering Sandman comes through Luffy and as you have already stated, armament haki is one of Luffy's main way of doing this, seeing as this is how he can hurt people with intangibility. Another means is through water which if WW produces a flood or by using the beach battlefield, Luffy can use the water and by making use of his superior speed, Luffy can evade blows and bombard Sandman with attacks and if need be can use Gear 4th to be in the air to deal wit Sandman's ground advantage.

Ichigo can be a solid support here be using his Getsuga Tenshos to keep Sandman at bay and keep him from reforming quickly.

TL;DR

Given Luffy and Ichigo's superior speed, and capability of flight they can avoid Sandman that much easier and by using Ichigo as a solid distraction, Luffy can either use the water or Haki to help put him down for the count.

The Battle: Luffy vs Sandman/Weather Wizard

For this section I will mainly look at how I think Luffy could go up against Sandman and eventually take him down. Wheter it be through observation haki, Luffy striking first, or Sandman activating his powers, Luffy is going to see that he is similar to Crocodile, the Sand Logia Devil Fruit User. As such Luffy will likely immediately adapt with the following strategy.

1. Activate Gear 2nd & 3rd and embed his body with Armament haki, enabling his strikes to hit and significantly harm Sandman. I have already shown that Luffy is able to one-shot a giant who can withstand and overpower 10,000 tons of force, but another good example of his striking comes from Chapter 605 when he one-shots a giant kraken 5 km under the sea while significantly weakend by being underwater:

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Along with that the speed from Gear 2nd will also increase the velocity and force behind his blows.

2. Utilizing his speed and observation Haki he should be more than capable of dodging Sandman's counterattacks and keeping him on the ropes.

3. Then if need be he can activate Gear 4th whose strength can do this:

Chapter 790
Chapter 790

As you can see, Gear 4's King Kong gun folds the entire city of Dressrosa in half just by the impact of Doflamingo colliding. This is again a heavily exhausted, out of haki Luffy, whose punch first had to overcome Doflamingo's God's Thread and Spider's Web, two of Doffy's strongest offensive and defensive techniques respectively. Shirso had a great description of this as seen, and I think he deserves the credit for that.

Now if instead Luffy engaged Weather Wizard instead of Sandman I could see the battle going like this, even though it would be the harder of the two for Luffy.

1. With his Haki, Luffy should be able to sense WW's more dangerous attacks and adjust accordingly.

2. The same as with Sandman, using his Gears Luffy should be able to put down WW with several blows. You didn't really post any durability so I could be wrong.

3. Should WW abuse his flying ability Luffy can use Gear Fourth to counter this and possibly blitz him given as how he can cover a city length in an instant as seen in his battle with Doflamingo:

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Chapter 784

TL;DR

Depending on who Luffy engages, I think he has the capabilities to deal with either of them. His main assets being his strength, durability, speed, and Haki, Luffy has not only the means to tank/survive the attacks of WW and/or Sandman, but dish it back out as well and possibly in even greater force. Once he defeats either of his opponents in a 1v1 and then assist Ichigo in dealing with the other to win the battle.

The Battle: Ichigo vs Sandman/Weather Wizard

As with Luffy, I will go through how I think Ichigo would be able to deal with either Sandman or WW depending on who he engages. Given that he engages Sandman first, I would think Ichigo would enter the battle. Given his own set of abilities, its will likely end up with him spamming Getsugas and using his physical abilities to gain an advantage.

1. Ichigo either by striking first or seeing Sandman's abilities activate will know that he can turn into sand.

2. At that point he will likely resort to using his Getsugas to keep Sandman at bay and his casual slashes can split buildings and clouds:

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And I am not sure how Sandman's consistency holds up to Ichigo's slashes and Getsugas given that they are empowered with his spirit energy.

3.If Sandman manages to end up surrounding Ichigo, despite his speed he could give him the same treatment as he did to Byakuya's Sebonzakura in which he deflected a thousand blades with his speed and skill.

4. If Sandman doesn't go down, Ichigo can just keep him at bay until Luffy deals with Weather Wizard or help him so that they can focus on Sandman.

And as for Weather Wizard himself, if Ichigo instead engaged him first it would be a matter of dodging his blows and hitting him with his blows.

1. Using his speed, ichigo should be able to avid WW's main attacks, and tank them should he get by them.

2. Then the main strategy would be countering and overpowering his attacks with either Getsuga Tensho or Jujisho and then gaining on WW from there.

3. Once he gets close enough, using his sword he should be able to take out WW decisively

TL;DR

The main strategy for Ichigo for enagaing either of his opponents is abusing his speed and the power of his Getsugas to keep either opponent at bay or even put them down. For Sandman if he doesn't go down all Ichigo has to do is avoid him by staying the air and keeping him frm reforming with his abilities, whereas he can surely put WW down, its just a matter of getting close.

Current Thoughts:

I'll leave it here for now and will respond once you have had more of a chance to present counters and strategies. Overall I think my team has the better overall stats and has the means and capabilities to overpower the versatility of your team. Great debate so far, and I am having a lot of fun. Can't wait to see your next post!

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#28 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Awesome, man! My post should be up on th weekend. But how many posts will we be doing? 3 or 4? I usually prefer 3 but with a team v team like this 4 might be necessary especially when this is also a learning experience for the both of us.

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#29 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: sounds good! I usually do three overall so I’m fine with that, but how about we play it by ear and if we feel we need another post we do that ?

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#30 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Hmm, okay. Although I usually like to try to completely seal my arguement on my last post. Btw, how exactly does Armament Haki work against Logia users? From what I gather from the wiki it harms the user's substantial body but I have no idea what that means.

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#31 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Sound goods. As far as your question teh best way I can explain it, is that Haki allows users to essentially grab the matter of their opponent and treat it as if it were their real/regular body instead of their element like when Luffy did it while fighting Ceaser:

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#32 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

delete your comments

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#33 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters: Weather Wizard

Its powerful for sure, but Luffy has dealt with cold before, when fighting Aokiji and Monet, his battle with Monet in Chapter 683 was more akin to the blizzard WW seems to use since her powers reside over snow:

I don't think that is enough. In the scans it looks like the ice user was just making it cold enough to make Luffy sleepy, meanwhile Weather Wizard stopped Johnny Quick with absolute zero winds. Which is just another level of cold, the same level Captain Cold uses to slow down the Flash.

As for Ichigo while he has not fought anyone who uses cold outright he should be more than fast enough to avoid the blizzard and get around it with his shunpo, maneuvering either in the air or to WW's blind spot in counterattack.

Weather Wizard is much more well versed in using blizzards than heatstrokes if that is what you are basing this claim on. He can casually create storms that blanket an entire section of a city in ice. I doubt Ichigo could dodge that.

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This part I don't think will affect either of my team that much as Luffy is naturally resistant to lightning due to his body's rubber makeup seeing as how he no-sold Enel's lightning attacks that could reach up to even 100 million volts casually:

Meanwhile Ichigo has also no sold lightning attacks that are five gigajoules strong in Chapter 582:

Impressive. However WW can blast even the Man of Steel away.

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And force Aquaman to dodge

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By being able to sense WW and Sandman even in the Fog, he could easily predict their attacks and have Ichigo dodge with him as well or forewarn him of the attack and they can respond in kind.

Maybe. But if he has to constantly warn Ichigo then their reaction speed would be damaged.

Since you said he doesn't use them too often I will hold back on countering it fully, but it seems to be contained to a field, given how Flash moved out of it, so I don't see why Luffy and Ichigo wouldn't be able to do the same.

What proof is there that they can survive the heat? It was melting metal after all.

How powerful can he get with his Wind Manipulation? I ask because based on what you have shown I think Luffy and Ichigo can counter these with strength,Luffy's Haki imbued Gear 3rd or 4th or Ichigo using a Getsuga Tensho or Cero to get past this as well.

Powerful enough to overpower the Flash.

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And the Flash only escaped by phasing through a car. Now Weather Wizard claims that he is being amped here because he claims that he needs the wand but his son does not, but I doubt that considering the fact that he doesn't actually need the wand.

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And of course composite WW wouldn't have those mental blocks because in the N52 he becomes a metahuman.

Impressive, but how does he fare if his opponents can fly? Can he redirect the water in that way and how high can he take it?

Considered he can also make rain clouds from above, I would say he can make it as high as the clouds. He can also immbolize the Flash with his rain (while the Flash was still a noob).

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Counters: Sandman

Since you didn't really list out your powers with Sandman like you did with Weather Wizard, this counter section will be a bit different. The main way of countering Sandman comes through Luffy and as you have already stated, armament haki is one of Luffy's main way of doing this, seeing as this is how he can hurt people with intangibility.

It's harder than you think. See from what I gather Logia users become their element and haki makes it so te element is treated as their body. But for Sandman, he is only one grain of sand controlling all the others. So in order for the haki to work you would have to directly attack his queen bee sand.

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Another means is through water which if WW produces a flood or by using the beach battlefield, Luffy can use the water and by making use of his superior speed, Luffy can evade blows and bombard Sandman with attacks and if need be can use Gear 4th to be in the air to deal wit Sandman's ground advantage.

Thought Luffy was weak against sea water (and we are at a beach)? Regardless Sandman has a whole beach worth of regen so a little water won't stop him (especially considering he can just turn into sandstone to negate the effects).

The Battle Counters: Luffy vs Sandman/Weather Wizard

1. Activate Gear 2nd & 3rd and embed his body with Armament haki, enabling his strikes to hit and significantly harm Sandman. I have already shown that Luffy is able to one-shot a giant who can withstand and overpower 10,000 tons of force, but another good example of his striking comes from Chapter 605 when he one-shots a giant kraken 5 km under the sea while significantly weakend by being underwater:

Cool. but unless Luffy lucks out and attacks his queen bee particle, his physical attacks would just go right through Sandman.

. Utilizing his speed and observation Haki he should be more than capable of dodging Sandman's counterattacks and keeping him on the ropes.

Can he dodge Sandman suffocating him with a sandstorm which would cover the entire battlefield?

Then if need be he can activate Gear 4th whose strength can do this:

Which would go right through Sandman and be useless.

1. With his Haki, Luffy should be able to sense WW's more dangerous attacks and adjust accordingly.

2. The same as with Sandman, using his Gears Luffy should be able to put down WW with several blows. You didn't really post any durability so I could be wrong.

If Luffy were to get in close WW would blow him away or freeze him. WW is peak human when it comes to physicals though so not impressive for the tier.

3. Should WW abuse his flying ability Luffy can use Gear Fourth to counter this and possibly blitz him given as how he can cover a city length in an instant as seen in his battle with Doflamingo:

Well WW does fight the Flash so I find that unlikely. Here you can see him nearly tag a running Flash multiple times (and Flash is many times faster than you).

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The Battle Counters: Ichigo vs Sandman/Weather Wizard

Ichigo either by striking first or seeing Sandman's abilities activate will know that he can turn into sand.

Sandman doesn't turn into sand. He is sand.

2. At that point he will likely resort to using his Getsugas to keep Sandman at bay and his casual slashes can split buildings and clouds:

And I am not sure how Sandman's consistency holds up to Ichigo's slashes and Getsugas given that they are empowered with his spirit energy.

It would probably just glass the parts it touches. Won't be that damaging since its AoE doesn't seem to be that much.

3.If Sandman manages to end up surrounding Ichigo, despite his speed he could give him the same treatment as he did to Byakuya's Sebonzakura in which he deflected a thousand blades with his speed and skill.

I hate to use the same counter. But what if Sandman decides to turn into a sandstorm spanning the whole battlefield to choke Ichigo out?

4. If Sandman doesn't go down, Ichigo can just keep him at bay until Luffy deals with Weather Wizard or help him so that they can focus on Sandman.

Luffy isn't taking down the WIzard.

1. Using his speed, ichigo should be able to avid WW's main attacks, and tank them should he get by them.

WW's tornados and blizzards have a lot of AoE so I doubt that. And I doubt he can tank that many lightning strikes unharmed. Plus WW's ice would stop him.

2. Then the main strategy would be countering and overpowering his attacks with either Getsuga Tensho or Jujisho and then gaining on WW from there.

WW could probably just blast projectiles away with his own attacks.

3. Once he gets close enough, using his sword he should be able to take out WW decisively

Then WW flash freezes him.

Team Strategy: Versatile Villainy

Since I don't want to stretch this post too long I will just say how my team in a joint effort can beat yours.

First things first WW can summon a large tornado which suck up Ichigo, Luffy and Sandman as well as huge chunks of the battlefield. From inside the tornado Sandman will use all the excess sand and turn them into simple cutting sandstone cutting weapons. Then my team just waits till yours gets sliced up.

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#38 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by Streak619 (7987 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice openers, T4V

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#41 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Okay Got this up. Sorry for not responding to your previous bumps i have been working on this and other posts that I am due, but here we go!

Counters & Strategy II: Luffy & Ichigo vs Weather Wizard & Sandman

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"I'd never lose to the likes of you! I will protect everything!"

Foreword:

While this has been a weird matchup, it has been a fun debate, at least from my side. I hope you feel the same. Also appreciate your being a sport about my time. The spammer and school kept me from going all out to finish these. That being said let's g o ahead and finish these no? Win or Lose, had a great time going up against one of my favorite viners!

Counters II: Versus Weather Wizard

I don't think that is enough. In the scans it looks like the ice user was just making it cold enough to make Luffy sleepy, meanwhile Weather Wizard stopped Johnny Quick with absolute zero winds. Which is just another level of cold, the same level Captain Cold uses to slow down the Flash.

I see, well despite that Luffy was even capable of fighting while being severely affected by Aokiji's Hie Hie No Mi, The Ice Devil Fruit in Chapter 321:

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And that was a vastly inferior version of Luffy who had not developed Gear 2nd or Haki. With those three things now in his arsenal he can use Gear 2nd to heat his body allowing his already good resistance to increase along with his speed. In addition his Observation Haki gives him a sense of precognition that will alert him to WW's blizzard attack thereby allowing him to dodge and move aerially, or out of the way laterally.

Weather Wizard is much more well versed in using blizzards than heatstrokes if that is what you are basing this claim on. He can casually create storms that blanket an entire section of a city in ice. I doubt Ichigo could dodge that.

Now I don't mean to lowball but isn't that a Pre-Crisis feat? The art-style and the issue 110 it mentions are from the 1959 run of the Flash. I did not realize that you were using those as well. If we were, then nbd I will still try and counter anyway. Since you say it can blanket a section of a city, I will also use a city related speed feat of Ichigo's:

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Chapter 399: Deicide

Here we see Ichigo not only react to, but block and counter attack to Gin's Bankai which can span over 13 km or about 8 miles. For reference a mile is about 20 blocks long. I am not sure how large that blizzard covers but Ichigo who is much faster than this feat currently should not only be able to react but also dodge the attack either laterally or aerially.

Impressive. However WW can blast even the Man of Steel away.

And force Aquaman to dodge

Both impressive feats, but isn't Aquaman an aquatic based character who would have more of a weakness to lightning? In addition Luffy and Ichigo should still be able to tank it and if need be, Ichigo can just dodge or counter attack with his Getsuga Jujisho, as also shown in my opener that not only overpowered that same lightning but was also still more than powerful enough to dismember Candice after the attack.

Maybe. But if he has to constantly warn Ichigo then their reaction speed would be damaged.

But wouldn't that only be if they were in danger of the fog? Which IIRC you were even unsure WW would use in battle. Besides I don't see what is stopping Luffy or Ichigo from dissipating the fog with either an energy slash/Getsuga from Ichigo or Luffy using his Gomu Gomu Ballon to suck in the air and expel it with great speed and force. Besides Observation Haki's warning should be more than enough time for both of them to react and dodge or block. For example Luffy's precog and reactions were fast enough to not only sense Mihawk's Counter attack, but stop his own arms mid Jet Bazooka in Chapter 561:

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What proof is there that they can survive the heat? It was melting metal after all.

I think proof that they can tank and even no-sell lightning attack, Luffy even over 60 million volts is more than enough to show that they can take the heat from WW's heatwaves. For reference metal has a melting point of 2500-3000 degrees Farenheit. Meanwhile an average natural lightning bolt when striking produces heat upwards of 54,000 degrees farenheit. And Luffy and Ichigo both took amped lightning strikes already shown in my opener and posts so far.

Powerful enough to overpower the Flash.

Now that third scan shows the lightning strike that knocks the Flash off balance and then he gets overpowered no? I think Ichigo who can vaporize small mountains with singular sword swings:

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Chapter 418

That should be enough to split the wind and stop the attack as well. With that they should be able to not only deal with the storms but also be able to tank whatever else is thrown at them as well.

And the Flash only escaped by phasing through a car. Now Weather Wizard claims that he is being amped here because he claims that he needs the wand but his son does not, but I doubt that considering the fact that he doesn't actually need the wand.

And of course composite WW wouldn't have those mental blocks because in the N52 he becomes a metahuman.

That is impressive as well. That is good as it negates a strategy I would have gone for by taking away the wand.

Considered he can also make rain clouds from above, I would say he can make it as high as the clouds. He can also immbolize the Flash with his rain (while the Flash was still a noob).

But this does not tell me how high he can make them. Plus this cloud does not seem that large and we are not battling in an enclosed space like this. It won't be that easy for this immobilization to happen. Plus Ichigo and Luffy should be greater in physical strength than the Flash at least in lifting and especially more than a newbie Flash. This is due to that Luffy can, with no leverage can push apart two large buildings and demolish the entire terrace:

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And as for Ichigo one of his best strength feats is when he destroys the dome of Yhwach's palace with a casual strike:

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Chapter 676

So with their given physicals they should be more than okay to deal with whatever WW throws at them and more, along with counterattacking to eventually put him down.

Counters II: Versus Sandman:

It's harder than you think. See from what I gather Logia users become their element and haki makes it so te element is treated as their body. But for Sandman, he is only one grain of sand controlling all the others. So in order for the haki to work you would have to directly attack his queen bee sand.

Oh I see, that does make it more difficult. however one of Luffy's Gatling attacks should be more than capable of hitting that Queen bee particle They are extremely fast and hit multiple areas hard:

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Using his blood, he is able to absolutely wreck Crocodile, the Sand Logia user, this is a pre-Haki feat.

Another one is how he causes massive damage to Noah a colossal ship during the Fishman Island Saga:

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For reference this is how Noah compares to Fishman Island, a country holding 5 million people:

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And Luffy causes massive damage to the ship. In addition Luffy's strikes should still hurt Sandman despite the Queen Bee particle. Haki treats the Logia parts of the body as still the real body of the user as we discussed before:

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As seen here when Vergo uses his Haki agaisnt Smoker another Logia of Smoke. As such even if Luffy does not immediately hit the Queen Bee particle, Sandman should still more than feel his Haki enhanced Blows, f which one too many could put him down for the count. In addition Luffy can also aim for his head which the particle seems to be and knock him out that way.

Thought Luffy was weak against sea water (and we are at a beach)? Regardless Sandman has a whole beach worth of regen so a little water won't stop him (especially considering he can just turn into sandstone to negate the effects).

Devil Fruit users like Luffy are weakened when they are submerged in water, so being doused in it or rainfall does not affect them in the way that you think. A prime example of this is how he fights Crocodile in the Marineford Arc:

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In the top center panel he coats his body in water to allow himself to strike Crocodile pre-Haki. And as far as the Sandstone, that is fine, it gives Luffy an easier target to hit and once Sandman feels those blows he isn't recovering quickly imo.

Counters II: Luffy's Battle

Cool. but unless Luffy lucks out and attacks his queen bee particle, his physical attacks would just go right through Sandman.

Not with the way Haki works or if he coats himself in water. By armament haki bypassing that intangibility, Luffy can actually do some significant damage to Sandman right off the bat. And if anything Gatling would hit all parts of the body, including the head Luffy should more than definitely be able to hit the Queen Particle either way.

Can he dodge Sandman suffocating him with a sandstorm which would cover the entire battlefield?

Seeing as how he can fly above large building and the city of Dressrosa in Gear 4th. I would say that he can:

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Which would go right through Sandman and be useless.

Would it really be that useless, if the attack completely smashes Sandman and more that likely hitting the Queen Bee article in his head? In addition I have to stress again that Haki bypasses intangibility and treats the sand as if it were Sandman's true physical body.

If Luffy were to get in close WW would blow him away or freeze him. WW is peak human when it comes to physicals though so not impressive for the tier

Where as Luffy is Superhuman in physicals and can blitz Hypersonic-Massively Hypersonic characters. So WW would likely have trouble keeping and reacting to him, especially with ichigo in the mix as well.

Well WW does fight the Flash so I find that unlikely. Here you can see him nearly tag a running Flash multiple times (and Flash is many times faster than you).

Yes the Flash is faster than my team, but that scan doesn't really help your case. He doesn't seem to hit Flash once in that scan. And gets blitzed right after it even looks like. He doesn't seem to be able to react to the Flash counterattacking. How well will he do against Luffy?

Counters II: Ichigo's Battle

Sandman doesn't turn into sand. He is sand.

But that still doesn't really stop Ichigo from noticing his abilities either way right? That was the point I was trying to get across there.

It would probably just glass the parts it touches. Won't be that damaging since its AoE doesn't seem to be that much.

Ichigo's casual Getsuga's have AOE that destroys domes this large:

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And how would Sandman deal with this if Ichigo spammed them or coated his blade with Getsuga Tenshou and gave Sandman teh Sebonzakura treatment:

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Chapter 163

I hate to use the same counter. But what if Sandman decides to turn into a sandstorm spanning the whole battlefield to choke Ichigo out?

No sarcasm, so do I, but Ichigo can just fly. In fact he does it much easier than Luffy can.

Luffy isn't taking down the WIzard.

Why not exactly? Luffy has the superior physicals and the means to deal with anything the Wizard throws at him. Plus Armament and Observation Haki give him a precog, striking and durability boost to help him out even further.

WW's tornados and blizzards have a lot of AoE so I doubt that. And I doubt he can tank that many lightning strikes unharmed. Plus WW's ice would stop him.

Based off our mutual feats, Ichigo should have the superior reactions and speed along with distance covering of multiple city blocks, miles even to deal with WW aoe, plus his natural "flight/fighting on air" helps him as well. He doesn't have to tank all the lightning strikes, he isa casual lightning timer he can dodge them.

WW could probably just blast projectiles away with his own attacks.

How exactly? I have shown Ichigo cutting through clouds, buildings, and even lightning. Has WW repelled anything like Ichigo's strikes before? Can he overpower them?

Then WW flash freezes him.

You haven't shown him flash-freezing anyone yet have you? Or did I miss that? And is he fast enough to react to Ichigo blitzing him. He doesn't really mess around.

Conclusion: Final Thoughts

First things first WW can summon a large tornado which suck up Ichigo, Luffy and Sandman as well as huge chunks of the battlefield. From inside the tornado Sandman will use all the excess sand and turn them into simple cutting sandstone cutting weapons. Then my team just waits till yours gets sliced up.

His tornadoes don't seem as large as that can stop Luffy and Ichigo dodging them. Plus Observation Haki can warn Luffy of this and tehy can react accordingly. Plus wouldn't a tornado just blow Sandman apart? My team has the way to dodge this just fine, and proceed to counterattack.

Overall I believe my duo wins due to a few key factors:

  • Superior Overall Physicals
  • Means to bypass Intangibility
  • The Means to deal with the versatility of both teams.
  • Luffy's Haki being a deciding factor in the battle.

Win or lose it has been really fun debating you! I can't wait to see how this turns out. Looking forward to your closer!

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#45 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Btw, I said I was going to use composite WW at post 3.

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#46 Posted by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Gotcha I thought that meant PostCrisis/post flashpoint. But that’s cool too. No big deal.

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#47 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Oh, I should have specifed main continuity full composite then. Btw, was that your closer?

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#48 Edited by Darthjhawk (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Yeah I’m done. It wasn’t as in-depth as I’d like but I’m behind on matches so I’m just doing as many as I can tan

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#49 Posted by MiracleComeBack (2194 posts) - - Show Bio

very weird interesting match up

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#50 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18023 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Will try to get my closer up soon as well.