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#1 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

New 52 Wonder Woman: The God of War

Represented By - @lowlaville

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VS

New 52 Superman: The Man of Steel

Represented By - @lvenger

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Premise: The Break Up

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I've spoiler blocked this so you don't have to read it if you readers/Cliana shippers don't want to :P

Clark waited in Prypiat, just outside the wasted nuclear powerplant of Chernobly for Diana's arrival. He was dreading this moment and had been ever since he'd come to this decision but his mind was made up. There was no going back now. Soon enough, Diana arrived to hear what Clark wanted to talk about. "What is it Clark?" she asked. "Why do you have such a sombre look on your face?" Clark sighed and, despite the bad feeling he had, went through with what he had to say.

"Diana, over the last few months, things just haven't been the way I thought they would be. When we first kissed in Washington, I was lonely, misguided and we'd just fought David Graves. We weren't in the right state of mind when we 'connected.' And I don't know if we even did that." He paused, registering the horror on Diana's face. "I know we seemed to grow deeper and deeper in love but it wasn't for the right reasons. The more I've thought about it, the more our relationship seems trivial and inconsequential. We're teammates, heroes and before this, we were friends. I have liked getting to know you more but as I have learned more about you, I've seen that you aren't the woman I want to spend the rest of my life with romantically. We're too different and hold different values and approaches to life. And I know you killed Dr. Psycho last week." Clark stared at Diana accusingly. "You've mentioned that you don't have any problems killing your foes and I should have seen sooner that you were willing to back it up. This isn't the way to be an example to the world Diana, we're supposed to be better than that..."

Diana cut in angrily "I've listened to what sounds like mind controlled babble for long enough so don't I have a chance to say something now? Good, because I've realised that my 'feelings' for you were pathetic. A simpering manchild who'd rather slap criminals on the back and let them get away than to take a stand and do what must be done. You're not the warrior I thought you were, you're a coward who turns the other cheek to the worst of this world. And all you've done now is prove that to me. Why don't you go back to that **** Lois? I'm sure Mrs Brainiac would love to cosy up with you at night whilst you ignore the world's troubles." Clark felt his blood boil at Diana insulting his best friend and someone he'd loved before. For the right reasons. "Well at least I didn't go kissing Lois behind your back like you did with that jerk Orion! Super hearing Diana, remember?" "At least my family aren't dead and buried six feet under!" Diana retorted. A cold voice crept into Clark's head telepathically from an unknown source and before he knew it "At least my family aren't murderous rapists!"

Wonder Woman lunged at Superman but he dodged her first attack. This alien deserved nothing less than the cold taste of steel now. She yelled back through the tears "So this is it? This is how it ends?" Superman replied "This is how it had to end Diana."

Location: Prypiat/Chernobyl

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Conditions:

  • New 52 versions of Superman and Wonder Woman.
  • In character but seriously motivated to win by any means necessary.
  • Diana gets her standard gear; Lasso, bracelets, shield and any weapons she can summon with her gauntlets that she has done so before.
  • Superman gets NO sun amp or SuperDoom or whatever other power level increases there have been in the New 52.
  • Win by KO, Incapacitation, Surrender or Death.

Challenge A Viner Rules:

  • Do not start extra arguments, post unnecessary scans/videos or interfere in the debate itself in any way. If you wish to inform either of us on anything important or correct us on a point, send us a private message.
  • If any of the above is excessively broken, we may request a mod to assist.
  • Your vote should be decided based on the debating quality and abilities of the participants. Not necessarily on the characters they are representing.
  • A reason for your voting choice would be greatly appreciated too.
  • Regular posting/commenting is fine.
  • As always, may the best debater win.
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#2 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville It's up. Do you want me to change the conditions to Morals off so the combatants are more likely to go all out?

And you can post first if you want. It's late here in the UK and I doubt I'll be able to make an opener tonight. If you're too busy though, I'm more than willing to make it tomorrow.

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#3 Edited by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Everything looks good. Diana gets standard gear, right?

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#4 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Everything looks good. Diana gets standard gear, right?

Oh yes I'll edit that in. She can summon everything she's summoned so far in her own series and in Superman/Wonder Woman.

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#5 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@lowlaville It's up. Do you want me to change the conditions to Morals off so the combatants are more likely to go all out?

And you can post first if you want. It's late here in the UK and I doubt I'll be able to make an opener tonight. If you're too busy though, I'm more than willing to make it tomorrow.

Its 2 AM here so I doubt I'll be able to make a post.

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#7 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville: Why are you still up then lol? In any case, we'll see who wakes up first in the morning then and they can make the first post. So basically either one of us can open.

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#8 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: Didn't you read the rules. PM. You ARE intruding. These kind of posts is what ruined it for me on a previous cav with superman and goku...I don't mean any offense but delete your post.

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#9 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: Lowlaville is insistent that New 52 Wonder Woman>New 52 Superman so this is what the CAV is going to test.

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#10 Edited by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@lowlaville: Why are you still up then lol? In any case, we'll see who wakes up first in the morning then and they can make the first post. So basically either one of us can open.

Yeah, I'm basically going. Have a pleasent night. ^^

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#11 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@lowlaville Though you can change if you want to? TheDailyBagel's post does represent what many people on the battle forum will think of our CAV.

I might entertain you with a post crisis WW if New 52 proves weaker through the process of this CAV. How does that sound? I don't like giving up on a prospect just because of a major concensus. That actually compels me to try harder... lol I have no problem otherwise.

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#13 Posted by Thedailybagel (12572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@lowlaville Though you can change if you want to? TheDailyBagel's post does represent what many people on the battle forum will think of our CAV.

I might entertain you with a post crisis WW if New 52 proves weaker through the process of this CAV. How does that sound? I don't like giving up on a prospect just because of a major concensus. That actually compels me to try harder... lol I have no problem otherwise.

Well we'll see. You can come back to it tomorrow if you want.

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#15 Posted by DeathHero61 (18504 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude you picked the absolutely wrong person to debate against in terms of superman................let alone DC characters in general. Good luck, you will need it. tag me.

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#16 Posted by BlueBeetle1 (1331 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for voting please. Thanks.

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#17 Posted by BlueBeetle1 (1331 posts) - - Show Bio

THE FIGHT IS IN CHERNOBYL???? SERIOUSLY??? SHOULD I SAY WHY THATS A DUMB IDEA OR....??

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#18 Posted by reaverlation (25549 posts) - - Show Bio

...good luck...

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#19 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville: Well do you want to post first or shall I go?

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#20 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude you picked the absolutely wrong person to debate against in terms of superman................let alone DC characters in general. Good luck, you will need it. tag me.

He challanged me. lol And thanks. I'll do my best.

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#21 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@lowlaville: Well do you want to post first or shall I go?

Why don't you go ahead. I was actually about to, but since you are here, and I have around 30 scans I need to sort out in my images, you might as well just go ahead.

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#22 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@lowlaville: Well do you want to post first or shall I go?

Why don't you go ahead. I was actually about to, but since you are here, and I have around 30 scans I need to sort out in my images, you might as well just go ahead.

All right I'll go first then. Expect it up soon.

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#23 Edited by uugieboogie (13017 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville: Well since you graciously agreed to do this CAV with just New 52 Wonder Woman to start off with, I intend to show you why Current Diana is hopelessly outmatched against a far more powerful foe than her in this universe. A character with a new tin but the same lick of paint, just like New 52 Wonder Woman is. Everyone knows his origin, his powers and who he is so enough with my introduction, I'll demonstrate why New 52 Superman is more than a match for New 52 Wonder Woman.

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Strength

I'll begin by demonstrating Superman's obvious strength advantage over Wonder Woman. In the physical lifting, pushing and moving departments, Superman is undoubtedly Diana's better in this regard. And there are numerous feats to prove my point, even without going to his high tier ones.

He's easily held up a bridge in Swamp Thing #19 without fatigue or exertion on his part.

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Superman has also caught a falling airship with ease.

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He's thrown the Daily Planet like a bowling ball at a flame monster.

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In this flashback talk with Supergirl in Supergirl #3, we see Superman saving an airplane from disaster with just his sheer physical strength.

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And lastly for this section, here Superman lifts a Russian military submarine out of the depths of the ocean onto the surface of the sea. Military-class subs weigh thousands of tons (and the weight doubles if submerged underwater). According to Supes, the chambers were also lined with lead, and lead itself is pretty dense (11.36 grams/cm-cubed). So lifting this sub out of the water with ease is a real testament to Superman's physical strength.

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This is only the tip of the iceburg for Superman's physical strength feats too. There are plenty more and better ones from where this came from, I assure you. This demonstrates the clear strength edge Superman has over Wonder Woman and in a contest of muscle against muscle, Superman would be sure to quickly and clearly overpower Diana in that aspect of battle.

Striking Power

But of course, physical strength does not equal striking power. So I tend to separate the two for good measure. In any case, Superman has many feats to prove that he can hit harder than Diana and when his blows connect with her, they'll do far more damage than her hits will do to him.

In Justice League #3, Superman picks up a lorry and uses it as a baseball bat to send dozens and dozens of Parademons flying into the air. I didn't see Diana do anything like this in the Justice League: Origins arc.

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In his younger and weaker Jeans and T-Shirt days, Superman proved capable of knocking down a steel door in one kick. And to reemphasise, he's much, much stronger and more powerful in his current form.

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Superman has also hit his foes so hard that he can create an AOE shockwave fallout from his blows. Two instances when this has happened include him punching Xa-Du, a Kryptonian from the Phantom Zone with the same powers as he had (scan on the right) As well as when Superman punches a ship so hard to stop it from crashing into Metropolis that the shockwave from his punch shatters windows up and down the bay.

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He's hit a zombie Kryptonian Dragon/Snake thing hard enough to "topple a small mountain" which KOes the head of the beast.

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Again, I think that'll do for now. This is already better than most of Diana's striking feats and I haven't even gotten onto the good stuff yet. Hence, this part of my argument all but proves Superman's superior striking power over Diana, meaning that a few solid hits once Clark has had enough of her temper tantrums should be sufficient to KO or incapacitate her, let alone kill her if it came down to it.

Durability

There's a reason whenever people think of invulnerability to harm, Superman pops into their heads. As well as being able to dish out damage, Superman can take it in spades too. He's far more likely to be able to tank Diana's blows than Diana can his. Especially since he's been hit harder than she can. To clarify, I'll only focus on blunt force and piercing resistance feats as Diana has no way of using energy projection against Superman.

First up, here's H'El, an insane and uber powerful Kryptonian who passed through black stars in space amping his powers to even greater levels than Superman. He's stronger, faster and more versatile than Superman but his strength is all that matters for now. Here's H'El smacking Superman into orbit with a double fisted uppercut yet Superman isn't KOed by such potent force on that blow.

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And for comparison, here's how easily H'El brushed off Wonder Woman too.

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Secondly, Supergirl, a being who's around about Wonder Woman's physical level, as admitted by Diana herself, decked Superman straight through the Great Wall of China which is 5,500 miles long. But Superman was completely unaffected by that attack, both in terms of registering it and showing any signs of pain or damage from that attack. He was only trying to talk and reason with Supergirl the entire fight whilst she tried to beat him senseless over a misunderstanding.

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He's tanked blows from other heavy hitters like Orion too.

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And in Superman Unchained #1, he shields two astronauts from the full impact of a giant space station when it falls from space to the ground without taking damage himself.

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Lastly, he has tanked a direct kick from Wonder Woman whilst she was angry with Hal Jordan and in the full fury of battle but I suspect you're going to cite this one as a striking feat for Diana. In any case, on my end, it shows how well Superman can take Diana's attacks.

And that highlights a short showing of Superman's vast durability edge over Diana. Finally...

Combat Speed/Reflexes

As a man way faster than a speeding bullet, Superman outranks Current Diana by a milestone yet again IMO

He's casually caught a bullet in his Jeans and T-Shirt days.

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Superman has also moved as fast as lightning to intercept flaming blasts fired by a fire creature on buildings. Before you write this off as hyperbole, the narrator of the newspaper article was Clark Kent himself who wrote the story. So whilst it could have been hyperbole, no one knows better about how fast he can move than Superman himself. Hence why I use the feat.

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He caught a bullet fired at him by Eros just before it hit him in the chest.

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When fighting Psycho Pirate, Superman is able to fire off a blast of heat vision before Psycho Pirate can detect it coming with his telepathy. He notes "Guess you think quicker than I thought you did." Against Diana, Superman could easily pull off this or another action like a punch, a kick or a speedblitz before she can react to it.

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Finally, he's able to speedblitz Hal Jordan before he can even realise Superman is coming. And since the Pre New 52 Green Lantern history is still intact, Hal is capable of moving at supersonic speeds and reacting to Barry Allen.

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In summary, this concludes my opener for why I sustain that New 52 Superman outclasses New 52 Wonder Woman by a noticeable degree. I've shown how he's stronger, hits harder, is more durable and moves faster so far and I have yet to get into Superman's ranged versatility and tactical thinking in combat. Anyway your move mate, good luck :)

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#26 Edited by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Looking past your double post. lol Cool post, then let me begin my bout.

Wonder Woman

Daughter of Zeus and the current God of War, the Amazonian Princess Diana otherwise known as Wonder Women is among the strongest of Earth's elitie heroes. Today I take on this CAV to prove she doesn't just look good, but she is strong as well. And I intend to prove this against none other but Superman. We shall see if the iconic superhero has what it takes to survive the wrath of the God of War.

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Strength

Let's begin with more measly feats of strength. And I will follow your suit before countering some of your mediocre claims.

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Simple enough. Lifting and tossing a Van around.

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So, lifting the weight of a giant plane with a smile on her face. Seems legit.

Striking Strength

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- Knocked Kara not once, but twice.

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- Knocks down the doors of a kryptonion fortress capable of withstanding the best of Earthly power--- EXCEPT Wonder Woman that is.

Durability

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- Diana has no known weakness. I consider this a durability feat.

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- Healing Factor equal to or greater than Superman's own

Combat Speed/Reflexes

In this department, I should say Diana is Superman's superior. She has her trainings as a warrior starting a very young age, and she's displayed fighting prowess beyond Superman's own. I will show some later.

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- Beats a skilled young Amazon. This pre Ares training and pre God amps.

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- Even in her sleep, no one can sneak up on Diana.

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- Sniper like precision achieved, effortlessly. Notice Hades is located on a far off distance from her boat.

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- Matching swords with Hermes- the fastest God of Mount Olympus

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- Bullets? I think not.

That does it for this catagory. There's more but I don't want to post everything at once. This should get some points across. Now, to directly address some of your claims made in your intro.

I didn't see Diana do anything like this in the Justice League: Origins arc.

Quite the opposite, in the same issue, you see Diana overwhelming a group of para-demons, commanding praise for the feat from Superman himself.

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How you do is not relevant. What you do is. I've shown above Wonder Woman is perfectly capable of lifting a car, or a van even. Flipping it around at some demons should be no issue...unless you think Superman is superior by that feat, which sounds ridiculous, especially when both parties has strength feats to suggest a much higher potential.

Again, I think that'll do for now. This is already better than most of Diana's striking feats and I haven't even gotten onto the good stuff yet. Hence, this part of my argument all but proves Superman's superior striking power over Diana, meaning that a few solid hits once Clark has had enough of her temper tantrums should be sufficient to KO or incapacitate her, let alone kill her if it came down to it.

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This is a sundipped Superman.

Let me put it this way. Superman disagrees with you. He says Diana can do it, and I agree with him on this one, she's handled her own against Apollo in a past encounter. We should not forget how a pre sundipped Superman was slapped away by Apollo like a fly. In comparison, Diana had held her own.

And for comparison, here's how easily H'El brushed off Wonder Woman too.

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The immediate scan after the one you referred to.

You've clearly overlooked the fact that she had not but a scratch on her.

Secondly, Supergirl, a being who's around about Wonder Woman's physical level, as admitted by Diana herself, decked Superman straight through the Great Wall of China which is 5,500 miles long. But Superman was completely unaffected by that attack, both in terms of registering it and showing any signs of pain or damage from that attack. He was only trying to talk and reason with Supergirl the entire fight whilst she tried to beat him senseless over a misunderstanding.

You are forgetting. Diana has already handed it down and knocked out Kara. Pretty sure you know this already, here are the scans. And Kara admits WW is stronger.

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The scans may not be in order or in reverse order.

Lastly, he has tanked a direct kick from Wonder Woman whilst she was angry with Hal Jordan and in the full fury of battle but I suspect you're going to cite this one as a striking feat for Diana. In any case, on my end, it shows how well Superman can take Diana's attacks.

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Implying she has no difficulty kicking Superman around. She draws blood from Superman.

Superman has also moved as fast as lightning to intercept flaming blasts fired by a fire creature on buildings. Before you write this off as hyperbole, the narrator of the newspaper article was Clark Kent himself who wrote the story. So whilst it could have been hyperbole, no one knows better about how fast he can move than Superman himself. Hence why I use the feat.

- She's beaten Kara, who's handled herself against Flash. Not sure why you bother bringing "lightning speed" into the equation.

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Finally, he's able to speedblitz Hal Jordan before he can even realise Superman is coming. And since the Pre New 52 Green Lantern history is still intact, Hal is capable of moving at supersonic speeds and reacting to Barry Allen.

Not nearly as impressive as you may be thinking here. Diana has stomped Hal too you know.

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And this Diana stomped someone whos tagged Flash too. And if what you say is credible, this makes Diana as fast if not faster than Superman.

Anyway your move mate, good luck :)

And, your turn. Good luck as well. So far so good. :)

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#27 Posted by serrure (5896 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by z3ro180 (8778 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Dude you should tag me in I have a killer thing that will swing this in your direction.

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#30 Edited by TheBlondeGod (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm soo gonna wait for this to finish. This is pretty awesome. Anyways, tag me for voting too please of you don't mind. :D

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#31 Posted by BlueBeetle1 (1331 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: what comic book did the eros/superman feat happen in??? I dont remember that.

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#32 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@z3ro180 said:

@lvenger: Dude you should tag me in I have a killer thing that will swing this in your direction.

I will tag you but if your 'killer thing' has anything to do with Superman Unchained #8, I'd ask that you wait to do so. I'll be able to find the scans of the fight myself anyway. I have yet to read the issue myself (it blasted well didn't arrive today which is annoying) but once I do, I'll include some of the scans in my arguments.

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#33 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by BlueBeetle1 (1331 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by z3ro180 (8778 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: it got nouthing to do with that. The killer thing is that Wonder Woman's heels are two seasons old and that Supes can pull them off way better than she ever could.

*Drops Mike*

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#36 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville: Not bad, a decent opener. Let's see how it stands up to my scrutiny though...

Strength

Simple enough. Lifting and tossing a Van around.

So, lifting the weight of a giant plane with a smile on her face. Seems legit.

So your opening strength feats for your case are Wonder Woman lifting a van and a plane? The plane is decent enough but a van? Laughably unimpressive compared to Superman's weaker Jeans and T Shirt days. Clark was still capable of stopping trains and moving ships before he could even fly (Action Comics #0 for the first two and Action Comics #25 for the last one.)

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And even this pales in comparison to how casually Superman performs other strength feats. For example, after snagging several robots with his solar powered Mjolnir rip off, Superman easily tossed several of The Machine's robots around like ragdolls in Superman Unchained #7.

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Not to mention that Superman has lifted and torn apart helicopters with the greatest of ease to boot.

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Basically, I've seen no feats on your end that show Wonder Woman being remotely comparable to Superman in physical strength. There are 3 good ones from my Wonder Woman reading but they won't be enough to put her on Superman's strength level.

Striking Power

- Knocked Kara not once, but twice.

Whilst that's a good showing for Wonder Woman, Superman has overpowered Kara easily too.

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- Knocks down the doors of a kryptonion fortress capable of withstanding the best of Earthly power--- EXCEPT Wonder Woman that is.

I suppose it's decent for what it's worth on Diana's striking power but Xa-Du was able to rend open those doors too. And Superman overpowered him in battle so it's easy for me to claim that Superman can do the same thing. Again, I don't see sufficient proof that Diana's striking power will drastically turn the tide whenever she hits Superman. In contrast, you can't extend that claim to my case for Superman's striking power.

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  • Casually breaking a large chunk of ice.
  • Sends Doomsday into orbit with a single uppercut.
  • One shots a giant alien construction machine with ease.
  • Puts Shazam in his place in a single blow once he gets serious and stopped reasoning with Shazam.
  • Destroys some asteroids.

I still don't see evidence which points to Diana's striking power being nearly as impressive as Superman's. New 52 Wonder Woman at least...

Durability

Diana has no known weakness. I consider this a durability feat.

No known weakness does not equal immunity to physical harm. Thor also has no known weakness but he can still be KOed by beings that are as strong or stronger than him like Hulk or Thanos. Likewise, Diana can be hurt if her foe hits hard enough. Just like when The First Born KOed her on two occasions.

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Granted, I accept The First Born may be stronger than Superman but this does demonstrate sufficient physical force can KO Diana. She's taken damage from lesser beings before so I fail to see why Superman isn't putting her down with his greater striking power.

Healing Factor equal to or greater than Superman's own

I'd side on the equal to rather than greater than Superman's own. In your feat, Diana only got the chance to heal after Superman lifted the ship Doomsday and Diana were fighting on and scared Doomsday off. If it hadn't been for that, Doomsday would have made Diana the bride of Hades once again. Anyway, Superman has also healed from damage like red sun bullets lodged in his skin that were healed later on in a battle he was in during Superman Unchained #4.

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Moreover, I have yet to glance upon greater durability on Diana's part from damage that Superman hasn't exceeded. For instance, in Superman Unchained #3, the more powerful Wraith booted Superman across Utah into the next state and brought The Needles mountains down on Superman's head. Yet all that did was make Superman ticked off. Unless you can prove Diana can hit harder than that, I see no reason why Superman will be falling to her hits any time soon.

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Also, Clark has tanked blows from Parasite who was feeding off his own power as well as the lifeforce of the nearby bystanders. That hit sent him clean through to the bottom of a parking lot but he shrugs it off.

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He's withstood hits from Mongul who has always been a top tier brick in most of his incarnations in DC, albeit at different power levels. But New 52 Mongul is more than strong enough to give Superman a good fight.

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Not to mention getting a mace to the face by Straith of The Pax Galactica which sent him flying off the moon halfway back to Earth again.

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All in all, I've shown just how much blunt punishment Superman can take and it's more than Diana can dish out IMO.

Combat Speed/Reflexes

- Beats a skilled young Amazon. This pre Ares training and pre God amps.

This is a skill feat, not a speed feat. Whilst I will immediately concede that Diana is by far more skilled than Superman, I think you're confusing this as a speed feat. Unless you plan to bring skill up later, I don't see the place of this feat in Diana's combat speed.

- Sniper like precision achieved, effortlessly. Notice Hades is located on a far off distance from her boat.

Definitely a good precision feat, but it's performed with a gun, of which Diana does not have here nor has she summoned before with her gauntlets.

- Matching swords with Hermes- the fastest God of Mount Olympus

Whilst I agree matching Hermes in speed is an impressive speed feat, we have no clear idea how fast Hermes is. Is he supersonic, hypersonic, lightspeed? Azzarello doesn't care for precise feats in his writing and whilst this shows Diana's speed in combat, it doesn't show how fast she is exactly. In contrast, Superman has several explict combat speed showings against foes, for example against Wraith, who's more powerful than Superman (Superman did have a Wraithonite ring that weakened him though, I'll mention that context) and Paraiste who leeched off Superman's powers.

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Bullets? I think not.

I'll give you credit that you've found some nice multi bullet feats but Superman has matched those feats with ease before.

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I count about 10 or 12 bullets that Superman caught there.

Quite the opposite, in the same issue, you see Diana overwhelming a group of para-demons, commanding praise for the feat from Superman himself. How you do is not relevant. What you do is.

Fair enough, that is an appropriate counter to my point tbh.

Let me put it this way. Superman disagrees with you. He says Diana can do it, and I agree with him on this one, she's handled her own against Apollo in a past encounter. We should not forget how a pre sundipped Superman was slapped away by Apollo like a fly. In comparison, Diana had held her own.

Heh this one made me chuckle. You're using Superman's unsubstantiated statement to prove Diana can handle Apollo on her own? Let's take a look at that past encounter shall we?

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Doesn't look like she handled Apollo on her own, looks more like Apollo handled Wonder Woman with a one shot punch to take her out.

You are forgetting. Diana has already handed it down and knocked out Kara. Pretty sure you know this already, here are the scans. And Kara admits WW is stronger.

Whilst I don't disagree with your point that Wonder Woman>Kara, the same claim applies to Superman too. In Superman #5, an alien nanite version of Superman fought Supergirl and utterly humiliated her. Even when Superman freed himself from its control, it still owned Kara.

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In contrast, when Superman showed up, he owned the nanite clone handily.

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Implying she has no difficulty kicking Superman around. She draws blood from Superman.

She may be able to draw some blood to Superman but Superman can do worse than draw blood from Diana with his hits.

- She's beaten Kara, who's handled herself against Flash. Not sure why you bother bringing "lightning speed" into the equation.

You omit the context that Kara was pushing herself faster than she'd ever moved before and Barry was deliberately holding back against her. Both due to his morals and Superman telling Barry not to hurt Kara. If Barry hadn't been holding back, he'd have stomped Kara just as he would Superman or Wonder Woman.

Not nearly as impressive as you may be thinking here. Diana has stomped Hal too you know.

Likewise, Superman has owned Hal's constructs in The New 52 too. He was the first to break them in canon now.

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This isn't actually too much of a big post, it's just finding the right scans that took so long. I'll add in one more section before I finish this post.

Ranged Energy Projection

Unlike Diana, Superman has far more potent options from attacking at range. Like his heat vision for example.

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  • Blasts through a large rock into smithereens that Helspont threw at him telekinetically.
  • Overpowers the heat vision of the weaker nanite Superman whose heat vision caused Kara to cry out in pain.
  • Easily melts through a large battleship that Orion was about to throw at Superman as well as making Orion remark on how it is.
  • Incinerates Doomsday in one powerful heat vision blast. DD does heal and come back but Superman was the first one to actually harm Doomsday out of everyone on DC Earth.

Well that's the second post done. Though your argument structure is decent and some of your points are on the money, I haven't seen any evidence that Wonder Woman is superior to Superman in any areas outside of fighting skill and tactical thinking nor comparable in any attributes except for maybe combat speed. It'll be an uphill battle for Diana all the way against a far more powerful opponent and I don't see how she can hope to put him down. But that's where your job is I guess, to see if you can prove me wrong :P Your turn.

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#37 Edited by Xenonyte (275 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry to intrude but this battle looks extremely enticing. Please tag me for voting guys @lvenger@lowlaville. Much appreciated.

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#38 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Oh this is just beginning. I do like your style. You can expect me to have edited this reply by tomorrow. The opener was done primarily from scans I had collected but not necessarily uploaded and used before. Thus, it should be easier from here on out. I just need a few more with Orion and Brainiac saga scans to complete the arsenal... or maybe more depending on how you take this. :)

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#39 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@xenonyte: Your post wasn't an intrusion at all, you weren't interfering in the debate and normal comments saying that you're interested in the match up and you want to be tagged for votes is fine. Will do.

@lvenger: Oh this is just beginning. I do like your style. You can expect me to have edited this reply by tomorrow. The opener was done primarily from scans I had collected but not necessarily uploaded and used before. Thus, it should be easier from here on out. I just need a few more with Orion and Brainiac saga scans to complete the arsenal... or maybe more depending on how you take this. :)

So it sounds like you're saving them to hard drive? I do a mixture of that as well as perusing the New 52 respect thread on here. And take your time, I won't be able to respond until tomorrow night I'm afraid so you have plenty of time to make your post.

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#40 Edited by Kingant27 (16662 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman fans>WW fans, you are already at a disadvantage; never mind the lack of credit she is getting New-52, this an uphill battle for you @lowlaville, good luck to both of you.

Also I'm surprised the whole bench pressing the Earth wasn't used straight away, and some up the more recent uber feats; however I'm sure that will be shown in the rebuild.

Tag me for voting please.

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#41 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman fans>WW fans, you are already at a disadvantage; never mind the lack of credit she is getting New-52, this an uphill battle for you @lowlaville, good luck to both of you, and tag me for voting please.

Heh. Thanks.

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#42 Posted by tensor (8358 posts) - - Show Bio

Some Good debates on both sides.I like it.

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#43 Posted by iDude (1148 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Edited by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

Strength

So your opening strength feats for your case are Wonder Woman lifting a van and a plane? The plane is decent enough but a van? Laughably unimpressive compared to Superman's weaker Jeans and T Shirt days. Clark was still capable of stopping trains and moving ships before he could even fly (Action Comics #0 for the first two and Action Comics #25 for the last one.)

I did say it was measly. lol You didn't actually think that was the best she can do? You underestimate Diana too much. She beats Kryptonians with similar statistics as Superman's own. It don't matter all that much if she lacks miscelleneous facts such as stopping a train or lifting subs out of the water. She's shown many times she is capable of doing much the same things as Superman. There's one notable:

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Stops an aircraft carrier that was swept away by a Tsunami along with Superman.

Striking Strength

I still don't see evidence which points to Diana's striking power being nearly as impressive as Superman's. New 52 Wonder Woman at least...

Knocking back Kara and drawing blood from Superman with a single kick suffices as evidence. And she was not even directing her rage at Superman then. Rather, she was pissed off at Hal Jordon. If you want striking feats, there are plenty.

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Scores the first descisive blow on Darkseid. After cutting through the Omega Beam, she plunges her sword into his eye, blinding him. Gets no better than this.

Meanwhile, Superman gets hit/tagged and knocked out by the Omega Beam

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This at the very least proves a couple of things

  • Superman is not as fast as you claim he is
  • Superman did absolutely nothing notable against Darkseid.
  • Diana can deal major damage to Superman using her sword

This suffices to say just how strong Diana is in contrast. Superman was anything but helpless against Darkseid. At the very least, her striking strength is not as low as you might assume. Its much greater.

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Draws blood from Aquaman. If that doesn't suffice, draws blood from Superman and knocks out Kara twice.

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- Deflects Zod's heat vision back on him.
- Gives Faora a bad case of sunburn
- Draws blood from Zod

Here, Zod and Faora are sun charged, not sundipped.

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If you read what Superman says, "I'm going to feel that for a while". He is referring to the kick he suffered at the foot of Diana... talk about potency, no way Diana is not hurting Kal-El.

You see enough of this and a picture begins to form. Diana has absolutely no trouble with Superman+ class foes. Here's where I'd like to say she stomps Kryptonians day and night.

Durability

- Despite your beliefs, having no weakness accounts to a lot. You want proof?

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Superman and Cyborg gets shredded by a storm of magic teeth. Diana is all but without a scratch. Her sword is magical. If she swings it at Superman, theres no way he is not feeling it. This has been proven against Faora, where Diana practically burns her skin from the heat the sword had absorbed from Zod's heat vision.

Kryptonions can sustain heat, but Faora's skin burnt just from coming into contact with the sword + heat.

Unless you can prove Diana can hit harder than that, I see no reason why Superman will be falling to her hits any time soon.

Aren't you forgetting something? Diana has knocked back and drawn blood from Superman on a prior occasion, while not even directing her rage at him.

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Doesn't that qualify as Superman falling to her hits? There's every bit of evidence she has superiority in the fighting department, this may be a compiment to her skill as a warrior, but Zod and Faora also had military fighting backgrounds. Or maybe you actually forgot how Diana carried around Superman's practical dead weight in the fight against Zod and Faora? Diana overpowered and compelled the two to make a strategic retreat.

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Scans are in reverse order.

He's withstood hits from Mongul who has always been a top tier brick in most of his incarnations in DC, albeit at different power levels. But New 52 Mongul is more than strong enough to give Superman a good fight.

Diana has sustained hits from Mongul as well, and if I may add, with an idle notion.

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Not to mention getting a mace to the face by Straith of The Pax Galactica which sent him flying off the moon halfway back to Earth again.

I remember Superman suffering a concussion from being thrown to the moon (not from Earth). Or a blast from Helspont... and he gets knocked out straight. Same deal as darkseid's Omega beam.

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Speed

A pre sundipped amped Superman got slapped around by Apollo like a fly. Diana held her own against this guy much longer than Clark did.

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Diana's particular instance is better because she did not get swatted like a fly, with one hand safely tucked in his pocket, while smiling. There's a vast difference.

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This is pre god of war. It's not like Diana got a scratch from this encounter.....just mud I suppose.

Hermes is the fastest god by far. After recieving the gift of flightm she's done such a thing as blitz the first born. And, diana has held her own in terms of combat speed with Hermes.

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First born is a monster capable of slugging it out with Orion who's given Superman trouble in the past and beaten him. Diana has gone and beaten if inot subdued First Born. This makes Diana very capable in terms of speed versus an opponent of Superman'c calibur.

Combat Speed/Reflexes

I'm mainly going to cite Diana's combative reflexes she's displayed in her past encounters. As Diana would say:

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Here's where I cite Diana's fighting skills, and she's proved this against many of the likes of Darkseid, Zod, Faora, Kara and Aquaman. She has the skills in all manners of fighting to deliver her opponents a good beating. In the above instance, Diana does it while teaching Kara a valuable lesson of combat. Simple minded brute strength is not going to have its way against her, not with a laso that can subdue Superman and a sword that can easily cut into Superman's skin.

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If you want another example, Wonder Woman's agility and battle prowess against Cheetah suffices to say Superman will not be having his way with Diana. While Cheetah tagged and cursed Superman, she also tagged and injured flash in the process. In the instance again, Diana survives far longer than any of the two did.

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And this is, while holding back. All of her feats to this point pretty much are.

You omit the context that Kara was pushing herself faster than she'd ever moved before and Barry was deliberately holding back against her. Both due to his morals and Superman telling Barry not to hurt Kara. If Barry hadn't been holding back, he'd have stomped Kara just as he would Superman or Wonder Woman.

Well, thats true. Barry was holding back, but he was compelled to get serious because Kara was catching up to him and the second lag of instruction given to him was exactly that Barry don't hold back. And if he was, there was likely no way he'd have come out of the clash unharmed.

Now against your cited energy projection feats.....here are some facts you might want to get down on.

- Diana reflects/deflects or just plain defend against heat vision or energy projections easily.

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This should be enough to give you a picture. Energy projection is the last thing Diana has on her mind whether charging with her sword primed or simply lunging forward. At the very least, if Diana has survived a nuke point blank in better shape than Superman did, that would mean she has all it takes to survive any assault of that heat vision of his.

- Orion's remark, huh? I don't remember it so much as putting a scratch on Orion. Apart from being drenched in molten steel, Orion suffered nothing I noticed.

Darkseid's Omega beam which you see Diana deflecting and later cutting with her sword [panel I showed in striking feat catagory] has busted a planet. Superman's heat vision is nowhere near this potent.

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Well that's the second post done. Though your argument structure is decent and some of your points are on the money, I haven't seen any evidence that Wonder Woman is superior to Superman in any areas outside of fighting skill and tactical thinking nor comparable in any attributes except for maybe combat speed. It'll be an uphill battle for Diana all the way against a far more powerful opponent and I don't see how she can hope to put him down. But that's where your job is I guess, to see if you can prove me wrong :P Your turn.

I've just started with the better stuff. I intend to end this with a 3rd post. Not nearly enough on your part to get me worried just yet. :p Diana has what it takes to take and deal back anything Superman has to offer. As you say, Diana is vastly superior when it comes to combat. This is all the edge that she's displayed time and again and would give Wonder Woman the victory.

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#45 Posted by Hegemon (11509 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Letting you know I'm done with the second post. I'll only do a 3rd so we may go for voting after my next possible post, if you don't have a problem with it.

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#46 Edited by dorukesin (7421 posts) - - Show Bio

sweet tag me for the votes

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#47 Posted by johnfrank120 (6702 posts) - - Show Bio

Please tag me for votes.

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#48 Posted by unBREAKable_Fs4 (4316 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for votes please

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#49 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Letting you know I'm done with the second post. I'll only do a 3rd so we may go for voting after my next possible post, if you don't have a problem with it.

So you want to go to voting after your third post? Fair enough, that's fine by me. I was hoping to use some Superman Unchained #8 feats for this debate but my copy of that issue hasn't arrived in the blasted post yet. Count yourself lucky though because from what I hear, the fight in the issue was a very good showing for Superman and you might have had even more trouble than you already do :P

I've been out helping at Fresher's Fair all day but I'll try and get a post up tonight.

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#50 Posted by BullPR (5663 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Interesting CaV

Please tag me for the vote. Thanks.